Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: RealAnastasia on June 12, 2005, 07:58:26 PM

Title: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 12, 2005, 07:58:26 PM
Hi, Guys:

               I know I'll disturb many people starting a new thread about AA. But I was always interested in her story, and it's the first forum about the NAOTMAA family and their pretenders I'm a member.

               I would want to know something more about AA supporters, for I think Blair Lovell's books is not the more accurate source to go see, and since I have this book, it's the only way to me to know a little about them. My personal truble with JBL is that for him, all AA supporters wanted to use her and were not sincere. The only one it's OK for him is Gleb Botkin.

               But I would like, it's possible, to know a little more about Harriet Rathlef, Doctor Rudnev,Clara  Peuthert, Zinaide Tolstaia, Captain Schwabe , Baron Von Kleist and his wife, Inspector Grünberg, Tatiana Botkina-Melnik, Xenia Leeds, Annie Burr Jennings, Mrs. Adele Heydebrand, Ambassador Zahle, the Madsacks, the Baroness Miltitz, Prince Frederick von Saxe-Althenburg, Mrs. Thomasius, Baron and Baroness Gienanth, Alexis Milukov, and (of course!) Jack Manahan...

               I would like to discuss these ones if someone here knows a little more info about them...Did you think all of them were AA believers? Did you think they use her as Blair Lovell claims they did? ???  Did you think they were sometimes mean to Anna as Blair Lovell states they were?

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:18:33 AM
This is very interesting and since Forum Admin. wants us to take this away from the DNA papers to a new thread,  I am:

Quote
Here at 12:47 a m June17, 2005, I find myself seeing these posts for the first time. I have not finished reading them all.

That said, I should point out what some of my subsequent investigation has disclosed that might be of interest.

The "Polish" family from which Karl Maucher is purported (but not scientifically proved) to descend was actually of Frisian origin, Mennonites, who settled in and drained the lowlands of that area of Poland. These were Kashuban ((Kaszubski) who spoke a dialect of Old Dutch. So, Polish data bases (unless from descendents of those same settlors) would not be any more applicable than other Caucasians.

That family was extensively researched in a German Eugenics study made in the '40s re: Inherited Criminality (none found).


I will try to add more later this day


Richard is the husband of Marina Botkin, who is the granddaughter of Dr. Botkin....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:19:16 AM
Quote
Having read more, but with my time limited by requirements for Marina's care, I will have to post information in installments.

As to the Nature Genetics editorial, it was the subject of an extensive discussion in the offices with the publisher, in view of its discrepancies, false statements and potential for liability particularly with respect to Marina.

It was written by the person who had been brought to Charlottesville as an expert witness in the attempt to block Gill et al from access to the tissue.

We gathered they (at N.G.) were shocked by the actual facts, few, if any the writer had bothered to check before rushing to condemn those he felt "reject" wonderful science.

I guess he had never read Karl Popper.

I will try to give example of these frustrations we have encountered. Bear with me.

R. Richard Schweitzer
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:20:38 AM
Quote
Having a few minutes mor, let me give some backgroundon part of the N.G. edoiorial:

The phrase that Marina "claimed to be" the descendent of Dr. Eugene Botkin was a repeat of an earlier error made by "The Charlottesville Progress."

What was not checked out was that there was a scientific determination of the relation of Marina to Dr. Eugene Botkin (or at least to his putative remains. Surprised? That's more than Maucher has to Gertrude!

Our first contact with Dr. Peter Gill was through an intermediary, Mr. Julian Nott, who was considering preparing a documentary on the ongoing determination (via mtDNA) of the Ekaterineburg remains by the FSS at Aldermaston. Marina agreed to provide blood tissue from herself and her maternal half-sister ( because her then surviving brother did not wish to participate). It was Marina's tissue which was used by Dr. Gill to identify the remains of Dr. Botkin.  These facts were easily available to N.G. - but in the haste to condemn us, they were not checked.  Very scientific indeed!

They also mis-labeled me as a "local" (Charlottesville)lawyer. While I had once practiced there (really- from there- in taxation and finance) from 1954 - 1958, and had been admitted to the Bar in 1952 before finishing in Law at U.Va. in 1953, I was at the times they referred to most recently engaged in international representation, and had been spending almost 50% of each year in England or Continental Europe. That too seemed a surprise to the N.G. people.

