Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Rasputin => Topic started by: Grigorevna on April 30, 2005, 05:40:19 AM

Title: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Grigorevna on April 30, 2005, 05:40:19 AM
Hi everyone!
I am a Newbie on this forum, but has been fascinated by the Romanovs and Gregory Efimovich for the last 15 years. I have bought an read heaps of books. Some really good - but a frightful lot of terrible junk. And people still belive it! Good to find this forum!!!

Anyhow - Gregory Efimovich was stabbed in 1914 in his homevillage. I have read a cuple of versions on who did it - one that it was carried out by one of his followers. Another that Illidor had it done. Any other information on this?

I have also read (somewere) that it occured when G.E was on his way to answer a telegram sent from Tsarskoe Selo. Does anyone of you have any more specific knowledge on the happenings around this deed?

Gigorevna
Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 30, 2005, 08:42:23 AM
Welcome to the forum Grigorevna!
I have heard briefly about him being stabbed in 1914 but I never got to hear all the theories. Would you, or someone, be willing to write them all down? From start to finish. I would like to know the reasons behind it, especially from his follower (if that one holds true)

Cheers  :)
Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Grigorevna on April 30, 2005, 09:18:35 AM
Hi!
Well, these are briefly the versions I recollect from different books:

He was stabbed in the summer of 1914, just weeks before the war broke out. He had had earlier that year had some kind of a fallout with Nicholas II because of his views on the war (totally against it) and had therfore been sent back to Pokrovskoye - apparently against Alexandras will.

The first version I have heard is that he was stabbed so he wouldnt go back to Petersburg and talk Nicholas into NOT joining the war.

The second version - far most qouted - i read in Massies Nicholaus and Alexandra: That he had been stabbed on 27/6 (os) by a Kina Gusseva - follower of Illidor. She screamed that she had killed Anti-Chist and then tried to kill herself.

In some sources it is said that Gregory Efimovich was very badly wounded and were operated several days and then had a very difficult recovery since the cut had been very deep - his guts were coming out of his belly.

In a third version (Eduard Radzinsky: "Gospodi, spasi y usmiri Rossiu") Guseva is one of his former fanatic followers but is now named Feonia.

This is briefly what I know.
Anyone?
Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Forum Admin on April 30, 2005, 09:40:36 AM
This has been disussed in the "Rasputin Fact vs. Fiction" thread here

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=rasputin;action=display;num=1102903447;start=14#14

I have translated portions of the important Spiridovitch bio of Rasputin from the original French. Spiridovitch was chief of secret security for Nicholas II, and so had read the police and Okhrana reports of the event. He  writes that Rasputin went to Pokrovskie voluntarily for a visit. This was not his "banishment".  Gussyeva was a passionate follower of Iliodor, who took it upon herself to kill "the demon" Rasputin because of how she felt Iliodore had "suffered" from Rasputin. Gussyeva first stabbed him with a dagger in the belly, but missed the intestines. He was first bandaged up, and it was not until 8 hours later, in the middle of the night, that the wound was sewn up.
It appears that he lost a decent amount of blood, but that the wound itself was not that serious.

Thats the story, and since it is essentially first hand, most likely the closest to the truth.

Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Grigorevna on April 30, 2005, 09:51:38 AM
Oh, yes. This is what Wilson writes in Fall of the Romanovs.

R was afraid to stay in Petersburg over summer, since he feared an attack on his life there. He went back to P and arrived 27/6 (OS). Maria was with him.

"At two fifteen on Sunday afternoon the  postman arrived with a telegram for Rasputin. He read it and hurried out of the house to ask the postman to take a reply. As he did so, a peasant woman approached him. He had already seen her once that day, when she had made a move to accost him as he came from mass. Rasputin stopped to give her a coin; as he did so, she lunged forward and drove a knife into his stomach. R turned to run, and the woman started to chase him, the knife raised; he decided that attack would be a better policy, seized a piece of wood that was lying in the path, and hit her on the head. Then he dragged himself back to the house, and shouted for the servants. [Servants? Did he have servants? My question.]
(...) Guseva was arrested - R had some difficulty in saving her from lynching - and R was taken to the Tioumen hospital."

