Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: investigator on February 09, 2004, 01:38:10 AM

Title: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: investigator on February 09, 2004, 01:38:10 AM
What sort of a man was he? And how were his relations with Tsar Nicholas II.  In the movie Anastasia: the mystery of anna it was shown that Cyril met Anna Anderson.  Is this true?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Jane on February 11, 2004, 11:56:58 AM
One interesting take on Kirill Vladimirovich is that of his sister-in-law, Queen Marie of Romania.  She described Kirill as "The Marble Man"--very reserved and non-demonstrative.  Most of what I've read about him seems to be very negative; his mother was intensely ambitious on behalf of her three sons, and he appears to have been disdained by surviving Romanovs for not only flying a red flag atop his palace after the February/March Revolution, but his Imperial pretensions after he and his wife fled Russia.  One book you may wish to read is "A Fatal Passion" about his wife, Ducky.  It certainly is a "pro-Kirill" viewpoint.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: James Hogland on February 13, 2004, 02:17:41 PM
Not only did Cyril fly the red flag over his palace but betrayed the tsar and tsarina in other ways also for which he was disdained by other members of the family and monarchists after the war. As commander of the Garde Equipage, the marines guarding the Alexander Palace at the time of the revolution, he and they were the almost sole protectors of the tsarina and her children who were ill with the measles. Instead of being true to the family and his oath, Cyril ordered the marines to march away from the palace and march to Petrograd, leaving the palace and family virtually unguarded. In Petrograd Cyril offered the services of the marines to the new provisional government and himself took an oath of allegiance to the new government. Probably he was playing politics, hoping that the Constituent Assembly would restore the monarchy with him as emperor, since Nicholas had taken himself and Alexsei out of the running, and Michael had disassociated himself with it.
These actions together with his questionable marriage to Victoria Melita were the basis for supporters of the monarchy being cool to his claims to the throne after war. He, and his brothers, were also notorious rakes, drinkers and womanizers. Cyril's career in the navy had not been stellar either.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: 3710 on February 25, 2004, 08:48:23 AM
James, a word in defence of Cyril's brother Andrei: why do you call him a womaniser? Mathilda Kshessinkaia would have disagreed -  they have been together since his mid 20s. The only refference of his womanising I read about was in Lidia Kiusht memories( almost forgotten ballerina) -she mentioned he kept on asking her out and she kept on turning him down preferring a (simple) officer before he met brilliant Mathilda! Not a great record.
Galina
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Louise on February 25, 2004, 09:59:00 AM
I believe the Vadlimirovitch brother that is referred to as the "womanizer" would be Boris. Boris also made an attempt in asking the Tsar and Tsarina for Olga's hand in marriage. Alexandra had unkind words regarding Boris, and of course nothing became of his attempt

Louise
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Jane on February 25, 2004, 03:10:20 PM
Galina, I agree with you that GD Boris definitely seemed to be the biggest womaniser of the sons of Grand Duke Vladimir, but it seems to me GD Andrei must have been more devoted to fidelity than Kschessinska--wasn't she also involved with GD Sergei Mikhailovich throughout much of the same period she was involved with Andrei? My understanding is that she was never sure which of them had fathered her son.
Apologies to all for getting slightly off-topic.  ;)

Jane
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Sushismom on February 25, 2004, 04:48:01 PM
My opinion of him is based on his actions as have been recorded in most books about the Imperial Family. I disagree with much of what he did during the initial phase of the Revolution. Afterwards, though, I felt he was a person to be pitied for the most part.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David on February 25, 2004, 07:28:40 PM
According to at least one biography I read, Cyril was a bit of womanizer. Alledgedly, shortly before Duckys death in the 1930s, she had a something of a nervous breakdown and seemed oddly estranged emotionally from the Marble Man. I have to confess that Ive never been much impressed by the Vladimirichis. GD Vladimir was a major blowhard- and his sons werent much better. Boris was a spoiled and pathetic bon vivant, Cyril was a failed naval officer and a disloyal gardesman. Only Andrei comes out of that gaggle with a shard of intelligence, though he too was drawn to the gaming tables.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Jane on February 26, 2004, 10:42:35 AM
Sushismom, I think you've hit the nail on the head.  I agree with you that Kirill was a pathetic figure after the Revolution.  The manner in which he and Ducky so desperately clung to the past, their pretensions, etc.  I recall reading about an incident where someone had paid a visit to St. Brissac, and wrote a 'thank you' note to Kirill and Ducky.  Ducky's secretary sent back a very snooty response along the lines of "One does not thank Their Majesties for a nice time, one thanks them for their graciousness."  A pat example that breeding does not necessarily beget good manners.

Like David, I have never been favorably inclined towards the Vladimirovichi, based on all that I've read about them.  Further, all I have read about his few living descendants and their pretensions, in my very humble opinion, illustrates the old axiom that "the apple never falls far from the tree."

Jane
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Jackswife on March 01, 2004, 03:41:08 PM
 I wonder if any of you here can shed some light on Grand Duchess Vladimir, Kyril's mother? She's also known as Miechen, or as Marie Pavlovna. I find her a very fascinating character but I know very little about her. Evidently, she did not much care for Alexandra, and I wonder how much (if any) that came into the equation at the time of Nicholas II's abdication. A very interesting thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Katharina on March 02, 2004, 08:32:01 AM
Here is a story told by Prince Roman Romanov:

During the last years of Imperial Russia Marie Pavolvna used to have her own tea party at the Mariinsky Theatre whenever the two empresses were out of town.

The tsar didn't say anything against this arbitrary act. The Dowager Empress however was upset.
At first she ignored this new habit as if she had not been told. Yet in private she decided to teach Miechen a lesson. By the way, Marie Feodorovna did not like her sister in law very much.

One evening the Dowager Empress returned unexpectedly from Tsarkoe Selo. What a shock for Miechen when all of a sudden there were two tables laid with cookies and pastry in the antechamber of the imperial box!

From that day on Miechen never hosted a tea-party at the Mariinsky again.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Jackswife on March 02, 2004, 09:19:31 AM
 :o Fascinating story! Really shows how the Dowager Empress was able to get across her point. Thanks so much. These are the kinds of things I was looking for about Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: sourcream on March 04, 2004, 10:55:08 PM
You may find a few more tid-bits about the Vladymir clan in the following books: Romanov Autumn & also Flight of the Romanovs It seems that the parents (Miechen & GD Vladymir) while not a love match, were committed to each other out of a sense of duty. They both were lovers of fine food, gambling, living abroad, the arts, generally having fun & enjoying other people. I recall one incident described in one of the above books where the two of them were banished from Russia by Alexander III for their atrocious behaviour at some dinner function - both were enjoying the company of other companions when GD Vladymir noticed his wife's activities & proceeded to start a punch-fest with the chap who was openly smooching with Miechen. I guess that about says it all if you really read between the lines - which really begs the question of how faithful were any of the aristocracy to their marriage vows?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: James H on March 06, 2004, 12:21:09 AM

Jackswife

The Alexandrovichi didn't like the Maria Pavlovna because they thought her pretentious and overbearing. Also after the Alexandrovichi Maria Pavlovna's Family were next in line.  When Boris Proposed to Olga the Empress refused to even consider the match which infuriated Miechen. Another interesting story is that just before the revolution Miechen mentioned to a government official that Empress Alexandra must be "Annihilated".  She seems to have been vain and self assured and cetainly spent a great deal of money on Jewelery I read that she was one of Cartiers best customers. Hope this help:)

James
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on March 06, 2004, 08:19:46 AM
On Maria Pavlovna (the elder) --

Maria Pavlovna was born a Princess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, an ancient and important German mediatised family.   The problem with the Mecklenburgs is that their fortune and their influence had been divided over the years by the rise of cadet branches (Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Mecklenburg-Strelitz, etc.).  Maria Pavlovna was raised to believe she should be a Queen regnant, but this was not to be.

Maria Pavlovna arrived in Russia as one of the most important women at court; Maria Alexandrovna (daughter of ALexander II) had served as official hostess due to her mother's long illness, and had left Russia to marry the Duke of Edinburgh.  As a result, Maria Pavlovna was the number three woman at court after the Empress, and the Tsarevna (Maria Feodorovna).

As time went on, Maria Pavlovna was bumped out of the highest positions by the majorite of Grand Duchesses Olga and Xenia. Grand Duchess Elizabeth married into the family and was universally regarded as the most beautiful and interesting of the foreign Grand Duchesses.  When Alexandra married nicholas and churned out four ravishing Grand Duchesses of her own, Maria saw her position as irrevocably eroded.

As Alexandra withdrew after 1905, Maria Pavlovna became bolder, asserting her primacy as the wife of the third in line to the throne.  From the Vladimir Palace in Petersburg, and her palace at Ropsha, Maria Pavlovna effectivley set up an alternate Imperial Court; she entertained lavishly and frequently, she travelled extensively, and her influence was widely felt.

After the forced exile of her oldest son after his marriage to Victoria Melita and the death of her husband, she felt her power slipping, and it was then that she began to lash out at Nicholas and Alexandra with comments regarding the "annihilation" of the EMpress.  She was quite desperate at the end.

Sadly, what Maria Pavlovna wanted more than anything came to pass; her son Kirill became heir, but by then it was too late.

She was, as was mentioned earlier, one of Cartier's greatest clients, commissioning hundreds of pieces over the years.  When she died, I heard from a Cartier expert that she owed more than 250,000 roubles in unpaid bills to the Parisian jeweler.

Best,

Nick
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: RobMoshein on March 06, 2004, 09:47:09 AM
Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession.

According to Spiridovitch, everyone knew that when Maria P. converted to Orthodoxy in 1908, it was only to try to prevent the issue from coming up. One of her sons (Spiridovitch did not name him, probably because he was still alive at the time) went to the Minister of Justice, Chtcheglov, for a legal report on the question.  The report concluded that her late conversion to Orthodoxy could not retroactively change the fact that they were born to a non-Orthodox mother and were thus excluded from succession to the throne.   A copy of the report was actually submitted to the Emperor and so everyone knew they had no succession rights. This of course, only made Empress Alexandra even colder towards her than she already was. After the death of Vladimir, a copy of the report was brought to Maria Pavlovna and her sons.  While they had no succession rights (from being born to a non Orthodox mother), they still had precedance rights, as grandsons of an Emperor (thanks Nick!), which would explain why they were still listed in the Court Almanach and Calendar....

This could explain a lot of things. Like why Marie Feodrovna never recognized Kyrill's rights. Or even why Kyrill turned on Nicholas II so quickly... perhaps even why the Bolsheviks did not kill them when they wiped out the rest of the family.  I would LOVE to know if a copy of the report could be found in GARF. (unless maybe Maria made a deal to have it destroyed when she met Yeltsin??)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: jackie3 on March 06, 2004, 03:28:44 PM
Um, hi, I'm new.

Does anyone know what GD Meichen thought she would gain by getting her son Boris to Olga N.? I'm assuming of course (based on all I've read on him which isn't a lot) that it wasn't Boris' idea and I sincerely doubt he loved Olga. Miechen had to know how Alexandra felt about it, that Olga had much more better prospects than a profligate cousin many years older than her who she hadn't had a lot of contact with and that Olga herself, considering her intelligence and the morals Alix raised her in would probably refuse herself even if Alix didn't say anything. Were the Vladomirovichi hedging their bets in case Alexis was able to survive to take the throne and they wanted an "in" with him via his sister? Perhaps they thought if push came to shove Nicholas would push them out and open the succession to daughters (disregarding Tsar Paul's House Laws) which would make Olga, not Michael, heir presumptive after her brother. Otherwise the proposal doesn't make sense.

Has for GD Cyril, I really have nothing but contempt for him. He abandoned the family when the children were sick to pledge himselfand his troops, red flag and all to the Prov. Govt.  Even if Nicholas had abdicated, based on his own oath to the Tsar, Cyril should have stayed to protect Alexis (since from what I understand there is some doubt whether Nicholas could have abstained for him). Then when the family was still only "presumed" dead (bodies never being found), the traitor and his wife styled themselves as "Majesty". It's a wonder all the Romanovs didn't just turn their backs on him.

I know many Russian Monarchists support his granddaughter GD Maria as the present Head of the House (the other Romanovs see it differently) but does anyone know if she has addressed her grandfather's behavior during the Revolution? There are still many French Legitimiste monarchists who still refuse to accept the House of Orleans because of the stain of Phillipe Egalite and what he did to HIS cousin during that revolution.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Lanie on March 06, 2004, 04:51:32 PM
Speaking of the whole situation about Boris proposing to Olga--do we know anything more about it, other than Alix's comments in that one letter to Nicholas?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: BobAtchison on March 06, 2004, 06:37:42 PM
According to the Memoirs of General Wrangel in January 1917 Grand Duchess Victoria Melita came to him in Romania and he reports....

"The Grand Duchess gave us to understand that the majority of the members of the Imperial Family, especially the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (mother of the Grand Duke Cyril) considered it necessary to modify the existing order of things, and that many influential members of the Duma shared this view."

"This long interview with the Grand Duchess left a painful impression on my mind.  I met her many times in Petersburg, but I had never been one of her circle.  Her desire to see me, and the confidences with which she had honored me, seemed a trifle unusual."

"Subsequent events, and the part that the Grand Duke Cyril played at the head of the "revolutionary" Marines-of-the-Guard in the first days of the Revolution perhaps explain many things".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 07, 2004, 08:07:18 PM
Rob - with all due respect, Spidirovitch may have been a Russian, but he apparently was not familiar with the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire. Kirill's succession rights were never in question - as evidenced by his appearence in court circulars as a member of the dynasty until they stopped being published.

Maria Pavlovna was permitted by her father in law to continue practicing her religion because at the time, the male line of Alexander III appeared very strong with 3 living sons, and it seemed unlikely her children would ever succeed to the throne.

However, due to George Alexandrovich's early death and the family's failure to marry off Michael properly, and most importantly, Alexandra's birthing so many daughters, by the time a sickly Alexis was born - with no more children coming - all of this changed. It was at this time that Maria P converted, but it wasn't to gain her three sons the succession rights they already had. Rather, it was a smart political move on her part to ensure when her sons did become heirs, there would be no questions as to her religion. Of course, I don't think even she envisioned the situation that elevated them to that status.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Louise on April 29, 2004, 07:44:32 PM
I was just reading about Bridal Choices and how first cousins are forbidden by the Russian Orthodox Church to marry. How did Kyril and Ducky get passed this law. What was the reaction of Vladimir and his wife and the Duchess of Edinburgh?

Louise
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: JM on April 29, 2004, 09:00:35 PM
Vladimir and his wife were more outraged at Kyril's punishment than at his marriage. That is all I know. :-[

BTW, did the Tsar ever officially condone Kyril and Ducky's marriage?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on April 29, 2004, 10:46:01 PM
This topic is often discussed in alt.talk.royalty (man, there are experts there on this and the ensuing succession issue). It's my understanding that after quite a few years, the Tsar eventually "forgave" (if that's the same as official condoning) Kyril and allowed him and Victoria to return from their exile and his rank, etc...was returned to him. Re: the succession of their descendants to the "throne" this issue of official recognition comes up as well as the first cousin issue and the fact that Victoria Melita didn't convert right away. The irony being that they returned not too long before WW1--they probably would've been better off staying in exile. As for the Duchess of Coburg, I don't have any hard evidence but since she adamantly opposed and eventually scuttled the romance of her daughter Beatrice and Nicholas II's brother Michael on just those reasons (1st cousins), I can't imagine she was too thrilled, especially with the ensuing scandal. However, I also imagine that as fierce as she was she didn't take too well to the punishment that was meted out to her daughter.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Namarolf on April 29, 2004, 10:49:42 PM
Is there any record about N & A's behaviour to Kiril V. and Victoria F.'s daughters?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Forum Admin on May 07, 2004, 11:03:15 AM
We have just found confirmation of the Tchcheglovitov report in the Diaries of V. M. Purishkevitch , Right wing Duma member and part of the murder of Rasputin:

26 November 1916: (snip) I feel that the Valdimiroviches, and their mother, while remaining inherently foreign and germanophobic, do not only harm to our army at the front, but constantly intrigue against the Sovereign ( which they try to disguise with high flown talk about the good of Russia).
They have never given up their hope that the throne of Russia would one day revert to their line. I can't help but remember the story told by Ivan Grigorievich Tchchelgovitov, of how, when he was Minister of Justice, Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich came up to him one day to have him elucidate the question: did they, the Vladimiroviches, have the right according to the laws of the Russian Empire, to succed to the throne, and if not, why not?
Tchcheglovitov, who after this talk with the Grand Duke Boris, became the subject of their cruel hatred, received from them the nickname of Vanka Cain (an anti-Semitic slur), explained to the Grand Duke that they had no right to the succession because the Grand Duchess Marya Pavlovna, their mother, had remained a Lutheran after her marriage.  Boris went off disappointed, but some time later he put at Tchcheglovitov's disposal a document which made it clear that Marya Pavlovna had ceased being a Lutheran and had become a member of the Orthodox Church...

V.M. Purishkevich, The Murder of Rasputin, Edited by Michael E. Shaw, 1985 Ardis Publishers. ISBN 0-88233-931-1. pg 87-88.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2004, 09:00:34 PM
Quote
In between the time that VM & GD Kyril married and the Tsar reinstated Kyril's rights and rank & sanctioned the marriage, what was she known as? She couldn't technically be called "GDss Kyril" as she was later known--does anyone know what it was in those few years?



Actually, I've managed to answer my own question! While I was looking through books for Tatiana's godparents, I came across this notation:

KR, Diary 23 July 1907
.....On the 15th July, 'acceding to the request of Vladimir', as it was put in the Senate ukaz, the Emperor recognized Kyril's wedding; his wife is to be known as the Grand Duchess Victoria, and their daughter recognized as a princess of the imperial blood. How strange it all is! What does it have to do with Vladimir's request? How can that request legitimize that, which is not legal? After all, Kyril married his first cousin, which is not allowed by the church. It's even stranger since before, Kyril's wife was known as the Princess Kyrillovsky, signifying that she was a person, with whom Kyril had entered into a morganatic marriage. Kyril refused that title and insisted on his own. His wife is now a grand duchess.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Greg_King on June 19, 2004, 03:35:39 AM
Quote


Actually, I've managed to answer my own question! While I was looking through books for Tatiana's godparents, I came across this notation:

KR, Diary 23 July 1907
.....On the 15th July, 'acceding to the request of Vladimir', as it was put in the Senate ukaz, the Emperor recognized Kyril's wedding; his wife is to be known as the Grand Duchess Victoria, and their daughter recognized as a princess of the imperial blood. How strange it all is! What does it have to do with Vladimir's request? How can that request legitimize that, which is not legal? After all, Kyril married his first cousin, which is not allowed by the church. It's even stranger since before, Kyril's wife was known as the Princess Kyrillovsky, signifying that she was a person, with whom Kyril had entered into a morganatic marriage. Kyril refused that title and insisted on his own. His wife is now a grand duchess.


I've seen some of the letters on this in private Romanov hands, and while it's true that the title "Princess Kirillovsky" was bandied about by someone (I've never seen by whom) it would have been wrong-and KR is clearly wrong in thinking it would be correct and that it signified a morganatic marriage.  Whatever the objections to Kirill and Ducky's marriage, it wasn't morganatic by any stretch of the imagination-that term signifies marriage to a person of unequal rank, which Ducky most definitely was not.

I'll save my other arguments for the "Who is the rightful heir" thread.

Greg King
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on June 19, 2004, 03:51:42 PM
Quote

I've seen some of the letters on this in private Romanov hands, and while it's true that the title "Princess Kirillovsky" was bandied about by someone (I've never seen by whom) it would have been wrong-and KR is clearly wrong in thinking it would be correct and that it signified a morganatic marriage.  Whatever the objections to Kirill and Ducky's marriage, it wasn't morganatic by any stretch of the imagination-that term signifies marriage to a person of unequal rank, which Ducky most definitely was not.

I'll save my other arguments for the "Who is the rightful heir" thread.

Greg King


OK, sigh, back to the drawing board. I thought that answered the question. I mean, she must've been called SOMETHING back then. If Kyril wasn't a Grand Duke anymore, Princess Kyril? Just Princess Victoria?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on June 30, 2004, 10:05:30 AM
Actually, I think KR was being kind by allowing Ducky the title of "Princess Kirillovsky".  Since Kirill had been stripped of his Grand Ducal title, Victoria Melita was technically "Mrs. Romanov."  Hard to swallow for some, but true.  Once his titles were restored, she became Grand Duchess.   The problem was never that the marriage was morganatic, it was that the Emperor refused to recognize it as head of the Church.

Greg, can't wait to hop onto the other string with you, and get down and dirty about Maria Pavlovna the elder!

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: rjt on July 19, 2004, 11:46:44 PM
Re Victoria Melita & Kyrill from http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Princess_Victoria_Melita_of_Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

The last two years of her second marriage were colored by some sort of revelation about her husband Cyril’s sexual life. “There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationships far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and casual affair with another woman.”

Ducky died following a stroke.


What is this about, any ideas?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alicky1872 on January 08, 2005, 03:58:05 PM
In his book on Ducky, John Van Der Kiste talks about something that Kirill did that hurt Ducky so much, she could never forgive him again, even till her dying day. Ducky's sister Marie of Romania brought up this mysterious subject in letters, stating how Ducky was a changed woman, and could never trust men again, or something to that effect. Van Der Kiste hints that Kirill possibly had a homosexual affair, and it may have brought on memories of Ernie's alleged exploits...

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Angie_H on January 08, 2005, 04:00:06 PM
I thought Kirill had affairs with other women? Maybe that is why she was so changed? Ducky did sacrifice alot to marry the man she loved and his having affairs must have been a big blow to her
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alicky1872 on January 08, 2005, 04:06:49 PM
I don't know, it seems like it had to be something BIG to change her so much. Realistically, she must have known about the Romanov men's love of women. In that era it was pratically the norm for Royal men to have affairs, so she would have been brought up to "sweep things under the rug" so to speak.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on January 08, 2005, 08:07:30 PM
Some have speculated it could've been an affair. She didn't really love Ernie so his affairs wouldn't have mad her so mad or hurt. Kyril, whom she'd braved much to be with--divorce, censure, marrying in defiance of the Tsar--and having only their family basically left after the Revolution, it could've felt like a HUGE betrayal to someone who'd lost so much already.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Martyn on January 09, 2005, 05:11:18 AM
Quote
Some have speculated it could've been an affair. She didn't really love Ernie so his affairs wouldn't have mad her so mad or hurt. Kyril, whom she'd braved much to be with--divorce, censure, marrying in defiance of the Tsar--and having only their family basically left after the Revolution, it could've felt like a HUGE betrayal to someone who'd lost so much already.


That seems like the most sensible suggestion.  Ducky really staked everything on Kyril and whatever it was that he did, it hurt her very much.  I'm inclined to think that Ducky's passions were intense and that she really did love Kyril.  That they stayed married must say something;after all she had braved the censure and ostracism of divorce before and by the twenties and thirties it was no longer the cause celebre that it had been in the early part of the century....
I am surprised that there aren't more rumours about Kyril, after all his brothers' love of the ladies was legendary.....
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on January 12, 2005, 02:58:28 PM
Ducky was deeply hurt when she learned that her husband was involved in a long term affair - although the family never talked about it publicly.  But it put a damper on family life.  Queen Marie of Romania alluded to the affair - as did Infanta Beatrice (one of my special favorites).  

