Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Prince_Christopher on June 03, 2005, 09:00:16 PM

Title: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 03, 2005, 09:00:16 PM
Does anyone know if the Grand Duchess Leonida, wife of Grand Duke Vladimir (son of Kyril and Ducky), is still living? If not, where is she buried? Also, I know that her first husband, an American by the name of Mr. Kirby, died in a concentration camp during WWII. What were the circumstances surrounding this? Did she have children by her first marriage and if so, what became of them?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Svetabel on June 04, 2005, 02:23:54 AM
GDss Leonida is still living.She has a daughter, Helen,by her 1st husband Sumner Moore Kirby.

Mr.Kirby was arrested by Nazis as an American citizen and he died in a concentration camp.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michelle on June 04, 2005, 03:43:57 PM
Goodness!  Why was he arrested? ???  

Btw, Svetabel, who is that in your avatar?  I've been wondering for a while. ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Svetabel on June 05, 2005, 04:15:43 AM
Quote
Goodness!  Why was he arrested? ???  

Btw, Svetabel, who is that in your avatar?  I've been wondering for a while. ;D


He was arrested becouse he was an American - it was enough for Nazis.

As for my avatar - it's Baby Bee aka Princess Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg, younger sister of Queen Marie of Romania. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michelle on June 06, 2005, 09:47:15 PM
Oh okay! Thanks. :)

That's terrible about the American.  I didn't know the Nazis put Americans in concentration camps just for the fact that they were Americans. :P
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 22, 2005, 11:13:30 PM
Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia with His Holiness Alexei II, Patriarch of Moscow and all of Russia.

(http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9603/gdmariawithpatriarch6kz.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: dianoshka on July 23, 2005, 02:10:01 AM
IMO, she doesn't look like royalty at all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 23, 2005, 02:30:11 AM
Thank you again, David. Pictures of HIH the Grand Duchess are rare, at least it seems that way. I know she shows up in some of the Orthodox magazines, but she is just not a "Majesty" royal I guess.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 23, 2005, 05:47:41 AM
Is she charismatic? Her son, who is also a bit...let's say, pudgy, doesn't seem too charismatic. Isn't he doing the military in Russia or something? Does anyone have any information on him as well as his mother, and also on his father, former Prussian Prince Michael Pavlovich....? I've heard he went back to his original name and title after their divorce, but he even changed religion to marry Maria... can anyone forward any more info please? Is she fluent in Russian? I know she must be fluent in Spanish since she' always lived (born) in Spain.... what about George?  By the bye, does she still live here in Spain? More pics?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 23, 2005, 01:39:59 PM
Quote
IMO, she doesn't look like royalty at all.


Well Dianoshka, my first response to your comment is, how many royals do you know?

I found the Grand Duchess to have quite a commanding presence.

Her English is very formal and percise rather like that of Queen Elizabeth. I do know that the Grand Duchess speaks English, French, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish.

Her son Grand Duke George is now working in Brussels in the field of economics.

DAP
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 23, 2005, 01:50:47 PM
It would be nice to have a recent picture of the Grand Duke posted as well. I notice that Arturo's ERHJ has a black & white one in the latest issue.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: lexi4 on July 23, 2005, 01:55:11 PM
Quote
IMO, she doesn't look like royalty at all.


And just what is royaity supposed to look like????
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: dianoshka on July 23, 2005, 04:48:37 PM
Quote

Well Dianoshka, my first response to your comment is, how many royals do you know?

I found the Grand Duchess to have quite a commanding presence.

Her English is very formal and percise rather like that of Queen Elizabeth. I do know that the Grand Duchess speaks English, French, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish.

Her son Grand Duke George is now working in Brussels in the field of economics.

DAP


No, I've never met her, but IMO, based on the two pictures shown here, she doesn't look very regal. I was referring to her choice of clothing.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 23, 2005, 04:54:29 PM
I was quite surprized that the dress in the second photograph became so vibrant. It must have been the flash on the camera because it was not so lively in person. The bright flash made her face rather pale, this is not how she looks in person. She does after all live in sunny Madrid.

DAP
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 23, 2005, 07:08:18 PM
the Grand Duchess doesn't look like a Romanov girl, She got her Mother's looks.

I have seen pics of the Grand Duchess when she married her x-husband. she's pretty, but not as pretty as the other Romanov women (like Tatiana, Irina, Elena, etc..)

Not to be mean But...
Her dress looks like it from the 70s. She wearing two MUCH eye makeup.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2005, 09:44:28 AM
She doesn't look very regal at all, and seems more like a tabloid story person. Her son, George, is not 'pudgy' anymore, he has grown up and looks more handsome. However, I do not accept their claim to the throne, and would not want to see any member of the Vladimirovichi rule Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 25, 2005, 07:46:02 AM
I've seen a photo of her in a Hello!-style magazine which I have at home when she was very young (about 16) and was thin and incredibly beautiful to my judgement.. She wears a plae blue dress and wears one fo those odd tiara things we've seen the Grand Duchesses wearing with their formal dresses, and has band (presumably of the Order of St George, I don't know) coming down from her choulder. She wears very few jewels and believe me she looks quite your average royal princess¨! I agree she isn't as regal now, but I think it's because she's slightly chubby (I'm being kind, c'mon...) but when she goes to official ceremonies she always wears clothes inspired in her family's native Russia (i.e., very colourful with bright patterns.). I'll see if I can post a photo of her :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 25, 2005, 07:47:50 AM
(http://maria&duarte)

I hope it shows. It's Grand Duchess Maria with her distant relative the Duke of Braganza. If it doens't work, try this page:

http://www.casaaltaroyallodge.com/imagens/g2.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 25, 2005, 07:51:09 AM
http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/inner/387/MariaR1976.jpg
On her wedding day with her now ex-husband.

http://www.casaaltaroyallodge.com/imagens/g1.jpg
By herself.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 25, 2005, 07:53:59 AM
What's GD Maria's relationship with her half-sister Elena Kirby like? What info can you offer about the Kirby's before Leonida's marriage to Vladimir?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2005, 09:45:44 AM
I could not open the wedding picture, and that is just what I have been looking for !
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 25, 2005, 10:38:56 AM
Quote
http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/inner/387/MariaR1976.jpg
On her wedding day with her now ex-husband.

http://www.casaaltaroyallodge.com/imagens/g1.jpg
By herself.



The first picture is of HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna wearing the miniature of the Grand Cross of the Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing, next to HIH is Dr Carlos Evaristo, Dom Duarte's Vice Chancellor, and then on the right HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganca.

The second picture is of HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna standing in front of the Chapel that adjoins Casa Alta, the former home of Catherine of Braganza, Queen of England, within the walls of Castelo da Ourem.

DAP
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: jackie3 on July 27, 2005, 06:00:58 PM
Quote
I could not open the wedding picture, and that is just what I have been looking for !


I think it doesn't allow for outside linking. Copy and paste the link, instead of clicking it,  and it should work. It did for me.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: nerdycool on July 28, 2005, 05:14:41 PM
Quote

I think it doesn't allow for outside linking. Copy and paste the link, instead of clicking it,  and it should work. It did for me.

Nope that didn't work for me either.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2005, 05:34:43 PM
I still cannot open it- also.
As for  GD Maria's styles & Title- she has them by virtue of her father and grandfather being Head of the Imperial House, therefore inheritor. AFAIK, no other Romanov is entitled to these except her son, who also would be  HIH & GD. This is the legitimist view, those with particular emotional issues would tend to feel differently.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 28, 2005, 06:25:33 PM
She is not elegant...Not elegant at all. This is "royal" for me. She must have been fat and royal, ugly and royal...But she looks rough and he wear awful clothes.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2005, 06:34:13 PM
That is rather superficial judgement. To be expected I suppose.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: nerdycool on July 28, 2005, 06:51:37 PM
Here's a wedding photo. I don't know if it's the same one as above and it's the only one I was able to find. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/nerdycool/MariaR1976.jpg)

How are two pictures able to exude elegance or the lack of? Not everyone is photogenic, though it's usually assumed that royalty always are. The second one, she's in her home so it's natural for her to dress comfortably as she wants. I guarantee people would say the same things about me if they saw what I wore at home.

Until I meet GD Maria Vladimorovna for myself, I will reserve my judgments and take those of who have also not met her with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Arleen on July 28, 2005, 06:54:01 PM
Thank you for posting the photographs....I finally got the wedding one open.  She was very beautiful on that day but you could tell she would gain weight.  By the way her husband DOES look royal.  Does anyone know why they divorced?

I think that she looks very Russian, put a scarf on her head and she would look like an ordinary housewife.  I don't want to sound mean, because I do feel sorry for her, her great weight is very distracting and UNregal.

But I have to agree with Annie, I would never want her to come to power in Russia...even if this were possible, because of the Vladimir branch.  They are not fit to be the ruling faction because of the way Valdimir tryed to userp the throne and betrayed the Tsar in the last days.

Just my humble opinion.
Arleen
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2005, 07:22:47 PM
Since when are royals supposed to be  such thin creatures ? The  [dead] QM was on the FAT side as well.  One of the most popular members of the British royal family was "FAT Mary Cambridge" mother of STOUT Queen Mary. Queen Victoria herself was a little porker. Not everyone waltzes off the airbrushed pages of MAJESTY wearing designer clothes just for those who would judge them on their looks.
It is interesting that this sort of subject is taboo on other threads, yet accepted here.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Arleen on July 28, 2005, 07:37:37 PM
You are so right Robert...as I was writing I was waiting for the ax to fall on my head.  

Bless her heart, Maria just doesn't seem to fit in as it were....or is it something else and I just attributed it to overweight?  She just does not seem Royal....and I know as I write that it is a STUPID premiss and totally shallow....but the feelings are there anyway.  Maybe the way she dresses is part of it.....none of the REGAL little coats, suits and by all means HATS of the Brit crowd.  

I think that she has a beautiful face.  But then again it has no stark regal cheekbones, etc.  Are we programmed as to what REGAL is????
Maybe that is what is wrong with me.  I have nothing against fat people in general at all....most of America is now FAT!

..Arleen
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2005, 07:48:00 PM
Thank you, Arleen. As Nerdycool so appropriately pointed out, the GD was at home, with her dog    heaven's sake. Not likely  dressed up for a reception at the Winter Palace.
I have not met the woman, but I do know of her generosity and good works in Russia. She is very active with her Church and has a kind nature. This is far more "royal" than some silly obsession of "looking" royal, it is "being" royal.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Arleen on July 28, 2005, 07:55:43 PM
Thanks Robert, I am much pleased that she is a lovely and giving person.  Sort of makes up for her Grandfather in my estimation.  I hope that her son will be exactly like she is.....he is very good looking in the last pictures I've seen of him, and HE even looks regal to me.

..Arleen
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: jackie3 on July 28, 2005, 11:17:45 PM
I think it was in The Romanovs: The Final Chapter by Robert Massie that Massie writes that like her father before her (Vladimir) even those who don't agree with her claims to the throne (presumably the other Romanovs, because by the House Laws the claim is indeed hers) find GD Maria a very likable person herself.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 28, 2005, 11:30:54 PM
It took me a few weeks to decide if I should post a few of the pictures of the Grand Duchess. I was afraid that some members of this forum would not be as courteous as they should be. My misgivings certainly were proven to be credible. It is very unfortunate for those members of the forum who are fully acquainted with good manners and breeding because I have many more photographs of the Grand Duchess and many of her son which I am sure that they would like to see. I will not subject the Grand Duchess and her son to more disparaging comments from the groundlings.

I will write however, that I am very glad that I did not post any photographs of myself with the Grand Duchess or other Romanovs because it would only inspire an idiotic comment such as: "He's too fat to be a true scholar of Russian History."

One of my greatest complaints about a forum like this one is that very few of the members are held accountable for their less than intelligent comments. By posting under anonymous names, they are free to insult and be generally vulgar without their comments reflecting upon them in real life.

David Ashley Pritchard

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RickV on July 29, 2005, 12:04:18 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is her relationship to the Russian royal family? I believe that's a portrait of Alexander II she is photographed with, so I assume he is a (great) grandfather of hers.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 29, 2005, 12:12:31 AM
Emperor Aleksander II Nikolaievich
Great Great Grandfather

Grand Duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich
Great Grandfather

Grand Duke Kyril Vladimirovich
Grandfather

Grand Duke Vladimir Kyrilovich
Father

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RickV on July 29, 2005, 10:42:19 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 29, 2005, 05:39:03 PM
Very well said, David.

Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: TJ Jones on July 31, 2005, 02:14:28 PM
She looks very Spanish or maybe more Latin American....IMO the Romanov she resembles most would be Catherine I. I was told that the Grand Duchess was recieved by President Putin were there any pictures taken of the event?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Svetabel on July 31, 2005, 02:42:46 PM
Quote

I think that she looks very Russian
Arleen


IMHO she looks more like a Georgian, like her mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: cimbrio on July 31, 2005, 04:01:46 PM
Quote
She looks very Spanish or maybe more Latin American....IMO the Romanov she resembles most would be Catherine I. I was told that the Grand Duchess was recieved by President Putin were there any pictures taken of the event?



I've read she looks like her mum's family and not too much like the Romanov side (plus Catherine I is too far away to be compared with her physically, plus there's no photos of Cathgerine, just paintings, but still... Maria cannot "look" Spanish since she has no Spanish blood (well, she does but very distant evidently), but I know what you mean :) Here is a thread to see a photo of her mum:

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=es;m=IMH;d=1039950111;i=91095;k=/leonida.0.bagration_moukhrani

Here is one of her cousin Maria de la Paz Bragation-Moukhransky y Wittelsbach (daughter of Irakli and Fernando of Bavaria and his Spanish wife, Teresa de Borbón, sister of Alfonso XIII)

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=es;m=IMH;d=1039900194;i=209040;k=/maria_de_la_paz.0.bagration_moukhransky

If you follow the following thread you'll see the blood connection between Vladimir Kyrillovich and Leonida of Georgia (yes, even they were related!):

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=es;m=RL;i=93563;l1=23;i1=91095;l2=22;i2=42981

I hope you find it interesting, though it's just one of the linesyou can find to see how they're related. Regards

Cimbrio
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: José on January 25, 2006, 12:55:28 PM
Are there any photos oy young Maria Vladimirovna, when she was not so   ::)  robuste ?

How was she prepared for her future role ?
What did she studied ? Did she go to University ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marlene on January 25, 2006, 01:17:15 PM


She was certainly not nearly as Rubenesque when she married - and she was thin as a teenager.  
Quote
Are there any photos oy young Maria Vladimirovna, when she was not so   ::)  robuste ?

How was she prepared for her future role ?
What did she studied ? Did she go to University ?

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: José on January 26, 2006, 05:03:21 PM
Quote

She was certainly not nearly as Rubenesque when she married - and she was thin as a teenager.  


I know that !
That's why I asked.
What about her studies ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: imperial angel on January 27, 2006, 10:43:44 AM
I have never seen a photo of her as a teenager, but would like to.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on January 27, 2006, 07:07:05 PM
I know this is going to sound stupid to some of you, but I'm not as familiar with branches of the IF beyond the family of A III and N II. Who exactly was Maria Vladimirovna? Was she a daughter of GD Vladimir and 'Miechen'?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: grandduchessella on January 27, 2006, 11:01:09 PM
she's the granddaughter of Cyril & Ducky

Vladimir & Miechen--Cyril & Ducky--Vladimir & Leonida--Marie Vladimirovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on January 30, 2006, 01:32:33 PM
 :-[Oh god! Yes, of course. Silly of me. I assumed we were talking about someone from their time...lol. She's the one who is claiming the right as pretender to the throne, right?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: imperial angel on February 01, 2006, 08:52:57 AM
So can anyone post one of those photos.. I am waiting.. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2006, 06:41:29 AM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/MarVlad2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2006, 06:42:09 AM
Very,very small portrait of Maria when she was younger...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2006, 06:42:33 AM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/portrait4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2006, 06:43:18 AM
And one photo more recently...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Prince_Christopher on February 15, 2006, 07:06:42 AM
(http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1734/mariar19766nx.jpg)

Here is Maria Vladimirovna at her wedding to Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: imperial angel on February 15, 2006, 08:25:40 AM
Thanks the first one is really nice!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 15, 2006, 09:08:56 AM
HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna does have her own website: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/  Only the Russian language version of the site is currently functioning.

David
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: imperial angel on February 15, 2006, 10:23:33 AM
Nice site! Too bad I can't read Russian. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: russianlover76 on May 15, 2006, 10:39:10 PM
Does anyone have a wedding picture of Maria Vladimirovna? ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Tania+ on May 16, 2006, 02:44:11 PM
I have to agree. It would be nice if it were available in other languages for those unable to read Russian.

Tatiana+


Quote
Nice site! Too bad I can't read Russian. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 25, 2007, 10:38:11 AM
Here are some pictures of Maria with her parents and Franz Wilhelm taken in 1976 prior to the marriage
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4574/mariaff1976rh3.th.jpg)(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6666/preseeger00040380tm3.th.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaff1976rh3.jpg)(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/866/preseeger00038722pb4.th.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=preseeger00038722pb4.jpg)

Source: Seeger-Press
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 25, 2007, 10:45:02 AM
And some from the couple's religious wedding in Madrid
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5821/mariawladimirovnasweddifo8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9794/swedding1976qu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3851/weddingofmariav1976fd1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 25, 2007, 10:49:12 AM
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4048/mariawithinfantgeorgiylr2.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 25, 2007, 10:58:53 AM
At the funeral of her father with GDss Leonida and GD Georgiy
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3483/imperialfamilyatthefunebq2.th.jpg) (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imperialfamilyatthefunebq2.jpg)(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9699/imperialfamilyatthefunejo7.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imperialfamilyatthefunejo7.jpg)(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/838/mariaandgeorgeatthefunedg7.th.jpg) (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaandgeorgeatthefunedg7.jpg)(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7153/mariaatherfathersfunerawf2.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaatherfathersfunerawf2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Aleksasha on February 26, 2007, 03:37:14 AM
Dear Benjamin, thank you for the link! What a beautiful photo with the the Grand Duchess and little Gheorghi Mihailovici. What noble and beutiful is the GD in her grief
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 31, 2007, 12:44:22 PM
I'm glad that you liked the pictures, Aleksasha.