The details of how we were approached to intervene in the quest for access to the tissue samples at Martha Jefferson Hospital can be given (and are documented),
are too long for this post. However, we never sought access or "control" over access for Marina; rather, we sought to have the Court grant access by FSS which possessed materials from Prince Phillp that could be used for mtDNA comparisons. We asked for nothing for ourselves, and offerred to bear the expenses (which we ultimately did).

Contrary to the editorial, Jay Swett, the Judge, was very hostile to our application. We did not convince the Court to give US custody. Instead, on the valuable suggestion from the Hospital legal counsel, I used an arcane provision of Virginia law to secure the appointment of Edward Deets, Jr. (a law classmate) as Administrator of the Estate of Anastasia Manahan, Dec'd. As such, he was entitled to direct the Hospital grant access to the tissue by the scientists, which he did.Peter Gill came to the U.S.and collected the samples.

As I understood at that time, the techniques for extracting mtDNA from -soft- (as opposed to the more common bone or dental) tissue were just being developed and had not been tried on long-preserved formulin-fixed materials. Dr. Gill advised us on the possibly small prospects of success, and the potential extensive costs related - we said to proceed and signed the commission with the FSS. We understand that was the very first "private" commission evr taken by FSS. They were wonderful!

At the time of the sample taking, Peter Gill urged us to try to get a parallel set of tests done by the U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) which he said had marvelous facilities and terrif personnel. That effort turned out to be much harder in going through the civilian bureaucracy here in the U.S., than the commission with the British Government. But, we wer able to bypass the hang-ups, by paying for the expenses of a sample collection by an AFIP scientist; all of which was done without publicity.

AFIP did not make any of the "comparisons " to the Hessen (Prince Phillip) or Maucher  mtDNA. They simply determined that the profile they derived from their samples matched the profiles derived by the sequencing done by Kevin Summers at FSS. We understand the AFIP technique differed from that used by FSS.

The story about the hair sample, is a fable. I personally checked it out with the dealer who sold the swatch.

My reason for refering to Sex-source of sample arises because when Peter Gill first advised us by 'phone of the results at FSS, I asked whether there was a way to ascertain that the tissue had come from a female body. He paused, realizing the issue, and said  they had not done that but would do so, and we would not need to go "outside."

Innuendo and inferences have had a large role in the various materials written about these tests, our actions, responses and subsequent work - about which more later on.

R. Richard Schweitzer
s24rrs@aol.com
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:22:07 AM
Quote
I have privately answered the young lady's query concerning my belief.

Elsewhere On this site (there is just so much random stuff) I posted the fact that may have been noted by Penny Wilson, that the S family were not Slavs (Polish Slavs) but descended from Mennonite peoples who migrated to that part of what is now Poland (south of G'Dansk), from Frisia [homeland of Menno Simons] and were know as Kashubans (Kaszubski) who spoke a peculiar dialect of Old Dutch Even to this day, a portion of the area just West of FS's homes is designated Kaszubski and there is a museum of those people at Kartuzy.

Dr. Gill did tell me of the difficulties of finding an adequate  "data base" of profiles for comparative purposes at that time. But, of course he had been led to believe FS (and Maucher) were Polish. There is also the lore of those people that the Poles could not understand them ; nor could the Germans, but Dutch traders could.

One person who did know about the FS descent was Maurice Philip Remy, probably the best informed person on this whole subject (since he had the advantage of Peter Kurth's prior work).

Also there had been an intensive study of the S family by German Eugenicists, which is part of a published study (mid 40's I think).

The point of all this exercise is that it is still believed that mtDNA descends only through the female line. Thus his grandmother would have have had to have the same mother as FS in order for his mtDNA to match FS's.

If it is ever found that the mothers differed, and were not siblings, new issues will open.

Enough for tonight

Richard Schweitzer
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:27:16 AM
Quote
Dear Mr. Schweitzer, I have just finished reading all of the related threads and before I study them closer, I want to just offer you my thanks for coming  to this forum and sharing your personal knowledge with us.  It is so valuable and so wonderful for all of us.
Best wishes,
Arleen


Quote
Dear Mr. Schweitzer,
I think many people are interested in this question:
Do you still believe that Anna Anderson Manahan was Anastasia? Do you still believe that DNA test was somehow contaminated and we can't trust it?


