Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: RealAnastasia on June 05, 2005, 07:30:51 PM

Title: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 05, 2005, 07:30:51 PM
Hi!:

       I was wondering about AA "story", and I have a little question to ask here...Since I have not so many books to read in this issue in my country, I wanted to ask this question to you all: Wich was AA story about the massacre night in the Ipatiev house cellar   ? I read in Blair Lovell book (I don't like it, but it is the only one I could get about AA ) that she never told  the whole story  to anyone, but little sketches of it, and sometimes, totally different stories. We also know that she even told to Summers and Mangold that there never was any IF murder, and that she had been rescued along with her mother and sisters.

   I 'm searching for all   different stories that AA told to different people about HOW the IF was murdered, and HOW she (assuming Anastasia's identity) was injured, before being rescued. I'm not meaning how she was rescued, for she tell it pretty well, even if it is a barely convincing story...

   LITTLE (BUT IMPORTANT) NOTE: I'm not discussin here if AA was FS or Anastasia. It's not an "identity thread" ,not one to read how fool I am asking questions about pretenders since we have DNA proofs. It's only to know what AA told about "this awful night" being this fake, semi-fake or not fake at all...But, well. I suppose this note will be in vain, and all people will use it to discusse DNA, FS , GD Anastasia and such... ;) ;D

  I know, that Bear will like this thread!  :)

RealAnastasia.

 
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 05, 2005, 08:16:33 PM
RA...don't put yourself down....we are sort of like a family in here...trying to understand issues....making answers to questions as best we can....some folk are trouble(OK...ME from time-to-time)....but that's how it is in families...we squabble and squawk....but I think we respect each other....
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: Lanie on June 05, 2005, 08:20:27 PM
Well, don't look at Blair Lovell's book for anything "concrete" regarding Anna Anderson, period--since she was senile, and Blair Lovell made up a LOT of the stuff in the book.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: lexi4 on June 05, 2005, 08:22:49 PM
Good question and could be a fun topic RA. I will look through my books, but I seem to recall that AA never really discussed what happened in the cellar.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 05, 2005, 09:27:00 PM
You are right, Lanie: when I read Blair Lovell book I 'm always very dissapointed. My personnal idea is that this poor guy was as crazy as Anna Anderson herself was. Whoever she was (even Anastasia), she was a crazy lady...But, of course Blair Lovell was worse.  :-/ , and this book is not an historical one. I can't read it as a serious source.

          I use to laugh when I read that Blair Lovell said he isn't an "Anna Anderson cultist". He wanted to be a critical historian! The poor man.  :-[

          RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: Lanie on June 05, 2005, 11:05:31 PM
Quote
You are right, Lanie: when I read Blair Lovell book I 'm always very dissapointed. My personnal idea is that this poor guy was as crazy as Anna Anderson herself was. Whoever she was (even Anastasia), she was a crazy lady...But, of course Blair Lovell was worse.  :-/ , and this book is not an historical one. I can't read it as a serious source.

           I use to laugh when I read that Blair Lovell said he isn't an "Anna Anderson cultist". He wanted to be a critical historian! The poor man.  :-[

           RealAnastasia.


I read that after I read Nicholas and Alexandra since I thought it would be about the REAL Anastasia... at least I had a good fun time reading it, laughing my head off!  ;D
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2005, 06:48:46 AM
Quote
You are right, Lanie: when I read Blair Lovell book I 'm always very dissapointed. My personnal idea is that this poor guy was as crazy as Anna Anderson herself was. Whoever she was (even Anastasia), she was a crazy lady...But, of course Blair Lovell was worse.  :-/ , and this book is not an historical one. I can't read it as a serious source.

           I use to laugh when I read that Blair Lovell said he isn't an "Anna Anderson cultist". He wanted to be a critical historian! The poor man.  :-[

           RealAnastasia.


It is sad, but I agree.

But we don't have to  pity her too much, because in the end, Anna Anderson got what she wanted, and that's more than the Romanovs or most of us will ever get. There is a quote of FS that someone said she always said, she didn't want to be buried in a one horse town, she wanted to die a famous actress.

And so she did ;)
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 11:15:07 AM
I have a lot of books but just a few on Anna Anderson, since I've never have taken her as a serious claimant.  In  fact, I am  still wondering if she may. also,  have been someone other than FS.

I don't recall AA giving us through various people, or directly on any interview any details about that night accept the part about being placed in a cart.... and there were two brothers who rescued her.