Frankly, she was devastated by the revelation.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: QueenEna1887 on February 25, 2005, 12:47:11 PM
From what a close friend of mine John Kendrick has told me, that Cyril was a hypocrite. He broke his oath to the Czar during the Russian Revolution when he gave him the title of Head of the Palace Guards to watch over the Czar's wife and children. He abandoned his post and marched with the other troops during the revolution. What he committed was treason which could have caused him death for defying a Czar. Anyways his mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the elder did not like the Czar or his wife and tried to plan a nasty plot on the Czar in 1916 to get Cyril on the throne. Anyways after a London Court in 1924 proved that the Czar's brother Michael was dead he had the nerve to call himself " Czar of Russia-in-exile" What a loser!!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: JonC on February 25, 2005, 03:12:02 PM
Hi, I know its a bit off topic...but, what proof did the court see in 1924 concerning the death of GD Michael?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: QueenEna1887 on February 25, 2005, 08:57:31 PM
London Courts proved that Michael was murdered which was in fact true. For years the Grand Duke went missing after he abdicated!!!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on February 25, 2005, 10:01:48 PM
Quote
Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession."

This is always a misnomer when it comes to the succession and Orthodoxy.  The Fundamental laws include statements for succession and marriage.  There are no laws that exclude the issue of non-Orthodox marriages. (Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right to the throne when she married.  Her mother never converted to Orthodoxy.)   What is clear is that the Heir (and spouse) have to be orthodox.  But there is nothing in the laws that say the issue of a non-Orthodox wife are excluded.  The laws do provide regulations for approved marriages.  Alexander II approved the marriage of his son Wladimir to Marie of Mecklenburg (who came from a ruling house.)  Neither Wladimir or Kirill were removed from the list of members of the Imperial family in the Court Calendar.  This inclusion was an inherent right of succession to the throne.

The two clauses 184, and 185, are about the religion of the children of the marriage, not the member of the house who made the marriage.   After the train crash at Borki that nearly killed Alexander III and his family,  a commission was set up to discuss, among other things, the succession, and it was pointed out at that time that Wladimir did retain rights and his children were not excluded despite the fact that Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908.   There are discussions about this is AA Polovtsov's diary - he was the state secretary.  If Wladimir's children were not dynasts, they would not have been listed as members of the Imperial family.  Membership in the family also meant succession rights.

184 states "with the permission of the emperor, members of the Imperial House may enter into marriage with persons of the Orthodox faith and with persons of other denominations," while 1985 stated  "the marriage of a male dynast of the imperial house who might succeed to the throne may not take place until she has embraced orthodoxy."  This requirement was largely reserved for the Heir apparent, not for other members of the family who were not close to the throne.  Wladimir and Konstantin married Lutherans.  But both marriages were approved, and their children had rights. If Alexis had been healthy - and Grand Duke Michael not cavorting with unsuitable women, Marie Pavlovna would probably have not converted.  But by the time she joined the church, the family knew that Alexis was not healthy, that Alix would probably not have further issue, and Grand Duke Michael was not going to marry equally.

The Orthodox church forbids marriages between first cousins.  The church also forbids marriages between second cousins and between third cousins.  For the Imperial Family that dictum was a bit too confining - as there are second cousin marriages.  Kirill and Victoria Melita's marriage was not originally approved by the Tsar, as defined by the FUndamental Laws.  However, they were married in an Orthodox ceremony (despite being first cousins, and Nicholas did eventually recognize the marriage and ordered that Victoria be styled as Grand Duchess. She was permitted to retain her first name -- contrary to several biographers, Ducky and Alix were not bitter enemies.  She converted to Orthodoxy before Maria was born -- and after Maria's birth, Nicholas ordered that Maria be listed in the family book - which according to another fundamental law, defined membership in the Imperial House.   The fundamental laws did not include a provision for membership in the imperial house without succession rights.

As I stated above, Princess Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right of succession when she married ... and Nicholas refers to this right in the official document of her renouncement.  Her mother was Lutheran.

The Bolsheviks were not in power when Kerensky made arrangements for Kirill and Ducky to leave, although they left separately, and it was not easy.  They did not live in luxury when in Finland.  IN fact, life was harsh for the couple and their three children, as Ducky was pregnant when they left for Finland in JUne 1917.

Is it entirely possible that Maria Feodorovna did not recognize Kirill as head of the house because she did not want to accept that her son and grandson were dead.    It makes perfect sense that Minnie would not have accepted anyone as heir because she wanted to believe that Nicholas and Alexis were alive.  By recognizing Kirill, Minnie would have accepted that her son and his family were dead.  That would have been too much to ask ... yet her son-in-law, Alexander, makes it clear that Kirill was the head of the family, and he was not alone in that judgment.  Nearly all the surviving members of the Imperial family acknowledged Kirill, and later Wladimir - witness the official statements/documents of 1924 and 1938.

Nicholas Romanov has never disputed the succession of Kirill nor Wladimir, actually (and Nicholas does not have dynastic rights because he was born of a morganatic marriage.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Frederika on March 25, 2005, 03:38:26 AM
Did Victoria Melieta's husmand make him self Tzar after the revalution so was she ever a bogas Tzarina she died at 60 so did she ever live to see it? :P
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Annushka on March 29, 2005, 11:38:09 AM
I'm not sure that it was bogus.  Kirill was the next surviving male Romanov and would have ascended to the throne of Russia if something had happened to Nicky, Alexei and Michael.  And after the revolution all three were dead (whether or not Maria Feodorovna would admit it) so Kirill wasnext in line to inherit the throne.

He was Tsar in exile.

Holly
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 29, 2005, 08:41:54 PM
Quote
I'm not sure that it was bogus.  Kirill was the next surviving male Romanov and would have ascended to the throne of Russia if something had happened to Nicky, Alexei and Michael.  And after the revolution all three were dead (whether or not Maria Feodorovna would admit it) so Kirill wasnext in line to inherit the throne.

He was Tsar in exile.

Holly


That is true but I do believe he did some things that basically disqualified him as being the next Tsar.

He married Victoria Melita without the Tsar permission

She was his first cousin

And I think he betrayed the Tsar when he swore off his allience when the revolution occured.

Could be wrong but I think these things would have made it so Krill and Ducky could not be Tsar or Tsarina in exile.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: darius on March 30, 2005, 03:01:34 AM
The Tsar eventually recognised the marriage and Kirill´s place in the succession was not affected. According to the Imperial Succession - after Nicholas II, Alexei and Michael Alexandrovich, Kirill was heir to the throne.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 30, 2005, 10:18:51 AM
Didn't the mother of a tsar have to be orthodox at the time of her marriage? I think Krill's mother converted years later when it seemed her son would one day become Tsar.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure I have read this several times.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 30, 2005, 10:28:19 AM
Quote
From what a close friend of mine John Kendrick has told me, that Cyril was a hypocrite. He broke his oath to the Czar during the Russian Revolution when he gave him the title of Head of the Palace Guards to watch over the Czar's wife and children. He abandoned his post and marched with the other troops during the revolution. What he committed was treason which could have caused him death for defying a Czar. Anyways his mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the elder did not like the Czar or his wife and tried to plan a nasty plot on the Czar in 1916 to get Cyril on the throne. Anyways after a London Court in 1924 proved that the Czar's brother Michael was dead he had the nerve to call himself " Czar of Russia-in-exile" What a loser!!


I completly agree with you. I don't believe any of Cyril's decendants have any right to any sort of claim on a throne that Cyril helped get rid of when he turned on the Tsar. Granted Nicholas was the best Tsar, but still treason is treason.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: jfkhaos on March 30, 2005, 10:38:39 AM
Kyril's mother did convert years after she was married into the Romanov family from what I have recently read.  When Ella married into the family, Miechen was glad to have a fellow princess who did not renounce her German Lutheranism for the Russian Orthodox faith, and she was highly upset when Ella did eventually decide to convert.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: felix on March 30, 2005, 11:13:54 AM
Cyril was a snake! Like his Mother! And most likely his wife!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 30, 2005, 12:02:38 PM
So if she converted several years after the birth of her son then Victoria Melita and Kirill could not proclaim themselves Tsar and Tsarina in exile then, right?

Also, when did Victoria Melita convert to the Russian Orthodox church? Was it before or after her marriage?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2005, 12:12:09 PM
Quote
.
As I stated above, Princess Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right of succession when she married ... and Nicholas refers to this right in the official document of her renouncement.  Her mother was Lutheran.


Was this really just symbolic--women couldn't assume the throne? Much like people today go to the Queen for permission to marry even if they're like 100 people removed from the throne.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2005, 12:16:14 PM
Just out of curiosity--say for the sake of argument Kyril was perfectly entitled to the throne (questions of Orthodoxy, marriage etc aside). Shouldn't the 'throne' then have passed from his son Vladimir to the next male dynast since Vladimir had only a daughter. I know he decreed she had the right of succession but it seems kind of sneaky to bypass the females in Nicholas' family--namely Xenia and her children who were born of a very acceptable match--for the reason she was a female and then just *poof* change the Pauline law. Of course it's really moot since I doubt there will ever be a restoration.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on March 30, 2005, 01:11:32 PM
Quote
Just out of curiosity--say for the sake of argument Kyril was perfectly entitled to the throne (questions of Orthodoxy, marriage etc aside). Shouldn't the 'throne' then have passed from his son Vladimir to the next male dynast since Vladimir had only a daughter. I know he decreed she had the right of succession but it seems kind of sneaky to bypass the females in Nicholas' family--namely Xenia and her children who were born of a very acceptable match--for the reason she was a female and then just *poof* change the Pauline law. Of course it's really moot since I doubt there will ever be a restoration.


Seems to me GD Ella that if we stay in the male line (pure discrimination) then the crown should pass to Paul Illinsky and his sons (currently of Palm Beach, Florida and Cincinnatti, Ohio) not Xenia because she is a woman and the crown cannot pass to or through a women per Pauline Law.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2005, 01:36:02 PM
Quote

Seems to me GD Ella that if we stay in the male line (pure discrimination) then the crown should pass to Paul Illinsky and his sons (currently of Palm Beach, Florida and Cincinnatti, Ohio) not Xenia because she is a woman and the crown cannot pass to or through a women per Pauline Law.

TampaBay


Well that was kind of my point.  :)  The closest survivors to NII--his sisters--were excluded because of the Pauline Law but Vladimir felt able to dispose of it for his own daughter. At least Xenia and her descendants would come down directly from the last Tsars. But if we don't go backwards (in theory only) then it should've passed from Vladimir to the next male anyway.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 30, 2005, 02:15:47 PM
It sounds like there are several reasons why Victoria Melita’s and Kyrill's descendants  would have no right over any claim to the Russian throne ( if there was one.)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 31, 2005, 02:38:03 PM
Quote

Was this really just symbolic--women couldn't assume the throne? Much like people today go to the Queen for permission to marry even if they're like 100 people removed from the throne.


Nonetheless, women did have succession rights under the semi-Salic system so where indicated, female dynasts had to renounce these rights upon marriage. Just as those unlikely to inherit the throne must ask HM the Queen for permission to marry.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on June 02, 2005, 10:51:26 AM
I have always wondered, Was Ducky in love with Cyrill or in love with Russia.  I do not understand what she saw in Cyrill.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alicky1872 on June 02, 2005, 11:08:11 AM
Well, love is blind as they say... I know Ducky's sister Missy referred to Cyrill as "the marble man" because of his apparent lack of emotions, but maybe around Ducky he was a different person all together. Some of us put on a cold front to the world, sometimes because we're shy, or because we don't want to be hurt...but at home around our loved ones, we're very different people, aren't we? (Just thinking of Alix, and Queen Mary to name a few...)

If I remember correctly, they fell in love at Nicky's coronation, when Ducky was still married to Ernie. Since they were cousins, they would have been pretty close to begin with, but since D. was in the middle of a loveless marriage, maybe she confided in C. and he supported her. It was probably a combination of the heady excitement of the coronation, and the fact that she possibly felt admired by a man for the first time in her life. (While I love Ernie, I think everyone would agree it wasn't exactly a match made in heaven...) Maybe Cyrill was a very passionate man!  ;)

To answer your question about whether she was in love with Russia--I think to a degree, yes. It would have been romanticised in her eyes, from stories her mother (Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna) would tell her, and Ducky would have only been there for great family occasions and  holidays, so then she would have seen Russia in it's best (and most exciting) light.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: bluetoria on June 02, 2005, 01:43:07 PM
Quote

If I remember correctly, they fell in love at Nicky's coronation, when Ducky was still married to Ernie. Since they were cousins, they would have been pretty close to begin with,  


I always thought that they had been in love before Ducky married but because the Orthodox Church forbade marriage between first cousins theyt had to abandon one another. I suppose the coronation just re-lit the old flame!

Quote

Maybe Cyrill was a very passionate man!  ;)
 


Maybe he was...but he looks about as passionate as a cold rice pudding!

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on June 02, 2005, 03:04:16 PM
I think she was as much in love with being a Romanov as she was Cyril and nothing wrong with that.

Ducky was not very English (as was Marie of Romania) and after the Hesse "mess" she really wasn't very German.  Off all the Edinburgh/Coburg children, Ducky seems to me the most Russian.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alicky1872 on June 02, 2005, 04:58:47 PM
Quote

I always thought that they had been in love before Ducky married but because the Orthodox Church forbade marriage between first cousins theyt had to abandon one another. I suppose the coronation just re-lit the old flame!


Yes, that's correct. I should have said that the coronation was when they really rekindled their love for one another.

While I'm no fan of "The Marble Man", I've always thought this picture shows his softer side...

holding his baby daughter Marie
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/kirillbabymarie.jpg)


Ducky and Cyrill together
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/couple.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on June 02, 2005, 09:23:42 PM
Odd as it seems because I think Kyril pretty unlikable I think she genuinely loved him. She certainly looks softer in many photos of them (at least early on before exile) than she ever did with Ernie. Russia was certainly an attraction though. However, they knew what would come down on their heads by marrying and finally just went ahead and did it even though it meant banishment. To spend years waiting to marry and then being willing to risk the punishment I think says something. Plus the fact that Ducky was just as committed to him in exile. It wasn't until whatever it was he did to break her heart that she turned from him. To be that brokenhearted (and Missy's left quite a portrait of it) there had to be some serious feelings there. Now I don't see the appeal of him in looks or personality but I don't doubt that she did.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on June 03, 2005, 09:29:38 AM
No doubt Cyril loved Ducky.  From the day she died until he died he always carried two things in his wallet:

1.  Her Picture at the time of their marriage.

2.  The telegram making her a Russian Grand Duchess & acepting her into the Rusaian Imperila Family.  

This telegram was their "permission slip" to return to Russia and live in full Imperial splendor.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: wittykitty on June 03, 2005, 02:17:40 PM
Hi,

Does anybody have any information on GD's  activity during the war? In a book by Sullivan  "Fatal Passion" he alleges she was on the front with Kyrill and had started a ambulance service for the russian soldiers and helped to bring supplies to her sister Queen Marie.
I have looked thru books about on other family members that I own and books in the  NYC library on the russian family and  I can't find any refrence except
one small sentence in a book on Empress Alexandra diary  " Ducky and her mother in law GD Vladamir (Michen) were on a sanitary (shower) train. No mention of her helping Alix and the girls with hospitals or even in the book no picure of her in a Red Cross Uniform. The Dowanger Empress was in charge of the Red Cross and I can't find a refrence in her bio of Ducky's major feat. In the bio of her sister Queen Marie there is no mention and the sisters were close why leave it out ? It's just one of the things that bug me about the book.
Wittykitty  :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Rosamund on June 03, 2005, 04:16:49 PM
I found this in 'Queen Victoria's Relations' by Meriel Buchanan.

'The Grand Duchess Cyril had her own ambulance-train during the war.  She travelled continually backwards and forwards to the Front, returning sometimes looking worn and harassed, her eyes heavy with lack of sleep and overpowering weariness.  She was acutely aware of the lack of organisation in the conduct of the war; she had seen the appalling shortage of ammunition, the scarcity of supplies and Red-Cross material.'

Meriel Buchanan goes on to say that the Grand Duchess blamed the Empress for the mismanagement in the administration in the country.  When she approached the latter she was told that these matters were not her concern.  Ducky felt that Alix had treated her like an ignorant schoolgirl.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on June 03, 2005, 05:35:02 PM
From A Fatal Passion

'One of the most important aspects of these preparations was the organization of a large and efficient ambulance service. Almost all of the traditional relief organizations in Russia, such as the hospitals and the Red Cross, were financed and supported by the imperial family...Ducky was one of the first to put together a modern ambulance outfit...before long Ducky found herself the head of a huge mobile health-care system. She 'threw herself wholeheartedly into nursing and her motorized ambulance unit was one of the most efficiently run services in Russia.' 'The task which she undertook required hard work and great thoroughness to make it function smoothly in the changing and difficult circumstances...' [wrote Kyril] 'She helped in making her motorized ambulance work one of the best run auxiliary services in Russia. It worked with great regularity and was absolutely reliable, at a time when these characteristics, owing to our total unpreparedness, were, alas, conspicuously lacking in manyh of the various branches of our armies....Unlike many others who were playing at Red Cross nurses [this seems a slam at Alexandra--tacky  :( ] she had chosen hard and practical work, and on several occasions had carried out her duties under the enemy's fire.'

At the front, near Warsaw, Ducky regularly visited the battle lines...everywhere she went, she won praise. When her Red Cross train arrived at the supreme commander's headquarters at the front, General Kodzerovsky watched her with admiration, remarking that he was 'quite impressed by her energetic looks.'

The carnage kept Ducky constantly busy...Ducky worked day and night among the wounded and the dead. The ordeal proved perfectly designed for her iron will and courageous character. She toiled without reluctance or complaint."
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on June 04, 2005, 06:15:21 AM
Well, I am not a fan of GD Kirill either. I read his book of memoirs and found it a boring one.
But I was really amazed to see this photo of Kirill !

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/K.jpg)

Does anyone know an exact date of the photo? Kirill looks very young.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Frederika on June 05, 2005, 04:24:27 AM
why did viktoria melita die so young?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: bluetoria on June 05, 2005, 05:40:13 AM
While she was attending the birth of her grandchild in Germany, she suffered a stroke and never recovered - dying 12 days later.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Finelly on June 16, 2005, 09:10:49 PM
I disagree that he committed "treason".  Nicholas and Alexandra pretty much destroyed the monarchy by their bizarre behavior and the war.  Cyrill wrote extensively and discussed equally extensively his concerns, as did most of his relatives.  He may not have been the greatest guy in the world, but the argument can be made that he made mindful choices in a difficult situation.  
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 16, 2005, 11:26:47 PM
Quote
As commander of the Garde Equipage, the marines guarding the Alexander Palace at the time of the revolution, he and they were the almost sole protectors of the tsarina and her children who were ill with the measles. Instead of being true to the family and his oath, Cyril ordered the marines to march away from the palace and march to Petrograd, leaving the palace and family virtually unguarded.


If the Emperor Nicholas II had already abdicated at the time Grand Duke Kyril moved his troops then he broke no loyalty oath. The loyalty oath was unilaterally and legally terminated when the Emperor signed the instrument of abdication. Did GD Kyril have a moral obligation to protect the former Emperor's family, probably so but the way in which the rest of the IF had been treated by the Empress made this moral obligation hard to stomach. Keep in mind that GD Kyril had a pregnant wife and two children in the city, a place where they were more likely to face an angry crowd than the Empress and her children in the countryside. I am sure that he decided to ensure that his family was safe.

DAP
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: miller99 on June 19, 2005, 04:59:23 AM
Quote
Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession."

This is always a misnomer when it comes to the succession and Orthodoxy.  The Fundamental laws include statements for succession and marriage.  There are no laws that exclude the issue of non-Orthodox marriages. (Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right to the throne when she married.  Her mother never converted to Orthodoxy.)   What is clear is that the Heir (and spouse) have to be orthodox.  But there is nothing in the laws that say the issue of a non-Orthodox wife are excluded.  The laws do provide regulations for approved marriages.  Alexander II approved the marriage of his son Wladimir to Marie of Mecklenburg (who came from a ruling house.)  Neither Wladimir or Kirill were removed from the list of members of the Imperial family in the Court Calendar.  This inclusion was an inherent right of succession to the throne.

The two clauses 184, and 185, are about the religion of the children of the marriage, not the member of the house who made the marriage.   After the train crash at Borki that nearly killed Alexander III and his family,  a commission was set up to discuss, among other things, the succession, and it was pointed out at that time that Wladimir did retain rights and his children were not excluded despite the fact that Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908.   There are discussions about this is AA Polovtsov's diary - he was the state secretary.  If Wladimir's children were not dynasts, they would not have been listed as members of the Imperial family.  Membership in the family also meant succession rights.

184 states "with the permission of the emperor, members of the Imperial House may enter into marriage with persons of the Orthodox faith and with persons of other denominations," while 1985 stated  "the marriage of a male dynast of the imperial house who might succeed to the throne may not take place until she has embraced orthodoxy."  This requirement was largely reserved for the Heir apparent, not for other members of the family who were not close to the throne.  Wladimir and Konstantin married Lutherans.  But both marriages were approved, and their children had rights. If Alexis had been healthy - and Grand Duke Michael not cavorting with unsuitable women, Marie Pavlovna would probably have not converted.  But by the time she joined the church, the family knew that Alexis was not healthy, that Alix would probably not have further issue, and Grand Duke Michael was not going to marry equally.

The Orthodox church forbids marriages between first cousins.  The church also forbids marriages between second cousins and between third cousins.  For the Imperial Family that dictum was a bit too confining - as there are second cousin marriages.  Kirill and Victoria Melita's marriage was not originally approved by the Tsar, as defined by the FUndamental Laws.  However, they were married in an Orthodox ceremony (despite being first cousins, and Nicholas did eventually recognize the marriage and ordered that Victoria be styled as Grand Duchess. She was permitted to retain her first name -- contrary to several biographers, Ducky and Alix were not bitter enemies.  She converted to Orthodoxy before Maria was born -- and after Maria's birth, Nicholas ordered that Maria be listed in the family book - which according to another fundamental law, defined membership in the Imperial House.   The fundamental laws did not include a provision for membership in the imperial house without succession rights.

As I stated above, Princess Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right of succession when she married ... and Nicholas refers to this right in the official document of her renouncement.  Her mother was Lutheran.

The Bolsheviks were not in power when Kerensky made arrangements for Kirill and Ducky to leave, although they left separately, and it was not easy.  They did not live in luxury when in Finland.  IN fact, life was harsh for the couple and their three children, as Ducky was pregnant when they left for Finland in JUne 1917.

Is it entirely possible that Maria Feodorovna did not recognize Kirill as head of the house because she did not want to accept that her son and grandson were dead.    It makes perfect sense that Minnie would not have accepted anyone as heir because she wanted to believe that Nicholas and Alexis were alive.  By recognizing Kirill, Minnie would have accepted that her son and his family were dead.  That would have been too much to ask ... yet her son-in-law, Alexander, makes it clear that Kirill was the head of the family, and he was not alone in that judgment.  Nearly all the surviving members of the Imperial family acknowledged Kirill, and later Wladimir - witness the official statements/documents of 1924 and 1938.

Nicholas Romanov has never disputed the succession of Kirill nor Wladimir, actually (and Nicholas does not have dynastic rights because he was born of a morganatic marriage.



You are so naive :D

of course Nicholas  have dynastic rights because he is a member of House Holstein-Gottorp, a prince of Holstein-Gottorp.  

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Macedonsky on June 21, 2005, 11:46:39 AM
Quote
of course Nicholas  have dynastic rights because he is a member of House Holstein-Gottorp, a prince of Holstein-Gottorp.

Dear Miller99,

I read your 32 posts and disagree with your naive attempts to abolish the succession laws of the Russian Empire. To be Russian dynast it is not enough to be born from 'a prince of Holstein-Gottorp'. Not all male line descendants of Duke Paul of Holstein-Gottorp are members of the Russian Imperial House.