Quote
I have privately answered the young lady's query concerning my belief.

Elsewhere On this site (there is just so much random stuff) I posted the fact that may have been noted by Penny Wilson, that the S family were not Slavs (Polish Slavs) but descended from Mennonite peoples who migrated to that part of what is now Poland (south of G'Dansk), from Frisia [homeland of Menno Simons] and were know as Kashubans (Kaszubski) who spoke a peculiar dialect of Old Dutch Even to this day, a portion of the area just West of FS's homes is designated Kaszubski and there is a museum of those people at Kartuzy.

Dr. Gill did tell me of the difficulties of finding an adequate  "data base" of profiles for comparative purposes at that time. But, of course he had been led to believe FS (and Maucher) were Polish. There is also the lore of those people that the Poles could not understand them ; nor could the Germans, but Dutch traders could.

One person who did know about the FS descent was Maurice Philip Remy, probably the best informed person on this whole subject (since he had the advantage of Peter Kurth's prior work).

Also there had been an intensive study of the S family by German Eugenicists, which is part of a published study (mid 40's I think).

The point of all this exercise is that it is still believed that mtDNA descends only through the female line. Thus his grandmother would have have had to have the same mother as FS in order for his mtDNA to match FS's.

If it is ever found that the mothers differed, and were not siblings, new issues will open.

Enough for tonight

Richard Schweitzer
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2005, 10:29:36 AM
Quote
-Mr. Richard Schweitzer:

I am the one who posted the Nature Genetic’s article. After I posted it, I read the book “Romanovs” by ROBERT K. MASSIE in which he pointed out that Nature Genetics’ editorial had error. As you suggested, I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of your wife’s family history.    

I would be greatly appreciative if you answer the question someone asked: Did you change your mind for past 10 years? Or do you still think Ms. Anna Anderson was indeed  GD Anastasia? As far as I know, even Peter Kurth or Greg King no longer believe it, although they do not believe that she was a Polish peasant Franziska Schanzkowka.

I will respect anyone's belief, whether it is based on science or religion or pure instinct. The point of my postings was to eradicate disingenuous pseudoscience trick that is prevalent in this board to deceive scientifically lay audiences. I hope you understand it.

DaveK
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 20, 2005, 06:55:09 PM
How did DaveK get lucky enough to get private correspondence with Mr. S and the answer to the burning question and we don't?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: etonexile on June 20, 2005, 07:14:23 PM
It's who you know.... ;)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 20, 2005, 07:24:19 PM
Darn it!!!!!!!  I obviously don't know ANYONE!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: etonexile on June 20, 2005, 07:58:54 PM
Well...you know ME...and Teddy...we'll give you a jolly topping critique if you are planning to join a country club or revolutionary cell....Teddy is in charge of spelling....he is quite often correct....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 20, 2005, 11:12:50 PM
As I look at more of the conceptions that imbue people who post, I think Penny or some other writer might be able to deal with a lot of it.

I note that at least as late as October 2004 people had the idea that something could have happened to the tissue sample that Peter Gill took back in his backpack.

Well yes, something could have, and that was another reason Peter Gill wanted me to get AFIP involved. It was also a reason we had zero publicity of the type the Hospital set up for the first taking. The scientist simply slipped in and slipped out.

Thus the second sets had no exposure like those that went to the U.K.

However, AFIP tests produced the same profile as the work done at FSS. AFIP did no comparisons to other profiles (so far as I have ever been made aware).

One thing I wished later we had done was to obtain whatever pertinent comparisons there might be to the DNA of Nicholas II (male of course, and thus not mtDNA).Perhaps that may be done some day - like old-fashioned parental tests. Possibly of little probative value,but worth knowing.

RRS
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on June 20, 2005, 11:16:21 PM
Quote
As I look at more of the conceptions that imbue people who post, I think Penny or some other writer might be able to deal with a lot of it.

I note that at least as late as October 2004 people had the idea that something could have happened to the tissue sample that Peter Gill took back in his backpack.