Sometime ago,  we talked about the list of guards and if there were two brothers with our without the name Tschaikovsky and Penny Wilson gave us a list.   The list  no longer is posted, but he seems there were one or two sets of brothers and two who were cousins.

Annie, I think it was,  created a thread about AA's story of treking from Ekakterinburg to Budapest in the time period in which AA claimed to have traveled  and if it could have been accomplished.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1108091391;start=0#0

Let me pull out some of those books and see what I can find.

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 11:46:10 AM
Summers and Mangold who did talk to AA wrote p. 237:

"...The greatest weakness to her claim, from the very start of her story in Berlin, has been that she failed to explain convincingly how she alone survived the massacre of her family in Ekaterinburg."

p. 239

"...True to form her own comments on the fate of the family remain an enigma....

"In 1974, when we were with in in Virginia, she suddenly exlaimed:  "There was no massacre there.. But I cannot tell the rest."


AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 12:06:09 PM
James Blair Lovell's ANASTASIA, THE LOST PRINCESS p. 59:

"ANASTASIA maintained for years that she was left wounded and  unconscious.  As a result, she explained, she could never remember the events leading to her rescue..  All we can speculate is that someone whom she called Alexander Tschaikovsky--perhaps one of the guards at the Ipatieve House, perhaps one of the members of the group from the local soviet who met the truck later-- noticed she she was not dead.  In the confusion of the horror-filled hours, he managed to pull her into some underbrush, where she reamained hidden from view until he and his brother Serge could come back for her later."

On p. 67 the story about he escape on a cart is given.

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 12:43:09 PM
ANASTASIA by Peter Kurth p. 33 who doesn't say that AA had told him but a friend,  who's name Kurth doesn't give from what I see at a glance:

"...it was an accident...a very bad accident."  She paused.  "I don't know how to say exactly... But I fainted, everything was blue, and I saw stars dancing, and there was a great roar."

"Why were my dresses all bloody?"  she asked finally.  "Everything was full of blood... Yes, it was then..when the end came."

"For Anastasia, "the end" meant the night of July 16, 1918...."

"When a police inspector once remarked that she had been wearing soldier's boots on the last night in Ekaterinburg [p. 34], she cried out in sheer exasperation, "What is that man thinking of.  It's crazy.. We weren't supposed to be going anywhere, just into another room..."

Evidently, it was Baron von Kleist who drew up some kind of story and rescue.

And that seems about all we know until 1929 p. 35:

"...Anastasia could not recall how long her family had been held..... but she well remembered their helplessness and he "constant dread" they all had felt."

Jumped over to p. 37:

Here is what AA said to "her companion" [again just hearsay]:

"Everything was so sudden.  It all happened at once.  It came so quick, nobody could think.... It was late in the evening.  We were all in bed.  They just came and told us to get ready.  We had to dress and follow them.  We knew nothing---were just ordered to come along... I do not know what they told my father.  We were just ordered to go--to follow the soldiers.  Nobody could believe what was going to happen, and to this moment I do not know.  There is just one horrible picture in my mind.  I do not want to talk about it.  I must not think about it.."

The way this is written,  I can't quite tell who Anastasia's companion was when she told this story.  On p. 36 Kruth mentions Zinaida Tolstoy....  Perhaps someone else can make this point clearer.  

Kurth's web site:
http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: delle on June 06, 2005, 06:24:52 PM
I am new on this board, and generally find most of the
posts to be interesting and informative.

However, many posts about Anna Anderson as a 'crazy
old lady' are not based in fact, and often unbalanced.

We do not know what AA wanted most in life. We might
assume that she did not want a life of loneliness and
alienation. To assume she was 'crazy' because of the
DNA reports is absurd. How could anyone maintain a
charade for most of their lives, with so little gain? Now
how could a person with significant mental disturbance
do so? It is unlikely.

(I don't know who AA actually was)

Significantly traumatic events are seldom remembered
in the chronological manner that memories are encoded
and retrieved. Much will be missed in a recalling. and
the event is so devastating on a mental, emotional,
and phsiological level, that cognition is often imapired.

Delle  
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 06, 2005, 06:51:21 PM
With all respect...the DNA of AA did NOT match "ANY" known relation of the Czarist family...but it did match the DNA of known relations of FS(I feel like having this info put on t-shirts for convenience)....A poor,sad,mad woman with....'NOTHING" in her life except the charade that she was....someone....anyone....of interest and importence is what kept FS/AA going all those years....plus a few folk willing to indulge her delusion...
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 07:27:59 PM
Welcome Delle.

