Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: bluetoria on May 16, 2005, 09:53:15 AM

Title: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 16, 2005, 09:53:15 AM
Does anyone please have any the full list of royalties & other dignitaries who attended the burial of the IF in 1998. Also - since I cannot find any - does anyone have any links to web sites or could anyone please post details of the way in which the service was carried out & any more pictures please?  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Michelle on May 16, 2005, 10:40:42 AM
I'm sorry I don't, but I just have to say that it's so sad to see their coffins there. :'(
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on May 16, 2005, 12:11:23 PM
i think its on this site, look in the main menu
selina              xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Teddy on May 16, 2005, 03:02:51 PM
Only prince Michael, Duke of Kent attended the re-burial of the IF.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 16, 2005, 05:19:47 PM
Thanks Selina, I did look but maybe I missed it!  :)

Teddy, is that right? Out of all the Houses (or remnants of Houses!) of Europe, Prince Michael was the only royalty present at so momentous an event!?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: lexi4 on May 16, 2005, 05:25:06 PM
I didn't realize that Prince Michael was the only one to attend. That's amazing. I wonder why? Any ideas?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 16, 2005, 07:35:14 PM
I didn't see this one before. Very sad...I saw the burial of the IF in the TV, and I must said I cryed. You are right, Michelle. It's so sad...Of course, I taped all the ceremony.  :'(

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Teddy on May 17, 2005, 01:49:34 AM
Yes bluetoria, 4 what I know is that prince Michael the only was to attend of all the Royal Houses.

Maybe there was a sort of protocol. Its custom that if you get an invitation of the host country you as King/Queen or one of the childeren go, to a burial/funeral, wedding, etc.

I think that Poetin didn't send any invitations to the Kingdoms of the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Spain, etch etc.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: James_Davidov on May 17, 2005, 04:30:29 AM
Quote
I think that Poetin didn't send any invitations to the Kingdoms of the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Spain, etch etc.


wasn't it Yeltsin?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Teddy on May 17, 2005, 06:09:44 AM
Yes Yeltsin indeed. Ok my mistake.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 17, 2005, 08:03:04 AM
Thanks, Teddy. Do you know of any reason why Yeltsin didn't extend the invitations? Did he see it a primarily an internal Russian matter? Or were his views more political.
On a purely human level, it would seem that it would have been a noble gesture to invite them if only because of their family links to the IF.  :-/
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: matushka on May 17, 2005, 08:52:24 AM
The fact that there is no solid evidence that these rest belong really to the Imperial family can be an other explanation. I still think that Boris Nikolaevich made something as a PR-campagny for himself with this burial. But I can be not right.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 17, 2005, 09:00:06 AM
I think I have read that only members of the Romanov family were specifically invited. [Prince Michael being connected with them]. The church is not that large and would not accomodate a large, state-type assembly.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on May 17, 2005, 09:17:34 AM
well i don't think the orathdox church approved of it
selina               xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 17, 2005, 09:20:58 AM
The Orthodox Church performed the burial rites.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Greta on May 17, 2005, 09:53:48 AM
Hi all,

Tis late here, but I have a saved a few Australian newspapers from around the time of the burial and I'll try to scan them in (if anyone is interested)  :)

The articles mention Yeltsin, Michael Romanoff (Xenia's grandson)? Prince Nicholas and the Melniks there.  Apparently Patriach Alexiy II conducted a separate service.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Teddy on May 17, 2005, 10:01:24 AM
Quote
Thanks, Teddy. Do you know of any reason why Yeltsin didn't extend the invitations? Did he see it a primarily an internal Russian matter? Or were his views more political.
On a purely human level, it would seem that it would have been a noble gesture to invite them if only because of their family links to the IF.  :-/


Bluetoria I think that Yeltsin saw it as a internal Russian matter. No outsiders at all.

They only invite those whose roots are very close with the Romanovs. For example Queen Beatrix who is a Romanov descendant by birth had to little Romanov-blood left to be invited. Her great-great-great-grandmother Anna Pavlovna was the daughter of Tsar Paul.

But the House of Orange was never a big fan of the House of Romanov.For example Queen Wilhelmina (granddaughter of Anna P) said once in not so many words, that the Tsar was very stupid and not clever at all. So I think that if Queen Beatrix had an invitation it on her to go or not. Its not a must.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 17, 2005, 10:09:20 AM
Hello Greta, welcome to the forum!  :) It would be lovely if you could post the info sometime.

Thank you Teddy; I understand the reasoning now, but it still seems a shame, really. Thanks!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on May 17, 2005, 02:58:27 PM
i meant that the church didn't seem happy about it, thats what i read anyways
selina                 xxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: lexi4 on May 17, 2005, 03:01:06 PM
I realize the Orthodox church performed the burials, but I seem to recall reading that they did so without using the name Romanov because they were not convinced the bodies were actually those of the IF. Anyone else remember anything like that? I think I read this in The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 17, 2005, 03:26:11 PM
That is true. They were given Orthodox funeral rites as victims of the violence. The fact that the only other people buried in that church are Romanovs does tell a lot more though.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Greta on May 18, 2005, 06:59:42 AM
Hi Bluetoria,

Thanks for the welcome!  :D

Unfortunately my scanning skills are a bit left to be desired  ;) , so here's the text of the article:

"THEY BURIED YESTERDAY'S TSAR BUT MOURNED TODAY's RUSSIA

Neela Banerjee, St Petersburg
Sydney Morning Herald, 18 July 1998

In the end, the burial of Russia's last tsar turned out to be the burial of just a man.

Many had hoped that when the remains of Nicholas II were lowered into a concrete crypt yesterday, 80 days to the day since he and his family were executed by the Bolsheviks, Russians would begin a reckoning with their past and, through it, come together as a nation.

Yet beneath the pomp of 19-gun salutes, honour guards and solemn dignataries, Russia remains splintered, and hopes of reconciliation feel naive.

President Yeltsin, with his predictable unpredictability, decided at the last minute to attend the funeral.

"We must close this century which, for Russia, has been a bloody century, by repentance," said  Mr Yeltsin, bowing towards the nine coffins of the tsar, his wife, three of his daughters, and four faithful retainers, all murdered together. "For long years we remained silent on this monstrous crime.  But we must tell the truth.  The execution in Yekaterinburg was one of the most shameful pages in our history."

"In committing to the earth the bodies of these innocents, we wish to wipe clean the sin which this act of outrageous cruelty represented."

The burial was "an act of human justice, a symbol of the unity of the poeple, of collective guilt", he said, being careful not to mention the Romanov name for fear of upsetting the Russian Orthodox Church.

The head of the church stayed away, after his scathing attack on the authenticity of the remains.  Many politicians also bowed out.

More importantly, Russians themselves are divided about the funeral, and sceptical of official findings about the remains' authenticity, because they doubt anything told to them by the Yeltsin Government.

Against this backdrop of discord, the extended Romanov family, descendants of the tsarist line, have come to St Petersburg in a bittersweet reunion.

(Continued in next post)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Greta on May 18, 2005, 07:08:40 AM
(Continued)

Michael Romanoff, a 78-year old Sydney retiree and grandnephew of Nicholas II, said "The Church's deision to stay away may have taken away soome of the glitter from the occasion, but we didn't want glitter.  We wanted something solemn, quiet, a chance for reconciliation."

Mr Romanoff and his long-lost family have emerged perhaps as an unexpected example to the rest of Russia.

Many have come for the first time to a country whose leaders butchered their ancestors.  They've had the Church turn away from the funeral and the Government skimp on funding.  Regardless of what they feel privately about all this,  the far-flung Romanovs publicly show a dignified gratitude for the chance to bury their dead.

Mr Romanoff, a slight man with black hair and a thin, straight mustache, stood in the lobby of the posh Hotel Astoria the day before the funeral, looking from one relative to another as they milled about exchanging kisses and family gossip.

"I've never met two-thirds of them," he said with an almost childlike glee for having met them now.  "And there are others, like my brother and my cousin, whom I hadn't seen for more than 30 years".

There are 62 Romanovs attending the funeral, the largest gathering of the family since before the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution.  The descendants of the dynasty ruled Russia for more than 300 years have adopted different countries and met varied fates.

After coming to Australia following World War II, Mr Romanoff became an aviation engineer and entrepreneur.  Pavel Illinsky is the mayor of Palm Beach, Florida.  They all speak an old-fashioned, gracious Russian.  They've come with their spouses, most not Russian, and suntanned grandchildren who remember endless dinner conversation about the tsar.

Konstantin Melnik isn't a Romanov, but he is the closest relative to a victim of the executions among those attending.  The 70-year old Parisian's maternal grandfather was Dr Yevgeny Botkin, the family physician to the Romanovs and a close friend of the tsar.

Dr Botkin and three other attendants were given the chance by the Communists to abandon the royal family, but they remained, only to be shot and bayoneted to death with the Romanovs in the basement of a Yekaterinburg house after the Bolsheviks panicked over the enemy Tsarist Army's advance on the Urals city.

(Continued in next post)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Greta on May 18, 2005, 07:13:55 AM
(Continued from prior post)

Mr Melnik's mother went into exile with her father to Siberia, before being separated from him when he and the royal family were sent to Yekaterinburg.

"We never thought there were any remains to be found, so it was a great shock when they were discovered," he says.

The bonees, fragments and skulls, were scarred by acid which the Bolsheviks used to thwart identificatioin, were found in 1991 in a forest outside Yekaterinburg.  Seven years of DNA tests followed in Russia, the US and Britain.  Mr Melnik sent his blood samples to Russia as did some European royalty related to the Romanovs.  Finally, earlier this year, a Russian government commission vouched for the remains.

Since arriving in St Petersburg, the Romanovs have tried to show that though they have lst much they are willing to forgive and move on.  "That's the first lesson we've given them," says Nicholas Romanov, the tsaar's cousin, "that we have to separate life now from the life in the past, that we leave that to the historians.  I don't know if they understand this now.  But they will."
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: hikaru on May 19, 2005, 10:01:10 AM
In the cathedral there are all photos of Attendants.
There were quite a lot of them from Italy, U.S. A. Canada etc.
When I will be next time there I will copy the names for you, Bluetoria.
I think that they are not so famouse.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 19, 2005, 10:19:46 AM
Thank you very much Greta for taking the time to post this! The message of forgiveness is very moving. Thank you.   :)

Thank you hikaru, too, for offering to find the names of the attendants; it's very kind of you.  :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: La_Mashka on May 19, 2005, 01:04:53 PM
Greta,


That was a very interesting article, thank you for sharing it.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: lexi4 on May 19, 2005, 08:50:46 PM
Greta,
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed reading that.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: pablo on May 22, 2005, 02:10:53 PM

  Funeral's pictures,

http://www.romanovfundforrussia.org/funeral.html

 Regards.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 23, 2005, 08:23:21 AM
Thank you for posting this link, pablo  :), but I cannot see it. It always comes up as 'Page cannot be displayed'. Does anyone else have this problem?  :-/
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 23, 2005, 09:00:48 AM
Yes, but you can click "Romanovfund" and it comes up for me then.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 23, 2005, 09:07:10 AM
Ah! Thanks! Got it!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 23, 2005, 10:18:21 AM
On the Romanovfund site there is a complete list of those who attended.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: La_Mashka on May 23, 2005, 11:27:43 AM
You have to click a link that takes you to information on the family, and there you will find lots of stuff!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on May 23, 2005, 05:36:23 PM
Thank you, elisa, for your list!  :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: zoya_konstantinovna on May 30, 2005, 07:23:18 PM
i always wonder wat russia would b like if they hadnt been exacuted ne ideas? ???
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Beth on June 01, 2005, 07:58:30 AM
If you want to know, start a new thread. Most Russians really don't care.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 01, 2005, 11:26:01 AM
Quote
i always wonder wat russia would b like if they hadnt been exacuted ne ideas? ???


I imagine that even if they hadn't been executed they would still have been removed from power and so Russia would have ended up exactly as it did.
Had they managedto hold onto the throne, eventually there may have been a constitutional monarchy but it always seems to me that the whole Russian Empire was FAR too large for anyone to govern. Perhaps it would have been divided into separate states on American lines??
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on June 01, 2005, 12:50:50 PM
either way, it would have detiriorated
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 09, 2005, 03:47:20 PM
Why were the IF made saints?

Why is it a good thing?

Why is it a bad thing?

What does their sainthood mean?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 09, 2005, 04:03:48 PM
They were made Saints because the Orthodox Church recognised that they had been glorified by God in His Kingdom. Ususally the first sign that someone is going to be recognised as a Saint is popular veneration on the grassroots level. Accounts of miracles attributed to the Royal martyrs' intercessions to God can be found in various places like on Fr Serfes site for example.  It is important to realise that one doesn't become a Saint at the moment the Church glorifies - they have been Saints since they entered God's Kingdom. The recognition comes later on.

It is neither a good or a bad thing, - it just is. Of course there was some contoversy over the glorification, because people look at how the Emperor was as a ruler, but he was not glorified for being a good tsar, but as a passion bearing martyr, and as an Orthodox Christian, there is much I find worth emulating in their written thoughts, attitudes and piety as they approached the end of their Earthly existence.

Their Sainthood means that we are able to ask for their prayers to God, and to look to them as examples of how we should conduct ourselves (and once again I would reiterate that it is the last perios of their lives that shows quite clearly their Orthodoxy and piety.)

I imagine however, it would be quite difficult for people outside the Orthodox Church to understand why they are Saints and such popular ones at that. Catholics might have some idea, but Catholic and Orthodox attitudes towards Saints and even the way they are glorified are somewhat different.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 09, 2005, 04:23:41 PM
Thank you, Georgiy.  I think we are off to a good start!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: 30_Dollar_Princess on June 09, 2005, 04:38:54 PM
I understand what you say Georgiy. The IF did indeed handle themselves with dignity and faith as the end drew nearer.  I am not in the least religious and I can easily see how this might be seen as a fine example for people.

As a Catholic and a child of the era of PR and "spin" I can easily understand that the appeal of four pretty girls, a doomed young prince who is the embodiment of sacrifice because of his physical infirmity and two loving parents who were brutally cut down.  
As all of us who frequent this site can attest they present   a powerful and enduring image of the destructiveness of relentless brutality and ambition.

What I wonder though is this, is there not also an element of political/social expediency in the family being made saints, and if so what is to be gained?

I'm also curious as to why so many people seem to take such exception to the fact of their canonization. As Georgiy said "it just is" and is in fact no more offensive than many of the people to whom the Catholic church has given  sainthood.  

Unless one is deeply crypto-religious how can this create more of a "disturbance in the force" than say...a novena to St. Jude in the classified section?

It brings comfort to those who may find these saints more approachable than say...St. Francis de Sales...or any of the many people who were canonized for nothing less than being a (more or less successful) WARRIOR.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 09, 2005, 05:11:39 PM
I agree with you completely 30 dollar princess, except for your reference to Francis de Sales whom I must defend since he is one of my favourite saints!  :D He was a gentle & generous  Bishop not a warrior at all - he wrote a beautiful book which is full of worldly wisdom...Did you perhaps mean Francis Xavier? (Cri du coeur...'Leave my poor Francis de Sales alone!'  ;D)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 09, 2005, 05:22:32 PM
Other warrior Saints would include SS George and Demetrios. (But of course they did much more than just being warroirs, and St George was a top-gun in Diocletian's army and was brutally tortured for his Christian Faith before being beheaded.)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 09, 2005, 05:54:37 PM
For a (long) read about the Royal Martyrs from an Orthodox point-of-view, including miracles attributed to them, try the following link:
http://fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/nicholas_ii_e.htm

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 09, 2005, 07:29:55 PM
Scroll down on this link for an expanded version of the life of the Emperor from an Orthodox point-of-view. There are many interesting anecdotes.
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2161&start=7
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: 30_Dollar_Princess on June 09, 2005, 09:35:37 PM
 :-[ Oh dear, my faulty ability to put my thoughts into words rears its head yet again.

I was only using St. Francis de Sales as an example  of a saint because he is the first saint who came to me, no doubt because my first school was St Francis de Sales (waaaaay back in the dim mists of recorded history--I think it was about the time the dog was just beginning to be domesticated ;))

The next comment about warriors was totally unrelated to poor old St Francis and referred to the many Catholic saints who were so called because the wars they waged and the "heretics" they slaughtered were slaughtered in the name of the cross and Holy Mother Church.

Georgiy, I read the article and the message board information. I dunno, maybe people will call me a foolish romantic but it all makes perfect sense to me.
I see no fault in the selection of the IF as passion bearers.
It is an admirable acceptance of the separation of church and state.
Not being a good politician in no way diminishes the fact that Nicholas and his family handled themselves with rare grace under the most hideous of circumstances...and as their diaries and letters reveal, they maintained a steadfast faith in their God through all the horrors.

The very nature of saints is that they are drawn from the human ranks. It is in the nature of humans to be imperfect...soooooo it is hardly surprising that Nicholas and his family had certain faults and blind spots, but that's what makes saints saints and so good as intercessors. They were largely like US, and can be expected to understand.





Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 10, 2005, 10:28:55 AM
I hope you didn't think I was being pedantic, 30 Dollar Princess (it's only because he's one of my favourites that I mentioned it! - And my first Teaching Practice was in a St. Francis de Sales School too!!)

I agree totally with your final paragraph - if they had to be perfect, no one would have been called a saint.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 10, 2005, 04:22:03 PM
Why were they declared saints ?
    I think that it was a political move on the part of The ROCA, which was later accepted by the Russian Othodox Church.

Good or Bad?
    I think its was a dreadful decision but as I am not Orthodox - my opinion might not be held as a worthy one. I feel that rather than letting the Russian Federation deal with the paradox of its Soviet History in an open and critical manner, it has simply draped the last Romanovs in a "fuzzy cloud of Holiness" which keeps anyone from taking any responibility for all the issues (both bad and good) that occured after the Revolution and the Civil war. Rather than actually examining all the actions of such political figures such as Nicholas/ Kerensky/Lenin/  we have reduced the issue to "saints and sinners"

   As I have mentioned I am not Orthodox so I am in a weak position to perceive what it was about them that was so worthy of devotion...being a loving family member is not - as I understand it - a clasification of holiness.
   I have been told that they were 'passion bearers' and that they passively accepted their fate without any attempt to excape death. However I don't believe this, as we know they were attempting to work out some plan for escape with someone they thought was a a "Loyal White General".  We now know that this was a trick, but if they were so 'passive', why didn't they tell their soviet guards abiout the famous 'milk bottle letters'  themselves?

Sorry to be so heretical, but it makes no sense to me.

pure evil
rskkiya  ;D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 10, 2005, 04:32:53 PM
Quote
I have been told that they were 'passion bearers' and that they passively accepted their fate without any attempt to excape death. However I don't believe this, as we know they were attempting to work out some plan for escape with someone they thought was a a "Loyal White General".  We now know that this was a trick, but if they were so 'passive', why didn't they tell their soviet guards abiout the famous 'milk bottle letters'  themselves?


You're speaking of the letters from a "Russian Officer," which the Cheka already knew about, since they had intercepted the first message to the IF and penned the remaining ones themselves. The last response from the IF to the "Russian Officer" (the Cheka) reads in part (emphasis in the original):

"We do not want to, nor can we, escape. We can only be carried off by force, just as it was force that was used to carry us from Tobolsk. Thus, do not count on any active help from us. The commandant has many aides; they change often and have become worried. They guard our imprisonment and our lives conscientiously and are kind to us. We do not want them to suffer because of us, nor you for us; in the name of God, avoid bloodshed above all..."

Sounds pretty passive and forgiving to me.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 04:37:02 PM
Quote
The commandant has many aides; they change often and have become worried. They guard our imprisonment and our lives conscientiously and are kind to us. We do not want them to suffer because of us, nor you for us; in the name of God, avoid bloodshed above all..."

Sounds pretty passive and forgiving to me.


It is.  And this passage also debunks all the posts on the board about the horrific suffering the family endured in captivity.  I think their suffering was certainly real, but it had more to do with living in the knowledge of what they had been and lost, not in the way they were treated as prisoners.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 10, 2005, 04:41:16 PM
No.
I think it states that Nicholas simply was "once again" unwilling to commit...This seems to have been a signature aspect  for so much of his political life-  don't make a decision - let someone else do it...
  Why didn't the "Martyrs" tell their guards about the letters, as they {NAOTMAA}  didn't know it was a trick.

rs
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 10, 2005, 04:55:06 PM
Quote
And this passage also debunks all the posts on the board about the horrific suffering the family endured in captivity.  I think their suffering was certainly real, but it had more to do with living in the knowledge of what they had been and lost, not in the way they were treated as prisoners.


I don't know, I think much of their suffering had to do with their uncertain fate. Remember the sudden, week-long gap in Nicholas' diary in June and July. I think he knew he was living under a death sentence and he must have worried that Alexei was, too, if not his other children.

In fact, I've sometimes wondered if Nicholas and Alexandra composed that last letter to the "Russian Officer" because they had some suspicion that they were being set up by the Bolsheviks. Just a little, tiny, niggling fear that all was not right with this rescue plot. If you read the letters carefully you get the sense that they were taken aback, even alarmed by the "Russian Officer's" obviously slapdash approach to planning the escape attempt. We also don't know if certain language cues might not have given away the "Russian Officer's" real identity (the person composing the letters for the Cheka was not a nobleman, after all). So perhaps the IF decided to play it safe, claiming they did not want to be rescued and that their guards were "kind" to them. It's impossible to say one way or the other.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 05:17:18 PM
Quote
I think much of their suffering had to do with their uncertain fate. Remember the sudden, week-long gap in Nicholas' diary in June and July. I think he knew he was living under a death sentence and he must have worried that Alexei was, too, if not his other children.  


Probably correct.  However, I don't think Nicholas had a clear sense of when.  The accounts that Greg King and Penny Wilson capture in their book The Fate of the Romanovs indicate the the family went into the cellar of the Ipatiev house believing they were about to be transferred yet again.

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In fact, I've sometimes wondered if Nicholas and Alexandra composed that last letter to the "Russian Officer" because they had some suspicion that they were being set up by the Bolsheviks.


I've wondered the same thing, since their supplicating language seems almost Uriah Heep-ish and calculated to ingratiate.

However, there is plenty of other evidence that their captivity was somewhat more humane than one would expect from the Ural Bolsheviks.  For instance, cleaning women came once a week to scrub their floors, the laundry was sent out frequently, additional food gifts were allowed in up until near the end, a guard brought a small cake for Maria's birthday, they were allowed to read anything on hand in the house (including anti-semitic tracts, despite their supposed Jewish captors), etc.

And the treatment at Tobolsk was even better.  There is a picture posted on "The Final Chapter" thread of Alexandra and two of her daughters taken shortly before Alexandra was removed from Tobolsk.  She is sitting under a parasol, all three are dressed very elegantly in clean, pressed clothes, and two of the women are wearing jewelry.  Political imprisonment is inherently horrible, make no mistake.  But this kind of treatment of the incarcerated is about as good as it gets by the standards of political imprisonment.  (By the U.S. Army's own report, a detained terrorism suspect at GITMO was  urinated on "accidentally" by a guard who was pissing through a vent.  Please . . . pissing through a vent?)

A dispiriting, anxiety-inducing captivity for the Romanovs?  Yes.  Deliberate humiliations and sadistic deprivations?  No.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 10, 2005, 05:37:04 PM
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Probably correct.  However, I don't think Nicholas had a clear sense of when.  The accounts that Greg King and Penny Wilson capture in their book The Fate of the Romanovs indicate the the family went into the cellar of the Ipatiev house believing that they were about to be transferred yet again.


Yes, I fully believe that. Alexandra and the girls were even wearing the icons they always carried with them when they traveled.

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I've wondered the same thing, since their supplicating language seems almost Uriah Heep-ish and calculated to ingratiate.


It occurs to me that another reason they might have been hesitant to make an escape attempt - either in Ekaterinburg or even at Tobolsk - was the dismal fate of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette after their failed flight to Varennes. Alexandra seems to have closely identified with MA and would no doubt have had the lesson of Varennes always before her.  

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However, there is plenty of other evidence that their captivity was somewhat more humane than one would expect from the Ural Bolsheviks (...) A dispiriting, anxiety-inducing captivity for the Romanovs?  Yes.  Deliberate humiliations and sadistic deprivations?  No.


I don't think anyone's arguing that the Bolsheviks were deliberately cruel to the family. Still, conditions must have been pretty dire during those last few months, in the full heat of a Siberian summer, with twelve people cooped up together in half a dozen rooms, the windows painted over and only one window, in N and A's bedroom, finally opened after weeks of begging. Remember, they were only permitted to go outdoors once or twice a day for a limited time and this must have been especially hard on OTMAA and the kitchen boy Leonka.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 10, 2005, 05:40:14 PM
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I don't know, I think much of their suffering had to do with their uncertain fate. Remember the sudden, week-long gap in Nicholas' diary in June and July. I think he knew he was living under a death sentence and he must have worried that Alexei was, too, if not his other children.