It is more complex. :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: miller99 on June 23, 2005, 05:50:28 PM
Quote
Dear Miller99,

I read your 32 posts and disagree with your naive attempts to abolish the succession laws of the Russian Empire. To be Russian dynast it is not enough to be born from 'a prince of Holstein-Gottorp'. Not all male line descendants of Duke Paul of Holstein-Gottorp are members of the Russian Imperial House.

It is more complex. :D


Yee, I think that "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore. But House of Holstein- Gottorp exist, because many of princes of Holstein-Gottorp were married to wifes who were not a equal in 17 and 18 century and they  don`t lost his rights as a members/ successors in Holstein -Gottorp House. The  Russian Imperial House Law is the  Russian Imperial House Law only, not  Law of Holstein -Gottorp House.


And of course - if "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore, the Holstein - Gottorp family is a successor of  "the Russian Imperial House".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Macedonsky on June 27, 2005, 05:06:12 AM
Quote
Yee, I think that "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore. But House of Holstein- Gottorp exist, because many of princes of Holstein-Gottorp were married to wifes who were not a equal in 17 and 18 century and they  don`t lost his rights as a members/ successors in Holstein -Gottorp House. The  Russian Imperial House Law is the  Russian Imperial House Law only, not  Law of Holstein -Gottorp House.

I disagree with you. I can say that Russian Imperial House still exist in contrast with House of Holstein-Gottorp. As we all know Duke Paul exchanged his Holstein posessions onto Oldenburg. And he ceded Oldenburg. Thus "House of Holstein-Gottorp" became only historical name and part of the titles of the Russian Emperor (even not of any other Russian dynast).

Quote
And of course - if "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore, the Holstein - Gottorp family is a successor of  "the Russian Imperial House".

Of course? Who say this to you?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 01:15:20 AM
I'm curious about Ducky and Kyrill's oldest daughter.  I see a lot of photos of Kira, but I've only seen two of Mariya as an adult.  I know she was born in 1907 and married Duke Karl of Leiningen in 1925 in Coburg, of all places.  Then they had 7, yes that's right, 7 children.  Anybody have more insight?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2005, 07:57:39 AM
Her husband died in a Soviet prison camp either during or after the war I believe. I think she was left pretty destitute and with all those children.

Marrying in Coburg wasn't that odd. Since the Romanovs were in exile marrying in her mother's hometown would make sense. At least you would have some sense of family history.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2005, 09:02:27 AM
I think that if there was still a Tsar of Russia at the time the marriage would've been considered unequal (ala Tatiana K's married to Prince Bagration) and Maria would've lost her rights. I don't know about all the wrangling nowadays.

Marlene would probably know more about this but I think there were rumors that the younger children may have been fathered by someone else.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Linnea on August 17, 2005, 10:19:44 AM
Didn´t the youngest child die only aged some months?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 01:52:30 PM
Thanks so much for the info! ;D
I ADORE this Discussion Board.
I was wondering why Leiningin was considered beneath her.  I read on another thread on the succession that it was a mediatized house, but I have no clue as to what that means.  
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2005, 02:02:28 PM
From the online gotha:

"Traditionally, the term "Mediatized" has been defined as describing those Houses of the former Holy Roman Empire which lost their sovereignty during the Napoleonic era. The most important thing which traditionally distinguished the "Mediatized" houses from other non-sovereign houses is that they have traditionally been considered to have been granted by the Congress of Vienna the status of equal birth with the sovereign houses. Not all houses usually designated as "mediatized" were actually sovereign at the beginning of the Napoleonic era or, for that matter, at any time. Some seem to have fallen into this category by accident or misunderstanding by scholars and historians. Other houses, which have as good historical claims to be considered mediatized as some who are traditionally included, have not even been listed in the Almanach de Gotha or among the Fürstliche Häuser of Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels. "


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 17, 2005, 02:31:36 PM
Arturo, im my opinion is the expert on the mediatized houses but the Leinengen is indeed equal to any other "royal" family, at least according to a handy Burke's RF of the World reference !
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 03:10:42 PM
Okay, now I have dates and names for MK's kids.  I almost freaked out when the surnames page on worldroots refused to come up, but then I remembered that there are other sources.  Here goes:
1. Pc Emich 1926* who married Eilika of Oldenburg
2. Pc Karl 1928*
3. Pcss Kira Melita 1930*, married Andrej of Yugoslavia
4. Pcss Margarita 1932*
5. Pcss Mechtilde 1936* married Karl Bauscher
6. Pc. Friedrich 1938*
7. Peter Victor (1942-1943)

I like that combination- Kira Melita.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 03:56:32 PM
Okay, I'm going to attempt to post a picture of Mariya and Karl in their wedding clothes...
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/scan0005.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2005, 06:37:28 PM
Quote
Arturo, im my opinion is the expert on the mediatized houses but the Leinengen is indeed equal to any other "royal" family, at least according to a handy Burke's RF of the World reference !


OK--I had done a search in the archives of ATR and there seemed to be a consensus that it wasn't an equal marriage but this really isn't my field at all.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 17, 2005, 06:51:12 PM
Neither is it mine, GDElla, the whole "mediatized" business is a minefield. I generally use Burke's Royal Families, sadly a bit out-of-date but generally "last word" on this sort of thing [at least in English]. Considering that the Leinengen family dates back to the 11th century and were "Princes of the Empire" I would say that makes them "royal" enough. Again, Art is the expert on the German families. Both front and back of the book.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 08:39:44 PM
No, the two posted are the only pictures of MK as an adult that I've seen.  The one above is from Charlotte Zeepvat's "The Camera and the Tsars" p.219.  It seems like once someone marries into the house of Leiningen they disappear from photography.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 09:21:16 PM
Even if adultery was the norm at the time (just for men of course) that doesn't mean the act doesn't hurt.  Adultery is an ENORMOUS betrayal.  I think of it like this: just because everyone else on the block is a widow, that doesn't mean the next wife to lose a husband won't grieve.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: bookworm857158367 on August 18, 2005, 09:16:20 PM
One of the biographies I read of her mother, either literary or on-line, said that Marie visited her cousin in Romania and made herself unwelcome because of the way she acted with the men there. Kyra handled herself better and got along better with Princess Ileana.

Apparently Ducky decided it was best to marry her daughter off young, at age 18. Mashka (her nickname) was also described as inheriting her maternal grandmother's rather dumpy figure and plain looks. In the first photo of her, she looks more drawn and worn out than dumpy. I think she lived quite a hard life and was relatively poor. World War II also destroyed her. She had a heart attack and died at a young age.

Ducky died not long after she visited Marie and helped her deliver her third or fourth child.

I've never seen photos of her as an adult either.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 22, 2005, 11:18:33 AM
Thanks bookworm for the info, that's funny how Mashka "acted up" with the men!
Thanks Tatia those pics are wonderful! :D
THis one I dug up from the Hulton archives.  It shows Kirill, Ducky, Mariya, and Kira all older.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/Kirillovnasducky.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 07, 2005, 02:52:53 PM
It should be remembered that the Russian Empire was  a major force in workings of the Congress of Vienna and that Emperor Alexander I was an actual participant. If the Russian Emperor had recognised the Princely House of Leiningen as retaining its sovereign status in 1815 then I cannot imagine that a later Emperor would reverse this descision.

Queen Victoria's own mother, Victoria Mary Louisa, was the widow of the Second Prince of Leiningen when she married HRH Edward, Duke of Kent in 1818. Obviously her late marriage to a Prince of Leiningen was not viewed in a negative way by the British Royal Family.

David
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 07, 2005, 10:53:13 PM
In reviewing the genealogical records of the Serene House of Leiningen, I have found that this house has marital alliances with the following major houses: Russia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Prussia, Baden, Hanover, Oldenburg and marital alliances with the following minor houses: Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Hohenlhe-Oehringen, Saxe-Coburg-Saalfield and Sayn-Wittgenstein.

Does anyone now doubt that the Serene House of Leiningen would have been considered equal for purposes of marriage for HH Princess Maria Kyrilovna of Russia in the eyes of a theoretically still reigning Emperor Nicholas II in 1925?

David Pritchard
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 07:24:42 PM
Hi everyone. Sorry if this has been mentioned before and I am probably very ignorant for not knowing it, but I know that when Victoria Melita of Edinburgh married Kyrill she was given the title 'Grand Duchess Viktoria Feodorovna'.

My question is, was this he official style, or was she 'Grand Ducess Kyrill'?

Likewise, was Ella 'Grand Duchess Elizaveta' or 'Grand Duchess Serge'?

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on September 10, 2005, 07:28:48 PM
I think both were used--but don't trust me on that one.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on September 11, 2005, 06:33:36 AM
Her Russian official title was Grand Duchess Viktoria Feodorovna,not "Grand Duchess Kyrill".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 11, 2005, 07:13:57 AM
Thanks guys. I just wondered because she is sometimes referred to in English books as 'Grand Duchess Kyrill'. Anyone have any info on Ella's title?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on September 11, 2005, 11:39:41 AM
Quote
Thanks guys. I just wondered because she is sometimes referred to in English books as 'Grand Duchess Kyrill'. Anyone have any info on Ella's title?


Ella's official title was "Grand Duchess Yelizaveta Feodorovna". "Grand Duchess Serge" or "Grand Duchess Kyrill" are used only in English books.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 10:51:03 AM
Quote
Okay, now I have dates and names for MK's kids.  I almost freaked out when the surnames page on worldroots refused to come up, but then I remembered that there are other sources.  Here goes:
1. Pc Emich 1926* who married Eilika of Oldenburg
2. Pc Karl 1928*
3. Pcss Kira Melita 1930*, married Andrej of Yugoslavia
4. Pcss Margarita 1932*
5. Pcss Mechtilde 1936* married Karl Bauscher
6. Pc. Friedrich 1938*
7. Peter Victor (1942-1943)

I like that combination- Kira Melita.



This information is rather outdated as all but Mechtilde are deceased, as Kira died last month in London.  She was cremated, and her ashes were spread around a tree at Amorbach in Leiningen.  The tree was planted in honor of her birth.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 10:52:13 AM
Quote
Didn´t the youngest child die only aged some months?



Yes.  He was also conceived while his "father" was at the front.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 10:53:00 AM
Quote
They're ones that have been on ebay in the past. I bought a couple. I was organizing pictures and I came across ones I'd saved. I think the last one is of Marie K and Kyra--it was marked just that way. I don't think it's Missy.


"Kyra"  wrote her name as Kira.  
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Emilia on October 14, 2005, 11:11:01 AM
Quote


Yes.  He was also conceived while his "father" was at the front.

His "father"? Wasn´t his father his real father or what do you mean?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 11:16:53 AM
Quote
His "father"? Wasn´t his father his real father or what do you mean?



The understanding is that the younger children were not actually fathered by the prince of Leiningen but by one of the staff
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Emilia on October 14, 2005, 11:23:32 AM
Oh, interesting! Thank you, Mrs. Koenig for this explanation!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 12:54:44 PM
Quote
Oh, interesting! Thank you, Mrs. Koenig for this explanation!



However, the children were attributed to Leiningen because he was married to their mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Valmont on October 14, 2005, 03:06:53 PM
Do you know who staff member  they  attributed the younger children?
On the same hand, which of the younger children we would be talking about?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 03:17:18 PM
Quote
Do you know who staff member  they  attributed the younger children?
On the same hand, which of the younger children we would be talking about?



Certainly, the 2 youngest ...  As the particular staff has not been publicly identified in any book - even mine -- I am going to refrain from identifying the position, except to say that the story has never been denied.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 14, 2005, 03:58:30 PM
Dear Mrs. Koenig,

Thank you for the insight on this generation of the Serene House of Leiningen. I would be curious to know the year of the prince's capture by Soviet troops? It is good to know that the confidence concerning the staff member is in pectore. If one revealed the stories that every prince or duke told, then one would soon be excluded from future conversations.

Respectfully,

David
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Valmont on October 14, 2005, 05:15:04 PM
Somehow, this post sounded to me like very subtle threat... But I'll follow David's advise and keep my mouth shut or I will no longer be invited to any "day with the royal guys" anymore...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 14, 2005, 05:38:42 PM
Dear Valmont,

If that was a threat then it was so subtle that I missed it all together. I have known quite a few members of various European, African and Asian royal families over the years and the one thing that they all share is a strong dislike of gossip, especially when it is about their family.

Best wishes,

David
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on October 14, 2005, 07:27:02 PM
Quote
Dear Mrs. Koenig,

Thank you for the insight on this generation of the Serene House of Leiningen. I would be curious to know the year of the prince's capture by Soviet troops? It is good to know that the confidence concerning the staff member is in pectore. If one revealed the stories that every prince or duke told, then one would soon be excluded from future conversations.

Respectfully,

David



I shall keep it in pectore here, but there are people who do know - and I should add that royals do like to gossip about their relatives ... I heard the story from two different royal relatives
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 15, 2005, 02:11:33 AM
Dear Mrs. Koenig,

Your experience with royals is very different than mine. In two circumstances with which I am very familiar and the headship of the house is in dispute, gossip about the family takes on a great seriousness.

Respectfully,

David
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on November 24, 2005, 07:40:39 AM
Some more portraits

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/kyrill.jpg)

GD Kyrill Vladimirovitch
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alixz on November 28, 2005, 06:31:35 PM
I have always thought that Alix would have turned in her grave at the thought of Ducky's children now being the conduit for the "legitimate" Russian line.

Imagine, the woman who divorced her brother Ernie and married her husband's cousin in direct violation of a number of secular and religious laws finally had the last laugh.  If any laughter there was to be had.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 28, 2005, 07:38:04 PM
I have always been amazed when Ernie is held up as such a good husband for Victoria Melita. Which one of you women who always praise him would marry a homosexual who liked stable boys and servants over the company of his own wife?

Why does Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna get a pass for divorcing a homosexual and Victoria Melita always receives scorn?

David

PS: Grandduchessella, I have been a regular on alt.talk.royalty (where debate is a form of blood sport) for many years, I suspect that you have read many of my posts on the topic of succession.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2005, 08:04:00 PM
Quote
Vladimir and his wife were more outraged at Kyril's punishment than at his marriage. That is all I know. :-[

BTW, did the Tsar ever officially condone Kyril and Ducky's marriage?


Yes. Condone is not the correct description. The Emperor approved the marriage years after the fact. It was therefore dynastic and their children all had succession rights.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2005, 08:09:11 PM
Quote
I have always been amazed when Ernie is held up as such a good husband for Victoria Melita. Which one of you women who always praise him would marry a homosexual who liked stable boys and servants over the company of his own wife?

Why does Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna get a pass for divorcing a homosexual and Victoria Melita always receives scorn?

David

PS: Grandduchessella, I have been a regular on alt.talk.royalty (where debate is a form of blood sport) for many years, I suspect that you have read many of my posts on the topic of succession.


David - maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see anyone pitching Ernst Ludwig as an ideal husband. If I did miss it please point me in the direction of that post.

I certainly don't scorn Victoria Melita for marrying either of the first cousins she did. And, if she was unfulfilled in her marriage to EL I certainly don't fault her, in answering your question for myself only.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 28, 2005, 09:10:30 PM
Dear Lisa,

I was not referring to this thread specifically when I made the statement about Ernie receiving undeserved support over Victoria Melita. I simply object to the general leaning of this forum favouring Ernie and Aleksandra Feodorovna against Victoria Melita.


David
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 01, 2005, 11:03:00 AM
There was nothing wrong with Victoria Melita; just read her biography. She was born a royal princess, died a Grand Duchess, and yet did not not have that much of a happy life. She is the direct ancestor of the current Romanov claimants.Victoria Melita's second marriage was legitimate, at last she found love. But Kyril let her down in the end, too. So I think she was a fascinating but not so famous and rather misunderstood woman. Her first marriage cannot be wished on a horse, but Ernest Ludwig was not a bad man, just someone who was not of the proper inclinations for marriage. I'm guessing he wouldn't have married at all if there had not been the succession to Hesse-Darmstadt to think of. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2005, 03:14:26 PM
Quote
PS: Grandduchessella, I have been a regular on alt.talk.royalty (where debate is a form of blood sport) for many years, I suspect that you have read many of my posts on the topic of succession.


I'm sure I have as your name sounded familiar. I only drop in anymore to search the archives for certain topics as it's just way to scary a place for me.  :) I referred to the Grand Duke as 'Ernie' and Victoria Melita as 'Ducky' and about had my head taken off.  :-/

I confess that I'm not really that knowledgable on the ins & outs of the succession and basically just know the bare-bones facts rather than having a more in-depth knowledge.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2005, 03:19:53 PM
Quote
There was nothing wrong with Victoria Melita; just read her biography. She was born a royal princess, died a Grand Duchess, and yet did not not have that much of a happy life. She is the direct ancestor of the current Romanov claimants.Victoria Melita's second marriage was legitimate, at last she found love. But Kyril let her down in the end, too. So I think she was a fascinating but not so famous and rather misunderstood woman. Her first marriage cannot be wished on a horse, but Ernest Ludwig was not a bad man, just someone who was not of the proper inclinations for marriage. I'm guessing he wouldn't have married at all if there had not been the succession to Hesse-Darmstadt to think of. ;)


Hard to say--KR was, at least, bisexual, and yet was a good and loving husband to Mavra. His diaries detail both aspects of his life. It could be done if the personalities were in sympathy with each other. Ernie and Ducky just never should've been married. I don't think, given their temperaments, that they would've been happy regardless of whether or not Ernie was of homosexual tendencies. While I'm not fan of Kyril's (to say the least) his more unemotional demeanor (Missy called him The Marble Man) probably helped to soothe Ducky's well-documented passionate temperament whereas with Ernie, being high-strung and sensitive himself, it was probably more like pouring gasoline on the fire. When the unhappiness of the marriage was gossiped about within the family, it seems that this clash was what mentioned over and over. QV realized it was a disaster and I don't think she was referencing any 'stable boy' rumors. Bottom line, it worked out better for both of them to split, no doubt, despite how Ducky's 2nd marriage concluded.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 02, 2005, 10:56:14 AM
Yes, it  did work better for them to split, and her second marriage brought her much happiness and no grief until the end. Ernest Ludwig did marry again and have two healthy sons for the duchy of Hesse Darmstadt. His second wife was a minor german princess Eleanor of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, and she was very tolerant woman who was maybe more in sync with his personality, so that worked out.Victoria Melita and Ernest were different people in just about everything; and that doesn't make a happy marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 01, 2006, 09:20:51 PM
The problem with Ducky was that she was never in love with Ernie, and that she did things rather half-heartedly. By the time she married Cyril, she was much more mature and she shared his ambitions. That is why it was such a let down when she knew her husband had another woman. She lost the will to carry on after that... :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on January 02, 2006, 02:54:06 PM
but was it really just that? the shock seems too big for it... i mean, not that she would have let another woman sleep with her husband and ignore it, but i think it was more than that...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on January 02, 2006, 03:56:55 PM
I think the answer lies in her personality.

This is all speculation on my part but if it was 'just' another woman it could still devastate her to that extreme. She was someone who didn't let many people get really close to her--it seems basically Missy and Kyrill. If you let someone into your heart, against your basic nature, and they committed such a betrayal--especially after all they'd endured to marry and then suffered after the Revolution--it might completely destroy you. It seems Missy was the only one who never let her down.  :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Laura_ on January 02, 2006, 04:54:35 PM
yes, Missy was the only one,wonderful stated grandduchessella  :)Missy was the only person who really understood and loved Ducky,and she was always there for her unfortunate sister til  the end

Laura
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on January 04, 2006, 04:33:51 AM
ok maybe ducky would have been as shocked as she was because of another woman. but missy? missy surely saw her share of simmilar affairs in her life and i don't think she wouldn't have been as shocked as ducky... not talk about it to anyone? what's with the big secrecy?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on January 04, 2006, 07:45:02 AM
She might have been shocked given her knowledge of how much Ducky & Kyrill had loved each other. If it had been an arranged marriage like her own, or so many others, probably not. Missy was worldy but she also maintained a romantic and idealistic nature. As for the secrecy, Missy could be diplomatic. Ducky's children were living when she wrote her memoirs--why cause them pain? We don't know what might be in letters somewhere or in correspondence that no longer exists. I don't think that Missy would've cared to air her beloved sister's dirty laundry.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2006, 09:09:29 AM
Yes. Ducky was unbending and couldn't take a failure. The failure of her marriage to Ernie was hard on her, even though she didn't ask for it in the first place.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on January 05, 2006, 03:50:53 AM
i don't think missy would have showed her sister's dirty laundry to the world... but i think she would have talked to someone and we would have had at least a clue or something...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 06, 2006, 05:01:45 AM
Quote
ok maybe ducky would have been as shocked as she was because of another woman. but missy? missy surely saw her share of simmilar affairs in her life and i don't think she wouldn't have been as shocked as ducky... not talk about it to anyone? what's with the big secrecy?


Well, we can only speculate about all that secrecy. What could we think out in our all-knowing and experienced modern epoch? Ducky would have catched Kyrill with another woman, Ducky would have catched Kyril with a man, Ducky would have catched Kyril with 2 women, Ducky would have catched Kyril ...and so on and such like. In fact if seeing the situation simpler...She loved him but he cheated on her! Great blow for immensely proud woman!...The emotional experience was very hard for her... and possibly,if we imagine there was another woman, that woman might be a close friend of Ducky? close friend of all family?? It's always harder to know that your CLOSE friends have mocked at you   :( :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2006, 10:14:21 PM
Interestingly, the third person was not known to outsiders, so it could have been any one. The thing that jarred Ducky was that she put a lot of faith, hope and trust into this relationship. She could have blamed grandmama queen for her first marriage, but couldn't this time. It was interesting that after this incident, her attitude towards England softened.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 16, 2006, 07:14:28 AM
By the way, if we speak about last years of Ducky and Kyrill...

Very symbolic picture, isn't it?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/KRfamily/kd.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 17, 2006, 12:41:19 AM
Not so happy photo but the family is united. Ducky holds baby Vladimir on her lap.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/KRfamily/kdfam.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 17, 2006, 01:27:38 AM
Pre- WW I years. Ducky and Kyrill are going on autotour in Sweden.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/KyrillDuckyAutotourSweden-.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Laura_ on January 17, 2006, 02:12:15 AM
haven't seen these,thanks for posting, the second one is a rare one with Ducky smiling :)she seems happy in that one...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2006, 10:19:24 AM
I do wonder where and when it was taken.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2006, 12:22:09 AM
Possibly 1912-1913 years in Sweden. I can't remember exactly.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2006, 05:47:04 AM
Ducky with her needlework

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/ducky.jpg)

The caption says: "Grand Duchess Viktoria, spouse of Grand Duke Kyrill, at needlework (embroidery). Saint-Briac".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 16, 2006, 08:52:52 AM
By chance, does anyone know if Ducky and Kyril had anyone who accompanied them out of Russia to Finland in 1917? I thought I read that they had several servants that accompanied them on during their "escape" from Russia (I am referring to the train ride not the daring hike across the icy Gulf of Finland with Kyril carrying the pregnant Ducky).

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2006, 09:58:56 AM
It would have been difficult for Kirill to carry Ducky across the Gulf of Finland in June.  No ice.  Moreover, they were able to make arrangements to leave, and they did not leave together.  See Kirill's memoirs for a description of the departure.

Quote
By chance, does anyone know if Ducky and Kyril had anyone who accompanied them out of Russia to Finland in 1917? I thought I read that they had several servants that accompanied them on during their "escape" from Russia (I am referring to the train ride not the daring hike across the icy Gulf of Finland with Kyril carrying the pregnant Ducky).

Thanks!