Well yes, something could have, and that was another reason Peter Gill wanted me to get AFIP involved. It was also a reason we had zero publicity of the type the Hospital set up for the first taking. The scientist simply slipped in and slipped out.

Thus the second sets had no exposure like those that went to the U.K.

However, AFIP tests produced the same profile as the work done at FSS. AFIP did no comparisons to other profiles (so far as I have ever been made aware).

RRS


So what does all of this mean?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 21, 2005, 12:31:11 PM
It bothers me that there appears to be a big secret involved here and only certain people have access to information from a public poster who happens to be someone very close to the investigation.

<shrug>  I am extremely open-minded on the subject of AA/Anastasia but rather disinclined to consider it further if info is restricted to a certain group of people on the board.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: etonexile on June 21, 2005, 12:37:50 PM
It means that AA was not AN...but she was almost certainly FS....and that people like to play games.... ;)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: delle on June 21, 2005, 05:37:20 PM
I think it means that Mr.Schweitzer has been kind enough to share that information which can be shared
in a public way, and cautious, considering other ramifications, in posting other information. Seems
reasonable to me.

Delle
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 21, 2005, 08:42:06 PM
Quote
It means that AA was not AN...but she was almost certainly FS....and that people like to play games.... ;)



Please, please Etonexile...Don't simplify things like this. Read the post more carefully. Besides, Dr. Schweitzer is here to help us with the whole thing of the DNA proof, just to show us that things are not always like they seems to be. If you and other forum members are rude with him, like they were with Greg king, Penny Wilson and Peter Kurth, we'll lost him the same way we lost them.  :-/ Greg, Penny and Kurth are professional researchers...we are not. We only analyze things after reading some good books, and news about the "Ekaterinburg Case" in papers and magazines. Why do you don't want to have some historical professional help here? I'm foreign and not always able to get all new books in Romanov issues, so I know the historical news in the net, and in this excellent forum (Thank you, Bob!  ;) ) I'm REALLY dissapointed to have lost so interesting people as King, Wilson and Kurth...Now; I don't want to lost Dr. Schweitzer who is so kind to waste his time posting messages here.

  I'm surprised when I see professional historians or people who is related to the Anna Anderson's case, be mistreated like they were. I'm very sad, really...We have the honour to speak with Greg, Penny and Peter and we laugh about their research and work (hard work!), we pour scorn on them and made little snide comments about that they said. I'm here  to help other people, and to know  more things about a subject that interested me since I'm 11 years old: the Romanovs

 I beg you to don't treat Dr. Schweitzer like this. All people here must learn to be adult (starting by myself; I'm not blind!  :) ) . Don't let this great board to became a nightmare.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on June 21, 2005, 09:24:37 PM
I thought etonexile had a reasonable response.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 21, 2005, 09:41:23 PM
Seems to me that Mr. King recently posted a response, and I've seen Penny Wilson all over this board.

I don't know about playing games, but I am offended that only a few people get answers and the rest of us are in the dark.

Of course, now that I know that Teddy will give me a good reference, I feel better.  Now I just have to choose which country club or revolutionary cell to join.....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on June 21, 2005, 10:04:34 PM
Finelly,
When you find out the secret, can I be part of your club?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Mgmstl on June 21, 2005, 10:14:26 PM
Quote
Seems to me that Mr. King recently posted a response, and I've seen Penny Wilson all over this board.

I don't know about playing games, but I am offended that only a few people get answers and the rest of us are in the dark.

Of course, now that I know that Teddy will give me a good reference, I feel better.  Now I just have to choose which country club or revolutionary cell to join.....


Before you were on this board there was a great deal of abuse & disrespect towards Greg, Penny, & anyone who did not agree with a certain line of thinking, however things have calmed down at this point.

I am also not sure that DaveK got the answer that you think he received.  I believe that he answered a female poster privately.   We are very lucky to have the ability to post and interact with Greg, Penny, Peter & Dr Schweitzer.  It is also a great experience to come into contact with such a diverse group of people with a similar interest.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 21, 2005, 10:39:44 PM
Lexi, you can be in my club, but you have to promise never to tell anyone anything except in private messages.  <g>
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 22, 2005, 11:02:19 AM
Quote

...[in part]....

