Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Carol_Shvybzyk on June 06, 2005, 08:06:48 PM

Title: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Carol_Shvybzyk on June 06, 2005, 08:06:48 PM
Hey guys,I'm new here.
I'm Carol,from Brazil,so I speak Portuguese,a lil' of Spanish and English.Any help you want to translate anything from Portuguese or to Portuguese,just call me :)
***
On the night of July 16-17, 1918, the massacre with the tsar's family left one of the most famous rumours of the history: someone survived.

My historian teacher told me once that on of the girls DID survived and came to live here,in South America - I think this girl he told me about must be that baby who survived from the massacre and came to Argentina...But don't you think it's strange to Alix get pregnant at the exile, between all the stress, after the death of Rasputin and afraid of another hemophiliac baby?
AND there's nothing on OTMA's diaries about their mother pregnancy...for me,this is probably bullshit.

There's another version,but less people know 'bout it:
only the tsar and Aleksey have been shot in the Ipatiev house, while Alix and the girls were kept alive.

For sure,we know Alix,Nicky and Olga were really shot and died in that night.
On Alexandra's skull there was a huge hole of nine millimeters in diameter,and another smaller hole on the other side of the skull - that indicates that the shot passed  through her head.
And, as the history goes, Nicky covered up Alexei's eyes with his hands, tryin' to protect his baby from fear, and another shot passed through his hands.
Olga rests in peace now,but what about Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia?

Back to the scene of the Yekaterinburg's massacre:
The murders were blind drunk,and two of then refused to kill the children.
The grand duchesses were kind of 'armored'.The kids were wearing a diamond-studded underwear so that the bullets bounced off for some reason and ricocheted.they had difficulty in penetrating a solid mass of large diamonds.One of the Bolshevik's officers tried to stab one of the girls on her chest but he couldn't,because of their underwear.

Maria and Anastasia were pressed up against the wall,squatting and covering their heads with their arms, and then two men fired at their heads. After a while, one of the girls were still alive and crying,covering her face with her arm.But them couldn't shoot anymore because the doors were opened and someone could listen on the streets.
But I wonder... And if the bodies were thrown still alive on the truck?
And so did they though.And checked.They shot the girls and the rest of the family while then were lying down,smashed their faces,did horrors.
She rests of the Romanovs shows us violence and mistreatment,even before they were death.Many,many bones were broken.
Between the smoke,all the blood,there were four girls,which have just turned to beautiful and amazing women.
At that night,in my opinion,they didn't murdered the royal family.They murdered four innocent girls, which showed in their short life a strong spirit, pure heart and
a unbelievable faith.

Back to Tatiana,Maria and Anastasia:
One of the body's around 5'4,which is the last recordable tall of Anastasia.This one is claimed to be Tatiana,but she was the tallest between the girls,around 5'11.So it's probably incorrect.
Maria was 2 inches taller than Anastasia,and the other body's about 5'6 or 5'7.
The spine of the shortest girl was also a lil' used,and had some back problems.We all known Anastasia loved to climb trees and she had back problems.
So,I believe there's no way that Marie or Anastasia survived.
And what about Alexei?HE WAS GOING TO BE LAST TSAR ONE DAY!!
Of course the Bolsheviks had more interest on him than on anyone of the girls!
(...)

Well,this is my opinion.That day left no survivors.I do want to believe that someone escaped from that savage,but the truth is that they didn't.The lost bodies must been cremated or something like that...
So the only thing we can do,by now,is pray for our beloved family.


xxx


Ps.Guys,this is my opinion.I don't want any controversy with anyone.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on June 06, 2005, 08:14:20 PM
Hi!
I don't think the Alix being pregnant part is true. I mean, under all that stress, wouldn't it be hard to have a kid? (This is a question, I don't know...)  And she was in her forties, although it could happen I guess.

I agree, neither Maria or Anastasia survived...in fact I don't think any of OTMA survived.

I think most of the Alexei claiments are a waste of time, I mean, he was so small, and weak (80 lbs.) and he couldn't walk. Considering he couldn't move, I am sure he got hit. And being a hemophiliac, the bleeding wouldn't have stopped. Scince it is said he got shot twice in the head, I think the body probably went into shock, and he bled to death.

This is just what I think.........

-Dana

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: etonexile on June 07, 2005, 09:42:43 AM
Most of the claims to be the august dead would be a disgusting insult to them...if they weren't so laughable...
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: lexi4 on June 07, 2005, 01:29:42 PM
There are numerous threads about this topic. You might want to check those.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Georgiy on June 07, 2005, 03:43:39 PM
In a sense they were all survivors, because if they hadn't met such a brutal end, they would have been more-or-less forgotten about (except Nicholas and Alexandra).
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 07, 2005, 08:33:14 PM
Dear Carol:

                      I'm an Historian from Argentina, and I'm very convinced that at least one of the girls survived. One or two of them. I'm an Anna Anderson supporter, but I'm also open minded to accept she was not the GD...If you show me another claimant so convincet to me as her. I hear about an "Anastasia" who was living in Argentina, in Buenos Aires, where I was born and I live, but I don't know her at all, nor know her name, nor how did she looked. When I was more younger (I'm 33 now) I believed that Anastasia and Maria escaped, but now I guess there were Anastasia and Tatiana, if another of the girls, besides Anastasia, escaped.

                       Feel free to email me and ask what you wants. I'm open to all theories and I like to analize them. Don't feel bad, nor rejected when you ask the question " Were there any survivors?" and some people shouts angrily to you: "No!!! Any possibility to it!!! All of them dead this night!!!". Some other people here would be kind with you and try to discuss you these matters in a civilizated way.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: etonexile on June 08, 2005, 11:30:57 AM
No one is shouting..."no"...that they all died and that all the so called heirs were mad for the most part....it is a small,quiet..."no"....DNA aside...the "Harlequin Romance" that any of them survived that killing-pit of a cellar is just that...a romantic fantacy....
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: lexi4 on June 08, 2005, 02:26:34 PM
Quote
No one is shouting..."no"...that they all died and that all the so called heirs were mad for the most part....it is a small,quiet..."no"....DNA aside...the "Harlequin Romance" that any of them survived that killing-pit of a cellar is just that...a romantic fantacy....

So what you are telling me is no one lived happily ever afte???? :( :( :(
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on June 08, 2005, 02:45:50 PM
Quote
So what you are telling me is no one lived happily ever afte???? :( :( :(

This was no "fairy tale". This was real life. Real life people were brutally shot, stabbed and beaten to death. Their bodies stripped naked and dropped into a mine, then buried again. No one survived, much less lived "happily ever after". Life isn't like that sometimes.
Sorry to be blunt, but it just is what it is.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 08, 2005, 03:35:19 PM
On every parade a bit of rain must fall but never fear, Bear is here to remind you that GD Anastasia and Alexei have vanished without a trace.

So, at this moment in time, no one  can tell us where the missing two were after that eventful night.

What is there left for us to do, now?   Let some of the poster have them buried, let some posters have them escape and let some poster just scratch their heads and ponder over  all the possibilities which might have been their fate.

Isben wrote about right's and wrong's:
"The thousand strands of the web of fate are so wildly, so strangely entangled.. that if a man searches into it, he sees right and the bloodiest wrong become as one."

The fate of the two was death.

We just don't know where it occured or when.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 08, 2005, 09:10:13 PM
Thank you, Bear, you are a good researcher and historian. I've already said it to you. Why? Because you let always an open door to the doubt, and doubt is the first historian quality.

  As Bear said, there's a fact: two corpses are missing from the common gravesite where they found the Romanov family and their servants. Where they are? I don't know for sure...You claims: "Sorry, all of them are dead; no way to anyone to survive. Understand that ALL OF THEM DIED" Well..I understand it: but where are their two bodies? You can't tell us where they are, for, as me and all the others you don't know the answer. You may said proudly: "There are somewhere in the Koptiaky Woods". Fine. It's possible. But they were not found. You may also said: "You'll never find them, for they MUST have been destroyed, blah, blah, blah..." Fine again. It's a great probability that is exactly this what happened. But we can't assure it. So; let us wonder about those TWO MISSING CORPSES. All right? I don't accept things for other people said me it's that way. I wants to discover facts by me. I'm an historian and I know what to do it, and that reality is not so easy to know. It would take years, even centuries to know a single fact. So we , people who didn't believe in this too easy argument ("They all dead this night") who was also the claim of the bolsheviks themselves...Odd enough.  You have the same opinion than Yermakov, Yurovsky, Mevdeved...Mmmmhhh.  ???

  I would want another arguments beside "DNA...Stop wondering...They are all dead...Stop thinking about it...Impossible to anyone to escape alive from this cellar...You are a dreamer, a fool, a candide, an idiot, etc, etc..." Learn to discuss things with convincent arguments. If you can't I will always think that someone survived.

 And, beware...I'm a AA supporter, but I'm open to the possibility she was not Anastasia (please, dont speak about DNA). read my post about her, and you'll find critics in them and wondering for truth, and not a blind faith in her.  >:(

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: lexi4 on June 08, 2005, 09:41:46 PM
Quote
So what you are telling me is no one lived happily ever afte???? :( :( :(

Please accept my apologies for my inapproproate remark. I did not intend to offend anyone.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: etonexile on June 08, 2005, 09:45:29 PM
Dear AA supporter...We shall always speak about DNA in this form....it is science....Would you have us disregard finger print evidence?...Yes...as far as we know...2 bodies are missing....bad Bolshies...next time they hurriedly butcher people....they should be more methodical....
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 09, 2005, 12:28:16 PM
Quote
...[in part]....
The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/bones5.jpg)

......

AGRBear


Two bodies are missing.

The missing bodies are GD Anastasia [or possibly Maria] and Alexei.

The area has been dug up and these two have NOT  been found near the mass grave as testified by Yurovskys....

You can't test bodies that are missing for DNA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 10, 2005, 08:03:15 PM
Quote
Dear AA supporter...We shall always speak about DNA in this form....it is science....Would you have us disregard finger print evidence?...Yes...as far as we know...2 bodies are missing....bad Bolshies...next time they hurriedly butcher people....they should be more methodical....


Well; speak about what you wanted to. But the only thing you have to said to all people who still believe in survivors is "DNA" and a serie of incoerents phrases plentyof "..." everywhere, between them (I'm not speaking about etonexile, for he is not the only one who does this. So don't apologize for yourself. Your opinion it's only a resume from other people ones). All people is able to think what they want, but for me, science is not God. The only God for me is God. And since we live among human beings and not little angels, science could be manipulate, faked, etc. We may believe that a proof was made (for papers tell us that it's like this) and that was not true, etc.

  History is a hard profession, and historian must always grin when a new about a history subject breaks out in great titles in the papers. Historians must KEEP researching in his/her own until he/she is satisfied about what he/she finds...And perhaps, that they "found" as the truth wasn't the truth at all and further researchs show you that you were absolutely wrong. The first Historian quality must be DOUBT. Without it, you can't be a researcher, and you will only a be a "paper and TV-News believer".

 I remember when I read (yes, in a newspaper  ;D) that it was "The End of Anastasia's mistery", for her corpse was in the common gravesite. Sometime later, I purchased a book about the issue...and I knew that there was a lot of controverse about who was there, and that scientist believed that Maria or Anastasia were missing from the gravesite. But of course, papers didn't said a single word about their mistake. It was not "The End of Anastasia's Mistery" at all.

  When I was more younger (16-20 years old), I didn't believe in AA, nor in any claimants. For me it was ridicoulous to think that someone could have survived to the massacre. But I haven't read much yet, and when I started to read, to see photos, to compare facts etc I was already convinced that someone survived. When the DNA results come out my first thought was: "These are fake". I'm a fool, a conspirative person, a crazy woman myself, an idiot who questiones science (Oh..That's not right. In fact I question only "scientist" and not science) , I'm this and that. I know. But I' convinced, and I'm not a fairy-tale believer...quite the opposite.

  Sorry. We'll speak the next 10 years or so (perhaps more, perhaps less), and we'll see how is "the Romanov's case" in the future. I know you'll answer me with the DNA issue. I'm very sure about what I think and why. Sorry again.

RealAnastasia. :-[
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: delle on June 11, 2005, 04:19:01 PM
RealAnastasia-

I agree, the 'final word' is not in. Too many questions
remain unanswered (including those about the DNA
testing).

There is no need to apologize for having a different
opinion, and continuing to ponder one of the greatest
mysteries.


Delle
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ivan Komarov on February 27, 2006, 10:09:26 PM
You know, I just joined this site, and while I don't believe that anyone survived for sure (I'd like to believe so), somehow I don't think there would have been a "happily ever after"...I know that if I were in their place, the "survivor" that is, I wouldn't be happy ever again knowing that my whole family got shot, stabbed, and beaten to death.

A survivor, maybe.

A happily-ever-after story?  Never.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Lemur on March 18, 2006, 07:43:00 PM
2 bodies are still missing and we might never know what really happened to them. I don't think they could have gotten away but stranger things have happened. Just the same this Anna Anderson lady was not Anastasia so we can rule her out.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on March 18, 2006, 10:51:16 PM
Quote
2 bodies are still missing  .... Just the same this Anna Anderson lady was not Anastasia so we can rule her out.


Indeed, the remnants of the skeletal remains will be found. The search continues ...
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 18, 2006, 10:56:12 PM
Quote

Indeed, the remnants of the skeletal remains will be found. The search continues ...


Never mind that two people swear that they saw Anastasia alive after the execution...................

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on March 18, 2006, 11:29:39 PM
Quote

Never mind that two people swear that they saw Anastasia alive after the execution...................

Kind regards
Chat Noir


How much vodka did they consume before they made these revelations?

The bolshevik executioners were cruel cold blooded murders who completed their malicious criminal act to its finality.

The ridiculous tales of alleged survivors sold a series of books; while movies were created to perpetuate the myth. The creators of these legends made their money or achieved their own fame, but now it is time for everyone to let go and bring this nonense to rest.
8)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 19, 2006, 05:04:39 AM
Quote

Never mind that two people swear that they saw Anastasia alive after the execution...................

Kind regards
Chat Noir


And why did they say this? Because they wanted to cover up the fact that there was an execution.

We've been through this a zillion times.  All the survivor rumours ORIGINATED with the Bolsheviks.

They executed everyone.  They wanted to cover it up because the IF were a useful bargaining tool.  So, we get the stories of the 'searches' for a missing GD on a train and so on.  All to bolster the pretence that there had been no execution.

Don't read into this what isn't there to be read.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2006, 08:45:09 AM
Quote

Never mind that two people swear that they saw Anastasia alive after the execution...................

Kind regards
Chat Noir


Never mind that people today SWEAR they saw Elvis at WalMart just last week.

Tedders, yes, capital idea! This DOES call for Mimosa's this morning...Good champers and fresh squeezed OJ all around! That poor long dead horse....

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 19, 2006, 10:08:12 AM
Quote

Never mind that people today SWEAR they saw Elvis at WalMart just last week.



So true, but at least Elvis' body was produced. The IF is missing two. And the testimonies of Franz Svoboda (1938) and Heinrich Kleibenzetl (1965) both support each other.
And why do I get a Smiley when I type eight?
Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2006, 10:18:31 AM
PROVE to me that the body in the tomb at Graceland IS Elvis, then your comparison might be valid.
Further, the National Inquirer is also full of "sightings" of Elvis that corroborate each other. So What??

8 and ) next to each other makes a smiley.

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Sarushka on March 19, 2006, 11:37:38 AM
Quote
Tedders, yes, capital idea! This DOES call for Mimosa's this morning...Good champers and fresh squeezed OJ all around! That poor long dead horse....


Ooh, mimosas! Can I get on the guest list? We can all drink to the ghost of Annie's horse...
;)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 19, 2006, 11:38:47 AM
Quote
PROVE to me that the body in the tomb at Graceland IS Elvis, then your comparison might be valid.
Further, the National Inquirer is also full of "sightings" of Elvis that corroborate each other. So What??

8 and ) next to each other makes a smiley.



I think it's called the National Enquirer. I don't read it, so I wouldn't know how many Elvis sightings we have had lately.
But I am sure all involved were sworn in and questioned in the court of law.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Merrique on March 19, 2006, 12:12:46 PM
Quote
Ooh, mimosas! Can I get on the guest list? We can all drink to the ghost of Annie's horse...
 ;)


Count me in on the mimosas and drinking to the ghost of Annie's dead horse. ;D

So what's the dress for this event?Formal or are folded paper hats and wooden swords allowed?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 19, 2006, 12:18:02 PM
Quote

I think it's called the National Enquirer. I don't read it, so I wouldn't know how many Elvis sightings we have had lately.
But I am sure all involved were sworn in and questioned in the court of law.

Kind regards
Chat Noir


Was not Gilliard sworn in a court of law? Was not Olga Alexandrovna legally deposed in the 1950s? So there are two witnesses who dispute under oath that Anastasia survived, or at least survived as Anastasia Manahan.

People managed to swear things under oath in this case for a very long time without a satisfactory legal resolution.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Sarushka on March 19, 2006, 12:34:09 PM
Quote
So what's the dress for this event?Formal or are folded paper hats and wooden swords allowed?

Why not both? Polish up your sword, and fold a fresh tri-corner hat out of today's newspaper.  ;D
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on March 19, 2006, 12:37:13 PM
My poor dead horse  :'( I want to let him rest in peace, but he still continues to be beaten. Let's drink those mimosas to him and maybe his spirit can find peace. I know I never will on this forum :-/
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2006, 01:53:50 PM
Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/8/prweb271659.htm

If this isn't enough, just copy and paste this into your browser...

http://www.ask.com/web?o=0&qsrc=6&q=Proof+That+Elvis+Is+Alive


Yes Tedders, another round of Mimosa's for all, thank you! Mind the wooden swords don't scratch the furniture.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 19, 2006, 01:58:28 PM
Quote

Was not Gilliard sworn in a court of law? Was not Olga Alexandrovna legally deposed in the 1950s? So there are two witnesses who dispute under oath that Anastasia survived, or at least survived as Anastasia Manahan.

People managed to swear things under oath in this case for a very long time without a satisfactory legal resolution.


Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2006, 02:00:26 PM
Quote

Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir


Maybe because, while they actually BELIEVED what they were saying, they were just, WRONG! Happens all the time...go see the Elvis thread above if you don't think it happens...
Lets face it..HOW familiar with the real AN could a "viennese taylor" (sic) or former prisoner of war real ever have BEEN? Not very credible witnesses in my book, I'd LOVE to be able to do the cross -exam of them at a trial...
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 19, 2006, 02:15:16 PM
Quote

Maybe because, while they actually BELIEVED what they were saying, they were just, WRONG! Happens all the time...go see the Elvis thread above if you don't think it happens...
Lets face it..HOW familiar with the real AN could a "viennese taylor" (sic) or former prisoner of war real ever have BEEN? Not very credible witnesses in my book, I'd LOVE to be able to do the cross -exam of them at a trial...


Well, poor Herr Kleibenzetl was grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, and no-one managed to poke a hole in his testimony. He lived across the street from the Ipatiev house and saw the IF frequently when he fetched and delivered clothing. Franz Svoboda was among the red guards whose job it was to clean up after the murders.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on March 19, 2006, 02:27:56 PM
Quote
Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/8/prweb271659.htm

If this isn't enough, just copy and paste this into your browser...

http://www.ask.com/web?o=0&qsrc=6&q=Proof+That+Elvis+Is+Alive


Yes Tedders, another round of Mimosa's for all, thank you! Mind the wooden swords don't scratch the furniture.