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2006, 10:01:51 AM
Quote
I was just reading about Bridal Choices and how first cousins are forbidden by the Russian Orthodox Church to marry. How did Kyril and Ducky get passed this law. What was the reaction of Vladimir and his wife and the Duchess of Edinburgh?

Louise


The Orthodox church also forbids marriages between second cousins and third cousins.  However, the Russian emperor, according to the Pauline, law, has the final say over marriages.  In July 1907, the marriage was approved by Nicholas ... He ordered that Maria be added to the Family book (which proves membership in the Imperial Family - this happens for births), and Kira of course was also added, when she was born.  Wladimir would have been added, of course, but circumstances made it impossible.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 16, 2006, 04:37:07 PM
I was only joking about them leaving via the ice. I had remembered reading about that somewhere before.

I was just wondering if they had a faithful maid or nurse that accompanied them.

I had heard about Kirill's memories but I'm not sure where to look for them.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 17, 2006, 12:16:36 AM
Quote
I was only joking about them leaving via the ice. I had remembered reading about that somewhere before.



One can find such "exciting" info in memories of GD Vladimir Kyrillovich! ;) He seriously wrote about this "ice-journey" of his parents.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 17, 2006, 08:37:58 AM
It certainly sounds more exciting than a train ride! Did both Vladimir Kirillovich and his father write about this (I'm just a little confused if they both have published memoirs or not).

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 09:28:54 AM
Quote
It certainly sounds more exciting than a train ride! Did both Vladimir Kirillovich and his father write about this (I'm just a little confused if they both have published memoirs or not).

Thanks!



Kirill's memoirs do not mention the ice .. his book was published in English.   You could start to see if your library can get it through interlibrary loan.  Wladimir's memoirs were published in Russian
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 09:29:54 AM
Quote
It certainly sounds more exciting than a train ride!

Thanks!


but difficult as there was no ice.   There has been only one person to be able to walk on water.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2006, 09:38:41 AM
Now swimming across in the frigid water would've made for an exciting story.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 17, 2006, 11:30:51 AM
 Anyway, I have always heard the ice story, but it just might be a legend more or less, if it was June, and Kyril's memoirs never mention it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 17, 2006, 11:35:18 AM
I think it was actually Sandro who first introduced the fabrication of the "icy" escape of Kirill and his family in his autobiography.

Someone mentioned that Kirill and Ducky did not leave together. I thought they both left on a train?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 17, 2006, 11:48:01 AM
That's interesting, and possible that Sandro introduced this as fact in one of his books. Certainly, it is a sort of legend that crops up in the history of the Romanovs, about the ice. It would be interesting to know if this orginated with Sandro.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 17, 2006, 11:54:04 AM
When library opens again next week, I'll go and see what his book says about the escape of  Kirill and family.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 17, 2006, 12:04:32 PM
Yes, because it might be from there. I read it a long time ago, so I am not sure. It sounds familar, but that might be because it is such widespread legend.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 01:47:26 PM


I am not at home to check the book ... but if I recall (and I could be wrong), Kirill left separately, and Ducky and the girls together.

Quote
I think it was actually Sandro who first introduced the fabrication of the "icy" escape of Kirill and his family in his autobiography.

Someone mentioned that Kirill and Ducky did not leave together. I thought they both left on a train?

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 01:49:17 PM
Quote
Anyway, I have always heard the ice story, but it just might be a legend more or less, if it was June, and Kyril's memoirs never mention it.



It was June (Wladimir was born in Finland in August), and the Gulf of Finland was not frozen.  Cold, perhaps, but not frozen.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 17, 2006, 03:48:26 PM
Quote

I am not at home to check the book ... but if I recall (and I could be wrong), Kirill left separately, and Ducky and the girls together.



Kyrill writes in his memoirs that 1st he left Russia with the girls in June 1917, and then Ducky separately.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 17, 2006, 04:08:17 PM
Very interesting... Is it known why they did this?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 18, 2006, 01:09:40 AM
Kyrill did not tell more about his departure. I think they did so for their safety.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: hikaru on March 18, 2006, 09:23:39 PM
According to his memoirs book in Russian, he left with daughters by the train in June of 1917. Then Ducky went after them.
Their departure was prepared secretly.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 20, 2006, 09:53:17 AM
That surprises me. I thought that they had received permission from the government to leave. Was it probably due to their status as Romanovs that they still had to leave secretly?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 20, 2006, 01:30:51 PM
That could be. I always thought they had some level of permission to leave, at least. If they left secretly then it would have to involve their status as Romanovs, I would think.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 20, 2006, 02:08:00 PM
Quote
That could be. I always thought they had some level of permission to leave, at least. If they left secretly then it would have to involve their status as Romanovs, I would think.


They did have government permission to leave but the government in power was weak and there was a strong element of anarchy in Russia prior to the Revolution and for some years afterward.

Remember that Kerensky sent the IF to Siberia in secrecy for much the same reason - there were people who wanted to capture them and so they left in a Japanese Red Cross train - or so it appeared.

Similarly, while Kerensky did approve Kiril and family departing Russia, there were those who wanted to capture them, too. So it was sensible for them to not go together and sensible that they not appear to be fleeing.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 20, 2006, 02:57:19 PM
Very interesting... From many of the books I've read they simply boarded a train together and left. Thanks for all the details everyone.

P.S. Has anyone seen any pictures of Princesses Marie and Kira at the time of the Revolution?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 20, 2006, 10:11:45 PM
Here's what Flight of the Romanovs has to say:

'The first Romanov to flee Russia was Kyril....he left for Finland in June. He took...Ducky and their two daughters with hi. Kyril and Ducky had a relatively comfortable and easy train ride from Petrograd to Finland, only a few hours. But the legend grew, and was apparently accepted even by some of the family, that Kryil heroically escaped Russia by corssing a frozen Gulf of Finland by foot, carrying his wfie with him, a feat hard to imagine in the heat of June...Kyril chose his destination well...Still nominally a Russian province, it was enjoying increasing independence. German interest in Finland during WW1 was growing....For a Romanov refuge, Finland was safer than Petrograd yet conveniently close to Russia....[They] first stayed in Borga, a small town..just east of Helsinki, where Ducky gave birth...the family moved to the nearby estate of haikko, loaned to them by friends...The priest who officiated was summoned from Petrograd, and he brought with him [in late 1917] a christening bowl from the Winter Palace and the imperial register. Vladimir thus became the last Romanov to be carried on the family roster...But ordinary life was not easy. Kyril himself had to go out and scour the market for provisions. Ducky wrote letters to relativse abroad beseeching them to send food tiny Vladimir could eat...In the first few weeks of summer, George Mikhailovich also went to Finland, but, unlike Kyril, he would return to the captial later.'

Poor George.  :'(  Demonstrates a bit how the true gravity of the situation still wasn't understood by members of the family--even those directly involved.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 21, 2006, 09:50:17 AM
Yes, I am sure they did not want to appear to be fleeing, although they were in truth. That is sensible. Perhaps it is easy to over dramatize such things, as the drama was in the fact, not the way it was done. Perhaps we always think fleeing has to be dramatic. Anyway, I think by then the members of Imperial Family left in Russia did realize the gravity of their sitiuation to some degree, but their foreign royal relatives safe in their own countries may not have. But then, it was easy to be optimistic, for ''hope springs eternal''.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 21, 2006, 06:04:32 PM
I looked through Sandro's autobiography and from the way he describes it, he heard the story from Kirill (I have no idea how often or if at all the communicated after the Revolution-I guess it does make sense because they both ended up in France). He also adds how the Bolsheviks were hot on their tail as they crossed the frozen Gulf of Finland (on foot).

Maybe Kirill was trying to pull Sandro's leg and his joke ended up making its way into Romanov lore.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 22, 2006, 12:44:39 AM
Quote
Maybe Kirill was trying to pull Sandro's leg and his joke ended up making its way into Romanov lore.


Maybe! :) Probably Kyrill just wanted to cut a dash! ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 22, 2006, 08:10:08 AM
 I do agree. There is something about making your escape sound more heroic than it was. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 22, 2006, 07:19:54 PM
Especially when many of your relatives regard you with contempt for your actions immediately following the Abdication and you have hopes of being declared Emperor.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 23, 2006, 11:06:38 AM
Yes, he had hopes of being declared Emperor, although he pretty much regarded himself as this already.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 26, 2006, 01:49:17 PM
Has anyone ever seen any pictures of Vladimir Kirillovich as a baby while the family was in Findland? I have only seen pictures of him when older. I would especially like to see pictures of him as a baby with his sisters.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 26, 2006, 11:40:31 PM
It seems there is a picture of baby Vladimir with his mother somewhere...possibly on gettyimages. :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2006, 08:34:57 AM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/romanov/504682971.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 27, 2006, 09:27:56 AM
Thank you! That is a great picture. It's just too bad the site had to put their title right over baby Vladimir's head!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 27, 2006, 10:26:58 AM
It is a great photo! I had never seen it before.. Ducky looks kind of woren in it doesn't she compared to other photos taken earlier? I have always thought she was beautiful, just in a rather different way than some. How soon was this taken after their flight from Russia ( which it was, I suppose)?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 27, 2006, 12:41:03 PM
Thank you! Those pictures are exactly what I was looking for!

I've always thought Kirill and Ducky usually look so gloomy in most of their photographs. It is nice to see Ducky smiling (or at least almost!) with her infant son.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 27, 2006, 02:19:46 PM
I had posted this picture on another thread but just in case.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/KRfamily/kdfam.jpg)

Ducky holds baby Vladimir.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 27, 2006, 02:45:58 PM
Thank you! Another great picture. I wonder where Kira was?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2006, 10:02:32 PM
Great photos! Are they from a book? It's so hard to find photos of Ducky in that period of her life.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Helene on March 27, 2006, 10:20:10 PM
On the complete picture Kira is on the left, do you have others pictures, Svetabel, from this section ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 27, 2006, 11:31:56 PM
Quote
On the complete picture Kira is on the left, do you have others pictures, Svetabel, from this section ?

No, only that one. :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 29, 2006, 08:16:23 AM
It does seem that at this point in her life, pictures of Ducky are rare. I enjoyed seeing those. When you refer to Kyra, do you refer to Ducky and Kyril Vladmirvich's daughter, or someone else? I am not sure, but that Kyra married a German Prince later in life, and she lived a full, relatively long life, although she died at a younger age than some. I believe she had children? The daughters of Ducky's second marriage did not bear  the stunning resemblance to Ducky that the daughter of her first marriage, Elizabeth of Hesse did, but you see echoes of Elizabeth of Hesse, who looked much like her mother, in Kyra and her sister, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 29, 2006, 09:19:44 AM
Yes, I was refering to their daughter Princess Kira. She had such a cute smile when she was younger. Her sister Marie, in my opinion, looked a lot like her father, especially the eyes.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 29, 2006, 10:33:57 AM
Yes, Princess Kyra married a German Prince, and didn't live a really long life, I would think she had children. Either her or her sister's later years were very hard, which led to early death. It was either her or her sister that married a Prince of the house of Prussia. One of the sisters did look more like her mother, one like her father, I agree.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: mitia on March 29, 2006, 10:36:24 AM
(http://[URL=http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i207/lentlandtom/medaillon_victoria_melita.jpg][IMG]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i207/lentlandtom/th_medaillon_victoria_melita.jpg)[/URL]
[/img]

In case it may be  interesting for some of you, here is a photo of the In Memoriam Plaque that we have over here in Saint-Briac for Victoria Melita. We also have a street named Rue du Grand Duc, and of course the house where Victoria Melita and her family spent their many years of exile, and where her daughter Kira died, is in perfect order . The house was named KER ARGONID by Victoria Melita which means  CHEZ VICTORIA or AT VICTORIA ' S in Brittany local language. The family still comes for holidays several times a year.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Emilia on March 29, 2006, 11:36:39 AM
Quote
Yes, Princess Kyra married a German Prince, and didn't live a really long life, I would think she had children. Either her or her sister's later years were very hard, which led to early death. It was either her or her sister that married a Prince of the house of Prussia. One of the sisters did look more like her mother, one like her father, I agree.

She was married to Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, the Kaiser´s grandson and succesor as head of the house. They had 7 children, 4 boys and 3 girls, if I remember correcty, quite a large family! They seemed to have enjoyed a happy and harmonious marriage... :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 29, 2006, 01:13:16 PM
Kirill always seems so serious! You'd think he could at least crack a smile like Ducky is doing when they're with their son.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 29, 2006, 01:23:30 PM
Yes, you are right about Kyra, she did have a happy marriage, I belive. Marie, I believe lived longer, also married a German Prince, and died in 1967. Kyra died in 1951. I read that biography of Victoria Melita called A Fatal Passion, I believe, about two years ago. It has been accused of being over dramatic, has anyone else read this and what did they think? Lots of my information is from there and perhaps some of my conclusions as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 29, 2006, 02:32:59 PM


Kira died in 1967, and Marie died in 1951.    A Fatal Passion is a book riddled with errors ... the author did not even know that Ducky and Kirill's remains were no longer at Coburg,  but brought to St. Petersburg, several years before the book came out.

Marie was married to the Prince of Leiningen - a marriage that the family did not consider good enough for a Romanov ... although Marie was said to be in love with her husband, the marriage did suffer from Marie's infidelity  -- her youngest two children, and most definitely her youngest son were not fathered by her husband.

Quote
Yes, you are right about Kyra, she did have a happy marriage, I belive. Marie, I believe lived longer, also married a German Prince, and died in 1967. Kyra died in 1951. I read that biography of Victoria Melita called A Fatal Passion, I believe, about two years ago. It has been accused of being over dramatic, has anyone else read this and what did they think? Lots of my information is from there and perhaps some of my conclusions as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Christopher on March 30, 2006, 08:13:09 AM
Quote
I read that biography of Victoria Melita called A Fatal Passion, I believe, about two years ago. It has been accused of being over dramatic, has anyone else read this and what did they think? Lots of my information is from there and perhaps some of my conclusions as well.

Yes, I have that book and it is overly dramatic, and, as Marlene stated, riddled with errors as well.  It is also one-sided.  The entire book seemed to be focused on the theme "Poor Ducky", smarter than everyone else, not to blame for all of her problems, in other words, a big pity party for Ducky.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 30, 2006, 10:36:39 AM
Yes, I will go check out the threads on Kyra. There is another book about Ducky as well, which I have never read, perhaps it is better. Of course Ducky wasn't perfect, but she is often thought of badly. Of her daughters, it is Kyra that it is allegedly the more tragic one, as interpreted in that book. But she did have a happy marriage, and I believe she was faithful, unlike Marie.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2006, 11:12:09 AM
The other book is Princess Victoria Melita by John van der Kiste. It's okay--nothing earth-shattering--but it lays facts out well-enough.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 30, 2006, 12:47:00 PM
I have never read that one- although I have looked into getting ahold of it. I think perhaps having only read the other one is too biased. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 30, 2006, 01:32:12 PM
The problem,  as with all of John's books, is that the information is culled from previous sources (and there is not a lot to cull from with VM because she left a limited paper trail).  John is a good writer, but he's not very good at going beyond the traditional sources -- going out of the box, for example/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 31, 2006, 12:24:04 AM
I'd say that Van der Kiste's book on Ducky is rather good but dull. :-/ and  the author really doesn't try to go beyond the well-known sources.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 31, 2006, 08:24:31 AM
Well, then it seems that there really isn't a complete, good biography of Ducky out there, which is too bad given that the other one wasn't published that long ago. The other author goes out of the box quite a bit, perhaps too much. This one sounds like it's just prosaic, official royal history. I have read that sort-informative, and not much else. It seems sad that Ducky doesn't have an all around good biography.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dp5486 on March 31, 2006, 12:24:36 PM
I know it's a long shot but I was wondering if it is known if Princesses Marie and Kira knew of their deceased half-sister Elisabeth or if their mother ever talked about her with them.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 31, 2006, 01:11:39 PM
Quote
Well, then it seems that there really isn't a complete, good biography of Ducky out there, which is too bad given that the other one wasn't published that long ago. The other author goes out of the box quite a bit, perhaps too much. This one sounds like it's just prosaic, official royal history. I have read that sort-informative, and not much else. It seems sad that Ducky doesn't have an all around good biography.


Ducky didn't leave much of a paper trail, meaning diaries, letters, etc ... if there is anything it would be in the possession of Grand Duchess Maria
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on March 31, 2006, 01:13:51 PM
Quote
I know it's a long shot but I was wondering if it is known if Princesses Marie and Kira knew of their deceased half-sister Elisabeth or if their mother ever talked about her with them.

Thanks!

I would suspect that kira and Marie knew their mother had been married before, and they had a half-sister, but as Ducky never left a diary, that we know of, and or if there is correspondence between the sisters and their mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on March 31, 2006, 04:27:35 PM
Quote
Well, then it seems that there really isn't a complete, good biography of Ducky out there, which is too bad given that the other one wasn't published that long ago. The other author goes out of the box quite a bit, perhaps too much. This one sounds like it's just prosaic, official royal history. I have read that sort-informative, and not much else. It seems sad that Ducky doesn't have an all around good biography.

I don't know if it'll happen. There are Marie's letters and their mother's but there doesn't seem to be a lot written by Ducky herself. The majority of the information seems to come from observers of her and that viewpoint is often contradictory. Because of this, most of a book seems to hinge on the author's own opinion of Ducky. In the case of Fatal Passion it was very pro-VM. Or you get the 'just the facts' style of van der Kiste. His books are good starter books because they give you some basics without having to go to a bunch of other sources but you're not going to get any in-depth analysis.

Makes me miss having a Hannah Pakula (author of what, is in my opinion, the book on Vicky and a really good one on Missy) or a Theo Aronson. I really hope Pakula will write again.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Christopher on April 01, 2006, 10:30:11 PM
Quote
The problem,  as with all of John's books, is that the information is culled from previous sources (and there is not a lot to cull from with VM because she left a limited paper trail).  John is a good writer, but he's not very good at going beyond the traditional sources -- going out of the box, for example/
I thought the same thing about the one he wrote about Xenia Alexandrovna.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Christopher on April 01, 2006, 10:33:39 PM
Quote
Quote
Makes me miss having a Hannah Pakula (author of what, is in my opinion, the book on Vicky and a really good one on Missy) or a Theo Aronson. I really hope Pakula will write again.

I always thought Pakula would be a good one to write about Marie of Coburg.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ena on April 01, 2006, 11:40:11 PM
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I always thought Pakula would be a good one to write about Marie of Coburg.
I would love to see a book on Marie of Coburg.  I find her to be so fascinating and although I got a lot more info about her in "The Grand Duchesses", it left me wanting a single book on her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Christopher on April 02, 2006, 05:38:25 PM
I haven't read Grand Duchesses yet, but am looking forward to it.  It is on my wish list.  I've heard it's really good. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on April 02, 2006, 06:02:19 PM
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Quote
I always thought Pakula would be a good one to write about Marie of Coburg.
I would love to see a book on Marie of Coburg.  I find her to be so fascinating and although I got a lot more info about her in "The Grand Duchesses", it left me wanting a single book on her.

I'd love it too. It was said once on the Forum that John Wimbles was going to be writing a book on her and was going through her letters and doing research but now it doesn't seem that's happening.  :(

He wrote some articles using them though--I haven't read any myself though--but from what has been quoted on various threads here, her letters are really interesting and she had a lot of insight into the lives of her famous children.

Some of her letters to friends and family--such as Jenny Churchill and George V--show a friendlier, softer side than we often see when we read about her. It's interesting to 'hear' her in her own voice.

Her life story--pampered only daughter to the Tsar of Russia to an up & down marriage that brought her into Queen Victoria's family (and thus involved with most royal families)  to the scandalous lives of her children to her life in Coburg to WW1 to relative poverty before her death--that trajectory, combined with her personality, just calls out for a book to me.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 02, 2006, 06:37:09 PM
Yes, it is hard to know if Ducky will ever get a all around good biography.. it does seem hard to be unbiased about her-it is either one way or the other, she is very esteemed or she is not, and if there isn't a lot she wrote herself that makes it even harder. I agree that Pakula is a great author.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on April 23, 2006, 04:50:20 AM
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. Ducky had a good marriage with Cyril until the revealation of an affair on the part of her husband. Poor Ducky cannot live with such "imperfection" and lost the will to go on.

Quite understandable if it's considered that Kyrill WAS NOTHING without Ducky. It was she who supported and directed  him after 1917 year, after all post-Revolution troubles.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 23, 2006, 05:07:03 AM
Yes...Kyrill was such a louse ! Poor Ducky took care of the situation and struggle togather as a team. That was her reward... >:(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Yseult on April 23, 2006, 05:44:47 AM
Mnnn...