One thing I wished later we had done was to obtain whatever pertinent comparisons there might be to the DNA of Nicholas II (male of course, and thus not mtDNA).Perhaps that may be done some day - like old-fashioned parental tests. Possibly of little probative value,but worth knowing.

RRS


I was under the impression that Dr. Gill's tests shows us that the bones identified as Nicholas II was the parent of the three sets of bones identified as three of his daughters.

Or,  am I misunderstanding your thoughts on this subject?

Or did I misunderstand Helen A. in one of the DNA threads when she told us this had been done?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on June 22, 2005, 11:29:56 AM
Quote
As I and Mr Schweitzer agreed to discuss this topic in private correspondence (as he prefers that way), there will be no more posting regarding this subject. Just so you guys know…..


I assume this is the post about which Finelly seems to be having a little "I'm being left out" feeling.

There are many times posters who have private conversations called PMs.  It is not unusual.  It does not mean they like you less, it just means they have more to say to each other and may become more understanding of each other positions.

I'm sure when or if Richard Schweitzer feels more comfortable in the forum he will answer your question or at least explain why he prefers to answer some of these questions in PMs.

Remember: Patience grows more flowers in the garden.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Forum Admin on June 22, 2005, 11:39:03 AM
Quote

Remember: Patience grows more flowers in the garden.

AGRBear


So does a lot of manure!  ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on June 22, 2005, 11:51:12 AM
I know all about pms.  

I just find it disconcerting that on a question of public interest, only some people get the answer.

No matter.  I'm going back to my attempts to grow flowers in cans of diet dr. pepper.  It MUST work!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on June 22, 2005, 10:27:14 PM
Quote
I know all about pms.  

I just find it disconcerting that on a question of public interest, only some people get the answer.

No matter.  I'm going back to my attempts to grow flowers in cans of diet dr. pepper.  It MUST work!


I also find it disconcerting.
And I know you know all about pms as do I. (just in case someone feels the need to tell me,)
;D
If that Dr. Pepper thing doesn't work out, try a Coke can. 8)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 10, 2005, 09:52:51 PM
I'd still be really interested in hearing from anyone about what Schweitzer is thinking...what theory he is now exploring.....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 06:38:18 PM
While looking for something else,  I, again, stumbled over something interesting, so, I looked around and didn't find a thread where it could be placed, so, not being afraid to start list threads,  I'm starting this one.  And this one is about people who believed Anna Anderson was Gd Anastasia before the DNA tests.

As we start,  I'd like to see names, when they saw AA and what made them deside AA was the GD Anastasia.  Please, give a source [book and page] and if you know the dates.

So,  I'll start off with Mathilde Kschessinska's testimony which occured in front of the French camerias during an interview in 1967 and what wasn't seen through the camera's eyes was taped to give us additional information.

FILE ON THE TSAR p. 223-4  is where Summers and Mangold tell us:
>>...When interviews about "Anastasia".... she was 95 years old but restill remarkbly alet and coherent.  Her son Vladimir was present at the interview , and had supervised all the arrangements.. He had even prepared a written statement for is mother to deliver... But Mathilde.. decided not to stick to the script, and when the key question ws asked, a very different answer emerged:

Proteau:  "Princess, in 1928, in Paris you met the woman who in those days was called the "Mystery Woman of Berlin'. "
Kschessinska: "I did see her -- once."
Proteau: "And what did you think of her?"
Kschessinka: "That it was she."

"..it was folllowed by a moment of stunned silence, and then there was an angry interruption from her son:  "Niet, niet, cut!  You just cut!" The cameras stopped turning, but two tape machines continued to record what folllowed... The old lady remained unabashed, and continued to talk for another half hour, expressing full confidence that the claimant really was Anastasia."

Oh,  I can hear the groans from the DNAers, but, remember this isn't a thread to prove AA was GD Anastasia, this is merely to show who believed she was before DNA testing.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 06:41:37 PM
The List of People Who Believed AA was GD Anastasia:

1.  Mathilde Kschessinska, the ex-lover of Nicholas II who married Grand Duke Andrei, saw AA in 1928.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2005, 06:43:03 PM
Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will take the AN traffic away from mine.