Oh my  :-/   It just seems some refuse to let things go.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 19, 2006, 02:51:51 PM
Quote

Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir



Your assertion that they (Olga and Gilliard) had "agendas" is just that, your assertion. The same type of unsupported statement could be applied to anyone who testified in the case, and usually has been, by both sides. As for why a Viennese tailor or former Austrian prisoner-of-war would fib under oath, I can think of several, but since I do not possess first-hand knowledge of their motivations, I think it wise to avoid speculation.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2006, 03:28:15 PM
Quote

Well, poor Herr Kleibenzetl was grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, and no-one managed to poke a hole in his testimony. He lived across the street from the Ipatiev house and saw the IF frequently when he fetched and delivered clothing. Franz Svoboda was among the red guards whose job it was to clean up after the murders.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Only one small problem about someone "living across the street from the Ipatiev House". See, if you had bothered to read the first hand accounts, you would have known that pretty much NO ONE got to "see the IF frequently".  Buxhoeveden used to walk along the street hoping for a glimpse, but the high pallisade wall that was built prevented that. She only got one small glimpse of an arm from an upstairs window. Don't forget that Nicholas complained in his diary about the windows being painted over with whitewash, and please see the first hand testimony of the nun bringing food, how such people were allowed only into the courtyard, were met OUTSIDE the door by Soloviev or a guard on duty who brought out the laundry or took in the clean laundry or food. NO ONE went inside.
So much for any credibility for "having seen the IF frequently" Ipatiev House.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 19, 2006, 07:33:41 PM
Quote
Only one small problem about someone "living across the street from the Ipatiev House". See, if you had bothered to read the first hand accounts, you would have known that pretty much NO ONE got to "see the IF frequently".  Buxhoeveden used to walk along the street hoping for a glimpse, but the high pallisade wall that was built prevented that. She only got one small glimpse of an arm from an upstairs window. Don't forget that Nicholas complained in his diary about the windows being painted over with whitewash, and please see the first hand testimony of the nun bringing food, how such people were allowed only into the courtyard, were met OUTSIDE the door by Soloviev or a guard on duty who brought out the laundry or took in the clean laundry or food. NO ONE went inside.
So much for any credibility for "having seen the IF frequently" Ipatiev House.


Apparently Herr Kleibenzetl was on good terms with the guards and often went into the house to deliver or pick up uniforms that he and his employer, Mr. Baoudin were in charge of repairing. In all fairness, he did not name Anastasia as the wounded girl brought in by three red guards, he just recognized her as "one of the women". His landlady, Anna Baoudin, was the one who identified her.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: etonexile on March 20, 2006, 07:13:55 AM
How them cats do love to play... ::)

Mimosas at 12 o'clock high...under the hedge in Granny's garden...swords,folded paper hats,full court dress...most shall be allowed..."Old Pete" the gardener/major domo shall be in charge as bouncer...his word is law...erm...when one can understand what he's on about...erm...ta
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: mitia on March 25, 2006, 02:07:10 PM
I believe there was one survivor, and that was Joy, Alexis's spaniel who was found in the Ipatiev House by P. Gilliard when he could enter the house some days after the massacre, and later on brought to England near Windsor. And the pets were part of the IF. They helped in sharing sufferings and sorrows during these last deadfull weeks.
Wasn't there also a dog's skeleton among the bones dragged off the mine shaft, later identified as Jimmy, Anastasia's King Charles spaniel, and isn't this dog by now burried with the IF in Moscow Kremlin ? How did they manage to identify the dog ? Or is it only a king of deduction, knowing that 3 dogs followed the IF to Tobolsk and then Ekaterinburg : Joy who survived, Ortino who is last reported with Tatiana at Ekaterinburg's railway station and then completely disappeared ( though some historians say that Ortino was shot dead a few days after the massacre ) and Jimmy. The " organizer of the murder " wrote that he " seemed to remember that one of the GD was holding a little dog in her arms when getting down to the cellar ". Hence it must have been Anastasia holding Jimmy ?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Mander on March 26, 2006, 06:52:29 PM
I can't resist adding the reports that the body in the casket was not Elvis. Passer's by report seeing his sideburns "melting off" as if his body were made of wax.  (Sorry, my grandmother was an Elvis nut) :)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on March 26, 2006, 08:20:09 PM
Quote


Wasn't there also a dog's skeleton among the bones dragged off the mine shaft, later identified as Jimmy, Anastasia's King Charles spaniel, and isn't this dog by now burried with the IF in Moscow Kremlin ? How did they manage to identify the dog ?

Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.

Quote
Joy who survived, Ortino who is last reported with Tatiana at Ekaterinburg's railway station and then completely disappeared ( though some historians say that Ortino was shot dead a few days after the massacre ) and Jimmy. The " organizer of the murder " wrote that he " seemed to remember that one of the GD was holding a little dog in her arms when getting down to the cellar ". Hence it must have been Anastasia holding Jimmy ?

I have also heard Ortino was killed while barking trying to defend his owners. I do think AN was holding Jemmy that night.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on March 31, 2006, 11:54:33 AM
Quote

...[in part]...

Sokolov's Report should be discussed since so many posters heavily depend upon what he wrote and collected about the execution of Nicholas II, Alexandra, the four Grand Duchesses, Alexis, and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918.



So,  I thought,  there is a thread about the investigators but Sokolov probably should have his own thread.



....
How about something that's no longer in dispute.  The finding of the dog Jemmy found on the bottom of the mine known as the Fourt Brothers on 25 June 1919.

Sokolov published a photograph of the dog's remains.  

Sokolov believed Jemmy died the night of the execution 16/17 July 1918.

Summers and Mangold in their boook THE FILE ON THE TSAR pps. 141 [photo] and 161-2 talk about the facts of a dog being in this particular mine shaft for 11 months.   Due to the changes of temperature between two summers and a winter,  their experts believed the remains of Jemmy would not have looked like the one in the photo but would have decomposed a great deal.

It is, now, believed that the dog Jemmy was killed had been placed in the mine just a few days and less than a week before 25 June of 1919.

General Domontovich, White governor of Ekateriinburg, was in charge of the mine operation.

It would be easy to assume the Whites planted the dog in the mine since I assume the Whites were still guarding this area.  But I don't have evidence they did or that Sokolov knew about this planting of false evidence if the White had planted the dog's body.

Would there be a reason for the Reds to plant the dog's body at that time?  

Do any of you have added information since Summers and Mangold book was published some time ago, 1976

When I get a chance, I'll copy the photo of Jemmy for you.

  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: mitia on March 31, 2006, 01:00:56 PM
Thanks AGRBear, you are a fountain of knowledge about this dog and I was not at all aware of such a complicated story. I completely agree and one has to be very wary about " the organizer of the murder "  ( sorry but I hate quoting his proper name ) reports. I am very interested in seeing the photo of the dog that was found in the mine shaft, whenever you will find a moment to post it.
As you seem to know so much, may I ask you if I am right in what I said in my former message on same thread about :
1) Ortino never really identified or found back after the murder
2) Joy beeing found blind and sheltered under a bed by P. Gilliard ( who was accompanied by another person if I remember well what P. Gilliard tells in his book of memoirs )  when he got a chance to enter the Ipatiev House a few days after the murder ?
Thanks for your great postings and for sharing your knowledge since..... " Les meilleures choses sont les choses partagées " or " The best things are the things one shares ".
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on March 31, 2006, 01:26:38 PM
Thank you for the nice words.  Here is the photo.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/JemmyRemains.jpg )

Photo of Jemmy's Corpse taken July 1919 near the Fourt Brother's Mine.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 31, 2006, 02:17:26 PM
Aww...
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on March 31, 2006, 02:30:44 PM
Quote
2) Joy beeing found blind and sheltered under a bed by P. Gilliard ( who was accompanied by another person if I remember well what P. Gilliard tells in his book of memoirs )  when he got a chance to enter the Ipatiev House a few days after the murder ?

Sure it was Joy??? I thought Joy was the one who escaped into the streets and was eventually taken home to England by a member of the British Counselate in Ekaterinburg? Couldn't have wondered around blind! Also, I don't think anyone was allowed back in the I house?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 31, 2006, 03:57:07 PM
Quote
 
Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.
Quote
 

Jemmy was Tatiana's dog, given to her by Anna Virubova before the outbreak of World War I.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on March 31, 2006, 04:23:33 PM
Quote
Quote
 
Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.
Quote
 

Jemmy was Tatiana's dog, given to her by Anna Virubova before the outbreak of World War I.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

In Anna V's book she claimed to have had the dog with her until 1917 when she was hauled away by Kerensky. Anastasia seemed to be its main owner, as Anna V. published letters from AN in Tobolsk saying 'your little dog is with me all the time and is very nice."
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Azarias on March 31, 2006, 06:28:49 PM
Any idea what ulitimately became of Jemmy's body?   :(
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on March 31, 2006, 06:59:14 PM
Quote

In Anna V's book she claimed to have had the dog with her until 1917 when she was hauled away by Kerensky. Anastasia seemed to be its main owner, as Anna V. published letters from AN in Tobolsk saying 'your little dog is with me all the time and is very nice."

I have my info from The Riddle of Anna Anderson, page 401n70. Could you please let me know where Anna Viroubova tells about giving Jemmy to Anastasia?

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: mitia on April 01, 2006, 02:57:46 PM
Annie, you are right as it seems " Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 01, 2006, 05:12:32 PM
Quote
Annie, you are right as it seems " Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.

Added to this is:

Gilliard was the one who identified the body of the dog found in the mine as being Jemmy.

THE HOUSE OF SPECIAL PURPOSE, complied from the papers of Charles Sydney Gibbes by J. C. Trewin p. 113:

>>In the courtyard, half starved, was the sole survivor of the Imperial Family, the Tsarevich's spaniel which was one of the guards had stolen.  His name was Joy.<<

I went looking for the thread which I started that all the photographs of the Imp. Family Animals but could find it.  When I found a quote with the URL in it, it didn't connect me.   Since FA is working around the clock to fix some of these problem,  I assume the thread is somewhere and will reappear.

In THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS the death of the bull dog was told by one of the guards.  Evidently,  this dog was not killed in the basement but later when one of the guard was going back up the stairs.  The bull dog growled and evidently was being agressive.  The poor thing was killed by the guard.

I do not know what happen to the bull dog's body.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 01, 2006, 06:23:13 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/Jemmy.jpg)

Jemmy

Corpse shown above which was found in July 1919 by the Whites at the bottom of the mine shaft known as Four Brothers.

It is, now, thought the dog's body was planted.

Forensic has proven the poor dog was  killed just before being found.  

Source  in post above.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 01, 2006, 06:29:42 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/OrthinoBullDog.jpg)
Ortino

His fate is discussed on p.  364 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson who tell:

>>...Kudrin recalled, one dog was killed on the night of the murders, as it came down the staircase of the Ipatiev House.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 01, 2006, 06:38:34 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/Joy.jpg)

Joy

THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson p. 364 tell us that  Joy was found with Michael Letemin when he was arrested.  

Quote

...[in part]...

.... Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on April 01, 2006, 07:21:03 PM
Dear Bear,

You are truly amazing. I see you go to infinite realms, so to speak to not only research, but to barify your facts. This is what reputable writers do. After reading much of your input, placed alongside those whom just quote others on these threads, (myself included) I would without question take your statements and quotes with the utmost realibility. My hats off to you, and my respect is yours !

What I like much about you, is the manner in which you offer your posts. Whatever others may say, you continue to forge ahead, making sure many times there is no misunderstanding in what you state, or that others might take offense. Of course you might make a mistake here or there, but you catch it, or someone will, and you respond directly. Your human, and it is expected. What I notice is that you always respond, and never shirk responsibility in responding. What more, if you don't have a response to a question, you go and find it. You check and re check your resources. I think in more ways than one, you would make a very fine published writer. Your very good at what you present, and how you present your material.

Thank you for your posts, and the spirit in which you offer them, daily !

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2006, 03:07:00 PM
Tatina,

Thank you for those kind words.

I have been blessed with the life where I can afford whatever book I'd like to have, therefore, all I need to do is get up from my chair and desk and look to my library stacks and pull a book out, find the needed information and give you the source.  And,  it is my pleasure to do so.

Yes, being human,  I do make mistakes and as soon as they are brought to my attention I try to correct my mistakes.

My interpretation of information is sometimes different than what others may interpret so it's important to you and everyone else that you have the opportunity to go to that source when you can visit the library where all these books can be found and borrow so you can read the source and make up your own mind.

As I have offered Annie and others who cannot have the  library as I,  I'd be more than happy to find the quote if given hints where they can be found.

I feel this is a community interested in the same subjects and we're here to help each other to find the historical truths.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2006, 03:08:43 PM
Quote
Quote from: Penny_Wilson  link=1102890711/0#6 date=1077662849
Greg and I tried to sort out these doggy logistics in The Fate of the Romanovs, and here's what we concluded:

Jemmy, Joy and Ortino departed Tsarskoye Selo with the family, and lived with them through the days in Tobolsk.  After N, A and M left for Ekaterinburg, the three dogs remained with the rest of the children, and traveled to E'burg on board the Rus and by train with them.  The family, including the three dogs, were reunited in the Ipatiev House.  During captivity there, the dogs were fed on the upper balcony, just outside the dining room and what became Demidova's bedroom.  After the murders and during the White investigations, the bones found on this balcony were itemized as remains of the dogs' last dinner in the house.

Various guards also recount stories of the girls, especially Anastasia, teaching the dogs tricks and making them perform in the garden.

After the murders, we know that Joy was taken from the Ipatiev House to Michael Letemin's house, where he was discovered in the garden by the Whites.  Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold.

Ortino's fate, we believe, is most likely found in Michael Kudrin's testimony of December 1963, when he recalled that as the bodies were being moved from the basement of the house into the truck, a little dog appeared from upstairs, and rushed into the courtyard, obviously much distressed and upset and probably looking for his people.  Kudrin is silent on whether or not the dog was behaving like a guard dog, but it would not have been out of the ordinary for a Frenchie -- a famously protective breed -- to become territorial and vicious in defense of his family, the moreso because their scents were at that time overlayed with the smell of gunsmoke and blood.  In any case, a soldier took up his bayonet and stabbed the dog to death, throwing his body into the truck with the Romanovs.  "A dog's death to dogs," Kudrin remembered Goloshchokin commenting as they stood watching.

We think that perhaps some of the "mammal bones" found at the Four Brothers were those of Ortino.

What a brave little guy he was... =)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: mitia on April 04, 2006, 07:18:58 AM
Dear AGRBEAR, it is very kind from you to take the time of searching this wonderful site for the right and relevent information about such or such thread, which new members like myself are not clever enough, or familiar enough with the many branches of this site, to achieve. And sometimes things are even more complicated when one is a foreigner or not fluent in English, which is my case as I am now ageeing ( 50 years old ) and my english is getting poorer every single day God makes !
Hence, please, may I ask you one more favour to help me to understand this sentence :

" Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold "

The little dog was still AVAILABLE to THEM when THEY were looking for physical EVIDENCE with which TO " SALT " the mine ? Does this mean that Jemmy, either alive or dead, was taken by the bolsheviks, together with the IF corpses, to the premisses or location of the 4 Brothers mineshaft, and kind of left aside while the same bolsheviks were looking for a substance with which the corpses of the IF would be desintegrated or destroyed ?

MERCI MILLE FOIS POUR VOTRE AIDE CHER AGRBear.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 04, 2006, 04:26:20 PM
The dog Jemmy was thought to be alive until late June or early July 1919.  It was not until this time Jemmy was killed and then placed in the bottom of the mine shaft at Four Brother's Mine.

This occured just before the White Army had to pull out of Ekaterinburg because the Red Army was just about to take the city once, again.

The terms "salted" and "planted" are terms used to describe placing the dog's body to help fabricate evidence of proof.  In this case,  it was to add to the the theory at that time that the bodies of the Imperial Family and servents had been totally destroyed by fire and that all that was left of them was found in this shaft.  These items were jewels, belt,  a severed finger and Botkin's false teeth. etc. etc..

Let me quote  Robert Wilton, who wrote in 1922 his book THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS and who was there in Ekaterinburg right next to Sokolov, Gilliard and the others during the investigation p.  95:


>>One pathetic incident escaped the notice of all these witnesses.  The Grand Duhcess Anstasia took with her a King Chalres spaniel, carrying it in her arms into the death-room.  The corpse of little Jemmy was found above a heap of cinders-- all that remained of the family that had loved her and shared with her their meagre fare.  The murders had knocked the faithful friend on the head and thrown the body down the iron-pit without troulbing to burn it.  Even in her death the little dog watched over them, and her mangled remains, still recognizable, brought final unmistakable proof of the end of the family."

If you can stomach Wilton's dislike for the Jews whom he blames as a group and not as individuals,  you can find some interesting stuff in this book.  It has been republished in 1993.

If there are any more questions,  I'm more than happy to try and answer them.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 09:05:59 AM
I think Jemmy was a King Charles Spaaniel.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/KingCharles-SpanBW.jpg)

The color in the photos seem to show an all black dog.

Today the colors shown in the US are Black and Tan, solid rich read with white markings...

Japanese Chin is white and black.

The Pekinese can be all colours.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 13, 2006, 02:48:16 PM
Quote
A very kind reader of the Alexander Palace site, Francesca Belanger,  contacted us about the caption of the photo of the "second" Jemmy in the photo showing the dog in Anastasia's lap, the dog she took with her to Siberia. Our identification of that dog as a "Japanese Spaniel" may be incorrect.

We took that description from Sidney Gibbs' own testimony to Sokolov about that dog:"Anastasia had a small dog, I only know that it was a Japanese breed.  It was very small with long fur, reddish-brown...His characteristic traits were very large round eyes, his teeth uncovered, a long tongue which hung out of his mouth, I don't know which side.  He was called Jemmy.  The dogs of this breed were miniscule and were often carried in the arms.  He belonged to Anastasia, but everyone loved him, the Empress in particular..... Gibbs identified the corpse found as Jemmy without question. We used this as the basis for our attribution as a "Japanese Spaniel" belonging to Anastasia.

SO, Francesca is a dog fancier, who said that while the first Jemmy, seen in Vyroubova's photos on board the Standardt was definately a Japanese Spaniel, properly called a "Japanese Chin", the second Jemmy, in Siberia, did not resemble the breed, but rather looked like an English Toy Spaniel. We sent her close ups of the dog from that photo, and Francesca responded to us recently:
"I heard back from my friend Michele Blake, who breeds Japanese Chin, and she thinks Jemmy was an English Toy Spaniel, too, based on the picture. I did some research in Hutchinson's Dog Encyclopedia, published in the 30's, and saw photos of ETS's that look a lot like the little dog Anastasia is holding. In addition to Jemmy's solid-color head, there is also the issue of the ear-set. The Chin's ears sit higher on the head, while the ETS's head is very domed and the ears appear to join onto the head at a lower point than they do on a Chin. The English Toy Spaniels of today look different from some of the more delicate type I saw in Hutchinson's"

Nick and Geoffrey are both correct! The English Toy Spaniel is today properly called the "King Charles Spaniel"!
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on April 13, 2006, 02:52:01 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/Jemmy.jpg)

Jemmy in this photo looks all black or maybe dark brown.  