In fact, I've sometimes wondered if Nicholas and Alexandra composed that last letter to the "Russian Officer" because they had some suspicion that they were being set up by the Bolsheviks. Just a little, tiny, niggling fear that all was not right with this rescue plot. If you read the letters carefully you get the sense that they were taken aback, even alarmed by the "Russian Officer's" obviously slapdash approach to planning the escape attempt. We also don't know if certain language cues might not have given away the "Russian Officer's" real identity (the person composing the letters for the Cheka was not a nobleman, after all). So perhaps the IF decided to play it safe, claiming they did not want to be rescued and that their guards were "kind" to them. It's impossible to say one way or the other.  


Well they did spend an entire night waiting for a "rescue" that was made up by the Bolsheviks.  It seems that they must have believed "An Officer" at some point.  But I agree that the letter was very carefully written so they could cover all their bases, as it were.

I don't agree it was designed to ingratiate, however.  They were passing along information and begging that there be no bloodshed; they weren't groveling...

I happen to view promises of imminent freedom in the middle of the night when no such thing was going to happen as a form of torture.  Nicholas said in his diary the staying up all night fully dressed, waiting for a rescue that never came was "torture".  It's psychological torture.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 10, 2005, 05:45:52 PM
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I don't think anyone's arguing that the Bolsheviks were deliberately cruel to the family.


I am.  I think it's particularly cruel to lock up a bunch of innocent children, most of them teenagers, for a lengthy period of time, then shoot them all.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 05:57:23 PM
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I think it's particularly cruel to lock up a bunch of innocent children, most of them teenagers, for a lengthy period of time, then shoot them all.


I agree it's cruel.  Incarceration of people who are not personally culpable for anything, as the children most certainly were not, is inherently cruel.

However, these children were Romanovs and could possibly have become pawns in a power struggle that looked truly desperate for the Bolsheviks until well into 1919.

I'm not arguing that this made their incarceration -- or certainly their deaths -- less cruel, but it did make it something other than pure vindictiveness.  Remember, their three prisons were a palace, followed by two of the largest, most luxurious houses in Tobolsk and Ipatiev, both towns of which had conventional prisons.  Remember that there were periodic demonstrations outside the Ipatiev house by factory workers complaining of the genteel treatment of the Romanovs and even demanding their public execution.  The Ural Soviet could have easily used this pressure as an excuse at least to make their imprisonment harsher.  And it was the Provisional Government, not the Bolsheviks, that first transferred them from their palace incarceration.

When you look at what political incarceration has looked like for legions of other political prisoners, including royal adults and children, this one stands out for all the additional gratuitous cruelty that could have been exacted, but wasn't.

For instance, wouldn't it have been an exquisite torture to have told Nicholas and Alexandra that they were going to be executed in front of their children, then to be followed by the children?  . . . and let them stew in that one for a while before marching them off to the basement.

Let me be clear . . . the Ural Soviet had a very distorted and sick sense of political necessity, and its was a harbinger of a century that took political necessity to progressively more horrific extremes.

But it was not gratuitous sadism . . . yet.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 10, 2005, 06:04:46 PM
There's a really good book out there that might help those us unfamiliar with Russia's history and culture better understand the whole question of the IF's sainthood.  It's called The Idiot by Dostoyevsky.  

It's been years since I read it but The Idiot is about a well-meaning kind hearted man (Prince Myshkin) who everyone thinks is slightly mentally deficient.  In truth, he's quite intelligent, but he possesses a child-like innocence which none of his contemporaries (I think the novel takes place in Tsarskoe Selo) can fathom.  Sound familiar?

Anyway, I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 06:10:33 PM
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It's been years since I read it but The Idiot is about a well-meaning kind hearted man (Prince Myshkin) who everyone thinks is slightly mentally deficient.  In truth, he's quite intelligent, but he possesses a child-like innocence which none of his contemporaries (I think the novel takes place in Tsarskoe Selo) can fathom.  Sound familiar?
quote]

I never caught the lineage until your post . . . The Idiot is the progenitor of the movie Being There.  (Although I assume you are drawing the comparison to Nicholas.)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 10, 2005, 06:18:17 PM
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It's been years since I read it but The Idiot is about a well-meaning kind hearted man (Prince Myshkin) who everyone thinks is slightly mentally deficient.  In truth, he's quite intelligent, but he possesses a child-like innocence which none of his contemporaries (I think the novel takes place in Tsarskoe Selo) can fathom.  Sound familiar?
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I never caught the lineage until your post . . . The Idiot is the progenitor of the movie Being There.  (Although I assume you are drawing the comparison to Nicholas.)


Well, Myshkin is Christ-like but he isn't perfect.  He's conflicted and those conflicts lead to tragedy.  I don't think The Idiot is much like Being There (although it's been many years since I saw Being There).
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 10, 2005, 06:19:14 PM
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I'm not arguing that this made their incarceration -- or certainly their deaths -- less cruel, but it did make it something other than pure vindictiveness.  Remember, their three prisons were a palace, followed by two of the largest, most luxurious houses in Tobolsk and Ipatiev, both towns of which had conventional prisons.  Remember that there were periodic demonstrations outside the Ipatiev house by factory workers complaining of the genteel treatment of the Romanovs and even demanding their public execution.  The Ural Soviet could have easily used this pressure as an excuse at least to make their imprisonment harsher.  And it was the Provisional Government, not the Bolsheviks, that first transferred them from their palace incarceration.

When you look at what political incarceration has looked like for legions of other political prisoners, including royal adults and children, this one stands out for all the additional gratuitous cruelty that could have been exacted, but wasn't.

For instance, wouldn't it have been an exquisite torture to have told Nicholas and Alexandra that they were going to be executed in front of their children, then to be followed by the children?  . . . and let them stew in that one for a while before marching them off to the basement.



   Well, they might have enjoyed the thrill of impending martyrdom - a lot of borderline zealots do, you know. I still don't see them as "martyrs" - although I have the vivid impression from Alix' diary that  they did!

rs
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 06:31:24 PM
I have some candidates for passion-bearer status:

How about the untold thousands of Russian teenagers and young men (about the age of the elder tsarevnas) who were sent into battle without guns and who waited for their comrades to drop so they could use their guns to get off the few rounds of remaining bullets before they, too, fell?

That's passive submission to one's fate if ever I saw it.  And I have a funny feeling God might be better disposed toward them as intercessionaries on my behalf than the person who sent them into battle in such circumstances.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 10, 2005, 06:34:52 PM
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I agree it's cruel.  Incarceration of people who are not personally culpable for anything, as the children most certainly were not, is inherently cruel.

However, these children were Romanovs and could possibly have become pawns in a power struggle that looked truly desperate for the Bolsheviks until well into 1919.

I'm not arguing that this made their incarceration -- or certainly their deaths -- less cruel, but it did make it something other than pure vindictiveness.  Remember, their three prisons were a palace, followed by two of the largest, most luxurious houses in Tobolsk and Ipatiev, both towns of which had conventional prisons.  Remember that there were periodic demonstrations outside the Ipatiev house by factory workers complaining of the genteel treatment of the Romanovs and even demanding their public execution.  The Ural Soviet could have easily used this pressure as an excuse at least to make their imprisonment harsher.  And it was the Provisional Government, not the Bolsheviks, that first transferred them from their palace incarceration.

When you look at what political incarceration has looked like for legions of other political prisoners, including royal adults and children, this one stands out for all the additional gratuitous cruelty that could have been exacted, but wasn't.

For instance, wouldn't it have been an exquisite torture to have told Nicholas and Alexandra that they were going to be executed in front of their children, then to be followed by the children?  . . . and let them stew in that one for a while before marching them off to the basement.

Let me be clear . . . the Ural Soviet had a very distorted and sick sense of political necessity, and its was a harbinger of a century that took political necessity to progressively more horrific extremes.

But it was not gratuitous sadism . . . yet.


No.  I think they shot them because they hated them.  They shot Nicholas out of political necessity, but not the rest.  I just don't agree it was politically necessary to kill them all.  Also, I believe Elisabeth has brought up, previously, the fact that the servants were shot too.  They even killed some of the pets.  

I also have a problem reconciling the well-behaved, mild-mannered guards, as depicted in FOTR with the blood-thirsty killers both in the basement and at the mine-shaft.  I realize that some of the guards were upset, but somehow there were enough around to carry out the deed.

While it could have been worse, what happened was bad enough.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 10, 2005, 06:50:23 PM
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No.  I think they shot them because they hated them.  They shot Nicholas out of political necessity, but not the rest.  I just don't agree it was politically necessary to kill them all.  Also, I believe Elisabeth has brought up, previously, the fact that the servants were shot too.  They even killed some of the pets.  

I also have a problem reconciling the well-behaved, mild-mannered guards, as depicted in FOTR with the blood-thirsty killers both in the basement and at the mine-shaft.  I realize that some of the guards were upset, but somehow there were enough around to carry out the deed.

While it could have been worse, what happened was bad enough.  


There were guards and then there were guards.  FOTR discussed how the longer one cadre of guards after another was exposed to the Romanovs, the more they softened in their views toward them.

In fact, one of Yurovsky's problems was in finding guards on whom he could rely to carry out the deed.  He finally settled on a large Lett contingent who didn't have enough time or common language to form an affinity to fill out the ranks of the executioners.  So the execution squad was largely composed of people who had not been among the long-term guards.

I agree with you that there was an element of hatred in the killing of the family.  But I think that hatred played out more in the murders of the other Romanovs who were kept in harsher conditions and killed without even the most perverted kind of logic to justify their deaths -- Ella, for instance.

I think the killing of the servants was more about removing witnesses than outright hatred.  And the dogs were killed sporadically.  One was killed on an outside staircase only when he started incessant barking.

And, yes . . . it was bad.  It was horrible.  I perhaps believe more than you do that good and evil are at least partly relative concepts, not absolutes, and that they each have to be judged in the context of the circumstances.  But I don't know that I'm right on that, and I don't know that I should make it my mission to try to convince others.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 10, 2005, 07:45:58 PM
Not wishing to offend anyone, but I don't think non-Orthodox people are in any position to say who is or who isn't a Saint in the Orthodox Church. Along with the Romanovs, millions were slaughtered in Russia, many for refusing to give up their religion. More people were slaughtered for Orthodoxy during the Communist era, than under the persecutions of the early Christian era, and they are all considered as Saints and Martyrs by the Church. Do not forget, that they would not have been considered for Sainthood unless there was already popular veneration - and there had been, and very widespread even through Eastern Europe decades before they were glorified.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 10, 2005, 08:58:01 PM
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I have some candidates for passion-bearer status:

How about the untold thousands of Russian teenagers and young men (about the age of the elder tsarevnas) who were sent into battle without guns and who waited for their comrades to drop so they could use their guns to get off the few rounds of remaining bullets before they, too, fell?

That's passive submission to one's fate if ever I saw it.  And I have a funny feeling God might be better disposed toward them as intercessionaries on my behalf than the person who sent them into battle in such circumstances.


AT LAST!
THIS makes some sense!

heretic
rs
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 10, 2005, 09:05:38 PM
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Not wishing to offend anyone, but I don't think non-Orthodox people are in any position to say who is or who isn't a Saint in the Orthodox Church. Along with the Romanovs, millions were slaughtered in Russia, many for refusing to give up their religion. More people were slaughtered for Orthodoxy during the Communist era, than under the persecutions of the early Christian era, and they are all considered as Saints and Martyrs by the Church. Do not forget, that they would not have been considered for Sainthood unless there was already popular veneration - and there had been, and very widespread even through Eastern Europe decades before they were glorified.



   I agree, and as I have said I am not Orthodox. Nevertheless, we, as people interested in Russian history, have the right to at least ask about the reasons and the politics behind all this "devotion." Because I do not doubt that there are many worthy Orthodox martyrs and saints, I must wonder (as a heretic) what NAOTMAA did that was so special.

 {I suppose that I find it odd that some strangely non Orthodox people here just looovvve that title of "Holy Royal Martyr" here... its so dreeeaaammmy...}

rs
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 11, 2005, 12:35:51 PM
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Well they did spend an entire night waiting for a "rescue" that was made up by the Bolsheviks.  It seems that they must have believed "An Officer" at some point.  But I agree that the letter was very carefully written so they could cover all their bases, as it were (...)

I happen to view promises of imminent freedom in the middle of the night when no such thing was going to happen as a form of torture.  Nicholas said in his diary the staying up all night fully dressed, waiting for a rescue that never came was "torture".  It's psychological torture.


I agree with you, RichC, and in fact the minute I logged out yesterday after saying how the Bolsheviks were not "deliberately cruel" to the family during their captivity, I had second thoughts - but couldn't get back to the forum until now.

We must also remember that the entire "Russian Officer" operation was staged by the Cheka in order to justify executing the imperial family. And even before this, in the tense June days immediately following Michael's murder in Perm, the IF was kept up all night awaiting an imminent "transfer" to some unspecified location that could very well have been a death trap. (For despite the arguments King and Wilson make in FOTR, I remain convinced that the Ural Bolsheviks originally planned to kill the IF around the same time as Michael.) So there were in fact several occasions during which the IF was subjected to needless psychological torture.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 11, 2005, 12:50:08 PM
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There's a really good book out there that might help those us unfamiliar with Russia's history and culture better understand the whole question of the IF's sainthood.  It's called The Idiot by Dostoyevsky.  

It's been years since I read it but The Idiot is about a well-meaning kind hearted man (Prince Myshkin) who everyone thinks is slightly mentally deficient.  In truth, he's quite intelligent, but he possesses a child-like innocence which none of his contemporaries (I think the novel takes place in Tsarskoe Selo) can fathom.  Sound familiar?

Anyway, I highly recommend it.


RichC, you are so right to bring up this novel in the context of the imperial family's sainthood. (It also happens to be my very favorite Russian novel of all!) Prince Myshkin is a hero who is utterly incomprehensible as a hero if we view him through the glass of worldly concerns or standards of success. He is Christlike in the truly Russian sense, that is, a kind of holy fool, or "yurodivyi:" he sees the good in people no matter how much evil they do or are capable of. In the end his childlike simplicity and innocence prove incompatible with this world.

Have you seen the Russian TV series  The Idiot on DVD? It is absolutely superb. I can honestly say that it is far, far superior to every BBC television series I have ever seen, and that is the very highest praise I can offer. This film is so outstanding it won the Solzhenitsyn Prize. If people here don't have time to read The Idiot - spare 9 hours for the series, you will not be disappointed! And you will have an invaluable introduction to Russian Orthodox culture.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 11, 2005, 02:49:44 PM
Thanks for the recommendation, Elisabeth.  It looks like they have it on Amazon, so I might check it out, if I can afford the $50 cost.  I'll check to see if it's available for rent anywhere.  I've also heard that the Kurosawa verison is also quite good.  Dostoyevsky was his favorite writer!

Has anyone ever bought anything from russiandvd.com?  It's on there for $44.99.

Rich
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 11, 2005, 04:05:10 PM
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I agree with you, RichC, and in fact the minute I logged out yesterday after saying how the Bolsheviks were not "deliberately cruel" to the family during their captivity, I had second thoughts - but couldn't get back to the forum until now.


I'd like to leave aside the question of why the family and its retainers were murdered for the moment and look at the captivity itself.  (I think the murders pose a very different set of questions than the manner of their captivity.)

When it comes to the captivity itself, if the Bolsheviks had handled all their political prisoners as well as the imperial family, they would have gone down in history as the most humane government ever in that regard.  Even in the Ipatiev house, they had a maid, a cook, and a doctor with them.  The tsar still had access to some private funds.  Cleaning crews were brought in each week to scrub floors and change linens.  Laundry was sent out and returned cleaned and pressed.  The family was allowed religious services up until near the end.  They wore jewelry.  They were able to read, play cards, write in their diaries.  Their exercise was limited, but they were allowed some.  (Remember that taking them out of the house posed certain risks.)

Compare this to the U.S.' handling of political prisoners at Abu Ghraib a century later  -- where prisoners were paraded around naked in front of the opposite sex, where they were subjected to other sexual humiliations and photographed in the process, where prisoners were forced to wear collars and chains, where several prisoners died inexplicably.  (Don't get me wrong here.  I actually support the imprisonment without trial of suspected terrorists in certain cases . . . but I think necessity does not justify gratuitous cruelty.)  Or compare it to GITMO, where U.S. guards "accidentally" urinate through grates onto prisoners.

Given the choice, I might have preferred to be held by the Bolsheviks at the Ipatiev house in 1917 instead of by the U.S. in 2005.

Apparently, the FOTR does not persuade everyone, but I do think it's the best current analysis of both old and newly-available evidence.  And, if King and Wilson are to be believed, the "cruelty" of waiting in the basement before being executed had less to do with an intent to torture than with complete ineptness in arranging the logistics of removing the bodies.

I know this is very contentious ground, and it's hard for me to make these points without seeming not to care that the family was murdered.  That, however, is absolutely not the case.  I think Nicholas was so discredited at the time, even among monarchists, that he and his family could have been sent into exile with very little real risk to the Bolshevik government.

But I think it's worth the contention to stand by the proposition that events occur both in the context of their times and in the context of other similar events at other times and places.  And, in the long, sorry legacy of political imprisonment, the events in the Ipatiev house prior to the murder don't even get near the head of the line to take top honors for hideous, gratuitous abuse.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 11, 2005, 08:26:09 PM
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Given the choice, I might have preferred to be held by the Bolsheviks at the Ipatiev house in 1917 than by the U.S. in 2005.

Apparently, the FOTR does not persuade everyone, but I do think it's the best current analysis of both old and newly-available evidence.  And, if King and Wilson are to be believed, the "cruelty" of waiting in the basement before being executed had less to do with an intent to torture than with complete ineptness in arranging the logistics of removing the bodies.

I know this is very contentious ground, and it's hard for me to make these points without seeming not to care that the family was murdered.  That, however, is absolutely not the case.  I think Nicholas was so discredited at the time, even among monarchists, that he and his family could have been sent into exile with very little real risk to the Bolshevik government.

But I think it's worth the contention to stand by the proposition that events occur both in the context of their times and in the context of other similar events at other times and places.  And, in the long, sorry legacy of political imprisonment, the events in the Ipatiev house prior to the murder don't even get near the head of the line to take top honors for hideous, gratuitous abuse.


Well spoken! {or "written"}
    After all - the "Ipatiev House" and their other "prison houses" were a d&mn sight better than the conditions at the Peter and Paul or any other actual jail would have been. I am rather surprised that people so quickly forget the fact that families were not generally allowed to stay together when so incarcerated. This is significant and to the benefit of the revolutionary guards - as it would have caused the family far more 'torture' if they had been kept apart - but they were not!
     Thanks tsarfan for also remarking on the current political situation in the "Iraqi War"  - it's a valid comparision.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 12, 2005, 02:59:55 AM
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I'd like to leave aside the question of why the family and its retainers were murdered for the moment and look at the captivity itself.  (I think the murders pose a very different set of questions than the manner of their captivity.)


No Tsarfan. You can leave aside the question of why, but you can't put aside the fact that.  You cannot separate their captivity from their murder.  Andrea Yates and Susan Smith were good mothers until they MURDERED THEIR CHILDREN.

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When it comes to the captivity itself, if the Bolsheviks had handled all their political prisoners as well as the imperial family, they would have gone down in history as the most humane government ever in that regard.
 

If the Bolsheviks had handled all their political prisoners as well as the imperial family, they would have murdered every single political prisoner they ever got their hands on.

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Even in the Ipatiev house, they had a maid, a cook, and a doctor with them.  The tsar still had access to some private funds.  Cleaning crews were brought in each week to scrub floors and change linens.  Laundry was sent out and returned cleaned and pressed.  The family was allowed religious services up until near the end.  They wore jewelry.  They were able to read, play cards, write in their diaries.  Their exercise was limited, but they were allowed some.  (Remember that taking them out of the house posed certain risks.)


Sounds like a regular five-star hotel.  Just like the Hotel California.  You can check out but you can never leave.  

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Compare this to the U.S.' handling of political prisoners at Abu Ghraib a century later  -- where prisoners were paraded around naked in front of the opposite sex, where they were subjected to other sexual humiliations and photographed in the process, where prisoners were forced to wear collars and chains, where several prisoners died inexplicably.
   

Yes, but Tsarfan, events occur both in the context of their times and in the context of other similar events at other times and places.  

Also, I've heard there's a new book coming out shortly by a couple of independent researchers that will show the vast majority of prisoners at Abu Ghraib were actually well-treated by their jailers.  The book is purported to be the best current analysis of both old and newly-available evidence.

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(Don't get me wrong here.  I actually support the imprisonment without trial of suspected terrorists in certain cases . . . but I think necessity does not justify gratuitous cruelty.)
 

Yes, I say it's time we locked up Bea Arthur.  You never know...


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Given the choice, I might have preferred to be held by the Bolsheviks at the Ipatiev house in 1917 instead of by the U.S. in 2005.
 

Me too!  I wish I had been around then and had the chance to live in the Ipatiev house.  Never mind the fact that I would have wound up getting shot to death with my whole family, and my body chopped up and burned up out in the woods.  That's a separate issue!

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And, if King and Wilson are to be believed, the "cruelty" of waiting in the basement before being executed had less to do with an intent to torture than with complete ineptness in arranging the logistics of removing the bodies.
 

And the false promises of freedom from the phony rescue gang?  Is that also an example of their ineptness?


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I think Nicholas was so discredited at the time, even among monarchists, that he and his family could have been sent into exile with very little real risk to the Bolshevik government.


Since when?  You have argued in post after post that they were killed out of necessity!  Now you are saying their killing wasn't necessary?  


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But I think it's worth the contention to stand by the proposition that events occur both in the context of their times and in the context of other similar events at other times and places.  And, in the long, sorry legacy of political imprisonment, the events in the Ipatiev house prior to the murder don't even get near the head of the line to take top honors for hideous, gratuitous abuse.


I am amazed at your ability to judge killers on the treatment of their victims before they killed them, as if the killing part is somehow less important... 
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 12, 2005, 08:26:26 AM
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No Tsarfan. You can leave aside the question of why, but you can't put aside the fact that.  You cannot separate their captivity from their murder.  Andrea Yates and Susan Smith were good mothers until they MURDERED THEIR CHILDREN.


There is a fundamental question about the Ipatiev period that has always nagged me and to which I have never found a satisfactory explanation.  If the Ural Soviet was motivated purely by hatred and determined from day one to murder the family, I can make no sense of the weeks during which they held the family in captivity.  Why didn't they simply murder them the moment they got their hands on them?

Instead, they converted one of the finest houses in the town into a prison.  They arranged food and cleaning services.  They weathered several protests from the local populace demanding harsher treatment.  They changed the command of the guards because the first cadre of guards was beginning to sympathize with the family and increasing the risk of escape or rescue.  Even when they finally did kill them, they waited until almost the last moment before the Whites were upon them.

And don't tell me that it was just because they were trying to gin up a case to convince Moscow of the need for the murders.  They had already violated Moscow's plans for the Romanovs (whatever those were) by seizing them in the first place, so the Ural Soviet was perfectly willing to take action independent of Moscow.

All this is why I think the captivity and the murders are separate questions.  I think there was much more debate among differing factions within the Ural Soviet about the fates of the prisoners than is generally thought.  The 78 days and the handling of the prisoners in the house during that time just makes no sense if their deaths were driven only by unbridled hatred and were a foreordained outcome from the moment they fell into the Ural Soviets' hands.

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 Me too!  I wish I had been around then and had the chance to live in the Ipatiev house.  Never mind the fact that I would have wound up getting shot to death with my whole family, and my body chopped up and burned up out in the woods.  That's a separate issue!


Ever thought about the prisoners in GITMO and Abu Ghraib?  They're incarcerated because they are deemed determined to commit mayhem against American lives and interests.  Think the doors are just going to spring open one day to release them back into the world?  They're there until they die -- without outside contact and without ever having been put on trial.

You tell me which fate is worse.

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And the false promises of freedom from the phony rescue gang?  Is that also an example of their ineptness?


For starters, this stratagem apparently began with a real note that was found from a purported rescuer and that the Cheka decided to co-opt.

There are three ways to interpret their motives in doing so.  (1) The Ural Soviet needed an excuse they could use with Moscow to justify the executions.  (2) The Ural Soviet wanted a guage of just how far the Romanovs would go in attempting escape or rescue in order to determine whether any additional precautions were necessary in the imprisonment.  (3) The Ural Soviet was being gratuitously cruel.

I think some combination of the first two reasons is the more likely explanation.

First, I don't know that holding out a hope of rescue (which the prisoners might not have know to be false) was necessarily cruel from the prisoners' perspectives.  Second, with an almost endless array of things they could have done to torture the family, why would they have picked this particular one and let it go at that?  Why not separate the children from their parents?  Why not put personal guards on each prisoner around the clock?  Why not physically torture them?  Why not taunt them with their impending deaths?

If the Ural Soviet was motivated primarily by hatred and a desire to torture and this was the best they could do, they were an inept lot indeed.

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Since when?  You have argued in post after post that they were killed out of necessity!  Now you are saying their killing wasn't necessary?


What I have argued is that the Bolsheviks thought the killings were necessary.  That doesn't mean I think they were correct in that assessment.