As for Mathilde's comments, I will not call her a liar, but after all, she was 95 years old and had not really ever seen Anastasia in real life enough to know her. Just saying the eyes remind her of Nicky means nothing. A lot of people have the same color eyes.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 26, 2005, 06:46:28 PM
So, a rather theatrical old lady who had no reason to know the REAL Anastasia and met the "pretender" only once is credible? Who is this "we" you are constantly refering to, by the way ?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 06:47:11 PM
Quote
Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will take the AN traffic away from mine.

As for Mathilde's comments, I will not call her a liar, but after all, she was 95 years old and had not really ever seen Anastasia in real life enough to know her. Just saying the eyes remind her of Nicky means nothing. A lot of people have the same color eyes.


You are telling us that Mathilde didn't know Anastasia.  How do you know this?  Please, give a source.  And, you added about Mathilde  telling someone that  AA's eyes were the same as Nicholas II.  Who did she tell?  Again, please, give a source.

To be fair with Mathilde, evidently she must have said something more in the half hour interview with Proteau if this is where the statement about AA's blue eyes originated.   Anyone have more on this interview?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 06:53:25 PM
Quote
So, a rather theatrical old lady who had no reason to know the REAL Anastasia and met the "pretender" only once is credible? Who is this "we" you are constantly refering to, by the way ?



So far "we"  involves, myself, Annie and Robert.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 26, 2005, 06:55:11 PM
How do you know she did ? It is common sense that a former "intime" of Nicholas' would not be privy to the private world of the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 07:09:20 PM
I'm sorry Robert, I don't understand the question.

Are you asking how do I know M. K.  said she believed AA was GD Anastasia?  It was on camera and on tape in a television studio in France.  Does it make a difference if the woman was 20 or 95?  Of course it can.  Some people lose their memory at my age while others like my grandmother, who died at 96, had a better memory than I ever had.  I suppose you'd have to see/hear the interview to make up your own mind.  I, personally, have not seen nor heard it.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2005, 07:12:29 PM
How I know Mathilde didn't know Anastasia very well: One, there is no story of them ever meeting in any book. Also, considering that she was her father's former MISTRESS it's not likely she was a frequent visitor to the palace! Even if she did come, at some party, consider that the family was very private so the children were not commonly seen by all. And you had to be 16-17 to attend grown up parties. By the time Anastasia was that age, sadly, she was in captivity and no one saw her.

Also, if Mathilde was 95, that would have made the real Anastasia 65, and not looking much like she did at 15, the last time anyone outside captivity saw her! Much too old to judge by then.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 26, 2005, 07:16:53 PM
I am questioning the woman's credibilty in identifying a woman she never knew as a little girl. The ballerina was a known courtesan of at least 3 grand dukes, I hardly think  she would have been welcomed into the confines of Tsarkoe Selo. Especially with Alexandra's known proclivities.
Also,  a check of the mosr current and also thorough bio on the lady "Imperial Dancer" by Coryne Hall  also indicates they never met. [the real Anastasia, that is, as a child].
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2005, 07:18:44 PM
Another who believed:

Crown Princess Celicie of Germany, wife of Crown Prince Wilhelm, son of the Kaiser

Cecile was the daughter of Anastasia Mikhailovich, the only sister of Sergei and Sandro and the other Mikhailovichi, who had been close to the IF. But consider that Cecile was born in 1886, and married off at age 18 in 1904, moved to Germany when Anastasia was only 3! So it's not like they grew up together! And she only made infrequent visits to Russia, when she did, a young child distant cousin was not her priority. Because of the war. Cecile didn't return to Russia after 1913 when AN was only 12. So I hardly think she knew her well enough to be a judge!

Besides, Cecile and Wilhelm both became rather eccentric after the war and the loss of the power and dynasty they had hoped to claim one day.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2005, 07:21:41 PM
Another cousin who for awhile claimed her:

Xenia Georgevna, daughter of George Mikhailovich. She was Anastasia's age and they did see each other as children, about twice a year, and not every year. She had not seen her since she was over 10, I don't think. If I am not mistaken, though Xenia never officially denounced her, she did withdrawl her support and ignored AA after the 1930's.