Were the King Charles Spaniel one color in those days???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: mitia on April 14, 2006, 11:09:52 AM
I sent the little photo of JEMMY to Mrs M. Bootle, who has been breeding french bulldogs ( the Tommyville French Bulldogs ) for more than 40 years and is also an international judge for several breeds in Dogs Shows ( Mrs Bootle judges all over Europe, USA, Australia etc...). This is her answer :

" This little dog in the photo looks almost more like a Peke than a King Charles Spaniel. The problem is both breeds have changed a lot, and it must always be remembered that the late Victorians were very keen on crossbreeding too. Solid red is permitted in KCS - called ruby, which may have been almost brown, but the little dog looks too dark for that. "
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ivan Komarov on May 07, 2006, 11:57:36 PM
I don't dispute whether Anastasia or Marie was missing (personally I think Marie, but that's just favourites), but rather that if one of them did survive, that the rest of the skeletons in the grave are still the family.  True, there was some disturbance in the 1980s (I did forget about that) but again, not only DNA was tampered with, as I said above, and the rest is kind of hard to fake.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 12, 2006, 07:31:38 PM
No one is certain as to the number of times the mass grave in Pig's Meadow was disturbed.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Lemur on May 13, 2006, 07:21:48 AM
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: hg123 on May 13, 2006, 10:01:39 AM
Even if they were (what I do not really doubt), the remains must still be somewhere. Such a fire cannot destroy all of the bones. The bodies weren't cremated, after all.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 14, 2006, 12:19:47 AM
Did Gilliard for sure say that?  Wasn't the Grand Duchesses' mother raised with German as a first language, and they used it as home and had Russian as a second language?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 14, 2006, 06:51:03 AM
I'm pretty sure they spoke English with Alexandra. If the evidence that AA was AN were conclusive, wouldn't her claim have been proven by now?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 15, 2006, 05:16:54 PM
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

Yurovsky claimed that two bodies,  Alexei and mistakenly Demidova, were burned.  Evidently, Yurovsky had wanted Alexei and Alexandra's bodies burned.

Yurovsky was wrong for it appears that the female body was not Demidova or Alexandra but Anastasia or Maria.  [Russians claim the body missing is Maria's.  Maples, the American, claimed the missing body is GD Anastasia's.]

Forenic has proven that burning the bodies with the kind of fuel Yurovsky and his men used would not have turned the bodies into ashes.  The remains would have been most of the body which would have been charred.  These remains would have needed  a grave.  This grave has never been found.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 16, 2006, 08:08:44 PM
Quote
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

Yurovsky claimed that two bodies,  Alexei and mistakenly Demidova, were burned.  Evidently, Yurovsky had wanted Alexei and Alexandra's bodies burned.

Yurovsky was wrong for it appears that the female body was not Demidova or Alexandra but Anastasia or Maria.  [Russians claim the body missing is Maria's.  Maples, the American, claimed the missing body is GD Anastasia's.]

Forenic has proven that burning the bodies with the kind of fuel Yurovsky and his men used would not have turned the bodies into ashes.  The remains would have been most of the body which would have been charred.  These remains would have needed  a grave.  This grave has never been found.

AGRBear

It is entirely possible that the bodies were stolen out of either of the "graves". It seems most probable that Yurovsky was aware there were two missing bodies by the time of the second "burial" and thus his Note accounts for there only being 9 bodies. Not a bad move during such brutal times for him to have made.

As I have said before, until or unless other remains are found, we will never be certain what happened to the two who are missing - or who the female is missing really was.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 16, 2006, 10:07:07 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

It is entirely possible that the bodies were stolen out of either of the "graves". It seems most probable that Yurovsky was aware there were two missing bodies by the time of the second "burial" and thus his Note accounts for there only being 9 bodies.

 [size=10]Pokrovsky the author of the "Notes" maybe the one who faultered in his re-write of what Yurovsky related to him about the event.[/size] [/color]
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ivan Komarov on May 16, 2006, 10:46:08 PM
That's a valid point Belochka makes...it's usually uncertain how 'firsthand' a record (in this case, the Note(s)) really is.  It's not necessarily a high likelihood that an error was made, but it's entirely possible.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 17, 2006, 02:35:19 AM
Quote
That's a valid point Belochka makes...it's usually uncertain how 'firsthand' a record (in this case, the Note(s)) really is.  It's not necessarily a high likelihood that an error was made, but it's entirely possible.

We do not know how many "Pokrovsky drafts" were made before the alleged Yurovsky Notes were finally archived bearing Yurovsky's signature.

Simple errors such as transcribing a wrong number is not inconceivable. Yurovsky being somewhat illiterate may similarily not have even noticed or cared about any discrepancy on the final document when he signed "his" Notes.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2006, 10:15:19 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

It is entirely possible that the bodies were stolen out of either of the "graves". It seems most probable that Yurovsky was aware there were two missing bodies by the time of the second "burial" and thus his Note accounts for there only being 9 bodies.

 [size=12]Pokrovsky the author of the "Notes" maybe the one who faultered in his re-write of what Yurovsky related to him about the event.[/size] [/color]

Quote
Quote
That's a valid point Belochka makes...it's usually uncertain how 'firsthand' a record (in this case, the Note(s)) really is.  It's not necessarily a high likelihood that an error was made, but it's entirely possible.

We do not know how many "Pokrovsky drafts" were made before the alleged Yurovsky Notes were finally archived bearing Yurovsky's signature.

Simple errors such as transcribing a wrong number is not inconceivable. Yurovsky being somewhat illiterate may similarily not have even noticed or cared about any discrepancy on the final document when he signed "his" Notes.

I am not sure what you mean Belochka.  

Why are you talking about errors, drafts and numbers?

Is there a post missing which most of us didn't see?

Puzzled Bear.


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 17, 2006, 08:20:01 PM
Quote
I am not sure what you mean Belochka.  

Puzzled Bear.

Yurovsky was not the actual author of the so called "Yurovsky" notes.  ::)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 21, 2006, 10:48:17 PM
The question of survivors has plaqued everyone. I find it interesting that posters like to discuss the idea of survivors actually existing, except for Bob ofcourse, but when someone comes forth with any kind of ' possible evidence ' the so-called evidence is dismissed outright. So why would anyone who possibly is a survivor even try to communicate with this forum for fear of ridicule? It also seems to me that posters are scared to say anything controversial which might get them kicked off the site. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 21, 2006, 10:59:24 PM
Quote
The question of survivors has plaqued everyone. I find it interesting that posters like to discuss the idea of survivors actually existing, except for Bob ofcourse, but when someone comes forth with any kind of ' possible evidence ' the so-called evidence is dismissed outright. So why would anyone who possibly is a survivor even try to communicate with this forum for fear of ridicule?

There were NO SURVIVORS and certainly none that would be able to communicate on this forum.    

 >:(
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 21, 2006, 11:12:04 PM
Belochka, to use your color, that is your oppinion!!! And...your oppinion is not fact...so back off!!!  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 21, 2006, 11:33:22 PM
Quote
Belochka, to use your color, that is your oppinion!!! And...your oppinion is not fact...so back off!!!  :'( :'(


JonC your rudeness is most unacceptable.

I believe that you owe me an apology.
 >:(
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 22, 2006, 12:37:28 AM
Or at least an explanation as to which survivor could be extant and cyber-literate! I am entranced by the idea of 105 year-old Anastasia Nicholaevna valiantly typing away, posting on the AP Forum.

Simon
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 22, 2006, 04:10:37 PM
For posters who are not aware of Pokrovsky's relationship with Yurovsky and his "notes", here is more information.

Quote
Quote
I am not sure what you mean Belochka.  

Puzzled Bear.

Yurovsky was not the actual author of the so called "Yurovsky" notes.  ::)


p. 417 THE LAST TSAR by Edvard Radzinsky:

>>By the way, Yurovsky was alarmed too;  evidently the rumors about Anastasia moved him to take actions as well.  In 1920,  when this mysterious, "miraclously saved' woman appeared in Berlin, he gave the historian Pokrovsky his Note, the idea behind which was  "They all died.'<<

Interesting timing on Yurovsky part, don't you think?

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 22, 2006, 04:33:52 PM
Quote
The following is what King tells us about Yurovsky's quotes on the missing bodies from the grave in Pig's Meadow:

Quote from: Greg_King  link=1097954839/25#29 date=1098193212
Elisabeth-
I haven't yet mastered the art of being able to cut and paste random quotes, but in reply to your post of 18 October, concerning Yurovsky's motivation in possibly lying about the two missing bodies/separate grave:

To me, at least, it is a plausible theory.  You mention a lack of motive, but I see plenty of motive.  First, let's start with the assumption (whether right or wrong, for the sake of argument here) that two bodies were indeed missing when they got to the Koptyaki Forest.  We know Yurovsky sent almost everyone gathered there away from the scene on the pretext of the jewels hidden in clothing.  It is I think equally possible he sent them away because he wanted to narrow the field of witnesses to only those men on whom he could rely.  So, under this hypothesis, whom does Yurovsky lie to?  Not to the few trusted men still there, and we know both he and Ermakov spent the morning of 17 July before a special emergency meeting of the Ural Regional Soviet's Presidium, essentially getting raked over the coals for something-Isai Rodzinsky hints that this was because of "what had happened."  But what had happened?  The murders?  Everyone knew those were coming.  So it had to be something else, something that happened during the murders or immediately after.  I suspect that these uncomfortable interviews concerned the two missing bodies.  Yurovsky doesn't lie to these men-Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, etc.-after all, they're all in this together, with their collective necks hanging out in the wind from having killed everyone aganst Moscow's orders.  He HAS to trust these guys.  But when it comes to Moscow, that's another issue.  He has every reason to lie to Moscow if through his bungling or lack of order two bodies went missing.  What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Ermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

Yurovsky certainly wouldn't admit this in his 1920 Note, which he only wrote at the direction of Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, and which he knew would be seen by those in power.  So he sticks to the cover story.  Same with his 1934 talk.  But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.  I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed.  Moscow knew how many people had actually been shot-he couldn't add or subtract victims-his mistake was just that, whereas in his 1922 memoir he was quite clear about attempting to burn only one body.

It's possible, though completely unproved, that the grave was opened in 1927-28, but if so, why would Stalin simply remove the two sets of remains buried separately and not obliterate the others?  That doesn't make sense-especially as he already had Yurovsky's 1920 Note which conveniently explained away the two missing bodies should anyone ever look.  All the Soviet government had to do was to produce it and say, "Here's why they're missing!"  Simply removing two, while leaving the other nine, seems illogical.

I suspect, though it's simply a hypothesis, that someone who knew what happened talked-and this started the ball rolling as it were in 1927-28.  After this, the people who would have known either start dropping like flies, being arrested, or suddenly get special government pensions or write absurd memoirs claiming all manner of inaccuracies.

Admittedly, there's no absolute proof that a second grave didn't exist, but nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea that it did outside of the few memoirs, which contradict each other and make claims unsupported by science.  Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yusovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Greg King

AGRBear

Let me repeat the part which talks about numbers:

Greg King:

Quote
>> But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.<<

"a single body"!

Not two bodies.

Not eleven bodies?

"a single body".



AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 22, 2006, 05:14:42 PM
Quote
Quote
The question of survivors has plaqued everyone. I find it interesting that posters like to discuss the idea of survivors actually existing, except for Bob ofcourse, but when someone comes forth with any kind of ' possible evidence ' the so-called evidence is dismissed outright. So why would anyone who possibly is a survivor even try to communicate with this forum for fear of ridicule?

There were NO SURVIVORS and certainly none that would be able to communicate on this forum.    

 >:(


Belochka, when you write in blue color you project a rational, pleasant demeanor BUT when you write in RED concluding with an angry face smiley, and directing your anger at me simply because we don't agree about anastasia and her family surviving, well then, I'm gonna yell back!! You appologize first for yelling! JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on May 22, 2006, 06:24:09 PM
Bear,
I cut and pasted these quotes you re entered on this thread below, so I might offer my opinion. It might be very good if when people posted a subject on the AP thread, if we had these particular instances of understandings of past findings, so people are better to centering their statements, don’t you think?
When we have something of direct focus of which to base our arguments, it offers something specific, rather than punching back and forth needlessly.When I think of the long drawn out arguments of posters, it is somewhat distracting. Still, Thanks to you, you have brought back focus to what is relevant, and of significant notice, past to present day.

#1] What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Yermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

With this above statement, here it has been discussed to the nth degree by many posters that this was a reality of what Yurovsky said initially. However, nobody in all their postings ever brought out the main information that it was more of a cover story to protect all ‘the murders’ from Moscow.

#2] But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.

Of course, [Yurovsky] his family would keep this a secret, it makes sense! It meant his neck, and of course, his place in history…but by this time the deed was long over, and he was dying

#3] I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed
I agree, he went into exact and specific detail didn’t he.

#4] Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yurovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Yurovsky was a pathological liar from the word go! Therefore, we remain with a very large question indeed.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on May 22, 2006, 06:26:33 PM
Bear, you really bring out the best points on issues.  ;)

Like :

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

I saw no one bringing out this point either

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 22, 2006, 08:39:59 PM
Perhaps because her claim wasn't advanced until the fall of 1921.

It did not receive publicity until after Peuthart left Dalldorf in January 1922.

Source: Kurth, Peter. ANASTASIA: THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSEN.
Little, Brown:New York, 1983, p.14.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 22, 2006, 08:58:32 PM
Quote
Or at least an explanation as to which survivor could be extant and cyber-literate! I am entranced by the idea of 105 year-old Anastasia Nicholaevna valiantly typing away, posting on the AP Forum.

Simon[/quote

Simon...there has been so much time passed since 1918 that it is obvious that it would be vary unlikely that you will have one of OTMA e-mailing or posting on this website. That reality wouldn't elliminate the equally real possibility that one of their children or grandchildren would post on this site. I happen to believe that they already have done so. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on May 22, 2006, 09:00:07 PM
Lol Simon,

I think we got our communications crossed. Your post below speaks very well about the years to 1921, but my input was to point out after that date to the present. Even on this forum, nobody except Bear brought this out, as she finally shared today with us.

So, yes while there was publicity, in particular, after the fall of 1921, as you point out, the information Bear brings to date in full is of value to all we have been over on this thread, and perhaps to other threads as well.

Thanks for your post in clarifying what you did clarify of given publicity.

Tatiana+


Quote
Perhaps because her claim wasn't advanced until the fall of 1921.

It did not receive publicity until after Peuthart left Dalldorf in January 1922.

Source: Kurth, Peter. ANASTASIA: THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSEN.
Little, Brown:New York, 1983, p.14.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 22, 2006, 09:45:46 PM
Quote
Bear, you really bring out the best points on issues.  ;)

Like :

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

I saw no one bringing out this point either

Tatiana+

 ;D to you too.

Yurovsky wrote his report before Anna Andersen appeared on the scene. And it is interesting that it was studied "after that date (1921) to the present" because . . .  :-? I think nobody but Bear "brought this out, as she finally shared today with us" because it is . . .um . . . self-evident? Kind of like how we don't usually need to mention that 2006 comes after 2005.

I'm just sure I'm missing something; perhaps you can "clarify"?

Thanks,

Simon
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 23, 2006, 11:12:23 AM
Quote
For posters who are not aware of Pokrovsky's relationship with Yurovsky and his "notes", here is more information.

Quote
Quote
I am not sure what you mean Belochka.  

Puzzled Bear.

Yurovsky was not the actual author of the so called "Yurovsky" notes.  ::)


p. 417 THE LAST TSAR by Edvard Radzinsky:

>>By the way, Yurovsky was alarmed too;  evidently the rumors about Anastasia moved him to take actions as well.  In 1920,  when this mysterious, "miraclously saved' woman appeared in Berlin, he gave the historian Pokrovsky his Note, the idea behind which was  "They all died.'<<

Interesting timing on Yurovsky part, don't you think?

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

AGRBear

Quote
Perhaps because her claim wasn't advanced until the fall of 1921.

It did not receive publicity until after Peuthart left Dalldorf in January 1922.

Source: Kurth, Peter. ANASTASIA: THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSEN.
Little, Brown:New York, 1983, p.14.

Do you really truly think the Bolsheviks first learned about AA  after her story became public?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 23, 2006, 12:27:40 PM
Yes, Bear, I really truly do. Check the Kurth citation. Unless you postulate that Andersen/Schanzkowksa really was Anastasia, and that the Bolsheviks were keeping tabs on her from 1918-1920, then the story does not receive dissemination until early 1921. And if she really was Anastasia, and the Bolsheviks were afraid that she was an embryonic Catherine the Great, then there was ample opportunity to kill her. Dalldorf would have been simple to infiltrate.

We both agree that AA was not AN. I accept that she was Franziska Schanzkowska, and you have not made up your mind --- or at least have not posted that you have. But the only way that the Bolsheviks could have been interested in Fraulein Unbekannt in 1920 would have been if they knew she WAS Anastasia, and had been tracking her whereabouts.

Please note that I am not saying that Yurovsky's testimony rules out the possibility of Anastasia's survival for those who wish to believe in such things (it obviously doesn't, or they wouldn't believe!)  But the 1920 testimony had nothing to do with Anna Andersen.

Simon
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 23, 2006, 08:42:06 PM
Quote
. But the only way that the Bolsheviks could have been interested in Fraulein Unbekannt in 1920 would have been if they knew she WAS Anastasia, and had been tracking her whereabouts.

Simon

If the soviets believed she was Grand Duchess Anastasia she would have been targeted and assassinated on the spot, in the same style as a number of Russian  émigrés had faced who had vigorously opposed the regime from within before emigrating. She would have been considered a primary witness to events which the soviets prefered closed.

This is evidence enough that Fraulein Unbekannt was nothing more than an ordinary citizen of no political interest to the soviets.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Divia on May 23, 2006, 09:13:04 PM
Quote
Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

Excellent! Elvis LIVES  8-)

Seriously though, I do not understand why some people are allowing their knickers to get into a knot over this. Reading some of your posts is amazing.   :-?

The truth of the matter is there are two missing bodies and no one knows what happened to them. There is speculation. Of course there will be for we do not know what happened. Until the bodies are found this constant guessing game will contiune.  

People have a right to question what happened to the bodies.  That's history. We are searching for clues to an unsloved mystery.  

As for beating the dead horse you better get use to it.  When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on May 23, 2006, 09:24:50 PM
Quote

As for beating the dead horse you better get use to it.  When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.


When I say stop beating the dead horse, I mean give up the old, worn out AA story already. DNA proved it wasn't her, and don't start in about the tests being rigged or wrong because where did they get the tissue sample that just HAPPENED to match the Schanskowskas? That's the other piece of it, it wasn't just that she didn't match the royals, but she DID match the Schanskowskas. If she didn't match either I might still wonder myself, but she did, with 99% accuracy. Besides, her face looks nothing like AN. No it's not because it was injured. If it were it would be a disfigured version of her OWN face, not a totally different person's face. And she didn't know the languages or use the same accents AN would have. AA was NOT AN.

I am not saying there aren't more mysteries to explore. I would be interested in a search for the missing bodies, or the spot where they burned. There are a lot of things we don't know the answer to, but one of them is not the identity of AA. She was FS. AN might still be out there somewhere but she wasn't AA.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on May 23, 2006, 09:30:03 PM


Quote


 That reality wouldn't elliminate the equally real possibility that one of their children or grandchildren would post on this site. I happen to believe that they already have done so. JonC.

I'll give you this much, your Grandma looks more like Anastasia than AA did!
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 23, 2006, 09:34:10 PM
Quote
 When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.


With respect Divia,

When the Imperial Family is remembered by the Russian people, the horrendous manner of ALL their deaths comes directly to mind.

Mrs Manahan is strictly speaking not part of Russian history. She is certainly not mentioned in any of my recent Russian language biographic appraisals.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Divia on May 23, 2006, 09:49:43 PM
Not once did I say tests were rigged? Did I? No. That is not what I am saying.

If you ask people about this(well those who atleast remember history and dont' confuse it with something else) will remember the death of the family and then say "didn't some chick live." or something to that effect.

Death and survival are one now.  You cannot escape it until there is evidence to prove that the two bodies who are missing died at a certain age and are from the family.

That is all I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less.

To get uppity about it and start to flame people is a little much.  And I am not directing it an either of you. I am just saying from reading past posts and lurking for a while this is what I have seen.

There are many theories on this.  Some should be explored, others not.
There is still a mystery to be solved.  Hopefully with logical thinking, a little luck, and with some evidence they can be answered.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ivan Komarov on May 23, 2006, 10:07:25 PM
Divia, no offence meant from me either, but while I've not exactly been round on AP for the longest time ever, I do know that when discussing topics such as this, sometimes it is a good habit not to lurk for so long.  Get your own opinions out there before not necessarily criticizing, but being short about others' opinions.  Some of us - cough cough - are set in our ways and beliefs; it is best that you get used to it.