It's always nice to hear a new voice.

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: Georgiy on June 06, 2005, 07:33:27 PM
Whoever she was, i think she must have survived some kind of trauma - physical or mental, but not the trauma of the night of 16/17 July 1918 in a cellar in Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2005, 07:42:41 PM
Topic is not about AA being GD Anastasia but about the story AA, who was claiming to be GD Anastasia,  gave about the night of 16th in the Ipatiev House.

Does anyone have another source?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 06, 2005, 07:50:18 PM
Thank you, Bear: I read your posts with the natural pleasure with I read all your interesting messages. You are a REAL researcher, and you explain things so well. I'm sure you'll be an excellent historian.  :) I had already read the story about "I fainted, everything was blue and I saw stars dancing, and there was a great roar" and "My dresses were all bloody", etc...But I thought there was other similar or different stories.  ::)

  TO DELL: I'm one of these fools who believes in AA authenticity as Anastasia...But there is a fact: she was crazy, or at least, she had a sort of mental illness. Her life was plenty of ecxentric attitudes and sometimes she was mean and injuste with people who helped her in her claims. She was hard and agressive toward Baron Von Kleist, Inspector Grünewald, Annie Burr Jennings, Monica Miltitz and even Gleb Botkin. You must accept this. Blair Lovell took AA way to see things, and was always supporting her point of view. But she was mentally ill, and you can't deny it.  She was like this being or not Anastasia.  Actually, I 'm sorry for her. She was not buried in a little peasant village in Polland (If she was FS, I'm also open to this possibility), but she suffered a great deal in life ...

  I'm not a fantasizyng woman: I'd rather like all Tsar family would died in Ekaterinburg. Any survivor must have suffered a lot.  :-[

RealAnastasia.
                 
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2005, 08:59:24 AM
Quote
I am new on this board, and generally find most of the
posts to be interesting and informative.

However, many posts about Anna Anderson as a 'crazy
old lady' are not based in fact, and often unbalanced.


Well, she was Fransiska Schanskowska, who was declared legally insane in 1916. In her old age, she lived in squalor with dozens of cats and dogs and didn't vacuum her floor for 5 years (this is in one of the books about her life) She and her equally eccentric husband were real characters, well known in VA as they drove about in their ranshackeled station wagon full of garbage and dogs. I don't mean to be mean by saying this, hey I'm kind of weird myself. But it is not out of line to call her mentally unstable.

Quote
We do not know what AA wanted most in life. We might
assume that she did not want a life of loneliness and
alienation.


Actually, she had become a public figure, famous, with all the good and bad that brings. Even movie stars must deal with tabloids and paparazzi.

Quote
To assume she was 'crazy' because of the
DNA reports is absurd.


It's not because of the DNA. While the DNA proved she wasn't Anastasia, we could also assume she pretended all those years because she was sinsiter, or crooked, or greedy, or mean. I don't. I think she was unstable. The DNA only proved she wasn't Anastasia, so she had to have faked it for whatever reason.

Quote
How could anyone maintain a
charade for most of their lives, with so little gain? Now
how could a person with significant mental disturbance
do so? It is unlikely.


Oh no, on the contrary, there was much more to LOSE! If she gave up her claim, not only would she be publically humiliated, she could have faced charges of filing a false claim in court and be responsible for literally millions in fees and compensation for the havoc caused by her claim.

Also, when she married John Manahan in the 60s he asked her to sign a paper swearing she was GD Anastasia. So denying her claim would have cost her her husband! She had a legion of believers and supporters, and because of this she was able to have financial support. Not talking rich, just talking having all the bills paid and not having to work! Being Anastasia was literally a career.

When she is called mentally unstable, this is the kindest way to put it. Others would call her a liar and a con artist. I do believe there were those behind her who planned to use her claim for their own gain, and they did use her. The bottom line is, she wasn't Anastasia, so someone had to tell her all those things. I personally believe, and many disgree, that by her old age she came to actually believe she was Anastasia.

Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 08, 2005, 11:02:22 AM
I should rather imagine that she believed she was AN long before old age...In fairness to FS/AA...I DO NOT think she felt she was grifting anyone....I think she was a mentally unstable person who grabbed on to the first and only life line thrown her way in life....and she hung-on for dear life....for decades....
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: delle on June 08, 2005, 09:48:21 PM
Quote
Welcome Delle.

It's always nice to hear a new voice.

AGRBear



Thank you for the welcome.