Wilson points out the weird fact that he was stabbed at the same time as the shots were fired in Sarajevo - same day, almost at the same time.

R heard of the Russian mobilisation when in hospital. He telegrams Nicholas to avert war, but it is too late.

//Grigorevna
Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 30, 2005, 03:34:41 PM
Wow.. thanks guys!   :)
Title: Re: Stabbing of Rasputin in 1914
Post by: brendan on July 09, 2005, 02:28:15 AM
Quote
Tioumen hospital."

Wilson points out the weird fact that he was stabbed at the same time as the shots were fired in Sarajevo - same day, almost at the same time.

R heard of the Russian mobilisation when in hospital. He telegrams Nicholas to avert war, but it is too late.

//Grigorevna



That account sounds pretty much the same as the one  R's daughter Maria later wrote except for one small, but nevertheless interesting, detail that was left out.  

Maria write's :

...And when the fatal news was brought
to him,  he understood that the inevitable had been done.He sobbed bitterly repeating obstinately:
“now all will perish.”

I think this does an excellent job of shedding some light on just who this man really was.
Title: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 05, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
I'm running across some discrepancies regarding the date Rasputin was stabbed by Guseva:

At first glance, Massie appears to say that Rasputin was stabbed on 27 June (NS). However, careful reading of the passage reveals that Massie actually gives no date for the stabbing itself -- he says only that Rasputin arrived home on 27 June and the assassination attempt followed during that visit.

Joseph Fuhrmann's bio of Rasputin puts the date as 28 June with Maria Rasputin and Spiridovich as his references.

King's biography of Alexandra also uses 28 June, citing De Jonge as his reference.

In The Rasputin File, Radzinsky relates the assassin Guseva's own testimony which states that the date was 29 June.

However, Radzinsky writes in The Last Tsar that Nicholas received the telegrams regarding the events in Sarajevo and Rasputin's injury on the same day. I would presume that the tsar would have been informed of the assassination in Sarajevo immediately, which leads me to believe Rasputin must have been stabbed on or before the day Archduke Franz Ferdinand was killed -- 28 June -- in order for the news of both events to arrive on board the Standart on the same day.

Moynahan's bio of Rasputin puts the date at 29 June, referencing the deputy prosecutor of the Tobolsk distict court -- I assume this is another reference to Guseva's testimony.

Some accounts state that the assault occurred after Rasputin had returned home from church. In checking a 1914 calendar, I verified the fact that Sunday fell on 28 June that week. However, others say that Rasputin was on his way to the post office to answer a telegram from the empress. Would the postmaster have delivered a telegram on Sunday? Some accounts mention both the visit to church and the trip to the post office occurring within a matter of hours.

It seems to me that the most solid indicator would be the date of Alexandra's telegram to Rasputin. However, I've never seen the text of that telegram resproduced. Has anyone else?

In lieu of that, I'm curious about what others' opinions would be regarding the validity of the sources I've laid out here. Whose date do you believe, and why?
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 05, 2008, 03:08:14 PM
Spiridovitch's bio "Rasputine" says (pg. 201 et seq) that it was on June 29, while Rasputin was meeting with the telegram delivery man who had a telegram for him and while he was digging in his pockets to pay the man, she stabbed him.

This date is further supported by the following:
1. A telegram dated June 29 sent by Rasputin to the Emperor on board the Standart. "Some species of carrion has stuck me in the side with a knife.  With the help of God, I am still alive." (This original telegram in the Yale Archives as part of the Spiridovitch papers)
2. A telegram sent by Nicholas II to the Minister of the Interior, dated June 30, 1914, reading in part: "Nikolai Alexeievich, I have learned that yesterday, in the village of Pokrovskoie, Toblosk Government, an attempt has been committed against the person of the staryets Grigiri Efimovich Rasputin, for whom we have great veneration.  He has been wounded in the chest by a woman. " (Cited by Spiridovitch at pg 202-203, source noted to "La Monarchie avant l'ecroulement" Edition d'Etat, 1927. pg. 92)

I believe that these two pieces of first hand evidence establish a conclusive date of June 29, 1914, although am interested to know if anyone else has contradictory first hand evidence.