Here are some more of the Grand Duchess at various royal events:
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9012/mariawithdomduarteatthexq6.th.jpg) (http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariawithdomduarteatthexq6.jpg)
H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria with H.R.H. The Duke of Braganza at the 1993 wedding of H.R.H. Duke Friedrich of Württemberg and H.S.H. Princess Marie zu Wied

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1858/mariaandleonidaatthemardk7.th.jpg) (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaandleonidaatthemardk7.jpg)
T.I.H. Grand Duchesses Maria and Leonida at the 1997 wedding of H.R.H. Infanta Cristina of Spain and Iñaki Urdangarin Liebert

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8264/mariaandgeorgeatthe90thfl4.th.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaandgeorgeatthe90thfl4.jpg)
T.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke Georgiy at the 90th birthday celebrations of H.R.H. The Count of Paris

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6631/mariaandgeorgeatthefunevy8.th.jpg) (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaandgeorgeatthefunevy8.jpg)
T.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke Georgiy at the funeral of H.R.H. The Countess of Barcelona

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4453/mariaattheweddingofthepog5.th.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaattheweddingofthepog5.jpg)
H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria at the 2004 wedding of H.R.H. The Prince of the Asturias and Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano

Sources: Seeger-Press and Corbis
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on March 31, 2007, 01:39:48 PM
Ooo when was the last time they visited Russia? Do they have a huge group of supporters there?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 31, 2007, 07:51:53 PM
Maria Vladimirovna's last visit to Russia occured from December 14-20, 2006. She had already traveled there several times earlier that year. Of course, she was also in Russia for the reburial of Empress Maria Feodorovna in September of that year.

George Mikhailovich's most recent trip to Russia was during September 2006. He attended a Russian Orthodox ceremony with H.H. Patriarch Alexis II.

In the meantime they may have been to Russia, but this was the most recent information that I could find on the Imperial House's website.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on March 31, 2007, 08:52:01 PM
And yet despite all of M. V.'s rhetoric in the past she still prefers to live outside of Russia as does her son.

Margarita  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 31, 2007, 09:50:11 PM
Dear Margarita,
Just curious, but has Maria Vladimirovna ever stated that she was going to move to Russia? I wasn't under the impression that she had ever said she was going to relocate there.

Following is an excerpt from an interview that Maria gave on 12 Dec 2005 to Itogi
Quote
Q: The question many people are asking today is: why do members of the Russian Imperial House live outside Russia? Have the Romanovs not yet forgiven Russia for their exile? Or is it that life is more comfortable abroad?
A: Let me begin with the fact that it was not Russia that exiled us, but the political regime that came to power by means of a coup. To those who debate the comfort of our exile I could suggest that they try it themselves, but I would not wish such a fate on them. If I were a private person, guided only by my own wants and desires, I could have returned to the Motherland at any time. But as the Head of the Russian Imperial House, I am duty-bound to preserve its dignity. If that dignity were to be lost, then what service could we ever hope to offer Russia? Therefore, before we return home permanently, it is necessary that the state determine its relationship to our dynasty.

And here is an excerpt from an interview that George gave on 26 Oct 2006 to Komsomol’skaia pravda
Quote
Q: What are the conditions under which you would return to your historical Motherland to live permanently?
A: There are no special conditions that have been set. The only thing that I hope is that our current government will formalize its own relationship to the Imperial House as a historical institution. Practically in every country, including former communist ones, this has already taken place. For ruling dynasties, there has been created minimal conditions for their return and for their modest but livable conditions in their Homelands. And this has in no way shaken the new Constitutional orders of these states. Quite the contrary: the Heads and Members of these Royal Families have actively been included in the process of the rebirth of the foundations of the state and society. I am certain that Russia will not be an exception to this general trend.


Here is the itinerary of the Grand Duchess's last visit: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastynews/news/2006/695.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on March 31, 2007, 11:07:46 PM
Dear Margarita,
Just curious, but has Maria Vladimirovna ever stated that she was going to move to Russia? I wasn't under the impression that she had ever said she was going to relocate there.

Following is an excerpt from an interview that Maria gave on 12 Dec 2005 to Itogi
Quote
Q: The question many people are asking today is: why do members of the Russian Imperial House live outside Russia? Have the Romanovs not yet forgiven Russia for their exile? Or is it that life is more comfortable abroad?
A: Let me begin with the fact that it was not Russia that exiled us, but the political regime that came to power by means of a coup. To those who debate the comfort of our exile I could suggest that they try it themselves, but I would not wish such a fate on them. If I were a private person, guided only by my own wants and desires, I could have returned to the Motherland at any time. But as the Head of the Russian Imperial House, I am duty-bound to preserve its dignity. If that dignity were to be lost, then what service could we ever hope to offer Russia? Therefore, before we return home permanently, it is necessary that the state determine its relationship to our dynasty.

Hi Benjamin,

The implication that she contemplates the eventuality of residing in Russia are in the quote you have offered.

In M. V.'s carefully worded statement she can not know really appreciate what it is to live in exile when she was born and raised in another country.

She is therefore unable to return "home" permanently. Her home has always been in Spain.

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 01, 2007, 01:59:52 AM
Thank you for the information, Benjamin.
I would have to agree though, that she can not know how living in exile is because she wasn't even born during the revolution. She didn't flee for her life, or saw her loved ones getting arrested and humiliated; she didn't have to make huge adjustments in a foreign country and try to pick up the pieces of her old life without much help from anyone; she didn't have to survive through the revolution itself, and then a violent world war, etc. I still feel sad when I think about Princess Paley and Natasha... What Maria and George go through is nothing compared to the difficult struggles Princess Paley and Natasha had to endure. So I don't understand why she had to say this: To those who debate the comfort of our exile I could suggest that they try it themselves, but I would not wish such a fate on them.
Doesn't she live in relative comfort? Or was she merely speaking on behalf of those who really struggled through an exile and had to work menial jobs to make ends meet?
I'm sorry if I'm yapping too much but I suddenly remembered those who were truly forced into exile. :( I even feel bad for the once-proud Cossacks who spent the rest of their lives trying to fight the Soviet Regime, who would rather die under their own hands than Stalin's, who were true lovers of their country and tsar but are now hardly remembered at all by history. I know that not all of them are a great bunch, what with the anti-Semitism and all, but I feel bad for them. I even feel bad for the Red Army soldiers who were sent to the gulags by Stalin!

Ok, I'm off topic. lol. Sorry, but I've been reading Gulag Archipelago and it's kind of depressing.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 01, 2007, 08:04:33 PM
Hi Benjamin,

The implication that she contemplates the eventuality of residing in Russia are in the quote you have offered.

In M. V.'s carefully worded statement she can not know really appreciate what it is to live in exile when she was born and raised in another country.

She is therefore unable to return "home" permanently. Her home has always been in Spain.

Margarita  ;)

Margarita,
It was said in another topic on this forum that Maria Vladimirovna, Leonida Georgievna, and Georgiy Mikhailovich were in 1992 restored to their Russian citizenship by President Yeltsin. It was also stated that the three members of the imperial family (as well as the late Vladimir) never took foreign citizenship, and were considered stateless until the restoration of their Russian citizenship. Wouldn't they then have been considered to be political refugees as long as the Soviet Union was in power? I realize that the Romanovs have lived in a comfortable exile, but they were exiles none the less ;).

I do see your point about Maria Vladimirovna kind of leading on people by saying that she would move to Russia in the event that the Russian government determines its relationship to her dynasty (I think that here she means she would relocate to Russia in the event that the government gives her some kind of role). However, don't you think that she would in fact move to Russia should the government do such a thing? I mean Maria hasn't flat out said that she plans to live in Russia. The Grand Duchess said she will should, in her own words, "the state determine its relationship to our dynasty."

Also, I believe Maria still owns Ker Argonid in Brittany.

Benjamin
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on April 01, 2007, 11:03:05 PM
However, don't you think that she would in fact move to Russia should the government do such a thing? I mean Maria hasn't flat out said that she plans to live in Russia. The Grand Duchess said she will should, in her own words, "the state determine its relationship to our dynasty."

Benjamin

Hi Benjamin,

What I believe that M. V. is really saying is that if Russia moves away from its present course towards full democracy, then she might consider her options. However she is certainly at liberty to purchase a residence to her liking if that will appeal to her.

In other words I doubt that she or George will ever preside in the Kremlin and demand that the Russian nation provides her family with a Palace(s) of their choosing. Such an expectation will immediately open the flood gates for all persons who held property prior to the 1917 Uprising to demand that their rights be restored.

Meanwhile she may of course continue to maintain her glorified circus outside of Russian territory. The Russian people do not need her to represent them on the world stage. Few inside Russia as I am lead to believe are interested in the restoration of any form a monarchic system. Its over and its time to concede that fact.

Margarita   ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 02, 2007, 11:18:37 PM
Margarita,

If what you believe to be the Grand Duchess's intent is true, then she must suffer from schizophrenia or some such disorder. As recently as March 15 Maria stated in the International Herald Tribune that the Imperial House has purposely chosen not to participate in politics (I'm afraid that is indisputable, we don't have any proof that she, as its Head, ever has). Here is another quote from the same interview that the Grand Duchess gave:

Quote
Q: It is well known that a condition you have set for your return is that the Russian Imperial House be granted the status of a “historical institution.” But, firstly, what does this status actually mean? Many—including both advocates and opponents of monarchy—believe that this is the first step to the return of monarchy. Secondly, does not this position mean that, if the state never does recognize the dynasty as a “historical institution,” the Russian Imperial House will remain forever in “emigration”?
In practically all countries, including former Communist countries, the question of the status of the formerly ruling dynasties is already decided; so we do not have to reinvent the wheel. The position of the monarchy in a republic is not unlike that of the Church in a secular government. Such a government, remaining republican and secular, recognizes also both the Church and the dynasty as occupying the position of historical institutions which exist and act on the basis of their historical foundations and traditions. In this way, they do not contradict the prevailing legal system. The state also draws these institutions into work on social, cultural, and other tasks, and grants to them, in the confines of a program for the preservation of cultural and spiritual customs, a measure of support for carrying out these functions. This in no way affects the foundations of the constitutional order. We are not fortune-tellers and not soothsayers, so as to foretell whether our return to the Motherland would hasten or postpone the establishment of monarchy. We are now fulfilling our duty and striving to be useful to Russia no matter what should happen in the future. We are citizens of Russia and we use all the means the law makes available to us to offer help to our countrymen. In all things, it is vital to proceed within the confines of the law, and gradually: a house is built from it foundation, not from its roof. The process of our return to the social life of Russia progresses steadily. I do not doubt that the question of the status of the Imperial House will be resolved favorably, for the mutual benefit of all parties.

Indeed, you are right that Maria Vladimirovna will never demand that the state provide her or her family with a palace (or at least the Winter Palace :)). Another excerpt:
Quote
Q: In the context of the question about the rehabilitation of the Imperial Family, the issue is often raised about claims to properties that had been seized and turned over to the people responsible for the overthrow of the heads of ousted dynasties. The law of the Russian Federation “Concerning the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repressions” gives to those persons who have been legally rehabilitated, and to their heirs, the right to request the return of all “property that was confiscated, seized, or otherwise lost” or for “money compensation.” Will you, as many fear, request the Winter Palace be returned to you?
Before taking up the question of the rehabilitation of our martyred relatives, I naturally acquainted myself with the “Law Concerning the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression,” and I understand perfectly well that the return of property or granting of compensation are possible only to those who were the victims of that repression themselves or to their immediate heirs—that is, their children. There are no surviving children of the Imperial Family, as everybody knows. I am the heiress of Emperor Nicholas II as head of the Imperial House; but according to present laws, this does not provide the basis for inheritance of property. However, this is not at all relevant to the matter at hand. Let us not mix apples with oranges. The question of rehabilitation has its own important moral significance. It is sad to me that there are people today who cannot imagine that one can do something without a motive rooted in money or property. All the fuss about the Winter Palace is nonsense. The Winter Palace is state property, not private property; and it will always remain so.

Some of the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church seem (in the case of Patriarch Alexis II) to be monarchistic or either openly are (Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad). As Russian Orthodox is the biggest religious denomination in the country, surely that has some bearing on the stance of members of that church.

If Maria was as unimportant to the Russian nation as some claim that she is, I doubt she would have even been invited to the reburial of the Empress Maria Feodorovna. Let alone would she have been given precedence over the late Empress's actual descendants.

Benjamin
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 02, 2007, 11:20:42 PM
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna at the reburial of Empress Maria Feodorovna (28 Sep 2006)

(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9639/mariawiththecpcpssofdenhh7.th.jpg) (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariawiththecpcpssofdenhh7.jpg)(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6986/mariaatthereburialofmarmy6.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaatthereburialofmarmy6.jpg)(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2411/mariaatthereburialofempxj0.th.jpg) (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariaatthereburialofempxj0.jpg)(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1029/mariareburial2uj4.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariareburial2uj4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 03, 2007, 01:49:09 AM
Benjamin, do you know if there were there other Romanovs present? And was it a simple re-burial? :D Thanks
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 03, 2007, 08:14:07 AM
Yes, there were other Romanov descendants present. There was an Ilyinsky as well as many of Maria Feodorovna's descendants. Here is the guestlist: http://www.royals-portal.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=15771&st=0 (you have to join that forum in order to access the list).

I definately wouldn't describe it as simple. There were a good number of royals in attendance.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 03, 2007, 09:44:26 AM
Yes, there were other Romanov descendants present. There was an Ilyinsky as well as many of Maria Feodorovna's descendants. Here is the guestlist: http://www.royals-portal.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=15771&st=0 (you have to join that forum in order to access the list).

I definately wouldn't describe it as simple. There were a good number of royals in attendance.

Thanks! <333
 I just checked it out. I didn't realize they gave Maria a more important position than Prince Nicholas, as well as the descendants of Dagmar. Does anyone know if Maria has the support of all Russian monarchists, or at least, the majority of them? Or are the monarchists in Russia divided? Because from what I gather, most people look at Maria's claim as a joke... I must be honest and say that the whole empress-in-exile thing comes off as a wacky circus, and IN MY EYES, it kind of tarnishes the Romanov reputation (I'll throw in the AA thing here, too!). I don't know, perhaps if they all stood together behind one person, the Imperial claim wouldn't appear silly. Perhaps more people would take the situation seriously.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians made a tsar out of Putin (God forbid)- Maria just doesn't seem that popular.
Anyway, I came across this old article: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/11/ab624837-fc03-4fbc-8be2-af624bbe20f2.html ...it's from 2006, and it mentions that "in 2006, a group of Russian monarchists linked to the state-security community anonymously published a widely circulated book, "Russian Project," in which they called for the restoration of the monarchy and the Russian imperial order."
Does anyone have more info on this? I'm just curious about it... and is Maria a part of that group?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 03, 2007, 12:09:32 PM
You're welcome, scarlett_riviera.

It's safe to say that Maria does have the support of a good number of Russian monarchists (I'm not sure if her supporters would constitute a majority, though. There really aren't any numbers available so it is almost impossible to know precisely just how much support she has).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 03, 2007, 08:39:39 PM
Official Portraits of the Imperial Family
(released 5 Dec 2006)

(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7861/gdmariaoffphotoux3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
H.I.H. The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8563/gdleonidaoffphotorel125ir7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
H.I.H. The Dowager Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna of Russia

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5017/gdgeorgiyoffphotoet4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
H.I.H. The Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 03, 2007, 09:26:02 PM
Because from what I gather, most people look at Maria's claim as a joke... I must be honest and say that the whole empress-in-exile thing comes off as a wacky circus, and IN MY EYES, it kind of tarnishes the Romanov reputation (I'll throw in the AA thing here, too!). I don't know, perhaps if they all stood together behind one person, the Imperial claim wouldn't appear silly. Perhaps more people would take the situation seriously.

Scarlett_riviera,
In what way do you think Maria Vladimirovna's activities tarnish the legacy of the Romanovs? I mean it is Maria who has led the fight to have Nicholas II and his family rehabilitated. Goodness knows how much that has cost of her time, let alone money. The Grand Duchess is active in Russian charities and in the Russian Orthodox Church. She has a very close relationship with Patriarch Alexis II.

This isn't to say that the activities of the other Romanov descendants aren't just as commendable (such as the charitable activities of the RMA). But these persons (for example those who comprise the RMA) aren't Russian imperial dynasts. Maria and her son are the only persons who are such. Maria isn't a pretender or a claimant to anything. She is, due to her birth and the extinction of male Romanov dynasts by the time of her father's death, the heiress to the imperial Russian throne. Her treatment by the Russian government (both under Yeltsin and Putin) and by the Russian Orthodox Church confirms this. Not to mention that every royal family in Europe (aside from that of Montenegro, maybe) support her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 04, 2007, 03:12:07 AM
Quote
Scarlett_riviera,
In what way do you think Maria Vladimirovna's activities tarnish the legacy of the Romanovs? I mean it is Maria who has led the fight to have Nicholas II and his family rehabilitated. Goodness knows how much that has cost of her time, let alone money. The Grand Duchess is active in Russian charities and in the Russian Orthodox Church. She has a very close relationship with Patriarch Alexis II.

This isn't to say that the activities of the other Romanov descendants aren't just as commendable (such as the charitable activities of the RMA). But these persons (for example those who comprise the RMA) aren't Russian imperial dynasts. Maria and her son are the only persons who are such. Maria isn't a pretender or a claimant to anything. She is, due to her birth and the extinction of male Romanov dynasts by the time of her father's death, the heiress to the imperial Russian throne. Her treatment by the Russian government (both under Yeltsin and Putin) and by the Russian Orthodox Church confirms this. Not to mention that every royal family in Europe (aside from that of Montenegro, maybe) support her.