BTW . . . should we move this discussion over to the "Final Chapter" thread?  I know it started as a debate about whether the captivity and executions created the requisite conditions for passion-bearer status or sainthood, but we're definitely beyond that.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 12, 2005, 09:01:54 AM
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I'd like to leave aside the question of why the family and its retainers were murdered for the moment and look at the captivity itself.  (I think the murders pose a very different set of questions than the manner of their captivity.)


I agree with RichC that it is impossible to separate the period of captivity from the murders that ended it. If you look at an actual timeline of events in the Ipatiev House, it becomes abundantly clear that the Ural Regional Soviet wanted to kill the family all along, and was merely awaiting the best opportunity to do so without getting into trouble with Moscow.

June 13 - Murder of Michael in Perm in the early morning hours. In Ekaterinburg, Commandant Avdeev informs the IF that they should pack their suitcases for an immediate departure; he also promises them the return of Nagorny and Sednyov (both men had been shot 2 weeks previously). The family is told they will be moved because of "anarchist disturbances" taking place in town. (By late afternoon anarchist leader arrested and town calm.) At 11 p.m., Avdeev informs the family that they will remain at the Ipatiev House for a few more days. "And so we were left sitting on our bags for the whole night and didn't unpack a thing," as Nicholas recorded in his diary.

Remember that all the murders - in Perm, Ekaterinburg, and Alapaevsk - were preceded by an announcement  to the victims that they were being moved to another, unknown location.

June 14 - 8 p.m. Avdeev informs family that they will not be moved after all. (The "anarchist disturbances" in town have already been over for more than 24 hours.)

June 20 - First letter from a "Russian Officer" passed on to family after being discovered and rewritten by the Cheka.

June 24/25 - Second letter from a "Russian Officer." Family begins staying up nights awaiting rescue.

June 28 - Third letter from a "Russian Officer." Family responds that it does not want to escape and can only be carried off by force. (But Alexandra continues to "arrange the medicines" in the weeks to come, perhaps in anticipation of a rescue attempt.) Meanwhile Beloborodov requests direct cable access to the Kremlin.

June 29 - The Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet and the Ekaterinburg Cheka decide to "liquidate" the Romanov family and their suite "no later than July 15."

July 17 - Early morning hours, family and retainers murdered.

So for the entire last month of their lives the IF were living in a perpetual state of suspense, expecting to be moved or rescued, and staying up several nights in a row in anticipation of the latter, only to have their hopes repeatedly dashed. (In the meantime, more than two weeks before they were actually killed, a sentence of death had already been passed on them.) As RichC has stated, all this was a form of psychological torture, and whether it was intentionally sadistic or not is beside the point - the stress and anxiety must have been almost unendurable.  


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: CatherineNY on June 12, 2005, 09:02:28 AM
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The next comment about warriors was totally unrelated to poor old St Francis and referred to the many Catholic saints who were so called because the wars they waged and the "heretics" they slaughtered were slaughtered in the name of the cross and Holy Mother Church.



30 Dollar Princess, can you please give me four or five examples of the "many" Catholic saints who "slaughtered heretics"? If there are "many", naming four or five should not require much effort.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: etonexile on June 12, 2005, 10:01:56 AM
The more I read...the more glad I am to be non-religious.... ::)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 12, 2005, 10:20:37 AM
    I suppose that I am still not clear as to what made them "Passion Bearers" ? Many good Russian Orthodox went calmly to their fate in the First World War as tsarfan stated so well, but I doubt that they were all made saints...

Its all politics!
   ROCA made them saints and now the Russian Church has no real choice - also it's nice for all those rich  western tourists keen to see all those dreamy pictures of the cute family; westerners, who as Bob has stated have always had a much more romantic and favourable  opinion of NAOTMAA.
   Any miracles? Maybe there are no such magical events required by the Orthodox church - I don't know.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 12, 2005, 10:48:17 AM
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   I suppose that I am still not clear as to what made them "Passion Bearers" ? Many good Russian Orthodox went calmly to their fate in the First World War as tsarfan stated so well, but I doubt that they were all made saints...


Those "good Russian Orthodox" were soldiers carrying weapons and fighting for their lives, so no, they don't qualify as passion bearers. But I believe that at the same time ROCA beatified the IF they also beatified thousands of ordinary Russians (including priests and nuns) who died during the Bolshevik terror.

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Its all politics!


Well, a lot of of it was admittedly politics. But not all of it. Some genuinely religious concerns were also involved in the decision to canonize the family, as Georgiy has outlined in detail.
 
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ROCA made them saints and now the Russian Church has no real choice - also it's nice for all those rich  western tourists keen to see all those dreamy pictures of the cute family; westerners, who as Bob has stated have always had a much more romantic and favourable  opinion of NAOTMAA.


Actually I'm not sure that last statement is true nowadays. The decision to canonize the IF has turned out to be very popular in Russia. My husband just got back from Moscow and he reports that the bookstores are full of books about the IF (he brought me back one, "Tsesarevich," about Alexei). According to him, the IF is every bit as popular as Lenin and Stalin, for example, which is really saying something (and reflects the fragmentation of national identity that has occurred since 1991).

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 Any miracles? Maybe there are no such magical events required by the Orthodox church - I don't know.


I think there are miracles recorded on some Russian Orthodox web sites. But one thing has always puzzled me about the IF's canonization and that is,  I thought it was a requirement for sainthood in the Russian Orthodox Church that the corpse of the saint remain uncorrupted. Supposedly there should be no signs of decay. This was certainly not the case with the IF and their servants.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 12, 2005, 11:11:15 AM
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If you look at an actual timeline of events in the Ipatiev House, it becomes abundantly clear that the Ural Regional Soviet wanted to kill the family all along, and was merely awaiting the best opportunity to do so without getting into trouble with Moscow.


I have no doubt that some members of the Ural Soviet wanted to kill the family all along.  But I think that Moscow was more worried about how to exert effective control over the Ural Soviet than the Ural Soviet was over how to keep Moscow placated.

The Romanovs were important prisoners, and Moscow had some sort of agenda with them -- a public trial, a bargaining chip with the Germans, a bargaining chip with the Whites, a public execution . . . who knows?  Yet the Ural Soviet was quite willing to derail this agenda by seizing the prisoners from a Moscow-appointed custodian.  Why would they have been so worried about flouting Moscow by killing the prisoners?

My point was that the way in which the captivity was handled indicates, at least to me, that there was some sort of indecision behind the scenes of just what to do with the imperial family.  Maybe it was that initially some members wanted their deaths and others didn't.  Maybe it was that all members wanted their deaths, but some wanted it immediately and others wanted to hold out for some benefit in trade.  Maybe it was a debate over whether to include everyone in the massacre (some available evidence actually indicates this decision came late in the game).  Maybe everyone initially wanted their immediate deaths, but something occurred to give them pause.

There are a host of techniques used in industrial engineering (six sigma, Kepner-Tregoe, etc.) that are designed to deduce underlying causality from observable events.  The tenet they all hold in common is that when a suspected cause leaves key elements of the observed event unexplained, you probably have the cause wrong.  I think this approach can be applied in the study of history to test hypotheses.

If the Ural Soviet was worried about Moscow, why did they dare to seize the Romanovs from Moscow's control?

I haven't yet heard that explanation.

If the Ural Soviet was motivated solely by hatred and was determined from day one to kill all the prisoners at the first opportunity, then I want to hear a logical explanation for why they weren't simply tossed into the town prison to await that opportunity.

And I haven't yet heard that explanation.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: etonexile on June 12, 2005, 11:27:46 AM
Yes...I should imagine that the Ural Soviet had planned to kill them all along...How had Moscow lost control of these high-profile prisoners?....Did they WANT control of the IF?....Did they think that the IF would just disappear in the  confusion?....And why the killing just then,just there?....The business about..."Your family have tried to liberate you....bang-bang...."....they could have just been loaded into more trucks and moved away.... ???
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 12, 2005, 12:01:04 PM
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But I think that Moscow was more worried about how to exert effective control over the Ural Soviet than the Ural Soviet was over how to keep Moscow placated.


I disagree, for reasons I'll explicate below.

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My point was that the way in which the captivity was handled indicates, at least to me, that there was some sort of indecision behind the scenes of just what to do with the imperial family.  Maybe it was that initially some members wanted their deaths and others didn't.  Maybe it was that all members wanted their deaths, but some wanted it immediately and others wanted to hold out for some benefit in trade.  Maybe it was a debate over whether to include everyone in the massacre (some available evidence actually indicates this decision came late in the game).  Maybe everyone initially wanted their immediate deaths, but something occurred to give them pause.


I actually agree with you here. But I think most of the indecision derived from one source: ambition. How far were certain members of the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet willing to go in flouting Moscow's orders? At what risk to their future careers in the Bolshevik party? How many of these men like Beloborodov were dreaming of eventual promotion to a post in Moscow as opposed to staying in a provincial backwater like Ekaterinburg for the rest of their lives? This is why, IMO, we can't easily conclude that the men in charge at Ekaterinburg were on their own when they decided to execute the Romanovs. I think it was a joint decision, made with Moscow, over a period of about a month (Michael's murder was a "trial balloon," as King and Wilson put it, to see not only how Moscow but also how the rest of the world would react to the grand duke's sudden disappearance). With the Whites advancing rapidly, Ekaterinburg was in a strong position to demand what it had presumably wanted all along in seizing Nicholas and Alexandra en route to Moscow: the historical honor of executing the last Romanov tsar and whatever family members they could get their hands on.

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If the Ural Soviet was motivated solely by hatred and was determined from day one to kill all the prisoners at the first opportunity, then I want to hear a logical explanation for why they weren't simply tossed into the town prison to await that opportunity.

And I haven't yet heard that explanation.


See, I don't think they were motivated solely by hatred. I think the top people were motivated by two things: ideology and ambition. We can see these factors at work even - or especially in - Yurovsky's memoirs. (And he wasn't even a top-level player.) He's at pains to present himself as the ideal revolutionary: cool, calm, controlled, organized, a rational instrument of history and the people's justice. Not a sadist, not filled with hatred: no, on the contrary! Rather, he explains that the original plan of execution, to shoot directly at the victims' hearts, was intended to prevent unnecessary suffering. The Revolution is not vengeful or sadistic! Any suffering that was caused was a result of the victims' own "greed," in wearing vests armored with concealed jewels. And so on, and so forth. Whatever Yurovsky felt deep down towards the Romanovs, he kept it very close to the chest. These were ideological murders, planned murders, not murders committed in a fit of passion.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 12, 2005, 12:50:07 PM
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With the Whites advancing rapidly, Ekaterinburg was in a strong position to demand what it had presumably wanted all along in seizing Nicholas and Alexandra en route to Moscow: the historical honor of executing the last Romanov tsar and whatever family members they could get their hands on.


I agree with some of your analysis.  However, the point about "historical honor" still leaves a couple of loose threads.  If they were seeking honor in killing the whole family, why did official communiques for so long mention only the execution of Nicholas and claim the rest of the family was moved?  And why wasn't Michael's death also announced to garner such honor?  Wouldn't one of the points of the murders be to show the populace that there was no hope of going back at a juncture when the survival of the revolution was in doubt?  And wouldn't even the Bolsheviks have understood that killing the retainers would raise eyebrows among many who might have accepted the Romanovs' deaths as necessary or just vengeance?

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See, I don't think they were motivated solely by hatred. I think the top people were motivated by two things: ideology and ambition.


I agree with this.  Remember, my original point was that hatred just seemed too pat an explanation for an event so riddled with inconsistencies.

However, amid all this agreement, I still cannot divine an explanation of the Ipatiev house captivity.  Yes, the captivity was inherently cruel, and some specific actions -- no matter what the motivations of the captors -- certainly were cruel in effect.  But, no matter how much we want to paint the captors as nothing but despicable, ambitious murderers, there were signficant aspects of the conditions of the captivity that simply don't jive with that simplistic a view.

To rehash a perhaps silly example:  Nicholas complained of pilfering of their personal effects.  So their jewelry was collected, placed in a locked box left in their living quarters, and Nicholas was given a receipt.  Was the whole Ipatiev episode just a collossal, elaborate charade, mounted with a cast of dozens, logistically complex, and at considerable cost?  For what purpose?  For what audience?

It just doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 12, 2005, 01:29:05 PM
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I agree with some of your analysis.  However, the point about "historical honor" still leaves a couple of loose threads.  If they were seeking honor in killing the whole family, why did official communiques for so long mention only the execution of Nicholas and claim the rest of the family was moved?  And why wasn't Michael's death also announced to garner such honor?  Wouldn't one of the points of the murders be to show the populace that there was no hope of going back at a juncture when the survival of the revolution was in doubt?  And wouldn't even the Bolsheviks have understood that killing the retainers would raise eyebrows among many who might have accepted the Romanovs' deaths as necessary or just vengeance?


Ah, but you see you're mistaking revolutionary "honor" with honor in the universal sense. The Bolsheviks were well aware that their sense of revolutionary justice was not shared by the rest of the civilized world, or even the rest of Russia, particularly if that justice was exercised at the expense of the innocent offspring of the imperial dynasty. Nicholas and Alexandra might have been widely hated by their countrymen, but Russians are notoriously sentimental about children.

The disappearance of Michael was a "trial balloon" on many levels, not least of which was simply to gauge how much public - and international - outrage could be avoided by a simple "disappearance" as opposed to an announcement of an execution.  Remember, Lenin allowed Nicholas II's death to be widely publicized but the IF itself, like Michael, simply "disappeared" without a trace for a few years before the Bolsheviks admitted that they had all been killed. This is the classic Richard III model of getting rid of one's political opponents - deprive your enemies of a banner to rally around, deprive them of righteous indignation, instead let them stew in frustration, not knowing if the rightful successor to the throne is alive or dead. Thus Sokolov's vehemence in insisting that Nicholas and Alexandra and their children were all dead, despite the absence of bodily remains. Because otherwise the monarchists among the Whites were left in confused disarray.  

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However, amid all this agreement, I still cannot divine an explanation of the Ipatiev house captivity.  Yes, the captivity was inherently cruel, and some specific actions -- no matter what the motivations of the captors -- certainly were cruel in effect.  But, no matter how much we want to paint the captors as nothing but despicable, ambitious murderers, there were signficant aspects of the conditions of the captivity that simply don't jive with that simplistic a view.

To rehash a perhaps silly example:  Nicholas complained of pilfering of their personal effects.  So their jewelry was collected, placed in a locked box left in their living quarters, and Nicholas was given a receipt.  Was the whole Ipatiev episode just a collossal, elaborate charade, mounted with a cast of dozens, logistically complex, and at considerable cost?  For what purpose?  For what audience?

It just doesn't add up.


It does add up, if you understand the Bolshevik revolutionary model of asceticism and extreme conscientiousness. Everything is very "scientific," "rational," and "organized," for the ultimate good of the people - not the Romanovs, but the people. Of course Yurovsky took an inventory of the jewelry the IF wore, with the ultimate purpose of confiscating all of it and sending it off to Moscow, intact, not a single item pilfered (Yurovsky would have taken an especial pride in this fact!). After all, this was only the beginning of his final inventory, which will ultimately include all the items hidden on the grand duchesses' bodies...

Recall the fact that the Bolsheviks knew, from Baroness Buxhoeveden, that the IF was carrying millions of rubles' worth of jewelry on their persons. Yurovsky might have had the idea that he would come across some of this jewelry in his inventory, or, more likely, he was simply lulling the prisoners' fears and allowing them to believe that his regime would be more controlled and organized than Avdeev's (as indeed it was). There's something very pedantic about Yurovsky; he's the type who is at especial pains to dot all his i's and cross all his t's. Be that as it may, after the murders he complained to the Ural Regional Soviet and Cheka that he had not been allowed to conduct personal body searches of each prisoner - so no doubt this rather cursory jewelry inventory had been ordered from the powers on high.

Of course the audience for this elaborate "charade" was the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, the Cheka, and ultimately of course - Moscow.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 12, 2005, 03:15:18 PM
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Actually I'm not sure that last statement is true nowadays. The decision to canonize the IF has turned out to be very popular in Russia. My husband just got back from Moscow and he reports that the bookstores are full of books about the IF (he brought me back one, "Tsesarevich," about Alexei). According to him, the IF is every bit as popular as Lenin and Stalin, for example, which is really saying something (and reflects the fragmentation of national identity that has occurred since 1991).


I think there are miracles recorded on some Russian Orthodox web sites. But one thing has always puzzled me about the IF's canonization and that is,  I thought it was a requirement for sainthood in the Russian Orthodox Church that the corpse of the saint remain uncorrupted. Supposedly there should be no signs of decay. This was certainly not the case with the IF and their servants.


Good points
   Yet my friends back from Russia tell just the opposite story... that most Russians don't care, and it's mostly westerners and the new Orthodox converts (often repatriated emigrees) who really believe... Hmmm....  :-/
   Your friends and mine certainly seem to run in different circles!

About the bodies -- well maybe Georgiy can advise us on that point!

rskkiya
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Lizameridox on June 12, 2005, 07:42:08 PM
Two points re incorruption of saints' relics:  

Two much admired saints in the Russian Orthodox Church that have been found to be little more than bones are St. Seraphim of Sarov (glorified during Tsar-Martyr Nicholas' reign) and St. Nektary of Optina.  In the words of a recent article in The Orthodox Word, no. 240, 2005,  

    'As regards the Russian New Martyrs of the twentieth century incorrupt relics are rarely encountered (the holy relics of Nun-Martyr Elizabeth {sic} being one of the few exceptions).  Likewise, one does not hear about a multitude of remarkable miracles from their holy relics, as is the case with the relics of the martyrs of the first centuries.

Prior to the twentieth century an Russian Orthodox saint named Feodor was martyred, by the process of burning.  No relics of him are extant, but he is no less a saint for the lack of them.  Sort of reminds you of the Tsarevich and his sister....
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 12, 2005, 08:24:56 PM
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Ah, but you see you're mistaking revolutionary "honor" with honor in the universal sense. The Bolsheviks were well aware that their sense of revolutionary justice was not shared by the rest of the civilized world, or even the rest of Russia, particularly if that justice was exercised at the expense of the innocent offspring of the imperial dynasty. Nicholas and Alexandra might have been widely hated by their countrymen, but Russians are notoriously sentimental about children.  


Sounds logical.  Also explains why Yurovsky removed the kitchen boy before the massacre.

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The disappearance of Michael was a "trial balloon" on many levels, not least of which was simply to gauge how much public - and international - outrage could be avoided by a simple "disappearance" as opposed to an announcement of an execution.  Remember, Lenin allowed Nicholas II's death to be widely publicized but the IF itself, like Michael, simply "disappeared" without a trace for a few years before the Bolsheviks admitted that they had all been killed. This is the classic Richard III model of getting rid of one's political opponents - deprive your enemies of a banner to rally around, deprive them of righteous indignation, instead let them stew in frustration, not knowing if the rightful successor to the throne is alive or dead. Thus Sokolov's vehemence in insisting that Nicholas and Alexandra and their children were all dead, despite the absence of bodily remains. Because otherwise the monarchists among the Whites were left in confused disarray.  


This makes sense, except for one thing.  If Lenin was in on this, why wait so long to execute the plan?  Why take the risk that the prisoners would be rescued in the meantime?  Why wait until the White army guns were within earshot?  Remember, the executioners cut it so close that they were afraid of the Whites coming upon them during the destruction of the bodies.  And why set up such an elaborate household in the center of a town where an execution would be difficult to conceal (which Yurovsky nevertheless tried rather clumsily to do)?  The Ipatiev house only makes sense as a prison if there was some concern for the comfort of the prisoners, and it makes no sense as a place in which to carry out a mass execution.  A relatively cramped basement room was an absurd venue for a firing squad to take out almost a dozen people simultaneously.  I can make no sense of it unless the execution was carried out with minimum time for advance planning.

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Recall the fact that the Bolsheviks knew, from Baroness Buxhoeveden, that the IF was carrying millions of rubles' worth of jewelry on their persons.

Be that as it may, after the murders he complained to the Ural Regional Soviet and Cheka that he had not been allowed to conduct personal body searches of each prisoner - so no doubt this rather cursory jewelry inventory had been ordered from the powers on high.


Baroness Buxhoeveden was apparently quite the double-dealer, and she no doubt compromised the family.  But if Yurovsky knew specifically about the jewels on the prisoners' persons, why did he risk the destruction of the jewels during a fusilade of gunfire . . . and risk the jewels forming body armor?

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Of course the audience for this elaborate "charade" was the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, the Cheka, and ultimately of course - Moscow.  


If not the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, who was authorizing the considerable expense and manpower required to turn the Ipatiev house into a prison?  This was an operation of considerable political sensitivity that required funding and the diversion of significant resources.  Why would they have needed to put on a show for themselves?  And why would Moscow or the Cheka have cared whether or not the prisoners were well cared for, if there was a prior understanding they were going to be killed at the first politically-expedient opportunity?  What was the purpose of the show?

And I only used inventorying the jewelry as one example of the "charade".  Why were priests allowed in for religious services?  Why was an additional doctor allowed to visit?  Why were cleaning women provided instead of having the prisoners clean their own quarters?

I still don't understand why the Presidium, the Cheka, and Moscow needed such a show.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rskkiya on June 12, 2005, 09:47:03 PM
As I understand it, the most up to date evidence suggests that Lenin was NOT involved.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 12, 2005, 11:28:55 PM
While many Saints have incorrupt relics, not all do. After all, we venerate many, many martyrs from the time of Roman persecution, who were eaten by lions, burnt to ashes, etc, of whom there are no physical relics, so, no, sainthood doesn't require incorrupt relics.

From what I can tell, as Saints they are popular in Russia. Most of our parish is made of Russians who have emigrated well after the fall of Communism, and the IF are certainly seen as Saints at our Church! My parents-in-law also blessed us with an icon of the IF when they came over from Russia. There are many accounts of their miracles on Orthodox websites as has been stated. I myself do not doubt for a minute they have been blessed to attain the Heavenly Kingdom and intercede for those who ask their help.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 05:37:55 AM
I was raised a Protestant and admittedly know very little about sainthood.  My understanding is that the only commentary on intercession that Jesus ever made was to say that people come to the Father only through him.

What is the genesis and scriptural authority of the concept that God will grant things to you if a saint asks for it rather than if you ask yourself?

This is an honest question.  I do not accept much of Protestant teaching, so I'm not pushing that agenda.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 13, 2005, 06:19:46 AM
In the Sermon on the Mount, & on other occasions in the Gospels, Jesus asked people to pray for one another.
The 'Communion of the Saints', in which the Orthodox & Catholic Churches believe, means that the people on earth are united to those in Heaven. In God, there is no difference between the 'living' & the 'dead' because they are all alive in Him. Therefore, just as people on earth can pray for one another, so too can people in heaven pray for people on earth.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 06:42:19 AM
Thanks.

Can people on earth pray to anyone in heaven and expect to obtain results, or only to saints?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 13, 2005, 06:47:16 AM
Anyone who is in heaven is a saint; so people on earth can pray to anyone in heaven! The fact that someone is declared a saint really means that the churches are quite convinced that that person is in heaven.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 06:54:48 AM
Thanks, Bluetoria.  This helps me decipher some of the discussion on this thread which I have not understood.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 08:50:11 AM
Most protestants see praying to saints as a form of idolatry.  They see prayer as a form of worship and don't understand why Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Copts, etc. don't just pray to Jesus.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 13, 2005, 09:49:54 AM
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 If Lenin was in on this, why wait so long to execute the plan?  Why take the risk that the prisoners would be rescued in the meantime?  Why wait until the White army guns were within earshot?  Remember, the executioners cut it so close that they were afraid of the Whites coming upon them during the destruction of the bodies.  And why set up such an elaborate household in the center of a town where an execution would be difficult to conceal (which Yurovsky nevertheless tried rather clumsily to do)?  The Ipatiev house only makes sense as a prison if there was some concern for the comfort of the prisoners, and it makes no sense as a place in which to carry out a mass execution.  A relatively cramped basement room was an absurd venue for a firing squad to take out almost a dozen people simultaneously.  I can make no sense of it unless the execution was carried out with minimum time for advance planning.


Well, as usual we're talking past each other, Tsarfan! Of course Lenin and Trotsky and crew had good reasons for wanting to keep the IF alive for as long as possible - recall that Trotsky at least wanted a show trial of Nicholas in Moscow, and Lenin was still conducting some sort of under-the-table negotiations with the Germans about the Romanov women - whether in good faith or not isn't clear. Since various foreign powers - Britain, Germany, Denmark - were all concerning themselves with the welfare of the IF to some extent (at least to inquire after their health), and since Germany very much had the upper hand over Russia in the months immediately following the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Lenin was understandably cautious in deciding the ultimate fate of the imperial prisoners. For all these reasons the Ural Regional Soviet was expected to provide the IF with a relatively comfortable imprisonment.

In other words, I'm not saying that there wasn't some disagreement between Moscow and the Ural Regional Soviet over the fate of the IF, I'm merely arguing that Moscow had the upperhand in the matter and probably made the final decision about executing the IF - whilst being careful not to leave any sort of paper trail, of course (like other high profile crimes of the 20th century this one was probably ordered verbally). We know there was constant communication and traveling back and forth between Ekaterinburg and Moscow in the weeks preceding the murders. Probably the executions were considered a contingency plan by Moscow. If the IF was in any danger of falling into White hands, then the Ural Regional Soviet had permission to kill them all.  