Further, Sarah, Spridovitch reports the Assassination of Franz Ferdinand as "June 15" which would be OS, thus well before the OS date of June 29. According to Spiridovitch, was was there of course, the report of the events in Sarajevo came to Nicholas long before the stabbing of Rasputin, and not on the same day.  He further reports that the telegram about Sarajevo came while Nicholas was still at Peterhof, and not yet on board the Standart. I believe Radzinsky is incorrect.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 05, 2008, 03:39:37 PM
Further, Sarah, Spridovitch reports the Assassination of Franz Ferdinand as "June 15" which would be OS, thus well before the OS date of June 29. According to Spiridovitch, was was there of course, the report of the events in Sarajevo came to Nicholas long before the stabbing of Rasputin, and not on the same day.  He further reports that the telegram about Sarajevo came while Nicholas was still at Peterhof, and not yet on board the Standart. I believe Radzinsky is incorrect.

The dates I gave were all new style. OS, the dates in question for Guseva's attack on Rasputin would be 15 or 16 June. My question boils down to this: Was Raputin attacked on the same day Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated?
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 05, 2008, 06:28:50 PM
Sarah, all Spiridovitch dates in his book are OS. He was QUITE clear that the telegram about Franz Ferdinand was delivered June 15 and that Rasputin was stabbed June 29. He was most clear that Nicholas was still at Peterhof when the Austria news came, and then on board the Standart when the Rasputin telegram came.

Franz Ferdinand was no question shot on June 28 NEW STYLE. This corresponds exactly to Spiridovitch's June 15 date. Rasputin was stabbed the 29th OLD STYLE, which would be July 12 NS.

The confusion among authors seems to arise from not realizing that the date reported in Spiridovitch and other places was OS date. Rasputin was stabbed June 29, 1914 OLD STYLE (July 12 NS) , which was actually two weeks after the fact of the shooting of Franz Ferdinand. Is this clear now?

Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 05, 2008, 07:15:13 PM
I'm running across some discrepancies regarding the date Rasputin was stabbed by Guseva:

In lieu of that, I'm curious about what others' opinions would be regarding the validity of the sources I've laid out here. Whose date do you believe, and why?

Such a pity that you failed to read my published biography about Rasputin from a modern Russian perspective. If you take the time to read through it your concerns should be amply satisfied.

The link is:  

http://www.facesofrussia.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=1
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 05, 2008, 08:08:16 PM
To be more clear, I hope Margarita does not mind my quoting the salient details here from her well researched biography:
Just few weeks before the First World War was announced, Rasputin was attacked in front of his home, less than 24 hours after he had returned with his daughter from St. Petersburg. According to the Gendarme File that is held in the Moscow Archives, the offence had occurred on June 29, 1914 at 3 p.m. when Rasputin was leaving his house in order to reply to a telegram. Hioniya Guseva, a 33 year old seamstress from Tsaritsyn, had suddenly confronted Rasputin and stabbed him with a dagger, wounding him in the abdomen.
Platonov, O., Zhizn za Tsarya, Voskresenie, St. Petersburg, pp 110-137
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 05, 2008, 08:19:54 PM
To be more clear, I hope Margarita does not mind my quoting the salient details here from her well researched biography:
Just few weeks before the First World War was announced, Rasputin was attacked in front of his home, less than 24 hours after he had returned with his daughter from St. Petersburg. According to the Gendarme File that is held in the Moscow Archives, the offence had occurred on June 29, 1914 at 3 p.m. when Rasputin was leaving his house in order to reply to a telegram. Hioniya Guseva, a 33 year old seamstress from Tsaritsyn, had suddenly confronted Rasputin and stabbed him with a dagger, wounding him in the abdomen.
Platonov, O., Zhizn za Tsarya, Voskresenie, St. Petersburg, pp 110-137

I am delighted that you have FA. Thank you.

Margarita
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 05, 2008, 11:21:09 PM
I'm running across some discrepancies regarding the date Rasputin was stabbed by Guseva:

In lieu of that, I'm curious about what others' opinions would be regarding the validity of the sources I've laid out here. Whose date do you believe, and why?