Delle
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: lexi4 on June 08, 2005, 10:01:01 PM
Bear,
I have searched also for descriptions from AA about the night in the cellar and found nothing more than what you posted. She never really talked that much about it. I am not saying that AA escaped the cellar, I don't believe that. But I do think that if any of the IF escaped, it would not be something they would talk about, at least openly. Not to mention any defense mechanisms that might kick in just to help cope with the horror. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: delle on June 08, 2005, 10:19:32 PM
If there were in fact a survivor of that tragedy, they
could have suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder.
In PTSD the survivor often 'recalls' images and sensations in a very uncohesive manner. It is extremely
difficult (and often impossible) for them to integrate
what they have experienced-they fail to recover from
the traumatic event. Their experience becomes 'frozen.'

This is not to say that AA in fact experienced this event.
Only to clarify that any survivor-if there were one or
more, could have been affected for the rest of their
lives by the PTSD, and the inability to provide a narrative
of the events.

Delle
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 09, 2005, 12:16:52 PM
A person who has suffered a terrible trauma get stuck mentally and they can't seem to get away from that time frame and it seems they can't progress to the next stage of their life, even though time passes.

I've seen this happen to a person I know.  It's like this person's life is connected to a rubber band.  The person goes foreward then suddenly is snapped  backward into time, grows depressed, and has to work out of the depression which can take a hour or a year.  It's terrible to watch because no one can help.

The mind is such a mysterious place and sometimes, in this kind of case I mention,  it's a person's hell.  I've often thought AA's world was a lot like my friends.  

It isn't the same as being bi-polar, although, it does have many of the same symtoms.

Then, there is the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being the one who lived while the others perished.

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: lexi4 on June 09, 2005, 12:47:37 PM
Good points bear. I hadn't even thought about the guilt that would be associated with something like that.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: delle on June 09, 2005, 07:09:40 PM
Quote
A person who has suffered a terrible trauma get stuck mentally and they can't seem to get away from that time frame and it seems they can't progress to the next stage of their life, even though time passes.

I've seen this happen to a person I know.  It's like this person's life is connected to a rubber band.  The person goes foreward then suddenly is snapped  backward into time, grows depressed, and has to work out of the depression which can take a hour or a year.  It's terrible to watch because no one can help.

The mind is such a mysterious place and sometimes, in this kind of case I mention,  it's a person's hell.  I've often thought AA's world was a lot like my friends.  

It isn't the same as being bi-polar, although, it does have many of the same symtoms.

Then, there is the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being the one who lived while the others perished.

AGRBear



Great points. The analogy of the rubber band is an
excellent one. The person gets pulled back to the trauma repeatedly, and the suffering is re-traumatizing.

Also, the point about survivor guilt is a very good one.
This often can happen when there is no way to actually
work out emotionally and cognitively what has happened, and the more violent incidents often can
cause this.

With PTSD, there is a significantly higher rate of chronic
depression, and other disorders.

I have seen the effects in individuals I've known, and
I am a therapist.

Delle
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 09, 2005, 09:00:19 PM
Hi again, Delle:

                            Actually I steel believe in AA, and I suppose her trauma most have cause her to not tell what she suffered in this cellar (If she was Anastasia, of course), or to tell is in a very weird way.

                             I don't recall exactly in which TV show about AA I hear it, but I remember her, saying, almost in tears something over the lines of: "...It was awful...I can't tell you what happened...It's so dirty...so awful...please, no..." She clearly couldn't bear all her sufferings back then.  Maybe it was "the cellar trauma", perhaps, she was FS and she was recalling the accident where a work friend died. She had a trauma, anyway.

                               When I read AA statement in Blair Lovell book (I mean when she said "there was no massacre") the first thought I have was clearly: " There was a massacre in Ekaterinbourg; her own mind was denying it, for she didn't want this to happen..." Of course, you must remember very well AA words speaking about her escape: "I leave my mother behind...I left my mother alone...". Did you remember which family member she called out when she had her last attack in Germany: "Mama! Mama! Where is my mother?" And did you remember which member of her family she named when Tatiana Botkina give her a Photo Album about IF: "My Mother! My Mother!".

              She had a trauma...And whoever she was, she suffered a lot in her life.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 09, 2005, 09:05:01 PM
You said it better than I, Bear: AA "...had the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being one who lived while the others perished..." I think she was guilty especially concerning her mother's fate. Whoever her mother was, I suppose that's true.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 10, 2005, 10:21:05 AM
Orrrrrr...she was a mad woman who spent most of her adult life in a fantasy world....I'm sure she used every fibre of her being to "know"and "feel" what happened in that cellar....these "delusions-of grandeur"...were all she had...