I must confess that I feel a certain dislike to Kyril. Or, to be honest, I feel a deep, deep dislike to Kyril  ::) But Ducky is a more sympathetic figure...a woman that held her dream and paid the price for it. She was in love with her russian cousin and fighted against wind and tide to marry him, after the scandalous divorce with her first husband. I can understad how much she suffered when a lot of years later Kyril had a liaison with another woman... In fact, I always suspected that he had more than a liaison. Well, I´m speculating, but I think that Ducky felt so hurted and despaired because he had more than a flirt, more than a night of passion out of her bed...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 23, 2006, 07:32:40 AM
Yes...I agree with you. It must have been a laison of a period of time. Ducky felt so betrayed...It was then she started to give up on the fight. She was not like her sister Missy, Louise of Tuscany or "Cousin Charley" (Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen), who can get into an affair lightly or Aunt Alix (Queen Alexandra) who smothered her children to forget her martial disapointments... :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 24, 2006, 10:38:58 AM
Ducky was human, and not so rigidly royal as many other royals of that time. She always acted on, and wanted the truth for herself, so it was natural for her to want the truth in others, especially the mn she married, the first more arranged, the second out of love. She stood by Kyril until in her mind, he betrayed her, and that was unforgivable, perhaps more so when she had done so much for him. Not what most royals of that age would have done, but very understandable in human terms. I don't think Ducky was selfish, she simply wanted of others what she did, even if that was something that was not understandable to want of them. She also wanted truth, too much, not realizing things can't always be absulute truth.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 24, 2006, 11:06:49 AM
Yes...but sometimes truth is the most bitter thing to endure. For Ducky, for had such high expectations for her second marriage (which she paid with her reputation and shame of exile), the truth that Cyril needed another woman is too much for her to bear. Perhaps she pushed too hard ? Yet, Ducky did not retailiate with another affair, she just gave up. As far as Cyril is concerned, he had made a mockery of their wedding vows and the life they had built togather. For that she couldn't forgive him...to the last.  :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 24, 2006, 11:23:40 AM
I think for Ducky, that the truth was the most bitter thing to endure, even if that was what she insisted on,all the time. What Kyril did was typical of the grand dukes, what Ducky did was not so typical at all. A traditional wife of a grand duke would either have put up with it, and acted like it didn't exist, or taken a lover of her own. Ducky did neither, which you have to give her credit for, but she ought to have more forgiving. Perhaps Ducky took betrayl harder than most people, or interpreted it harder, at least if she thought she was commited to that person, who betrayed her. She was commited to Kyril.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 24, 2006, 09:40:44 PM
Yes...especially the hurdles that they had to go through to get married, edure the uncertainty of the exile. Leter Ducky and Cyril had to re-ajusted the life after the revolution, the birth of the heir (Vladimir) and setting up court in exile in France. Ducky had put her heart and mind into the life they spent togather (unlike other arranged marriages (like her first)). To betray her like that was almost to say what they had was fools gold. Ducky was a strong woman, but unfortunately a sensative one as well.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 25, 2006, 09:58:27 AM
That's a very good analaysis of why Ducky felt specifically betrayed, those are the reasons. Ducky could be called overly sensitive, I would think, and was defintely not a person who realized it can't just be the straight and narrow. She wasn't a traditional Romanov wife in this way, although it no doubt would have been easier to accept, had it been an arranged marriage, there would have been less feeling involved, either in the good or bad.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 25, 2006, 10:56:42 AM
Indeed ! Ducky cannot be called a typical "Romanov" wife. She who divorced her husband (unheard of in those days) and married a close relative (despite according to "The Rudder", such a close relationship between cousins cannot marry in the Russian Orthodox Church). Ducky braved the cold shoulders, vicious lies and gossips, and exile to win this marriage. She felt sure that Cyril was "the one" for her, and that she iwas willing to sacrifice everything. It was a cruel joke for her to discover that this "special" relationship, her soulmate could betray her. I think part of the hurt was acyually target at herself (how could she have been so blinded ?). No... she could not forgive Cyril, but can she forgive herself....unfortunately the answer was no as well... :-?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 25, 2006, 11:22:28 AM
Ducky did indeed go through alot merely to marry Kyril, and and put in alot of time and ability in his claims to be Tsar, and then when he did what lots of Grand Dukes did, and something that was fairly common in the Romanov Family, and have a affair, she felt betrayed. Her first husband was said not be faithful to her either ( with men), but although it aroused her ire, was nothing like it was with Kyril. Also, you made a great observation when you said she likely blamed herself for investing so much time, and effort into marrying Kyril, and then his claims to the throne, and likely coudn't forgive herself. Thus, her attitude towards herself was the same as her attitude towards others-damaging to her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 25, 2006, 12:12:24 PM
Yes...That is what I called the "just and fair" part of the nature of Ducky. It was cruel what Cyril did to her, but what did she expect ? She led herself put Cyril on a pedestal, and when he turned out to be just an "ordinary" grand duke, she cannot take it. Ducky had the same situation with Ernie, and in her letters blaming herself by trying to imagine Ernie to be something he wasn't. When this happened a second time with Cyril, shwe felt not only betrayal, but failure as well. Missy was quite right to say that Ducky was "the most unforgiving of us all" and gean to die " by inches". In the end, she died "a bitter and Diapointed woman"... :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 26, 2006, 10:21:38 AM
She did die a bitter and disapointed woman, when it wasn't neccesary for her to, as she could just gave changed her views, and the way she did things. But this was such an essesntial part of her, and her personality that it would have very hard for her to change it, which was sad. She did put her second husband on a pedestal, perhaps in part because of her first marriage, and in part due to personality. This was defintely unwise, as we are all human. She was  being very modern in feeling betrayed due to what Kyril, did, in attitudes towards marriage, but it wasn't in general, it was personal. Her first husband she no doubt held before her as well, as something he was not, although perhaps a bit less, as she cared less for him. Her attitude was unfortunate, and this may have lead to her relatively early death. As far as I know, the attraction between her and Kyril was pretty instant, and mutual, and was after she married Ernie, although perhaps she had some feelings towards Kyril before, but nothing as deep as later.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 26, 2006, 11:42:04 AM
Yes...however it did not became serious as she did later. Ducky did not give up on Ernie until the last attempt to have a baby (she miscarried). She could have had an affair with Cyril (Like Missy did with Boris), but that was not in her nature.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 26, 2006, 12:16:38 PM
Exactly, it happened during her marriage, but she did her best to make the marriage with Ernie work, until their son was miscarried in 1900. She has to be given credit for this, for her and Ernie were not on good terms then, although she was under much pressure to save the marriage. She struggled with her feelings for Kyril, but wanted marriage, nothing else. It's said her sister Missy carried on a affair with Grand Duke Boris, Kyril's brother, and that one  of her oldest daughters ( Mignon?) could have been the Grand Duke's child. I am not sure if there is any truth in this.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 03, 2006, 11:33:23 AM
He also married another strong woman as well...I don't know how Ducky would react to Leonida...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 04, 2006, 09:56:51 AM
oh yes, that might have been interesting, but history never showed what might have happened there. Ducky really did die relatively younger, although she did live to see both her daughters marry, I believe? Are there some pictures of, and lists of both her grand children from her daughter's marriages? How did she get along with her daughter's husband's? I think that one daughter married in her lifetime.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on May 05, 2006, 01:27:05 AM
Quote
Ducky really did die relatively younger, although she did live to see both her daughters marry, I believe? .

 Ducky died before Kyra's marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: bell_the_cat on May 05, 2006, 05:33:26 AM
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Quote
Ducky really did die relatively younger, although she did live to see both her daughters marry, I believe? .

 Ducky died before Kyra's marriage.

Yes, GD Cyril attended the wedding alone.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 05, 2006, 08:32:04 AM
Thanks. I wasn't sure about that. I'm not sure how many, if any grand childen from her daughters she lived to see.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 05, 2006, 11:42:16 AM
I must buy is Charlotte Zeepvat's book on the royal nany's tale "From Cradle to Crown". Princess Nicholas of Greece's trusted nanny Kate Fox, wrote of how unruly Ducky's daughters were (especially the elder Marshka, who did not even looked cute)...Worth a look for one inerested at the mother espect of royal mothers.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: bell_the_cat on May 05, 2006, 11:56:25 PM
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Thanks. I wasn't sure about that. I'm not sure how many, if any grand childen from her daughters she lived to see.

She had five grandchildren by Marie before she died  :). It was while visiting Marie for the birth of No. 5 that she had her stroke.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 08, 2006, 08:42:53 AM
I'm glad that she was able to see some grand children from Marie. She didn't really see the other branches of her descendants though.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 08, 2006, 05:50:24 PM
I don't know if Ducky would accept Leonida though, as Baby Bee flatly refused to recieve her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on May 09, 2006, 06:30:47 AM
Quote
I don't know if Ducky would accept Leonida though, as Baby Bee flatly refused to recieve her.


Seems stupid to me. Leonida was just as royal as say Onor.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 09, 2006, 09:17:52 AM
I think Leonida was indeed royalty, albeit minor royalty, like Onor. I don't know if Ducky would have accepted her or not-it would have been interesting. Ducky was unconventional, and rather hard to get on with- so perhaps not.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 09, 2006, 01:20:31 PM
No...not because she was royal or not, but because of her unsavory reputation in Madrid. Her brother was one of the lovers of Infanta Eulalia, and much things happen in their palace. Baby Bee held this against her and told Vladimir flatly that he will never recieve him if he married Leonida. After the marriage, she never did...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 10, 2006, 08:51:57 AM
That's very interesting about Baby Bee and Leonida. Ducky may well have taken her sister's side if she got along with this sister at the time, and had she lived. I think she got on pretty well with her youngest sister, but I'm not sure of that. Ducky wasn't like most royalty in some ways though, because she herself had gotten divorced, and she paid more attention sometimes to truth than social niceties.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 10, 2006, 10:28:19 AM
I am glad that I found this great thread! Thanks to all who posted pictures and lists of Ducky's grand children, who she lived to see. Marie wasn't as much a beauty as her sister, and had a sad life. It seems her marriage wasn't happy, although it might have been at first. I would imagine it was equal, as they say. He wasn't a commoner. Different people have different opinions on gossip. When it it still affecting living people, it is sometimes sensitive. But usually such things eventually become known as historic truth. It would be nice to have death dates as well as birth dates on Marie's kids. What country does her surviving daughter reside in?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on May 10, 2006, 11:18:20 AM
I don't know if it was. Leiningen (while well-connected) was a mediatized house. Since Maria had been elevated to a Grand Duchess, I don't know if her marriage was considered equal or not. It certainly wasn't a bad one considering the situation post-WW1 but not as spectacular as Kyra's to the heir to the Hohenzollern throne. Perhaps one of our royal genealogists can help clarify?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 11, 2006, 09:06:08 AM
Yes, perhaps in the strict sense it would not be considered equal. But it wasn't like many of the morgantic wives of the Grand Dukes, who were most often divorced commoners.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 13, 2006, 03:44:53 AM
Well...Baby Bee was partially to blame as they met during the time Vladimir was in Madrid. I guess if Ducky was alive, she would have selected someone more suitable earlier.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on May 15, 2006, 06:09:38 AM
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No...not because she was royal or not, but because of her unsavory reputation in Madrid. Her brother was one of the lovers of Infanta Eulalia, and much things happen in their palace. Baby Bee held this against her and told Vladimir flatly that he will never recieve him if he married Leonida. After the marriage, she never did...


I am sure Leonida's daughter's fortune played some part in this.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on May 15, 2006, 11:32:13 PM
Quote
Quote
No...not because she was royal or not, but because of her unsavory reputation in Madrid. Her brother was one of the lovers of Infanta Eulalia, and much things happen in their palace. Baby Bee held this against her and told Vladimir flatly that he will never recieve him if he married Leonida. After the marriage, she never did...


I am sure Leonida's daughter's fortune played somw part in this.

TampaBay
Which of her daughters do you mean -  Helen Kirbey or Gdss Maria?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on May 16, 2006, 06:02:16 AM
I wonder if Vladimir would have married Leonida if her daughter (Helen Kirby) had not been an heiress.  It is my understanding that Vladimir had almost no money whatsoever.

I am not saying that he did not love Leonida.  I am sure he did.  However, I am sure there were other factors in the match with money being one of them.

It would be interesting to know what Ducky thoughts might have been.  It will also be interesting to see who Grand Duke George marries.

TampaBay

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 17, 2006, 08:27:45 AM
That is a good image of the couple. I had never seen the image of the older Ducky before, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 18, 2006, 04:00:50 PM
I'm sure Vladimir did care for Leonida. I think it is likely Ducky would have arranged a marriage for him earlier, her knowing how important it was he married a completely royal, suitable bride. There were some questions cast on his choice of Leonida, so I doubt Ducky would have chosen her. Money was a factor, defintely, but also a suitable royal bride. I think Leonida was royal enough-it wasn't like the morgantic marriages that many granddukes made. But questions are always cast on it by opponents- of which Ducky, had she lived, may have become one. But it would most likely not have happened had she lived.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 18, 2006, 06:44:17 PM
You said right...The problem with Leonida did not lie with her royalty (she was as royal as Princess Tatiana Constantinovitch (Grand Duke Constantine the younger's daughter)'s husband) but with her behavoir in the Madrid set (which was rumoured to be quite wild). Baby Bee based her dissaproval on that. I was told that Vladimir was besotted with Leonida once he saw her...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 19, 2006, 12:04:36 PM
That is interesting, about where the issue lay with Leonida. Ducky may or may not have disapproved, but she would have selected someone she deemed suitable far earlier one thinks. I agree that Leonida was as royal as the prince that Tatiana K., daughter of Grand Duke K.R. married.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 19, 2006, 09:24:52 PM
Yes especially if that person will help Vladimir's cause in Russia. I guess most likely perhaps a daughter of Crown Princess Cecilie or Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Scherwin.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 22, 2006, 04:25:28 PM
Oh yes, she would have wanted someone who would advance his cause, not be to the detriment of it, which Leonida rather was, because of claims that the marriage was not equal. I'm not sure of the ones you mention, but they might have been more suitable.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on May 22, 2006, 08:30:23 PM
Quote
Oh yes, she would have wanted someone who would advance his cause, not be to the detriment of it, which Leonida rather was, because of claims that the marriage was not equal. I'm not sure of the ones you mention, but they might have been more suitable.

I have heard this over and over again.  If Onor in her marriage to Ernie was considered equal, I do not see how Leonida would not be considered equal.  Leonida's family ruled the Kingdom of Russian Georiga did they not?  To my knowledge Onor's family never ruled a kingdom did they?  Did they not only rule less than a duchy?

We must get Marlene to visit our discussion.  Marlene, where are you when one needs to borrow your brain? ;) ;) ;)

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 22, 2006, 09:48:11 PM
Although I agree that Leonida was plenty royal enough for Vladimir, I think the problem stemmed from the fact that Leonida came from a non reigning family, and Onor came from a reining one, although it was very small.

It seems to me like I remember reading (I can't remember where) that some people were even opposed to the marriage between Ernie and Onor because of unequal births.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 22, 2006, 10:04:11 PM
Yes...I think Leonida's ruling or non-ruling class was not an important issue. In the end, the Imperial family in exile accepted the marriage and their daughter Grand Duchess Maria. However the marriage of Maria to a Prussian prince, and the establishment of a Hohenzollern to a Romanov throne was unacceptable to quite a number of the Romanov family in exile. Whereas Baby Bee's objection to Leonida was based on her reputation and behavior. A mirror situation happened when Queen Charlotte refused to recieve her own niece, the thrice married Frederica, Princess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, who married Charlotte's son the Duke of Cumberland.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on May 24, 2006, 04:53:36 PM
That is interesting. I must say you know much more than I do about these marriages, so thanks for everything you post. On my part, it's more speculation on what Victoria Melita might have thought, not good reasons. But of course she didn't live to see the marriage of her son. It's always interesting to debate why some marriages were considered equal and others were not although they both involved royalty.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2006, 09:52:49 PM
Yes...even Ducky's repuation as "The Fighting Grand Duchess" while she was married to Ernie was not a complement as far as the court in Berlin was concerned. They knew of her affair with Krill and Marie's affairs during her "butterfly years". It was therefore quite curious that she managed to befirend the straight-laced Kaiserin Dona.  :-?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Sissi on June 20, 2006, 01:19:21 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ducky4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Sissi on June 23, 2006, 02:24:34 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/duckyandxenia.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ducky7.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on August 12, 2006, 09:13:35 AM
A postcard . Kyrill, Vladimir and Viktoria as "the Imperial Family"

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/card.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Lemur on October 12, 2006, 09:23:39 AM
I read in a book, I believe it was Greg King's "Man Who Killed Rasputin", that Kyril and Ducky took up with Hitler while Paris was occupied by the Nazis, had dinner with him, and even had their pictures taken with him. Does anyone have any of these pictures? I am sure the family has done their best to hide them. I can only imagine the shame and disgrace of it all!

Could it possibly be that Kyril was doing this thinking that in case Hitler was able to take over Russia, he might restore him to the throne?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on October 12, 2006, 10:52:31 AM
I think Kyril and Ducky were misled by the initial stuff with Hitler,etc. Kyril lived to be more aware, but Ducky never did. I think, they, like some of their royal relatives did put their hopes on Hitler,etc, because he seemed to be something he wasn't. They didn't know the truth, and that I am sure he didn't respect royalty, nor would he restore them to their positions of that past. I think on the part of some royalty, there a hope that they would be restored to some of their past positions through them. They were very wrong..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: James1941 on October 12, 2006, 03:31:54 PM
Lemur,I think you have confused some facts in this case. The Germans did not occupy Paris and France until June, 1940. Hitler only visited the city once, for a few hours in the morning, shortly after it fell.
Victoria M died in 1936 and Kyril died in 1938 so it was impossible for them to have visited Hitler at all in 1940.
They do seem to have been attracted to Nazism but whatever association they had with it had to have been in Germany, not France.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on October 12, 2006, 04:08:49 PM
There's a good section in the book Who Financed Hitler that deals with Ducky's involvement with the Nazi movement, including her fund-raising for the party. The book is readily available online. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on October 13, 2006, 08:49:07 AM
That sounds interesting. Really, neither Kyril not Ducky lived to see what all this really meant. Had they done so, they might well have not had anything to do with it. They didn't see the full implications from that vantage point in time. It is sad though..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Keith on October 28, 2006, 03:25:00 PM
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/fajack/Ducky.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 28, 2006, 08:19:06 PM
Yes...That is the "sheep photo"...Was it deleted from future editions of the Van De Kiste book ? ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Keith on October 29, 2006, 05:32:29 AM
It seems like it was. I have the pb and hb edition of Theo Aronson's "Princess Alice" and the pb doesn't have all the photo's the hb has. Not sure why they do things like that.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on October 30, 2006, 12:45:51 PM
It is sad that Ducky took Kyril's betrayl so hard, but then, at the same time, a divorce might have been even more damaging than the private hell that Ducky undoubtedly out herself through. I would argue that Ducky would have acted this way anyway, even if she had divorced him though. She always took things hard, no matter what solution she found for them in the end.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 07:23:47 PM
Indeed...It was sad that she had to take it all herself. I am sure Missy saw that coming and tried to help.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 30, 2006, 08:25:20 PM
The picture of Ducky is charming! never seen her so happy and looks nothing like a duck in that photo.when she frowns, she does look like a duck!  ;) :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 08:53:39 PM
She did looked funny...Although she wouldn't be amused if someone told her so.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on October 31, 2006, 01:51:48 AM
The picture of Ducky is charming! never seen her so happy and looks nothing like a duck in that photo.when she frowns, she does look like a duck!  ;) :)

maybe that's where her nickname comes from ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on October 31, 2006, 08:57:38 AM
Yes, I wish I knew where her nickname came from. But, like some other more important things about Ducky, it will remain forever a mystery perhaps, at least to me. ;) I am sure Missy wished to help her, but Ducky did like to go it on her own, and once she had some idea in her head, it was hard to change her mind.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 01, 2006, 12:31:10 PM
Maybe we should continue the Ducky- Miechen discussion here. ;) I think you are right Ducky was stubborn, but she had so many other wonderful qualities that are to be admired as well as  just being stubborn. Miechen was an imposing mother in law for her, and I am sure of that, but I am also sure that she was never intimdated by her. Ducky wasn't the type to be intimidated by anyone, even the very formidable Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 01, 2006, 07:46:08 PM
With all due respects to the many that feel otherwise, I am firmly among those that do not admire Victoria Melita.  I find her cold, unforgiving, humorless, and unattractive. Everything with her was always someone else's fault (Ernie, Alix, Nicky, QV,George V,Xenia,Mavra, the Buchanans,even Kirill), never her own. 

I do not see her as even belonging in the Hesse Darmstadt forum, but I guess it is hard to place her anywhere.  She doesn't belong placed with her English relatives, because she did not identify with her English family either.  I find the whole Vladimirovich family to have been backstabbers. Ducky's role as Kirill's "empress" was absurd.

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 01, 2006, 07:56:16 PM
Well, I think she had to support him, even if she disagreed with his Imperial ambitions which were rather a farce at times. Many people thought Kyril was silly in his claim, and many of the Romanovs did not support his claim.He was very serious though, and  had a mock court, etc. But I feel Ducky was never as much a diehard on Imperial succession as her husband. She just went along, and was no doubt grateful for something to keep her husband occupied in exile. That's not to say that she didn't believe that he was right about the succession, I am sure she did believe that he was right. She had humour, and she didn't totally blame others, she merely took the slightest things hard, that others did to her. She was also quite stubborn and unforgiving if wronged, or if she percieved she was wronged. But thanks for adding your views. You raised some interesting points.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2006, 08:05:51 PM
I agree it is always interesting to hear opposing arguments. I cannot say that I like Michen & Kyrill much either ! Ducky was herself and did not care much about what people thought of her.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 02, 2006, 04:18:46 AM
I found it appalling that after all the intriguing against Nicky and Alix leading up to the Revolution, Ducky was writing letters "desperately" wondering what happened to them once it was all over. I think hers was a definite case of getting what she wished for, and still being miserable.

She seemed to have a knack for lost causes.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2006, 04:51:29 AM
Well...I think it was Vladimir and Michen that started the intrigues and Kyrill was definitely inheited that ambition. Ducky was drawn into it, but as every wife must "stand by her man", she did picked sides once she married into "that" particular family. I do not know how much intrigues was Ducky personally invloved against Alicky & Nicky.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 02, 2006, 05:49:55 AM
Ducky was proactive with the Vladimirovich gang in further undermining Nicky and Alix. She was advising who could be trusted and who could not be trusted to join in with them. Ducky herself was not overly popular within the Romanov family, so she was probably trying to get in tighter with them.

Ducky and Alix probably did not ever get on well together (surface politeness aside), and Alix always seemed to be stealing her thunder, so it seemed to be "Ducky's turn". 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2006, 11:01:14 AM
That seems true. You would have thought that Miechen, and Ducky both strong women with formidable personalities would have not gotten along, but perhaps they both knew the experience of the alienation that times their personalities produced. But I think Miechen had more pride, and cared more about what others thought of her than Ducky. She was more social, and she knew more of what she wanted in a public sense. Ducky was more private. Both were controversial.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2006, 11:04:36 AM
I agree Ducky and Alexandra didn't get along, something that went back to the bitter divorce of Ernest, Alexandra's brother, and Ducky. Ducky was not really of the Romanovs, because of the controversy that her marriage with Kyril caused, and also because the Vladmirvitchi were quite controversial, and they were separate from the Romanovs. I think that Ducky was standing by her man more than anything else, but perhaps her personal feelings were in this as well. She was always one apart.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 10:49:14 AM
Well, she did stand by her man, but I wonder if her own feelings were not in there somewhere as well. She did feel that after all she had gone through with Kyril, she must stand by him, which she did. But, as well, she might have agreed even if she did not do so as much as he, because he really believed he was Czar. I think Ducky tends to be identified with the Vladimirvitchi because she married into them, but she wasn't always like them, one way or the other. Does anyone know what Ducky's take on imposters was?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 10:52:45 AM
Let's get back to Ducky and the Vladimirvitchi. Do you think that just because she was marrried to Kyril she gets identified with the Vladmirvitchi too much? I think while many of their agendas were hers, she really wasn't one of them, as her marriage was controversial, not fully accepted at first, and she never really got the chance to  be a member of the IF. She never really played the role of Grand Duchess in accordance with her marriage, and the branch of the family that she belonged to.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on November 03, 2006, 02:46:30 PM
Let's get back to Ducky and the Vladimirvitchi. Do you think that just because she was marrried to Kyril she gets identified with the Vladmirvitchi too much? I think while many of their agendas were hers, she really wasn't one of them, as her marriage was controversial, not fully accepted at first, and she never really got the chance to  be a member of the IF. She never really played the role of Grand Duchess in accordance with her marriage, and the branch of the family that she belonged to.