Well it's not just Maria, I suppose. The whole family fighting over a non-existent throne seems a bit silly, but the person who seems most hostile about it is Maria (I read in Massie's book that her family does not consider the others Romanovs! ??? ). Their squabbles are painful to read because it makes me take them less seriously- and I have a lot of respect for the Romanovs (especially those who fought in WWI/survived the revolution). So it was rather unfair of me to say it was all Maria's fault for tarnishing the Romanov legacy.. just that when I read about her on Massie's book, and even on some threads on this board, and an article or two on the net, her claim to be an empress seems like a joke. Sorry if offended anyone. :-\ Still, I'm curious about her and her son George- you know, like I keep wondering what they'll do next.   

...
Okay I just read that exiled Imperial families do maintain their traditions, which is why they still refer to themselves as kings/empresses/princes even in exile (yep I'm still learning this monarchy thing! lol!). It's too bad they can't get along and make their claim stronger. And thanks for posting new pics! I rarely come across photos of Maria and her family and even the RFA and the Ilynskys.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 04, 2007, 03:18:16 AM
By the way, when willl George take up more "duties"? I hear a lot about Maria's efforts, but rarely anything about George. Or is he still too young?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 04, 2007, 10:09:33 AM
Well it's not just Maria, I suppose. The whole family fighting over a non-existent throne seems a bit silly, but the person who seems most hostile about it is Maria (I read in Massie's book that her family does not consider the others Romanovs! ??? ). Their squabbles are painful to read because it makes me take them less seriously- and I have a lot of respect for the Romanovs (especially those who fought in WWI/survived the revolution). So it was rather unfair of me to say it was all Maria's fault for tarnishing the Romanov legacy.. just that when I read about her on Massie's book, and even on some threads on this board, and an article or two on the net, her claim to be an empress seems like a joke. Sorry if offended anyone. :-\ Still, I'm curious about her and her son George- you know, like I keep wondering what they'll do next.   

Do remember that Nicholas Romanovich doesn't pretend to be the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov. He does consider himself, however, to be the Head of the Romanov Family. Something else that is rather interesting is that some members of the RMA who weren't born with a title have assumed that of "HH Prince/ss Romanov." This title is purely an invention, and just shows how far some people will go to make themselves feel important.

Maria doesn't consider the other Romanov descendants to be dynasts, that is for sure. And you are right, she probably doesn't agree with these other morganatic descendants using the name Romanov. This is because that is the surname of members of the Imperial House (whether they be Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses or Princes or Princesses of Russia). These people (the morganatic descendants) are none of those things and thus aren't entitled to carry that name. This is why the Ilynskys, Iskanders, and Yurievksys exist (or existed, in the case of the Iskanders).

I don't think it is fair to say that Maria is the most hostile (in fact it was Nicholas, I believe, who referred to her once as his "fat cousin" or something along those lines). She holds her views concerning the above subject based on what the FL (and other decrees) have ordained. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that. I agree that it would be better for the entire clan to get along (and you will find that the Ilynskys don't contest Maria's rights), but that doesn't seem possible because Nicholas Romanovich has said that he is never going to accept that Grand Duke George is a Romanov.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 04, 2007, 10:11:41 AM
By the way, when willl George take up more "duties"? I hear a lot about Maria's efforts, but rarely anything about George. Or is he still too young?

I don't know. However this is what he said in Oct 2006 concerning his occupation:
Quote
I worked for the European Parliament, then I transferred to a position as assistant to the president of the European Commission for Energy, Loyola de Palacio, in Brussels, then in Luxembourg in the European Commission for Atomic Energy and Security. This experience gave me the possibility to familiarize myself with the details of the structure of the European Union in terms of politics and economics, which will determine the future course of Europe. I think that this work gave me a good sense of these things. Now, I plan to study the work of private firms.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 04, 2007, 11:14:43 AM
The Grand Duchesses Maria and Leonida at the reburial of Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich and Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna (7 Mar 1995)

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1583/59376515yq9.th.gif) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=59376515yq9.gif)(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8401/27093341dm6.th.gif) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27093341dm6.gif)(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/669/97265378di0.th.gif) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=97265378di0.gif)(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9351/84868342zn7.th.gif) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=84868342zn7.gif)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: grandduchessella on April 04, 2007, 01:06:39 PM
I confess I don't know much about the modern situation at all. However, reading George's comments about what he's learning and experiencing made me wonder. If the family doesn't believe that they will someday be restored--and I don't see how anyone could really think that the throne will be--could it be that he perhaps hopes to serve Russia and, in effect, rule the country by becoming President someday--something along the lines of what Simeon of Bulgaria did?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: hikaru on April 04, 2007, 02:07:47 PM
I am very sorry ,but ever the presumption that George could be a Russian President someday makes me laugh :-*
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: grandduchessella on April 04, 2007, 05:20:14 PM
I didn't say he could but rather might he, his mother and/or any overly-ambitious hangers-on be thinking it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RealAnastasia on April 05, 2007, 06:11:54 PM
I am very sorry ,but ever the presumption that George could be a Russian President someday makes me laugh :-*

Don't laugh so loudly,Hikaru...Remember that the one who could have been Bulgaria's King, Simeon, became president of the Republic. I'm not a fanatic of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, but nowadays, almost ALL is possible. Grand Duke George President of Republican Russia? Oh...Why not? I've seen more absurd things these last years...Actors, singers and media-stars playing politicians, politicians singing in public as if they were stars themselves...Why wouldn't Grand Duke George be the President of the country that was rule by his ancestors by three centuries? If he really IS interested in Russian problems, he has all the rights of any Russian citizen to promote himself as a candidate...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mr_harrison75 on April 05, 2007, 09:13:13 PM
One example comes to mind; Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte, better known as Napoléon III, Emperor of the French. He was elected as President of the French Republic, and then, in 1851, after a vote, the Republic became (again) the French Empire.

It is entirely possible that a Romanov could become President of Russia, and then, poof, voilà! Imperial Russia is restored, especially if he/she did a good job as President. Of course, it would be a constitutional monarchy, but still...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 06, 2007, 10:10:17 AM
Whoa, president! But if Simeon of Bulgaria was able to do it... still, it seems a strange thought. I don't know much about Bulgaria, but isn't Russia a very hostile place right now, especially when it comes to politics? :\ And George strikes me as someone who's quiet and gentle... but I don't really know him so..
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Teddy on April 07, 2007, 03:11:34 AM
What is the CURRENT status of GD Maria, GD Leonida en GD George with/by the current reigning Royal Houses?

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on April 26, 2007, 02:34:07 AM
“To those who debate the comfort of our exile I could suggest that they try it themselves, but I would not wish such a fate on them.” 

She’s making it sound like she’s “suffering” in Spain. I don’t think MV is delusional. She knows perfectly well that she isn’t an exile, she just wants to feel closer to her roots. I think they stay in Spain for the simple reason that Spain, not Russia, is their true home. It sounds like she wants the perks of living in Spain, as well as the perks of being a Romanov GD but you can’t do that. She will never get the credibility she craves if she stays in Spain.

This isn’t an issue of nationality or ethnicity, but of vocabulary. According to dictionary.com- Exile: 1. expulsion from one's native land by authoritative decree. 2. the fact or state of such expulsion: to live in exile. 3. a person banished from his or her native land. 4. prolonged separation from one's country or home, as by force of circumstances: wartime exile. 5. anyone separated from his or her country or home voluntarily or by force of circumstances. 6. to expel or banish (a person) from his or her country; expatriate. 7. to separate from country, home, etc.:

MV has never been expelled, banished or separated from Russia. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 26, 2007, 11:01:10 PM
I agree with pookiepie.

By the by, what is Maria up to these days? Last I heard she was trying to rehabilitate the tsar. Has she been to any events lately?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on April 27, 2007, 12:44:29 AM
yeah, can someone explain the whole rehabilitation thing? what exactly does it mean? do you think she will win? maybe that's why she's not moving to russia but i doubt anyone cares. maybe russia sees this (rehabilitation) as giving in/losing?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 27, 2007, 11:45:21 AM
As  I understand it, the GD Maria V. is petitioning to have Nicholas' death changed from a legal execution to an illegal political murder. This has been rejected but an appeal is pending in May, I think.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 27, 2007, 12:53:16 PM
He's already a saint, tsar-martyr. What more does she want? But it's nice that she's trying to do something for Nicky II... just that the court has a good reason to reject her petition. I think even the patriarch sides with the court on this one.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 27, 2007, 07:55:03 PM
http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2006/10/02/russia-dreams-of-restoring-russian-monarchy/

Well it seems only 6% of Russian monarchists want a Romanov restoration (as of 06). If they ever do restore the monarchy, they'd probably make Putin tsar.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on April 28, 2007, 01:10:19 AM
What more does she want?

she wants russia to see the error of its ways but it's just not going to happen. they just don't care about this. but it's good that she's trying to get justice.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RealAnastasia on April 28, 2007, 07:23:22 PM
He's already a saint, tsar-martyr. What more does she want? But it's nice that she's trying to do something for Nicky II... just that the court has a good reason to reject her petition. I think even the patriarch sides with the court on this one.

Well...I'm not in Maria's side. I've never liked her a bit. But she demanding a good thing, for the Tsar WAS illegally murdered. Some people here affecting liking the Imperial Family is always defending the murders who shoot NAOTMAA. You could like NAOTMAA or dislike them; everyone is allowed to do it, since we are free in our consciences. But liking Nicholas or not is not a reason to see legality in Bolsheviks murders, and abuse of power. What happened to Nicholas (and don't forget it, to his wife, his five children, who where undoubltly innnocent,four retainers (also innocent people) and to of their dogs was not an act of justice, was not an execution but a murder. It was nothing like the execution of Louis XVI in France who  must go to a trial (a singular trial, but a trial after al) and died in front of a whole place filled of people who saw him die. Nicholas was shoot cowardly in a cellar. Nobody knew what was happened but much later, and even today we are trying to discover what really happened in this sinister basement of Ipatiev House. Why didn't they execute him in public, if he deserved such a fate?

And what about 6% of people wanting restoration in Russia? I don't believe in any of these polls. All of them seems to be manipulated. maybe there is more people wanting it, maybe there is even less than 6%. But history doesn't stop today. We must wait for see what tomorrow brings to us.

RealAnastasia.

P.S: Putin Tsar? Oh...well... ;D :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 29, 2007, 01:35:14 PM
Well in another article, they say 22% want to restore the monarchy. In another, 19%. But only 6% of those want the tsar to be a Romanov. Most of them want a current popular leader or something, and I believe the most popular one right now is Putin. And I also read in some article that for his 50th birthday, a group of officials gave him the exact replica of the legendary crown used in coronations. I believe it only had a symbolic role, though, but an important role nonetheless. I can't remember the name of the crown though... starts with "M". 
I just believe that if ever they restore the monarchy, Maria will not be the one chosen by the Russian people. I think even Prince Michael of Kent has a bigger chance of being chosen, as he is more known in Russia than Maria... at least, that's the impression I get from articles online. I'd love nothing more than a Romanov restoration, but WHO from that family perfectly fits the role of Tsar of all the Russias? One of the Ilynskys would be great, but they are so happy in America, I believe. Maybe Maria should just move to Russia. I agree with pookiepie, that she will never get the credibility she has been long fighting for if she stays in Spain. Russians are very nationalistic, proud people, and I doubt they'll welcome any foreigners to reign over their land.  :-\ 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 19, 2007, 09:23:31 AM
Tsars' descendant to attend Russian Church's unity act
Moscow, May 16, Interfax - Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, regarded by many as head of the Russian imperial family, is arriving in Moscow on Wednesday to attend the signing ceremony of a key unity pact between the Moscow-based Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia...
Rest of article: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3047
---------------------------------
Moscow City Court upholds ruling on rehabilitation of tsar's family
Moscow, May 14, Interfax - The Moscow City Court has upheld the ruling of the Tver Court of Moscow in the case of the rehabilitation of the tsar's family.
The court's ruling comes after an appeal by Great Princess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova and the Prosecutor General's Office...
Rest of article: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3023
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on May 19, 2007, 10:31:50 PM
i was just going to bring this up. are there any pictures of her there?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 20, 2007, 01:46:25 AM
It was pretty much a lost cause to begin with, imo. The Russian people are simply not interested in this sort of thing. The impression I  get from personal experience is that there where millions from ALL sides that died, one cannot drag each and every one up to "rehab" or condem all over again. The last Imperial Family were declared saints, that should be sufficient to their legacy and leave it at that. [how much higher can one get, after all?]
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 02:10:57 AM
Yes, let the last Russian royal family be, the last Russian royal family. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on May 21, 2007, 03:04:39 AM
The last Imperial Family were declared saints, that should be sufficient to their legacy and leave it at that. [how much higher can one get, after all?]

didn't the Russian Church only canonize them because the Russian Church abroad pressured them? if, as you say, the russian people aren't interested (and they aren't), then canonizing them is useless.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 21, 2007, 03:24:19 AM
IMO, the canonisation was a step in the direction of recolliation between the 2 branches of the Russian Orthodox Churhes. Plus, such events are a jolly good show!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on May 22, 2007, 03:10:26 AM
yes but canonization is a huge deal. it's not something to be taken lightly. you're supposed to want to do it because you truly believe they're saints. and the Russian church didn't want to. we pressured them. but maybe that doesn't matter. maybe today it's done out of pressure but in a few generations they might actually believe the canonization was a good idea and then it won't matter why it was done, as long as it was done.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 22, 2007, 03:53:10 AM
The ROCOR had already  declared the "Holy Martyrs" asints years before Moscow did.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 22, 2007, 05:02:34 PM
(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9291/mariya051du8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
A young Maria Vladimirovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
I wonder whether Maria's son George will ever marry a 'royal' in accordance with existing house laws?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Granduca Anton on August 08, 2007, 02:40:18 PM
There's an interview at Maria Vladimironva's web site where he is asked about the matter. I remeber he said that he liked Russian women and first of all his future wife should love Russia... I don't think there's any blue blooded princess in Russia nowadays! The only Orthodox Princess of his age that comes to my mind is Theodora of Greece but she lives in London. They could make a nice couple.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 08, 2007, 04:31:15 PM
I do not know how much demand there is for  a Russian Grand Duke on the royal marriage market now, but German  [Protestant] princesses were the usual source.  Of course, now, she should not only have blood blood but a very blue bank account!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2007, 09:16:35 PM
There's an interview at Maria Vladimironva's web site where he is asked about the matter. I remeber he said that he liked Russian women and first of all his future wife should love Russia... I don't think there's any blue blooded princess in Russia nowadays! The only Orthodox Princess of his age that comes to my mind is Theodora of Greece but she lives in London. They could make a nice couple.

Granduca Anton,
I believe this is the one that you are referring to: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastynews/news/2006/692.html.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 12, 2007, 05:02:31 PM
i was just going to bring this up. are there any pictures of her there?
If you are referring to the unification, yes.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3883/17may2007cl5.th.jpg) (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17may2007cl5.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 29, 2007, 07:28:48 PM
Here's an article about Maria's visit to Australia in September:

No red flags, just red carpets, for grand duchess
25 Sep 2007
The Russian Government does not look like restoring its monarchy any time soon, but one member of the deposed Romanov dynasty is...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/no-red-flags-just-red-carpets-for-grand-duchess/2007/09/24/1190486225419.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on October 29, 2007, 07:49:17 PM
Quote
... The Russian Government does not look like restoring its monarchy any time soon,

How wise!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 13, 2008, 07:26:06 PM
On 29 January 2008, the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, met in her apartment in Madrid with the Vice-Premier of the Russian Government and the Head of Apparatus of the Russian Government, S. E. Naryshkin, and with the head of the Russian Federal Agency for Tourism, V. I. Strzhalkovskii, who were in the Spanish capital to conclude trade negotiations between Russia and Spain and to participate in the International Tourist Trade Fair (FITUR)...
http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastynews/news/2008/800.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: ashanti01 on April 03, 2008, 11:45:32 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/211leavingbanquet1xn3vs3.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/GrDuchMaria-1.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/maria03sm2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2008, 05:44:23 AM
Portrait of Maria Vladimirovna:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/MV.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: William on July 07, 2008, 11:43:33 AM
Some fascinating insights in this thread, and equally fascinating photos....thanks to all contributors.

I have been studying this for half a century and still can't make up my mind about Maria Vladimirovna's claims for be head of the Family.

The negatives:
Maria Pavlovna, her great grandmother refused Orthodoxy until after the birth of her son - which debars
Kyrill Vladimirovitch, her grandfather, and his line from the succession.
Kyrill married his first cousin, and divorcee, Victoria Melita of Edinburgh and Coburg (and ex Grand Duchess of Hesse). First cousins are forbidden marriage by the orthodox Church and Imperial Family laws.
Vladimir Kyrillovitch, her father married into the georgian royal family, but it is very doubtful whether this would have been regarded as a suitable marriage for a dynast. (Compare other "legitimate" spouses were all from reigning royal or grand-ducal houses).
Vladimir Kyrillovitch was the first member of the IF to break his oath of allegiance to the Tsar and marked his soldiers of the Garde Equipage away from protecting the Empress and children at Tsarskoe Selo, and earned him the undying enmity of the Dowager Empress, amongst others.
Her son is a Prussian prince, not a Russian Grand Duke at all (?)
Finally - she is a girl!!  You cannot have a lady head of the family unless you change the laws (and who's to change them??).

The positives:
Her pedigree is infinitely more impressive that most of her detractors  This includes her Bagration-Moukhranski blood - a lot bluer than most!
She alone seems to be keeping the Romanov flame alive - and who knows what may happen in the crazy world.  If Russia ever does look for its long-lost rulers then her son, through Maria's and her father's efforts would seem a fit candidate.
At least she doesn't write it all off as a long-lost cause (although of course the odds are somewhat against her).
Ninety one years after it all blew apart - who is to say that as a female she doesn't have the right to carry the line forward?  Who says that she can't marry a superbly royal Prussian prince and make him into a Russian one.  It has been done before.

So whilst in the very purist sense many of the boxes are not ticked for MV and GM -  I give them 10 out of 10 for effort.

I have to say that talking about the Imperial Family Fundamental laws now, in 2008, is just hot air.  Dead rhetoric.  Would they not have changes anyway had the dynasty survived? impossible to think that survival and radical change would not have gone hand in hand.  It was the intractability of the old material that doomed them in the first place.