Nor was I arguing that the murders of the IF were well planned. The problem was one of logistics since, as you say, the IH was in the center of town and even within a block or so of the British consulate. By mid July, with the advance of White troops, it would have been difficult to drive such a large party of prisoners out of town and shoot them "whilst trying to escape," as the Ural Bolsheviks did in the case of Grand Duke Michael and the Alapaevsk prisoners. (Although I'm still not convinced that the June 13 plan to move the IF wasn't possibly the work of some hotheads in the Ural Regional Soviet who wanted to kill the IF "whilst trying to escape" - this would necessarily have been without the approval of Moscow and is perhaps why the plan was aborted.) So the Bolsheviks were left with little choice but to kill the family in the house. Some of the execution plans discussed were throwing bombs at the family or stabbing them in their sleep. As we all know, they eventually decided to shoot the family in a small room on the lower level where sounds would be muffled.    

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Baroness Buxhoeveden was apparently quite the double-dealer, and she no doubt compromised the family.  But if Yurovsky knew specifically about the jewels on the prisoners' persons, why did he risk the destruction of the jewels during a fusilade of gunfire . . . and risk the jewels forming body armor?


Perhaps I mispoke, I didn't mean to say that he knew the grand duchesses were wearing the jewels, he knew only that they had the jewels somewhere, either on their persons or concealed in their other belongings (and as it turned out many of the jewels had been sewn into different outfits of clothing and were discovered after the murders when Yurovsky's men searched the prisoners' rooms for the first time).

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If not the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, who was authorizing the considerable expense and manpower required to turn the Ipatiev house into a prison?  This was an operation of considerable political sensitivity that required funding and the diversion of significant resources.  Why would they have needed to put on a show for themselves?


They were putting on the show for Moscow, not for themselves. They were showing how efficient and reliable and professional they all were. (And wasn't Moscow actually paying some of the expenses associated with the House of Special Purpose?) I don't think the higher-ups in the Ural Regional Soviet ever had any intention of being sadistic in their treatment of the family; they were interested in exacting revolutionary justice, not vengeance. The revolution was supposed to be above such petty vindictiveness.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 10:35:14 AM
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Probably the executions were considered a contingency plan by Moscow. If the IF was in any danger of falling into White hands, then the Ural Regional Soviet had permission to kill them all.


Yes.  This is what I've been trying to say all along.  This is the scenario that makes sense of the choice of the Ipatiev house.  That venue would not have been chosen had their deaths been determined from the moment of their falling into the hands of the Ural Soviet or if their last captors were seeking to impose a deliberately cruel imprisonment.

Your comment "if there was any danger of falling into White hands" is interesting.  There had been that danger for quite some time before the execution.  The Whites were known to be advancing with little to stop them.  The boom of artillery could be heard in the Ipatiev house for at least a couple of days before the executions.

It seems to me that, rather than seizing the advance of the Whites as a reason for carrying out a deed they were chomping at the bit to do, the Ural Soviet was actually delaying taking that step as long as possible.  The primary reason for the haste that resulted in such a botched job of disposing of the bodies was the fear that the Whites would come upon the job.  They cut it that close.  Why?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 13, 2005, 12:16:24 PM
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Your comment "if there was any danger of falling into White hands" is interesting.  There had been that danger for quite some time before the execution.  The Whites were known to be advancing with little to stop them.  The boom of artillery could be heard in the Ipatiev house for at least a couple of days before the executions.

It seems to me that, rather than seizing the advance of the Whites as a reason for carrying out a deed they were chomping at the bit to do, the Ural Soviet was actually delaying taking that step as long as possible.  The primary reason for the haste that resulted in such a botched job of disposing of the bodies was the fear that the Whites would come upon the job.  They cut it that close.  Why?


Interesting question. But it wasn't until June 29 that the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet and the Cheka decided to execute the IF "no later than July 15," since they believed Ekaterinburg could not hold out much longer than that. So the Ural Bolsheviks gave themselves 16 days during which to plan the murders. I think there were several very important reasons behind all these "delays:"

1) Before June 29, the Ural Regional Soviet had to convince Moscow that there was an immediate danger of the IF escaping revolutionary justice. Hence the "Russian Officer" plot in June. I believe it was only after they had informed Moscow of this rescue plot that Moscow gave their approval for the executions. I think the combination of the rescue plot and the advancing White army left them little choice, as they saw it. It's interesting that not even the slightest bit of information has ever surfaced about any evacuation plan being worked out for the female members of the IF. Obviously Moscow had all but washed its hands of the IF's fate by the end of June 1918.

2) Once they had decided to "liquidate" the Romanovs, the Ural Regional Soviet had to replace Avdeev immediately and find a reliable squad of executioners. The new commandant of the House of Special Purpose, Yurovsky, didn't take over from Avdeev until July 4. He also brought with him a new interior guard. But the "Letts" who would serve as the execution squad did not arrive at the Ipatiev House until July 8.

3) Yurovsky then had exactly a week to plan the executions themselves. Various ideas were discussed and dismissed before he arrived at a decision as to the best method for killing the family. Ermakov was also drawn into the conspiracy. He was supposed to arrange for the disposal of the IF's bodies. As it turned out, of course, he made few if any provisions for this, and Yurovsky ended up doing all the work, including ordering the necessary supplies and scouting out a second burial site (which in any event wasn't used).

But Yurovsky never anticipated such difficulties in carrying out the death sentences. He clearly expected everything to go according to plan, without any hitches - otherwise he would have had some kind of contingency plan in place. His lack of adequate preparation wasn't a function of time but of his own inexperience.

At any rate, most of the important Bolsheviks, including Yurovsky, had left Ekaterinburg by July 20-21. The Whites didn't encircle Ekaterinburg until July 24 and were only able to enter the city on July 25. So in the end the Ural Bolsheviks had just enough time to carry out the murders and dispose of the bodies.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 12:26:26 PM
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But it wasn't until June 29 that the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet and the Cheka decided to execute the IF "no later than July 15," since they believed Ekaterinburg could not hold out much longer than that.


I agree with your analysis, Elisabeth.  Of course, I am reading it to mean that, from the viewpoint of the Ural Soviet, they saw the situation as a choice between losing the imperial family to the Whites or executing them.  (However, as this squares with my earlier argument that the execution arose from more complex motives than hatred and cruelty, I'm not sure that's the reading you intend.)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 13, 2005, 12:39:58 PM
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I agree with your analysis, Elisabeth.  Of course, I am reading it to mean that, from the viewpoint of the Ural Soviet, they saw the situation as a choice between losing the imperial family to the Whites or executing them.  (However, as this squares with my earlier argument that the execution arose from more complex motives than hatred and cruelty, I'm not sure that's the reading you intend.)


Well, slight correction: in my opinion, the Ural Regional Soviet always wanted to have the "honor" of executing Nicholas II, and did everything in their power to make that possible (with or without the White advance, they wanted it to happen!).  I am not so sure about their desire to execute the rest of the imperial family. But I think Moscow, overall, was the restraining force here, at least until June 1918, when the exposure of the "Russian Officer's" plot and the sudden White advance changed everything.

I think the desire to execute Nicholas II (and ultimately, the rest of the IF) arose, as you say, from very complex motives. These included not merely hatred of the old dynasty but also and perhaps more importantly a complex mixture of ideological fanaticism, realpolitik, and professional ambition. And judging from Yurovsky's memoirs, the latter consideration played no small part in what transpired at the Ipatiev House in the early morning hours of July 17, 1918.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 13, 2005, 04:15:29 PM
Bluetoria explained why we ask for the prayers of the Saints very well. Thank you! I am not sure why Protestants threw away this tradition which dates back to the beginnings of the Church as can be seen in some of the earliest Christian writings. Our altars also contain relics of the Saints, which dates back to catacomb times when the Christians would collect what remained of the Martyrs and celebrated the Liturgy on the altar made above their relics - the Martyrs thus were continuing to take part in the Liturgy. The dead have always been seen as a living part of the Church.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 05:06:20 PM
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I am not sure why Protestants threw away this tradition which dates back to the beginnings of the Church as can be seen in some of the earliest Christian writings.


The Reformation (which Martin Luther originally sought to engender within the Catholic Church) took aim at practices that had become mired in corruption.  Among those was the cult of sainthood, which was riddled with obviously fraudulent claims.

For instance, if all the fragments of the "true cross" were assembled, the result would have been untenably large.  If all the bones of certain saints were assembled, the skeletons would have had quite a few extra body parts.  A major source of revenue for the Church and for various holy orders was pilgrimage to view the relics of saints, and the demand far exceeded the supply of the real thing . . . so people got quite entrepreneurial in fulfilling the demand.

Luther viewed the cult of sainthood and the typical "suggestion" that a donation improved your changes of getting the saint's attention as an exploitation of unsophisticated believers, much as he viewed the selling of indulgences to be.

That was the practical side of it.  On the theological side, Luther proposed that any individual could access God directly through prayer, good works, and the acceptance of Christ's divinity.  God did not need gatekeepers such as the priesthood, saints, the Virgin, or even the Catholic Church.

But as they say in television . . . "the views expressed in this announcement do not necessarily reflect the views of this station."
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 05:39:14 PM
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Well, slight correction: in my opinion, the Ural Regional Soviet always wanted to have the "honor" of executing Nicholas II, and did everything in their power to make that possible (with or without the White advance, they wanted it to happen!).  I am not so sure about their desire to execute the rest of the imperial family. But I think Moscow, overall, was the restraining force here, at least until June 1918, when the exposure of the "Russian Officer's" plot and the sudden White advance changed everything.

I think the desire to execute Nicholas II (and ultimately, the rest of the IF) arose, as you say, from very complex motives. These included not merely hatred of the old dynasty but also and perhaps more importantly a complex mixture of ideological fanaticism, realpolitik, and professional ambition. And judging from Yurovsky's memoirs, the latter consideration played no small part in what transpired at the Ipatiev House in the early morning hours of July 17, 1918.


For me, the overriding point is that no matter how you cut it, slice it and dice it, dress it up in revolutionary sloganeering, no matter how nice the house was, how often the laundry was done, what you come down to is a bunch of innocent and defenseless people, who were, at the time among the most famous and recognized people in the world, already far removed from power, being gunned down with a few loyal servants by a bunch of thugs who represented the dawn of a new world order.  

That's why I don't think it's such a bad idea that they were made saints.  If, by making them saints, the sorry legacy of soviet totalitarianism will be remembered for what it really was, then that's a good thing.  

That's another reason why I support the restoration of the Alexander Palace as it was when they lived in it.  If the palace is restored (and I personally think the Russian government will move to restore it) how can anybody visit it without the long shadow of Ekaterinburg looming over everything?  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 13, 2005, 05:42:34 PM
I can see that the Traditions and practices of the Orthodox Church are and were very different from the mediaeval western church.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on June 13, 2005, 05:42:40 PM
Oh yes, Tsarfan the corruption & deceit was appalling. Some of the so-called relics were indeed exceeding bizarre & there was also a case where to rival groups of monks brawled in the street over the bones of one particular saint. The sale of indulgences was probably even worse - Pardoners went around with a collection tin, "Drop a penny in the tin, heaven opens the soul flies in!!"
However, it seems to me that maybe Luther sadly 'threw out the baby with the bath water.'
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 06:19:47 PM
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That's another reason why I support the restoration of the Alexander Palace as it was when they lived in it.  If the palace is restored (and I personally think the Russian government will move to restore it) how can anybody visit it without the long shadow of Ekaterinburg looming over everything?  


I, too, support the restoration of the Alexander Palace.  However, I don't know how much that would do to extirpate the shadow of Ekaterinburg.  The private apartments of the royal family have been wonderfully restored at Versailles, and it hasn't done much to induce people to look back past the Terror to assess more accurately the reign of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette . . . which failed largely because the government could not figure out how to raise sufficient taxes from a very wealthy country.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 07:33:02 PM
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I, too, support the restoration of the Alexander Palace.  However, I don't know how much that would do to extirpate the shadow of Ekaterinburg.  The private apartments of the royal family have been wonderfully restored at Versailles, and it hasn't done much to induce people to look back past the Terror to assess more accurately the reign of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette . . . which failed largely because the government could not figure out how to raise sufficient taxes from a very wealthy country.


I think you misunderstood me.  I wouldn't want it to extirpate the shadow of Ekaterinburg.  I would expect the museum to include exhibitions on their imprisonment and execution and its meaning in the context of the legacy of Soviet Russia.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 07:53:29 PM
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I think you misunderstood me.  I wouldn't want it to extirpate the shadow of Ekaterinburg.  I would expect the museum to include exhibitions on their imprisonment and execution and its meaning in the context of the legacy of Soviet Russia.


As long as it also includes exhibitions on his reign and the policies that helped bring on the legacy of Soviet Russia . . . that assumes, of course, it's to be a museum and not a shrine.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 07:54:44 PM
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I, too, support the restoration of the Alexander Palace.  However, I don't know how much that would do to extirpate the shadow of Ekaterinburg.  The private apartments of the royal family have been wonderfully restored at Versailles, and it hasn't done much to induce people to look back past the Terror to assess more accurately the reign of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette . . . which failed largely because the government could not figure out how to raise sufficient taxes from a very wealthy country.


I do not recall seeing much in the way of personal items at Versailles.  But perhaps I missed that part; also it was packed with tourists (like me).  I did, however, read A Tale of Two Cities on the grass by the little hammeau!

You really love to compare N & A to L XVI and MA!  But as I've said before I just don't think these comparisons are very useful.  The Russian revolution is viewed at best as a mixed blessing and at worst as a disaster for Russia and the world.  The French Revolution is still celebrated both in France and around the world as a victory for freedom over tyranny.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 08:08:17 PM
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As long as it also includes exhibitions on his reign and the policies that helped bring on the legacy of Soviet Russia . . . that assumes, of course, it's to be a museum and not a shrine.


Well, I'm not in charge of what it will be like, so I don't know.  I suppose some people might think of it as a shrine, since they were made saints.  Others may see it as a museum.  I think having exhibitions on his reign and policies is a good idea, but they won't mean much once one sees Alexis' crib and other personal items in a recreated Alexander Palace.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 08:14:39 PM
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I do not recall seeing much in the way of personal items at Versailles.


There are almost no personal items left.  However, the bedroom of Marie Antoinette has been restored with exact copies of the textiles she knew.  And in recent decades the private apartments of the Princesses Royal on the ground floor have been restored.  There have been serious attempts to return the decor as much as possible to that the occupants of the palace once knew.

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You really love to compare N & A to L XVI and MA!  But as I've said before I just don't think these comparisons are very useful.  The Russian revolution is viewed at bestas a mixed blessing and at worst as a disaster for Russia and the world.  The French Revolution is still celebrated both in France and around the world as a victory for freedom over tyranny.


I admit the comparisons are not exact.  But as Elisabeth said, Alexandra felt an affinity to Marie Antoinette, evidenced both in items she collected during her reign and maybe even in her seizing upon the French word for abdication when she got the news that Nicholas had abdicated.  Elisabeth also raised an interesting speculation that the Bourbon's foiled attempt at escape and their arrest at Varennes might have discouraged Nicholas and Alexandra from a similar attempt.

I disagree that the French Revolution left a great legacy.  The Revolution lasted at least 10 years and went through many phases.  Most historians think that it went so off track during the Jacobin and Terror phases that the liberalism of the Enlightenment was discredited to the point that Europe lost almost a century of political progress.  Remember, the immediate upshot of the French revolution was Napoleon and an era of French foreign aggression, followed by a restoration of the Bourbons.

In fact, it was the more successful adaptation of Enlightenment principles by the new United States government that many think cemented the reputation of government by the governed as a workable premise.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 08:22:21 PM
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I think having exhibitions on his reign and policies is a good idea, but they won't mean much once one sees Alexis' crib and other personal items in a recreated Alexander Palace.


As you may have guessed, I'm not much of a sentimentalist.

I think the Alexander Palace is right up there with Pavlovsk as one of the gems of neo-classical architecture, and I would much rather it be restored as the masterpiece it once was.  Frankly, I think Alexandra made a mess of the place.

How about putting the museum in the restored church Nicholas and Alexandra built in the park for their private worship?  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 13, 2005, 08:43:33 PM
A Church should not be used as a museum. If it is being restored, and to be used as a place of worship, then while it may have historical icons etc in it, it should not be thought of as a museum. I know that under the Soviets, Churches were used for all kinds of things. However, Orthodox Churches are places for worshipping in, not museums, concert halls or anything else.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2005, 09:04:31 PM
I agree that a church currently being used for worship is not suitable as a museum.  But I don't think that church has been used thus since 1917.

I obviously don't know much about Orthodoxy, but I have always viewed churches as simply buildings in which congregrations -- the real spiritual entities -- were housed.  In fact, at least in the West, churches are quite often "decommissioned" by the dioceses and sold off to other uses with no blasphemous intent.

Were Orthodox churches never similarly handled prior to the revolution?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on June 13, 2005, 09:41:29 PM
No.  :)
That's because a Church isn't viewed as just a building.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 13, 2005, 10:35:16 PM
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I disagree that the French Revolution left a great legacy.  The Revolution lasted at least 10 years and went through many phases.  Most historians think that it went so off track during the Jacobin and Terror phases that the liberalism of the Enlightenment was discredited to the point that Europe lost almost a century of political progress.  Remember, the immediate upshot of the French revolution was Napoleon and an era of French foreign aggression, followed by a restoration of the Bourbons.




No.  Every year France celebrates Bastille Day, which marked the beginning of the French Revolution.  It is a national holiday in France.  You may disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that the French Revolution is seen as having been a good thing by millions of people today.  There are celebrations in the United States commemorating Bastille Day every year, as well.  Thousands of people run through downtown Chicago every year on (or around) Bastille Day in a 5K race that benefits various charities.  How many events are there around the world celebrating the October Revolution? Next to NONE.  

In fact, in December 2004 the Russian government scrapped November 7th as a national holiday!  They replaced it with November 4th, which commemorates the liberation of Moscow from Polish troops in 1612.  So, even if you think the Russian revolution was a good thing, it doesn't matter because it's how things are seen, not how they are.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 14, 2005, 06:24:16 AM
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No.  Every year France celebrates Bastille Day, which marked the beginning of the French Revolution.  It is a national holiday in France.  You may disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that the French Revolution is seen as having been a good thing by millions of people today.


No.  The French Revolution was more than Bastille Day -- much more.  It was the Jacobin clubs, it was the Terror, it was an early attempt at a totalitarian state with a secret police and a "Committee of Public Safety".

What the French celebrate is the overturning of the ancien regime at the start of the Revolution.  I have never encountered a celebration of the horrors that came after the Oath of the Tennis Court . . . and that is what the French Revolution turned into (much as the March 1917 revolution turned into the October revoltuion).

By the way . . . how can you feel the way you do about the Bolshevik's massacre of the Romanovs but view the French Revolution -- which resulted in the beheading of the Bourbon monarchs and the probable murder of their young son -- as a a good thing celebrated by millions of people today?  Why such a double standard?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 14, 2005, 07:06:27 AM
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No.  The French Revolution was more than Bastille Day -- much more.  It was the Jacobin clubs, it was the Terror, it was an early attempt at a totalitarian state with a secret police and a "Committee of Public Safety".

What the French celebrate is the overturning of the ancien regime at the start of the Revolution.  I have never encountered a celebration of the horrors that came after the Oath of the Tennis Court . . . and that is what the French Revolution turned into (much as the March 1917 revolution turned into the October revoltuion).


But the French themselves, unlike the Russians, have managed to separate the beginning of their revolution from the Terror that followed, and this despite the fact that the storming of the Bastille itself was an inglorious massacre since the fortress was only defended by a handful of soldiers and there were only about half a dozen political prisoners left to be freed anyway... The entire French Revolution is surrounded by a gigantic haze of national mythology. I think this is no better illustrated than by the practice of erecting stands on the Place de la Concorde every July 14. Here the president and other dignitaries sit to watch the Bastille Day parade. In reality, of course, they are sitting directly over the spot where the guillotine once stood and performed its bloody work in the name of the revolution. Not only that, but during the bicentennial celebrations in 1989, French women dressed up as fishwives and sold souvenirs out of mock-tumbrils!  


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 14, 2005, 07:15:36 AM
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I agree that a church currently being used for worship is not suitable as a museum.  But I don't think that church has been used thus since 1917.


The National Geographic special on the last tsar shows a service being conducted in the Feodorovsky church at some point in the 1990s. My impression is that this church is in use again, even if still badly in need of restoration.

I agree with Georgiy, there is something disturbing about seeing a church or especially a cathedral used for some purpose other than that for which it was built. I remember how shocked I was during my first visit to Russia in 1991 to see that one of the ancient cathedrals on Kremlin Square had been requisitioned for the gallery showing of some obscure modern Italian artist! It was almost as if the Cathedral of Notre Dame were being used for an art exhibit. It made me shudder. At the very least it showed the Soviet authorities' total lack of respect for their own cultural heritage.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 14, 2005, 10:03:00 AM
Quote
But the French themselves, unlike the Russians, have managed to separate the beginning of their revolution from the Terror that followed, and this despite the fact that the storming of the Bastille itself was an inglorious massacre since the fortress was only defended by a handful of soldiers and there were only about half a dozen political prisoners left to be freed anyway... The entire French Revolution is surrounded by a gigantic haze of national mythology.


Just my point.  The French do not celebrate their Revolution for what it was, but for what they have mythologized it to be.

And isn't that exactly what the communist regime in Russia did?

One reason I often compare the French and the Russian revolutions is that, in my view, they share in proving a key point -- any government whose ideology allows for the massacre of innocents in the name of politicial necessity is inherently incapable of governing a nation for the benefit of all its citizens.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 14, 2005, 11:09:26 AM
Quote

No.  The French Revolution was more than Bastille Day -- much more.  It was the Jacobin clubs, it was the Terror, it was an early attempt at a totalitarian state with a secret police and a "Committee of Public Safety".


Who cares?  That's completely beside the point.  You need to re-read my posts.  It's how things are seen that matters, not how they really were.  

Quote
What the French celebrate is the overturning of the ancien regime at the start of the Revolution.  I have never encountered a celebration of the horrors that came after the Oath of the Tennis Court . . . and that is what the French Revolution turned into (much as the March 1917 revolution turned into the October revoltuion).


Uh, I don't think so.  I've been in Paris twice during Bastille day and there are reenactments of some of the things that happened during the terror, people running around shouting "Off with their heads" and stuff like that.  There's also a huge military parade just like the ones there used to be in Red Square.  

Quote
By the way . . . how can you feel the way you do about the Bolshevik's massacre of the Romanovs but view the French Revolution -- which resulted in the beheading of the Bourbon monarchs and the probable murder of their young son -- as a a good thing celebrated by millions of people today?  Why such a double standard?


I have *not* said that I view the French revolution as a good or a bad thing.  I have merely stated how the two events (the French and the Russian revolutions) are seen in the world.

There's a BIG difference between saying "...this is how such-and-such a matter is viewed in the world" and "...this is how I view such-and-such a matter".



Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 14, 2005, 11:35:15 AM
Okay, by now everybody has probably noticed that we are way off topic. So I have started a new thread, "The French and Russian Revolutions," on the Imperial History board. Please, RichC and Tsarfan, repost there your most representative posts on this subject - I would do it myself, only I don't know how! This is a fascinating subject and I at least want to hear more. ;)

P.S. I should have started this thread on the Russian Revolution board but somehow managed to forget all about it. I have asked the FA to move it when he gets the chance. However, in the meantime it is still under "Imperial History."
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 14, 2005, 11:37:17 AM
Quote
Uh, I don't think so.  I've been in Paris twice during Bastille day and there are reenactments of some of the things that happened during the terror, people running around shouting "Off with their heads" and stuff like that.  There's also a huge military parade just like the ones there used to be in Red Square.


Well, I've never been able to figure out the French.  I mean, this is the nation that attempted to stage a water ballet re-enacting the holocaust at an international sporting event a few years ago.

I disagree with your point that all that matters is how things are seen.  In fact, isn't the whole study of history about trying to ferret out the truth of events and causes?

And here's the truth of both the French and the Russian revolutions.  They both started as attempts to remove regimes that had become ineffective.  They were both co-opted by radical ideologues who turned the original agenda to their own purposes and imposed totalitarian regimes.  They both spawned aggrandizing foreign policies within a decade of their outbreaks.  And they both caused each of their nations to lose almost a century of movement toward stable representative institutions.

I think the real reason that people bemoan the fate of the Romanovs more than that of the Bourbons is that the Bolshevik extremists were more effective in holding onto power than their French counterparts.  If the Bolsheviks had been unseated and the Romanovs returned to power, I doubt if we'd fret much more about Nicholas and Alexandra than we do about Louis and Marie Antoinette.  For the life of me, I cannot see what was otherwise so different about their fates and about the people who meted them out.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 14, 2005, 11:50:24 AM
Please, we're way off topic! But this is a topic so fascinating it is worthy of a thread of its own. So I have started one under "Imperial History" - please please please everyone, repost your comments about the French and Russian revolutions there and let's keep this discussion going!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 14, 2005, 11:58:45 AM
Quote

Just my point.  The French do not celebrate their Revolution for what it was, but for what they have mythologized it to be.