Anyhow...

Zdravstvuyte, i gostepryimsvo k obshchine, welcome to the community!  And from here on out try to contribute information more and perhaps use a more easygoing tone in your posts.  Thanks for joining us!

 ;D
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 23, 2006, 10:16:52 PM
Quote
If you ask people about this(well those who atleast remember history and dont' confuse it with something else) will remember the death of the family and then say "didn't some chick live." or something to that effect.

There is still a mystery to be solved.  Hopefully with logical thinking, a little luck, and with some evidence they can be answered.

Divia,

There is no mystery I assure you. Scientific assessments has clearly identified the truth to those who want to read the solid facts.

There will always be others who prefer to believe in myths because they are far easier to accept than the horrendous deaths of ALL the Imperial Family.

The so called "chick" to whom you refer was proven to be nothing more than a fraud who deceived just a few. It made a good story, but it was not a Russian one.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on May 23, 2006, 10:32:45 PM
Divia, no one flamed you, we were only trying to explain the facts. I must ask, though, if you don't think the DNA tests were rigged, why don't you believe them? They proved that Anna Anderson was not related to Alexandra's family, and she was related to the family of the Polish woman she had been suspected to be. This woman disappeared in Berlin the same time AA appeared. It's more fun and cool and happy to believe someone lived, but that doesn't make it true.

If you are truly new, we'd be glad to discuss this and answer all of your questions. Please forgive my suspicion, but we do have a person or two who are avid AA supporters who keep coming back every few days with a different name pretending to be 'new.' One person has done this at least seven times. So please understand that we veterans are very skeptical of 'newbies' who are overly enthusiastic AA supporters. Of course, if they really are new, and not a banned person pretending, they are welcome, regardless of what 'side' they are on. And please remember, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they 'flamed' you.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Divia on May 24, 2006, 05:53:22 AM
No, no. I think you are confusing what I am saying.

Not once did I say AA was real. I do not believe she was. I do not believe the DNA was rigged in any way.  As for the "royal chick" I was refering to the average joe on the street, not myself.  Thats why I said that the story of death and survival are so much a part of this now.  That's what a lot of people remember.


I simply said there are two missing bodies and no one knows where they are. People are wondering what happened to them.  I do not think that there was some grand conspiracy(though Americans do love a conspiracy) to save them, but the fact remains that two bodies cannot be found...where did they go?

That is what I would like to find out.  

BTW, not once did I say you guys flamed me.  I was reading this thread and some other posts seemed to be flames, not that I had been flamed.

I hope this clears it up.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on May 24, 2006, 07:23:05 AM
Okay Divia:) But when you came in here saying what you did in your first post, and talking about my dead horse, you certainly did seem like a veteran around here. Yes it's true, there are an awful lot of 'average Joes' who have only heard 'something' about 'some chick surviving' and they believe it. This is why it's so important that we here on this site, where they might come for info, set the record straight instead of encouraging more wild speculation and trying to hang on to the old worn out AA tale. Yes, two bodies are missing, yes, this is a very interesting story, but no, there is no proof anyone lived, and all of the imposters, including AA, have been proven false.

About the two bodies, there are reports by the Bolsheviks that they were burned, though some disregard this because of conflicting reports by guys who told slightly different versions, casting doubt on them for those who want to keep believing. Sadly, if these bodies were burned, we will likely NEVER find them, since the ashes and charred bones would more than have disentigrated into the bog by now. Another reason I hate to see all of the attention to AA is that once the discussion gets onto that, everything else, including what actually happened to the two bodies, gets ignored, and this is the real mystery we need to explore now. The AA case is solved.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 24, 2006, 12:21:44 PM
You're right the AA case is closed. The DNA is the final word. I would like an investigation into the fates of the two missing bodies that was not clouded by survivor stories. However, the likelihood of finding them is very slim, which is a shame as they'd possibly provide a final, definate answer to the fate of the whole family.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on May 24, 2006, 12:28:22 PM
[size=10]Dear OlgaNRomanovaFan,

You and millions of others would like to know the fate of the two missing bodies, that are not clouded by survivor stories. That's the 64 million dollar question to date, and one that the remaining members of the families would like to know. To put this to final rest is more than a prayer !

Tatiana+[/size]

Quote
You're right the AA case is closed. The DNA is the final word. I would like an investigation into the fates of the two missing bodies that was not clouded by survivor stories. However, the likelihood of finding them is very slim, which is a shame as they'd possibly provide a final, definate answer to the fate of the whole family.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 24, 2006, 12:44:45 PM
Quote
[size=10]Dear OlgaNRomanovaFan,

You and millions of others would like to know the fate of the two missing bodies, that are not clouded by survivor stories. That's the 64 million dollar question to date, and one that the remaining members of the families would like to know. To put this to final rest is more than a prayer !

Tatiana+[/size]

I agree. The discovery of the bodies could potentially reveal so much, paticularly to those family members who have never fully known what had happened to their relatives and it's extremly frustrating that it's unlikely they'll ever be found.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 12:52:08 PM
No mystery????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two bodies are missing.

Yurovsky, who was the man [commandant] in charge of the execution and then took on the job of buriel has told us that the two missing bodies were burned and buried near the mass grave.  But no bodies have been found and it's not been because a whole lot of people haven't been looking.  AND, Yurovsky told us in his unpublished memiors which he gave to his son for safekeeping that  "a single body" was burned.  Ooooooooops.  He voiced just one was burned and never changed it even though it was in his house from 1920 to the day he died.  Hmmmmmmm.  

Posters should know that Yurovsky first testimony in 1920 was written after AA jumped into the Berlin canal.  

I don't believe AA was GD Anastasia,  but, please,  give posters the credit of being able to think for themselves.  Don't make demands that they must  think AA wasn't GD Anastasia.  Instead, give them all the truths.   Sweeping certain truths (what we don't like or understand which goes against our conclusion)  under the rug doesn't make it go away.  Deal with it.  Talk about it.  And, for heaven sake don't tell people there isn't a mystery because of the DNA.  We should be able to prove our case without using DNA.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 24, 2006, 01:01:24 PM
As long as there are 'missing' bodies, there will be conspiracy theories.  Come on, the murder of the Romanovs is a conspiracy theorist's dream. Fed by books written by investigative journalists, they honestly believe that missing body=survival.

I don't think the missing bodies WILL ever be found, and so I don't think this case will ever be truly 'closed'.  Even so, if the bodies were found, the case still wouldn't closed, because there are too many people who don't WANT to believe the truth.

Personally I think the bodies of the missing GD and Alexei have been scattered to the winds by now.  They were buried in a shallow grave, with no railway sleepers over the ground to protect them like the other mass grave.  We're talking 88 years of bones protected by a thin layer of dirt from the extremities of weather and also disturbance by animals and perhaps vehicles and human feet walking around.  Chances are this grave has been exposed and the bones scattered to such a degree that it would be impossible to come to any conclusion as to whether the missing bodies have been found, because there would just be fragments left.  These fragments could belong to the other bodies; it would be impossible to tell because there isn't the DNA to do individual testing.  It would perhaps be possible if a bone was found that was present in all the other bodies and so must therefore belong to a body not in the grave, but I doubt that would happen.

So, because some people cannot accept that the whole IF died, and because no matter what evidence is put in front of them that the likelihood of survival was ridiculously slim, the missing bodies will forever equal survival to the conspiracy theorists.

For me the answer is pretty simple; 11 people are in a room, being shot at point blank range by 12 people.  How many people realistically would walk out of that situation alive and well enough to recover? And how many haemophiliacs would survive the same situation?

It's laughable that people think these kids could have survived.  But...if they want to believe it, they're entitled to, I suppose!  ;D

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 24, 2006, 01:07:54 PM
Bear, I don't see that it really matters when Yurovsky wrote his testimony.  Yurovsky said so many conflicting things; ooooh he said one missing body then he said two; what bearing does this have on the AA case, I ask you?

Body missing + person claiming to be said missing body = AA must be AN is not a logical answer to the puzzle.

Let us not forget that there were hundreds of people claiming to be any one of the GDs and Alexei in the years following the execution.

Are you seriously suggesting that Yurovsky took into account Anna Anderson's claims when he made his testimony?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 01:19:24 PM
Over and over and over you voice these so-called facts which are not facts at all, Annie.

Quote

..[in part]...

About the two bodies, there are reports by the Bolsheviks that they were burned, though some disregard this because of conflicting reports by guys who told slightly different versions, casting doubt on them for those who want to keep believing. Sadly, if these bodies were burned, we will likely NEVER find them, since the ashes and charred bones would more than have disentigrated into the bog by now. Another reason I hate to see all of the attention to AA is that once the discussion gets onto that, everything else, including what actually happened to the two bodies, gets ignored, and this is the real mystery we need to explore now. The AA case is solved.

Forensic scientists tells us that the fuel [ acording to Yuurovsky] used to burn the body/bodies was only enough to have charred the body/bodies.  This means,  only the skin and fat were burned and melted away.  The rest of the body remained intact.  This means  the rest of the body, the muscles, tentions and bones remained as a whole but charred body.  They were not turned into ashes.  

Yurovsky claims he buried these charred bodies "near" the mass grave.

Far as we know,  no one has claimed to have found the two missing bodies.

IF these two bodies were buried "near" the mass grave,  then someone should find them.  The dead do not get up and walk away.

It may be possible that Yurovsky was not telling us the whole truth, nothing but the truth.  It may be possible that Yurovsky was telling us only part truths.  It may be possible that Yurovsky was telling us the whole truth.

The presentation of  truths as we know or discover them today or tomorrow has nothing to do with keeping a myth alive.

The simple and accurate statement should be and is:  Two bodies are missing.  Most assume the two died along with the others members of the family, however, without the remains of the two missing,  we have no physical proof the two were executed and buried near the mass grave.  


AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 01:44:40 PM
Quote
Bear, I don't see that it really matters when Yurovsky wrote his testimony.  Yurovsky said so many conflicting things; ooooh he said one missing body then he said two; what bearing does this have on the AA case, I ask you?

Body missing + person claiming to be said missing body = AA must be AN is not a logical answer to the puzzle.

Let us not forget that there were hundreds of people claiming to be any one of the GDs and Alexei in the years following the execution.

Are you seriously suggesting that Yurovsky took into account Anna Anderson's claims when he made his testimony?

Rachel
xx

#1

Quote
Bear, I don't see that it really matters when Yurovsky wrote his testimony.  Yurovsky said so many conflicting things; ooooh he said one missing body then he said two; what bearing does this have on the AA case, I ask you?  

Bear's Ans.: Up to this point in time,  Yurovsky had not signed his name to testimony as to what happen.  This was his first testimony and it took place after AA jumped into the canal in Berlin.  The year was 1920.

The copy of his unpublished memiors were kept by his son.

Yurovsky second published testimony was made in 1934.

Yes,  one can expect some conflict.  Memory fades.  But in 1920 and in 1934 Yurovsky states two bodies were burned.  He even tells us that there was a mistake that Alexandra was the one female they meant to have burnt but burned Demidova instead.  And, he was wrong then during the burning of the body/bodies and later in 1920 and 1934.  OR,  he was telling the truth and the Bolsheviks published the slightly altered version telling us two bodies were burned insitead of "a single body".....

His unpublished memoirs state "a single body" was burned.

You can ponder over this.  You can conclude it was some kind of error.... Or, you can view the two published testimonies are accurate but not his unpublished memoirs.  OR,  you can speculate that the Soviet officals made a slight change in his testimony and wrote two bodies were burned...

#2
Quote
Body missing + person claiming to be said missing body = AA must be AN is not a logical answer to the puzzle.
 

Bears Ans.:Some posters believe this is true and or possible.

I do not think AA was GD Anastsia.

A body missing, is exactly that:  a body missing

#3
Quote
Let us not forget that there were hundreds of people claiming to be any one of the GDs and Alexei in the years following the execution.

Bear's Ans.: I have a list of some of them on this forum.  It's an interesting list.  Go take a look when you have time.

Until someone can prove GD Anastasia survived then we have no proof she did.  Then, again, without a body, we have no physcial proof she didn't.

#4
Quote
Are you seriously suggesting that Yurovsky took into account Anna Anderson's claims when he made his testimony?

Bears Ans:  This is what Edvard R. seems be suggesting.

Quote
p. 417 THE LAST TSAR by Edvard Radzinsky:
 
>>By the way, Yurovsky was alarmed too;  evidently the rumors about Anastasia moved him to take actions as well.  In 1920,  when this mysterious, "miraclously saved' woman appeared in Berlin, he gave the historian Pokrovsky his Note, the idea behind which was  "They all died.'<<  


I am just pushing it out your way to get your thoughts.

Simon doesn't think the timing of Yurovsky's testimony has anything to do with AA who had jumped into the Berlin canal earlier that year.....

What do you think?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on May 24, 2006, 01:46:36 PM
Bear, no one ever said there was NO mystery, only that there was no more mystery about AA's identity.

Yes there are 2 missing bodies, but this does not equal survivors. Even though they may not have burned to ash, (though some do with gasoline, I won't get into gruesome stories I've heard of those who have died in fiery crashes leaving very little remains:( ) the charred bones would likely have dissolved into the bog by now. Wasn't there even one acount that said they were tossed into a swamp? Sadly it appears they will never be found, but even if they were, and DNA tests were done, this would not put an end to it. There are still some who don't believe the bones found were the IF, so there would also those who would say the other 2, if found, were planted, faked, or incorrectly tested. Sigh.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 02:21:50 PM
Quote
Bear, no one ever said there was NO mystery, only that there was no more mystery about AA's identity.

Yes there are 2 missing bodies, but this does not equal survivors. Even though they may not have burned to ash, (though some do with gasoline, I won't get into gruesome stories I've heard of those who have died in fiery crashes leaving very little remains:( ) the charred bones would likely have dissolved into the bog by now. Wasn't there even one acount that said they were tossed into a swamp? Sadly it appears they will never be found, but even if they were, and DNA tests were done, this would not put an end to it. There are still some who don't believe the bones found were the IF, so there would also those who would say the other 2, if found, were planted, faked, or incorrectly tested. Sigh.

#1
Quote
Bear, no one ever said there was NO mystery, only that there was no more mystery about AA's identity.

As you know,  I do not think  AA was GD Anastasia.   I have not come to a conclusion about the identity of AA being FS so this means there still is some mystery for me.....

#2
Quote
Yes there are 2 missing bodies...

We agree.

#3
Quote
...Even though they may not have burned to ash, (though some do with gasoline, I won't get into gruesome stories I've heard of those who have died in fiery crashes leaving very little remains:( ) the charred bones would likely have dissolved into the bog by now.

The two bodies were not in a fiery car crash if they were executed in the basement of the Ipatiev House.

Yurovsky tells us the fuel which was used.  The forensic people,  you know the experts,  tell us that turning the bodies to ash with this fuel was not possible.  

#4
Quote
Wasn't there even one acount that said they were tossed into a swamp?  


Because you keep telling us how good your memory is,  why are you asking this question as if you don't know the answer?  

Bear sits with a puzzled look.

For those who do not know,  yes,  Ermakov stated all the bodies were tossed into a swamp where they'd never be found.

Ermakov statements are often ignored because he's viewed as a braggart who wanted to be known as being more important than he was,  which included his claim to have been the one who killed Nicholas II, and,  because some believed he was too drunk to remember much about that night.

I'm pondering over this more than most.

#5
Quote
Sadly it appears they will never be found, but even if they were, and DNA tests were done, this would not put an end to it. There are still some who don't believe the bones found were the IF, so there would also those who would say the other 2, if found, were planted, faked, or incorrectly tested. Sigh.

Some believe the bones were not Nicholas IIs and the others.  This is true.  We have/had posters here who have stated this.

Who knows what would fall into place if the missing two bodies are found.  One thing is certain,  it  will be interesting.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 02:56:27 PM
Quote
As long as there are 'missing' bodies, there will be conspiracy theories.  Come on, the murder of the Romanovs is a conspiracy theorist's dream. Fed by books written by investigative journalists, they honestly believe that missing body=survival.

I don't think the missing bodies WILL ever be found, and so I don't think this case will ever be truly 'closed'.  Even so, if the bodies were found, the case still wouldn't closed, because there are too many people who don't WANT to believe the truth.

Personally I think the bodies of the missing GD and Alexei have been scattered to the winds by now.  They were buried in a shallow grave, with no railway sleepers over the ground to protect them like the other mass grave.  We're talking 88 years of bones protected by a thin layer of dirt from the extremities of weather and also disturbance by animals and perhaps vehicles and human feet walking around.  Chances are this grave has been exposed and the bones scattered to such a degree that it would be impossible to come to any conclusion as to whether the missing bodies have been found, because there would just be fragments left.  These fragments could belong to the other bodies; it would be impossible to tell because there isn't the DNA to do individual testing.  It would perhaps be possible if a bone was found that was present in all the other bodies and so must therefore belong to a body not in the grave, but I doubt that would happen.

So, because some people cannot accept that the whole IF died, and because no matter what evidence is put in front of them that the likelihood of survival was ridiculously slim, the missing bodies will forever equal survival to the conspiracy theorists.

For me the answer is pretty simple; 11 people are in a room, being shot at point blank range by 12 people.  How many people realistically would walk out of that situation alive and well enough to recover? And how many haemophiliacs would survive the same situation?

It's laughable that people think these kids could have survived.  But...if they want to believe it, they're entitled to, I suppose!  ;D

Rachel
xx

#1
Quote
As long as there are 'missing' bodies, there will be conspiracy theories.  Come on, the murder of the Romanovs is a conspiracy theorist's dream. Fed by books written by investigative journalists, they honestly believe that missing body=survival.  

Two bodies are missing.  Is their a reason  why why there should NOT be theories as to what happen to the bodies?

#2
Quote
I don't think the missing bodies WILL ever be found, and so I don't think this case will ever be truly 'closed'.  Even so, if the bodies were found, the case still wouldn't closed, because there are too many people who don't WANT to believe the truth.

I gave an answer a few minutes ago [found above] to this same kind of inquiry which was in Annie's post so I won't repeat it here.
 
I don't know if the missing bodies will ever be found.

#3
Quote
For me the answer is pretty simple; 11 people are in a room, being shot at point blank range by 12 people.  How many people realistically would walk out of that situation alive and well enough to recover? And how many haemophiliacs would survive the same situation?  

If that is what you have concluded happen, then that must be what happen.  Or is it?  

#4
Quote
It's laughable that people think these kids could have survived.  But...if they want to believe it, they're entitled to, I suppose!  ;D

Rachel
xx

After living some 63 years,  I realize what I thought was true yesterday, may not be true tomorrow.

I also have learned that it is rude to laugh at people who have different views than I have.  Maybe, by the time you've gotten a little older and a little wiser,  you'll have learned to respect others who have different views than you.  When that occurs, you'll  discover more people, not just those with whom you hold the same views,  will respect you and what you have to say.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on May 24, 2006, 04:03:18 PM
Bear,

First of all, Thank You. Thank you for taking the time to express sentiments as this :Quote:

After living some 63 years,  I realize what I thought was true yesterday, may not be true tomorrow.  
 
I also have learned that it is rude to laugh at people who have different views than I have.  Maybe, by the time you've gotten a little older and a little wiser,  you'll have learned to respect others who have different views than you.  When that occurs, you'll  discover more people, not just those with whom you hold the same views,  will respect you and what you have to say.
 End Quote/

I agree 100% !

Already, too many have insisted for the mainstay of posters who post, that they must take on their views, or they are hounded, endlessly humilated for thinking otherwise. This is not fair for anyone to go through, and really very bad manners !!!

Respect is for many a little known word and certainly abused many times throughout these threads. To state ones views is to do just that, nothing less, nothing more. But to take it to the extremes and having a gang sort of approach to attacking one or more posters does not lend itself to good communication, or keeping members. Too many have left for less than these kind of address to their persons.