Equally, had Michael Aleksandrovitch (ie Floppy the First) lived, been protected, and successfully fought the Bolsheviks, who is to say that the post WW1 maelstrom would not have seen him emerge as HIM Mikhail II of all the Russias.  Is it so inconceivable that there could not have been an Empress Natasha, and Tsarevitch George Mikhailovitch? Maybe he would have lived if he had not been in Paris on that fateful day, Maybe his son or grandson would rule Russia as a constitutional monarch. Maybe WW2 would not have happened - or ended differently.

just musings....but fascinating thoughts.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 07, 2008, 10:58:51 PM
I have to say that talking about the Imperial Family Fundamental laws now, in 2008, is just hot air.  Dead rhetoric.  Would they not have changes anyway had the dynasty survived? impossible to think that survival and radical change would not have gone hand in hand.  It was the intractability of the old material that doomed them in the first place.

I agree.  If the dynasty had survived and continued to rule Russia, succession laws would had to have been changed.  After Nicholas II and Michael, I believe the succession would have passed to Kyrill.  Surviving monarchies have had to change succession laws to reflect current attitudes--Queens will one day reign in Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden because girls were born before their brothers.  Look what has happened recently in the Romanian RF.  Michael of Russia would have been allowed to rule but I doubt seriously Natasha would have had equal status.  She would have been on a level similar to Catherine Dolgoruky.  Kyrill's and Victoria Melita's cousinship would have been overlooked because of VM's pedigree, and I think Leonida's would have been accepted as well. There is even a precedent for Maria Vladimirovna's situation w/ her ex-husband and son:  The house of Romanov is really the house of Holstein-Gottorp, if I remember correctly!  However, at this point, I doubt George Hohenzollern/Romanov would be expected to make a royal marriage, they are so uncommon and no one does them.  Heirs are allowed to marry, for the most part, whomever they wish nowadays.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: William on July 08, 2008, 03:26:42 PM
Yes - in the end it boils down to pragmatism.

William
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: William on July 09, 2008, 04:02:37 AM
Just a final thought re "Empress Natasha".

Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovitch recalls a dinner in St Petersburg when Alexander II was alive, after the death of Empress Marie Feodorovna, when he was married to Catherine Dolgorukaya (created Princess Yurievskaya).  He seemed bent on elevating Catherine to the status of Empress once official mourning for the late empress was ended, and his morganatic offspring to the status of grand duke and duchesses. .  He seemed quite determined, and Sandro's father, Grand Duke michael believed he wouod do it, and had the absolute power to make it happen if he so wished (and would have supported him too - even though the rest of the afmily was scandalised).  Had Alexander not been assasinated it may have happened.
Who's to say in the blood bath maelstrom of post 1917 Russia what may have happened if Misha had lived and a new, more democratic Russia had emerged instead of the totailitarian Bolshevik USSR?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on July 09, 2008, 04:27:39 AM
Maria would not I think allow that. She has ruled out all other Romanov's because of un equal marriage and states that none of them can claim the throne. She states that it is her line and only her line that have follwed the rules and thus she is the only person out of the Romanov family who can claim the throne, should it ever be restored. If she agreed that her son could marry who he liked she would open the doors to every member of the family being able to claim and some have far better claims than hers in my view. I take the view that her line is in the same position as every one else with regard to marriage and there are other threads that explain this in detail. Also in my view George is a Prince of Prussia not a Romanov as such.

Michael

I have to say that talking about the Imperial Family Fundamental laws now, in 2008, is just hot air.  Dead rhetoric.  Would they not have changes anyway had the dynasty survived? impossible to think that survival and radical change would not have gone hand in hand.  It was the intractability of the old material that doomed them in the first place.

I agree.  If the dynasty had survived and continued to rule Russia, succession laws would had to have been changed.  After Nicholas II and Michael, I believe the succession would have passed to Kyrill.  Surviving monarchies have had to change succession laws to reflect current attitudes--Queens will one day reign in Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden because girls were born before their brothers.  Look what has happened recently in the Romanian RF.  Michael of Russia would have been allowed to rule but I doubt seriously Natasha would have had equal status.  She would have been on a level similar to Catherine Dolgoruky.  Kyrill's and Victoria Melita's cousinship would have been overlooked because of VM's pedigree, and I think Leonida's would have been accepted as well. There is even a precedent for Maria Vladimirovna's situation w/ her ex-husband and son:  The house of Romanov is really the house of Holstein-Gottorp, if I remember correctly!  However, at this point, I doubt George Hohenzollern/Romanov would be expected to make a royal marriage, they are so uncommon and no one does them.  Heirs are allowed to marry, for the most part, whomever they wish nowadays.



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: William on July 09, 2008, 05:53:33 AM
The question is, I suppose, by who's authority is Maria Vladimirovna in a position to deny anyone anything?

Whilst i agree - on balance she has better credentials than anyone else - she is the only claimant (ie. no one else seems to be claiming anything in all seriousness).  Whether anyone takes any notice of her manifestos and proclamations is debatable.

When Vladimir Kyrillovitch died, without male issue, then the (non existant) throne should have passed to the next fit male in line (in theory).
Boris died without legitimate issue, as did Andrew. Paul's line was extinct. That would pass job to the sons of Nicholas Nicholaevitch, both of whom contracted morganatic marriages, as did the descendants of Michael Nicholaievitch and the rest.

In the strictest adherance to the rules/laws of succession, the throne should pass to decendants through the male line and goodness knows where we would end up trying to find a likely candidate.  There probably isn't a legitamate heir anywhere.

So we're back to Maria - who clearly wants the job - but actually can't have it (because of the law Salic declared by Emperor Paul)....so an expedient is to pass straight on to George, and forget about his mum (but thanks for holding the fort).

Now..... George is a Prussian prince - a Hohenzollern.  However - we know that you can wave the wand and change names and keep dynasties going by slight of hand movements - it has been going on for ever.

So - change his name to Romanov (or Hohenzollern-Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp or whatever confection you like), proclaim him heir and have done with it.

What are his credentials?
Well - he has a fab pedigree.  He is great great great grandson of Queen Victoria and therefore a descendant of that mighty company of English Sovereigns going back to the Normans.
He is a Great great grandson of Kaiser William II of Germany, and therefore doubly descended from Victoria.
He is a Great great great grandson of Alexander II of Russia.

(Fs I have miscounted the "greats" forgive me and don't rush to correct me - it hardly matters).

He therefore has the blood of virtually every king and emperor the world has known in his veins, and very little of that has been diluted (officially at least) with anything "common".

Now, all he needs is common sense, patience, statesmanship, and a lot of luck and one day he will be useful to the country his mother has been working so hard to keep for him.

Personally I wish him luck....he may even be able to influence the sorry mess that Russia is in, but somehow i doubt it will ever happen.

Actually - he looks good too - which is a bonus.

And by the way - shame on some of you for booing and hissing about Maria Vladimirovna's stature.  She may have a large frame - but so did Princess Mary Adelaide, Queen Mary's mum (Fat Mary in the family).  No need to be rude!


 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 09, 2008, 06:52:13 AM
Well put, William, except that  Paul did not disallow female succession.  They would just come after all LEGITIMATE male heirs. Therein lies MV's claim. Also, she has never really claimed to be the inheritor of the "throne" but  the curious role of "Curiatrix" or regent, caretaker. She certainly has the support of the Patriarch, if only for her devoution to the Church. As for her son, George. Who knows what he may feel about all this, rather academic discussion of his future?
 If Russia were to ever decide to restore a monarchy, there is no sure guarantee that it would be the Romanovs to fill the role, anyway. Their mandate  ended in 1917.  Just as they were chosen,  a new dynasty could well be elected, couldn't it?
 As for Russia itself. what kind of sorry mess do you think it is in now? Have you been to Russia lately?  No country is without it's faults, and of course Russia is no exception, but you might  pay more attention to the huge progress made under Putin and  continuing under Medveiev [? about the spelling]
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on July 09, 2008, 06:56:59 AM
I think we should follow GD Michael and his abdication manifesto of 1917 and let the people decide by secret vote who if anyone is to be Tsar and, further, what type of monarchy. Assuming of course that Russia wanted one in the first place.

I agree it does not have to be a Romanov and if a Romanov the people can state which one

Michael
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 09, 2008, 07:10:06 AM
GD Michael did not abdicate, despite the general impression. One cannot abdicate from something one never accepted. It is a highly contentious historical, legal issue with various viewpoints. But he was never emperor. He  was never proclaimed,  accepted by the  Council, Church or government & military. All legitimisng powers in Russia at the time. More to the point, he declined the throne and left the decision up to the Russian people.
 As with most things Romanov, however, it is a purely academic argument, is it not?
 [BTW, this all adds more to the legitimate claims of MV, her father and grandfather]
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on July 09, 2008, 07:15:15 AM
Hi Robert,

We could argue for years! It is my own personal view and I accept that there are others as well. One could argue that the Imperial Power passed to Michael the movement Nicholas signed his 2nd abdication as the power was never a vacuum. Another view is that as Nicholas II signed the first abdication manifesto naming his son that it was his son who was the last Tsar and not Michael. One can argue with friends until we are old and grey but I agree it does not really matter as there is no throne.

Hope you are well

Michael 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 09, 2008, 08:19:44 AM
There are several ways of looking at the succession to the throne, but those are more properly discussed in that particular thread. I doubt that anyone will ever come to a consensus on the matter. It is  just a matter of historical debate anyway. And it is hardly worth an argument in anger over.
 As for MV herself, she is hardly a precedent is she? Not only amongst the Romanov  dynasty, but  in any dynasty there have been conflicts of claims. Most of the others had something to "go for" however. Still, there are claimants running all over the globe, with various degrees of credibility to no non-existant thrones. The Grand Duchess herself is not very pressing about any of this. She pretty much confines her actions to work in the Church.  When it comes to her son, well, there is a point that he is a Hohenzollern "prince" but  then, Peter II was a prince of Holsein-Gottorp, if I am correct, and there is some doubt about Pul I himself- his paternity form a suspect union of his motherm, the Empress CatherineII  of Holstein-Gottorp. So denigarting the GD Giorgi to a German prince is not really such a valid argument. There has not beenm a real Romanov ruler on the throne since perhaps Peter I himself.

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: William on July 09, 2008, 09:26:58 AM
Aaah....this is so jolly!!

Great to see such passion still flourishing, and with such a vast amount of knowledge to boot.

regards

William
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 14, 2008, 04:30:13 PM
Maria would not I think allow that. She has ruled out all other Romanov's because of un equal marriage and states that none of them can claim the throne. She states that it is her line and only her line that have follwed the rules and thus she is the only person out of the Romanov family who can claim the throne, should it ever be restored. If she agreed that her son could marry who he liked she would open the doors to every member of the family being able to claim and some have far better claims than hers in my view. I take the view that her line is in the same position as every one else with regard to marriage and there are other threads that explain this in detail. Also in my view George is a Prince of Prussia not a Romanov as such.

Michael

I have to say that talking about the Imperial Family Fundamental laws now, in 2008, is just hot air.  Dead rhetoric.  Would they not have changes anyway had the dynasty survived? impossible to think that survival and radical change would not have gone hand in hand.  It was the intractability of the old material that doomed them in the first place.

I agree.  If the dynasty had survived and continued to rule Russia, succession laws would had to have been changed.  After Nicholas II and Michael, I believe the succession would have passed to Kyrill.  Surviving monarchies have had to change succession laws to reflect current attitudes--Queens will one day reign in Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden because girls were born before their brothers.  Look what has happened recently in the Romanian RF.  Michael of Russia would have been allowed to rule but I doubt seriously Natasha would have had equal status.  She would have been on a level similar to Catherine Dolgoruky.  Kyrill's and Victoria Melita's cousinship would have been overlooked because of VM's pedigree, and I think Leonida's would have been accepted as well. There is even a precedent for Maria Vladimirovna's situation w/ her ex-husband and son:  The house of Romanov is really the house of Holstein-Gottorp, if I remember correctly!  However, at this point, I doubt George Hohenzollern/Romanov would be expected to make a royal marriage, they are so uncommon and no one does them.  Heirs are allowed to marry, for the most part, whomever they wish nowadays.




Wow. So many incorrect statements and misconceptions - I scarcely know where to begin!

Maria Vladimirovna has not initiated any of the matters which you attribute to her. Her father, Vladimir, is responsible for her marriage contract in which their offspring are NOT Hohenzollerns, they are Russian dynasts. Not everyone respects contracts (I do), but if you don't it's your right. The Fundamental Law has not been modified since the Imperial era - and they are responsible for the current situation in which Maria, her mother and her son are the only living dynasts.

However, the situation with marriages will most certainly be resolved one way or another - and soon. If George marries equally, then there likely would not need to be any changes to the Fundamental Law. If he does not marry or does not marry equally, then it will be necessary to either amend the Law or to allow the dynasty to become extinct,
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 14, 2008, 04:46:14 PM
If he marries at all!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 14, 2008, 10:06:20 PM
If he marries at all!

Agreed. And, that may help resolve the situation with dynasts and the Fundamental Law.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 19, 2008, 09:43:53 AM
A tad "wordy" for an interview but interesting. Nice to hear from  GD MV. I hope that  more people watch this, it will clear up a lot of misconcetions about  and her positions.
 Thank you for the link Lucien.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on July 19, 2008, 10:44:11 AM
Thannk you so much for this link. I found it intresting and it was good to hear Maria speak and voice her views.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: susana on November 23, 2008, 04:54:06 PM
Here's my opinion on the whole Leonida--Marie thing: Leonida married real ly well; he got killed; their daughter inherited; Vladimir and Leonida decided to marry; she married UP and he married $$. They had a daughter Marie and now all were supported financially by the heiress daughter; Imposter daughter Marie married a lowly but genuine title to have a legitimately titled child; but fake titles can't inherit a. thrones and b. nonexistent thrones or c. thrones which CANNOT pass through the female line.

These insurmountable problems are relative ONLY to Leonida and the imposter and the imposter's son. Looking back to GD Cyril, he was never eligible for the imperial throne as his mother hadn't converted to Orthodoxy prior to her marriage OR his birth; nor had Vladimir's mother Ducky; and no matter how hard you wish it you simply cannot create a silk purse out of a sow's ear--OH! Excuse me--I meant to say you can't just hand out royal titles right and left to create your own court in exile and set youself and your family up for a magical throne. Other obstacles also exist: morganatic marriages, divorces, narcissism in the extreme, evident Russian disinterest in occupied thrones, flouting of the laws of succession, leadership of a marching band of ruffians--OH! Excuse me again--I meant to say ruffian revolutionaries. Anyway I bet I've made myself clear on this issue. Thank you for your time,  WHEW  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David Pritchard on December 01, 2008, 03:56:54 PM
Here's my opinion on the whole Leonida--Marie thing: Leonida married real ly well; he got killed; their daughter inherited; Vladimir and Leonida decided to marry; she married UP and he married $$. They had a daughter Marie and now all were supported financially by the heiress daughter; Imposter daughter Marie married a lowly but genuine title to have a legitimately titled child; but fake titles can't inherit a. thrones and b. nonexistent thrones or c. thrones which CANNOT pass through the female line.

These insurmountable problems are relative ONLY to Leonida and the imposter and the imposter's son. Looking back to GD Cyril, he was never eligible for the imperial throne as his mother hadn't converted to Orthodoxy prior to her marriage OR his birth; nor had Vladimir's mother Ducky; and no matter how hard you wish it you simply cannot create a silk purse out of a sow's ear--OH! Excuse me--I meant to say you can't just hand out royal titles right and left to create your own court in exile and set youself and your family up for a magical throne. Other obstacles also exist: morganatic marriages, divorces, narcissism in the extreme, evident Russian disinterest in occupied thrones, flouting of the laws of succession, leadership of a marching band of ruffians--OH! Excuse me again--I meant to say ruffian revolutionaries. Anyway I bet I've made myself clear on this issue. Thank you for your time,  WHEW  

An absolutely perfect shade! Which reminds us all why published character smears were once called yellow journalism.

This is an old issue that seems to be re-discussed and disputed on a regular basis. It would seem that there are those who do not care for the Vladimirovichi but do not simply say so. With this lack of honesty in their motives, they insult our intelligence by presenting a twisted understanding of the Fundamental Laws of Russia that governed the succession and membership of the Imperial House of Russia.

The Emperor/Head of Imperial House was/is the sole interpretor of the Fundamental Laws. As such the Emperor granted the titles and pensions of Grand Dukes of Russia to the sons of Grand Duke Vladimir and his wife Grand Duchess Vladimir. After her conversion to Orthodoxy, Grand Duchess Vladimir was given the Russian name of Maria Pavlovna and the title of Grand Duchess of Russia in her own right by the Emperor.

Grand Duke Kyril Vladimirovich was Head of the Imperial House after the abdication of Mikhail Aleksandrovich, thus it was Kyril and later his son Vladimir who were the sole interpretors of the Fundamental Laws. Their decisions regarding the interpretation of these laws are not debatable according the the autocratic nature of the Russian Imperial House.

Again, if one does not care for the Vladimirovichi, simply say so but do not distort historical fact as a smoke screen for ones true motivations.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: susana on December 06, 2008, 01:34:49 PM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear--I don't care for this branch of the family--some of the individuals were delightful in some ways however I consider them as a whole schemers and somewhat preposterous in their pretensions to a toppled throne. Someone was inevitably going to be considered the Head of the House of Romanov en exile, but I believe it was first the Dowager Empress, then Nicholas Nicholaivich, and through today Prince Nicholas Romanov. The only Romanov considered Head of State by QEII is that same Prince Nicholas for whom she stood when greeting. This was a first for any present day Romanov and is prescribed by etiquette for any head of state. The Queen has never stood for another member of this family. I do want to say that I spent a little time with four members of the Romanov family travelling through Russia and they very politely glossed over the Vladimirovichi--that branch was a non-subject--the branch of the family was cut as only royals can cut a topic.