Isn't this the same thing as saying it's how things are seen rather than how they really are that matters?

Quote
And isn't that exactly what the communist regime in Russia did?


Yes, but there's a new order in Russia which has repudiated the revolution, or is at least in the process of doing so.  Not the case in France.  I thought we were talking about what's happening now, not what happened in Soviet times.  We are talking about the question of sainthood of the IF and what it means in Russia today.

I posted an item in the news links section about the recent unvailing of a new statue of Alexander II in Moscow.  The unvailing was hosted by the Mayor of Moscow, Yuriy Luzhkov, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Aleksiy II and Russian Minister of Culture and Mass Communications Aleksandr Sokolov.  The inscription reads,

Emperor Aleksandr II abolished serfdom in Russia in 1861 and liberated millions of peasants from centuries-long slavery, undertook military and legal reforms, introduced a system of self government, town dumas and zemstvo [elective district council] rule, ended the perennial Caucasian war and freed the Slavonic people from the Islamic yoke. He died on 1 March 1881 as a result of a terrorist act.

This struck me as quite significant.  I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that we may see a similar statue to Nicholas II at some point.  

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 14, 2005, 12:23:08 PM
Quote

I think the real reason that people bemoan the fate of the Romanovs more than that of the Bourbons is that the Bolshevik extremists were more effective in holding onto power than their French counterparts.  If the Bolsheviks had been unseated and the Romanovs returned to power, I doubt if we'd fret much more about Nicholas and Alexandra than we do about Louis and Marie Antoinette.  For the life of me, I cannot see what was otherwise so different about their fates and about the people who meted them out.


I think you are absolutely right, Tsarfan!  Finally!!   ;D

This means that what happened to the Romanovs at the hands of the Bolsheviks symbolized what happened to so many other individuals who have been long forgotten.  Again, that's why I don't think making them saints was such a bad thing.  They're stand-ins for all the other innocent people who died in the name of the revolution.  

Everyone agrees (I hope!) that they would never have been made saints if they had gone off and died somewhere in England.  So, it follows that their sainthood has little to do with the lives they led as Tsar and Empress of Russia or Grand Duke/Grand Duchess of Russia.  They are being mythologized.  Elisabeth spoke of the lack of a national myth in today's Russia.  Well, they're working on it, aren't they?  The government is already running around erecting statues of the Tsars.  Nicholas, Alexandra and their five children are going to be a big part of that national myth.  


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisabeth on June 14, 2005, 01:16:49 PM
Quote
This means that what happened to the Romanovs at the hands of the Bolsheviks symbolized what happened to so many other individuals who have been long forgotten.  Again, that's why I don't think making them saints was such a bad thing.  They're stand-ins for all the other innocent people who died in the name of the revolution.  

Everyone agrees (I hope!) that they would never have been made saints if they had gone off and died somewhere in England.  So, it follows that their sainthood has little to do with the lives they led as Tsar and Empress of Russia or Grand Duke/Grand Duchess of Russia.  They are being mythologized.  Elisabeth spoke of the lack of a national myth in today's Russia.  Well, they're working on it, aren't they?  The government is already running around erecting statues of the Tsars.  Nicholas, Alexandra and their five children are going to be a big part of that national myth.


Exactly, RichC. This is why it's mistaken to dismiss Radzinsky's book The Last Tsar as merely a bad, heavily romanticized biography - it was actually the first formal attempt to create a new national Russian myth that would incorporate the imperial family as national saints and symbols of the suffering of the Russian people under communist rule. As such the book echoes deeply kenotic (Christ on the Cross) strains in both Russian hagiography and historiography - for example, the historian Karamzin's presentation of Michael Romanov as a meek lamb to the slaughter finds its counterpart in Radzinsky's portrayal of Nicholas II as a willing, self-sacrificial victim of the Bolsheviks.
 
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RichC on June 14, 2005, 02:10:55 PM
Quote

Exactly, RichC. This is why it's mistaken to dismiss Radzinsky's book The Last Tsar as merely a bad, heavily romanticized biography - it was actually the first formal attempt to create a new national Russian myth that would incorporate the imperial family as national saints and symbols of the suffering of the Russian people under communist rule. As such the book echoes deeply kenotic (Christ on the Cross) strains in both Russian hagiography and historiography - for example, the historian Karamzin's presentation of Michael Romanov as a meek lamb to the slaughter finds its counterpart in Radzinsky's portrayal of Nicholas II as a willing, self-sacrificial victim of the Bolsheviks.
  



Yes.  National saints is an excellent way of putting it.  I confess I hadn't consciously thought of it that way until I saw it in your post.  The IF (and many others from the Tsarist period) are replacing Lenin, Marx and Stalin as Russia's national saints!  Wow!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tsarfan on June 14, 2005, 02:18:09 PM
Well, I wish someone would consider a sainthood for Stolypin.  He got murdered for trying to serve his country . . . and was actually effective in trying to resolve some of Russia's problems (as long as Alexandra stayed out of his hair).

And with that . . . I'm off to the new thread.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 11, 2005, 12:36:32 AM
wow its now only 6 days until the Romanov's memorial, Its been already almost 87 years since their death!

What is everyone planning to do on July 16-17 to remember the Romanovs?

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on July 12, 2005, 04:07:11 PM
Well, as I am Orthodox, and the anniversary of their Martyrdom is on a Sunday, there is a Divine Liturgy at which they shall be commemorated - so I will be at Church!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on July 12, 2005, 05:28:47 PM
Well, I'll be at a Harry Potter party on the 16th. lol. But I'll do something, perhaps light a candle for them.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on July 12, 2005, 05:32:33 PM
The anniversary is on the 17th. If any of you are near Russian Orthodox Churches, and you wanted to go and light candles, it's an excellent opportunity as I would imagine most Russian Churches would sing the troparia to the Royal martyrs at the Liturgy - also the vigil on the evening of Saturday 16th would be good.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Marialana on July 12, 2005, 06:37:01 PM
I will definitely be lighting a candle and saying a prayer for the family. Every year I try and go somewhere tranquil with lots of flowers (for Alexandra) and take some time to reflect on their lives and what they've meant to my  life ever since I discovered them so many years ago.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Holly on July 12, 2005, 07:54:40 PM
Quote
Well, I'll be at a Harry Potter party on the 16th. lol. But I'll do something, perhaps light a candle for them.

I'll be at one as well!  ;D Harry Potter is awesome!
I'm not sure about what I will do. But I will probably get a picture of them and light a candle and keep it lit until around three or four in the morning. One whole wall of my room is covered with pictures of them, so I might just get a table and put seven candles on it and keep them lit all night and pray by them. :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on July 12, 2005, 08:18:44 PM
Hi  im new    Ill   watch my Romanov movies  and maybe take a walk outside  and reflect  on their  lives  and pray :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 13, 2005, 01:41:00 AM
I think that I will maybe go out and find an Orthadox church and light some candles there and pray, and I will try to stay up from the night of the 16th and the early morning of the 17th and light candles and reflect on their lives....I wish there was a place here with flowers and nature (I live in California now, and I havent really seen a place like that here, but in Canada where I use to live there was tuns of that kind of stuff *sight* if only I moved after the 17th, lol)

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: otmafan on July 13, 2005, 10:35:03 PM
Usually what I do on that day is live to the fullest. The Romanovs always enjoyed life to the very fullest no matter the situation. I make sure I don't waste any time on that day. I also just like to reflect on their lives.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 13, 2005, 11:02:02 PM
They did ? Alexandra was no barrell of laughs, Nicholas was a bit busy with running the country- sort of. Alexei did his best I suppose. This left the girls  to amuse themselves between tending to their mother and brother.
The memorial is to their "Passion Bearing" deaths, not their gay life of abandon.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: GD Alexandra on July 14, 2005, 01:49:43 AM
Quote
I will definitely be lighting a candle and saying a prayer for the family.


I think I'll do the same.I had prayed before for them on that day, but never light a candle, I'll do that, too. ( In spite of the fact my mom is gonna think I'm crazy)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 16, 2005, 01:12:37 PM
Rest In Peace our dear family... you will be in our hearts for ever.

(http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/famliyhuddleup.gif)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 16, 2005, 01:14:52 PM
I second it. I also posted a prayer in the forum announcements but I'll post it here too. Olga wrote it.


Send us the patience, Father, to support us in this year of dark days and tempests, these persecutions of the people and these tortures of our executioners.
Give us the strength, O just God, to pardon the wickedness of our neighbors, and to carry the heavy bloody cross with your humility.
And in these riotious days, when our enemies strip us, help us, Saviour God, to suffer the shame and the insults.
Master of the world, bless us with your prayer and give the peace to our soul appeased at this terrible hour and unbearable.
And at the gates of the tomb, make us born again with the lips of your slaves the superhuman force of humble prayer for our enemies.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: BobAtchison on July 16, 2005, 01:27:17 PM
Amen...
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 16, 2005, 01:33:35 PM
Rest in peace my dear Romanovs,

you mean everything to me and I love you all with all my heart! Please pray for us and watch us from your new home,

Its been 87 long years and no one has forgotten you, we will always remember you as long as we live,

I will pray all night and reflect on you life from the Alexander Palace to the dredful Ekaterinesburg.....and I will light a candle for each of you and it will keep burning in my heart forever!:'(

Amen

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/AnutaCutaa/dearangels.jpg)


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 16, 2005, 01:37:26 PM
I often think and pray for you, and we are always remembering and speaking of you. It is hard that we cannot see each other, but God will surely help us, and we will meet again in better times.
-tatiana romanov

(so sorry this was the picture)
(http://www.glintofgold.org/romanovs/pics/1913-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on July 16, 2005, 01:48:42 PM
My dear friends-
This is the saddest day of the year for me. I hope you are resting peacefully, and look on us with your blessings. Out prayers are with you. Your memory will live in us forever.
Sincerely-
Dana
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Victoria_Romanov on July 16, 2005, 02:11:23 PM
Rest In Peace Romanovs  :'(
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/anastasia73092/aaaaaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on July 16, 2005, 02:14:23 PM
Our Dear  Sweet   Angels  
so  sorry  we cannot  all  be together  but   i i know   WE WILL   meet  in  Heaven   (Alexei  im Happy  you  arent  hurting anymore) :) ;) :( Your my personal  Hero   (im shedding tears as i write this for you  )

"Remember  that  it is not evil wich  cocours  evil   only love"  Amen
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Daniel Briere on July 16, 2005, 03:25:45 PM
Vechnaya pamyat'...(Eternal memory)

From an old Russian calendar cover:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/Sanstitre-Numrisation-04.jpg)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on July 16, 2005, 03:26:19 PM
I  held a moment of silence in my bedroom :)   when   I  Thought about what day it was   .......I Wept   a bit :-[  Its just all  so very sad  :(   But at least they are all in Heaven  now   together  Happy  and Safe
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Speedycat on July 16, 2005, 03:32:50 PM
Daniel, That is calender picture is wonderful!  Thanks so much for sharing it. What a beautiful tribute to this loving family.

Baby Tsarevitch and grandduchess_42, your photo is the one I saw in my school history book in 1974 that inspired my love of the Romanovs.  Thank you for posting this classic image.  grandduchess_42, marvelous coloration!!  It is as if they are still alive and with us today.



Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Holly on July 16, 2005, 05:40:34 PM
I know you are up in heaven looking down on us. Rest in eternal happiness and peace. I know one day we will meet.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 16, 2005, 09:04:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/romanovs.jpg)

RIP, our dear Romanovs, your still alive in our hearts!

July 16-17th, 1918 - July 16-17th 2005


87 years.....Remember the Romanovs and the four loyal friends who also vanish that night.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 16, 2005, 10:03:29 PM
What a great banner! Can I make it my desktop please?  :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 16, 2005, 10:23:13 PM
Sure! :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Galactic_Misfit on July 16, 2005, 11:30:04 PM
May you rest in peace our dear angels. You will NEVER be forgotten. May you live forever in our hearts.
RIP dear Romanovs.

Amen
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: GD Alexandra on July 16, 2005, 11:36:16 PM
I'll always remember you and keep you in my prayings. Rest in Peace
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 17, 2005, 01:22:58 AM
Mandie how did you make that poster? Its gorgious, can you please send me the picture that's of Alexei in the very top left hand corner, I don't think I have that one yet!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on July 17, 2005, 01:24:35 AM
That is a beautiful banner, Mandie!!! I haven't seen some of those pictures, there are a few especially good ones of Maria, in my oppinion.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: DeAnochka on July 17, 2005, 01:29:38 AM
My thoughts go out to the Imperial Family on this day. . .

In all honesty, I haven't really thought about the Romanovs in a long time. Over the past few months I have had so many things going on that this subject simply wasn't in my conscience. That is why, for those of you who might have noticed, I haven't posted in a while. This one is most unique to me, though, because I am not gushing about how much I love and pray for the Imperial Family. I can't believe that I ever took them for granted.

My thoughts go out to the Imperial Family on this day. . . as I remember how much they have changed my life.


Your DeAnochka


And as, in sparkling majesty, a star
Gilds the bright summit of some gloomy cloud;
Brightening the half veil’d face of heaven afar:
So, when dark thoughts my boding spirit shroud,
Sweet Hope, celestial influence round me shed,
Waving thy silver pinions o’er my head.


- John Keats, To Hope
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 17, 2005, 02:46:51 AM
Here is something I made for the Family

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/AnutaCutaa/romanov5copy.jpg)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Marialana on July 17, 2005, 07:45:51 AM
Rest in Peace, Romanovs. You are always in my heart, and part of what makes me who I am. You will NEVER be forgotten.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: hikaru on July 17, 2005, 09:41:27 AM
Tdy I have passed by bus with my dear Japanese tourists near the Cathedral of the Christ  the Saviour where  the BIg
service  for Nicholas II  began. A lot of people gathered together and waited near the entrance with Big Icons  of NIcholas II  and Flags .
( it  seems that it took time to passe the body save control).
Tdy our weather is extremely good. Sun, blue sky and
real summer's temperature - over 30C.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 17, 2005, 10:39:52 AM
thank you for all those wonderful posts. we all miss them.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 17, 2005, 11:19:49 AM
What did everyone do for the memorial yesterday?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: jackie3 on July 17, 2005, 11:29:23 AM
Amen to what everybody has already.

To all the martyrs of today's tragedy, may you find the peace in life that eluded you in life.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Dasha on July 17, 2005, 05:20:30 PM
In Loving Memory of:
Nikolai II Aleksandrovich, Tsar-Emperor of All Russia
Aleksandra Feodorovna, Empress of All Russia
Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna
Grand Duchess Tataiana Nikolaevna
Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna
Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Tsarevich Aleksey Nikolaevich

And all other members of the Romanov Family, along with servants and retainers killed on this day

May You rest in peace in the Kingdom of Heaven.

July 16/17, 1918+++++++
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Elisa - Ella on July 17, 2005, 05:38:34 PM
You will be in my heart for ever, and I and so many other people will never forget you!!
I love you all with all my heart!!!
We pray for you and  you pray for us...
because I know you are watching over us...my dear family!
You live in a better world, and there will come a time we will met eachother there...
I love you all!!  :'(

rest in peace...
elisa
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 17, 2005, 07:35:45 PM
Quote
You will be in my heart for ever, and I and so many other people will never forget you!!
I love you all with all my heart!!!
We pray for you and  you pray for us...
because I know you are watching over us...my dear family!
You live in a better world, and there will come a time we will met eachother there...
I love you all!!  :'(

rest in peace...
elisa


Youll never be forgotten, dear Romanov family. We'll always remember your martyrdom.
I'll light another candle today (yesterday I lighted one and put rose oil in my votive lamp) to pray for:

-Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov
-Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova
-Olga Nicolaievna Romanova
-Tatiana Nicolaievna Romanova
-Maria Nicolaievna Romanova
-Anastasia Nicolaievna Romanova
-Alexei Nicolaievich Romanov.
-Trupp
-Kharitonov.
-Demidova.
-Doctor Botkin
-Jemmy

 And all the Alapaevsk martyrs...And all the Russian people martyred as well with them.

 Requiescat in Pax.
 RealAnastasia.
 
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: KentKim on July 18, 2005, 01:41:17 AM
"To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die."

--Thomas Campbell

RIP
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 18, 2005, 05:07:31 PM
thank you again! i think even the tsar would be pround!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: King_James on August 22, 2005, 04:31:03 PM
Do you all belive that the last imperial family are saints ?
I Am apselutly convinst that they are saints.

I Do think they help people in need if you pray for there help.And help us on our spirituale path.

GOD SAVE THE TSAR
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: sailor_of_standart on August 22, 2005, 08:22:40 PM
I personally don't think they were saints, it was just a sad, tragic and cruel ending to these beautiful people.   Their people had a different view of them.   Remember the children where shield against the real world to a point where they didn't see how many poor people lived.   Nicholas was jeered and finally forced to abdicate and Alex was German and seemed to hate being in the public.  Which gave the impression she was a cold woman.

It was just sad the way they lived for the last year and half of their lives as virtual prisoners.

Think about it would you consider the Queen Mother to be a saint.  Especially as she said she would stay in Buckingham Palace during the second world war.  Even after it was bombed.  She jokingly said now she had a great view of the east.  

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on August 22, 2005, 08:51:20 PM
no i think that they are maryters. (so sorry if i didn't spell that)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Lanie on August 22, 2005, 08:53:36 PM
They are saints in the Orthodox Church for how they died...not how they lived.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on August 22, 2005, 08:55:45 PM
Quote
They are saints in the Orthodox Church for how they died...not how they lived.


o never knew that... thanks lanie!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on August 22, 2005, 10:58:48 PM
Well, a Martyr is a Saint GD42! (More specifically they are Passionbearers.)
As an Orthodox Christian, for me the IF are indeed Saints, and we have a few icons of them at our house, and also of course at our Church.

Please don't take offence, but it seems strange to say 'God save the Tsar' when there is no Tsar now, and when the last Tsar has been glorified in Heaven. (that is he is saved.)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: King_James on August 23, 2005, 03:07:30 AM
I don`t think it is strange.
And i do not tanke offenc of it.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on August 23, 2005, 06:45:25 AM
Quote
Well, a Martyr is a Saint GD42! (More specifically they are Passionbearers.)
As an Orthodox Christian, for me the IF are indeed Saints, and we have a few icons of them at our house, and also of course at our Church.

Please don't take offence, but it seems strange to say 'God save the Tsar' when there is no Tsar now, and when the last Tsar has been glorified in Heaven. (that is he is saved.)


o really? thanks! :D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: darius on August 23, 2005, 08:41:38 AM
Sailor of Standart. I don´t think we can compare the late Queen Mother to the massacre of an innocent  young boy, his young sisters and their parents by godless bolsheviks
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: lostfan on September 10, 2005, 11:42:12 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/queenscover/martyrs2.jpg)

I found this picture doing a search for the Konstantinovichi princes, and it was labeled as an icon painting of all of the royal-martyrs. I'd seen this photo cropped featuring NAOTMAA, but I'd never seen the whole version! Does anyone have a large version? I'd hoped to be able to look at a bigger version of this picture to see if I could identify any familiar faces.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: bluetoria on September 11, 2005, 05:22:02 AM
Sorry not to have a bigger version ofthat one, but here is another version of all the New Martyrs from a Moscow church:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/bluetoria/new_martyrs.jpg)

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on September 11, 2005, 05:13:47 PM
Of course, it is not only the Royal Martyrs depicted, but all the new Martyrs of the Communist Athiest Yoke (well, a selection of them, since there were millions).
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 11, 2005, 06:25:47 PM
Could anyone have any larger pics of the Martyers so I could see them clearly?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on September 11, 2005, 06:55:10 PM
here are some.  :)

http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/128.jpg
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/stalxeit.jpg- alexei but looks nothing like him
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/127.jpg
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/129.jpg
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 11, 2005, 11:09:36 PM
 Thanks Grandduchess 42  :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on September 12, 2005, 07:01:27 AM
Quote
Thanks Grandduchess 42  :)


welcome  ;D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Linnea on September 27, 2005, 11:48:27 AM
Quote
here are some.  :)

http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/128.jpg
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/stalxeit.jpg- alexei but looks nothing like him
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/127.jpg
http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/icons/129.jpg

a similar one
(http://saints.oca.org/IconDirectory/LG/july/0704czarfamily02.jpg)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Katia on September 27, 2005, 12:34:10 PM
Hi Linnea, do you own that last icon yourself? Because I do, my brother bought it for me from Tallinn, Estonia... It's beautiful!

Katia
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 12:49:21 PM
I think that there are many different versions of this particular icon. Here is one of the variations I picked up in Russia last year:

(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/7299/icon8oz.jpg)

In some of these they actually look like themselves, in others they don't because these images are somewhat idealized...
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Katia on September 27, 2005, 01:19:27 PM
Yes Helen, these two icons really look like each other! Where in Russia exactly did you see that?
What I really like in "my" icon is that the family members look quite alot like themselves. There are so many "royal martyr" paintigs where they don't!
BTW did you see the royal martyrs painting in St Isaacs Cathedral in StPetersburg?

Katia
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Linnea on September 27, 2005, 01:23:27 PM
Quote
Hi Linnea, do you own that last icon yourself? Because I do, my brother bought it for me from Tallinn, Estonia... It's beautiful!

Katia

No, heehee... It must be quite expensive to buy something like that. How much did your brother pay?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 01:31:21 PM
Quote
Yes Helen, these two icons really look like each other! Where in Russia exactly did you see that?
BTW did you see the royal martyrs painting in St Isaacs Cathedral in StPetersburg?

Katia


When I was there last year, they were selling them all over the place, but I can't remember exactly where I got this one. It must have been in one of the cathedrals because I only bought from the churches and not from the street vendors. I believe it was from the Kazan Cathedral in St Petersburg, but I could be wrong...
I don't remember seeing royal martyr icons at St Isaac's, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. They do sell them at the Feodorovsky Cathedral gift shop, I just saw them there recently. They are mass produced it seems, I really hope they don't start making them into refrigerator magnets!  

I also have a couple more, which I will post in a few minutes...
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 01:32:12 PM
Quote
No, heehee... It must be quite expensive to buy something like that.


No, not really, as I mentioned, they are mass produced... as tacky as that sounds.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 01:38:31 PM
GD Elisabeth (left) and yet another variation of the group one (right):

(http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/1076/icons0017ox.jpg)(http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/1378/icons0041sw.jpg)


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Katia on September 27, 2005, 01:42:59 PM
Oh yes Linnea, it's not an original icon, only one of those mass produced "souvenir things"... I don't know how much it costed, not very much though.

Thanks for info Helen! How many times have you been in Russia?

Katia
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Katia on September 27, 2005, 01:47:59 PM
And of course, the painting I saw was in the Kazan Cathedral, not in St Isaacs (I must be quite sleepy...!). I visited both in June.

Katia
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 01:48:08 PM
Quote
Thanks for info Helen! How many times have you been in Russia?
 


Oh you're welcome. Three times.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Linnea on September 27, 2005, 02:07:19 PM
Quote
Oh yes Linnea, it's not an original icon, only one of those mass produced "souvenir things"... I don't know how much it costed, not very much though.

Thanks for info Helen! How many times have you been in Russia?

Katia

Oh, they look rather expensive to me! I would be an easy prey for street vendors like buying a icon for 20 euro which is only worth one! ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 27, 2005, 02:20:35 PM
Quote
Oh, they look rather expensive to me! I would be an easy prey for street vendors like buying a icon for 20 euro which is only worth one! ;)


That's why you should never buy the first thing you see for the asking price ;). Especially in Russia.  8)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchess_42 on September 27, 2005, 03:48:22 PM
those are all great!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 17, 2005, 08:31:57 PM
I would like to start a new thred! I have heard/read that Putin intends on restoring the monarchy as a constituitional one.Will this happen? How? When?Where? Why? etc.etc.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Svetabel on October 18, 2005, 02:46:30 AM
I think it's nonsense. Here in Russia I guess we have enough problems to solve besides restoring a monacrhy.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: imperial angel on October 18, 2005, 11:25:11 AM
I doubt the Romanovs will ever rule in Russia again, and I think it is correct to point out that Russia has many other things to deal with.I think it is better to debate topics of the past, not about things that may or may not happen. Fascinating topic though. :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tatia on October 18, 2005, 02:04:46 PM
If you are interested in reading more about the possible comeback of the Russian monarchy and the people claiming to be the rightful Heir to the Throne, be sure to check out the Imperial Succession and the Throne (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=succession) -section
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Linnea on October 18, 2005, 02:13:38 PM
Maybe Putin himself wants to be emperor? ;D Just kidding! ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Frederika on October 18, 2005, 02:27:18 PM
i agree Putin is the only Tsar Russia has now! :-/
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tatia on October 19, 2005, 08:57:41 AM
Quote
Maybe Putin himself wants to be emperor? ;D Just kidding! ;)

Maybe he really does. It wouldn't surprise me.
(But who would be his Heir, I believe he only has two daughters :P)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on October 19, 2005, 11:03:26 AM
no point making past mistakes, they would have to let women rule :P
selina                        xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Margarita Markovna on October 19, 2005, 12:48:32 PM
I don't see them doing that, for some reason. Bringing a monarchy in OR letting women rule.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 19, 2005, 03:40:57 PM
There no way to return to Romanovs to Throne of Russia (monarchy).  
There no legitimate nor rightful heirs to the throne, since Paul I, banded women from ever taking the throne (*puff*)…the so called heir - Grand Duke George is not a rightful heir, since he is a Prussian Prince, his great-grandparents were first cousins and his great-great-grandmother did not convert to Orthodoxy at the time for her marriage. So the Roamnov house of rightful heirs and etc  is dead.