For those of us whose family members went through and escaped these maniacal crazed fanatics, we are very well understanding of the extremes they, the communists] would go to to play games with the human minds, short term to ever ending.  
 
Games do not need to be repeated on any thread to play games with anyone's minds or feelings, period. It is childish to say the least, if not threatning, or just plain sick.

For those who only read historical instances as what the IF went through to the end, and think they have come to 'logical explanations' you might think again. There are no concrete answers, and certainly not to date about the 'two missing bodies'. Until these two bodies are found, there will always be questions. That is a fact, like it or not.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions, period. That is why these threads were created, for posters to come, share their thoughts, safetly. [right or wrong] In the end, real facts to cooberate from noted historians, will come to light and be shared, and then perhaps put things to rest. Til then we are free to express ourselves, without being impugned, etc.

Again thank you Bear for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

I think this might be an interesting thread to create as well, about how people feel about just sharing their views and how they are being received, or treated...

Now, back to the topic !

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 24, 2006, 04:31:07 PM
Quote
No mystery????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two bodies are missing.

If you were replying to me, I never said there was no mystery, just that the discovery of the bodies [which is unlikely] could reveal alot of what happened to the IF and perhaps offer some closure to relatives. I agree there is indeed a mystery as to where the bodies are, what happened to them etc.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Divia on May 24, 2006, 04:46:44 PM
I am glad everyone understands what I was trying to say.  :)

Friendly debate should always be encouraged.
But when that line is crossed and we have people saying...no you are wrong because of XY and  z and then the oppisite side says, you are wrong for xy and z makes little sense and it is just a big merry-go-round because there is no true answer.

There are pleanty of theories that could play out.  Alas, we do not know what happened.  Truth of the matter is we may never know what happened, which I think is very sad.  However, with more time maybe something will be found. Maybe a bone will be found somewhere...we just don't know.

I think we can all agree that AA is not GD A.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 24, 2006, 05:25:21 PM
Bear,

I do have respect for you and your views.

But personally, I think it IS laughable that it can be seriously debated if anyone survived.

For me, 11 people being shot at by 12 people in a small space = no chance of survival.

For me, believing AA was AN is also laughable.

That's my opinion.  Yes, you have every right to believe in survivors.  But I also have every right to think survivor theories are silly.  I have never laughed at you personally, I have never belittled you personally; I have never made things personal with you full stop.  Don't make this into some kind of personal thing when it isn't.

What gets me about you is that you repeatedly state you don't believe AA is AN, and yet you keep coming up with little comments and theories that do suggest you support AA's survival.  It's very tricky to respect someone and their arguments when they keep slipping and sliding and denying they believe things that they imply they do.  You say you don't believe in AA; but then you're saying here you believe someone survived.  What, you believe someone survived but the person who survived didn't grow up to be AN? What do you REALLY believe?

And please don't pull the older and wiser one on me. Personally, I find that offensive. I respect everyone on here.  I might not have a lot of respect for their theories, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them as people.  There is a division, and I think you're making this personal, Bear, when what I said was never intended to be so to anyone.  This started off as a general discussion, and you've brought this round to me being disrespectful and attacking you personally, when I haven't.  You've chosen to take what I said as a personal offence, and in doing so have basically told me that I am immature and ignorant.  

So, who's actually being disrespectful here? You are now making personal comments which are totally unprecedented and uncalled for.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 24, 2006, 05:42:32 PM
Quote
I think we can all agree that AA is not GD A.


You'd think so, but sadly that's not the case.

Some people don't accept the DNA results and keep on trying to prove that AA was AN, despite the overwhelming scientific, visual and circumstantial evidence against them.

As everyone keeps saying, no matter what proof there is, it's just never good enough for some.  If people want to believe something badly enough, they will, no matter what evidence is stacked against them.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 07:28:43 PM
Quote

..[in part]...

And please don't pull the older and wiser one on me. Personally, I find that offensive.

......
Rachel
xx

When you reach the age of 63 and some young person tells you that  you're not suppose to pull "the older and wiser one" on them,  smile, and,  remember me.

AGRBear

  



 

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 24, 2006, 07:35:31 PM
Back to topic:

Quote

...[in part]...
Two bodies are missing.

Yurovsky, who was the man [commandant] in charge of the execution and then took on the job of buriel has told us that the two missing bodies were burned and buried near the mass grave.  But no bodies have been found and it's not been because a whole lot of people haven't been looking.  AND, Yurovsky told us in his unpublished memiors which he gave to his son for safekeeping that  "a single body" was burned...  


AGRBear


So,  what do you think, are the two testimonies telling us the truth that there were two bodies burned or his memoirs telling us the truth and just a "single" body was burned?


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on May 24, 2006, 10:48:18 PM
Declaration on oath by Franz Svoboda, former Austrian prisoner-of-war, on 12th December, 1938:
"After two or three days there was talk in Ekaterinburg of Anastasia's complete disappearance, and the whole town was searched. I remember too that orders were given for the surrounding district to be searched as well, but without result.
I lived with farmers under cover in the town and surrounding country, until the Kolchak army arrived, and even when I was nearing Vladivostok with them, the search for Anastasia was still being carried on."

Declaration by A. Rohse in November 1956:
I, Arthur Rohse, born in East Prussia on 28th of May, 1897, was in 1918 a first-lieutenant of the special detachment in the army higher command of the First Siberian Army. After the capture of Ekaterinburg, I received orders from the staff of General Kappel, the commander of the First Army, to assemble an armoured train for purposes of safe transport and arrange with transport command that it should be ready to move at a moment's notice. These were special orders delivered to me as "strictly confidential." The train consisted of four fully manned armoured coaches, two in the van and two in the rear, and an ambulance coach which I was to put in the middle. I guessed that the operation was concerned with the rescue of one of the Tsar's daughters who by a fortunate chance had escaped from the massacre. There was a good deal of talk about a female body missing. The ambulance coach was under the direct supervision of Privy Councillor Dr. Niefyodov of St. Petersburg. The armoured train was to be dispatched in the direction of Orenburg. The Brigade Commander, Brigadier-General Dubensky, told me afterwards that the operation was concerned with one of the Tsar's daughters."

Declaration at Hörningsholm, 13th October, 1952, by Count Carl Bonde:
"In my capacity as head of the Swedish Red Cross mission to Siberia, I was travelling in a special train during 1918. At some place, the name of which I have forgotten, the train was stopped and searched for the Grand-Duchess Anastasia, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. The Grand-Duchess was not on the train, however. No one knew where she had got to."

And you probably remember the testimony of Heinrich Kleibenzetl, the tailor from the Popov house who swore he saw Anastasia lying in his bed after the massacre.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 26, 2006, 02:48:56 AM
Although Anastasia and Maria had similar facial features, if there was a significant difference in height why can't experts agree who was buried as Anastasia?  Were the bones indicating height really that damaged or missing?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 26, 2006, 03:29:25 AM
I think it was only possible to make approximate height estimates because of the missing bones.

Also, we don't know how much Maria and Anastasia grew during captivity, and for that reason, their actual heights immediately prior to their murder aren't known.  Anastasia may have grown to be about equal to Maria's height during captivity; we just don't know.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 26, 2006, 07:40:23 AM
There's an interesting discussion as to who's bones are missing here:

http://www.livadia.org/missing

As the site itself says : The content of this site is highly circumstantial.

There is a height comparison, but as Ra-Ra-Rasputin said, we can't know how much Maria or Anastasia grew whilst in Ekaterinberg.


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 26, 2006, 09:02:56 PM
Quote

Quote


 That reality wouldn't elliminate the equally real possibility that one of their children or grandchildren would post on this site. I happen to believe that they already have done so. JonC.

I'll give you this much, your Grandma looks more like Anastasia than AA did!


Annie, thank you, it would be an honor to call her my grandmother but she's Mr. LoPresti's grandmother. Did you check out Anna Vyrubova's photo taken with his great grandmother? There is so much in his story that should be discussed and would make more sense than a discussion of AA... in my opinion. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: GD_Sasha on May 29, 2006, 01:15:49 PM

ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 29, 2006, 05:28:52 PM
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2006, 08:56:20 PM
Quote
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.

Absolutely correct OlgaNRomanovaFan and Nessa_Ancalimon!
 
In the confined space, the assassins would not botch such a task, if only to ensure that their monetary reward to conclude their "job" was waiting for them.

 
Only the assassins left the crime scene alive.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 29, 2006, 10:24:03 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.

Absolutely correct OlgaNRomanovaFan and Nessa_Ancalimon!
 
In the confined space, the assassins would not botch such a task, if only to ensure that their monetary reward to conclude their "job" was waiting for them.

 
Only the assassins left the crime scene alive.


Well, ofcourse, we all MUST believe in the unwaivering stories reported by Yarovsky. First there were two bodies burned then only one....I guess it's easier to just get it over with and believe they all died.

I choose to believe there is room for deception here. Belochka, maybe the' shooters ' did get paid for telling the stories they did tell in order that not one but all might escape. Money does talk very loud as does loyalty to a cause. Certainly the Imperial Family had loyalists ready to die and / or lie for them - why not at the Impatiev house? My comments here are just about possibilities of what could have happened as it is also possible that the stage was set for said actors to perform to ensure the escape took place. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2006, 11:39:12 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.

Absolutely correct OlgaNRomanovaFan and Nessa_Ancalimon!
 
In the confined space, the assassins would not botch such a task, if only to ensure that their monetary reward to conclude their "job" was waiting for them.

 
Only the assassins left the crime scene alive.


Well, ofcourse, we all MUST believe in the unwaivering stories reported by Yarovsky. First there were two bodies burned then only one....I guess it's easier to just get it over with and believe they all died.

I choose to believe there is room for deception here. Belochka, maybe the' shooters ' did get paid for telling the stories they did tell in order that not one but all might escape. Money does talk very loud as does loyalty to a cause. Certainly the Imperial Family had loyalists ready to die and / or lie for them - why not at the Impatiev house? My comments here are just about possibilities of what could have happened as it is also possible that the stage was set for said actors to perform to ensure the escape took place. JonC.

JonC I shall attempt to be civil to you but I know what you are getting at. Your very misguided presumption is just that.

Those assasins held weapons in their hands. Nikolai Sokolov's forensic examination of the crime scene at the Ipatiev House indicated that a stream of bullets were emitted from the murders' weapons. The number of bullets and impact hits did not arise from one lone weapon that was held in Yurovsky's hand.

The floor had so much blood that it required washing, which was evidence given after the fact.

There is no way that the Imperial Family and their loyal staff who sustained innumerable direct hits at close range if only to survive the penetration of sharp edges of the bayonets severing vital nerves and arteries. Systemic shock would ensure death.

Anthropologic studies on their remains conducted by both the United States and Russia clearly indicated severe trauma was sustained to all the skulls found. The second strand of analyses - the DNA assessments conducted by independent, accredited laboratories in England in 1993, U. S. Armed Forces in 1995, and in Moscow Russia, in 1998, sealed the forensic conclusions that satisfied Prince Nicholas Romanov, the present head of the Romanov Family, all the professional forensic investigators, and the Russian Government.


Let go of your pathetic notions and when you do that, only then can you begin to respect those you dishonor today.[/font] [/color]
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 30, 2006, 03:57:15 AM
Well said, Belochka.  :)

Nobody survived, that's that.

12 people shooting 11 people at close range in a room with no way out for the captives.  Not even David Blaine could get out of that one alive.

All reports concur that severe injuries resulting in death either in the room or outside of it were sustained by all arrested members of the Ipatiev household.  This is backed up by the state of the remains found to be the Romanovs in Pig's Meadow.

Two bodies missing does not equal survival.  Two bodies missing just indicates that two bodies are yet to be found.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 30, 2006, 06:17:14 AM
Quote
Well said, Belochka.  :)

Nobody survived, that's that.

12 people shooting 11 people at close range in a room with no way out for the captives.  Not even David Blaine could get out of that one alive.

All reports concur that severe injuries resulting in death either in the room or outside of it were sustained by all arrested members of the Ipatiev household.  This is backed up by the state of the remains found to be the Romanovs in Pig's Meadow.

Two bodies missing does not equal survival.  Two bodies missing just indicates that two bodies are yet to be found.

Rachel
xx

Many thanks for your endorsement Rachel.  :)  One day remnants will be located to put this entire matter to rest.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 30, 2006, 10:42:09 AM
By the same token, millions of bodies are missing from far worse murder scenarios, yet no one denies they are, indeed, dead. [as I have pointed out numerous times].
 So what makes these two, insignificant children [in the scheme of world history] so important ?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 30, 2006, 11:42:49 AM
Quote
....[in part]....

Those assasins held weapons in their hands. Nikolai Sokolov's forensic examination of the crime scene at the Ipatiev House indicated that a stream of bullets were emitted from the murders' weapons. The number of bullets and impact hits did not arise from one lone weapon that was held in Yurovsky's hand.

The floor had so much blood that it required washing, which was evidence given after the fact.

There is no way that the Imperial Family and their loyal staff who sustained innumerable direct hits at close range if only to survive the penetration of sharp edges of the bayonets severing vital nerves and arteries. Systemic shock would ensure death.

Anthropologic studies on their remains conducted by both the United States and Russia clearly indicated severe trauma was sustained to all the skulls found. The second strand of analyses - the DNA assessments conducted by independent, accredited laboratories in England in 1993, U. S. Armed Forces in 1995, and in Moscow Russia, in 1998, sealed the forensic conclusions that satisfied Prince Nicholas Romanov, the present head of the Romanov Family, all the professional forensic investigators, and the Russian Government. [/color]

Let go of your pathetic notions and when you do that, only then can you begin to respect those you dishonor today.[/font] [/color]


#1
Belochka:
Quote
Those assasins held weapons in their hands. Nikolai Sokolov's forensic examination of the crime scene at the Ipatiev House indicated that a stream of bullets were emitted from the murders' weapons. The number of bullets and impact hits did not arise from one lone weapon that was held in Yurovsky's hand.

Bear:  The type of weapons can be determined by the bullets.  The number of bullets changes in various reports.  How many bullets are you counting as being accurate and from whose report?  

I believe it was Gilliard, who was not alone in this speculation,  who did NOT believe the eleven could have been killed due to the lack of bullets he first saw in the walls.  He changed his story later.

I don't believe anyone has stated that Yurovsky was alone.  So,  what are you trying to say?

All we have are the reports of the executioners as to whom was shot.  It was suggested by several of the investigators,  who came long before Sokolov,  that the entire execution was staged.  

How many people outside who gave their testimony tell us that there were 20 to 100 shots fired and heard that night?

#2
Belochka:
Quote
The floor had so much blood that it required washing, which was evidence given after the fact.
 

Bear:  Did the people who gave testimony about washing the blood away know if the blood was human or animal?

If it was human blood,  remember, there was a war going on and blood of  other executed victims would easily have been gotten and used to spash over the floors if indeed the execution was staged that night.

I believe there were four Lett bodies found near Four Brother's Mine whom some investigator thought might have been the real victims shot in the Ipatiev basement.

#3
Belochka:
Quote
Systemic shock would ensure death.

Bear:  Was there sytemic shock?  We don't know that there was by any of the 11 that night.  All we know is what the remains found in the mass grave tell us.  Like Maples tell us in the title of his book, DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES.

#4
Belochka:
Quote
Anthropologic studies on their remains conducted by both the United States and Russia clearly indicated severe trauma was sustained to all the skulls found.

Bear: The skulls found tell us that blows were made but not when or by whom or when.  The sloppy way the Russians dug up the bones could have damaged the skulls....  Just think how a blade of a shovel being shoved into the ground could have damaged a skull....

#5
Belochka:
Quote
The second strand of analyses - the DNA assessments conducted by independent, accredited laboratories in England in 1993, U. S. Armed Forces in 1995, and in Moscow Russia, in 1998, sealed the forensic conclusions that satisfied Prince Nicholas Romanov, the present head of the Romanov Family, all the professional forensic investigators, and the Russian Government.  

I have asked all my questions and received answer over on the DNA threads.  At this time,  I have no reason to doubt the various tests about the comparisons with Prince Philip and the remains of the bones of the Romanovs used.  But then,  I am not an expert on this subject.

I believe DNA tests for the servents, accept one who had not known kin, seems to follow the evidence that Botkin and the others are whom the reports claim they were.

.....continued next post.......
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 30, 2006, 11:44:00 AM
(continued)

#6
Belochka:
Quote

Let go of your pathetic notions and when you do that, only then can you begin to respect those you dishonor today.



It does no one any good to redicule people who do not believe one or all eleven were executed that night in the Ipatiev House.  Let the evidence provide us with what we can know and what we can NOT know.  

We do know the remains of  nine of eleven whom the Ural Soviets and the  CHEKA's claimed were executed that night were found in a mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Two of the eleven are missing from the mass grave.

It wasn't until after Anna Anderson shows up in an asylum that Yurovsky gives and then  signs his first testimony in 1920.  Yurovsky tells us in the 1920 and 1934 testimony that Alexei and Demidov were buried near the mass grave.

The grave with the two missing remains of Alexei and one of the Grand Duchesses [ Yurovsky could not  tell the difference between the body of an eldery woman and a body of a young woman because Demidov was in the mass grave and it's one of the Grand Duchess who is missing] has not been found.  

You can assume the two missing were killed.

You can assume the two missing couldn't have escaped.

There are more than 40 testimonies giving us hints that one, Anastasia, might have escaped.

There is testmonies stating that trains were stopped and Red soldier were searching for Alexei.  One father, who gave testimony, had a fright when the Red soldiers thought this father's son was Alexei and started to pull him away to who knows where.....

People in 1918 and 1919 seem to know that two were missing and the two were Alexei and Anastasia.  Coincidence?  Maybe.

The only one who was bostering about his part was Ermakov, but, now, we're told he was so drunk that his memory is faulty not just for the executions but also for the buriels....

As for Sokolov,  I believe he purposely left out important evidence which gave any kind of hint that two survived.   Afterall,  he was under the gun of Gen. Dietrihks [sp] who wanted the world to think the "evil" Bolsheviks gunned down in cold blood not just the ex-Tsar but his wife, children and servents.  

Sokolov,  you must remember, appeared on the scene long after most evidence was gathered by earlier investigators.  Some of the investgators were independent of the White Generals.  One particular investigator was shot and killed.  His collection of evidence vanished....

All of Sokolov's collection was held for a time by the White Generals.  Who knows what they removed before giving it back to Sokolov.  Certain evidence was stolen by Bolshevik agents which was reported....... I think it occured in Germany.  I'll have to dig out my book.

What Sokolov, White Generals, thieves, CHEKA, GPU, KGB, Ural and Moscow Soviets have omited, destroyed or misplaced can never be fully known.   So,  those of you who think you know "exactly" what happen should realize what you know is what Sokolov, White Generals, thieves, CHEKA, GPU, KGB, Ural and Moscow Soviet  wanted you to think happen.

I respect the truth no matter where I find it and I do not care where it takes me on this adventure.

AGRBear




  
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on May 30, 2006, 12:00:19 PM
Quote
By the same token, millions of bodies are missing from far worse murder scenarios, yet no one denies they are, indeed, dead. [as I have pointed out numerous times].
 So what makes these two, insignificant children [in the scheme of world history] so important ?

A good question.  Are these questions and answers very important in the BIG PICTURE of life?

For those of us who questions the Bolsheviks truthfullness,  it is just the tip of the iceberg loaded with lies and deceptions the Bolsheviks have given us since their conception.

Many of the Russians and outsiders continue to believe the history the Bolsheviks and later the communist wrote.  This is where the little things build into something VERY IMPRORTANT.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 30, 2006, 01:30:49 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.

Absolutely correct OlgaNRomanovaFan and Nessa_Ancalimon!
 