When Paul I changed the laws of succession there was no recourse as evidenced by the succession of emperors who followed faithfully his wishes. The Vladimirovichi, in all their previous Russian glory, were not ennobled enough or ennabled to perform, even with the trappings of a coronation and support of the throne, the change in the law of succession which was firmly in place since his Paul's accession.

Yellow journalism is generally considered to be rabble-rousing with a loose association with facts. This entry represents my opinion of Grand Duchess Leonida's familial royalty and is based solidly on Romanov rules and facts. I've offered some information, some even first-hand and this is called objective reporting in which I clarified my bias up front.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2008, 05:28:24 PM
On what basis Nicholas II recognised the House of Bagration equal when Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna married?Her husband was signed as Prince Grudzinsky or something like that if I remember correctly?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David Pritchard on December 07, 2008, 03:05:16 PM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear--I don't care for this branch of the family

With this issue out of the way, your opinions (and their value) can be weighed in the minds of the readers in a fairer manner.

When Paul I changed the laws of succession there was no recourse as evidenced by the succession of emperors who followed faithfully his wishes.

This not true legally. The Emperor was the Sovereign Autocrat and he could change the Fundamental Laws if he so desired. The Fundamental Laws were modified four times by a reigning emperor: the Manifesto of Nikolai I of 22 August 1826, the Family Statute of Alexander III of 2 July 1886, the Fundamental Laws of the Empire of 23 April 1906 and the Imperial Ukase No. 1289 of 8 August 1911. What did keep Emperors Aleksander I through Nikolai II from changing the line of succession defined in the Fundamental Laws was their desire not to break the Coronation Oath. They were however free to break the oath without legal concequence if they so desired since they were the Sovereign Autocrat.


The Vladimirovichi, in all their previous Russian glory, were not ennobled enough or ennabled to perform, even with the trappings of a coronation and support of the throne, the change in the law of succession which was firmly in place since his Paul's accession.

A very odd paragraph to me. The Vladimirovichi Branch was never enobled since they were born of the purple cloth, that is in more common parlance born, into an imperial family rather into a noble family. Emperors or kings in exile never have coronations. Grand Duke Kyril Vldimirovich was in exile when it became known that his senior male line cousins were all dead and that he was thus the head of the Russian Imperial House. A proper coronation according to imperial traditions could not have been staged at the Moscow Kremlin as it was occupied by Lenin and his henchmen.

The better question to ask here might be if a non-reigning head of the imperial house has the legal ability to change the laws of succession to an abolished Throne?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on December 09, 2008, 09:56:29 AM
It is an important question -

"the better question to ask here might be if a non-reigning head of the imperial house has the legal ability to change the laws of succession to an abolished Throne?"

Though it's important to bear in mind the real arguement within the Romanoff family actually concerns the pre-revolutionary rules regarding who members of the dynasty could marry whilst retaining their dynastic rights. So a better question might be "whether a recognised head of an exiled imperial house has the right to change the rules regarding the marriage and status of other members of that exiled imperial house?"
The answer to that is yes they did, but the Romanov's didn't which is why the great divide has continued.

Point 1: Like it or not - Grand Duke Kyril was the senior surviving male Romanov, irrespective of the views of the Dowager Empress or any other member of the family, with the death of Nicholas 11, Alexei and Michael, Kyril was next in line to the Imperial Throne (we can debate for hours whether or not Marie Pavlovna's late conversion to orthodoxy affected his rights but the reality is that once the Dowager was dead the vast majority of the family did recognise him as such and in time the vast majority of the male dynasts alive in 1938 recognised Vladimir as head of the house.)

Point 2: Nicholas II was approached prior to the First World War by senior Grand Duke's requesting that he ammend the rules over equal marriage - he refused and in fact re-emphasised the requirement for a Grand Duke to marry equally and that descendants of an unequal marriage did not have dynastic status.

Point 3: Nicholas II never formarly recognised the Bagraton's as equal (irrespective of what Russia's treaty obligations to them might have been) they did not have the same status within the Empire that say the Leuchtenberg or the Oldenburgs enjoyed. A casual comment and a note to Grand Duke Constantine (at the time of his daughter Tatiana's marriage) does not equate with a formal change or recognition of equal status.

Point 4: The 1911 emphasis on the need for Grand Duke's to marry equally is silent on the Prince's and Princesses of the Blood (great grandchildren of an emperor) that doesn't in itself mean that they could marry unequally and transmit their rights to their children. In fact a strict reading of the rules would suggest that whilst the Emperor was willing to permit and authorize an unequal marriage for a Prince or Princess of Russia (though not for a Grand Duke) it still mean that their offspring were not dynasts.

Point 5: If you accept (as most Romanov's do) that Grand Duke Kyril was head of the house until his death, and that as such he exercised his rights (as de jure Sovereign Emperor) to raise his children to Grand Ducal status - then you can accept that the head of the Russian Imperial House did have the right to exercise sovereign power in exile and therefore could ammend the rules if he so wished.

Point 6: The fundamental rules are quite close the the British situation - they don't clarify anything about the marriage of someone who is already sat on the throne - technically therefore Grand Duke Vladimir as de jure Emperor declared his own marriage to be valid and technically he was the sole arbitor of whether it was or not.

Point 7: As it became apparent that his only child would be his daughter Maria - he seems to have refused any suggestion that as head of the family he should adapt or change the rules governing the marriages of members of the dynasty - in effect ensuring that at his death there would be no surviving male dynasts left and thereby ensuring that his daughter would succeed him in his pretensions.

Point 8: Many of Europe's exiled Royal Houses have ammended their rules in exile - for example the Hapsburgs ammended their family statutes - AD Otto doing so after consulting senior members of the House of Austria-Este - it enabled his son to marry Baroness Francesca Thyssen-Bornemisza.

Point 9: Whilst many families have chosen to amend or just ignore their house rules over marriage very few have actually attempted to change their rules of succession - one sole example i can think of is the Romanian Royal House.

Finally and personally it seems to me that technically Maria Vladimirovna (whether you call her Princess, Grand Duchess or an ex Princess of Prussia) probably has the strongest claim, that none of the surviving male line descendants of the Russian Imperial House are descended from an equal-marriage and as of 1917 would not have been regarded as dynasts. Had Russia remained a monarchy had it moved slowly to a constitutional form then its highly likely that by today it would like most of Europe's remaining monarchies abandoned many of these rules and regulations and would probably have first moved to male preference primogeniture and perhaps eventually to absolute primogeniture. Its always struck me that trying to stick to the rules, twisting them to suit personal situations and personal dislikes that Kyril and Vladimir managed to extinguish the dynasty.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: David Pritchard on December 09, 2008, 02:14:42 PM
mcdnab,

What a wonderfully knowledgable post on this topic. It is nice to learn that there are still members of this forum that are actually familiar with the Fundamental Laws and have a firm understanding of them. I am strongly in agreement with you on all your points.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on December 11, 2008, 12:04:57 PM
Thanks for your kind comments - i don't pretend to have any great knowledge of the situation i am not a legal expert, the above was mainly from what i'd read over the years.

I will say a couple of other things I do believe that Kyril's insistance on maintaining the rules was understandable given that in the twenties the chance for a restoration was felt still to be far more likely.  I do believe that Vladimir should have exercised his rights to amend the house rules over marriage (given that so many other reigning and non-reigning houses were doing so) but I do think his decisions to stick to the rules were motivated by a desire that his only child should succeed him in his pretensions rather than a distant cousin who's branch of the family had always been opposed to his and who himself only had daughters.

There are faults on both sides of the arguement and there is a case that both sides are technically correct, the status of marriages of Prince's of the Blood was never properly clarified, although the Pauline Law on equal marriage would still apply.

I personally don't buy the arguements advanced that the House of Bagration were a sovereign house and therefore equal but again it is debateable - Grand Duke Vladimir made a different judgement (once when he was consulted over the marriage of Leonida's brother to the niece of Alfonso XIII of Spain and again on his own marriage to Leonida) to the one made by Nicholas II when Tatiana Constantinova married and technically that was his right to do so as de jure Emperor.

One interesting point worth mentioning is if (and its a big if) Grand Duke Kyril's mother's failure to convert to Orthodoxy before his birth would bar his succession (if not his membership of the dynasty) then the heir to the throne following the death of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovitch (murd 1918) was Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovitch (murd 1919) and then Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich in which case as head of the house his unnequal marriage would be irrelevant as he would have been de jure Emperor at the time of his marriage and his Illynsky descendants might then have been considered dynasts.

Of all the issues relating to Europe's former reigning houses the attempt to maintain their rules regarding equal marriage into the 20th and 21st centuries has been one of the most damaging - causing serious dynastic problems for not only the House of Holstein Gottorp Romanov, but for the Royal House of Prussia and many others. Sadly the only people to blame for these problems and dynastic divisions are the members of the houses in question.

None of them seem capable of facing modern realities - ironically the surviving reigning houses have shown more pragmatism which is why their thrones remain relatively secure and their unequal consorts have proved rather popular - Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, Diana Princess of Wales, the Crown Princess of Denmark, The Queen's of Sweden and Norway, the Crown Princess of Norway, The Princess of Orange, The Princess of The Asturias etc.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on December 20, 2008, 04:23:13 AM
She was recently interveiwed on Russian TV, and really did not make a good impression, I think. Maybe she was filmed from the wrong angle, which was very unflattering, so her physical presence did not inspire any conficence, or project "royally" enough. Perhaps I was comparing her to other royals, which may be prejudicial.
Or perhaps I was expecting her to be more impressive, especially given her background, previous marriage etc. Although she is very well educated, and speaks well, she was hesitant, and repetative. Maybe if she was interviewed in  more "Royal" surroundings, it would have made a difference. A bit dissapointing.   
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on December 20, 2008, 02:22:06 PM
Actually, everything taken into consideration, and after having read the previous arguments, I really cant imagine why she considers herself to be heir to the Russian throne. Or her son for that matter.
One thing stands out, and that is Queen Elizabeths attitude toward Prince Nicholas. I dont think she would get out of her chair for Leonida. Surely the Queen of England's acknowledgement of Prince Nicholas should, to a very large extent, settle this much debated issue ? Or is she misinformed ? I dont think so.   
         
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on December 22, 2008, 08:21:29 AM
I think its perfectly reasonable for Maria Vladimirovna and her widowed mother Leonida to regard her as the legal heir - her grandfather and father were recognised as the senior dynasts and heads of the dynasty by almost all the surviving male dynasts of the Russian Imperial House (the only exception being Grand Duke Nicholas, Grand Duke Peter and Prince Roman Petrovitch - Prince Nicholas' father). In their view none of their family had made dynastic marriages and therefore Maria would be the legal heir.

As to her son's position - he is her heir and he is certainly born of a dynastic marriage (the Prussian Royal house seem to regard Maria as the product of an equal marraige as her son is regarded as a Prussian Dynast as well as a Russian one). The Imperial House changed with the death of Elizabeth and the accession of Peter III from Romanov to the House of Holstein-Gottorp (technically Oldenburg) - the Imperial family continued to use Romanov (Peter III's mother was Grand Duchess Anna Petrovna of Russia) therefore its technically not an issue that George Mikhailovitch is technically a Hohenzollern - presumably the house would become Hohenzollern-Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov???

As to the views of the Queen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain etc (she is not Queen of England - a bit pedantic but no such title exists and hasn't since the Act of Union) - she's never expressed them so we can't know nor does her view or opinion really matter. in fact the incident as it is related suggests that she permitted Prince Nicholas to sit in her presence which has been read as suggesting she recognised his rights or claims but its a far stretch.  Maria is far more closely related to the Queen than Prince Nicholas as far as that matter goes. Maria - Vladimir - Kyril - Victoria Melita - Alfred - Victoria Queen of The UK of GB etc, Elizabeth II - Albert (George VI) - George V - Albert Edward (Edward VII) - Victoria.

The better way to sort out the dynastic squabbles would be for Maria to offer formal recognition of her cousins as dynasts and they to offer to accept a switch to male preference primogeniture and recognise her claim - but that would be far too sensible of course. On one side you have a rigorous and unbending view of the rules governing marriage and on the other a rigid determination to stick to semi selic laws regarding succession. The reality of this is that if her son doesn't marry or marries unequally the dynasty will be by her standards defunct - as most Grand Duchesses of Russia were required to rennounce their rights on marriage to foreigners the only eligible descendants will be the descendants of Vladimir's sisters (both of whom married equally)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: susana on December 25, 2008, 07:42:43 PM
We can all write back and forth as much as we want but Paul changed the law of succession to include only male Romanovs--it was never changed to re-include females and of course its now too late. Elizabeth II did stand in recognition of Prince Nicholas as the Romanov Head. And it doesn't matter who's more closely related to QEII or anyone in my opinion as clearly the succession, if it were a real issue would be through a male.

Its more inviting to participate on this forum when we exchange ideas and sometimes laughs--but not very pleasant when a reply to a post sounds critical. Kind of takes the fun out of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 26, 2008, 04:05:24 PM
News Release on the Attendance of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, at the Funeral Services for the Newly-Reposed Patriarch Aleksei II of Moscow and All Russia, 6-10 December 2008

(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3896/memorialwf2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

On the morning of 5 December 2008, His Holiness, Patriarch Aleksei II of Moscow and All Russia, reposed in the Lord. Having learned this heartrending news, the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, immediately postponed all her other plans and on 6 December flew to Moscow to pay her last respects to the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, with whom the Imperial family has for many years been linked in a bond of love, respect, and mutual support...

Full press release: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastynews/news/2008/852.html
__________________________

Georgy Romanov appointed as Advisor to General Director of MMC Norilsk Nickel
12 Dec 2008

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7375/file0147ki7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Grand Duke Georgy Romanov was appointed Advisor to the General Director of MMC Norilsk Nickel (MMC Norilsk Nickel or the Company).

In this capacity Georgy Romanov will represent the Company’s interests in the European Union.

Together with MMC Norilsk Nickel First Deputy General Director Oleg Pivovarchuk and Deputy General Director Viktor Sprogis, Georgy Romanov will join the Board of Nickel Institute (http://www.nickelinstitute.org) with the aim to represent the Company. Among other matters, he will be responsible for the Company’s initiative contesting the European Commission decision to classify a number of nickel compounds as hazardous substances.

Full press release: http://www.nornik.ru/en/press/news/2353/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on December 29, 2008, 09:49:24 AM
Susana
I didn't think any of my posts were particularly critical - ironically I tend to share your clear distaste for the Vladimirovichi line. However the Pauline Laws (as incorporated into the 1906 fundamental rules of the Russian Empire as amended prior to 1917) are pretty clear on the rules I was merely explaining why Maria and Leonida hold the view they do and also why Prince Nicholas holds the view he does, if that came across as rude or offensive then naturally i apologise.

Paul didn't exclude women from the succession. He adopted the system that had been adopted by the Hapsburgs - semi salic - succession through the male line only but in the event of the extinction of the male line the throne would pass to the senior female dynast and thence to all her heirs in the same manner.
As far as I understand - The current and long standing arguement centres on two distinct views - 1) the vladimirovichi's view that a) Leonida's marriage to Vladimir was valid  and b) that on Vladimir's death in 1992 there were no surviving male dynasts.2) The view of Prince Nicholas that a) the Ukase of 1911 on marriages of members of the dynasty DOES permit marriages of Prince's of the Blood to women of non-corresponding rank and that b) that the offspring of such marriages are Russian Dynasts - in which case on the death of Vladimir Kyrilovitch  - Prince Nicholas became the senior male dynast of the House of Holstein Gottorp Romanov. 
I've tried in my posts to explain the reasons behind those views and how they relate to a strict reading of the Pauline Laws, the Fundamental Rules of the Russian Empire and the varying Imperial Ukases relating to them.
As to the issues surrounding Elizabeth II - as I stated she's actually never made any comment on the matter, nor does her opinion matter in connection with the rules of the now defunct Russian Empire. I may have misquoted the meeting which i understand took place at a Faberge Exhibition and that she stood up on being introduced to him - but i wouldn't necessarily read that as an acknowledgement, I've been in a room where The Queen stood on being introduced to someone who had no Royal claims whatsoever. Nicholas Romanov is undoubtedly head of the Family Association but my understanding is that whilst he claims he is the senior member of the family and dismisses Maria's claims he has never claimed to be de jure Emperor unlike Maria.  I think one point worth bearing in mind is that Nicholas and his brother and other members of the family association tend to feature more in official functions relating to the Romanov's such as the reburials in St Petersburg whereas Maria tends to feature more in religious events in Russia etc which I think is interesting though has no bearing on the rights and wrongs of either side though.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: TampaBay on December 30, 2008, 07:30:09 AM
mcdnab & Susanna,

All the Romanovs need to get together and revised their family laws (which is what the Imperial Laws really are IMO) for a modern world in 2008.

There is some web site where a Russian scholar actually did this and suggested that the family adopt his revisions of the Imperial laws.

What I find really interesting is the GD George does not seem to me to be all that really interested in being the "Tsar".

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: susana on January 05, 2009, 11:23:49 AM
I understand about the last male available--then go to female. I just believe the Vladamiroviches (sp?) had a flawed line before 1917. Really we're all correct as this forum contains not only facts but opinions. Interpretations are naturally going to differ. IMO Prince Nicholas behaves with dignity, Maria is a bit pushy (we call it beating a dead horse to death) and there's no tsardom for her son George. The few Romanovs I've spent any time with seem to find Maria an embarrassment--but of course they're too well-bred to discuss her. A few neutral words and that's it. Where ever QEII stood the material I read indicated it was a rather large honor--I like that. Thank you for the apology I felt a bit singed but I've noticed it happens often on here so its just a little personal thingy.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on January 06, 2009, 05:41:05 AM
No problem Susanna that's the problem with postings rather than a conversation I certainly didn't mean any offence.

To be fair to Maria I suspect her "pushiness" is in part the fact that over the past few years we've seen several former monarchies invite or permit their former monarch's or their heirs to return (Serbia and Roumania for example) and have granted them some kind of semi-official status - which presumably is what she is hoping for in the long run. I think in many ways its probably harder for her to surrender those hopes and behave differently given her family have spent nearly 90 years insisting that they were the senior line and to be fair with the exeption of Prince Nicholas' grand father and great uncle the dynasty did accept both Kyril and Vladimir as claimants. It was only in the 1960's that the remaining dynasts finally broke with Vladimir and to be fair it was largely his own fault.