Unless a new family rules, which will maybe never happen since some people in Russia can't make up their minds or can't agree with another; because the country is too large. (Very sorry to say, but it true).
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on October 19, 2005, 10:53:49 PM
It is an anachronism to believe this eventuality.

The present pretenders seek publicity when visiting but at their convenience choose to reside in the west.

Russia has no need for monarchs, it is still learning about the meaning of democracy.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: nene on October 20, 2005, 09:50:36 AM
Quote
There no way to return to Romanovs to Throne of Russia (monarchy).  
There no legitimate nor rightful heirs to the throne, since Paul I, banded women from ever taking the throne (*puff*)…the so called heir - Grand Duke George is not a rightful heir, since he is a Prussian Prince, his great-grandparents were first cousins and his great-great-grandmother did not convert to Orthodoxy at the time for her marriage. So the Roamnov house of rightful heirs and etc  is dead.


 Unless a new family rules, which will maybe never happen since some people in Russia can't make up their minds or can't agree with another; because the country is too large. (Very sorry to say, but it true).


You can say that again! Russia is like a world of its own.

Paul I was a narrowminded, chauvinist jerk! I think the only reason he banded women from ruling Russia was his own personal hatred towards his mother, Catherine the Great (My guess is he thinks she had something to do with his father's murder). Anyway, there's nothing wrong with women ruling; look at Great Britain, Queen Elizabeth II. If the Romanovs do return to the throne, hopefully that stupid rule could be revoked. Nobody really follows the rules anymore anyway.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: darius on October 20, 2005, 11:03:37 AM
Well Putin has restored the double headed eagle as the seal of state...
Surely that is somehow patented or copyrited to the House of Romanov...?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: ferngully on October 20, 2005, 11:46:05 AM
Quote
I don't see them doing that, for some reason. Bringing a monarchy in OR letting women rule.


it was a joke rikta ;D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 20, 2005, 11:56:52 AM
Russia will never return to monarchy, nor should it...
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 20, 2005, 11:58:48 AM
Quote
Maybe Putin himself wants to be emperor?

I am sure he wouldn't mind  ;). He is planning to  fenagle with the constitution so he can be elected again...  ::)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: imperial angel on October 20, 2005, 12:02:19 PM
This thread isn't so much about the Romanovs now, but I agree with everybody who says they will never return. What else will happen, I don't know.  ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: londo954 on October 20, 2005, 06:27:35 PM
The thought has apparently crossed a few people's minds in Russia. Here is an editorial from St. Petersburg Today.
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=15851
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 20, 2005, 06:33:41 PM
Quote
Well Putin has restored the double headed eagle as the seal of state...
Surely that is somehow patented or copyrited to the House of Romanov...?


It was Boris Yeltsin who restored the double-headed eagle as a state symbol. This symbol was already in use by the Rurikid dynasty many years before the Romanovs succeeded them. To be exact it was adopted by Tsar IVan III in 1497.

David
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 20, 2005, 06:38:36 PM
Quote
There no way to return to Romanovs to Throne of Russia (monarchy).  
There no legitimate nor rightful heirs to the throne, since Paul I, banded women from ever taking the throne (*puff*)…the so called heir - Grand Duke George is not a rightful heir, since he is a Prussian Prince, his great-grandparents were first cousins and his great-great-grandmother did not convert to Orthodoxy at the time for her marriage. So the Roamnov house of rightful heirs and etc  is dead.

 Unless a new family rules, which will maybe never happen since some people in Russia can't make up their minds or can't agree with another; because the country is too large. (Very sorry to say, but it true).


Dear Mandie,

You do not seem to understand the Fundamental Laws very well or know how Nicholas II handled each of the potential infractions about which you write.

May I suggest that you read further on this topic before making such broad statements.

David


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 20, 2005, 09:44:56 PM
hi all. Just a quick comment on the two headed eagle.Its got more to do with orthodoxy more than anything else.If you remember when Constantinople fell in 1453 there was no official successor to the Christian Empire and Tsar Ivan claimed it as his own as his mother was a princess of the Paleologue family if memory serves me correctly.The two heads represent the empire looking in two directions ie east and west(Rome and Constantinople) and during some Byzantine Emperors reigns they declared themselves equal to the Apostles by taking the title the thirteenth Apostle. Perhaps Ivan wanted to be more Holy than he was?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: russianlover76 on October 21, 2005, 11:28:32 AM
I hope that the Romanovs will have a good chance to rule Russia again.But to make sure history don't repeat it self
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tania+ on October 21, 2005, 02:00:01 PM
I don't know how it would be, but I would like to see a government run like Norway, or Spain. [Certainly, not a repeat of the horrors of the last communist rule!] I could see a Romanov onboard, rule with the above type of goverment interface.

Tatiana


Quote
I hope that the Romanovs will have a good chance to rule Russia again.But to make sure history don't repeat it self

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 21, 2005, 03:12:22 PM
Quote

Dear Mandie,

You do not seem to understand the Fundamental Laws very well or know how Nicholas II handled each of the potential infractions about which you write.

May I suggest that you read further on this topic before making such broad statements.

David






Why? It  my opinion. I did say Some not all.. Sorry to who ever got a upest. >:( >:( >:( :-[
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on October 21, 2005, 05:16:43 PM
Quote
I would like to start a new thred! I have heard/read that Putin intends on restoring the monarchy as a constituitional one.Will this happen? How? When?Where? Why? etc.etc.

No, really romios...why would anyone, especially Putin, want that to happen? Please advise. Thanks.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 21, 2005, 09:56:05 PM
Don't know Jim, just asked the question!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 21, 2005, 10:34:12 PM
For me, Monarchy is not an anachronism. Very modern countries have a Monarchy nowadays: Spain, Belgium, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, Japan...so... What's the matter with the whole thing? We are not speaking about despotic rulers without a Parliament, but about modern Monarchies with democratic institutions...We may keep discussing the matter.

But of course RUSSIAN PEOPLE THEMSELF must decide if they wants a Monarchy or not for the years to come. And I didn't think it is a subject to discuss right now, after so little time Russians rejected communism. Let future talk and people calm down!  

But with or without a Monarchy, I'm sure of a thing: in a not far away future, Russia will raise again, and the world will hear about her!

God Bless Holy Russia.

RealAnastasia.  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: londo954 on October 22, 2005, 03:06:52 PM
No one has even remotely argued for teh return of the AUTOCRACY. But many have argued the notion of returning a Romanov to the throne to serve as a unifying symbol to keep the country together. Sort of a moral compass to keep the people focussed. A constituional monarch with no real power.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on October 27, 2005, 03:01:07 PM
Quote
Don't know Jim, just asked the question!

I think, of all people, Putin would be the least likely person to want to see a monarchy, constitutional or otherwise, come back to Russia.  Putin is an ex-KGB officer and a devout socialist, just exactly the opposite of a personality that would want to see the return of a monarchy.  Consider, too, the economic situation in Russia. Not good. Think about how many millions of rubles per year it would take to support a royal family (witness the UK for instance). Russia cannot afford that. I think we can put this notion to bed for good.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 27, 2005, 07:14:22 PM
Perhaps he is looking for some sort of stabiltiy Jim. Maybe the restoraction of the monarchy may create a sense of faith in the Russian people in their future. Economic costs of the monarchy would be irrelevant considering the benefits of stability.And besides what makes you think that he is an ardent socialist.People heve been known to change their views and opinions after the consideration of facts.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on October 28, 2005, 09:17:46 AM
Romios:

Putin is a former Soviet official of the same mindset as Lenin and Trotskii. He has called the collapse of the Soviet Union "one of the greatest geopolitical catastrophes of the 20th century" and he made that statement recently. He would like to see the return of the iron curtain. Someone who thinks and believes like that would not be someone who would want to see the return of a monarchy. He's pinning his hopes of "stability" on a consortium of eastern European and Asian economies, not the return of a monarchy.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 09:27:45 AM
Curiously, the Russian people seem to love Putin and would like him to come back for the third term (even though it is against the constitution). Many even consider changing the constitution... They think that Putin wants to "do things right for the people but the officials around him won't let him"  ???... I am not sure what the reasoning behind this is: it's either they have some serious insight that we don't, or he has them seriously fooled ;)!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 28, 2005, 09:41:55 AM
The Russians I have met have come to know like him as well.  I do not think they are fooled by much, least of all politicians ! That seems to be a western democratic flaw- being fooled by politicians.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on October 28, 2005, 10:42:55 AM
Quote
Curiously, the Russian people seem to love Putin and would like him to come back for the third term (even though it is against the constitution). Many even consider changing the constitution... They think that Putin wants to "do things right for the people but the officials around him won't let him"  ???... I am not sure what the reasoning behind this is: it's either they have some serious insight that we don't, or he has them seriously fooled ;)!

I just can't feature the return of a monarchy to Russia in any form or fashion. Especially the Romanov descendants, considering the awful experience they (the Russian people) had with the most recent one.

Respectfully,

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 01:29:42 PM
Quote
I just can't feature the return of a monarchy to Russia in any form or fashion. Especially the Romanov descendants, considering the awful experience they (the Russian people) had with the most recent one.



I agree, it will never happen.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 28, 2005, 01:44:57 PM
Quote
Think about how many millions of rubles per year it would take to support a royal family (witness the UK for instance).


Have to disagree with you their Jim! If millions go to any one, its to the unemployed and asylum seekers  :)
And what money it does cost to support the Royal Family (very little in comparison) we get back!
Thank you.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 02:05:21 PM
To be fair, I think the British royal family do bring in a lot of money from tourism to the British economy, so maybe it does make up for whatever expenses the tax payers have to shell out.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 28, 2005, 06:02:20 PM
O.k Jim lets consider the facts.
1.The last one (as you put it) of the Romanovs was executed with his entire family and buried in a pit.
2.Putins 2nd term expires shortly and he cannot run for President  again unless he manipulates the constituition.
3.He can however run for Prime Minister or any other office.Considering that fact he may want to insert one of his own people as President or perhaps a member of the Romanov Family as head of state thus he becoming the King maker rather than the King.(YOU GETTING MY DRIFT?)
4.Yes the Russian economy is definately in a shambles almost as bad as the American one however they do have lots of natural resources that they can use to restore it.ie oil gold silver grain etc etc (unlike the American one).
5.He is looking at attempting in creating some sort of a defacto trading block for the simple reason that every one else has got one as well and his markets are limited ie Eu,North and South American trading block, A.S.E.A.N. etc.
6.Important to remember that on his southern border he has got 1.6 billion Chinese who are about to become capitalists(they had a mutual military exercise recently didnt they?) and he also has the worlds only Imperial pwer at the moment involved in a war in his backyard  attempting to secure its own source of oil as well!
Looking forward to your reply!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: nerdycool on October 28, 2005, 11:46:12 PM
The American economy is hardly in shambles. Granted, it's not as good as it has been in the past, but I really don't think we should be compared to Russia's economy. Instead, a better comparison would be that of Russia and say... France, or Romania.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea, restoring a constitutional monarchy in Russia. There would be lots of things to consider, but I think that IF this does happen, the Romanov's won't be the family. That would be a huge headache from the conroversy as to who's legitimate and who's not. Instead, I can see a re-installation of the Ruriks, or maybe another family.

And I agree with one thing, Putin does not want a return to the monarchy... if anything, he wants the return of the Soviet Union, in some form or another.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: romios on October 29, 2005, 02:37:48 AM
re state symbol of Russia.Putin (I believe) reinstated it!



http://president.kremlin.ru/eng/articles/state_insignia_03.shtml
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Holly on November 23, 2005, 07:18:11 PM
Could anyone please post pictures of icons of the Imperial Family? I have only seen one before, but I know there must be others! Thanks!  :)
                                                        Holly
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Olga_Anna on November 23, 2005, 09:02:44 PM
Go to the 'Having Fun' thread the to 'Icon of Olga'.(It's on the second page.)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 23, 2005, 09:27:18 PM
Here, Holly, it's easier for you:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/Olga.jpg)

I am looking for the rest, I saw them somewhere!!

Sofi ;D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 23, 2005, 09:42:29 PM
Here are more, Holly!!

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/ggggggggggggggggg6hp.jpg)

The whole Imperial Family (NAAOTMA)


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/iconromanov9ha.jpg)

Alexei, the Tsar, and Tsarina


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/bbbb4hp.jpg)

Tsar Nicholas II


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/ella1mw.jpg)

Ella or Alexandra?


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/Olga.jpg)

Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaievna Romanova


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/tatianamartyr.jpg)

Grand Duchess Tatiana Nikolaievna Romanova


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/mariamartyr.jpg)

Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna Romanova


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/anastasiamartyr.jpg)

Grand duchess Anastasia Nikolaievna Romanova
(Holly's favorite!!)


(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/martyralexi.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/Grand_Duchess_Romanov/iiiiiiiiiiiiiii8xu.jpg)

Heir Tsarevich Alexis Nikolaievich Romanov


God Bless Them!!!

Sofi :)


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Holly on November 24, 2005, 05:36:30 PM
Ooo... :o Thanks bunches Sofi! I love that one of Anastasia, it looks so much like her! So does the first on e of Alexei!  :D
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 24, 2005, 05:54:11 PM
Your very welcome, sis'!! ;D
I agree, but I think that Marie looks more like Anastasia than she did in real life. Like, Marie looks more like she could be Nastya's twin, along with Nastya on the icon looking sooo much like herself!

Sofi ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Anastasia_R on November 24, 2005, 07:39:57 PM
Please escuse my stupidity but why do the crosses look like double crosses? :-[ :-[ ??? ???
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 24, 2005, 08:41:07 PM
Your stupidity is excused. ;) ;) ;D
Those are the Russian Orthodox crosses, they are like that.

Sofi :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: julia.montague on November 25, 2005, 10:14:11 AM
Hi Sofi,
it's Ella in the one you couldn't identify.
It says Elizaveta on the right.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Anastasia_R on November 25, 2005, 10:14:27 AM
http://www.antipas.org/news/russia/images/RomanovIcon.jpg
Sorry this is the only one I could find.:(
Thanks for telling me-I learn something new every day! ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 25, 2005, 10:38:36 AM
Oh, yes!! Thank you, Isa, I can read Cyrillic, but I never thought of actually trying my skills on that one.  ::)
Youre welcome, Anastasia R., I love your siggy.

Sofi ;)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on November 26, 2005, 11:56:07 PM
Yes, the Russian cross is quite distinctive,
the top cross bar is the sign that was hund saying Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews, the second, long bar is the part where His hands were nailed to the cross, and the bottom, slanting bar is the footrest, where His feet were nailed.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 27, 2005, 03:37:32 PM
Thats very interesting.  :)
Georgiy, are you a Russian Orthodox or a theologist?
Or maybe you are just very smart!! ;)

Sofi :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Georgiy on November 27, 2005, 07:24:12 PM
Japanese Orthodox as it happens, but not very smart!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Russian_Duchess_#5 on November 27, 2005, 08:29:58 PM
 ;) ;)
Well, then you must know alot about history.

Sofi :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2005, 07:17:35 PM
courtesy of palimpest

(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1999/25696373st.jpg )

St. Petersburg's Peter and Paul Cathedral, the traditional burial site of Russia's Romanov czars, is seen in this Jan. 20, 1998, photo. The Russian government overrode last-minute hesitations by the Orthodox Church on Friday Feb. 27, 1998, and decided to proceed with plans to bury Russia's last czar this summer. Based on the findings, a government commission concluded last month the bones belong to the royal family, and recommended a state funeral in the cathedral on July 17, 1998, whichis also the80th anniversary of their deaths. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2005, 07:18:51 PM
courtesy of palimpest

(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1254/28692101rs.jpg )

.In his home at Rougemont, Switzerland,on Tuesday, July 7, 1998, Prince Nicholas Romanov, head of the descendants of the late Russian Czar Nicholas 2nd talks of the preparations for next July 17 funeral ceremony at St Petersburg, Russia,for Czar Nicholas 2nd and his family killed 80 years ago. (AP Photo/Donald Stampfli)


(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9008/28739924zq.jpg )

Prince Nikolai Romanovich Romanov, left, and Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich Romanov, both descendents of Russia's Imperial family, listen at a press conference in St. Petersburg, July 14,1998. Russia's last czar, Nicholas II, and his family will be formally buried Friday, the 80th anniversary of their executions by the Bolsheviks. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2005, 07:19:23 PM
courtesy of palimpest

(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/8540/28759981lb.jpg )

Members of the Romanov dynasty walk during a memorial ceremony at the Piskarev Cemetery in St. Petersburg, Wednesday, July 15, 1998 in advance of Friday's 80th anniversary of the killings of the Russian royal family by the Bolsheviks. Duke Nikolai Romanovich Romanov is right of the center. (AP Photo/Alexander Zemlianichenko)


(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2629/28766030ju.jpg )

Romanov descendant Michail Romanov, right, greets visitor Anatoly Tkachenko, left, as the two attend a ceremony aboard the ship Aurora in St. Petersburg Wednesday, July 15, 1998. The Aurora's cannon shot marked the begining of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. The Bolsheviks who killed the czar went to great lengths to obscure the truth. They didn t want the remains of the family - especially those of the heir to the throne, Alexei - to become objects of worship or help rally political opposition to their new regime. But the very secrecy that helped their political cause also made it difficult to disprove many of the stories told by would-be Romanovs, who began popping up around the world almost immediately after the family disappeared. (AP Photo/Dmitri Lovetsky)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2005, 07:20:05 PM
courtesy of palimpset

(http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6886/28766896ji.jpg )

Duke Nikolai Romanovich Romanov, great-great-grandson of Czar Nicholas I and a distant cousin of Nicholas II, looks at pictures at the exhibition "The Last Russian Czar" in Smolny Cathedral in St. Petersburg Wednesday, July 15, 1998. Russia's last czar, Nicholas II and his family will be formally buried Friday, the 80th anniversary of their execution by the Bolsheviks. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)


(http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9467/28772462bw.jpg )

A sailor salutes Duke Nikolai Romanovich Romanov during a ceremony aboard the ship Aurora in St. Petersburg, Wednesday, July 15, 1998. Aurora's cannon shot marked the begining of the Bolshevik Revolution. Prior to Friday's burial of the remains of the last czar, Nicholas II, Romanov descendants have been making an effort to heal the wounds opened by the revolution. (AP Photo/Dmitri Lovetsky)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2005, 07:20:41 PM
courtesy of palimpest

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5203/28805571lg.jpg )

Leonida Georgievna Romanov, second from left, the czar's cousin by marriage, her daughter Maria, left, and 17-year-old grandson Georgy, hold candles during a requiem for Russia's last czar carried out by Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Alexy II at the Assumption Cathedral in Sergiyev Posad near Moscow on Friday, July 17, 1998. Maria insists that Georgy is a legitimate heir to the Russian throne, a claim rejected by other Romanovs. Leonida, Maria and Georgy skipped the czar's funeral on Friday after the Russian government warned them it wouldn't distinguish them from other Romanovs. Others are unidentified. (AP Photo)

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3363/28808447rr.jpg )

Duke Nikolai Romanovich Romanov throws soil on coffins during a burial ceremony for Russia's last czar, Nicholas II, and his family in St.Peter and Paul Cathedral in St.Petersburg, Friday, July 17, 1998. With the scent of incense hanging in the air, the czar was buried in a ceremony that Yeltsin called an atonement for "one of the most shameful pages of our history." Fourth from left, bearded, is the Duke Michael of Kent, the British royal family's representative at the burial. (AP Photo/Pool)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:29:31 AM
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6173/83709611eh.jpg)

Russian Orthodox faithful carry an icon depicting slain Czar Nicholas II during a religious procession marking the anniversary of the execution in Moscow, Sunday, July 17, 2005, with the Moscow Kremlin in the background. Nicholas, who abdicated in March 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and his family were detained and in April 1918 they were sent to Yekaterinburg. Three months later, on July 17, 1918, a firing squad lined them up in the basement of a merchant's house and shot them. (AP Photo/Sergey Ponomarev)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:37:46 AM
(http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3989/83705988hf.jpg)

Russian Orthodox faithful stand near a cross marking the mining pit where the bodies of slain Czar Nicholas II and his family were thrown by the Bolsheviks in Yekaterinburg, in the Ural Mountains about 1,500 km (900 miles) east of Moscow, Sunday, July 17, 2005. Nicholas, who abdicated in March 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and his family were detained and in April 1918 they were sent to Yekaterinburg. Three months later, on July 17, 1918, a firing squad lined them up in the basement of a merchant's house and shot them. (AP Photo/Peter Fokin)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:41:52 AM
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6993/83705945zu.jpg)

Russian Orthodox faithful cross themselves at the memorial marking the place where Czar Nicholas II and his family were shot to death by the Bolsheviks, inside a memorial church built on the spot in Yekaterinburg, in the Ural Mountains about 1,500 km (900 miles) east of Moscow, Sunday, July 17, 2005. Nicholas, who abdicated in March 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and his family were detained and in April 1918 they were sent to Yekaterinburg. Three months later, on July 17, 1918, a firing squad lined them up in the basement of a merchant's house and shot them. (AP Photo/Peter Fokin)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:44:21 AM
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4277/68495713yh.jpg)

Russian Orthodox faithful and clerics gather for a consecration ceremony of a memorial church built on the spot where Czar Nicholas II and his family were shot to death by the Bolsheviks, in Yekaterinburg, in the Ural Mountains about 1,500 km (900 miles) east of Moscow, Wednesday, July 16, 2003. The Church on the Blood, a golden-domed memorial church was built on the site where the last czar, his wife Alexandra and their five children were executed in a cellar on July 17, 1918. (AP Photo/Alexei Vladykin/UralPress Photo)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:46:48 AM
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1643/68495702ab.jpg)

Russian Orthodox priests carry an icon during a consecration ceremony of a memorial church built on the spot where Czar Nicholas II and his family were shot to death by the Bolsheviks, in Yekaterinburg, in the Ural Mountains about 1,500 km (900 miles) east of Moscow, Wednesday, July 16, 2003. The Church on the Blood, a golden-domed memorial church was built on the site where the last czar, his wife Alexandra and their five children were executed in a cellar on July 17, 1918. (AP Photo/UralPress Photo/Alexei Vladykin)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 11:54:26 AM
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7946/48637564lb.jpg)

Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Alexi II holds an icon during a religious service in Moscow Sunday Aug. 20, 2000. The Russian Orthodox Church officially canonized Czar NIcholas II on Sunday.(AP Photo/Mikhail Metzel)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 12:03:54 PM
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7176/28785926qa.jpg)

Honor guards carry coffins containing the remains of the last Russian Czar Nicholas II, his wife Alexandra, three of their five children, the family doctor and three servants to the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral of The St. Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, Thursday, July 16, 1998. The Czar's coffin is being carried second to last, followed by his wife Alexandra. (AP Photo/Str)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 12:06:28 PM
(http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/1046/28762689dt.jpg)

Russian soldiers stand guard over the sarcophagi containing the remains of Russia's last czar, his wife, three of their five children and four servants at the city morgue in Yekaterinburg Wednesday, July 15, 1998. The remains are to be put into coffins seen at left later on Wednesday. On Thursday they will be driven to a local church and then sent on a plane to St. Petersburg for Friday's burial. (AP Photo/Mikhail Metzel)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 16, 2005, 12:09:08 PM
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7139/28782350dn.jpg)

A Russian Orthodox priest officiates during a memorial service for Nicholas II, Russia's last czar, and his family in Yekaterinburg's Ascension of the Lord Church on Thursday, July 16 1998. The royal remains were later flown to St. Petersburg for the funeral on Friday, 80 years after the monarch was forced into Siberian exile and executed. (AP Photo/Mikhail Metzel)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: julia.montague on December 16, 2005, 01:28:46 PM
Thanks for posting these.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Anastasia_R on December 17, 2005, 10:07:06 PM
Beautiful pics!
OO and glad you liek the siggy Sofi,hannon le(Thank you in Elvish ;))
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 18, 2005, 07:09:46 AM
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4641/70983513yj.jpg)

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1375/72418006ln.jpg)

A big church bell is hoisted to a belfry after a blessing ceremony at the Trinity St. Sergius monastery in Sergiyev Posad, northeast of Moscow, Russia, Friday, April 16, 2004. Czar Bell that will be the biggest ever to ring in Russia was blessed Friday and hoisted up to the belfry at one of the holiest sites of the country's dominant Russian Orthodox faith. After the blessing ceremony led by Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II, a huge crane raised the 72-metric ton (79-short ton) Czar Bell to a platform near the spot where it is to hang in the tower at the Trinity St. Sergius monastery. (AP Photo)

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4408/72424167rd.jpg)

Workers prepare to install a big church bell hoisted to a belfry after a blessing ceremony at the Trinity St. Sergius monastery in Sergiyev Posad, northeast of Moscow, Friday, April 16, 2004. The Czar Bell will be the biggest ever to ring in Russia, after is was blessed Friday and hoisted up to the belfry at one of the holiest sites of the country's dominant Russian Orthodox faith. After a blessing ceremony led by Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II, a huge crane raised the 72-metric ton (79-short ton) Czar Bell to a platform near the spot where it is to hang in the tower at the Trinity St. Sergius monastery. (AP Photo/Misha Japaridze)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 18, 2005, 07:14:30 AM
(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9277/72417345rt.jpg)

A blessing ceremony of a big church bell, Czar Bell, led by Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II, is held at the Trinity St. Sergius monastery in Sergiyev Posad, northeast of Moscow, Friday, April 16, 2004. Czar Bell, which will be the biggest ever to ring in Russia, was blessed Friday and hoisted up to a belfry at one of the holiest sites of the country's dominant Russian Orthodox faith. (AP Photo/Misha Japaridze)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Anastasia_R on December 18, 2005, 06:40:46 PM
http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/holyroyalbearers.jpg
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Margarita Markovna on December 18, 2005, 06:45:18 PM
Quote
http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/holyroyalbearers.jpg



Thanks- never seen this one before!! Olga looks amazing doesn't she?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 18, 2005, 07:37:24 PM
(http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/holyroyalbearers.jpg)

I have this lovely one in my room! :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tania+ on December 18, 2005, 09:29:20 PM
Thank you very much for the lovely Icons.
They mean much to me, especially now.