Then there's Gleb Botkin. And you know I think he, being a journalist, may have been in it for a good story. We will never know, he's dead and can't tell us.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Arleen on July 26, 2005, 07:37:02 PM
Gleb Botkin was a true believer for all of his life.  Just ask his son-in-law Richard Schweitzer, he would be glad to tell you his views and in fact has on another thread.

..Arleen
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 08:27:09 PM
Annie,  I am not into all this information about AA, since I never was an AA follower,  as you and others are/were.  Please,  give me sources and pages so when I have time, I can look up the source and see what you've mention, discover who some of these people are/were and more,  if  there is more.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 08:31:36 PM
Quote
... [ in part]...
Another cousin who for awhile claimed her:

Xenia Georgevna, daughter of George Mikhailovich. She was Anastasia's age and they did see each other as children, about twice a year, and not every year. She had not seen her since she was over 10, I don't think. If I am not mistaken, though Xenia never officially denounced her, she did withdrawl her support and ignored AA after the 1930's.
...


I have a lot of cousins and with many I have small personal stories which only we know.  Did AA tell Xenia one of those stories or was it something else since you are indicating that she believed AA was GD Anastasia?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 08:34:43 PM
Quote
Another who believed:

Crown Princess Celicie of Germany, wife of Crown Prince Wilhelm, son of the Kaiser

Cecile was the daughter of Anastasia Mikhailovich, the only sister of Sergei and Sandro and the other Mikhailovichi, who had been close to the IF. But consider that Cecile was born in 1886, and married off at age 18 in 1904, moved to Germany when Anastasia was only 3! So it's not like they grew up together! And she only made infrequent visits to Russia, when she did, a young child distant cousin was not her priority. Because of the war. Cecile didn't return to Russia after 1913 when AN was only 12. So I hardly think she knew her well enough to be a judge!

Besides, Cecile and Wilhelm both became rather eccentric after the war and the loss of the power and dynasty they had hoped to claim one day.


Why did she believe AA was GD Anastasia?

When did she meet AA?

Source please.

And, thanks  for all the posts.  It's getting us off to a very nice start.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 26, 2005, 08:39:08 PM
Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich

Lili von Dehn

Tatiana Botkin Melnik

Felix Dassel

Zenaida Tolstoy

Marianne Nilov, widow of the Commander of the Standart

Princess Martha of Sweden, Crown-Princess of Norway

George Romanovsky, Duke of Leuchtenberg

General Max Hoffmann

Prince Sigismund of Prussia (a first cousin)

Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg

Princess Xenia Georgievna


Tentatively:

Admiral Papa-Federov ("If she would only speak Russian, I would acknowledge her on the spot")

Alexis Volkov ("If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?")

Alexandra Tegleva-Gilliard
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 08:43:05 PM
Quote
I am questioning the woman's credibilty in identifying a woman she never knew as a little girl. The ballerina was a known courtesan of at least 3 grand dukes, I hardly think  she would have been welcomed into the confines of Tsarkoe Selo. Especially with Alexandra's known proclivities.
Also,  a check of the mosr current and also thorough bio on the lady "Imperial Dancer" by Coryne Hall  also indicates they never met. [the real Anastasia, that is, as a child].


I am sorry,  I do not have C. Hall's book.

I have no idea if Mathilde K. ever met GD Anastasia.  And,  like I said, I know nothing about what  was said in the interview accept those few lines given above.   Perhaps her knowledge of Anastasia was through other members of the royal family.  Women's idle chatter can be quite informative so I'm not sure you or anyone can know what Mathilde K. knew or did not know about Anastasia.  And,  she did know Nicholas II very well, so,  I can't really say anything more, Robert.

You tell us that Mathilde K. was a "courtesan" to three dukes.  I'm not sure if that means she learned less or more about the Royal Family through those years.  Nor, do I know if this makes her less or more believeable.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 08:51:02 PM
Quote
Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich

Lili von Dehn

Tatiana Botkin Melnik

Felix Dassel

Zenaida Tolstoy

Marianne Nilov, widow of the Commander of the Standart

Princess Martha of Sweden, Crown-Princess of Norway

George Romanovsky, Duke of Leuchtenberg

General Max Hoffmann

Prince Sigismund of Prussia (a first cousin)

Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg

Princess Xenia Georgievna


Tentatively:

Admiral Papa-Federov ("If she would only speak Russian, I would acknowledge her on the spot")

Alexis Volkov ("If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?")