Such a pity that you failed to read my published biography about Rasputin from a modern Russian perspective. If you take the time to read through it your concerns should be amply satisfied.

The link is:  

http://www.facesofrussia.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=1

You assumption is patently incorrect. I have indeed read your article, which in fact spurred my question. I noticed you reported the date of the stabbing as 29 June, which conflicted with other sources I'd recently read and prompted me to investigate further.


Sarah, all Spiridovitch dates in his book are OS. He was QUITE clear that the telegram about Franz Ferdinand was delivered June 15 and that Rasputin was stabbed June 29. He was most clear that Nicholas was still at Peterhof when the Austria news came, and then on board the Standart when the Rasputin telegram came.

Franz Ferdinand was no question shot on June 28 NEW STYLE. This corresponds exactly to Spiridovitch's June 15 date. Rasputin was stabbed the 29th OLD STYLE, which would be July 12 NS.

The confusion among authors seems to arise from not realizing that the date reported in Spiridovitch and other places was OS date. Rasputin was stabbed June 29, 1914 OLD STYLE (July 12 NS) , which was actually two weeks after the fact of the shooting of Franz Ferdinand.

I'm frankly amazed that so many authors in both Russia and the west seem to have botched the dates. Radzinsky, whom I would expect to be adept at juggling OS/NS dates, perpetuates the myth that the two events happened within a day of one another. Even Bokhanov and the predominantly Russian team responsible for Love, Power and Tragedy seem to use an unfortunate mixture of OS and NS throughout the book, thus making it unclear whether they interpreted Spridovich correctly.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 05, 2008, 11:36:15 PM
I'm running across some discrepancies regarding the date Rasputin was stabbed by Guseva:

In lieu of that, I'm curious about what others' opinions would be regarding the validity of the sources I've laid out here. Whose date do you believe, and why?

Such a pity that you failed to read my published biography about Rasputin from a modern Russian perspective. If you take the time to read through it your concerns should be amply satisfied.

The link is:  

http://www.facesofrussia.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=1

You assumption is patently incorrect. I have indeed read your article, which in fact spurred my question. I noticed you reported the date of the stabbing as 29 June, which conflicted with other sources I'd recently read and prompted me to investigate further.

Then why did you not quote me as well, since that was where you first noticed the date, which initiated your inquiry? 

Obviously it can be seen that other than Moynahan, whose source was impeccable, the other contemporary writers were largely in conflict with each other.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 05, 2008, 11:50:17 PM
... I'm frankly amazed that so many authors in both Russia and the west seem to have botched the dates. Radzinsky, whom I would expect to be adept at juggling OS/NS dates, perpetuates the myth that the two events happened within a day of one another. Even Bokhanov and the predominantly Russian team responsible for Love, Power and Tragedy seem to use an unfortunate mixture of OS and NS throughout the book, thus making it unclear whether they interpreted Spridovich correctly.

Which is precisely why it always ideal to find the primary documents or as second best find authors who have cited from those key documents.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 06, 2008, 12:09:32 AM
Obviously it can be seen that other than Moynahan, whose source was impeccable, the other contemporary writers were largely in conflict with each other.

It appears Radzinsky also used that same source -- Guseva's testimony as recorded by the deputy prosecutor of the Tobolsk distict court.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 06, 2008, 12:27:15 AM
Obviously it can be seen that other than Moynahan, whose source was impeccable, the other contemporary writers were largely in conflict with each other.

It appears Radzinsky also used that same source -- Guseva's testimony as recorded by the deputy prosecutor of the Tobolsk distict court.

Radzinsky has faulted with other documents placed before him. Knowing which authors are most reliable is the key to one's investigation to find where the truth lies.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 06, 2008, 12:31:35 AM
Radzinsky has faulted with other documents placed before him.

Indeed, and most unfortunate too, as he is one of the few Russian authors on this topic whose publications are accessible to the west.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 06, 2008, 12:41:12 AM
In your preliminary posting on this thread you had failed to declare that you used my biographic notes to base your inquiry. You failed to respond to my previous question concerning the matter. Please explain what it is that are you attempting to demonstrate here? Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 06, 2008, 08:53:39 AM
I
It seems to me that the most solid indicator would be the date of Alexandra's telegram to Rasputin. However, I've never seen the text of that telegram resproduced. Has anyone else?