As to the rest of the family I think most of them accepted a long time ago that the chance of any kind of restoration was fairly thin and they've got on with their own lives as you say behaving with dignity and emphasising that such matters as restoration rests with the Russian People as Michael Alexandrovitch stated in his 1917 manifesto.

As to the British Queen - I've very rarely seen her seated when she greets someone, it would be impolite to stay seated even if her position as monarch meant she could, but I could be wrong who knows.

You mentioned the status of the Vladimirovichi before 1917 - and it is an interesting one. I am no great expert but from everything I have read it would be difficult to argue that the Vladimirovichi were not regarded as dynasts prior to 1917.

Whilst it would be unthinkable for an Empress Consort or the wife of the heir to the throne not to have been Orthodox at their marriage I believe the Pauline Law only requires the wife of the heir to be Orthodox - when Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovitch married Marie Pavlovna he was fourth in line to the throne (behind his brother and his nephews Nicholas and George) - as he had consent to marry her and their children were all listed as dynasts I don't think her lack of conversion until later life would affect their rights.

As to Kyril's marriage - at the time of his marriage he was also fourth in line (after Alexei, Michael and his father Vladimir), true the Orthodox Church did not permit first cousins to marry, however other Romanov's had married first cousins, I also believe that in the case of such a marriage taking place the Russian Church doesn't regard the marriage as invalid. The Tsar was head of the church prior to 1917, Nicholas II in eventually recognising Kyril's marriage arguably dispensed any impediment to the marriage. He granted Victoria Melita the style Imperial Highness and Grand Duchess of Russia - their two daughters born before the revolution were listed in the court calendar as dynasts with the style Her Highness and Princess of Russia (as great granddaughters of a sovereign) and Victoria had converted to Orthodoxy long before the birth of her son Vladimir.

There is in one issue that would negate the relevance of morganatic marriages that i have recently read and would therefore arguably dismiss Maria Vladimirovna's claims to be the daughter of the last dynast - the fact that Nicholas II abdicated in favour of his brother Michael Alexandrovitch a Grand Duke who was in a morganatic marriage (which up to that point Nicholas clearly regarded as making his brother inelligable for the throne - just as Alexander I had regarded his brother Constantine's marriage in 1820 as making him inelligable to succeed him). You could at a stretch argue that Nicholas effectively abolished the equal marriage rule by his abdication in favour of Michael but of course Nicholas' abdication in favour of Michael is still disputed by those who adhere strictly to the Fundamental Rules. If that act did put an end to it then it would mean that the Russian Succession or claims would pass first to the male line Vladimirichi, thence to the Illyinsky decendants of Grand Duke Dimitri, thence to Prince Nicholas and his brother, thence to the Mikhailovichi (the descendants of Grand Duke Alexander and Grand Duchess Xenia) and only then to the senior surviving female dynast.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on January 06, 2009, 10:03:07 AM
Interesting discussion. I agree with the view point that we should follow the wishes of GD Michael Alexandrovich in that it should be put to the Russian people as to if, when and who takes the Crown of Russia. It may be Maria it may not but that should be for the people to decide one way or the other.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2009, 09:21:30 PM
Don't know about who is right and who is wrong,but considering that of all Russian dynasts Princess Leonida Bagration-Moukhransky was in the highest position to be considered equal(there were things why Bagration family would be considered equal and thing why not) comparing her to Countess Cheremeteva who was a mother of the other claimant Prince Nicholas...

Other thing is that I would include as far as the marriages are concerned is that present claimant married again equal royal(Prince of Prussia who belonged to another Imperial family) in comparation to Prince Nicholas's wife who just happens to be a Countess della Gherardesca...

Third thing which goes this time in favour of Prince Nicholas is that he is a male descedant and Maria is a female descedant leaving foreign Prince(her son George) as Head of the House(similar like Peter III came to be an Emperor as Prince von Holstein-Gottorp)...

So,don't know which of those things is more important...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Lucien on February 02, 2009, 10:26:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu26iE6Oyaw&feature=related
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: V_Corona on February 05, 2009, 05:40:21 PM
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/MariaBebe2.jpg
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2009, 03:26:23 PM
Utter nonsense.  The Pauline law does not exclude women.  Period.Full Stop.    All the males come before the females, but females have rights.  This is made quite clear with various renouncements, such as the renouncements of Princesses Tatiana and Irina when they married.

The story about the queen standing for Nicholas Romanov is also utter nonsense.   The queen has never made a statement regarding the imperial succession because it is irrelevant ... she stood up because she was greeting a group of people who walked into the room.

Grand Duchess Maria, on the other hand, was actually invited to tea at Buckingham Palace by the queen when maria attended Oxford.




We can all write back and forth as much as we want but Paul changed the law of succession to include only male Romanovs--it was never changed to re-include females and of course its now too late. Elizabeth II did stand in recognition of Prince Nicholas as the Romanov Head. And it doesn't matter who's more closely related to QEII or anyone in my opinion as clearly the succession, if it were a real issue would be through a male.

Its more inviting to participate on this forum when we exchange ideas and sometimes laughs--but not very pleasant when a reply to a post sounds critical. Kind of takes the fun out of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 28, 2009, 09:23:31 PM
House of Romanovs files pleas for rehabilitation of members of Russian royal family
27 March 2009

Moscow - The House of Romanovs on Friday filed pleas with the Russian Prosecutor General's Office requesting the rehabilitation of members of the royal family who were executed after the revolution.

"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna believes that all the members of the royal family named in the plea had fallen victim to the arbitrariness of the totalitarian state and were exposed to political reprisals on social, class and religious grounds," German Lukyanov, a lawyer of the House of Romanovs, told Interfax

He said two pleas for the rehabilitation of relatives were filed by head of the Russian Imperial House Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.

Lukyanov said she insists on the rehabilitation of Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich who was shot in Perm on June 13, 1918, and also Grand Duchess Yelizaveta Fyodorovna, Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich, Prince Ioann Konstantinovich, Prince Konstantin Konstantinovich and Prince Igor Konstantinovich who were thrown into a mine in Alapayevsk on July 18, 1918.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5850
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: rkonnoff on April 29, 2009, 08:00:17 PM
I would say, so much for Leonida not being Royalty..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1kGR-S03s
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 12:34:02 PM
One small of GD Maria Vladimirovna:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/049050049057050052049055124.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
In this video you posted there is a lady wearing a tiara on the right...who she might be?

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/bagration.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Bryan von reyes on May 10, 2009, 01:23:44 AM
HI David Pritchard Im a fan of the Grand Duchess and i hope that you will post out of kindness more pictures of her. Photographs of her are rare and YOU made me happy by posting some of her pictures here. I can see the Remarkable resemblance of The Grand Duchess and Queen Victoria.  Any news about the grand duchess? have a great day!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on January 25, 2010, 08:19:49 PM
Switching topics a bit here, a few weeks ago at church they made an announcement that Maria was going to come to the sobor in san francisco to venerate the relics of st. John. Has anybody heard anything about this? Supposedly, she will be there at the end of April.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Margot on February 26, 2010, 06:14:45 PM
Tchelogovitov ruled that because Maria Pavlovna (elder) was NOT Pravoslavnaya when her children were born, under the laws of succession they were excluded. Somewhere in GARF is his report on the subject to Nicholas II. This whole statement is a waste of time and bid for attention from Georgie who has nothing anyway.

yawn indeed.


I lifted this marvelously pertinent post and pasted it here because it so beautifully and succinctly highlights the absurdity of seeing MV swanning about in her delusions of 'Imperial' grandeur! I also note that, if her son George Prince of Prussia does the unspeakable and marries a commoner, his mother would apparently simply have her minions and courtiers rustle up a new 'ukase' for her to scribble her name on in order to change the family rules again and make sure her son keeps his place as her heir! I was gobsmacked when I read this rather airily written explanation of how MV would solve such a dilemma on the Wives for George thread! In a way, I really do hope Her (self styled) Imperial Highness will be forced to put her signature to such a document as it will really highlight just how ludicrous and hollow her pretensions as self proclaimed Matriarch and Head of the Family are!

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on February 26, 2010, 07:09:40 PM
Hi Margot, interesting post. Who is Tchelogovitov? And why then was the Vladimiroviches (I'm no fan of them by the way) listed in the court calender as dynasts in the reign of Nicholas II?
I don't think that marrying a comoner in these days can be considered "doing the unspeakable", even in the Romanov family. It's not the case in the current reigning Royal Families, who use to have strict rules regarding equal marriages. Why would her signing a ukase show her pretensions as Head of the Family to be ludicrous?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Margot on February 26, 2010, 07:59:20 PM
Kmerov I too have not been able to identify who Tchelogovitov was yet! I have no idea why the Vladimirovichi would have continued to have been listed as Dynasts if the findings were accepted! As FA was the author of the source I naturally feel that the issue has been researched quite thoroughly and stands up under scrutiny.

I can't bare MV flouncing around like something akin to a frightfully vulgar and desperate Suburban Matron who never knows when to stop applying her maquillage with a trowel or when to start behaving in a manner befitting to her self proclaimed position, rather than ceaselessly seeking attention for herself and her precious son

As to the ludicrousness of MV signing a Ukase in order to permit her son to marry a commoner. I personally feel that it would reek of hypocrisy unless MV inserted a retroactive clause that would subsequently make all unequal marriages contracted by dynast after 1919 'equal' in line with the re-writing of the rules to suit herself and her son!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on February 26, 2010, 08:25:23 PM
I can't bare MV flouncing around like something akin to a vulgar and desperate Suburban Matron who never knows when to stop applying her maquillage with a trowel or when to start behaving in a manner befitting to her self proclaimed position, rather than ceaselessly seeking attention for herself and her precious son

Margot, your posts are a pleasure to read, regardless of our differences of opinion! :)
Ok, maybe FA can explain who he was, or someone else for that matter, but interesting!

I don't know if I feel the same way about making all marriags after 1919 equal. Most of the Romanovs acknowledged their marriages as being morganatic, because that was the times and the House Laws. Changing the House Laws and issuing Ukases regarding the IF is a prerogative of the Head of the House, and I feel that in this case most people would do the same as MV.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Margot on February 26, 2010, 08:41:39 PM
Kmerov you are too kind!

MV just gets into my craw! In the same way her grandfather provokes a similar sensation. I only suggested the retroactive clause, as a piece of mischief and because I think it would only be fair to do so! It would be the most magnanimous and family orientated gesture MV could ever carry out! As Head of the House, MV has so much power in her manicured claws but I very much doubt she will ever use any of it in a positive familial way!

The more I hear about MV the more she reminds me of her ravenously power hungry great grand mother the grasping Marie Pavlovna!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 26, 2010, 10:24:48 PM
Kmerov you are too kind!

MV just gets into my craw! In the same way her grandfather provokes a similar sensation. I only suggested the retroactive clause, as a piece of mischief and because I think it would only be fair to do so! It would be the most magnanimous and family orientated gesture MV could ever carry out! As Head of the House, MV has so much power in her manicured claws but I very much doubt she will ever use any of it in a positive familial way!

The more I hear about MV the more she reminds me of her ravenously power hungry great grand mother the grasping Marie Pavlovna!

Margot, I understand how you feel. I have always been more in sympathy with the RFA and their stance that the Romanovs should help Russia as much as they can, and not worry about a restoration of the monarchy.

That said, I have come to respect the sincerity with which the Grand Duchess does her work as Head of the Imperial House. I don't see her as power hungry as much as bound by tradition. She has been a single parent for quite a long time, and having done that myself for a number of years, I can't dismiss her without giving her credit for raising her son to be a responsible adult.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 26, 2010, 10:39:13 PM
Hi Margot & Lisa,

Now-a-days most royal marriages are pretty much 'morganatic'...
After WWI, princes & princesses married commoners.  As we know, in the British Royal Family, Princes Albert (York) & Henry (Gloucester) married ladies of the Realm.  And, Princess Mary married a Viscount.  Even Prince George (Kent) marrying Princess marina could be considered morganatic, since Greece had banished its ruler(s) at the time of that wedding.

And, with the Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns and Romanovs all thrown out of their own countries, they were now morganatic souls too!!

I personally really don't champion a candidate for the Russian monarchy;  but I do favour Maria Vladimirovna simply because Lisa Davidson and Arturo Beeche do - and they know more about the subject than I do...

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Margot on February 26, 2010, 11:14:12 PM
General Alexander Spiridovitch, Chief of Secret Security Police to the Emperor, in his Memoirs states as a matter of fact that Nicholas II asked Minister of Justice Tcheglovitov to prepare a report about succession rights to the Valdimirovich descendants.  The report stated without a question that because Maria Pavlovna was not Pravoslavnaya on the day she was married, her children had no succession rights.  The Ukaze issued by Alexander II giving consent when Vladimir married Maria Pavlovna stipulated specifically that ONLY Vladimir kept his rights, not his children.  Tcheglovitov was clear in the report that none of the Vladimirovtichi had succession rights to the Imperial Russian Throne because her adoption of Orthodoxy decades later was not "retroactive" because her sons were born to a non Pravoslavnaya mother.  I hope that this document still might exist in GARF and one day it will be found. Spiridovitch was most clear that there were THREE copies of his report, one for Nicholas II, one was sent to Maria Pavlovna, and the third retained in his records.


I am so glad I found FA's explanation about the issue of Maria Pavlovna's status with regards to Orthodoxy on another thread!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 27, 2010, 12:12:57 AM
Maria Vladimirovna's rank is only disputed by the two elderly sons of Roman Petrovich and several descendants of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich.

Regardless of whether or not you accept that HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia is the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov, the fact is that the vast majority of the Royal Houses of Europe (specifically: the Spanish Royal Family, the Belgian Royal Family, the French Royal Family, the Greek Royal Family, the Portuguese Royal Family, the Bulgarian Royal Family, the Serbian Royal Family, the Romanian Royal Family, the Prussian Royal Family, the Wurttemberg Royal Family, and the Albanian Royal Family) as well as the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Government recognize her as such. That is what matters.

Sometimes it seems as though most people who oppose Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's role as Head of the Imperial House only do so out of a deep-seated and frankly irrational dislike either of her or of her ancestors, and not because they can get the Fundamental Laws to support their claims.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on February 27, 2010, 05:44:20 PM
General Alexander Spiridovitch, Chief of Secret Security Police to the Emperor, in his Memoirs states as a matter of fact that Nicholas II asked Minister of Justice Tcheglovitov to prepare a report about succession rights to the Valdimirovich descendants.  The report stated without a question that because Maria Pavlovna was not Pravoslavnaya on the day she was married, her children had no succession rights.  The Ukaze issued by Alexander II giving consent when Vladimir married Maria Pavlovna stipulated specifically that ONLY Vladimir kept his rights, not his children.  Tcheglovitov was clear in the report that none of the Vladimirovtichi had succession rights to the Imperial Russian Throne because her adoption of Orthodoxy decades later was not "retroactive" because her sons were born to a non Pravoslavnaya mother.  I hope that this document still might exist in GARF and one day it will be found. Spiridovitch was most clear that there were THREE copies of his report, one for Nicholas II, one was sent to Maria Pavlovna, and the third retained in his records.


I am so glad I found FA's explanation about the issue of Maria Pavlovna's status with regards to Orthodoxy on another thread!


Thanks for finding the explanation. However, I do not think that Spiridovich (when did he write his memoirs? and how did he view the Vladimirovichi in general?)  writting about someone else who made a report, that is somewhere in the GARF is the ultimate valid source on the matter. Especially considering that all the Vladimirovichi were listed in the court calender as being dynasts until the very end of  Imperial times. This, and the fact that the Fundemental Law does allow dynasts who are not direct heirs to marry someone who is not an Orthodox, and the law does not mention their children being excluded from the succession, leaves room for doubt.
I have never heard of the Konstantinovichi branch not being dynasts despite GDss Elizaveta Mavrikievna being a Lutheran, and I think that Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna had to renounce her succession right before her marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on February 27, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
Kmerov,you got the point...how come the Vladimirovichi who were not direct heirs but were very closer to throne were supposed to be excluded from succession rights and Konstantinovichi who were not that close were not excluded by the same system...and Maria Pavlovna and Elizaveta Mavrikievna both being Lutheran...

If there was an prepared report by Nicholas II it could have more personal meaning regarding Maria Pavlovna's ambitions...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on February 27, 2010, 08:57:32 PM
...  the fact is that the vast majority of the Royal Houses of Europe (specifically: the Spanish Royal Family, the Belgian Royal Family, the French Royal Family, the Greek Royal Family, the Portuguese Royal Family, the Bulgarian Royal Family, the Serbian Royal Family, the Romanian Royal Family, the Prussian Royal Family, the Wurttemberg Royal Family, and the Albanian Royal Family) ... recognize her as such.

Excluding one or two Families from your list, we are talking about people who pretend to the throne. International recognition by other pretenders has nothing to do with who is actually the head of the Romanov Family. The two cliques must resolve the matter first.

Sometimes it seems as though most people who oppose Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's role as Head of the Imperial House only do so out of a deep-seated and frankly irrational dislike either of her or of her ancestors, and not because they can get the Fundamental Laws to support their claims.

There are no legally binding Imperial Fundamental Laws. That body of law was made defunct after Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich rescinded the Crown.

Kirill breached his Oath of Allegience and that is a fact. What followed years later, in a foreign jurisdiction has no legal relevance.

The emergence of Kirill's pretend crown along with his rules allowed his family through the generations to continue playing the same game.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 02, 2010, 01:34:49 PM

Excluding one or two Families from your list, we are talking about people who pretend to the throne. International recognition by other pretenders has nothing to do with who is actually the head of the Romanov Family.


Very well, but you excluded the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Government from your reply. This is because both address Maria Vladimirovna as HIH Grand Duchess of Russia? A title she was also accorded by government officials from Australia to Belarus to Transdniestria to Turkey.