Ducky does indeed get identified with the Vladmirovitchi too much.  But I do think that of all the other GD that married into the family and were not born with the title, Ducky did have the distinction of being very Russian in her thinking already - from her mother.  More so than Missy who was more English.  Perhaps this prepared Ducky for the role she had to play in IF even if it wasn't REALLY a GD in accordance w/her marriage.  I believe she felt more a part of the IF than her English one.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2006, 10:26:15 PM
True...Although like Missy, she could be very English too. A visit to her niece Princess Marina's marriage in London, envoked all the old feelings...back to the days of Eastwell Park and Clarence House.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2006, 10:27:37 PM
I don't think that she had a seperate view on this situation but followed Kyrill's lead.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on November 06, 2006, 03:13:48 AM
missy herself confessed to be fascinated with the russian culture. while it was not her own and could not completely identify with it, she was fascinated by her romanov relatives. probably ducky was too
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 06, 2006, 08:47:48 AM
It was most likely that way. I think she followed Kyril's lead publicly on matters like this. She might have had some reservations at times, but I think she had to be totally committed to him in public, which she always did, may I add. She most likely did have her separate views, but may never have expressed them. I would guess she probably agreed with him in private.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 06, 2006, 08:51:07 AM
I agree that Ducky was more Russian than anything else, and thus fit better into the Romanov family than elsewhere, at least in spirit. She seems to have been quite like them, and had her marriage been less controversial, and had the Revolution happened later, would have fit in quite well, but she never really got the time to have that role. But while Ducky was like the Vladmirvitchi in many ways, identifying her with all their bad traits really isn't fair to her, in my opinion. She is ofen criticised for their faults, which she may or may not have had.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2006, 08:49:53 PM
I agree. It is not fair to brand her with the Vladimir family (who harbour anbition for the throne since Michen married into the family). She was also very English too. She wrote to Missy about a trip to England spent with Grandmama, who she appreciated the English country life and how it did good to her to go back to her roots. She painted with Thora and rode with Ena in Balmoral.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 12:47:54 PM
Well, she was very Russian, but she as well was other things. I tend to think the Russian was the most prevalent in her though, of all things. In nature, personality, and all that she belonged to the Imperial Family, and her ties there were not only through marriage, but blood. I wasn't saying she wasn't Russian, nor that she wasn't one of the Vladmirvitchi, just that she should not have  all their negative qualities fall on her, and be guilty by association,etc.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 12:50:20 PM
I would not use the word facade, but rather spirit. She had no facade, but she had much spirit, and that really is the thing that gave her the courage to be as she was, and take on what she felt she must take on, etc. She felt that she must stand by her man, but of course the day came when that was no longer possible, and perhaps her own essential belief in herself was somehow gone at that point.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 07:54:22 PM
Well...She maintained outwardly supportive of Kyrill, but inside it must have killed her not to be able to speak her mind about how hurt she was about the discovery. Yes indeed she did not disclose this info but to a few close family & friends and sworn them to secretcy. Even Missy only hinted what Ducky went through, but it must be sad to see her sister slowly being eaten up by this fact.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 07:57:09 PM
I think there was a pull between English & Russian sides of her. As later in her life Ducky rediscovered her English side and got on very intimate terms with Georgie & May. The letters they exchanged was a proof of that.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 12:52:02 PM
Yes, she outwardly was loyal to him, and certainly didn't want it known what she was going through, perhaps more pride than anything else, or maybe it was a sense of failure, that she didn't want people to know what she had to face and suffer. I wonder, what it really was.. She was a contrast to royalty of the present day who certainly can't keep private things private, maybe had she lived in a later age, we would know more of what really happened, although she might not have disclosed it. :-\
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 12:55:23 PM
Yes, that might well be. I always think of Ducky as more Russian, because she was very much that in temprament, and as well, she married into, and was just very at home in a Russian setting, she was very passionate. I think her English side certainly never dominated in youth, she was more German then, and later Russian. But of course, all royalty was international, and that was a factor. It's interesting that you say she become ''more'' English later in life, I had never heard that before, maybe it was because her husband had betrayed her, and thus she turned more to her youthful roots?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2006, 08:04:29 PM
I agree that Ducky had a lot more Russian in her than Missy & Bee (both spent more time in England than Ducky or Sandra). However the English part was always there. A year before her divorce, Ducky took her daughter and spent some time with her grandmother in Balmoral. Ducky felt the cool English air and lovely countryside did her much good as she painted with Thora and rode with Ena. In the letter to Missy she talked about one's roots (she was a British Princess of the House of Edinburgh). Ducky went back to that theme later when she attended her niece Marina's wedding to May's son George. Once again, the English surroundings worked its magic on Ducky again.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2006, 08:06:52 PM
I think she would have had a divorce had she been younger & lived in a later age.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 11:11:47 AM
Well, I agree. I think Ducky was very Russian, and her first marriage was a mistake and it was her later marriage that fitted her identity, even though it betrayed her in the end, in the form of Kyril. She might have lost the identity she might have gained through him ( although, she was of course essentially Russian), and went back to earlier days, and things she had not forgotten.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 11:15:34 AM
Most likely, that is true, I think you are right. Had she been young in that era, maybe she would have, but I think it was the era and the circumstances that she found herself in that was the reason she did not divorce. She had divorced before, it had been a scandal, and she was pretty much trapped by circumstances. No wonder she felt as she did, in this sitiuation, I think. Had she been young, I still think she would not have divorced again.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 01:41:14 AM
Well...If her children were not "claimants for a vacant throne", Ducky would have more of a free rein of doing what she wanted. I don't she won't mind divorce again if she was younger and livied in a later period.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 01:51:26 AM
Yes...especially back to the days of carefreeness. The days spent at Eastwell and Clarence House were filled with fun and the days were so innocent. No wonder even Missy ( a confident queen of international standing) felt the urge to kiss the grown in England.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 10, 2006, 04:22:38 AM
Ducky and King George V exchanged some unpleasant letters in the aftermath of the Russian revolution.  I think that George V was affronted by Ducky's tone and lack of respect, and his last response to her did not even include the customary pleasantries that were hallmarks of his letters to relatives.

The insistance of imperial treatment by Princess Marinia's maternal relatives irritated George V during that wedding, and it marked the last time many of them were invited to England.

Ducky really does not seem to have been close to the British family at all if you compare her to her sisters Missy and Beatrice, and almost all of her cousins on her British side (with the exception of many of Vicky's children). She seems like she was friendly with Charlie Coburg, but they had their proactive and early embracing of the Nazi movement in common.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 08:41:25 AM
So that's the other side to it, is it not? Well, I think that Ducky enjoyed some carefree times in England, but that she was too different from them to ever completely fit in. She was more Russian, more Imperial, and perhaps too much of her German background as well. The Vladmirvitchi were always said to be haughty, of course that doesn't mean that Ducky was haughty, but she might have been called so. I think that relationship may have been mixed ( the one refered to below), because that's what I have always thought from what I've read.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 08:45:14 AM
Indeed, I agree. But, she must have felt that certain things about her children made her have stay to a certain path, and made her have to do certain things. She felt that their interests must be put above hers, and perhaps she was simply too old to care, as well. She must have felt she was in a certain position, and she did the best she could do, etc.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 08:46:11 AM
Ducky's letter was indeed belligerent and King George V was insulted by her disrepect.  She definitely was like her mother, I think in her Imperial Russian attitude, though she was very German in her sympathies.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 09:01:41 AM
You are completely right! Indeed, this was Ducky's character. I think she might have found some happiness in England, but that there were some darker things there. I always had those impressions, that she drifted away from England, and that was hard for her to look back, and that she might have found happiness in that past, but it could never have been her reality.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2006, 04:59:24 PM
They were given pretty high precedence at the wedding--number 11 after:

King Haakon & Queen Maud
King Christian X & Queen Alexandrine
King George II Greece
Prince and Princess Nicholas of Greece
Prince Regent Paul & Princess Olga of Yugoslavia
Princess Helene of Rumania
Crown Princess Juliana of the Netherlands
Prince Waldemar of Denmark
Prince Charles of Sweden
Comte de Flanders
Grand Duke & Grand Duchess Kyril
Prince Vladimir
Princess Kyra
Grand Duchess Xenia

Dmitri was also at the wedding.

Does anyone know when the ban on Grand Dukes was lifted? Dmitri was always allowed but others were denied permission.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 08:07:04 PM
Interesting....Ducky wrote glowing letters to Missy about the wedding and her nostlgia about the childhood in England.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 10, 2006, 10:44:25 PM
I'm sure it was a great occasion, and probably one of the few times Ducky and Kyril were at such a grand royal function after the Russian Revolution.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2006, 11:08:05 PM
Interesting....Ducky wrote glowing letters to Missy about the wedding and her nostlgia about the childhood in England.  ???

They were entertained at many public and private royal functions during the wedding--according to the Court Circular. The CC also listed them separately from some of the other royals who "arrived" at the Palace for some functions--did they reside there during their stay?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on November 11, 2006, 10:09:36 AM
What wedding are we talking about?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2006, 12:16:06 PM
Princess Marinas TB :).

I can't take to Ducky at all! I think she grew VERY bitter!!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 12, 2006, 07:53:21 PM
Well, it wasn't so much that she grew very bitter, is that she was always bitter. I think it was in her character, and it grew worse with the years because of circumstances, but that it was in her from the start. I wish we could know the truth, if she did find some happiness in England, or if it was mostly darker stuff, there seem to be two sides to it, and which is the truth? I fhave a hard time believing that she could have found complete happiness in England, although she perhaps could in reference to a very specific past, that of her childhood. As for the way her royal relatives regarded her, it seems the Vladmirvitchi were never popular at all with many of their royal relatives, and Ducky got associated with them. It seems the fact that her husband said he was Czar with the pretend court and everything might have made him more unpopular, and with her being his wife, her too.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2006, 10:02:57 PM
I think Kyrill seemed to be a strict parent and less indulgent than either Ernie or Nando.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 16, 2006, 11:00:32 AM
Kyril seems to have been the type who would be a bit strict as a parent, and perhaps rather distant. I have never read much about him as a parent, but don't think he doted on his children as Ernest did on Elizabeth, although that could have been an exception with her. Kyril seems cold in history, although he was not so to Ducky, and his children turned out quite well, so I would not judge him..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2006, 07:59:25 PM
Thank God indeed ! Nando was too much an ingulent parent to his sons and daughters and most became very "idivualistic" (especially Carol, Elisabetta and Nicholas). I think Kyrill was a good parent by the way his children turned out.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on November 16, 2006, 11:58:20 PM
Thank God indeed ! Nando was too much an ingulent parent to his sons and daughters and most became very "idivualistic" (especially Carol, Elisabetta and Nicholas). I think Kyrill was a good parent by the way his children turned out.  ;)

you can't always judge his parenting skills by the children. think of mignon and ileana - they didn't have much of a father in their lives either but both turned out quite well. some children grow up well and strong no matter how the parent is (not to say that a parent doesn't affect the child, they do, but sometimes you can simply overcome a parent's negligence...)

carol and elisabeta were the subject of many wars between missy and the "old court" because the "old court" believed her incapable of raising the heir to the throne. ferdinand might have agreed with her somewhere deep down inside but he was too weak to fight with her - he was educated to listen, not to fight.

nicholas i believe was plain and simple spoilt. he was a very cute child and his mischievous farces were regarded upon as funny ("haha, nicky is a good child, he's just fooling around"). that kind of thing probably taught him that he could do whatever he pleased.

kyrill and ducky (and also ernie and ducky) did not have to face any equivalent of the "old court" and they were both much too serious to think of any childish farce as funny. i don't think any of them had it in them to spoil anybody. their love was more of the restrained type (i think ducky was attracted by that in kyrill - sort of "he doesn't show much but when he does it means quite a lot") and i think it reflected on their children also.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2006, 08:55:19 AM
Well, I will say that that Duckys and Kyril's parenting was not controlled by anybody, and they were left alone to parent as they wished, as their children were not heirs, their marriage was disaproved of, and even had any one tried to influence their parenting, I doubt they could have done it. Ducky and Kyril were both independent minded, and would not have allowed their parenting to be controlled. Judging by their children, they weren't half bad as parents. Missy and her husband were dealing with a bad situation with their parenting, true. But Ducky and Kyril could have overcome it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on November 20, 2006, 12:01:25 AM
Well, I will say that that Duckys and Kyril's parenting was not controlled by anybody, and they were left alone to parent as they wished, as their children were not heirs, their marriage was disaproved of, and even had any one tried to influence their parenting, I doubt they could have done it. Ducky and Kyril were both independent minded, and would not have allowed their parenting to be controlled. Judging by their children, they weren't half bad as parents. Missy and her husband were dealing with a bad situation with their parenting, true. But Ducky and Kyril could have overcome it.

yes they would have but not because of ducky's personality rather than kyril's. because, unlike ferdinand, kyril was a strong person and he never would have let himself be pushed around the way ferdinand did.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 01:50:21 AM
Indeed ! However I don't think Ducky was one who spoil her children.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 08:36:21 AM
It seems her children were not spoiled. Ducky had too much common sense to spoil her children. She was not a very indulgent person towards herself, and still less so to her children, I would think. She seems to have taken responsibility for everything she ever did-almost too much at times. I disagree though that it only Kyril was strong, and would have resisted efforts on anyone's part to raise his children for him. Ducky was very strong, too, amd she would not have let anyone raise her children for her either.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 07:22:28 PM
I agree...Ducky was the force behind this couple. The evidence was that once Ducky passed away, Kyrill also started to slack as well. She was not known as the "fighting grand duchess" for nothing.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on November 20, 2006, 08:28:42 PM
I do not think Ducky and Kyril's children were particularly remarkable in any way.   Vladimir continued the pitiful mock imperial delusions.  Kyra seemed to have a normal pseudo-royal lifestyle but was low key and liked in the family.  Marie was a bit more unconventional with her lifestyle and affairs. I do not think the parents should get special kudos for their parenting.   
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 21, 2006, 12:47:10 PM
It is interesting though, that she was the only one of Ducky and Kyril's children who was said to have a private life like this, not that I know about the others. But, contrast that with what we know of the private lives of some of Missy's children, which is about the same, only that there were more who were like this. But Missy did try her best as a parent, it was really her inlaws who ruined some of her older children.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 08:04:36 PM
I know this could be considered off the subject but were these rumours about Marshka ever been written in a book ? I know about Marlene's book. Any other sources ? Thanks.

If Mashka was really like that, she may only be taking a leaf out of the lives of her mother and Aunt Missy (whose younger children were always doubted if they were her husband's).  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 10:55:41 PM
Just touched upon Mashka life on the Ducky thread. Would be interested to know more about her life.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on November 22, 2006, 03:08:28 AM
Just touched upon Mashka life on the Ducky thread. Would be interested to know more about her life.  ???

It's simply wonderful how you always name the Royals you never knew privately. Do you really think it's polite to call Maria Kyrillovna as "Mashka"? Even if it was her pet name it's not a reason to call her so, let me surprise you that in Russian "Mashka" sometimes sounds pejoratively.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 03:49:13 AM
What is pejoratively ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on November 22, 2006, 04:03:47 AM
What is pejoratively ?  ???

In derogative sense of a word (name).
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 09:37:37 AM
That would be interesting if such a name use as a nickame. Did Marie resent being called that ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on November 22, 2006, 03:44:18 PM
That would be interesting if such a name use as a nickame. Did Marie resent being called that ?  ???

I guess only Maria could answer the question.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 22, 2006, 04:55:34 PM
She doesn't seem like the type who would have had that for her pet name. As a new question, why weren't either of Ducky's daughters as strong as her, or as interesting? They both seem rather dull, while their mother and her sisters were such interesting women. As for whether she resented being called that, I believe that if it's her pet name, she would not have, but she married someone who was German, so I wonder if he would have called her that?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 07:19:15 PM
I think Mariya seemed a strong charecter. The tidbits about her from Merlene wetted my appetite for more info about her life since very little had been written about her.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on November 23, 2006, 03:32:00 AM
As a new question, why weren't either of Ducky's daughters as strong as her, or as interesting? They both seem rather dull.

I would not say that Kyra, for example, was dull. She was quite an interesting person and we don't know much on her though her brother GD Wladimir told about her in his memoirs with tender and love.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2006, 04:02:50 AM
I think Kira and her brother were quite close. Was Mariya and Kira as close too ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 24, 2006, 04:55:17 PM
Well, it seems her daughters weren't dull, but that they were not as interesting as Ducky, etc. I mean, it seems they had dramas in their lives, but they weren't as dramactic as their mother. It seems the best known of Ducky's children was her son, who it seems wasn't that much like her. Mariya did not have a very easy life though, so I suppose she was strong.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 26, 2006, 06:06:21 PM
All I really know I learned from this thread. I think there is much to learn here. Mariya had a hard life, and died at a relatively young age. She wasn't the dominating character of her mother, but it seems she forged her way through until she could not anymore.I think there should be more info on Ducky's daughters out there. Certainly, much is known of her son. But it seems her daughters are more shrouded in obscurity. Neither really had a taste of the life of imperual grand duchesses did they? They were both fairly young when the revolution happened.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2006, 07:45:57 PM
Indeed ! Both Mariya & Kira died rather mysteriously... ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 27, 2006, 08:21:28 AM
I would not say that Mariya's death was mysterious. She merely died at a rather young age after being just given too many things to handle. She wore herself out with all she had to deal with. As for Kyra, she died visting someone did she not, but it was a natural death, although unexpected. I think Mariya would have lived longer if it had not been for circumstances. Her death was more due to what happened to her than anything else.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 08:56:45 PM
Nope...read the stories of their circumstances of their death, it was a bit spooky.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on November 27, 2006, 10:20:49 PM
Here's what it says in The Grand Duchesses, published by Eurohistory:

Marie (by John van der Kiste)--'Widowed with six children to support, Marie's health also failed. She had always been overweight, and by the age of 40 she was a prey chronic heart trouble. In the autumn of 1951 she travelled to Madrid tos tay with her brother...but soon after arriving she suffered a heart attack and died on 25 October, aged only 44.'

Kira (by Marlene Eilers-Koening)--"Kira was visiting her brother...at St Briac when she suffered a stroke, 'brought on by her excessive fondness for food'. "[quote from Louis Ferdinand's autobiography]

I don't see anything particularly mysterious--it's a sad coincidence that both were taken ill while at Vladimir's. Is that what you're getting at?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 10:27:24 PM
Not only that...What happened to Mariya's body was also quite strange. I heard she was put into a coffin, but her family did not recieve her body until years later...Anyone with info on that. ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 28, 2006, 10:17:21 AM
There is nothing in those deaths that are strange. What is interesting is Ducky and both her daughters died at relatively young ages. Both Mariya and her mother were in tough circumstances near their deaths that caused them, in some respect. Ducky was bitter because of Kyril's betrayl, and Mariya had had much stuff thrown at her.That undoubtedly led to their deaths.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2006, 10:20:54 PM
Well...It was said that Mariya was put in a box (coffin) but it took the longest time in getting back to her family. When it got there the body was so decomposed that they didn't know that it was her or not. I think it was my friend Ricardo Mateos Sainz Metrano who told me this story.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on November 30, 2006, 10:41:16 AM
On another note, did Miechen ever want Ducky to have an heir ( largely to her own ambitions) earlier than 1917, when Vladimir was born? It seems to me, that with how important the succession was to her, that she might have been disapointed that Ducky's first two children were girls. Then there was some years before the birth of an heir, between him and the last daughter. I believe that Vladimir was her only male grandchild in the male line.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 01, 2006, 09:03:36 AM
I've never read anything that says that MA did put particular pressure on Kyril and Ducky for an heir, but she must have knowning her personality and ambitions. But these were her last years, as she died in 1920. She never really got to see this grandson. For a woman with so many Imperial ambitions, regarding her sons, they didn't have heirs, or make suitable marriages. Her son Andrei did supposedly ( his paternity was never sure), have an illegitimate son with Mathilde K.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 09:03:55 PM
Indeed...I don't know how Ducky felt about Boris and Andrei's morganetic families...Anyone with info ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 03, 2006, 07:18:45 PM
I think she didn't particularly care about it. It was no threat to her marriage or children, or possible dynastic ambitions for her children. If anything, it rather helped her, because her childern were the only young Vladimirvitchi in the male line, thus. I am not sure how she got along with these cousins, as well as inlaws, but I always thought the relationship was okay. I don't see any reason why it would not be.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2006, 08:56:02 PM
I only know she got along well with Helen (Princess Nicholas of Greece)'s family.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on December 03, 2006, 11:19:40 PM
Did Andrei's son have contact with any of Victoria Melita's children? That could be an indicator of how VM felt about the morganatic marriages.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 04, 2006, 08:38:29 AM
Well, in some ways her own marriage was so controversial, that maybe that would have made her more accepting or understanding about morgantic marriages. Her own marriage was like this, although it eventually got sorted out. She was not the most understanding of people though, so perhaps not. But, if she went through through similiar ciircumstances like those that went through morgantic marriages faced, that could have given her an ability to at least have felt some the same emotions those in morgantic marriages faced.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2006, 08:04:32 PM
True...Although her own royalty was unquestioned. I would not be surprised if the daughter of Marie Coburg looked down on a grand duke's mistress (ballerina or commoner). Certainly Baby Bee wasn't too pleased about Vladimir (Ducky's son)'s choice of a bride and told him that she would never see him again if he married her. He did and she never recieved him again (true to her word).  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 05, 2006, 10:08:03 AM
Well, all royalty or most looked down on these types of marriages. It was especially natural to do so in the Russian Imperial Family, one very aware of their importance. Thus, Victoria Melita's attitude would have been typical. I can't see it being worse than anybody else's though, or maybe that is just me. It would be interesting to know what she thought, because she as royalty, went through an unusual sitiuation with her marriage. Is there any evidence of which one of her children Victoria Melita was closest to?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 11:01:12 AM
I think Ducky was close to Kira and Vladimir...I heard she had problems with Mariya ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 08:37:40 AM
I never read that. That has a ring of truth, but without knowing much about her daughters personalities, and how they may have interacted with hers, it is hard to say, for me anyway. More is known of her son, and it seems they had an okay relationship, actually a very good one. The bio of Ducky doesn't really focus on her role as a mother, unfortunately. But maybe this wasn't a huge role in her life, despite the fact she had four children.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 10:09:18 AM
Yip  ! that aspect had not been done in English, although I heard Vladimir did mention his mother in his own bio (in French & Russian I heard).  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on December 06, 2006, 10:11:15 AM
I haven't  heard about the bio on Vladimir.  I guess that's not in English either. :( ???
I really need to learn Russian!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on December 06, 2006, 11:35:45 AM
I haven't  heard about the bio on Vladimir.  I guess that's not in English either. :( ???
I really need to learn Russian!

I guess Eric meant Vladimir's memoirs.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 12:56:46 PM
It seems that the biography of her focuses on her marriages and her personality. But, there is really so much more there, that has not been said anything about,  in the one biography I read, and I think in the other one. I like to speculate on that sort of stuff involving Ducky, because you can really speculate, in the absence of sources. Ducky was intricate a personality as any more documented royals. I'm sure Vladimir remembered her as a good mother, I would think. She must have known her husband's claim would be passed down to this son and his children after him ( his daughter), whatever she thought the future of the Imperial Family and the Succession would be.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 09:05:50 PM
Did someone read Vladimir's bio ? Did he mentioned much about his mother & sisters ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on December 07, 2006, 12:32:37 PM
Did someone read Vladimir's bio ? Did he mentioned much about his mother & sisters ?  ???

Of course he mentions his mother and sisters, I'd say many lines on his mother and few on sisters.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 07, 2006, 02:05:26 PM
Well, they were somewhat older than him, so he may have found it hard to relate, perhaps. I don't know what sort of relationships that they had, but I doubt it was bad. One of his sisters was about ten years older than he ( born 1907), and the other was born 1909, so eight years older than he. They also knew different circumstances in early childhood than he did, as he was born in the year of the revolution. I would love to read what he says about his mother, if only it wasn't in Russian.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2006, 07:50:09 PM
I heard he got on well with Kira, but I have not heard anything about the closeness between Vladimir & Mariya.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 10, 2006, 06:30:42 PM
I would love to learn more, but can really only speculate. Of his sisters, Mariya had the more difficult life. She may have been harder to get along with than Kyra from what I do know about her, as a person. This may have been a factor in their relationship. Kyra seems like she was a easier to know person, but that's just my take from what I know which is rather limited. Vladimir had the most opportunity to see his parent's court in exile because he was the youngest, and the heir, and thus to inheirit the Imperial ambitions. I would be interested in what his sisters thought of those.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on December 10, 2006, 10:04:49 PM
I would think that Kira would've known as much, if not more, about her parent's 'court'. She was born in 1909 and didn't marry until 1938--2 years after her mother died and just months before her father's death. Vladimir was 8 years younger than she and not even 20 when his mother died.