In the confined space, the assassins would not botch such a task, if only to ensure that their monetary reward to conclude their "job" was waiting for them.

 
Only the assassins left the crime scene alive.


Well, ofcourse, we all MUST believe in the unwaivering stories reported by Yarovsky. First there were two bodies burned then only one....I guess it's easier to just get it over with and believe they all died.

I choose to believe there is room for deception here. Belochka, maybe the' shooters ' did get paid for telling the stories they did tell in order that not one but all might escape. Money does talk very loud as does loyalty to a cause. Certainly the Imperial Family had loyalists ready to die and / or lie for them - why not at the Impatiev house? My comments here are just about possibilities of what could have happened as it is also possible that the stage was set for said actors to perform to ensure the escape took place. JonC.

JonC I shall attempt to be civil to you but I know what you are getting at. Your very misguided presumption is just that.

Those assasins held weapons in their hands. Nikolai Sokolov's forensic examination of the crime scene at the Ipatiev House indicated that a stream of bullets were emitted from the murders' weapons. The number of bullets and impact hits did not arise from one lone weapon that was held in Yurovsky's hand.

The floor had so much blood that it required washing, which was evidence given after the fact.

There is no way that the Imperial Family and their loyal staff who sustained innumerable direct hits at close range if only to survive the penetration of sharp edges of the bayonets severing vital nerves and arteries. Systemic shock would ensure death.

Anthropologic studies on their remains conducted by both the United States and Russia clearly indicated severe trauma was sustained to all the skulls found. The second strand of analyses - the DNA assessments conducted by independent, accredited laboratories in England in 1993, U. S. Armed Forces in 1995, and in Moscow Russia, in 1998, sealed the forensic conclusions that satisfied Prince Nicholas Romanov, the present head of the Romanov Family, all the professional forensic investigators, and the Russian Government.


Let go of your pathetic notions and when you do that, only then can you begin to respect those you dishonor today.[/font] [/color]


Belochka...I do like you...infact I convince myself about a lot of things. With respect to the reports of ' THE masacre of the Royal Family ' I believe they are just that ' reports '. I don't believe that anyone there were told to tell the truth, plain and simple! Now if the whole believing world of Romanov dilitants choose to believe those reports they are entitled to do so!

Now how my choice of hope in the survival of the Tsar and his family brings as you say...DISHONOR... to them astounds me to no end. I can't believe you to have no compassion in your heart for their possible well being. It just shows me how some members of this forum have divorced themselves into thinking so highly in their so-called ' credentials ' that it makes me sick! :'( :-[ :'( :'( :-[
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 30, 2006, 08:13:26 PM
Quote
By the same token, millions of bodies are missing from far worse murder scenarios, yet no one denies they are, indeed, dead. [as I have pointed out numerous times].
 So what makes these two, insignificant children [in the scheme of world history] so important ?

The Tsesarevich and Grand Duchess Marie are hardly "insignificant children" Robert. They were members of the Russia's last Imperial Family. They are part of our history and that fact alone will set them apart.

We can weep for all the unknown children who died horrendous deaths but we weep more for those with whom we are more familiar. It is also a matter of deep respect for WHO those two very significant children were.
 
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 30, 2006, 08:23:35 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
ANYONE can say that they are AN, especially how the public can believe anything(not all however). It just so happens that AA was the most convincing. Just because two bodies are missing, it doesn't mean that anyone survived. And it seems quite impossible to live in such a room, with so many people shooting and then making sure all are dead. Hope this doesn't sound rude.

It doesn't sound rude and I agree with you, I personally believe there is no chance that someone could have survived that night.

Absolutely correct OlgaNRomanovaFan and Nessa_Ancalimon!
 
In the confined space, the assassins would not botch such a task, if only to ensure that their monetary reward to conclude their "job" was waiting for them.

 
Only the assassins left the crime scene alive.


Well, ofcourse, we all MUST believe in the unwaivering stories reported by Yarovsky. First there were two bodies burned then only one....I guess it's easier to just get it over with and believe they all died.

I choose to believe there is room for deception here. Belochka, maybe the' shooters ' did get paid for telling the stories they did tell in order that not one but all might escape. Money does talk very loud as does loyalty to a cause. Certainly the Imperial Family had loyalists ready to die and / or lie for them - why not at the Impatiev house? My comments here are just about possibilities of what could have happened as it is also possible that the stage was set for said actors to perform to ensure the escape took place. JonC.

JonC I shall attempt to be civil to you but I know what you are getting at. Your very misguided presumption is just that.

Those assasins held weapons in their hands. Nikolai Sokolov's forensic examination of the crime scene at the Ipatiev House indicated that a stream of bullets were emitted from the murders' weapons. The number of bullets and impact hits did not arise from one lone weapon that was held in Yurovsky's hand.

The floor had so much blood that it required washing, which was evidence given after the fact.

There is no way that the Imperial Family and their loyal staff who sustained innumerable direct hits at close range if only to survive the penetration of sharp edges of the bayonets severing vital nerves and arteries. Systemic shock would ensure death.

Anthropologic studies on their remains conducted by both the United States and Russia clearly indicated severe trauma was sustained to all the skulls found. The second strand of analyses - the DNA assessments conducted by independent, accredited laboratories in England in 1993, U. S. Armed Forces in 1995, and in Moscow Russia, in 1998, sealed the forensic conclusions that satisfied Prince Nicholas Romanov, the present head of the Romanov Family, all the professional forensic investigators, and the Russian Government.


Let go of your pathetic notions and when you do that, only then can you begin to respect those you dishonor today.[/font] [/color]


Belochka...I do like you...infact I convince myself about a lot of things. With respect to the reports of ' THE masacre of the Royal Family ' I believe they are just that ' reports '. I don't believe that anyone there were told to tell the truth, plain and simple!


JonC by your own admission, why not face the truth? It's not hard to discard your illusions.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on May 30, 2006, 09:53:16 PM
Belochka, my sweet thing, you need to take your own advice dear. Next time, when you quote what I write please include the whole passage written in order to make better sense of your nonsense...with all due respect to your ' credentials '.JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on May 30, 2006, 10:22:39 PM
Quote
Next time, when you quote what I write please include the whole passage written in order ...
.JonC.

[size=10]JonC It is my privilege to use quotes in the manner I believe it to be appropriate to this discussion. Thank you[/size].[/color]
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 02, 2006, 02:12:22 PM
Jon C. ,

There is room for deception by Yurovsky and the others.

It is speculated that Yurovsky's daughter was placed in prison to make sure he would remain silent about what happen that night.

Yurovsky's daughter was a devoted communists and the reason given for her arrest is about as lame as Yurovsky's story about burning and buriel of  the two bodies [one whom he claimed was Demidov] which are missing and no where to be found where he claimed they were.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 02, 2006, 02:34:20 PM
I really think the biggest factor in the different reports of who was who were caused by the simple fact that most of these guys couldn't tell one girl from the other! Think about it, most Bolsheviks came from poor families, many grew up hating the regime, they weren't the type to hang pics of the family on the wall, and even if they did, the girls in captivity bore little resemblance to the glamor shots. Remember too that all their hair had been shaved off completely bald after the measles, so it was short even after it began to grow out. In pics we see bulky, layered peasant looking clothes and almost ever present hats. While most everyone could recognize the Tsar on sight, probably the Tsarina and heir/Tsarevich too, the girls would have been harder to tell apart to someone who wasn't interested (Demidova could easily have been mistaken for one of them too, if they didn't know all the girls' looks enough and here was just another female in the mix) Also, consider they didn't have the books and internet pics we have today, and few if any would have taken the time to learn their names or even care. Not being fans of the Romanovs, I seriously doubt those who killed and disposed of the family could have named each of the girls accurately alive, much less dead and bloody. Anyone ever think about that?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on June 02, 2006, 08:48:30 PM
I don't know, but this has bothered me a bit so I have decided to say my say.

One life or a million or more, are ALL of importance, regardless what murder scenarios they have been left in. But all the more, IS that innocent children should never have to pay for hate that prevails anywhere in the world.

Children by far, are not, no never insignificant, ever, and especially in the scheme of world history.

I don't even know why this had to be expressed. I makes me feel sad that this is how people look at life, and or death.

It's only when you have survived impossible odds, horrendous difficulties, and cheated death, that one can speak from this point of view, as I have above. All life is precious, and none is more important than another, at any time of the worlds history.

Tatiana+



Quote
By the same token, millions of bodies are missing from far worse murder scenarios, yet no one denies they are, indeed, dead. [as I have pointed out numerous times].
 So what makes these two, insignificant children [in the scheme of world history] so important ?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 02, 2006, 09:40:52 PM
Tania, congratulations on your own personal martyology. But you and Belochka both missed the point I was trying make.  None of us would be the least bit aware of these children if it were not for the matter of their tragic deaths. THAT is what makes them important to some of you, their deaths.
Alexei would have likely died young, as his Spanish & English cousins with the same affliction did and you might find him a footnote in some royal bio.  The GDs in exile or not, would have dissapeared into genealogical charts.
My personal opinion of them is not important. I am trying to put them in terms of relevance to history. You both treat them as devotional candles.
 There is a difference in outlook, that is all.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on June 02, 2006, 09:51:18 PM
[size=10]Gotcha ! Thanks for your allowing me to understand your perspective. Sorry, it's been a long week, and a very long day.

Hope your weekend's a good one ! Take care.

Tatiana+[/size]

Quote
Tania, congratulations on your own personal martyology. But you and Belochka both missed the point I was trying make.  None of us would be the least bit aware of these children if it were not for the matter of their tragic deaths. THAT is what makes them important to some of you, their deaths.
Alexei would have likely died young, as his Spanish & English cousins with the same affliction did and you might find him a footnote in some royal bio.  The GDs in exile or not, would have dissapeared into genealogical charts.
My personal opinion of them is not important. I am trying to put them in terms of relevance to history. You both treat them as devotional candles.
 There is a difference in outlook, that is all.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on June 02, 2006, 10:11:24 PM
Quote
Jon C. ,

There is room for deception by Yurovsky and the others.

It is speculated that Yurovsky's daughter was placed in prison to make sure he would remain silent about what happen that night.

Yurovsky's daughter was a devoted communists and the reason given for her arrest is about as lame as Yurovsky's story about burning and buriel of  the two bodies [one whom he claimed was Demidov] which are missing and no where to be found where he claimed they were.

AGRBear




Thanks Bear, I never knew that. The more I find out about Yurovsky the more I wonder just how complicit he was to the so-called murder of the Imperial Family. If I didn't know better I would be enclined to believe that he probably helped them escape.

Now if Yurovsky told a big tale even say for his daughter's sake what about any of the other stories we have read even from Sokolov...I think that's how you spell his name...was he threatened or paid off also?

What about that proud, boastfull group who claimed to have murdered Grand Duke Michael? His body was never found to confirm the event ever took place and yet everyone believes their proud story. All this makes me wonder indeed. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 02, 2006, 10:24:07 PM
I'm really surprised there weren't claimants for Michael, since his body was never found and he would have easily outranked anyone else in exile, even AN.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on June 02, 2006, 11:06:36 PM
Quote
Tania, congratulations on your own personal martyology. But you and Belochka both missed the point I was trying make.  None of us would be the least bit aware of these children if it were not for the matter of their tragic deaths. THAT is what makes them important to some of you, their deaths.
Alexei would have likely died young, as his Spanish & English cousins with the same affliction did and you might find him a footnote in some royal bio.  The GDs in exile or not, would have dissapeared into genealogical charts.
My personal opinion of them is not important. I am trying to put them in terms of relevance to history. You both treat them as devotional candles.
 There is a difference in outlook, that is all.

[size=10]No Robert, Alexei during his life and in death will always remain historically significant. That fact can never be discounted.

We all agree that his life would have been short had there been different circumstances, but the very fact that he was the only son of the Emperor clearly distinguished him, and certainly not just as a simple entry in some "genealogical charts" for us to read today.

And yes I will light a candle to his living memory.

Margarita [/size]
[/color]
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Belochka on June 02, 2006, 11:16:01 PM
Quote
I'm really surprised there weren't claimants for Michael, since his body was never found and he would have easily outranked anyone else in exile, even AN.

[size=10]This curiosity may have something to do with the fact that his wife and their son remained alive in exile. It would not have been a wise move to contemplate such a performance. [/size][/color] ;)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 02, 2006, 11:24:51 PM
Ok, Belochka, just what was signifcant- historically- about the life of Alexei ? He was indeed the only son of the Emperor, but there was never a lack of an heir. The sucession was secured through the Fundamental Laws.  I am not denigrating these poor children's lives  nor their deaths. Their behavior in such adversity is admirable, as the Church has acknowleged.
The topic of this thread is "survivors".  As we all pretty much agree that there were none, the only reason they are paid any attention is the speculation of that- SURVIVORS.  Those who carry on the conspiricy and collaboration theories denigrate that honour more than I ever could. I respect those who lost their lives so brutally, for whatever reason. If you are so affronted by my less than adoring attitude to them, so be it. Not everyone is an acolyte to the Romanov mystique.
By the way, I light candles as well.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on June 03, 2006, 10:18:18 PM
Mr. Hall, I can't for the life in me understand why you think that  those of the Imperial Family who may have survived are being ' dishonored ' by those who hope they survived and lived.

I see no honor in being killed against one's will and for no apparent reason. I believe what has happened is that well meaning persons like yourself are projecting empathy on a victim(s), in this case, the Imperial Family. You have created an aura around them which you don't want anyone to remove and if they do its 'dishonor'. But its all in your own head and in the heads of many others out there who have placed them in a similar tomb. The ' dishonor ' you sense is of your own making/imagination and has nothing to do with those who survived. They could never be dishonored by anyone hoping that they survived.

I am sure the survivors would rather be ' honored ' by everyone giving them the benefit of the doubt that they indeed lived a full and rich life. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 04, 2006, 12:30:36 AM
JonC.  Very well.  My opinion of the dead imperials is entirely personal. However, the Church has indeed declared them saints, dieing in a Christlike manner. Anyone who denies those deaths, therefore denies the Church's  judgement. The very Church that those who died in Ekaterinberg held  firmly on to.
 You tell the Church they so firmly believed in that they did not die. Take down the icons, snuff out the candles and tell us all it another Romanov myth.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on June 04, 2006, 08:19:28 PM
Mr. Hall, The Orthodox Church Abroad has declared the IF martyrs and has deified them yes. But I consider that an extreme error. The Orthodox Church in Moscow i.e. the Moscow Patriarchate under Patriarch Alexy has refused to do so even with the discovery of the so-called ' Romanov ' bones.

I have recently been in contact with the Moscow Patriarchate because they wanted more information on the 'alexofdenmark' website which showed the survival of IF members. They wanted 'concrete suggestions ' from me for them to consider. They must believe that the IF did survive!

Does Patriarch Alexy know something we don't? JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 04, 2006, 09:13:50 PM
JonC, I too am rather familiar with the workings of both Russian Orthodox churches. Perhaps the Patriarch does know something and perhaps he is as much in the dark as the rest of us for answers. The definiitve answer about the "sainthood" has been answered.  BOTH churches have sanctified the Imperial Family. [at different times, admittedly]. So, as the Romanovs that remain within either Church recognise those decisions.
 There is no dishonour in repudiating apostasy. So says the patriarchs.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 05, 2006, 05:42:07 PM
Quote
I really think the biggest factor in the different reports of who was who were caused by the simple fact that most of these guys couldn't tell one girl from the other! Think about it, most Bolsheviks came from poor families, many grew up hating the regime, they weren't the type to hang pics of the family on the wall, and even if they did, the girls in captivity bore little resemblance to the glamor shots. Remember too that all their hair had been shaved off completely bald after the measles, so it was short even after it began to grow out. In pics we see bulky, layered peasant looking clothes and almost ever present hats. While most everyone could recognize the Tsar on sight, probably the Tsarina and heir/Tsarevich too, the girls would have been harder to tell apart to someone who wasn't interested (Demidova could easily have been mistaken for one of them too, if they didn't know all the girls' looks enough and here was just another female in the mix) Also, consider they didn't have the books and internet pics we have today, and few if any would have taken the time to learn their names or even care. Not being fans of the Romanovs, I seriously doubt those who killed and disposed of the family could have named each of the girls accurately alive, much less dead and bloody. Anyone ever think about that?

I can understand how  Yurovsky and his men could have mixed up the two bodies of Demidov, age 40,  and Alexandra, age 46.  Older women's bodies are similar.  Despite what Yurovsky tells us,  it's not either of these women's bodies which are missing from the mass grave.  

Even though most posters, now,  admit Yurovsky was in error about Demidov and Alexander,  we're, now, suppose to believe that these men couldn't tell the difference between bodies of women in their 40s to that of young ladies in their twenties to 18.

If it is true, then each of these men must have been one of the following:  blind, half blind, very nearsighted or very very drunk.

AGRBear

 



Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2006, 09:12:38 PM
They may have been drunk, but I still say the major reason was that the bodies were bloody and in bad shape, and also I don't think most of them really knew who was who by name anyway.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 05, 2006, 09:28:12 PM
"bad shape" is putting it mildly, Annie. They would have been unrecognizabe to their nearest and dearests.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on June 06, 2006, 12:51:31 PM
Quote
JonC, I too am rather familiar with the workings of both Russian Orthodox churches. Perhaps the Patriarch does know something and perhaps he is as much in the dark as the rest of us for answers. The definiitve answer about the "sainthood" has been answered.  BOTH churches have sanctified the Imperial Family. [at different times, admittedly]. So, as the Romanovs that remain within either Church recognise those decisions.
 There is no dishonour in repudiating apostasy. So says the patriarchs.


I wasn't aware that the Moscow Patriarchate had sanctified all the Romanovs. Last communication I had the Patriarch had not accepted the death any of them in occuring in 1918. The Moscow Church also hasn't acknowledged, officially, that the bones discovered were of all the Romanovs. The Church still believes that there were two survivors. Maybe you have info I don't. Please show me your source.

As far as 'Apostasy' is concerned I hope you are right! JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 07, 2006, 12:16:28 PM
Quote
They may have been drunk, but I still say the major reason was that the bodies were bloody and in bad shape, and also I don't think most of them really knew who was who by name anyway.


It appears that you have forgotten the discussion about how the bodies were not in "bad shape" and "bloody" when they removed them from the icy waters of the Four Brother's Mine.

Let me explain, again,  when the bodies were placed in the icy waters it was like Yurovsky's men were placing the bodies into  deep freeze and this cold temperature of the water kept the bodies from decomposting at a regular rate.

There is a testimony about how the bodies were in such good shape  the victims appeared to be almost alive and in a deep sleep as the Bolsheviks pulled them out of the mine shaft and placed the bodies on the ground.   One of the testimonies goes into detail on Nicholas II's appearance.....

The motion of placing them in the shaft's water  and then taking them out of the water  may have washed the bodies to some degree and a lot of the blood was gone.

According to testimonies: In this icy state the bodies were then taken away on  trucks and nine of the bodies  ended up on the ground in Pig's Meadow.  

Forensic scientists claim if this is indeed what happened to the bodies, then they were in good shape and not bloated and out of shape so they should have been able to tell the differences between 40 year bodies of two women to that of the younger women's bodies.
  
Since I'm not an expert and only watch CIA and listen to my DA friends,  I do not doubt the conclusions of the real forensice scientists and what they have established.

The rifle butts were not used on the faces until just before the nine bodies were placed in the grave.

Remember, there were no rifles used during the execution, only pistols.  See testimonies and evidence of bullets found.

The nine bodies were then placed in the mass grave....

AGRBear

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 09, 2006, 08:44:52 PM
There were no survivors!

Despite all but unanimous agreement to this statement amongst the serious Russian Historians of the past 85 years, a small group of amateur historians or hobbyists find giving up the incorrect belief that there were one or more survivors, to be as difficult as giving up the use of addictive narcotics.