30 June 1914:
"Profoundly saddened at what has happened, we pray fervently."
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 06, 2008, 09:42:52 AM
I
It seems to me that the most solid indicator would be the date of Alexandra's telegram to Rasputin. However, I've never seen the text of that telegram resproduced. Has anyone else?


30 June 1914:
"Profoundly saddened at what has happened, we pray fervently."

Thank you!

Am I correct that this is Alexandra's answer in response to the news of the attack on Rasputin?

Do you also have  the telegram she sent before the stabbing -- the telegram Rasputin received just prior to the attack? I believe that would have been in regard to Aleksei's accident while boarding the Standart.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on February 06, 2008, 09:52:25 AM
In your preliminary posting on this thread you had failed to declare that you used my biographic notes to base your inquiry. You failed to respond to my previous question concerning the matter. Please explain what it is that are you attempting to demonstrate here? Thank you in advance.

I did not fail to declare your article as the source of my inquiry -- I chose not to. Frankly, I do not enjoy our exchanges and thus I deliberately chose more neutral sources to frame my question in hopes of avoiding your involvement and the possibility of further antagonization. In that, I clearly failed; I had not anticipated the possibility of bruising your ego.

I also have a clear impression that you think I started this thread as a veiled attempt at challenging your research. Let me assure you that is not the case, and that once again I am offended by your insinuations and assumptions. I needed correct information regarding these dates for a project of my own. I have obtained that information, and due to the fact that we clearly do not communicate well, I do not plan to visit this thread again.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 06, 2008, 10:07:34 AM
I
It seems to me that the most solid indicator would be the date of Alexandra's telegram to Rasputin. However, I've never seen the text of that telegram resproduced. Has anyone else?


30 June 1914:
"Profoundly saddened at what has happened, we pray fervently."

Thank you!

Am I correct that this is Alexandra's answer in response to the news of the attack on Rasputin?

Do you also have  the telegram she sent before the stabbing -- the telegram Rasputin received just prior to the attack? I believe that would have been in regard to Aleksei's accident while boarding the Standart.

The June 30 telegram was sent officially by "The Imperial Family" as a whole.

Alexei's fall on the Standart, as reported by Spiridovitch was on July 1 OS, thus two days AFTER Rasputin was stabbed.  There is no mention as to who sent the telegram to Rasputin on the day he was attacked. 
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Belochka on February 06, 2008, 08:41:56 PM
In your preliminary posting on this thread you had failed to declare that you used my biographic notes to base your inquiry. You failed to respond to my previous question concerning the matter. Please explain what it is that are you attempting to demonstrate here? Thank you in advance.

I did not fail to declare your article as the source of my inquiry -- I chose not to. Frankly, I do not enjoy our exchanges  and thus I deliberately chose more neutral sources to frame my question in hopes of avoiding your involvement  and the possibility of further antagonization. In that, I clearly failed; I had not anticipated the possibility of bruising your ego.

I also have a clear impression that you think I started this thread as a veiled attempt at challenging your research. Let me assure you that is not the case, and that once again I am offended by your insinuations and assumptions. I needed correct information regarding these dates for a project of my own. I have obtained that information, and due to the fact that we clearly do not communicate well, I do not plan to visit this thread again.

Why does this OT disrespectful posting remain while my inoffensive response was deleted?
 





Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 06, 2008, 10:32:58 PM
Sarah was answering your question above. That's why. Margarita, you really must "lighten up" simply because your article was not cited publicly.  Sarah was not making some public slight of you because she didn't mention your article. I had hoped to just let it all go, but  you couldn't.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: matushka on March 13, 2008, 07:25:28 AM
Sarushka, this quotation from Maria Feodorovna's diary wil perhaps interest you. She was at that time in England.

30.06/ 13.07 1914
(...) All the evenings' papers are full of news about the assassination attempt agains R. who nevertheless didn't die, he was only wounded by some woman.
Title: Re: Date of assassination attempt?
Post by: Sarushka on March 13, 2008, 08:47:00 AM
Thank you matushka! It's helpful to know how quickly the news spread.