Tatiana
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 19, 2005, 07:55:05 PM
(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7654/68509496dz.jpg)

A Russian Orthodox believer kisses an icon bearing the image of Russia's last czar Nicholas II, before a religious procession marking the anniversary of the czar's execution along with his family, in downtown Moscow, Thursday, July 17, 2003. Czar Nicholas II, his family, doctor and servants were killed by the Bolsheviks on July 17, 1918. In the background is a monument to Cyril and Methodius, founders of the Cyrillic alphabet. (AP Photo/Alexander Zemlianichenko)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 19, 2005, 07:56:08 PM
(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2272/68509483be.jpg)

Russian Orthodox believers holding icons and pictures bearing images of Russia's last czar Nicholas II, take part in a religious procession marking the anniversary of his execution along with his family, in downtown Moscow, Thursday July 17, 2003. Czar Nicholas II and his family were shot to death by the Bolsheviks on July 17, 1918. (AP Photo/Ivan Sekretarev)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 19, 2005, 07:59:16 PM
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3356/32834588fz.jpg)

A Russian man holds an icon-like painting of Russia's last Czar, Nicholas II, at an the unveiling of a statue of the Czar, in Podolsk, Russia, about 25 kilometers (15 miles) south of Moscow, Saturday, Jan. 16, 1999. The 7-meter (23-foot) bronze-and-stone monument of Nicholas II replaces a plaster model that was blown up in November. (AP Photo/Misha Japaridze)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 19, 2005, 08:01:13 PM
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/8486/28782088gn.jpg)

The bullet-riddled skull of Russia's last czar Nicholas II, is prepared for burial along with other royal bones at the city morgue in Yekaterinburg on Tuesday, July 14, 1998. On Wednesday, the remains of Nicholas II, his family and servants were placed in coffins and sealed in presence of the government's representatives in preparation for the funeral in St. Petersburg on Friday, July 17. (AP Photo)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on December 19, 2005, 08:09:19 PM
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4084/73747295ow.jpg)

A relative of the Russian czar Nikolai II, Grand Duke Dmitry Romanovich, right, and his wife Dorothy follow an Orthodox priest carrying the icon of the Savior, which they returned, at St. Petersburg's Novodevichy Convent, Monday, July 19, 2004. The descendant of Russia's royal family on Monday returned the famed Russian Orthodox icon to a convent in the former imperial capital of St. Petersburg after it was taken abroad following the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)

(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3411/73747269yc.jpg)

A relative of the Russian Czar Nikolai II, Grand Duke Dmitry Romanovich, and his wife Dorothy look at an Orthodox priest kissing the icon of the Savior, which they returned, at St. Petersburg's Novodevichy Convent, Monday, July 19, 2004. The descendant of Russia's royal family on Monday returned the famed Russian Orthodox icon to a convent in the former imperial capital of St. Petersburg after it was taken abroad following the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on January 01, 2006, 05:34:42 PM
I don't know where to post this photo; if you know a better place for it please copy it there; thank you!


(http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/445/82050766nd.jpg)

The head of Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Alexi II holds a service at the just unveiled monument to Czar Alexander II near Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow, Tuesday, June 7 2005. Alexander II was born in 1818 and crowned on February 19, 1855. Though his rule was marked by the emancipation of the serfs, and judicial and military reforms Alexander II was assassinated March 1, 1881, by terrorists, members of small revolutionary party Narodnaya volya (The Peoples Will). (AP Photo)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on January 01, 2006, 05:37:24 PM
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1818/90027853kc.jpg)

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2028/90027843rm.jpg)

Christie's employee Sandra Nedvetskaia looks into a silver gilt and enamel Russian triptych icon that was formerly in the possesion of Tsar Alexis, son of Tsar Nicolas II, at a press preview for the Christie's Russian Works of Art auction sale in central London, Monday Nov. 28, 2005. The icon is estimated to reach between GBP220,000-280,000 (US$358,380-456,120) at the sale on Nov. 30, 2005. (AP Photo/Jane Mingay)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on January 01, 2006, 11:05:10 PM
Anyone interested in “things” orthodox can look up the following threads on this forum:



Imperial Russian History   //   discussion about Orthodoxy (2)

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=history;action=display;num=1121353312;start=0



Balkan Royal Families   //   The Byzantine Empire

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=balkans;action=display;num=1114076649



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Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: reashka on January 02, 2006, 12:36:10 AM
Quote
(http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/holyroyalbearers.jpg)

I have this lovely one in my room! :)


I also have this in my computer :) It really does look like them, especially Alexandra.

I think this one was also posted on some forums, but anyways:
(http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/3779/royalmartyrs9ty.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/6209/orthodoxmartyrs5qu.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: L. on February 22, 2006, 04:03:48 PM
Quote
(http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/holyroyalbearers.jpg)

I have this lovely one in my room! :)


 Me too! :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: palimpsest on April 14, 2006, 10:31:58 AM
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/palimpsest/royal/7382825.jpg)

A Russian Orthodox priest conducts a service near a golden ark containing relics of Grand Duchess Elizabeth, in Moscow's Christ the Savior Cathedral, Sunday, July 25, 2004, to mark the arrival of the relics in Moscow from Jerusalem. The remains of the last czarina's sister, who was thrown down a mine shaft by Bolsheviks in 1918 and has been canonized by both the Moscow-based church and the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia, were brought to Russia on Sunday in the latest sign of unity between the dominant Russian Orthodox Church and its foreign branch, which broke away after the Bolshevik Revolution. (AP Photo/ Str)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on April 19, 2006, 03:42:27 AM
Who was at burial of the last Tsar and his family.

PrinceNicholas Romanov and his brother  Prince Dmitri were there. Nicholas is head of the Romanov family.  His line is through Roman , son of G.D. Peter 1861 1931.
Prince Nicholas said on  the russian episode of Father in law of Europe, that President Yelstin was not expected, and when he unexpectedly arrived , he his brother and he asked Michael of Kent to come with them, to greet the President. He did this deliberately because Michael of Kent looks like the last Tsar.  He definately had a twinkle in  his eye and a small smile.  He said Mrs. Yelstin cried the whole time.

It was Yelstin who ordered  bulldozers to raze the Impatiev House at Etkatienburg.  Hope I have spelt last 2 places correctly.  Cannot find there spelling to check.

Prince Michael of Greece [writer] was also there, and it where he met  Natalya Androssov Iskander Romanov, and how his book{The White Night of St. Petersburg] was written.  Her    grandfather was G.D. Nicholas Konstatinovich  1851 1918, died Tashkent.  He was exiled there.  Called the Black sheep of the family. Natalya is no.27 of members of family at burial, next yo 27, Michael of Kent.

Signed   HRH
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 22, 2006, 12:18:56 AM
MEMBERS OF THE ROMANOV FAMILY, THEIR CLOSE RELATIVES AND RELATIVES OF OTHER EKATERINBURG VICTIMS, PRESENT AT THE 17 JULY CEREMONY:

1. Xenia Andreevna.
2. Michael Andreevich and wife Giulia.
3. Nicholas Romanovich and wife Sveva.
4. Andrew Andreevich sen. and wife Ines.
5. Nikita Nikitich and wife Janet.
6. Dimitri Romanovich and wife Dorrit
7. Paul Dimitrievich and wife Angelika, with granddaughter Audrey de Young.
8. Rostislav Rostislavich sen. and wife Tia.
9. Olga Andreevna, and her son Francis Matthew.
10. Natalia Nikolaievna and her daughter Nicoletta.
11. Alexis Andreevich and wife Zoetta.
12. Paula Pavlovna and her children Alexander and Makena Comisar.
13. Michael Pavlovich.
14. Peter Andreevich.
15. Andrew Andreevich jun. and wife Elizabeth.
16. Feodor Nikitich.
17. Catherine Dimitrievna.
18. Alexandra Rostislavna.
19. Rostislav Rostislavich jun.
20. Nikita Rostislavich.

and:

21. Nicoletta Arcelus, daughter of Princess Catherine Ioannovna with her sons Victor-John and Sebastian, with Julia Renner.
22. Fiammetta Zanelli, daughter of Princess Catherine Ioannovna with her husband Mr. Ideal Zanelli and son Alessandro.
23. Tatiana Beadleston, daughter of Marina Vasilievna.
24. Nancy Wynkoop, daughter of Princess Xenia Gheorgievna.
25. Xenia Sfiris, granddaughter of Princess Irina Alexandrovna.
26. Michael of Kent, grandson of Grand Duchess Helen Wladimirovna.
27. Natalia Iskander, granddaughter of Grand Duke Nicholas Constantinovich.
28. George Yurjevsky, great grandson of Emperor Alexander II.
29. Emmanuil Golitzin, great-grandson of Grand Duchess Catherine Mihailovna.
30. Huno of Oldenburg, great-great-great-great grandson of Grand Duchess Helen Pavlovna and his family.

and also:

31. Constantine Melnik, grandson of Dr E. Botkin with his granddaughter.
32. Mr Haritonov, grandson of the cook Ivan Haritonov.
33. Natalie Demidova, grand-niece of the maid Anna Demidova.

The above was included in the Romanov Family Association website.

Since the burial, Prince Paul Dmitrivich Ilyinsky has died of leukemia, as has his granddaughter who attended the services, Makena Comisar. Princess Xenia Andreievna passed away in the 2000's, Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich died several months after the funeral from complications from an infection he contracted in the cathedral.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: marina on April 22, 2006, 06:22:23 AM
http://imperator.spbnews.ru/video/index_e.phtml

This is video of burial. I already posted it but visibly you never saw it.  :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on April 22, 2006, 06:50:22 AM
Quote
Who was at burial of the last Tsar and his family.

Dr Alexander Avdonin who found the Imperial remains and those of their support staff was invited to attend.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on May 02, 2006, 06:58:13 PM
WHY was not Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son, G.D. George, the supposed Head of the Romanov Family, not at the burial  in St. Petersburg, of the Imperial Family in 1998?

refer to The Burial of The Imperial Family page 4.  Alex Pal.

The other claimant, Prince Nicholas Romanovich, head of the Imperial House of Russia, and chairman of the Romanov Family Association , was there , along with  30 members  of the Romanov Family.

If G.D. Maria has a superior claim to be Head of The  Family, why, on this most important occassion, was she not in attendance?

Signed  HRH
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 04, 2006, 10:07:53 PM
The answer is very simple - bacause the real head of the Romanov House, Prince Nicholas Romanov was in attendance.

Mariya and her son George have pretensions to a non existent throne.

There were 42 members of the Romanov Family in 1998 who believed this to be so.

[Ref: Monarchy's Heirs Inherit Family Feud In: St. Petersburg Times June 30, 1998]
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Teddy on May 05, 2006, 04:24:09 AM
Prince Nicholas the real head of the house of Romanov. I don't think so. But thats' not the question.

The reason that Maria, Georgi and Leonida didn't went to the funeral, because the Russian goverment advised them not to come because they said, it wouldn't distinguish them from other Romanovs.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 05, 2006, 01:42:49 PM
Admirable efforts to make the rift in the family seem simple. However, it's not so simple. This particular rift goes back 82 years to be exact. On one side is the Vladmirovichi, who have a legitimate claim to be head of the dynasty on the basis of the Fundamental Law. On the other is pretty much the balance of the Romanov descendants who have designated Nicholas Romanovich as their head. "The Russian Government" is no more united than they are and seem to flip flop between the two groups like newly caught fish.

When it came to the burial of the IF, the mayor of St. Petersburg favored the second group. Maria V certainly could have attended the ceremonies, but it was more important that she not show herself as anything but the de jure Empress and head of the dynasty than attend the funeral. Very sad business, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on May 05, 2006, 06:28:16 PM
Great.  This is really great.  We have 2 camps of  thought.

I am pleased as this should generate lively discussion.

I read [The Succession Question] by Pieter Brock, and rebuttal ??
reference    htpp://www.geocities.com/konnoff/rebuttal.htm?20063

and personally feel, that as Russia followed the Salic Law, similar to the French Royals, and as Nicholas II had only 1 son, the line should go through the males only.

The rebuttal  states [article 27. that males and females have a right of succession]  If this is so, WHY such a big fuss about Alexis  being ill, when there were 4 healthy daughters.


Signed  HRH
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: carl fraley on May 05, 2006, 10:10:38 PM
The "Pauline" law your asking about still would have affected Nicholas heir.  The fundemental law stated that Women could only succeed if there were NO legit Males ALIVe.  So if Alexis did die then it would have still gone to Michael, and this making the Vladimirichi even closer to the throne since Michaels son was not a legit Grand Duke.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 05, 2006, 11:27:42 PM
Quote
Maria V certainly could have attended the ceremonies, but it was more important that she not show herself as anything but the de jure Empress and head of the dynasty than attend the funeral. Very sad business, in my opinion.

The events since the 1991 uplift of the remains, and leading up to the funeral of the Imperial family was always surrounded by politics.

The imposter and her son were correctly denied to attend the burial.

To avoid personal humiliation she and her son stayed outside of Russia.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 06, 2006, 01:01:53 AM
Belochka:

I don't believe the other members of the family consider Maria V to be an imposter. Rather, they think that the time for the dynasty has long since passed and that therefore she has no to right to be considered a grand duchess.

I also don't believe she was denied a chance to attend the burial. I have several emails from family members indicating otherwise. However, the others consider her to be Princess Maria V - a style she does not recognize for herself.

It is all very complicated and I feel very sad.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 03:05:09 AM
Quote
Belochka:

I don't believe the other members of the family consider Maria V to be an imposter. Rather, they think that the time for the dynasty has long since passed and that therefore she has no to right to be considered a grand duchess.

I also don't believe she was denied a chance to attend the burial. I have several emails from family members indicating otherwise. However, the others consider her to be Princess Maria V - a style she does not recognize for herself.

It is all very complicated and I feel very sad.

The late academician Dmitri Likhachev was instrumental in ensuring that the Mariya was not to attend the ceremony. He stated that "The funeral was not a political event, but a historic day when Russia cleansed itself.

[Ref: Ordinary Russians Pay their Respects to Tsar, St. Petersburg Times, Tuesday, July 21, 1998]


Boris Yeltsin received a letter in 1997 in which Likhachev and supporters wrote that  Mariya Vladimirovna's attempt to elevate her status for her side of the family must be condemned.

[Ref: Monarchy's Heirs Inherit Family Feud, St. Petersburg Times, Tuesday, Jule 30, 1998]


Several hundred official guests paid their respects.

Prince Nicholas stated:

Mariya prefered to join Alexei II in "Zargorsk" (now Sergeev Possad)

"They are wasting their time, damaging the reputation of the Romanov Family. It is sad that Mariya Vladimirovna has taken this line."

There were 3 members of the family who do not consider Prince Nicholas to be head of the Romanov Family.

[Ref: Attending Romanovs Bring Class,Clout to Burial. St. Petersburg Times, Friday July 17, 1998]


Her presence would have been a political event. But her excuse at the time was that was that she was absent because Alexey II was not officiating.

[Ref: Finally, Bones Even the Patriarch Can Believe In, St. Petersburg Times, Friday, August 21, 1998]


Another excuse she proffered was that the "modesty of the ceremony" and "It has not been organized in a way that befits an Emperor."

[Ref: Chaos Reigns as Nicholas II's Burial Approaches, St. Petersburg Times, Friday July 10, 1998]



Such a funeral only happens once, no matter how it was conducted before the world.

Yet, as the coffins were lowered into the grave a 19-gun salute resounded from the Fortress through out St. Petersburg (3 less because he abdicated).


It was a historic day for Russia - one of her finest in the 20th century.

Nevertheless, IMHO it was only because Prince Nicholas was attending as the Head of the Romanov Family.

Mariya Hollenzollern only creates the impression that her son is the Romanov heir by her audible use of the European media. Her presence, as Likhachev most correctly alluded to would have been indeed political.


Emperor Nikolai II's words in part still hold true:

"All around there is .... deception"[/font].
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Maximilian on May 06, 2006, 03:18:07 AM
Quote
WHY was not Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son, G.D. George, the supposed Head of the Romanov Family, not at the burial  in St. Petersburg, of the Imperial Family in 1998?

Grand Duches Maria Vladimirovna was invited to attend the re-burial, with the rest of the Romanov family. But G.D. Maria V request to the Russian government to don’t invite the rest of the romanovs because according to her they are not dynastic. She also suggests to the Russian Government to bury the Imperial Family separated from their serfs (including Doctor Botkin) something that the rest of the Romanov didn’t agreed.
The republican Russian government didn’t distinguish a Romanov Dynast from another not Dynast and invites all the Romanovs including Maria. But she declined and made her own private ceremony with her own family. (Her mother, her son, and of course herself)

Quote
The other claimant, Prince Nicholas Romanovich, head of the Imperial House of Russia, and chairman of the Romanov Family Association, was there , along with  30 members  of the Romanov Family.

Prince Nicholas Romanovich Romanov isn’t a claim to the throne, he have in fact say most of the times that he believes more in a republic system. He isn’t a claimant head of the Romanov Family. He is in fact. And it was confirmed as head of the Romanov Family on the re-burial of 1998. That is a fact not a pretension.

Quote
If G.D. Maria has a superior claim to be Head of The Family, why, on this most important occassion, was she not in attendance?

G.D. Maria V isn’t the head of the Romanov Family, and as Lisa Davidson Pointed out  “ This particular rift goes back 82 years to be exact. “
When Gran Duke Cyril claimed to be the head of the Romanov family and the Romanov Family did’t considerer him to be his head. Even The dowager Empress didn’t recognize his claims. Therefor G.D. Cyril could not be a head of a family that didn’t recognize him as his head. If he was the head, then it was a head with out body. And the same happens to G.D. Maria V.


I feel very sorry for G.D. Maria, because since Grand Duke Cyril‘s claim, the Vladimirochi starts isolate the Romanovs who didn’t married according to  the family laws and now they are the one who are isolated from the rest of the family. It is very sad story. The applications of the fundamental laws are not any more valid, since the only country that recognized those laws was the imperial Russia and that not longer exist. Therefore those laws are no applicable after the revolution.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 05:36:27 AM
Quote

 She also suggests to the Russian Government to bury the Imperial Family separated from their serfs (including Doctor Botkin) something that the rest of the Romanov didn’t agreed.

Dr Botkin was not a "serf". He was the family physician. The other members could not be classed as serfs either. They were employed by the household before they were imprisoned.


Quote
G.D. Maria V isn’t the head of the Romanov Family, .... The dowager Empress didn’t recognize his claims. Therefor G.D. Cyril could not be a head of a family that didn’t recognize him as his hed.

Correct, but this belief also stemmed from the fact that she refused to believe that her son Nikolai was assassinated.  

The other point to consider is that Kirill on Russian soil was the first Romanov to flee his chaotic country of birth. He should have acted as her protector. Instead he was sympathetic to the bolshevik cause. Going to the "other" side gives him no right to then turn around and stipulate that he now had superior legal status in a foreign jurisdiction. There is a distict contradiction after the fact.


 
Quote
I feel very sorry for G.D. Maria, because since Grand Duke Cyril‘s claim the Vladimirochi starts isolate the Romanovs who didn’t married according to  the family laws and now they are the one who are isolated from the rest of the family.

It is impossible to feel any sympathy for a person who deceives. She conveniently ignors her son's father's family.

Quote
The applications of the fundamental laws are not any more valid, since the only country that recognized those laws were the imperial Russia and that not longer exist. Therefore those laws are no applicable after the revolution.

Very true, old Russian Imperial Laws have not legal status in modern democratic Russia.

The Russian Imperial Laws have become a legal academic curiosity which have no legal binding towards any living individual today. When Imperial Russia ceased to exist as a political entity, so did ALL the laws which were enacted on her behalf.

To apply particular statutes from the void Imperial Laws into a foreign jurisdiction is a nonsense.

 
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 06:00:49 AM
Quote
She also suggests to the Russian Government to bury the Imperial Family separated from their serfs (including Doctor Botkin) something that the rest of the Romanov didn’t agreed.

This matter highlights how gracious Prince Nicholas was at the time. Their honorable loyalty to the bitter end deserved no less an honor than to buried together than those they selflessly served. They were assasinated together and are thus indistinguishable in death.

It was an extraordinary situation that called for an extraordinary solution. Prince Nicholas recognized that those four individuals deserved no lesser a commemoration.

Prince Nicholas deserves the utmost respect.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 06, 2006, 10:14:31 AM
I agree it was admirable of Prince Nicholas to insist that everyone be buried together. However, it was not solely his decision. I know for a fact that he consulted with other members of the family and that nearly everyone felt the same way. We easily forget today what pariahs the Family was prior to their deaths. It was incredibly brave for Dr. Botkin and the others to remain with them and face an almost certain death at the hands of their Bolshevik captors. Clearly, these final members of the Imperial suite and remaining servants deserve the highest honor. I personally highly respect the current family's decision in this matter.

And, to further clarify, it was said on this thread that Maria V was not invited to the burial, yet, as has been posted, clearly, she was invited and decided to not attend. There is a difference.

Finally, I am unconfortable with Belochka's characterizations of Maria V as a deceptive imposter. This is a highly political matter both inside and outside the family. But, for starters, her marriage contract clearly called for her to remain a Romanov dynast, something her own husband does not dispute. Such arrangements were not uncommon in Russia then, as evidenced by the Yussoupovs, and now, as evidenced by our own Dimitry Macedonsky. Even if one disrespects these marital contracts, at the very least, Maria would still be a Princess of Prussia. According to the RFA, Maria is still a Romanov, and is one of the senior living descendants of Nicholas I by their website. They consider Maria to be mistaken and not an imposter and certainly not deceptive. So, I take it you are in disagreement, Belochka,  with both factions of the family?

It is indeed a sad thing that this family is not united, but unfortunately, this type of divisiveness seems to permeate everything and everyone connected with the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 08:20:31 PM
Quote
According to the RFA, Maria is still a Romanov, and is one of the senior living descendants of Nicholas I by their website. They consider Maria to be mistaken and not an imposter and certainly not deceptive. So, I take it you are in disagreement, Belochka,  with both factions of the family?

This is the declaration of the RFA in 1981:

"The Romanov Family Association hereby declares that the happy family occassion within the Prussian Family does not concern the Romanov Family Association, as the new-born Prince is neither a member of the Russian Royal Family nor the Romanov Family."


M.V. declared in 1992:

"I hereby declare that fully confirming to my father's will and deeply conscious of my sacred duty, I assume by virtue of my postion as Head of the Imperial House, all the rightl and duties passing to me in accordance with the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire and the Statute of the Imperial Family."

Lisa,

The Russian Empire collapsed in March 1917.

All Imperial Laws were expunged in March 1917.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 08:34:08 PM
Leonida made a secret visit to the resting place of Emperor Nikolai II and his Family, after making her much publicised announcement in not attending the burial ceremony.

Kommersant, August 20, 1998
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2006, 08:50:11 PM
Quote
I agree it was admirable of Prince Nicholas to insist that everyone be buried together. However, it was not solely his decision. I know for a fact that he consulted with other members of the family and that nearly everyone felt the same way.

Indeed, The Russian government with the agreement of the living Romanov Family all declared that it was a "democratic gesture and measure of respect towards these faithful servants who voluntarily stayed with the Romanovs at the cost of their lives."

[Ref: The St. Petersburg Times, Tuesday, July 21, 1998]

Quote
It was incredibly brave for Dr. Botkin and the others to remain with them and face an almost certain death at the hands of their Bolshevik captors. Clearly, these final members of the Imperial suite and remaining servants deserve the highest honor. I personally highly respect the current family's decision in this matter.