There's a thread on Kira--she seems to have emerged from all the Victoria Melita/Kyril drama a fairly normal and likable person, as well as the one who made the marriage which would've pleased her dynastically-minded parents the most--marrying the heir to the Hohenzollern throne, Louis Ferdinand.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2006, 12:36:25 AM
Indeed ! She seemed to be the "good girl" in the family, while Mariya was the "bad girl" and Vladimir was "the rebel".  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 11, 2006, 08:57:59 AM
That could well be, in my opinion. I was just saying that, for the girls, they were not the heirs to the Imperial ambitions of their parents in quite the way Vladimir was, being the son. But, they had been born into Imperial Russia, although I am not sure how much they remembered of it.They might had had more sense of things from there as well, perhaps. I too, have always had the impression that Kyra was more likable than Mariya. I can see her getting along with Vladimir pretty easily then.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2006, 08:43:49 PM
I think Kira stayed longer with the family while Mariya married quite early.  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on December 11, 2006, 09:10:45 PM
Marie married in 1925, at the age of (barely) 18, while Kira married in 1938, 5 days short of her 29 birthday.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2006, 01:35:13 AM
Yes...That is why I think Kira would have a more closer relationship with Vladimir than Mariya. She stayed home longer.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 22, 2006, 01:38:50 PM
I like Kira more, and found her to be pretty. while Mariya was shout and not so pretty in my opinion.Plus of what i heard of Mariya, i am not so fond of her.
 Their cousins The Princesses Olga, Elizabeth and Marina were very pretty like their mother Grand Duchess Helen (exp Elizabeth and defiantly Marina!). But my favorite out of the Vladimirichi family is Princess Elizabeth of Greece (1904-1955).
 I have a photo of Ducky with her family (like about 1913-4) with her in-laws, including the Greek Princesses. I am sure it post in a topic about the Vladimirevichi family or the Grand Duchess Vladimir.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: carl fraley on December 24, 2006, 06:06:46 PM
WHile Ducky was in limbo before Kryil was back in favor, even had ducky not remarried she would have still been HRH, Princess of Coburg, and A princess of Great Britian etc...

in a private letter between M.A. Duchess of Coburg and M.F. marie was fussing that Cyril was just marring anyone but her (MA) daughter.  In a "Twiighlight of the Romanovs" it stated also that The Tsar allowed Cyril to retain his Title of Grand Duke but he was stripped of his income and property and banished.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 26, 2006, 11:58:11 AM
Do you have any more info on the statement you made about M. A, and M. F.? It interests me, and I guess I didn't quite understand what you were saying.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on December 26, 2006, 03:55:36 PM
Another interesting note on on this is that Ducky's marriage was far from morgantic as mentioned, but she must have gone through some of the same emotions that morgantic brides faced, as she was in many of the same circumstances. Her temprament wasn't one to make her relate to them though. I think hers was the only marriage of this kind, that was treated this way, or of that type. But, if Michael had married his cousin as he wanted to, who was actually Ducky's younger sister, that would have sparked the same situation. As I see it, I believe that this might have happened more as the Romanov Dynasty went on, if it had continued with equal marriages.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on December 26, 2006, 09:59:10 PM
Kirill was stripped of his military honors, his appanage, but he was not stripped of his Grand Ducal titles by Nicholas.

Quote

I've seen some of the letters on this in private Romanov hands, and while it's true that the title "Princess Kirillovsky" was bandied about by someone (I've never seen by whom) it would have been wrong-and KR is clearly wrong in thinking it would be correct and that it signified a morganatic marriage.  Whatever the objections to Kirill and Ducky's marriage, it wasn't morganatic by any stretch of the imagination-that term signifies marriage to a person of unequal rank, which Ducky most definitely was not.

I'll save my other arguments for the "Who is the rightful heir" thread.

Greg King

OK, sigh, back to the drawing board. I thought that answered the question. I mean, she must've been called SOMETHING back then. If Kyril wasn't a Grand Duke anymore, Princess Kyril? Just Princess Victoria?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Belochka on December 26, 2006, 10:42:19 PM
Kirill was stripped of his military honors, his appanage, but he was not stripped of his Grand Ducal titles by Nicholas.


Nikolai acted correctly.
 
Margarita
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: s66405h on January 05, 2007, 06:45:47 AM
Here's a couple of pictures of Ducky's husbands.  No wonder she left Ernest for Kyril  ;)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/s66405h/duckysfirsthusband.jpg)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/s66405h/duckyssecondhusband.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Linnea on January 05, 2007, 08:03:02 AM
This comparison is a bit unfair as  Kyril might have been around 25 and Ernest around 45 when these pictures were taken. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on January 05, 2007, 08:38:47 AM
Too true. Ernie was pretty good-looking (in the opinion of some, I don't care for either of their looks myself) at the time Ducky married him. He also aged better--Kyril did not age well at all.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 12, 2007, 08:17:33 PM
Too bad there had not been a full detailed bio on Ducky's daughters. The bios on Ducky did not touch deeply at her role as a mother.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 14, 2007, 12:37:55 PM
Unfortunately there wasn't much depth in her role as a mother to Princess Elisabeth of Hesse because of the situation.  But you are right, I would like to know more about her and her daughters by Kirill.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2007, 10:04:09 PM
Yes...None of the two bios have Ducky's letters to Marska (who was married and moved to Leiningen) or to her son-in-law. It is very unsatisfactory on the topic of Ducky as a mother.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 15, 2007, 06:30:53 PM
I used to have such a low opinion of Ducky.  But the more I learn of her, the more I respect such a fiercely loyal, brave straightforward woman.  Much like her mother.  How interesting it would be to know more of her writings as a mother, friend, etc..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2007, 07:47:31 PM
Indeed ! she was a straight-foward woman who does not like deception and lies. That was why she felt she couldn't live in one during both her marriages. The first one she left (since it wasn't her choosing) but the second time it killed her.... :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 21, 2007, 02:17:23 PM
Absolutely.  The second time around was for her a true love match and a relationship she gave her whole heart and soul to.  Whatever betrayal perpetrated upon her after all she'd given most surely would've killed her. :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2007, 06:58:37 PM
Yes...Missy said she was the most unforgiving person she knew...The bit was this time she cannot forgive both Cyril and...herself.  :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 22, 2007, 01:09:32 PM
Sadly, even on her deathbed she could not forgive him.  He stood at the doorway, supposedly, like a forlorn child while she lay dying. This according to A Fatal Passion.  Which also asserts even as she was in a half coma-like state she couldn't bear him to touch even her hand.  This according to Missy. :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on February 22, 2007, 05:30:29 PM
I suppose if she never forgave Kyril, that she most likely never forgave Ernest. There is little evidence available on what she thought of him in later years, but I don't think she ever forgot her youthful grudge against him, anymore than she forgot her more mature grudge against Kyril, if you could call it that. What is pretty much certain is she never forgave either one of them, although maybe they didn't deserve it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2007, 07:08:49 PM
Indeed ! Ducky did make a go in trying to make BOTH her marriages work, but in the end...BOTH failed. Where did you find the passage of Ducky not letting Cyril touch him...from Missy's letters ? I think it must be something so disgusting that Ducky didn't even want any contact with him. Wonder if Marshka, Kira and Vladimir knew the truth...?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 23, 2007, 09:09:37 AM
The part about Ducky and Kirill's touch is in a Fatal Passion but quoted from Missy's memories of her deathbed visit to her sister. :'(
I wonder about the children knowing as well, but from Missy's tone it seems very doubtful.  Missy seems to be the only one to truly know and kept her promise & took the secret w/her.  Of course, i can always be wrong about this.  In my own readings, i haven't come across anything about Ducky revealing something that personal to anybody but her sister.

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2007, 07:38:02 PM
Yes...Ducky would not have wanted her children to hate their father. She suffered alone.  :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 24, 2007, 05:19:02 PM
Thankfully she at least had Missy, (and vise versa) throughout their lives especially for suffering.  The difference being how Missy could turn this around to somehting positive while poor Ducky only saw things in black and white w/no gray area.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2007, 07:10:48 PM
Yes...One sister light the other dark. They complement each other.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 26, 2007, 10:02:42 AM
Yes, They support each other as bookends. ;)  One of the facets of their story that I find the most remarkable is their closeness.  It went above just a sister relationship.  I find this very refreshing considering there was very little release vavles open for members of royalty. Especially during the dark days of war and revolution. The only other bond I think could be considered comparable but not exact would be Minnie and Queen Alexandra.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on February 26, 2007, 03:52:09 PM
Yes...Ducky would not have wanted her children to hate their father. She suffered alone.  :'(

Yes, I am pretty sure they didn't know. Vladimir never gave any indication that he did as far as I know, although I suppose even if he had, since he regarded it as a secret, he might not, or he knew his mother would have wanted it regarded as so. About her daughters, I have never read they ever said anything about the subject, so it seems they didn't know. Ducky would not have wanted her children to know, perhaps because she regarded it as private as much as she didn't wish them to hate their father, and who knows if they would have? There isn't much about Ducky's role as mother to her children as noted before, so maybe this is just another area that hasn't been given much attention. If what Kyril did was infidelity. one wonders if one of Ducky's daughters at least who did exactly that could have condemned her father, and I don't know know about the other two children, they just might have seen it as typically Romanov, although I can see them taking it more seriously as well, in light of how much it obviously hurt their mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2007, 06:49:35 PM
Indeed ! Ducky was very much like Marie Coburg in being a mother, it is unlikely that she confided in her children her problems. I suspect the only one who knew was Missy. Yes I agree they were more than sisters, they were best friends to the last.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on February 28, 2007, 01:36:36 PM
It is interesting to note the physical toll it took on Ducky.  Missy was always able to hide behind her dramatic facade.  But Ducky's face reveals much.  Each required the other to "recharge" if you will, when they were at their lowest ebb.  Most definitely an uncommon bond. Even so Ducky was never one to play games, she was to impatient for them.  She also had little patience for insincerity.  After giving her life's blood to a man she thought was the be all end all, it is little surprising that it took such a physical toll. 

And since MA didn't confide much in her children as was pointed out, it is highly unlikely that anybody but Missy really knew what caused the rapid decline of her beloved sister.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 28, 2007, 07:15:25 PM
Yes I agree...That incident (of Cyril) pieced into Ducky's soul. She was never the same again. Ducky was game enough not to inform others of what Cyril did. Her face was a mask of tragedy after that... :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on March 01, 2007, 09:50:37 AM
Ducky believed so much in Kirill and his cause she wrote this to Missy during the February Revolution of 1917:

"yet heart and soul we are with this movement of freedom which at the same time probably signs our own death warrants.  We personally are losing all, our lives are changed at one blow and yet we are almost leading the movement...."

After that, it is clear how deeply Ducky was Kirill's soul mate and her willingness to believe in a cause that could have meant death for them all only to be betrayed by him later.  It's no wonder her looks changed.  From the inside out, she was clearly suffering. :(

Poor Ducky.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2007, 07:26:25 PM
Yes...I heard Cyril was crushed too. I don't think he long survived her death.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: lori_c on March 02, 2007, 09:48:12 AM
Yes. Ducky died March 1936 and Kirill passed on in October 1938.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2007, 01:31:43 AM
Indeed ! it was said that he was a broken man after his wife's death.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ilyala on March 03, 2007, 03:40:10 AM
Indeed ! it was said that he was a broken man after his wife's death.  :(

which means he truly loved her but he was stupid and messed it all up.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on March 03, 2007, 11:32:00 AM
Whe discussing Ducky hit has been stated many times that she was not close to her daughters.  Could someone elaborate on what the know about Ducky's relationship with her daughters.  I also believe I read somewhere that Ducky was not happy with her oldest daughtter's marriage match.  I wonder what she would have though of her son's choice for a wife?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2007, 07:25:40 PM
I read somewhere that Marshka was so hot that Ducky had to marry her off fairly early, whereas Kira was more balanced. Ducky also assisted in the births of her elder daughter (just like Marie Coburg did for Missy). That is all that I know about Ducky and her daughters. Any one who knows more is welcome to contribute.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 05, 2007, 10:12:33 AM
I read somewhere that Marshka was so hot that Ducky had to marry her off fairly early, whereas Kira was more balanced.

Let me respectively remind you ONE MORE time that Maria's nickname was Mashka, not MaRshka.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2007, 07:06:35 PM
Sorry...trying too fast.  :P Do you have anything to add in information other then correcting other people ?  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: TampaBay on March 05, 2007, 07:30:37 PM
I read somewhere that Marshka was so hot that Ducky had to marry her off fairly early, whereas Kira was more balanced. Ducky also assisted in the births of her elder daughter (just like Marie Coburg did for Missy). That is all that I know about Ducky and her daughters. Any one who knows more is welcome to contribute.

What do you mean by "hot".  Please elaborate as this word as a slang term term has many different meanings in many different cultures.

Thanks,

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2007, 07:33:23 PM
Well...passionate for the opposite sex.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 06, 2007, 01:39:36 AM
Sorry...trying too fast.  :P Do you have anything to add in information other then correcting other people ?  ::)

I corrected you as you constantly called Maria as MaRshka, not once.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 06, 2007, 04:18:26 AM
Eric hates being corrected - which seems to happen pretty often.  ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 06, 2007, 04:28:58 AM
I know I type too fast. Dears  ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: griffh on April 05, 2007, 09:25:20 PM
I think that it is interesting to ponder that the young Empress's brother, Ernest, had just married Princess Eleonore Of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich on Feb. 2, 1905 which was a short 8 months before the marriage of Ducky and Kyrill.  Ernie's re-marriage might have prompted, in some way, Kyrill and Victoria's decision to marry each other.  They had been involved since 1899 and had apparently consumated their love in 1900, according to Kryrill's statement, “The three weeks which I spent at Wolfsgarten in the autumn of 1900 were decisive for the whole of my life. Thereafter we were to meet as often as possible.”  In 1899 Ducky's sister, the Crown Princess Marie of Romania, had an affair with Zizi Cantacuzene which Marie's father-in-law, the King, spread all over Europe.  So we have a double scandal involving those two sisters at the same time.  I think that this must have shaped attitudes in Russia early on, not to mention the rest of Europe's Royal Courts.  

By the time Kyrill and Ducky's marriage occured on Oct. 8, 1905, Nicholas was plunged into the critical events of th Russian Revolution of 1905 when all of the Emperor’s energy was being spent in finding a progressive solution for the future of Russia.  The timing of the marriage could not have been worse.  The fact that Victoria Melita was secretly married to her lover, the Grand Duke Cyril, in the Orthodox Chapel of Count Adlerberg’s villa at Tegerness, near Munich and that Father Smirnoff, the confessor of Victoria Melita’s mother, the Dowager Duchess of Coburg, officiated indicates that the couple were also seeking protection from the Dowager Duchess' status as the only daughter of the Tsar Liberator, Alexander II.  I suppose that one would assume that between the prestige of the Dowager Duchess of Coburg and the Grand Duchess Vladimir that Kyrill and Ducky might assumed that they had gained imperial imunity.  

However, and contrary to the Grand Duchess Vladimir's assumptions, Nicholas had warned Kyrill that he would be severely punished if he broke his word and married Victoria, and Nicholas stripped Kyrill of his military commissions, income, and title and banished him from Russia.  However Nicholas relented by mid-October 1905 he restored Kyrill’s title on the Tsarevich Alexis' Name day, but he enforced the other punishments.  

Though Kyrill’s mother, the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, credited the young Empress with the severity of her son's punishment, it is certain that Nicholas relied on the judgment and guidance of his state advisors, who at the time were in daily contact with Nicholas about the establishment of the Duma and amendments of the Fundamental Laws, approved the measures against Kyrill.  Added to this was the fact that the punishment for Kyrill and Ducky was also acknowledged as just by both the Empress Dowager and the Grand Duke Constantine.  In spite of all of this, by June 1907 the tender hearted Nicholas II and I am sure it was seconded by the young Empress, Nicholas acknowledged the marriage and conferred the title of Grand Duchess on Victoria Melita, creating a legal precedent by allowing Victoria to keep her name, out of respect for Ducky's namesake, Queen Victoria.    

I think this information confrims Greg's point that certainly Nicholas did not consider the marriage to be morganatic in any sense of the word.  Though the marriage at first was seen as a betrayal, which it certainly was, once it was accomplished it became accepted and recognized in a relatively short period of time.  From doing a chonology on the Empress' German relatives, I now understand more clearly her horor of scandal in connection with her Hessian family given her father's brothers mistresses and morganatic marriages.  However, I am convinced that the Empress' desire to protect her brother never translated into bitterness toward Ducky or Kyrill.  I have been carefully reading the young Empress's letters to her husband 1914-1917 and she makes several positive remarks about Ducky's involvement in WWI and about her concerns for Kyrill's wellbeing.  The Empress Alexandra has a hot-flash reaction and says things in the heat of the moment, but far more importantly, she has a powerful Christain character that constantly acts in her behalf as self-corrective device and she revises her harsh remarks.  

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: griffh on April 05, 2007, 09:26:01 PM
However, I do believe that neither she nor Nicholas had any illusions about the attitude of Kyrill's mother, the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna and I think that the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna throws all of us off the true sense of how the marriage was recieved because of her letter to her Uncle Baden.  In the letter to her uncle, the Grand Duchess Vladimir, accused the young Empress of ranting and raving “like a lunatic” “to revenge herself on her ex-sister-in-law for marrying the man of her choice.”   However the level headed Empress Dowager is as outraged by Kyrill's and Ducky's arrogance as Nicholas was and states that the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna undoubtedly assumed her status and the statu of her husband and possibly the Dowager Duchess of Coburg would exempt Kyrilll and Ducky from punishment.  Nicholas asks his mother, rhetorically, “…what Aunt Michen thinks?” and he adds, “How she must have hated us!”     

The German Chancellor, von Bulow, agrees.  In his autobiography, Chancellor von Bulow wrote vividly of the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlova's unbridled hatred of the Imperial couple from that time onward, “…the Grand Duchess Vladimir and her sons entertained towards the whole Court, the Tsarina, the Tsar, the sickly heir-apparent, those feelings which, from Philippe Egalité to Louis Phillipe, the House of Orleans harboured towards the elder Bourbon line.”  I don't doubt this statement as I have an equally damning statement from the American Ambassador who happened to be lunching with the Grand Duke Vladimir and his wife a year before this scandal, in 1904 when the Tsarevich was born.  The American Ambassador said that the Grand Duke recieved a phone call and that suddenly an absolute depression descended on the Grand Ducal Palace.  It was only later that the Amercian Ambassador learned the reason for the sudden change of events was the announcement of the birth of an heir to the throne.   

Well anyway this is a small offering in an attempt to add an additional perspective to this intriguing topic.  Griff.       


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Helen on April 06, 2007, 02:00:11 PM
Thank you, Griffh, it's always a pleasure to read your posts.

However, I am convinced that the Empress' desire to protect her brother never translated into bitterness toward Ducky or Kyrill.  I have been carefully reading the young Empress's letters to her husband 1914-1917 and she makes several positive remarks about Ducky's involvement in WWI and about her concerns for Kyrill's wellbeing.  The Empress Alexandra has a hot-flash reaction and says things in the heat of the moment, but far more importantly, she has a powerful Christain character that constantly acts in her behalf as self-corrective device and she revises her harsh remarks.  
Alix did not only make positive remarks about Victoria Melita in her letters to Nicholas, but also praised Victoria Melita's work during WWI in a letter to Ernst Ludwig - of all people.  :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 09, 2007, 08:20:00 PM
Alicky could be misguided or prejudiced, but she wasn't a liar and saw things as they are. Ducky did do her bit during the war.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on April 10, 2007, 11:18:56 AM
Thanks Griffh for your important and very thought provoking posts. I think perhaps the relationship between Alix and Ducky tends to get stereotyped as not being happy. I don't think on a personal level it was happy. On a more professional level as it were, it seems it was not so bad. But, then maybe the years ( by the time of World War I) helped heal the bitterness so Alexandra could say those things. Also, perhaps the undoubtedly confusing circumstances of Ducky's second marriage has clouded perceptions of their relationship at the time and shortly after. Anyway, it is interesting to speculate on my part. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Granduca Anton on July 21, 2007, 10:21:04 PM
Here's a pic of one or Mariya's daughters (Princess Margarita of Leiningen) wedding.

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7639/hohenzollernromanovue6.jpg)

click to enlarge:

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7639/hohenzollernromanovue6.th.jpg) (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hohenzollernromanovue6.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2007, 09:21:12 PM
You can see a resemblance to Ducky, I think, in Princess Mechtildis--4th from right.

The marriage to Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (a great-nephew of Maria's uncle King Ferdinand of Romania) made Margarita a sister-in-law to Princess Birgitta of Sweden (who married the groom's brother Johann Georg, also seen in the photo) amongst other royals--the Sigmaringens wed pretty well. Margarita and FW had 3 children and several grandchildren and while the Prince is still living but Margarita passed away in 1996.

Margarita's brother Karl--seen on the far right--married Princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria, daughter of King Boris and Princess Giovanna of Italy. The couple divorced in 1968 after a little more than a decade of marriage. Their eldest son, Boris, married twice in New Jersey--both towns I'm very familiar with, Westfield and Neptune.  :) His children live in the US.

Margarita's sister, Kira (seen 2nd from left) also married royalty--Prince Andrew of Yugoslavia. (He had previously been married to, and divorced from, Christina of Hesse. Christina was herself a descendant of Queen Victoria and Tsar Alexander II, being the daughter of Christoph of Hesse (Mossy's son) and Princess Sophie of Greece (Andrew & Alice's daughter)). This marriage, too, ended in divorce after a little over a decade. According to the online gotha, they had a child while he was still married to Christina. "Pss" Lavinia Marie (b.London 18 Oct 1961); [born to Pss Kira zu Leiningen before her marriage to Andreas, but apparently Andrej's child; he adopted her 15 Feb 1965]. Andrew was the youngest of the 3 sons of Mignon and King Alexander of Yugoslavia. (Mignon and Kira's mother Marie were first cousins)

The eldest brother, Emich, married Eilika  Duchess of Oldenburg. 

Were Maria's children Protestant like the other Leiningens or did the have the Orthodox faith of their mother?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Granduca Anton on July 29, 2007, 10:39:26 PM
Thank you grandduchessella for the added info.
I've read that in GD Leonida Bragration's memoirs (Mariya's sister-in-law and GD Maria Vladimirovna's mother) that Mariya was expelled by her family for her conversion to Catholicism so she went to live in Madrid with her brother Vladimir and died in Leonida's arms... so tragic and shocking :o
Then she says that she couldn't go with Vladimir to Germany for Mariya's funeral due to visa problems and that none of Mariya's relatives went to the funeral either because it was a Catholic burial!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2007, 11:37:00 PM
Mariya was buried many years later...She was put in a coffin and they there for years... ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Granduca Anton on July 30, 2007, 12:03:38 AM
Mariya was buried many years later...She was put in a coffin and they there for years... ???

Spooky really  :o

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2007, 10:43:31 AM
It is intersting that Maria's daughter Kira was involved in a real fight in London with her cousin Christina von Hesse-Cassel over Prince Andrei of Yugoslavia who hasn't yet divorced Christina at the time...I read this in biography of his brother Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia who adored as a friend Princess Marie Louise von Leiningen,nee of Bulgaria and said that she didn't have a happy first marriage with Karl!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 01, 2007, 07:53:41 PM
Wow interesting info ! How can one get this bio on Tomslav of Yugoslavia ?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on August 01, 2007, 09:31:36 PM
It is intersting that Maria's daughter Kira was involved in a real fight in London with her cousin Christina von Hesse-Cassel over Prince Andrei of Yugoslavia who hasn't yet divorced Christina at the time...I read this in biography of his brother Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia who adored as a friend Princess Marie Louise von Leiningen,nee of Bulgaria and said that she didn't have a happy first marriage with Karl!