Some would disagree that recognition by the European Gotha counts for nothing in such matters, but we are all entitled to our own opinions.  : - )

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: pookiepie on April 06, 2010, 02:04:51 AM
Switching topics a bit here, a few weeks ago at church they made an announcement that Maria was going to come to the sobor in san francisco to venerate the relics of st. John. Has anybody heard anything about this? Supposedly, she will be there at the end of April.

In case anyone is interested, MV will be at the sabor in San Francisco on Saturday April 24th 2010 at 5pm, then for liturgy the next morning.  I'm not a fan of her politics but as a romanov fan, i'm obviously going :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 06, 2010, 08:22:52 AM
I have waded through everything written about this person, as well as the endless arguments for and against her claims, and I remain convinced that neither she or her son have any credibility. What they have, is so thinly spread that it is virtually non existent. Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.   

Are there NO Romanov decendants who can put a stop to all of this ? Dont any of them have the gumption or clout to denounce her once and for all ? 

I am embarrassed for the Romanov family every time I see her on television. Is this what they have come to, a large over frosted mobile cake of a woman giving herself airs and graces to which she really has right ? The most embarrassing public airing she was given on Russian televison fairly recently, was at a function attended by Putin and the Church. She loomed larger than life over a buffet table, but thankfully she did not touch the food.

Everything about her is just so inappropriate, she does not fit into the whole milieu or history of this family.

       

 

I
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on April 06, 2010, 09:01:54 AM
I have waded through everything written about this person, as well as the endless arguments for and against her claims, and I remain convinced that neither she or her son have any credibility. What they have, is so thinly spread that it is virtually non existent. Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.   

... Everything about her is just so inappropriate, she does not fit into the whole milieu or history of this family.

Well stated Pavlov!

The very idea that she and her son George anticipate the restoration of the monarchy in their favor is such an absurdity.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 06, 2010, 09:10:56 AM
Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.        

Well,by that "real" Romanovs were extinct in second half of 18th century with the death of Empress Elizabeth...

If any of Romanov male heirs have married a person whose status would be considered equal that would change the thing,but as that is not the case it is hardly changeable...of all the families male Romanovs have married after their exile Bagration family has most the most chances to be considered equal...

This just depends on what criteria would or should be used for the term "Russian Heir",just a male who bases his claim on being a most senior in the family without marrying "equally" or being a product of such(Prince Nicholas Romanov with Cheremeteva mother and married to Gherardesca) or descendants of most senior male who has married equally and his daughters did this as such(questionable claim of Maria Vladimirovna,as her mother is Bagration,and she married to Hohenzollern)...



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on April 06, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
As I have said in the past I think Russia should follow, when the time is right, the contents of GD Michael's abdication document and put it to the people if, who and when. IMHO I do not support GD Maria for all the reasons so often stated here and not least her blind attachment to the ROC, which has served her so very badly over the remains buried in the P and P.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 06, 2010, 05:38:04 PM
Ok,what criteria should Russian Heir follow?

Equality of birth or male line seniority?Those two criteria are main reasons for dispute in the family nowadays... 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 07, 2010, 07:47:16 AM
On second thoughts.....I think the whole problem here is that the Romanov Family, for some reason, do not, and cannot, and dont want to, take a stand against her and denounce her. I dont think they really care anyway.  Time has made them realistic about Russia and the highly unlikely reinstatement of their Dynasty. Sadly. Perhaps they are giving her enough rope with which to hang herself.

Grand Duchess M's whole claim is based on the Bagration link, which has not been a ruling house for centuries.
As far as I know the rules of succession clearly state that an heir to the throne of Russia has to marry a member of a RULING family. The Bagrations were kicked out centuries ago. Or am I wrong ?

Her self "appointed" grandfather was not accepted by the Dowager Empress, and had the Romanovs survived, he would probably have been tried for treason anyway, or banished from Russia for the remainder of his life. 
He certainly was not a shining example of loyalty to the family when he was alive, what makes his grandaughter think that she can arbitrarily and single handedly, wipe the slate of history clean and appoint herself as God's annointed Empress / Tsarina of Russia? ( In waiting )
She just "magically" arranged for her whole family to become Romanovs. Amazing. 

Or have I got it all wrong ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Teddy on April 07, 2010, 08:16:39 AM
I think that if The last ruling Emperor Tsar Nicholas accepted the marriage between Princess Tatiana K. and Prince Bagration, then the marriage of GD Vladimir K. with Princess Leonida is also accepted.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 07, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Grand Duchess M's whole claim is based on the Bagration link, which has not been a ruling house for centuries.
As far as I know the rules of succession clearly state that an heir to the throne of Russia has to marry a member of a RULING family. The Bagrations were kicked out centuries ago. Or am I wrong ?

Heir doesn't have to marry into the ruling family,albeit he often does...Here is a quote from the other pretender to the Russian throne Prince Nicholas Romanov about marriages in Romanov family in which they followed Gotha:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

Here is link for this quote:
http://www.nikolairomanov.com/doc/iv1pre/index.html


P.S.Bagration family was a ruling one until 19th century and that was the reason they treated it something like "equal"...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 07, 2010, 07:28:28 PM
In the end it was up to the Emperor to decide who was equal enough when there was a controrversy. Nicholas I accepted Duke Maximilian of Leuchtenberg as equal when he married GDss Maria Nicholaevna, eventhough he was not a member of a ruling family and his father started his life as a commoner.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 07, 2010, 10:24:21 PM
There is also the base to Maria's claim by the fact that royal status of the House of Bagration was permanently recognized by Russia in the Treaty of Georgievsk in 1783.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 09, 2010, 07:29:53 AM
Yes but there is also her grandfather's treasonous behaviour, which surely cancels a few things out ? I think a treaty signed by Catherine II in 1783 may have expired by now, and is certainly past its 'sell by" date. It therefore cannot be regarded as the basis for this woman to proclaim herself " Empress in Waiting" of Russia !!
 
Anyway, this is becoming such a boring and longwinded subject, maybe we should give it a rest. We could argue about this endlessly.

I just think she is demeaning the whole family. I dont care who or what she is, or is trying to be, she does not fit into the picture.

She and her son just bug me big time. They are an embarrassment to the memory and dignity of the Romanov family. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on April 13, 2010, 02:40:04 PM
Not quite:
The new ruling from Nicholas II following discussions with Tatiana's father resulted in the much disputed edict that implied that unlike a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess a Prince or Princess of the blood could marry unequally - the debate has always been whether such a marriage enabled the said Prince or Princess to pass their rights to the issue of such a union.
However like his niece Irena, Tatiana was required to renounce her rights to the succession on her marriage which implied that they couldn't.

Effectively the Bagration's were not regarded as equal in in pre revolutionary Russia but Nicholas didn't believe that such a marriage should deprive Tatiana of her rank as a Princess of Russia just her rights to the succession.

I get the impression that Vladimir's view before and after his marriage was that the Romanov's being dispossessed of their throne put them technically in the same bracket as the Bagrations!


I think that if The last ruling Emperor Tsar Nicholas accepted the marriage between Princess Tatiana K. and Prince Bagration, then the marriage of GD Vladimir K. with Princess Leonida is also accepted.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 13, 2010, 03:50:38 PM
Here is a quote from the other pretender to the Russian throne Prince Nicholas Romanov about marriages in Romanov family in which they followed Gotha:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

Here is link for this quote:
http://www.nikolairomanov.com/doc/iv1pre/index.html


That is a very odd example Prince Nicholas Romanov picked, considering that the Harrachs were both Catholic and only one line of them actually mediatized. (As you explained so throughfully regarding the Princess of Liegnitz in another thread, Marc.) Also considering that no Romanov dynast actually ever married a member of a mediatized house. But if mediatized German houses were OK in principle, I can't see why a mediatized Georgian house shouldn't be OK in princicple.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Margot on April 13, 2010, 06:49:15 PM
Gosh I would love to own a cosmetics shop in SF! You could make a fortune if MV ran out of something and had to send her dresser down to replenish MV's Make up troughs! One could probably retire on that sale alone!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2010, 07:19:48 PM
True,but if you read carefully you will see that he said "daughter of an Illustrious Highness" which automatically means that she comes from a mediatized line,not just from countly one...and even a Catholic if she were to convert to Orthodoxy it would have been possible...So,saying this Prince Nicholas said that Russian IF followed Gotha rules and just made an EXAMPLE in order that a reader with common knowledge would understand his point.

Maria Kirillovna was married to Prince von Leiningen and that marriage was as far as I know regarded as equal...

My point is also the same as yours regarding Bagration family...but again,they were Russian subjects just like other Russian noble families that were descendants of Rurik dynasty...formal recognition of Bagration family as equal would lead to recognition of many other families who were male line descendants of former ruling dynsty(regardless of time when they ruled) and this could open a Pandora's box in Russian nobility...

My thought is that Emperor Nicholas II understood the whole system which was very complex and unofficially recognized Bagrations as equal by allowing their member to sign as "Prince Grudzinsky" but didn't want to recognize them officially in order to avoid many other families with same qualifications who would want the same based on the facts that they are also Russian subjects and also descendants of former ruling family...

That's why I said that out of all families with whom Russian male dynasts made union after Revolution Bagration is the one with most chances to be equal as a former ruling ROYAL family(makes them stand out compared to,for example Strudza's who were just former ruling PRINCELY family like many other who became Russian subjects later) who reigned until 19th century...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 14, 2010, 08:37:31 AM
If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2010, 06:26:12 PM
As long as there are pretenders this subject will not run out of steam for sure...it is unlikely that they will ever reinstate a ruling family,but can you imagine "the fight" if one person from old noble family is elected as an Emperor...every other family would try to put their member to the throne and there would be much more pretenders than there are today from just one exiled family...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 14, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
Not quite:
The new ruling from Nicholas II following discussions with Tatiana's father resulted in the much disputed edict that implied that unlike a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess a Prince or Princess of the blood could marry unequally - the debate has always been whether such a marriage enabled the said Prince or Princess to pass their rights to the issue of such a union.
However like his niece Irena, Tatiana was required to renounce her rights to the succession on her marriage which implied that they couldn't.

Effectively the Bagration's were not regarded as equal in in pre revolutionary Russia but Nicholas didn't believe that such a marriage should deprive Tatiana of her rank as a Princess of Russia just her rights to the succession.

I get the impression that Vladimir's view before and after his marriage was that the Romanov's being dispossessed of their throne put them technically in the same bracket as the Bagrations!


It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 14, 2010, 06:57:56 PM
If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Belochka on April 15, 2010, 06:27:18 AM
If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.

The monarchy has had its run in Russia. There is absolutely not one rational reason why it should become part of Russia's political landscape again.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 15, 2010, 07:52:36 AM
Kmerov
 
This has become a boring subject, and it is like flogging a dead horse. Most people will agree with me. It has become an endless and boring debate. My humblest apologies if you do not agree with me. Everything runs out of steam eventually.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 15, 2010, 08:27:13 AM
If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.

The monarchy has had its run in Russia. There is absolutely not one rational reason why it should become part of Russia's political landscape again.  

Yes, I understand and agree with you 100 %. But my post was in regard to a poster finding a discussion in this thread about "GDss" Maria Vladimirovna boring, but at the same time was giving his opinion on the matter, and thus continuing the discussion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 15, 2010, 09:00:55 AM
Kmerov
 
This has become a boring subject, and it is like flogging a dead horse. Most people will agree with me. It has become an endless and boring debate. My humblest apologies if you do not agree with me. Everything runs out of steam eventually.

Whether I agree or not about the subject being boring and like flogging a dead horse is not the issue.
If one finds a subject or a thread boring, then the most logical (at least to me) thing to do is not to post in the thread, which was why I wrote too you. I find many threads boring beyond words (and this discussion too sometimes), and therefore I don't post in these threads. If other people find it interesting enough to post it's their choice, unless a moderator for what ever reason feels the need to intervene.

Many people posting about MV and about her "rights" also give their opinions about the Succession Laws and how to read them, which was being done here. If you personally find discussions about this and MV in general boring and irrelevant, simply ignore the thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on April 15, 2010, 09:04:17 AM
The argument will never cease, unless someone actually ascends the throne. There are those who support her, those who do not and those who might support someone else. The argument is endless and everyone will have a view, such as mine being that we should adhere to the wish of HIH GD Michael in his manifesto of 1917. However, reading the threads on the GD and others I have learnt a great deal about the succession question which I would not have learnt elsewhere, so there is always a good side to things.

I promise it has not run out of steam, just needs stoking from time to time to liven up the embers.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on April 15, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
The argument will never cease, unless someone actually ascends the throne. There are those who support her, those who do not and those who might support someone else. The argument is endless and everyone will have a view, such as mine being that we should adhere to the wish of HIH GD Michael in his manifesto of 1917. However, reading the threads on the GD and others I have learnt a great deal about the succession question which I would not have learnt elsewhere, so there is always a good side to things.

I promise it has not run out of steam, just needs stoking from time to time to liven up the embers.

You are right and that will never happend. And yes, discussions like these can sometimes help to at least understand some of the succession laws and clear up mistakes made about what the Pauline laws actually said. Whether or not you feel they are relevant after 1917, which is another matter.

My position is as stated many times that MV is Head of the Romanov Family, and as such is the Romanov heir to a defunct throne. Not the most relevant issue of the world today, but sometimes fun to discuss, nothing more, nothing less.

As regards to GD Mikhail Alexandrovich's manifesto, I feel many things about the way it came about and the aftermath, for which I could go on and on, but basically I don't feel that the manifesto is relevant to who is Head of the Family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: TimM on April 15, 2010, 03:12:48 PM
I think that if, and that is a big IF, the monarchy ever does come back in Russia, it will be a constitutional monarchy, like the British one.  The Tsar will be a figurehead, and will have no more political power than Queen Elizabeth II does.  The days of absolute monarchies in Europe are long over, and they won't be coming back.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: PAVLOV on April 19, 2010, 09:22:15 AM
O. K. I am going to stir the pot. I think Prime Minister Putin would make a good Tsar. He is practically the Tsar already, all but in name.
He has Russia firmly under his thumb and appears to know what he is doing. Russians appear to think that he does anyhow, and he does not suffer fools. He also deals with situations firmly and promptly, and the Russian Orthodox Church has respect fo him.

So in the highly unlikely event.........
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Michael HR on April 20, 2010, 07:42:28 AM
Interesting...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: TimM on April 20, 2010, 04:25:22 PM
So would be be Vladimir I?  Or have there been other Tsars with that name?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on April 20, 2010, 04:48:39 PM
There were a lot of Dukes or leaders of the Principalities with Vladimir name in old and more modern pre-Romanovs Russian history.

Btw, I know only one "Tsar" (at least de facto) with this name. This is the former KGB Officer (retired Lieutenant Colonel) and the second Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich P.;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Constantinople on April 21, 2010, 01:23:04 PM
if monarchy was ever reinstated, I think that GD Maria Vlad would be exactly the wrong person to be he new monarch.  She is unctuous and superficial.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on April 21, 2010, 08:17:12 PM
Actually he did and it was very clear that Nicholas II believed that legally the marriage was morganatic just unlike the marriages of his brother and uncle Paul it wasn't a disgrace.
It's worth looking at the law on this issue:
Alexander III in 1889 issued a decree that made any marriage by any member of the Imperial Family to anyone of non royal status illegal and invalid.
In 1911 Nicholas amended the law again:
The Lord Emperor has seen fit to permit marriages to persons not possessing corresponding rank of not all Members of the Imperial Family, but only of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial...Princes as well as Princesses of the Blood Imperial, upon contracting a marriage with a person not possessing corresponding rank, shall personally retain the title and privileges which are theirs by birth, with the exception of their right to succession from which they shall have abdicated before entering the marriage. In relation to the categorization of the marriages of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial, the Lord Emperor has seen fit to recognize only two categories in these marriages: (a) equal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and (b) unequal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and will not recognize any other categories.
Also the original rules were left in place within the Fundamental laws = that a person of the Imperial family who has entered into a marriage alliance with a person not possessing corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, cannot pass on to that person, or to any posterity that may issue from such a marriage, the rights which belong to the Members of the Imperial family.
there is a difference between that note and what was enshrined in law which only emphasies that Grand Duke's can't marry unequally at all.

And this one:
Children born of a marriage between a member of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, shall have no right of succession to the Throne.
In this case Tatiana was required to renounce not because of tradition but because of the 1911 decree - unless she renounced she wouldn't receive consent to marry -  "Her Highness the Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna has presented to Us over Her own sign manual, a renunciation of the right to succession to the Imperial Throne of All the Russias belonging to Her as a member of the Imperial House,"
What Nicholas II said is a matter of conjecture as is his behaviour at the wedding itself - but Tatiana like Nicholas' niece Irena renounced their rights on marrying unequally in return they retained their style and titles however their children were not regarded as Russian Dynasts due to the morganatic nature of their parents marriage.

It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Ilias_of_John on April 30, 2010, 12:18:31 AM
 
There were a lot of Dukes or leaders of the Principalities with Vladimir name in old and more modern pre-Romanovs Russian history.

Btw, I know only one "Tsar" (at least de facto) with this name. This is the former KGB Officer (retired Lieutenant Colonel) and the second Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich P.;)

I thought he was a higher rank than a Lt. Colonel...... ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: kmerov on May 08, 2010, 07:42:02 PM
Actually he did and it was very clear that Nicholas II believed that legally the marriage was morganatic just unlike the marriages of his brother and uncle Paul it wasn't a disgrace.
It's worth looking at the law on this issue:
Alexander III in 1889 issued a decree that made any marriage by any member of the Imperial Family to anyone of non royal status illegal and invalid.
In 1911 Nicholas amended the law again:
The Lord Emperor has seen fit to permit marriages to persons not possessing corresponding rank of not all Members of the Imperial Family, but only of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial...Princes as well as Princesses of the Blood Imperial, upon contracting a marriage with a person not possessing corresponding rank, shall personally retain the title and privileges which are theirs by birth, with the exception of their right to succession from which they shall have abdicated before entering the marriage. In relation to the categorization of the marriages of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial, the Lord Emperor has seen fit to recognize only two categories in these marriages: (a) equal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and (b) unequal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and will not recognize any other categories.
Also the original rules were left in place within the Fundamental laws = that a person of the Imperial family who has entered into a marriage alliance with a person not possessing corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, cannot pass on to that person, or to any posterity that may issue from such a marriage, the rights which belong to the Members of the Imperial family.
there is a difference between that note and what was enshrined in law which only emphasies that Grand Duke's can't marry unequally at all.