Dr Botkin knew his days were numbered and this is clearly identified from his words penned to his brother Sergei on 9 July, 1918. That letter is preserved in GARF and was published in full in Tatyana Mel'nik-Botkina's Russian edition memoirs (2004).


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 08, 2006, 07:10:55 AM
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Tania+ on May 08, 2006, 10:58:39 AM
Belochka,

This statement exactly is what so many emigree's of the Revolution and their children, etc.hold as well,  their final judgement. I'm sure for many inside Russia, it remains their stance. Until the two bodies are found as well, there is yet to be real understanding to date.

Tatiana+



Quote :
"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."



Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 08, 2006, 04:27:46 PM
Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]

This is an excellent point and one worth pondering. Because, it is my understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is still influenced by, if not controlled by, the Communist party.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 08, 2006, 08:24:17 PM
Quote
Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]

This is an excellent point and one worth pondering. Because, it is my understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is still influenced by, if not controlled by, the Communist party.


Lisa,

Perhaps now you can understand my point about M.V. and her son?

Don't you see how incompatible her public projections are when she is supported by and she herself mingles openely with the old communist faction?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 08, 2006, 09:02:41 PM
Quote
Belochka,

This statement exactly is what so many emigree's of the Revolution and their children, etc.hold as well,  their final judgement. I'm sure for many inside Russia, it remains their stance. Until the two bodies are found as well, there is yet to be real understanding to date.

Tatiana+

Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]

Respectfully I disagree.

The Moscow faction is not the same as ROCOR. The two are not united in principle or philosophy.

The authenticity of the Imperial Remains was proven beyond reasonable doubt by the Soloviev Commission who handed down their Report in 1998 to Boris Yeltsin, following 5 years of extensive Russian and international teams of forensic expert investigations, that included Dr Gill in England and the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in the U. S. and Professors Abramov, Ivanov and Rogaev in Russia.

When the remains of Tsesarevich Alexei and Grand Duchess Mariya are located and re-buried with their family in St. Petersburg, only then can this tragic chapter in Russia's history be sealed.
[/font]

Essentially, the Moscow Patriarchate and M. V.'s family including a small vocal Russian faction residing in North America prefer to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 09, 2006, 01:25:41 AM
[size=14]So many strong opinions on this thread. So many minds made up as to what was really happening around the time of the burial. So many unsubtantiated accusations. So many half truths. Do any of you commenting actually know a Romanov who attended the burial? Do any of you commenting actually know a Romanov who did not attended the burial? Do any of you actually know why HH Aleksei II Patriach of Moscow and All Russia objected to the burial?

My suggestion to anyone who comes upon this thread, simply disregard it as it is more disinformation than fact.

David[/size]
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 09, 2006, 01:34:00 AM
Quote
[size=14]
My suggestion to anyone who comes upon this thread, simply disregard it as it is more disinformation than fact.

David[/size]

And my suggestion is that you appear to be mistaken.

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 09, 2006, 01:36:44 AM
Quote
[size=14] Do any of you actually know why HH Aleksei II Patriach of Moscow and All Russia objected to the burial?

David[/size]

Yes I do.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 09, 2006, 01:45:22 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]

This is an excellent point and one worth pondering. Because, it is my understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is still influenced by, if not controlled by, the Communist party.


Lisa,

Perhaps now you can understand my point about M.V. and her son?

Don't you see how incompatible her public projections are when she is supported by and she herself mingles openely with the old communist faction?

What I was discussing on this particular thread with regard to MV was that she was in fact invited to the burial - clearly she was. Also, that according to the Fundamental Law, that the Vladimirovichi have the clearest claim to head the dynasty - which they do.

These are rather narrow questions which do not encompass many of the broader issues you raised. In terms of my own views on these broader issues, for whatever it's worth:

1. Since MV does not grant interviews, we have no way of knowing why she has chosen to align herself with the communist faction. My guess is that she would say if we asked her that she was following her religion when following Alexei, even with his communist affiliations.

2. I do not consider the Fundamental Law to be applicable after 1917. That does not mean that others might think differently, including MV.

3. I do consider the family feud to be unfortunate. However, it has a good chance of resolving if George does not marry or if he marries unequally.

I hope this clarifies my position. Perhaps we are not really so far apart in our opinions, Belochka?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 09, 2006, 02:00:52 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Since  M. V. and her immediate family side with the Moscow Patriarchate [Ref:Gazeta, 8 December, 2004]

by taking such a position, according to one of the Moscow R. O. Church representatives, Vsevolod Chaplin, they accept that church's position on the re-burial of the Imperial remains.

The Moscow Patriarchate released this declaration (in part):

[ch1056][ch1091][ch1089][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1055][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1072][ch1074][ch1085][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1079][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1078][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1086][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1095][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1091][ch1078][ch1076][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1072][ch1090][ch1088][ch1080][ch1073][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1090][ch1072][ch1082] [ch1085][ch1072][ch1079][ch1099][ch1074][ch1072][ch1077][ch1084][ch1099][ch1093] "[ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1073][ch1091][ch1088][ch1075][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1086][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074]".

"The Russian Orthodox Church refrains from final judgment regarding the characteristics of the so-called Ekaterinburg remains."

[Ref: Press Release of the (Moscow) Russian Orthodox Church - 7 December, 2004]

This is an excellent point and one worth pondering. Because, it is my understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is still influenced by, if not controlled by, the Communist party.


Lisa,

Perhaps now you can understand my point about M.V. and her son?

Don't you see how incompatible her public projections are when she is supported by and she herself mingles openely with the old communist faction?

What I was discussing on this particular thread with regard to MV was that she was in fact invited to the burial - clearly she was. Also, that according to the Fundamental Law, that the Vladimirovichi have the clearest claim to head the dynasty - which they do.

These are rather narrow questions which do not encompass many of the broader issues you raised. In terms of my own views on these broader issues, for whatever it's worth:

1. Since MV does not grant interviews, we have no way of knowing why she has chosen to align herself with the communist faction. My guess is that she would say if we asked her that she was following her religion when following Alexei, even with his communist affiliations.

2. I do not consider the Fundamental Law to be applicable after 1917. That does not mean that others might think differently, including MV.

3. I do consider the family feud to be unfortunate. However, it has a good chance of resolving if George does not marry or if he marries unequally.

I hope this clarifies my position. Perhaps we are not really so far apart in our opinions, Belochka?

It seems that we are very closely in concurrence on this issue Lisa.

Which ever partner George may select (if at all) - he will probably continue to mirror his mother's pretensions.
 :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 09, 2006, 04:26:48 PM
Lisa Davidson's statement: 1. Since MV does not grant interviews, we have no way of knowing why she has chosen to align herself with the communist faction. My guess is that she would say if we asked her that she was following her religion when following Alexei, even with his communist affiliations.
 
David Pritchard's response: 1. She does of course grant private audiences from time to time as well as communicate regularly with her staff in Russia. One should remember that HH Aleksei II is also a pre-revolutionary Russian noble holding the hereditary title of baron. That he, a man who was called to the priesthood, was born during the time of the Communist regime can hardly be held against him.

Lisa Davidson's statement: 2. I do not consider the Fundamental Law to be applicable after 1917. That does not mean that others might think differently, including MV.

David Pritchard's response: 2. It is accepted by most jurists of nobiliary law that the house laws of a formerly reigning dynasty remain in force and cannot be changed after the deposition of said house. It is accepted that the house laws may continue to be interpreted by the legal head of the house just as they were when the head of said house was reigning.

Lisa Davidson's statement: 3. I do consider the family feud to be unfortunate. However, it has a good chance of resolving if George does not marry or if he marries unequally.

David Pritchard's response: 3. There is no feud within the Imperial Family as it consists of only three members. There is however a long running animosity among some descendents of the Imperial House whose parents and/or grandparents failed to make approved and appropriate marriages that would have allowed them to remain dynasts according to the Fundamental Law of the Imperial House of Russia.

Lisa Davidson's statement: I hope this clarifies my position. Perhaps we are not really so far apart in our opinions, Belochka?

David Pritchard's response: I cannot speak for Belochka but I believe that we are far from being in agreement. If I remember correctly, we spoke by telephone over five years ago  and had a pleasant conversation, I would gladly tell you more about my stance and personal insight into this situation if you were to PM your telephone number to me.


David

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 09, 2006, 07:38:07 PM
David:

I am quite sure there are many points upon which we disagree. And I am equally sure there are many points upon which we shall agree. For instance, I am a great admirer of the Ilyinsky family and I believe you are as well?

The thing is, I find when I talk to nearly anyone about the Romanovs that's much the same situation - there are always points of agreement and disagreement. What holds it all together is mutual respect. I try to respect others as much as possible and find there are very few with whom I can't just agree to disagree when the time comes.

But, as you know, I'll never miss a chance to discuss my favorite family other than my own, so you have a PM from me with all my numbers.

Lisa
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: james_h on May 10, 2006, 04:35:41 AM

Hello  :)

I'm curious, I have an opinion which seems to differ from the majority. I believe** that the Russian Imperial Dynasty is extinct. Ironically having legislated themselves out of existance.

**  I agree with all the Pro Maria material that would invalidate R.F.A's claims. Yet I also agree with all the pro R.F.A material which would invalidate the Vladimirovichi claims......the only result that I can reconcile myself to believe is in absolutism........The Imperial House Is Extinct.
I suppose as an extention to that belief, Eastern Rome no longer has an Imperial House. No divinely sanctioned blood line to lead the orthodox nations into the future... oh whoas them.  ::)

I can go into much more detail if someone is interested as to why I believe what I do but that would require much more time than I have this evening.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: james_h on May 10, 2006, 04:48:35 AM
It's just occurred to me....my favourite form of government is an aristocratic republic. In such a state you have everything that makes a monarchy great but if incompetence sits on the throne, it's easier to remove them.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 10, 2006, 04:59:45 AM
Quote
Hello  :)

The Imperial House Is Extinct.

I agree with you 100%  :)

Quote
I suppose as an extention to that belief, Eastern Rome no longer has an Imperial House. No divinely sanctioned blood line to lead the orthodox nations into the future... oh whoas them.  ::)

I can go into much more detail if someone is interested as to why I believe what I do but that would require much more time than I have this evening.

I would welcome your views. Why not initiate a new thread as to why there is no Russian Monarchy?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 10, 2006, 11:38:41 AM
Quote
It's just occurred to me....my favourite form of government is an aristocratic republic. In such a state you have everything that makes a monarchy great but if incompetence sits on the throne, it's easier to remove them.

At present time only one such republic exists though it has been Socialised, the Serene Republic of San Marino.

David
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on May 10, 2006, 08:43:30 PM
As far as I can see, none of the claimants have a leg to stand on.  They are ALL products of morganic marriages.  And a morganic marriage rules them OUT.

Prince Nicholas, head of the Family, his father was Prince Roman, and his mother Countess Prascovia Cheremeteva.  Morganic marriage.  He at least does not call himself a Grand Duke.  This title only extends to the grandson of a Tsar.

G.D. Maria Vlad. Morganic marriages galore.Ducky and Kyrill.  Then  G.D. Vlad to Leonida.  And then her own to a Prussian.

The Ilyinsky line also has morganic marriages.  G. D. Dmitre to Audrey Emery.

I rest my case.

Signed   HRH

Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 11, 2006, 12:28:14 AM
Quote
As far as I can see, none of the claimants have a leg to stand on.  They are ALL products of morganic marriages.  And a morganic marriage rules them OUT.

Prince Nicholas, head of the Family, his father was Prince Roman, and his mother Countess Prascovia Cheremeteva.  Morganic marriage.  He at least does not call himself a Grand Duke.  This title only extends to the grandson of a Tsar.

G.D. Maria Vlad. Morganic marriages galore.Ducky and Kyrill.  Then  G.D. Vlad to Leonida.  And then her own to a Prussian.

The Ilyinsky line also has morganic marriages.  G. D. Dmitre to Audrey Emery.

I rest my case.

Signed   HRH


With due respect, I think you have a case of over-generalization.

There is no question about Roman Petrovich's marriage being morganatic. Or a question about Dmitri Pavlovich's. Clearly morganatic.

Nicholas II recognized Kirill's marriage as equal. Are you disputing his considering the Tsar Liberator's and QV's granddaughter as equal? Kindly cite a source superior to the Tsar in 1909.

Maria V. married a member of the Prussian Imperial house. This house also provided the bride for Nicholas I, whose marriage was considered equal by his brother, Tsar Alexander I. Kindly cite a source superior to Alexander I.

I am less certain about Leonida. Certainly as head of the Imperial house, Vladimir was within his authority to consider her to be equal, but I will leave this matter to legal scholars.

But, please, let's not overgeneralize.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Maximilian on May 11, 2006, 06:19:02 AM
Quote
My suggestion to anyone who comes upon this thread, simply disregard it as it is more disinformation than fact.

Dear David,


With all my respect, just because you don’t agree with our opinion that doesn’t give you the right to regard all of us as Disinformaded people. That is not nice. This is a public board.

Quote
I am less certain about Leonida. Certainly as head of the Imperial house, Vladimir was within his authority to consider her to be equal, but I will leave this matter to legal scholars.

I have a doubt here. Tsar Alexander II, he respects the rules of the house and when he married secondly and he regards his second marriage as morganatic. He could validate his marriage saying that he was the emperor himself and he could within his authority consider his marriage as equal, but he didn’t, he respects the family rules.
Why Vladimir a mere pretender could stand above the family laws?  
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on May 15, 2006, 01:52:23 AM
Dear Lisa,

Grand Duke Vladimir married Leonida in 1948.  Maria born 1953. Neither the  Russia or Prussian were ruling houses   at that time.

Salic Law  was used by Russia.   If any other laws come into play, WHY was there so much concern  about one unhealthy son, when there were 4 healthy daughters. Nickys and Alixs? who could have succeeded?

Signed HRH







Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 17, 2006, 09:37:47 PM
Quote
Dear Lisa,

Grand Duke Vladimir married Leonida in 1948.  Maria born 1953. Neither the  Russia or Prussian were ruling houses   at that time.

Salic Law  was used by Russia.   If any other laws come into play, WHY was there so much concern  about one unhealthy son, when there were 4 healthy daughters. Nickys and Alixs? who could have succeeded?

Signed HRH

Dear HRH:

Being a ruling house was not always a primary consideration with regard to equal marriage. Maria Nicholievna married someone who was not part of a ruling house and her father approved the mariage.

Russia did not have a Salic Law system. This is a myth and I wish you would not perpetuate it. If you read the Fundamental Law, they had a semi-Salic succession system. This means that upon the extinction of the male line, inheritance could pass through the female line.

The reason Nicholas and Alexandra had concern about Alexei was complex. However, it is entirely true that they preferred their own descendants to inherit as opposed to those of Michael or Vladimir. This does not mean that Russia had a Salic Law system!

Lisa







Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 17, 2006, 10:06:45 PM
Quote
Quote
I have a doubt here. Tsar Alexander II, he respects the rules of the house and when he married secondly and he regards his second marriage as morganatic. He could validate his marriage saying that he was the emperor himself and he could within his authority consider his marriage as equal, but he didn’t, he respects the family rules.Why Vladimir a mere pretender could stand above the family laws?  

Maximilian,

Emperor Aleksander II was planning to raise his second wife Princess Dolgorukova and their children the Prince and Princesses Yurievsky to the dignity of Empress, Grand Duke and Grand Duchesses. His untimely death terminated his wish to the great relief of his children from his first marriage who against another woman becomming the empress and oppossed their half-brother and half-sisters in gaining equal dynastic status.

So you now know that  the choice of Grand Duke Vladimir was not unthought of amongst previous heads of the family.

David
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: joye on May 17, 2006, 10:15:07 PM
Dear Lisa,

Being of a ruling house, IS important when you are talking about the succession.

Signed  HRH
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 17, 2006, 10:28:50 PM
Quote
Emperor Aleksander II was planning to raise his second wife Princess Dolgorukova and their children the Prince and Princesses Yurievsky to the dignity of Empress, Grand Duke and Grand Duchesses. His untimely death terminated his wish to the great relief of his children from his first marriage who against another woman becomming the empress and oppossed their half-brother and half-sisters in gaining equal dynastic status.

So you now know that  the choice of Grand Duke Vladimir was not unthought of amongst previous heads of the family.

David

Keeping in mind that at the time Alexander II was the reigning Emperor of Imperial Russia and having the legitimate legal capacity to do so, he would have proclaimed his Will into Law had he lived.


Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Maximilian on May 18, 2006, 10:34:05 AM
Quote
Emperor Aleksander II was planning to raise his second wife Princess Dolgorukova and their children the Prince and Princesses Yurievsky to the dignity of Empress, Grand Duke and Grand Duchesses. His untimely death terminated his wish to the great relief of his children from his first marriage who against another woman becomming the empress and oppossed their half-brother and half-sisters in gaining equal dynastic status

What a sad story, I always liked Princess Dolgorukova, I find her a victim of the circumstances she have to live trough. Is a very sad story Emperor Alexander didn’t raise her as Empress. I remember her daughter Princess Catherine Yurievsky who ends begging for food in the streets of Nice, and nobody believes she was the daughter of an Emperor.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 18, 2006, 04:09:06 PM
Quote
Dear Lisa,

Being of a ruling house, IS important when you are talking about the succession.

Signed  HRH

With respect, the Fundamental Law was interpreted quite loosely by several rulers. The succession itself only required that one be the next heir in line.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: JonC on May 18, 2006, 09:04:08 PM
Belochka, concerning successsion as per the Pauline laws you say that if there are no male heirs then the next female would inherit the throne, right?

What about   1) a son or grandson of say.. the last female?

                   2) an elder daughter of the last female where there are younger sons. Would the throne go to the sons or does the daughter have the right since her mother received the title.

By the way, you asked on a previous thread who was out there who could receive the crown on his head well, I know of someone but I can't mention his name on this website. His grandparents and parents were married with equal standing.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 18, 2006, 09:22:39 PM
Quote
Belochka, concerning successsion as per the Pauline laws you say that if there are no male heirs then the next female would inherit the throne, right?

What about   1) a son or grandson of say.. the last female?

                   2) an elder daughter of the last female where there are younger sons. Would the throne go to the sons or does the daughter have the right since her mother received the title.

By the way, you asked on a previous thread who was out there who could receive the crown on his head well, I know of someone but I can't mention his name on this website. His grandparents and parents were married with equal standing.

[size=14]The law was that when there were no longer any male dynasts, then the eldest daughter of the last male dynast would become the head of the Imperial House. I believe that we (those of us who understand the legal requirements of the Fundamental Law) can all agree that Vladimir Kyrilovich was the last male dynast.

David[/size]
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: JonC on May 18, 2006, 09:49:49 PM
David, with all due respect Kyril, even though a Grand Duke, he and his clan don't cut the mustard for all the reasons mentioned throughout discussions on this forum. I'm going to PM you so that you can find out ( since I can't mention his name on this forum ) exactly who is the latest in line to the Throne!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 18, 2006, 10:16:48 PM
Quote
David, with all due respect Kyril, even though a Grand Duke, he and his clan don't cut the mustard for all the reasons mentioned throughout discussions on this forum. I'm going to PM you so that you can find out ( since I can't mention his name on this forum ) exactly who is the latest in line to the Throne!

Perhaps you can PM me as well on the same matter JonC?

Thanks in anticipation
 :)
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 18, 2006, 10:41:12 PM
Quote
Quote
David, with all due respect Kyril, even though a Grand Duke, he and his clan don't cut the mustard for all the reasons mentioned throughout discussions on this forum. I'm going to PM you so that you can find out ( since I can't mention his name on this forum ) exactly who is the latest in line to the Throne!

Perhaps you can PM me as well on the same matter JonC?

Thanks in anticipation
 :)


[ch1041][ch1077][ch1083][ch1086][ch1095][ch1082][ch1072],

I read JonC.'s pm. His proposition is absolutely absurd! Another survivor story.

David
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Belochka on May 18, 2006, 11:25:52 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
David, with all due respect Kyril, even though a Grand Duke, he and his clan don't cut the mustard for all the reasons mentioned throughout discussions on this forum. I'm going to PM you so that you can find out ( since I can't mention his name on this forum ) exactly who is the latest in line to the Throne!

Perhaps you can PM me as well on the same matter JonC?

Thanks in anticipation
 :)


[ch1041][ch1077][ch1083][ch1086][ch1095][ch1082][ch1072],

I read JonC.'s pm. His proposition is absolutely absurd! Another survivor story.

David

Oh Dear!!!!!!!!!!  I was not expecting that.

[ch1057][ch1087][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1073][ch1086] [ch1044][ch1072][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076]
(Thank you David)

[ch1052][ch1072][ch1088][ch1075][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1090][ch1072]
[/font]    :o
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: JonC on May 19, 2006, 10:43:43 PM
Belochka,

My point is that if David can say with all conviction that Maria V. is legitimate and barring the obvious about Maria V. then it is plausible for one to believe in the information I sent him. Why not?

I do believe in the info I sent him. Everything I've checked up on about the 'survivors' there checks out.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 19, 2006, 11:38:21 PM
Jon C, I will only say this once - discussion of survivors belongs on the survivors thread. Period, end of story.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: JonC on May 20, 2006, 07:05:55 PM
Lisa as you can see from my posts I clearly had no intention of bringing 'survivor' issues on this thread that is why I carefully deflected the issue to pm David instead.

He on the other hand decided to belittle the information by commenting openly on this thread upon the info I had sent him. He is the one who should also be warned. I responded in kind. JonC.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Rodney_G. on October 03, 2006, 05:34:10 PM

  I'm using this subject to differentiate my question from the earlier IF thread. My interest in the IF came well after 1998 .I regret not being aware of them as I would really like to have seen current TV or any other film footage. Right now I'm looking on the web for any TV or other possible personal videos of July16-17, 1998 , so far without luck.
 
  So: Did any of you see the IF burial at that time?  Or, can anyone give me links or other tips to find it?

   Or, best of all, could the AP website find some film of the event and put it on the Romanov Films and Music section?
   I wouldn't think it would be too difficult or expensive.  Any chance, Bob?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 03, 2006, 07:12:09 PM
Hey Rodney,
You know what's frustrating? I know there is a website out there with videoclips of the entire service as well as explainations of what is going on in the video.
The problem is, I didn't bookmark it! *:-[*
I'll try to find it and post the link here.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rgt9w on October 04, 2006, 04:30:48 PM
Rodney,

I sent you an instant message regarding your question.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 12, 2006, 04:05:38 PM
With the prompting of Rodney, I found the link to the page with the film footage.
Hope you all can take a peak at it, it's amazing

Burial of Nicholas II and Family (http://imperator.spbnews.ru/video/index_e.phtml) - When you get to the bottom of the page, click "next" for more video coverage. It truly is an amazing site!
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Taren on October 13, 2006, 08:20:26 PM
Those clips were certainly interesting. I love that one clip says something like "Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova -Nicholas II's closest relative". They couldn't have just said his wife? I was struck though by the size of the Tsarina's coffin. Unless the camera angles were just funny, it looked like the coffin was only about two feet long. I know there was no actual body to bury, but were the bones just thrown in there? Also, since two bodies are missing and they don't know the identity of one, are the grand duchesses' tombs labelled with their names -even though they can't be certain which one isn't there? Or, though they aren't there, are there places for Alexei and the missing grand duchess as well?
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: rgt9w on October 17, 2006, 08:02:05 PM
I have read that the coffins were smaller than a standard one. This evident when you see the clips of only four persons carrying the coffins. Space was left in the crypt for the missing children if they are ever found.
Title: Re: Martyrdom, Sainthood. Reburial and Commemoration of IF
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 14, 2013, 12:52:23 PM
(I realize that this topic has not been discussed lately, but while browsing the Forum during the past year, I saw that this question came up many times in different threads.
I actually wrote this some time ago, but am only now getting around to posting it. I. N.)


Concerning the Imperial Family and Their Servants as Martyrs and Saints


The aim of this piece is not to open a whole polemic on the pros and cons of glorifying
the members of the Imperial family as martyrs. Rather, it is an attempt to help those who
are puzzled by the Church’s decision — especially those who are not Orthodox Chris-
tians — to understand some of the many other aspects of this complex question.

(For some reason the link below no longer opens this posting, so I give the text itself here. I. N.)

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10189.msg284688#msg284688
"It's always irritated me that the others who died with the Romanov's never get
mentioned half the time.  They were very loyal servants to the Czar and deserve
better recognition.  I was even watching a documentary a couple months ago
and I was like, 'Where are the others who got killed too?' It was just the family
with no mention of everyone else.  Okay, done with my rant.  What do you all
think?"

*****************************************

Taking occasion from the above quote, I would like to comment upon some of the state-
ments made, or questions posed, concerning this topic in various threads on this forum.

To begin with, I would like to address the issue of the glorification (canonization, if you
will) of the New Martyrs of Russia in general (including the Imperial family), and then
the question of the recognition of the suite and servants as saints, in particular.

Since my commentary on this topic will, inevitably, exceed the limits of one posting on
the forum, I will simply put a link to this article (which will be hosted elsewhere) in the
pertinent threads, rather than have the text spill over into several consecutive windows
here.

http://www.saintannas.com/Archived_Docs_HTM/PostingOnGlorificationOfNewMartyrs.pdf