I don't wonder why since Kira had a child with Andrei before his divorce. Most women wouldn't take too kindly to that.  :P More problems between Ducky's relations and a member of the Hesse family--this time the Cassels rather than the Darmstadt branch.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2007, 08:00:03 PM
Well,Prince Tomislav didn't go to details about the fight between Kira and Christina,he just mentioned that.Pitty  :P And his biography is just in Serbian  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Angie_H on September 08, 2007, 08:25:25 PM
I have a question. Why did Maria Alexandrovna (daughter of Alexander II) encourage and arrange for her daughter to marry her first cousin in secret? She was faithful to the Russian Orthodox religion and knew marriage between 1st cousins was prohibited and would need approval from the Tsar.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:20:17 AM
perhaps because she loved the country of her birth and knew her daughter Ducky had suffered enough with her failed married to the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt and that she deserved some form of happiness with Cyril.   
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 01:04:11 AM
meant to add that Victoria Melita and her first husband had been first cousins as well ... she was the daughter of Prince Alfred Duke of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and he was the son of Princess Alice - both children of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on September 09, 2007, 11:59:48 AM
But neither of them (Ernst Ludwig & Victoria Melita) were Orthodox and Marie was against that match. I think that Marie was probably very frustrated and embarrassed by the situation (Cyril & Ducky being open lovers) and decided that risking the upset of the Church (especially if Cyril & Ducky conceived an illegitimate child) and the Tsar to end the situation.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:40:39 PM
well I guess it all worked out well in the end as Cyril and Victoria Melita stayed together until death us do part and had numerous children .. it certainly cannot have been easy having Marie as a Mother .. looked at what happened to the only son for instance .. I've often wondered what drove him to such a state
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 09, 2007, 09:11:52 PM
Well...I think you mean young Affie I think. He was weak in soul & body unlike his sisters Missy, Ducky, Sanra and Bee...all tough cookies.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 10, 2007, 07:07:26 PM
From what I've read both Missy and Ducky received a lot of support from their mother.  Marie A. went through some trouble to have Ducky and Kyril married.  I believe she was a very good mother to her daughters.  Poor young Affie, however, had an abusive tutor and probably a strong depressive streak to his personality.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Grace on September 10, 2007, 07:16:22 PM
Poor young Affie, however, had an abusive tutor and probably a strong depressive streak to his personality.

Anyone blessed with the brightest and most optimistic personality would probably fall into depression if they suffered from the neglect and abuse this boy did.  I don't believe he had a depressive streak at all but rather, it developed from what happened to him during his short, sad life.   
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 10, 2007, 07:53:44 PM
I think that is also that he was the only boy, he was a bit spoilt in that respect.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 07, 2008, 11:48:26 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/duckykrillsmile.jpg)
Ducky and Krill
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 07, 2008, 12:52:00 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/duckykrillsmile.jpg)
Ducky and Krill

Here they are in Livadia in 1912. The picture is a screen-shot from the interesting documentary "The Last of the Tzars" released by Discovery Channel.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on March 07, 2008, 04:44:39 PM
You are correct, Svetabel.
When I saw her smiling, it just made her look so different, I couldn't resist saving the image.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on April 03, 2008, 11:54:52 PM


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/marieduckycyrill1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on April 04, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
What wonderful photos Ashanti! It is such a shame that a decent comprehensive biography has never been written about VM. She was surrounded by such fascinating and formidable people. Especially the women in her family - Queen Victoria, Maria Pavlovna, Missy, her mother. It would be interesting to learn more about her character, outlook, and opinions. I've read Van der Kiste's book and A Fatal Passion. Van der Kiste's book was dull and A Fatal Passion (the title should have been a warning I suppose) almost read like a Danielle Steel novel (and I don't mean that as a compliment). I’m still waiting for a more comprehensive and even handed account of her life.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LenelorMiksi on April 04, 2008, 07:00:19 PM
Part of the problem with the biographies on Victoria Melita is the lack of anything written by her.  I believe I remember reading that the authors did not have access to letters or diaries written by her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on April 04, 2008, 08:22:07 PM
Such a shame. I wonder why her descendants were unwilling to give them access?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on April 05, 2008, 08:01:50 AM
I thought that Fatal Passion was authorized, and that's why it was so favorable towards her. I think the problem with access to diaries/letters was that she had destroyed much of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on April 08, 2008, 11:41:48 AM



(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/marieduckycyrill1.jpg)
Victoria, her sister Marie, and Krill

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 06, 2008, 06:41:35 PM
Grand Duchess Victoria Melita was a supporting player throughout most of her life - so I tend to think any biography of her would be difficult to make compelling. She was probably the most important person in Queen Marie of Romania's life. And, her maritial record caused her to be much more interesting to others than she probably wanted to be. Other than marrying the evental titular heir to Imperial Russia, there was not a great deal that she actually did to write about - and so regardless of the skill of the writer - and I believe John Van der Kiste is a very competant writer - the results would tend to disappoint.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2008, 07:37:20 PM
Yes...But Ducky did do a lot of work for Kyril behind the scenes. For instance when she discovered that Grand Duke Dimitri had thoughts about the imperial throne, she flatly told him that she would kill him if he dared to pursuit that road... :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Laura_ on September 30, 2008, 10:28:39 AM
I hope there are more photos of Ducky in court dress, like this one:
http://www.royal-magazin.de//russia/victoria-melitta-kirill/victoria-melitta-sapphires.htm
Does anyone have them ???


 Imo that`s one of the best pics ever taken of her.
another one would be ...
(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6036/copyof2181556850c2dea04nt1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Luc on October 04, 2008, 10:35:40 AM
Does anyone know why Ducky and Kiril did not attend the 1903 ball ? I haven't seen them on the photos on this forum. I hope this is the right place for my question...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on October 04, 2008, 01:21:01 PM
Does anyone know why Ducky and Kiril did not attend the 1903 ball ? I haven't seen them on the photos on this forum. I hope this is the right place for my question...

In 1903 they were not married. Their marriage secretly took place in 1905.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 08, 2008, 10:25:56 AM
Not sure of the year but i think it is circa 1923..


(http://i33.tinypic.com/23lxmhe.jpg)

"Grand Duchess Cyril arrives for visit

New York : above is shown the Grand Duchesss Cyril, wife of Grand Duke Cyril of russia and aclaimed by many russian imperialists as "czarina" as she arrived here today on the "S.S Paris". Special Police arrangements were made to protect her against possible annoyance at the pier. The grand Duchess is the most distinguished royal since the departure of the prince of wales, her cousin. Her grandmother was the late Queen Victoria. She s here to thank America for the aid rendered her stricken countrymen."


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2009, 09:03:37 PM
Victoria Melita and Marie

(http://www.museocanonica.it/var/museicivici/storage/images/musei/museo_pietro_canonica/percorsi/sale_espositive/sala_ii/granduchessa_victoria_melita_kirillo_di_russia_e_figlia/41424-1-ita-IT/granduchessa_victoria_melita_kirillo_di_russia_e_figlia_sqlarge.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on February 05, 2009, 05:37:55 PM
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/Vladima.jpg
Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna with her son Vladimir Kirillovich
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 11:31:43 AM
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/VictoriayVladimir2.jpg
Victoria Feodorovna with Vladimir

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/KirillyVladima.jpg
Kirill with Vladimir

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/KirillyDucky3.jpg
Ducky with kirill, Vladimir and Kira.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 04:02:53 PM
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/9.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on February 06, 2009, 06:33:42 PM
Sour puss central! Ducky's frown seemed etched in her once the revloution came and her life as faux Czarina was a series of endless disappointments
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ilana on February 07, 2009, 11:28:33 AM
She doesn't seem to have been the type to rise above things....
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 07, 2009, 12:50:40 PM
Well...I think Ducky felt things more deeply and more personal than for her own good. I don't think she was a sour puss....
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on February 07, 2009, 04:19:44 PM
When the bulk of the Romanov family turned against Kyril and Ducky due to their claim to the throne (and Eric, Ducky completely backed this pretension), they had only themselves to blame.  They could no longer blame Alix and Nicky for their troubles, as they had done from the time of their marriage and even before. It was only downhill for them both from that time.....
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 07, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
Not the bulk of the family, Grand Duke Dimitri did support Cyril. Most agreed that he was the head of the family after the death of the Dowager Empress & Grand Duke Nicholas. However they spilt on the Tsar thing as it was really premature. I doubt Ducky in her heart believe that that was the way to go. However Ducky's fault (or virture) was loyalty. Cyril was her husband and she did duty bound to him. Missy wrote that her sister sees things in black and white. It was Ducky's choice to go all the way with Cyril. That is why when she discovered that Cyril was not faithful to her, she completely fell apart. I do have sympathy for misguided trust.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on February 07, 2009, 05:56:03 PM
The Dowager Empress, G.D. Xenia and Family, G.D. Olga, Queen Olga of Greece, G.D. Nicholas, and G.D. Peter all expressed their indignation on Kyril's actions.  These were by far the most influential Romanovs in exile.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 07, 2009, 07:02:48 PM
As I said after the Dowager Empress & Grand Duke Nicholas died. Cyril was accepted as head of the Romanov Family. Grand Duke Dimitri was closer to the throne than Grand Duchess Xenia and her sons...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on February 07, 2009, 08:42:07 PM
Thanks for posting them. Would love to see more of Ducky with her children.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/vicyhijas.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/vicyhijas1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/DuckyconVladimir.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Terence on February 08, 2009, 12:10:29 AM
When the bulk of the Romanov family turned against Kyril and Ducky due to their claim to the throne

The Dowager Empress, G.D. Xenia and Family, G.D. Olga, Queen Olga of Greece, G.D. Nicholas, and G.D. Peter all expressed their indignation on Kyril's actions.  These were by far the most influential Romanovs in exile.

Actually Xenia's husband and son did accept Kyril's claim.  Every male Romanov dynast did, except fpr the 3 Nikolaevichi.  To say the "bulk" of the family turned against them simply isn't accurate.

T
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Bsquared on February 08, 2009, 07:01:06 AM
Well it is true then and it is true today. The ones I mentioned who were opposed were closest in relationship to Alexander III and Nicholas II and I refer to Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses.  The support Kyril received was from his brothers Andrei and Boris (not his sister Helen), and Dmitri (who played both sides on this issue), and Sandro (then estranged from Xenia).

The opposition and resentment was probably more on the timing of Kyril's announcement and his own personal actions before and after the revolution than on his dynastic position in the family.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 08, 2009, 03:52:55 PM
I agree with Terence that the family was quite united in accepting Cyril as the head of the family. After all he was the next in line. After the death of Minny and Nicholasha, Cyril was unchallenged in this. However there is a difference in being the head of the family and being Tsar of Russia. Most of them (Ellen included) thought it premature and should concentate in getting the country back than issuing menefestos. Some of those were not supported. Ducky did her best to hard sell it for her husband and did trips to USA to highlight "the cause". It was the strength of the friendship between her and Ellen (who disagreed with her brother) that the family remained close.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marlene on February 17, 2009, 05:05:10 PM

Actuallly,  all the male members of the family apart from Grand Duke Nicholas and his two sons recognized Kirill as head of the house -- this is evident in a signed document with all the names listed. Alexander makes it quite clear in various interviews and in one of his books. For another, various male members of the family went to Kirill to ask for titles for their morganatic marriages. One cousin did it three times for each marriage. 

Well it is true then and it is true today. The ones I mentioned who were opposed were closest in relationship to Alexander III and Nicholas II and I refer to Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses.  The support Kyril received was from his brothers Andrei and Boris (not his sister Helen), and Dmitri (who played both sides on this issue), and Sandro (then estranged from Xenia).

The opposition and resentment was probably more on the timing of Kyril's announcement and his own personal actions before and after the revolution than on his dynastic position in the family.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 05:41:29 PM
Yes. Kyrill was reconized as the head of the family. Dimitri once thought about the throne himself, but Ducky told him to his face that had he dared she would kill him.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on February 18, 2009, 12:25:14 AM
Dimitri once thought about the throne himself, but Ducky told him to his face that had he dared she would kill him.

And what's the source of that "wonderful" statement? As always some unkhown leak-tight source?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on February 18, 2009, 01:39:54 AM
Yes, I've never heard of that either- news to me. I was going to ask, but thanks Svetabel for asking.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 18, 2009, 10:42:34 AM
The source of that statement came from an author working on a bio on Grand Duke Dimitri. The quote came from Dimitri's diary which is in the author's keeping. He did a presentation in Ticehurst in Royalty Weekend. Ilana Miller was also there, so I did not made this up. The project is currently in limbo and Coryan Hall was also invlved for a time.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on February 18, 2009, 12:57:10 PM
The source of that statement came from an author working on a bio on Grand Duke Dimitri. The quote came from Dimitri's diary which is in the author's keeping. He did a presentation in Ticehurst in Royalty Weekend. Ilana Miller was also there, so I did not made this up. The project is currently in limbo and Coryan Hall was also invlved for a time.

Well, will wait for the book.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Teddy on February 18, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
The source of that statement came from an author working on a bio on Grand Duke Dimitri. The quote came from Dimitri's diary which is in the author's keeping. He did a presentation in Ticehurst in Royalty Weekend. Ilana Miller was also there, so I did not made this up. The project is currently in limbo and Coryan Hall was also invlved for a time.

Who is the publisher? Please don't let it be someone who begins with a "B" end ends with "eeche". I wait for some of his books already 3 years.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on February 18, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
On another thread back in January 2006 Eric said "the diary that Dimitri bought out of Russia before his exile. Someone in Seatle is currently using that and other material to write a serious bio on Grand Duke Dimitri." Since so much time has already elapsed it would seem more is to go by before there's any change in the status.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 10:17:08 AM
Thanks for bring that up. Indeed a lot of time has passed. He was working with Coryne Hall ("Little Mother of Russia" & "Once a Grand Duchess") on that project for a while. It sort of lapse off since there is no interest from publishers.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 23, 2009, 01:39:55 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Alice%20de%20Hesse/321.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on February 23, 2009, 05:29:07 AM
I like the last picture of her- it's unusual. It looks to be of her about 1900-1914. Do I have the date right? Unusual dress- I haven't seen another photo of her wearing a dress like that, that I recall.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2009, 02:31:16 PM
Very peasent Russian in theme. She isalso wearing the sapphire on a chain that she later sold to Missy. The jewel became part of the collection of Elizabetta, Queen of Greece.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on February 24, 2009, 12:26:31 AM
Very peasent Russian in theme.

Art Deco I'd say.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2009, 04:57:02 PM
In a way, remember Marie Paulovna the younger was doing Russian Embodiety in Paris. The peasent look was part of the new movement.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: gogm on February 25, 2009, 06:01:26 PM
I just checked on her life span and discovered another picture of her in the same dress on Wikipedia - undated other than "sometime prior to World War I."

This would be immediately pre-war - 1912 - 1914 (closer to 1914), based on the straight line of her dress (1900-1910 dress did not have such straight lines) as well as the German legend on the card (that rules out any time after August 1914). The design is art deco.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: grandduchessella on February 25, 2009, 09:02:47 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Alice%20de%20Hesse/321.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/russia/08415701-1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/russia/1a_1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/russia/2193209168.jpg)j
(a slightly fuller version of the original where you can see the photo was taken in Munich)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 25, 2009, 09:46:13 PM
Totally art deco. Awesome gown!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2009, 07:50:50 AM
To be honest. The style of art deco usually place the time after WWI. Before that it was Art nourvaux. You can say that it had touches of art deco, but the timing is wrong.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Teddy on March 03, 2009, 11:48:33 AM
For those interested a small movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZziSCiHYc
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Teddy on March 04, 2009, 05:25:39 AM
For those interested a small movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZziSCiHYc

By the way. I've seen this video a couple of times. But behind the Tsar walks 3 women. Are these women not the Grand Duchess Maria P. sr. and Grand Duchess Anastasia M and Queen Olga of Greece?

(Behdind GD Ella, Xenia and Cyrill I also see GD Anastasia and behind GD Cyrill is that not Andrew or Boris????)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 10:47:17 AM
I think Boris. Ducky looked modern in her clothes, but Marie Coburg land Marie Paulovna the younger ooked pissed...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Gabriella on March 05, 2009, 12:23:02 AM
For those interested a small movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZziSCiHYc

By the way. I've seen this video a couple of times. But behind the Tsar walks 3 women. Are these women not the Grand Duchess Maria P. sr. and Grand Duchess Anastasia M and Queen Olga of Greece?

(Behdind GD Ella, Xenia and Cyrill I also see GD Anastasia and behind GD Cyrill is that not Andrew or Boris????)

Thanks for posting the link to the movie.

I am not quite sure about the three women but the woman who comes first into the picture looks like the tsar's aunt Maria Alexandrowna Duchess of Coburg.
The woman in the middle with the white umbrella I do not know.
The third one is Grandduchess Maria Pavlova Sr.

Does anybody know at which occasion that little movie was made?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: alixaannencova on March 05, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
Yes.... I think the women coming immediately after Nicky are from left to right

Marie Saxe Coburg & Gotha, Anastasia M of Mecklenburg Schwerin and Marie Pavlovna the elder! I may be completely wrong...!


What interesting footage!


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on March 08, 2009, 05:18:55 PM
(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/escanear0075.jpg)

(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/FabianVCorona/Romanov/Kirill%20Vladimirovich%20y%20su%20familia/escanear0050.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 09, 2009, 05:04:37 AM
For those interested a small movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZziSCiHYc

Lord help me, if I hadn't known that was Kirill, I'd have sworn it was Hitler.....:-) !!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2009, 11:45:26 AM
That was Cyril. No question about it. I am more interested in the music that went with the clip. Any info on that ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Gabriella on March 09, 2009, 07:08:06 PM
I am more interested in the music that went with the clip. Any info on that ?

It's by the Viennese composer Johann Strauss II (1825-1899) who was know even in his life-time as "the waltz king". He's the composer of the famous operetta "Die Fledermaus" and of such famous waltzes as "The Blue Danube", "Emporer Waltz", "Tales of the Vienna Woods", "Voices of Spring" and many others. He also wrote a lot of polkas and operettas.

The music that went with the clip is a part of the introduction of "Emporer Waltz".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 11, 2009, 08:44:27 PM
Grand Duke Cyril and Grand Duchess Victoria speak to the Russian people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9gVJKDyhnI&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: V_Corona on March 11, 2009, 09:00:23 PM
It's great to hear they voices! The video is from Mémoires d'Exil. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 11, 2009, 09:05:55 PM
Thanks...I really must get a copy of that documentary!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: alixaannencova on March 11, 2009, 09:15:18 PM
I wondered why on earth they spoke English when addressing the Russian people around the world!!! It just doesn't make sense to me! My grand father and his siblings and parents were all white Russians and they all spoke Russian and French and English was at least their third language until they ended up settling in the UK, the Colonies and the States! Why did Kyril speak in English?  It was super to hear them speak, and Kyril had very little accent that I could hear! Unlike Queen Mary who I do not think looks like her voice, Ducky really does 'look' like her voice to me....very Lady Bracknell- ish to me...I think she had a very 'handbag' voice!


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on March 12, 2009, 01:46:29 AM
I wondered why on earth they spoke English when addressing the Russian people around the world!!!


This fact also amused me..."Emperor and Empress of Russia" speaks to the Russian people in English with Oxford pronunciation (at least it sounds for me so)!! The reason might be they wanted the whole world would be listening )), not only Russian people.
BTW, Kirill's voice sounds funny.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Laura_ on March 12, 2009, 12:52:47 PM
Grand Duke Cyril and Grand Duchess Victoria speak to the Russian people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9gVJKDyhnI&feature=channel_page

this is great! thank you for posting! never seen it before.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 12, 2009, 01:00:24 PM
Me too!, never seen this video before, thank you!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 12, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
And everything SO natural! :) especially the unexpected appearance of the children :) No, I´m really glad to be able to hear them.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 13, 2009, 01:49:37 PM
I  It was super to hear them speak, and Kyril had very little accent that I could hear! Unlike Queen Mary who I do not think looks like her voice, Ducky really does 'look' like her voice to me....very Lady Bracknell- ish to me...I think she had a very 'handbag' voice!





Kirill to me sounds more English than his wife does. Her voice is a very odd blend: there are some Russian inflexions when she speaks her kids' names (as you might expect!), some British elements, but a very strong German underlay, especially when she says the phrase "All over the Vorld".

The different perceptions of this on just this thread show why it's so hard to get a consistent idea of the accent of many dead royals, especially Queen Victoria's children and grandchildren! One can understand in very practical terms why most Russians described Ella as speaking in a German accent whereas many called her sister's voice "English".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: alixaannencova on March 13, 2009, 04:47:24 PM
Janet, I agree about the disparity in accents of QV's grand children! It is most interesting to see that the Edinburgh girls spent most of their formative years in England, yet having a Russian mother may have given some, like Ducky a subconscious lilt in that direction. The guttural edge in her voice is rather interesting too! Was it not the Edinbughs who had the gruesome German Governess and tutor? I seem to remember reading about incidents involving these two unpleasant figures in Zeepvat's QV's family....I shall be able to check this next Friday when my precious goodies finally arrive from storage! Perhaps I am wrong on this and it was another branch of the family!

Anyway, I wonder if with a German mother, the Connaught children may not have had quite inflected English accents or if their German may have been instead, whilst the Hesse sprogs having grown up in Germany and spent quite a lot of time in England may have had inflections that differed too! Listening to Willie 'grouching' about America's entry into World War One...I was rather struck by how English he sounded, though his intonation made it clear he was not a native to my ear anyway!

As to the Wales children, Georgie sounds thoroughly english as would be hope! But having a Danish mother whose accent was well known to have remained audible till her dying day  I wonder if any of the children picked up tit bits of her accent! It is a most fascinating topic!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: imperial angel on March 13, 2009, 06:08:47 PM
Yes, it was the Edinburghs who had the German Governess and Tutor. I believe this was described in Marie of Romania's memoirs.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2009, 02:29:17 PM
Yes old English was a bit high pitched. One only needs to hear early recordings of the present Queen to see how far the English tones had changed through the years.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: darius on April 27, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
There is some great information and pictures of Victoria Melita (including one rather peculiar one of the sisters in bathing suits and their mother´s pearls after the distribution of Marie Coburgs inheritance) available in a Spanish biography of her sister Baby Bee by Ana de Sagrera. The book is called "Ena y Bee En defensa de una amistad". I don´t believe that it is available in English - and unfortunately I have no scanner to share any pics with you...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: rkonnoff on April 29, 2009, 08:04:19 PM
I think this may be a little off. I beleive all members of the Romanov's supported him, with the exception of GD Nicholas, GD Peter, & his son. In the book Once a Grand Duke, Grand Duke Alexander spells out why GD Kirill was head of the family.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2009, 01:26:03 AM
Portrait sketch of Kira of Russia:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/KiraRuss.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 12, 2009, 10:12:15 AM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/27-40-1b.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Svetabel on May 14, 2009, 01:01:18 PM
Little Kirill

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/kirill.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/kirill1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on May 14, 2009, 05:42:15 PM
Very nice Svetabel. Thank you for posting them.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Olgasha on May 18, 2009, 11:36:36 AM
GD Kiryll
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6691/portkiryl.jpg)
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2075/portkiryl2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on May 28, 2009, 02:14:52 PM
(http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/13070/2815340230101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2815340230101857556BOUeFV)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 05, 2009, 10:38:45 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/PBDDUKI_EC001_H1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 20, 2009, 02:47:03 PM
Victoria Melita
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/80070446.jpg)

Victoria Melita with daughter Kyra
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/80083239.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 23, 2009, 06:27:46 AM
"Imperial" family

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs/th_gre.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs/gre.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 01, 2009, 10:36:32 AM
Kyril and his wife

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/3689029833_5ae291ff32_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
Post by: ashanti01 on August 31, 2009, 11:35:01 AM
Some screen shots from Memoires d'Exil

GD Kyrill
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/memoriesdeexile/Capture1-1.jpg)

Victoria
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/memoriesdeexile/Capture2-1.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/memoriesdeexile/Capture18-1.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/memoriesdeexile/victoriavlad-1.jpg)
Victoria with Vladimir