It is much better to be stubborn in the belief of a truth than stubborn in the belief of a lie.

David
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 10, 2006, 02:13:48 AM
Check out "The Love of the Marvellous and the Disbelief of the True" from the book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds."  http://www.litrix.com/madraven/madne010.htm  Strange to say, it was omitted from every printed copy I could find of the book, so I printed it from the online copy because I find it so relevant every time I discuss historical controversies.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 11, 2006, 04:17:43 PM
Quote
There were no survivors!

Despite all but unanimous agreement to this statement amongst the serious Russian Historians of the past 85 years, a small group of amateur historians or hobbyists find giving up the incorrect belief that there were one or more survivors, to be as difficult as giving up the use of addictive narcotics.

It is much better to be stubborn in the belief of a truth than stubborn in the belief of a lie.

David

David,  the fact that two bodies are missing is not a lie.

Can we agree on this?

AGRBear

 

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 11, 2006, 04:34:52 PM
What about-
They are NOT missing, they just have not been found yet ? [or at least what is left of them]
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 11, 2006, 06:48:29 PM
Quote
David,  the fact that two bodies are missing is not a lie.

Can we agree on this?

AGRBear

Bear,

This topic is about survivors. That you responded to my statements by using the word 'bodies' shows that even you are not so removed from the obvious reality that all the children were killed in 1918. This of course would mean that there were no survivors!  

If the present day unavailabilty of identified corpses were the indication that someone did not die when executed by the Bolsheviks, then how would we know that the four grand dukes executed in Peter and Paul Fortress in 1919, did not really escape to the isolated Himalayan Kingdom of Bhutan and become Buddhist monks?*

David


*I just created this new 'myth' for this post but it would seem just as plausable as all those created about the missing corpses of the two children.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 11, 2006, 07:16:43 PM
Of course, the end of speculation would put some posters, with their endless posts, out of business...if only....
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2006, 01:25:15 PM
Quote
Quote
David,  the fact that two bodies are missing is not a lie.

Can we agree on this?

AGRBear

Bear,

This topic is about survivors. That you responded to my statements by using the word 'bodies' shows that even you are not so removed from the obvious reality that all the children were killed in 1918. This of course would mean that there were no survivors!  

If the present day unavailabilty of identified corpses were the indication that someone did not die when executed by the Bolsheviks, then how would we know that the four grand dukes executed in Peter and Paul Fortress in 1919, did not really escape to the isolated Himalayan Kingdom of Bhutan and become Buddhist monks?*

David


*I just created this new 'myth' for this post but it would seem just as plausable as all those created about the missing corpses of the two children.


My body is alive and well as I type this.

A body is a physical struture living or dead.

Let me see,  if someone opens a grave and pulls out a coffin and there is no body inside,  it means there is no body, living or dead, inside the coffin.  So,  the next step would be to find evidence as to why there is no body, living or dead, inside the coffin, or, in this case, a grave near the mass grave of nine others in Pig's Meadow.

I do not kown what happen to the bodies, living or dead, of the four Grand Dukes.   The Bolsheivks told us they executed them and placed them in a common grave.  Do we know for certain?  I don't know enough about this execution to make any farter comments.  

Creation of a "myth" is not my intent.  Asking questions and finding the truth is.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2006, 01:27:54 PM
Quote
Of course, the end of speculation would put some posters, with their endless posts, out of business...if only....

I will continue to ask questions which incorporates a certain amount of "speculations" until we know what happen to Alexie and one of the grand duchesses.

So,  do we agree that two bodies are missing from the mass grave?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 12, 2006, 03:05:44 PM
I think we can agree that two corpses that were said to be in the mass grave were either buried elsewhere or burnt along the way from the Ipatiev House to the mass grave. That written, I still be believe that there were no survivors!, as do most other sensible people. That you continue to ask the same questions in various forms day in and day out only makes you appear as an obcessive rather that a sleuth. Maybe you should purchase the most sensitive ground penetrating equipment and spend the next few years examining Pig's Meadow and the surrounding paths with your scientific team. This would at least be better that rephrasing all of the questions in a dozen different forms just to get back to the basic conclusion that the corpses have yet to be located.

David
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2006, 04:00:59 PM
Quote
I think we can agree that two corpses that were said to be in the mass grave were either buried elsewhere or burnt along the way from the Ipatiev House to the mass grave. That written, I still be believe that there were no survivors!, as do most other sensible people. That you continue to ask the same questions in various forms day in and day out only makes you appear as an obcessive rather that a sleuth. Maybe you should purchase the most sensitive ground penetrating equipment and spend the next few years examining Pig's Meadow and the surrounding paths with your scientific team. This would at least be better that rephrasing all of the questions in a dozen different forms just to get back to the basic conclusion that the corpses have yet to be located.

David

I will admit that I am "obsessive" about sleuthing for the truth and it doesn't depend upon the subject matter.

As for going to Russia to search for the remains,  I think there has been and still are enough people looking for the missing bodies with the "most sensitive ground penetrating equpment".  They don't need me.  Besides,  I am not convince there are remains of the missing two to find.

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 12, 2006, 07:50:40 PM
The issue seems to be that Bear is saying that because two bodies have not been found that there is a possibility of survivors. However, as a matter of law, the absence of a body does not necessarily preclude a murder conviction. Thus, the absence of remains in this case may still mean that everyone died that night or very soon thereafter.

And, David's point is well taken - no one has ever come forward and said they were one of the 4 grand dukes who were shot at the Fortress of Peter and Paul even though no remains of these gentlemen has ever been found. And, two of these grand dukes have living descendants today - and no one is saying that they are the offspring of one of the four who was heretofore unknown to us.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Bev on June 12, 2006, 08:35:14 PM
In other words, absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.  In a court of law, you present the "best evidence".  It would seem that in this case, you have eye-witness testimony, an established motive, means and opportunity.  You also have physical evidence that supports the claim that all members of the family were shot.  I believe the case could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 12, 2006, 09:31:29 PM
Yes, people have been convicted of murder when no body was ever found.

Also no one ever claimed to be GD Michael the Tsar's brother, his body was never found, and he was next in line for the throne!
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: J_Kendrick on June 12, 2006, 10:30:10 PM
Quote
In other words, absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.  In a court of law, you present the "best evidence".  It would seem that in this case, you have eye-witness testimony, an established motive, means and opportunity.  You also have physical evidence that supports the claim that all members of the family were shot.  I believe the case could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.

You do have physical evidence that five of the seven Romanovs were shot at Ipatiev.  You do have physical evidence that four of the family's retainers were also shot at Ipatiev... but ...

You do not have any physical evidence at all that Alexei and his missing sister were killed at Ipatiev.

Washington has just required that the physical remains must be obtained and the DNA identification tests must be completed in order to prove that the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawri has been killed in Iraq.  The same will be necessary if that day ever comes for the positive identification of Osama Bin Laden.  

The case of the missing Romanovs is no different. The very same thing must also be required in order to confirm the suspected murders of those two missing members of the Russian Imperial family at Ipatiev.

The fact of the matter is, without that discovery of those two missing sets of mortal remains and without a postive DNA identification of those same missing mortal remains, you do *not* have any physical evidence at all to support your conjecture that Alexei and his sister had also been killed at Ipatiev.

This one fact alone is the only reason at all why Peter Sarandinaki's S.E.A.R.CH Foundation (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) now exists.  If there had been any actual physical proof at all of the two missing Romanov's deaths at Ipatiev then the formation of S.E.A.R.CH and the ongoing effort to find and rcover those very same missing remains would never have been necessary.

Here is the one piece of evidence which cannot be refuted:

"If the remains are those of the Romanovs then the STR and sex test data indicate that one of the princesses and the Tsarevitch Alexei were missing from the grave. This would support some historical accounts which would indicate that two bodies were either burned or buried separately. Alternatively, two individuals may have survived the massacre."

From the "Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis" by Peter Gill, Pavel L. Ivanov, et al.  NATURE GENETICS, page 131, Volume 6, February 1994.

JK
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: JonC on June 13, 2006, 01:03:14 AM
Quote
Quote
In other words, absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.  In a court of law, you present the "best evidence".  It would seem that in this case, you have eye-witness testimony, an established motive, means and opportunity.  You also have physical evidence that supports the claim that all members of the family were shot.  I believe the case could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.

You do have physical evidence that five of the seven Romanovs were shot at Ipatiev.  You do have physical evidence that four of the family's retainers were also shot at Ipatiev... but ...

You do not have any physical evidence at all that Alexei and his missing sister were killed at Ipatiev.

Washington has just required that the physical remains must be obtained and the DNA identification tests must be completed in order to prove that the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawri has been killed in Iraq.  The same will be necessary if that day ever comes for the positive identification of Osama Bin Laden.  

The case of the missing Romanovs is no different. The very same thing must also be required in order to confirm the suspected murders of those two missing members of the Russian Imperial family at Ipatiev.

The fact of the matter is, without that discovery of those two missing sets of mortal remains and without a postive DNA identification of those same missing mortal remains, you do *not* have any physical evidence at all to support your conjecture that Alexei and his sister had also been killed at Ipatiev.

This one fact alone is the only reason at all why Peter Sarandinaki's S.E.A.R.CH Foundation (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) now exists.  If there had been any actual physical proof at all of the two missing Romanov's deaths at Ipatiev then the formation of S.E.A.R.CH and the ongoing effort to find and rcover those very same missing remains would never have been necessary.

Here is the one piece of evidence which cannot be refuted:

"If the remains are those of the Romanovs then the STR and sex test data indicate that one of the princesses and the Tsarevitch Alexei were missing from the grave. This would support some historical accounts which would indicate that two bodies were either burned or buried separately. Alternatively, two individuals may have survived the massacre."

From the "Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis" by Peter Gill, Pavel L. Ivanov, et al.  NATURE GENETICS, page 131, Volume 6, February 1994.

JK


Hi Mr. Kendrick, thanks for your post, it was refreshing to read such sound logic from someone else. Besides Bear there are on this forum members who do seem to have clarity of vision and reasoning to come up with such a simple conclusion, i.e. no bodies therefor no conclusive evidence of death! Now, how hard is that?

For all those others there is still hope that one day you too will admit the same conclusion. I believe that will happen when, finally, the two missing will be found.

Now, Mr. Kendrick, tell Mr. Sarandinaki I have some clues for him and his SEARCH team to pursue. JonC.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Bev on June 13, 2006, 09:51:26 AM
The best evidence in this case is circumstantial and eyewitness.  In the first case, they found intimate objects known to have been on the persons' bodies:  the contents of the son's pocket, items customarily carried by him, the belt buckle worn by the father, rings and other jewelry, and most importantly, siix missing women with six different corset busks.  (And this is only a minute listing of physical evidence.)  As to eyewitness testimony, there are the statements of the person who arranged the murder, the statements of those who participated in the murder, and the statements of those who helped arrange the disposal of the bodies.  The primary in this case, Yorovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it.  When that method was not satisfactory, they buried the two partially consumed bodies, put out the fire, put a layer of clay over it and then covered it with soil.  Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.  The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.

Now, were two people missing from the mass grave?  Of course, but that means only that two people were not in that grave, and it means nothing else.  It also is the best evidence that supports Yurovsky's statement and the statements of others.  

It would seem to me that combined with the physical and circumstantial evidence and the eyewitness testimony, that the reasonable conclusion is that all prisoners in that house perished that night.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2006, 12:31:43 PM
Quote
Yes, people have been convicted of murder when no body was ever found.

Also no one ever claimed to be GD Michael the Tsar's brother, his body was never found, and he was next in line for the throne!

If a person had claimed to be the uncrown Tsar Michael II,  he would have had to have passed his meeting with his wife,  whom I believe was one of the many who escaped Russia.

Let me dig out MICHAEL AND NATASHA by the Crawfords:

p. 381 -
>>It took many weeks for Natasha to travel from Russia to England.<<

p. 395-
>>Natasha, the "uncrown Empress" ....died....January 23, 1952...."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2006, 12:45:28 PM
Quote

...[in part]...

And, David's point is well taken - no one has ever come forward and said they were one of the 4 grand dukes who were shot at the Fortress of Peter and Paul even though no remains of these gentlemen has ever been found. And, two of these grand dukes have living descendants today - and no one is saying that they are the offspring of one of the four who was heretofore unknown to us.

I do not know if anyone has ever claimed to have been one of the 4 grand dukes in our out of Russia.  It appears those posting here believe there were no claimants.

I'll have to dig out the information on the 4 grand dukes, at the moment I do not recall anything about them such as ages etc. so I really can't comment more at this time.  

Evidently, if no one had made any claims, there were reasons which proved this to be too difficult a task such as being married as was the uncrown Tsar Michael II.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2006, 12:52:18 PM
Quote
Quote
In other words, absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.  In a court of law, you present the "best evidence".  It would seem that in this case, you have eye-witness testimony, an established motive, means and opportunity.  You also have physical evidence that supports the claim that all members of the family were shot.  I believe the case could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.

You do have physical evidence that five of the seven Romanovs were shot at Ipatiev.  You do have physical evidence that four of the family's retainers were also shot at Ipatiev... but ...

You do not have any physical evidence at all that Alexei and his missing sister were killed at Ipatiev.

Washington has just required that the physical remains must be obtained and the DNA identification tests must be completed in order to prove that the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawri has been killed in Iraq.  The same will be necessary if that day ever comes for the positive identification of Osama Bin Laden.  

The case of the missing Romanovs is no different. The very same thing must also be required in order to confirm the suspected murders of those two missing members of the Russian Imperial family at Ipatiev.

The fact of the matter is, without that discovery of those two missing sets of mortal remains and without a postive DNA identification of those same missing mortal remains, you do *not* have any physical evidence at all to support your conjecture that Alexei and his sister had also been killed at Ipatiev.

This one fact alone is the only reason at all why Peter Sarandinaki's S.E.A.R.CH Foundation (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) now exists.  If there had been any actual physical proof at all of the two missing Romanov's deaths at Ipatiev then the formation of S.E.A.R.CH and the ongoing effort to find and rcover those very same missing remains would never have been necessary.

Here is the one piece of evidence which cannot be refuted:

"If the remains are those of the Romanovs then the STR and sex test data indicate that one of the princesses and the Tsarevitch Alexei were missing from the grave. This would support some historical accounts which would indicate that two bodies were either burned or buried separately. Alternatively, two individuals may have survived the massacre."

From the "Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis" by Peter Gill, Pavel L. Ivanov, et al.  NATURE GENETICS, page 131, Volume 6, February 1994.

JK

A voice I haven't heard in sometime.  You should post more often JK :)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 13, 2006, 12:52:38 PM
Not only have met and been recognised by his wife Natasha, Countess Brassova but also recognised by his son, his mother and two sisters. The appearance of an adult male could not have changed enough over a few years time for an imposter to have assumed Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich's identity. The only time that I can think of in Russian history when an imposter has assumed the identity of a deceased adult Romanov was when Pugachev claimed to be Emperor Peter III.

David
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2006, 01:14:31 PM
Quote
The best evidence in this case is circumstantial and eyewitness.  In the first case, they found intimate objects known to have been on the persons' bodies:  the contents of the son's pocket, items customarily carried by him, the belt buckle worn by the father, rings and other jewelry, and most importantly, siix missing women with six different corset busks.  (And this is only a minute listing of physical evidence.)  As to eyewitness testimony, there are the statements of the person who arranged the murder, the statements of those who participated in the murder, and the statements of those who helped arrange the disposal of the bodies.  The primary in this case, Yorovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it.  When that method was not satisfactory, they buried the two partially consumed bodies, put out the fire, put a layer of clay over it and then covered it with soil.  Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.  The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.

Now, were two people missing from the mass grave?  Of course, but that means only that two people were not in that grave, and it means nothing else.  It also is the best evidence that supports Yurovsky's statement and the statements of others.  

It would seem to me that combined with the physical and circumstantial evidence and the eyewitness testimony, that the reasonable conclusion is that all prisoners in that house perished that night.

Bev:
Quote
The best evidence in this case is circumstantial and eyewitness.
Bear:  Most lawyers who deal in criminal cases will agree that they'd rather have "circumstantil" evidence than eyewitneses.

Finding a pile of burnt clothes etc. does not indicate who was executed and who was not.

Bev:
Quote
Yorovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it
Bear:  Yurovsky gives us several different accounts about who was buried in a grave "near" the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

One account tells us that "two bodies" were burned and then buried.

Another account tell us that "one single body" was burned and buried.

Then there is the confusion as to the identity of the female who was burned and buried with Alexei.  First he thought it was Alexandra, then he corrected this by saying it was Demidova, but,  we know it was neither.  One of the grand duchesses is missing from the mass grave.

Bev:
Quote
Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.
Bear:  There were traces of bonfires but we have no idea if they were to burn a body/bodies or to keep warm,  to roast a chicken, or,  in need of fire which lit the night so they could see.

Bev:
Quote
The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.
Bear:  Since Yurovsky was accurate with the mass grave and supposedly left a note which tells the general location of the mass grave, then why is it that we can't find the buriel place of two  "near" the mass grave?  Either "near" isn't  "near" or  they were not buried in the meadow or near the meadow....
OR,  there is the slight possibility the two who are missing may have survived a hour, two hours,  two days, two weeks, a year...... For all we know they may have been buried in the woods near Perm.  [Just thought I toss that in since I know how much most of you like me to mention Perm. ]

AGRBear


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 01:23:12 PM
Quote
Not only have met and been recognised by his wife Natasha, Countess Brassova but also recognised by his son, his mother and two sisters.

Oh, but you know he and his supporters would just say they were 'lying to get his money'  ::)

Quote
The appearance of an adult male could not have changed enough over a few years time for an imposter to have assumed Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich's identity. The only time that I can think of in Russian history when an imposter has assumed the identity of a deceased adult Romanov was when Pugachev claimed to be Emperor Peter III.

David

Well, maybe Natasha would have fallen in love with the imposter and claimed him so she could keep him, like in "Somersby" ;)
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Bev on June 13, 2006, 02:02:39 PM
Your first statement, that "lawyers prefer circumstantial...evidence" is a strawman argument.  It doesn't matter in the least what kind of evidence is preferred, the evidence is simply the evidence, whether it be empirical, anecdotal, circumstantial or eyewitness.  Preference for any or all, is a matter of personal judgement.

You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.

The third statement that Yurovsky gave different statements of exactly whose bodies were in the pit, is correct, however, he never wavered in stating that there were nine bodies in the pit.  He himself stated that they attempted to dispose of two bodies by cremation and these bodies were buried separately from the others.  

Your fourth statement again corroborates Yurovsky's account.  He stated that bonfires were made, and there is evidence of the bonfires.

Your last statement is another strawman argument.  As I have said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  The fact that the grave hasn't been found means only that the grave hasn't been found.  It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, and there is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that it does exist.  Taken as a whole, anecdotal, empirical, eyewitness and circumstantial, the evidence supports the claim, that all members of the family were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

Is there a "slight possibility" that some victims survived?  No.  The overwhelming evidence points us in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: J_Kendrick on June 13, 2006, 04:42:40 PM
Quote
Quote
Yurovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it
Bear:  Yurovsky gives us several different accounts about who was buried in a grave "near" the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

One account tells us that "two bodies" were burned and then buried.

Another account tell us that "one single body" was burned and buried.

Then there is the confusion as to the identity of the female who was burned and buried with Alexei.  First he thought it was Alexandra, then he corrected this by saying it was Demidova, but,  we know it was neither.  One of the grand duchesses is missing from the mass grave.

Bev:
Quote
Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.
Bear:  There were traces of bonfires but we have no idea if they were to burn a body/bodies or to keep warm,  to roast a chicken, or,  in need of fire which lit the night so they could see.