And I know it annoys some folk...but one can't ignore the science...the independant testing of  3...yes,3...labs for DNA showed that AA had "NO" relation to known family of the IF...0...zilch...nada...none...But her DNA did match known relations of FS...Do we see...?

It's like finding a finger print on a glass at a crime scene and just saying..."No,I think we should just ignore that evidence....because I have this..."Feeling"....
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: lexi4 on June 10, 2005, 11:57:02 AM
Quote
Orrrrrr...she was a mad woman who spent most of her adult life in a fantasy world....I'm sure she used every fibre of her being to "know"and "feel" what happened in that cellar....these "delusions-of grandeur"...were all she had...

And I know it annoys some folk...but one can't ignore the science...the independant testing of  3...yes,3...labs for DNA showed that AA had "NO" relation to known family of the IF...0...zilch...nada...none...But her DNA did match known relations of FS...Do we see...?

It's like finding a finger print on a glass at a crime scene and just saying..."No,I think we should just ignore that evidence....because I have this..."Feeling"....


Well said. There can be no doubt that AA was not AN. So any comments that AA made about the night in the cellar would have come from her imagination. Pure fantasy.
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: AGRBear on June 10, 2005, 12:40:16 PM
We are talking about AA and what has been reported that she told people about the night in the basement.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 10, 2005, 05:49:34 PM
Folk all to often report the ramblings of FS/AA as if they were gospel truth...her "REAL" memories of terrible past events....and they were "NOT"....they were the twisted fantacies of a mad woman....I feel sorry for her...I doubt that the potential monies that some hoped for...perhaps in her name...meant diddle to FS/AA....she just "LOVED" being considered "SOMEONE" of interest and importance.....
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 10, 2005, 07:31:46 PM
Just your opinion...And my point of view is also this: just my opinion.

  Bear post a great message about all this poor woman suffering, in a psychologic point of view and I appreciate it, since I'm not very bright in psychologie issues.  ;D Your threads are always interesting , Bear, and we always learn something new reading them.

  And yes: AA was a crazy woman. That's for sure. Whoever she was her mind was ill. Nobody would deny it. But I don't think she had all she wanted. She didn't want notoriety, nor publicity: she was very agressive with journalist, and sometimes mean tovisitors, and even to her own supporters. No; she didn't have a nice life, and I wouldn't have liked to change my life to her own. Not at all. She lived without work...And so what? Her life was a nightmare; nobody loved her, and I suppose, she didn't love anyone . That's sad. Too sad.

 I repeat it: I don't know who this lady was, and if I would have been a Tzar daughter, I would like to have died in this cellar, along, with all my family. I believe AN survived, but I don't wish it. I said that I'm a romantic, and certainly it's more romantic to have a whole family dying together, rather than imagine that someone really escaped and lived a nightmare, awful life. I tryed to convince myself that all of them died, but I can't. I always have too many questions coming to my mind to think the case is closed. I know already I'm a stupid, a candide, a believer in Easter-Bunnies and all. But I just can't help it. Don't blame me.

RealAnastasia.

Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: etonexile on June 10, 2005, 07:38:47 PM
We don't "BLAME" you...it's all a bumpy fall down the rabbit hole...a la Alice....But AA "WAS" FS....and not AN...but that's...OK....we can all live with that...No one gets beaten up....And all the info about shoe sizes and lips and hair lines and ears...and....et al...are very interesting......
Title: Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 10, 2005, 09:52:17 PM
Quote
We don't "BLAME" you...it's all a bumpy fall down the rabbit hole...a la Alice....But AA "WAS" FS....and not AN...but that's...OK....we can all live with that...No one gets beaten up....And all the info about shoe sizes and lips and hair lines and ears...and....et al...are very interesting......



Perfect...I'm a great...idiot..I believe in gosths...I'm a Mme. Blavatsky student in spiritism school...Fool me...AA was a polish peasant...polish peasant...polish peasant...DNA....Any of them survived...Impossible...No way...Con artist...Gleb feed her with lots of infos...The Dalldorf nurses were all payed...Schwabe, Tolstaïa , Kleist and Leuchtenberg were stupid or con artist themselves...

Right. We supporters have all the same arguments and repeat them. And you, anti AA, have always the same arguments and repeat them everywhere too.

Not so bad...We'll speak in ten years or so.

RealAnastasia.