And this one:
Children born of a marriage between a member of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, shall have no right of succession to the Throne.
In this case Tatiana was required to renounce not because of tradition but because of the 1911 decree - unless she renounced she wouldn't receive consent to marry -  "Her Highness the Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna has presented to Us over Her own sign manual, a renunciation of the right to succession to the Imperial Throne of All the Russias belonging to Her as a member of the Imperial House,"
What Nicholas II said is a matter of conjecture as is his behaviour at the wedding itself - but Tatiana like Nicholas' niece Irena renounced their rights on marrying unequally in return they retained their style and titles however their children were not regarded as Russian Dynasts due to the morganatic nature of their parents marriage.

It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.
[/quote]

Yes, the law stated that Grand Dukes could not enter into a morganatic marriage, and that was the only thing that Ncholas legally changed. Princesses could renounce their rights to the throne either when marrying a foreign prince, or when entering a morganatic marriage. Nicholas never made a public statement that Tatiana Konstantinovnas marriage was morganatic, but added to the confusion by his private comments. However the way her rennounciation came about, and the status of the Bagrationi family indicates that it was seen as a morganatic marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 11, 2010, 02:37:52 PM
A site with photos of George Mikhailovich, Maria Vladimirovna, and their family, several of which I had not seen before:

http://www.spletnik.ru/blogs/govoryat_chto/3626_cesarevich_i_velikij_knyaz_georgij_mixajlovich

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9858/1202cd6f351b.jpg) (http://img405.imageshack.us/i/1202cd6f351b.jpg/)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RealAnastasia on September 11, 2010, 11:37:36 PM
Hey! She was VERY pretty when she was younger!  :o Thanks for the link. Some of the pics it shows are awesome.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on September 12, 2010, 08:28:18 PM
A site with photos of George Mikhailovich, Maria Vladimirovna, and their family, several of which I had not seen before:

http://www.spletnik.ru/blogs/govoryat_chto/3626_cesarevich_i_velikij_knyaz_georgij_mixajlovich

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9858/1202cd6f351b.jpg) (http://img405.imageshack.us/i/1202cd6f351b.jpg/)


Not exactly a fan, but I see a little bit of Liz Taylor in there! Very pretty. :) Nice to see those pics of Georgiy, is he engaged yet?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: RealAnastasia on September 12, 2010, 11:33:07 PM
Yeah! You've said it. Yesterday, when I saw the pic I began to wnder where had I seen this face before. Maria Vladimirovna made me think of a person to whom I cannot put a name. Until today, when you noticed a slighest likeness to Liz Taylor.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: susana on September 15, 2010, 01:43:01 AM
Back up to the question of legitimacy vs "emotionality (real laws of succession) the majority of the expatriot Romanovs aligned with the Dowager Empress in support of Nicholasha and following his death Prince Nicholas Romanovitch to the present. Its amusing to hear support of Prince Nicholas referred to as emotional--he is recognized by Queen Elizabeth II as the Head of the House of Romanov. She certainly can't be accused of being emotional and her recognition came at an official ceremony when she STOOD to be introduced, a favor reserved for rulers.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Teddy on September 16, 2010, 01:16:38 AM
It is not for Queen Elizabeth II to choose or recognise a head of the Romanov family
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: mcdnab on September 16, 2010, 07:23:46 AM
I thought this had been discussed before -
The Queen invariably stands to greet guests she has excellent manners - but it means nothing in terms of recognition and is irrelevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 16, 2010, 05:28:50 PM
Thank you for pointing that out, mcdnab! 

HM The Queen had Grand Duchesses Leonida and Maria to tea at the Palace while the latter was at Oxford.

This letter may also be of interest. ; )

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6053/4elisabeth.jpg) (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/4elisabeth.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: slavona on October 21, 2010, 09:17:08 AM
A stupid question. Was her marriage arraged for a title for her child? Why did they divorce so soon? And if it was for a title, why him?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 14, 2010, 05:07:16 PM
Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/739/5247l.jpg) (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/5247l.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 24, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
With the support of Patriarch Kyril, Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke George met with Pope Benedict XVI during the course of their recent visit to Italy.

Further info and pictures of the visit -
http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/?p=43856
http://nikolaevec.livejournal.com/268709.html
http://www.monarquiaconfidencial.com/pg_Articulo.aspx?IdObjeto=2601
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: ashanti01 on December 28, 2010, 08:07:20 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/mvlad001-1.jpg)
Maria Vladimirovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 22, 2012, 04:51:04 PM
Paul Gilbert reports that a wealthy Russian former MP has founded a monarchist political party.

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna does not think that it's a good idea.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1438843/russian-monarchists-launch-own-party-romanovs-protest/

The last paragraph is a real hoot! A Pacific retreat for monarchists:

"On Wednesday, the Russian Ministry of Justice reported on its website that the Monarchist party was officially registered on June 25 this year.
Its chairman, 46-year-old millionaire Bakov is known for having founded a virtual state – the Russian Empire – located on a coral atoll called Suvorov near the Cook Islands in the Pacific Ocean. According to its website,  those willing to become nationals of the state, may apply for a passport via e-mail for the price of just 1000 roubles (about $US 31)."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 22, 2012, 08:16:17 PM
Near the Cook Islands ? It is part of that that country and the claims of Bakov have been denied by that [legitimate] government. Still, it could be fun to have a passport with the Romanov eagle and the hammer & sickle. Odd arrangement.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2012, 12:55:45 PM
Where does Maria live these days ? I heard she and her rich sister had a spat after their mother died.
Title: Ms. Elena Kirby Moore de Bagration
Post by: QueenEna1887 on May 31, 2013, 02:25:10 PM
I know she is not a member of the House of Romanov but she is the half-sister of the claimant Maria Vladimirovna. I was wondering if anyone had information of Mrs. Elena Louise Kirby or a way to contact her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 02, 2013, 08:07:12 AM
I know that she still lives in Spain, but not close with her imperial sister. She is the one with the money (heiress to the Kirby fortune) and not Maria.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: grandduchessella on June 03, 2013, 02:46:59 PM
She used that money for quite sometime to help out her mother and her half-sister. Didn't it stop sometime ago? Maybe with Leonida's death? I believe GD George is her godson and, since she is unmarried, perhaps the fortune (or whatever remains of it) will go to him. She, Countess Dvinskaya, wasn't Sumner Kirby's only child though, she had a half-sister Gloria. I don't know about any other nephews or nieces she may have that she may choose to leave money to--or give it all to charity.

She can be seen in various online photos--mostly at Bagration events. According to Marlene, there was a romance between her and her stepfather's nephew Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia in the 60s .
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 03, 2013, 05:26:13 PM
Yes. According to one Spanish Royal writer, after a quarrel (after their mother died) between them, she threw her imperial half sister out. The sisters were not on talking basis.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on June 06, 2013, 10:14:47 PM
She gave her half sis the boot alright...its about time all they did was mooch off of her...But I would like to contact her...she seems like a nice person.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2013, 02:00:35 AM
Yes. It was a long gravy train. As long as Leonida was alive, there was an understanding...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on June 13, 2013, 08:47:00 AM
Well looks like I found Ms. Kirby!!! this would be rather interesting ...I dont know if I should post it...but here is the link http://www.infobel.com/es/spain/people/madrid-28035/guisando/kirby_bragation-elene/583070400....I doubt she wouldn't want to be found if she were published.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 13, 2013, 10:18:50 AM
The link does not work. :-(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 13, 2013, 11:03:45 AM
You had to delete de I in the end

http://www.infobel.com/es/spain/people/madrid-28035/guisando/kirby_bragation-elene/583070400
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 14, 2013, 01:35:48 AM
Got it ! I don't think there was a photo of three together (mother & 2 daughters).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 14, 2013, 09:09:12 AM
You reckon?

(http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2163/herederos32oo9.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 14, 2013, 12:02:44 PM
Thanks ! Got one of father Kirby ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: NickNicholsonNYC on July 15, 2013, 01:24:21 PM
Interestingly the Guisando 17 address in Madrid has been the family address for over 40 years.  GDKW and GDLG lived there as well.  It is still GDMW's published address.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: NickNicholsonNYC on July 15, 2013, 01:26:41 PM
(http://macedonsky.narod.ru/images/big_smk.jpg)

Sumner Moore Kirby
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 15, 2013, 11:45:09 PM
The rich American guy Leonida married and father of Helen Kirby.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: NickNicholsonNYC on July 20, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
That's him.  Also, an interesting picture of the "Countess Dvinskaya" (At Left.  She now goes by her maiden name of Dona Elena Kirby de Bagrationi) in Madrid at a reception held by the Royal Family of Georgia to distribute honors.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GUR3ARsv8Cs/UeU2OaVC5WI/AAAAAAAANc8/DSpoeHPmoYY/s1600/Captura%2520de%2520pantalla%25202013-07-14%2520a%2520las%252002_51_53.jpg)

You can read all about it (in Spanish) here: http://docelinajes.blogspot.com/2013/07/imposicion-de-condecoraciones-de-la.html?spref=fb&m=1 (http://docelinajes.blogspot.com/2013/07/imposicion-de-condecoraciones-de-la.html?spref=fb&m=1)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: THERRY on February 09, 2014, 11:20:49 AM
(http://i39.tinypic.com/ff2s85.jpg)
my scan from an old magazine
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: THERRY on February 09, 2014, 11:21:37 AM
(http://i40.tinypic.com/245g7px.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: bongo on February 09, 2014, 09:05:02 PM
The Guisando 17 address appears as a demolished vacant lot on Google Streetview. So they must have moved.

(Interestingly, the tiny brick house in Ontario that Grand Duchess Olga and husband moved to after quitting the farm still exists and can be seen on Streetview.)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Превед on March 29, 2014, 07:45:19 PM
According to an article in The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/qa-romanoff-descendant-getting-to-know-russia/492885.html), Georgiy Mikhailovich has just resigned from his Norilsk Nickel job. He is...
" working on creating a public affairs and communications platform in Brussels, called Romanoff & Partners, which will specialize on advancing the corporate and public interests of businesses throughout the EU, not only those in Russia or Eastern Europe, bridging my life experiences in my adopted country with those in my true homeland, Russia — much in the way that Peter the Great bridged the gap between East and West in his own time."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: wetz07 on March 30, 2014, 07:14:14 AM
Does anyone know if the Grand Duchess Leonida, wife of Grand Duke Vladimir (son of Cyril and Ducky), is still living? If not, where is she buried? Also, I know that her first husband, an American by the name of Mr. Kirby, died in a concentration camp during WWII. What were the circumstances surrounding this? Did she have children by her first marriage and if so, what became of them? I don't know if this question was answered by Princess Leonida Romanov, née Bagration passed away few years ago. I don't share the opinion of considering her a royal, even nobody knows if her marriage was under the Orthodox Church valid. Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich married as everybody knows the ex wife Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg from Ernest Ludwig Gross Herzog von Hesse Darmstand und bei Rhein, the Empress' brother. The couple were for a time forbidden to return to Russia. Ducky was a first cousin from her husband, through her mother Grand Duchess Maria Aleksandrovna, sister of Grand Duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich, according with the Orthodox Church this was not allow, unless an exception was accepted, which wasn't the case. Who convinced Tsar Nicholas II to let them return to Russia was Kirill's mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the elder. The behaviour of Grand Duke Kirill was horrendous, especially during the revolution. When his cousin was still the Emperor he joined forces with Kerensky and the Duma and ordered his regiment to wave red flags instead of the Imperial one. He betrayed his cousin the Tsar and he betrayed his other cousin Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandovich, who was the direct Heir to the Throne, considering that Nicholas II abdicated for him and for his son. Kirill urged the Duma to forced a new abdication this time from Mischa. Mikhail Aleksandrovich was living in an apartment at Millonaia street behind the Winter Palace and he was threatened by the Duma to be send to prison if he didn't abdicate. his wife countess Brasova was horrified, the same day she saw how a good friend of Mischa Prince Volkonsky was murdered by the troops. The entire imperial family starting by the Dowager Empress rejected any claim to the throne by Kirill even one of his brothers was completely against him. Not a single Grand Duke or Imperial Prince who had survive the massacred recognized him as "Tsar". Funny for Vladimir Putin the former KGB colonel and Russian tyrant his grandson Hohenzollern is the "heir", which is completely absurd. My parents were friends from Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the younger who lived in Buenos Aires at a beautiful but tiny apartment near Recoleta, Maria Pavlovna hated Kirill like her brother Dmitri Pavlovich both considered him a traitor. Princess Ekaterina Ioannovna of Russia who lived in Buenos Aires and afterwards she moved to Montevideo with the entire Konstantinovichi branch condemned every try of Kirill first, his son Vladimir second and Maria now to be "Russian emperor or empress". They aren't and they don't deserve it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 30, 2014, 11:57:36 PM
Lets just say that this branch of the family wasn't universally liked due to many reasons.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Превед on May 09, 2014, 04:45:43 PM
Georgiy Mikhailovich's new firm: http://www.romanoffpartners.com/ (http://www.romanoffpartners.com/)

His services in "bridging the gap between Russia and Europe" should be more needed than since the Cold War.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 10, 2014, 01:16:53 AM
is he capable of that though ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Превед on May 10, 2014, 04:43:36 AM
is he capable of that though ?

Yes, sounds a bit grandiose, doesn't it, especially the reference to Peter the Great!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 10, 2014, 06:25:16 AM
Indeed...Not sure if he have the power to deliver...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: grandduchessella on May 25, 2014, 06:17:25 AM
So after Prince Charles's remarks (privately uttered) comparing Putin to Hitler, GDss Maria V has weighed in:

Alexander Zakatov, head of the Romanov administration, said Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna backed Mr Putin in his dispute with Ukraine over Crimea...“The Grand Duchess has offered her reasoning why the Crimea had always been with Russia,” he said. “It was a tragic mistake of the 20th century that suddenly Crimea was out of Russia.”
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 25, 2014, 09:19:12 PM
She is trying to gain political capital with Putin. Like her grandmother Ducky, she could be political & controversial.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on October 04, 2014, 05:12:42 AM
Better photo of Maria Vladimirovna's tiara:

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/MariaVlad_zpsf58fb14a.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/auersperg22/media/MariaVlad_zpsf58fb14a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2014, 03:00:59 AM
Lovely bride. New Tiara ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Lovely bride. New Tiara ?

I think it's the same tiara she wore with rubies for an official picture.This one is with pearls...see my post #52(page 4) in this thread for that picture!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2014, 09:53:13 PM
Thanks. Haven't seen her wear that for awhile. Maybe it was sold. Does not seem to belonged to either Grandmother Ducky or Great Grandmothers Miechen or Marie Coburg.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Превед on August 30, 2015, 12:22:39 PM
Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovich has an un-ebenbürtig girlfriend, Rebecca Bettarini, the daughter of the Italian ambassador to Belgium.
See pics (https://www.google.com/search?q=grand+duke+george+mikhailovich+girlfriend&biw=1366&bih=645&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIsZyFkKjRxwIVRRAsCh3ZKwHH#tbm=isch&q=Rebecca+Bettarini)

How does matushka cope!?

A shame that it's more proof he isn't gay. I would have preferred the whole circus to end on a natural, liberal note.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marie Valerie on August 31, 2015, 12:16:45 PM
Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovich has an un-ebenbürtig girlfriend, Rebecca Bettarini, the daughter of the Italian ambassador to Belgium.
See pics (https://www.google.com/search?q=grand+duke+george+mikhailovich+girlfriend&biw=1366&bih=645&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIsZyFkKjRxwIVRRAsCh3ZKwHH#tbm=isch&q=Rebecca+Bettarini)

How does matushka cope!?

A shame that it's more proof he isn't gay. I would have preferred the whole circus to end on a natural, liberal note.


MV can't let them marry... Her claim for head of the house is only because of "Ebenbürtigkeit".

Georgi and Rebecca will end like Gustav, Hereditary Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and Carina Axelsson... or he get a royal bride instead.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Romafan96 on September 05, 2015, 07:31:32 AM
I don't really concern myself with the issue of pretenders and who is rightfully head of the house of Romanov. It's very unlikely a monarchy will ever return to Russia anyway. And even if it did, who's to say that a Romanov will rule? Maybe a new dynasty (like House of Putin!) will rise up and take over just like the Romanovs took over from the Ruriks after the Time of Troubles. Maria is pursuing a throne that will never be hers.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Превед on October 23, 2015, 09:18:28 AM
Князь Георгий Романов и его девушка посетили Бал Ривьеры в Португалии
В конце сентября князь Георгий и его девушка Ребекка Беттарини посетили Бал Ривьеры в Лисабонне, Португалия.
На королевских инофорумах заговорили о скорой  помолвке.
=
Prince Georgiy Romanov and his girlfriend attended the Bal de la Riviera in Portugal.
At the of September Prince Georgiy Romano and his girlfriend Rebecca Bettarini attended the Bal de la Riviera in Lissabon, Portugal.
On royalty forums there are rumours about an upcoming engagement.

See http://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/3435336.html (http://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/3435336.html)
The ball was hosted by Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans and the guest of honour was Prince Albert of Monaco.
Russian commentators are saying that Prince Georgiy and his girfriend looked "Прям цыганский барон", straight out of the Gypsy Baron.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 14, 2020, 05:00:59 PM
GD George's girlfriend converted to the russian-orthodox church.
I Think a Engagement will Follow soon.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
Post by: Marc on July 17, 2020, 06:04:17 AM
I think so too, but I wonder how will they resolve succession problems that will arrive after his wedding...

There would be many pretenders arousing if you disqualify "equal marriage"  requirement...as there are many male line descendants and also some other female line pretenders (Prince zu Leiningen and his wife who also converted to Orthodoxy).

We must wait and see what will happen...