Bev:
Quote
The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.
Bear:  Since Yurovsky was accurate with the mass grave and supposedly left a note which tells the general location of the mass grave, then why is it that we can't find the buriel place of two  "near" the mass grave?  Either "near" isn't  "near" or  they were not buried in the meadow or near the meadow....
OR,  there is the slight possibility the two who are missing may have survived a hour, two hours,  two days, two weeks, a year...... For all we know they may have been buried in the woods near Perm.  [Just thought I toss that in since I know how much most of you like me to mention Perm. ]

AGRBear



Hi Bear!

All of the most serious inconsistences in those numerous tellings of the Romanov story have always revolved around the fate of those two missing bodies... most notably, the very obvious difference in the number of missing bodies that were reported in the 1920 "Yurovsky Note" (two), in Yurovsky's 1922 memoir (one), and in Peter Ermakov's claims that there were no missing bodies... that they had *all* been burnt to ash.

On this, we can all agree:  The truth never changes, so a person who is telling the truth should consistently tell the same story time after time.

But... If the telling of a single story keeps changing in all of its most important details...
 
If the people who are telling the story never manage to tell the details of that same story the same way twice, then that's a very good sign that the people who are telling the story are not telling the truth... because their memories of the lies that they had told the first time can never be accurate on those second and subsequent times that they attempt to tell the same story.

If Yurovsky and Ermakov had actually been telling the truth about those two missing bodies, then they would consistently have told the same story... but, the fact is, they did not.

You have mentioned that your opponents don't react well to your raising the issue of Perm... Well... They'll love this one... :D

The question of survivors has always been discussed in terms of the two missing teenage Romanovs' possible survival having occured by accident...

But...

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 13, 2006, 06:42:53 PM
Quote

......

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK



It's certainly a thought when you consider that one of the first laws promulgated by Lenin's regime was that minors were no longer to be executed for any crimes. And we know that the Ekaterinburg Soviet -- a particularly unmerciful bunch -- showed mercy to Leonid Sednev, whose execution probably wouldn't have bothered anyone other than his family overly much.  So of the three minors in the household, one is released, and two are missing -- it's worth a ponder, anyway.

~Penny, adding some spice to the pot...
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 07:02:49 PM
In Sophie B.'s book, "Left Behind", she describes the sad story of two boys, ages 14 and 17 (just like AN and Alexei) who were tortured and killed because they wouldn't reveal the location of their merchant class parents, who had fled while they were in school.

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/X.html

Most of the foreigners, and all the townspeople who could do so, managed to leave Tyumen by stealth, generally at night. Their houses and belongings were immediately confiscated, and Schebaldin promulgated a new decree, threatening to shoot anyone who was caught leaving the town. Pickets were placed at every exit. Among the people who fled were the brothers Kolokolnikoff, immensely rich merchants who had built and endowed a splendid commercial school and had always spent great sums on the charities of the town. The whole family left, except two young boys of seventeen and fourteen, the sons of one of the brothers, who were still at school. On them Schebaldin vented his rage at having lost his wealthiest prey. When these poor boys refused to disclose their parents' whereabouts, they were imprisoned, and when they still disclaimed any knowledge on cross-examination, Schebaldin had them shot in cold blood, having previously submitted them to the most inhuman treatment. Their bodies were thrown down a deep well, where they were found after the Bolsheviks' retreat.


If there was an official ban on executions of minors, it had yet to reach the outlying areas of the Urals and Siberia! Also what did 'minor' mean then? Under 21? Marie was 19. 18 didn't become the legal age until the 1970's, and in Imperial Russia, it may have been 17 or even 16 since this is the age people were allowed to attend adult parties and functions. Alexei, being the heir to the throne, would have been an exception. The dolphan was a small child.


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: ChatNoir on June 13, 2006, 07:23:57 PM
Quote
You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

The Grand Duchesses wore double sets of corsets with jewels in between them. Thus the 6 corsets actually came from 3 women.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 07:27:43 PM
Quote
Quote
You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

The Grand Duchesses wore double sets of corsets with jewels in between them. Thus the 6 corsets actually came from 3 women.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I always read they had the jewels sewn into the bodice linings. ChatNoir, have you ever worn a corset? My grandma had one, and they are very heavy and bulky, and were even more so in those days. NOBODY could have managed to wear double corsets! One would have to have been much larger than the other, and the person would look like a tank and not be able to walk or breathe very well! You must be thinking of the bodices beneath them?

And, if there were only 3 corsets, where were the other 3? We only have one missing female body! It doesn't add up. Bev's post does.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 07:30:53 PM
Oh and FYI to all who missed it, this was posted a few days ago in the 'final frontier' thread:

Quote
Ok,
The speculation ends here and now. We've had more than enough of the "what ifs" etc ad nauseum.
To quote Bill Maher "New Rule":
Anna Anderson/Manahan is dead and cremated. The DNA testing has shown 100% she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna. Period.

so...Unless and until there is genuine evidence, supported with facts, scientific documentation etc. This discussion is closed. Period. You may only post on the subject that AA "was" AN so long as citations to supporting evidence are accompanying.

The discussion of whether AA was FS may continue. But, until there is real evidence to refute the DNA testing, Anna Anderson Manahan was not GD Anastasia. Two years and far too many postings are enough. This discussion "like Moose on wall, is like a train without wheels...Very soon getting noplace" (Apologies to Neil Simon and one of my favorite movies "Murder by Death")

Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Bev on June 13, 2006, 09:28:56 PM
I believe that the testimony is that the jewels were sewn up in double brassieres, not double corsets.  I wouldn't doubt that linings were added to the corsets and more jewels added, but as Annie pointed out, double corsets would be too cumbersome.  The fact that they found six sets of corset closures, would fit this previous known testimony.

Strictly in the realm of speculation, the fact that Yurovsky let Leonid Sednev go free, would speak to his ambivilence and consciousness of guilt about committing this crime.  In his first report, he claims 12 people were shot, notably "a cook, another cook", which makes me wonder if in deciding to kill the family, it was decided not to leave any witnesses.  If that was the case, Yurovsky could always claim that either report was in error.  In a close reading of his reports, he seemed to always leave several outs for himself with every single action.

Yurovsky seemed to understand that the power struggle between area soviets and the Moscow soviet would result in one or the other consolidating power - he wasn't about to favour one side or the other, and walked a fine line between both.  Every statement he made seemed to have been made with this in mind.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Tania+ on June 13, 2006, 10:19:48 PM
I'm sorry, but i'm stumped. I looked up the word 'dolphan' which was in the posting on this thread, and could not come up with any defination. What the heck is a dolphan ? Thanks in advance.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 10:54:13 PM
Sorry, I spelled it wrong, I'm tired, I knew it was something like 'dolphin' but got the letters wrong. He was the son of Marie Antionette and Louis XVI of France, taken prisoner at age 4, his parents executed, and allegedly died in captivity at age 10. He, like AN, had a lot of claimants pretending to be him, but, like with AN, they were all frauds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: J_Kendrick on June 14, 2006, 02:14:20 AM
Quote
Quote

......

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK



It's certainly a thought when you consider that one of the first laws promulgated by Lenin's regime was that minors were no longer to be executed for any crimes. And we know that the Ekaterinburg Soviet -- a particularly unmerciful bunch -- showed mercy to Leonid Sednev, whose execution probably wouldn't have bothered anyone other than his family overly much.  So of the three minors in the household, one is released, and two are missing -- it's worth a ponder, anyway.

~Penny, adding some spice to the pot...

Hi Penny

What about adding a little more heat to that pot.. something with some bite.. like a nice hot bit of jalapeño? :-)

Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side.. especially when the survival of that one most historically important of those same three minors is.. potentially.. political dynamite.

The identity of the missing daughter is still in some question... but there is no question at all about the identity of the other of those two missing Romanovs.  

That one missing Romanov whose identity is not in question is also the same missing Romanov who, as the sole Sovereign Heir, had stood to inherit everything of value that the warring parties on both sides of the revolution had wanted... in particular, the political power to rule Russia.. which as a minor, could be used to great advantage by anyone acting as a regent.

Could you ever dare to imagine that those same Cheka Guards might well have concocted a cover story of burned and buried missing bodies... in order to cover the deliberately planned survival of an heir who might have been seen as being far more valuable to both sides being alive rather than dead?  ...  A Sovereign heir who, because of his inheritance, could be seen as being far more valuable to his captors if he were safely hidden away, kept as a political pawn to be used by a manipulating regent if the need should ever arise in the future?

... and because of his health concerns, they might also consider keeping one of his four sisters alive to keep a safe watch over him, if the need should ever become necessary.  The other nine captives would then be seen as expendable and their deaths would be used as a cold-hearted smokescreen in order to mask the truth of the Cheka Guards' deception.  

Hypothetically, of course.

So....  Is that enough spice for the pot? ;-)

JK
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 14, 2006, 02:45:00 AM
Quote

Hi Penny

What about adding a little more heat to that pot.. something with some bite.. like a nice hot bit of jalapeño? :-)

Mmmmmm....  jalapeño.....  :D

Quote
Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side..


Perhaps.  But whatever any other group of Bolsheviks might or might not have done, we do know that this particular bunch showed Sednev mercy, and spared him.

Quote
The identity of the missing daughter is still in some question...

For me, it isn't.  I do not argue with Bill Maples's conclusion that Maria was present in the Koptiyaki grave, and Anastasia was missing from it.  

I suppose I should also point out that I still believe (thus far) that Alexei and Anastasia were present in the cellar that night -- I'm willing to discuss this hypothetical situation for the sake of a conversation, but I haven't heard anything yet to make me disbelieve the events as Greg and I unfolded them in FOTR.  I merely found it interesting -- though most likely coincidental -- that Lenin forbade the execution of minors, that the Ekaterinburg Soviet spared a minor, and that the only two other minors in the household are missing and unaccounted for.

Quote
but there is no question at all about the identity of the other of those two missing Romanovs.

Nope, no question there.  Alexei is missing as well as his sister.

However, I just don't know of any evidence that would support the rest of your hypothesis.  At this point I'm sure that the Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks intended to kill all of the Romanovs and their servants -- Sednev's being spared was a fluke -- and any survival was accidental.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 10:01:35 AM
Quote
Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side..

Yes, and since it turns out that, as I mentioned in my post on the last page, that minors were still being executed. So either Lenin's rule only went for the big cities where he was in control and the rest still did as they pleased, or that it was ignored.

Quote
especially when the survival of that one most historically important of those same three minors is.. potentially.. political dynamite.

That too. We also don't even know what age was officially considered 'minor' then and there.



Quote
That one missing Romanov whose identity is not in question is also the same missing Romanov who, as the sole Sovereign Heir, had stood to inherit everything of value that the warring parties on both sides of the revolution had wanted... in particular, the political power to rule Russia.. which as a minor, could be used to great advantage by anyone acting as a regent.

Could you ever dare to imagine that those same Cheka Guards might well have concocted a cover story of burned and buried missing bodies... in order to cover the deliberately planned survival of an heir who might have been seen as being far more valuable to both sides being alive rather than dead?  ...  A Sovereign heir who, because of his inheritance, could be seen as being far more valuable to his captors if he were safely hidden away, kept as a political pawn to be used by a manipulating regent if the need should ever arise in the future?

... and because of his health concerns, they might also consider keeping one of his four sisters alive to keep a safe watch over him, if the need should ever become necessary.  The other nine captives would then be seen as expendable and their deaths would be used as a cold-hearted smokescreen in order to mask the truth of the Cheka Guards' deception.  

Hypothetically, of course.

So....  Is that enough spice for the pot? ;-)

JK

Wow, there sure is a lot of unsubstantiated speculation and wild guessing going on here. Mind if I join in? I don't have any sources either, but since you're just going on hypothetical situtations that doesn't matter, right?
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 14, 2006, 10:41:07 AM
Quote
Oh and FYI to all who missed it, this was posted a few days ago in the 'final frontier' thread:

Quote
Ok,
The speculation ends here and now. We've had more than enough of the "what ifs" etc ad nauseum.
To quote Bill Maher "New Rule":
Anna Anderson/Manahan is dead and cremated. The DNA testing has shown 100% she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna. Period.

so...Unless and until there is genuine evidence, supported with facts, scientific documentation etc. This discussion is closed. Period. You may only post on the subject that AA "was" AN so long as citations to supporting evidence are accompanying.

The discussion of whether AA was FS may continue. But, until there is real evidence to refute the DNA testing, Anna Anderson Manahan was not GD Anastasia. Two years and far too many postings are enough. This discussion "like Moose on wall, is like a train without wheels...Very soon getting noplace" (Apologies to Neil Simon and one of my favorite movies "Murder by Death")


If it's true that discussion of Anna Anderson is banned on this site, then anyone wanting to discuss the case further can find a good home on our forum here: http://www.kingandwilson.com

~Penny
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 11:43:24 AM
The discussion of AA and her story is not banned, only discussion of her possibly being AN, because she wasn't.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 14, 2006, 12:22:32 PM
Then allow me to re-phrase:

If anyone would like to discuss any aspect of the Anna Anderson case -- including the possibility that she was Anastasia -- then you will be welcome on the forums at kingandwilson.com, where we also talk about many other historical and book-related topics in an atmosphere of mutual respect and acceptance.

~Penny
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 14, 2006, 05:20:32 PM
Quote
Then allow me to re-phrase:

If anyone would like to discuss any aspect of the Anna Anderson case -- including the possibility that she was Anastasia -- then you will be welcome on the forums at kingandwilson.com, where we also talk about many other historical and book-related topics in an atmosphere of mutual respect and acceptance.

~Penny

Dear Penny,

Thank you very much for offering an Internet refuge to those persons that cannot consign the Anna Anderson fraud story to the dust bin of history. You do this forum a great service by allowing them a space to continue their very gullible and often disturbingly obsessive discussions on this matter. This forum will rise in credibility when discussions about this tired and discredited identity fraud scheme have ceased permanently. Again, thank you for your great kindness.

David
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 14, 2006, 06:36:01 PM
Since this thread is about survivors, David,  I'm afraid it shall continue dispite your dislike for this discussion and it will continue until FA bans the discussion about survivors which I assume will not occur until the graves of the two missing gave been found and the bones identified as being Alexei and one of the grand duchesses.

And, yes, thankyou Penny for the new forum.

Also, it's good to see you have returned to this forum.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: AGRBear on June 14, 2006, 07:01:07 PM
Quote

Hi Bear!

All of the most serious inconsistences in those numerous tellings of the Romanov story have always revolved around the fate of those two missing bodies... most notably, the very obvious difference in the number of missing bodies that were reported in the 1920 "Yurovsky Note" (two), in Yurovsky's 1922 memoir (one), and in Peter Ermakov's claims that there were no missing bodies... that they had *all* been burnt to ash.

On this, we can all agree:  The truth never changes, so a person who is telling the truth should consistently tell the same story time after time.

But... If the telling of a single story keeps changing in all of its most important details...
 
If the people who are telling the story never manage to tell the details of that same story the same way twice, then that's a very good sign that the people who are telling the story are not telling the truth... because their memories of the lies that they had told the first time can never be accurate on those second and subsequent times that they attempt to tell the same story.

If Yurovsky and Ermakov had actually been telling the truth about those two missing bodies, then they would consistently have told the same story... but, the fact is, they did not.

You have mentioned that your opponents don't react well to your raising the issue of Perm... Well... They'll love this one... :D

The question of survivors has always been discussed in terms of the two missing teenage Romanovs' possible survival having occured by accident...

But...

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?

Bear: Yes 

Quote
Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Bear: Yes

Quote
Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Bear: Yes

Quote
Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK

Bear:  I don't think I need to add anything to this JK.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 22, 2006, 11:22:03 PM
Well, I've certainly learned a lot about the real Anastasia and her life and times on this site.  I agree with the person who proposes that without bodies and with no credible surviving eyewitnesses, there may have been some possibility of the two youngest children surviving the execution even if that survival was not long term.  Someone was certainly hard at work spreading stories of survival, and Anastasia's name came up in these rumors the most often, it seems, for whatever reason.  I think we can all agree that to provide closure it would be wonderful if what happened to these two children could be proven once and for all.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Lordtranwell on June 24, 2006, 12:47:05 PM
Hello to everyone and thank you for allowing me to read your ideas.  I hope you find mine thought provoking.

First let me say the reason there is so much divergence of opinion is because there has been two sustained attempts to cover up:  the Bolsheviks didn't want to be blamed without provocation and the British Foreign Office and SIS didn't want their part known.

Justification:  well let's start with the remains which were unearthed near Koptiaki.   There are strong reasons for caution here.  DNA degrades rapidly when bodies are interned in peaty earth.  The full DNA data has not been made available for scrutiny either.  Equally, the integrity of the site was never secured and there are accounts of skulls being removed and replaced at a later date - see Radzinsky.  Let us not forget that neither the Orthodox Church nor the extant members of the Romanov clan acknowledge the remains to be those of the Imperial family.   So, I would argue that the evidence is inconclusive.  Moreover, the discovery of the remains was supposed to have folowed Yurovsky's protocol which was not committed to paper for two years and then only under oppressive conditions.

Now another twist:  Read Occleshaw 'Armour Against Fate' and 'The Romanov Conspiracies'.  Both argue a plausible case for at least one escape and the high probability that the Sokolov version of events was not  entirely correct.  He discounted good evidence that some members were seen in Perm for many months after the alleged massacre.  Also he points out the contradictory nature of accounts which leave us wondering just what really did happen.

Now this is the interesting bit:  The British Consul at the time was Sir Thomas Preston and his widow reported that he was called to the house to witness deaths but he told his wife that two bodies were not there - viz Anastasia and Tatiana.   I have two comments here : first I think Preston was there to identify a British agent ( Captain C.S. Digby- Jones) who had participated in a rescue attempt and had been shot along with a White Officer  Captain Pablenco.  It was this second rescue attempt which precipitated the murder of some members of the Imperial household - maybe even the family themselves.

Prior to this there was another rescue attempt stage managed by Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen which spirited away at least Tatiana.  She is buried in Lydd in Kent.  He was assisted by Flying Officer Poole whose father was on the China station - a viable escape route.

I sincerely hope this does not offend any sensitivities - it is offered for discussion not as proven fact.

All the best

Tranwell.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 25, 2006, 01:19:25 PM
My suggestion for those who have heard the stories in favor of Anna Anderson being Anastasia, and are not familiar with all the other stories--if they come on this forum after these discussions have been bumped down and don't see them, merely refer them to the discussions containing facts about the life of Anastasia relating how Anna Anderson does not conform to those facts.  There's no need to flame a new poster who may be sincere--simply refer them to those discussions and ask if they have questions after reading those discussions.  I did appreciate becoming acquainted with facts I did not previously know.
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Jarian on August 19, 2006, 01:29:45 PM
Quote
...[in part]....
The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/bones5.jpg)

......

AGRBear

Two bodies are missing.

The missing bodies are GD Anastasia [or possibly Maria] and Alexei.

The area has been dug up and these two have NOT  been found near the mass grave as testified by Yurovskys....

You can't test bodies that are missing for DNA.

AGRBear
well i think that tatiana could be the missing one beacuse if you go to livadia.org then go to links then go to who is missing and read every page i think you would point out maria and tatiana
Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Moss on September 08, 2006, 08:46:32 AM

Hello Everyone
I am a screenwriter researching for a screenplay about the (alleged?) rescue of Grand Duchess Tatiana, from the Ekaterinburg in 1918.
This website came up in a search - finaly showing what I was after - Captain Digby-Jones - in Tranwell's (thankfuly intelligent) posting on page 14.

I could find no other mention of this rescue attempt anywhere else on the site, but it seems to me to be a crucial factor in any discussion regarding possible survivors.
Perhaps members might find an account of it in the book ‘Puppet Masters: The Secret History of Intelligence (Weidenfeld & Nicolson 2004) by John Hughes-Wilson as interesting as I did.
Mick


Title: Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
Post by: Jarian on September 23, 2006, 06:29:29 PM
ok but then i think now tatiana is in there and anastasia is not