Alexandra Tegleva-Gilliard


Thanks Penny.

Someone want to help us out and point me to the sources, dates and when or if they [Penny's and Annie's list] met AA?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 26, 2005, 08:51:56 PM
Quote

I have a lot of cousins and with many I have small personal stories which only we know.  Did AA tell Xenia one of those stories or was it something else since you are indicating that she believed AA was GD Anastasia?

AGRBear


From Peter Kurth, Anastasia:

...Xenia had no intention of joining battle with Gilliard, but she did endeavor to answer the charge. "I shouldn't say that even after prolonged association I recognized the claimant visually," she explained. "... Fourteen years had passed since I last saw Anastasia in the Crimea in the Spring of 1914, but I felt I was competent to make up my mind on the difference between a member of my own family and an unfortunate Polish peasant woman who, so it was claimed, had been taught these things." There were specifics. "There was an all-around family resemblance, particularly on her mother's side."  There was Anastasia's chronic moodiness, which reminded Xenia of the "frightfully temperamental" cousin she had known in Russia.  There was the commanding bearing, the hot temper, and the tendency to melancholy that Xenia remembered in her godmother, Empress Alexandra.  And there were, as always, Anastasia's stunning blue eyes: "Her father, the Tsar, and his sister, Grand Duchess Xenia, had similarly expressive eyes as I recall." (page 216)

"... I felt that if she were separated from doubtful people accused of suggesting memories and facts which she claimed to know, then her true identity and personality must reveal itself.  This in my opinion is exactly how it turned out, what I found and have therefore firmly believed ever since: that she is Anastasia... I confined myself to a constant observation.  And it was above all through this observation that I was able to convince myself finally that her behavior did not consist of studied posturings or words she had learned, but rather that she was herself." (page 216)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 26, 2005, 08:59:50 PM
Xenia Georgievna continued:

Again, from PK:

For the duration of her residence at Oyster Bay Anastasia spoke almost entirely in English.  Princess Xenia never heard a German word out of her... Anastasia's English accent was "good," Xenia said, although grammatically she was "a bit rusty.  That is, English phrases failed her now and then."  But there were never any gaps in communication.  "The family was so polylingual," Xenia's daughter recalled, "that, when speaking among themselves, they chose a word simply for its precision, from one of several languages, including Russian... My mother deliberately substituted Russian words in the crux of a sentence to see if Anastasia would follow what was said.  She always did."  Sometimes, too, without thinking about it, Anastasia herself still "burst into Russian."  Xenia had bought her two parakeets as a gift from the West Indies.  Anastasia was thrilled with the birds and often let them play outside their cage.  "Look," she cried in Russian one day, "They are dancing on the windowsill!"  She walked through the garden with Margharita Derfelden, talking about the flowers and "calling them by their quaint Russian names."  And then once, while Xenia stood unnoticed in her doorway, she heard Anastasia speak to her birds for several minutes entirely in Russian -- "and perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society." (page 217)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 26, 2005, 09:05:42 PM
Xenia Georgievna continued:

PK, Anastasia:

Then there was the day that the past surged up and nearly destroyed the tentative friendship Xenia had established with her unhappy guest.  Xenia had invited her cousin, Prince Dmitri of Russia, to Oyster bay for a tennis game.  Dmitri was the son of the Tsar's sister Xenia and of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, the fun-loving spiritualist, and consequently was also a cousin of Grand Duchess Anastasia.  "The [tennis] court," Xenia explained, "was immediately behind the house opposite the windows of the room occupied by the claimant, but completely hidden by a wire fence covered with vines, so that the players could be heard but not seen from the claimant's window."  When Xenia went up to Anastasia's room to say good morning, Anastasia turned her back and refused to reply.

"How can I know what is the matter when you won't speak to me?" Xenia asked.

"You lied to me," Anastasia replied; "you promised not to bring them here."

Xenia pretended not to understand: "What are you talking about?"

"I know his voice.  It's one of the cousins." (page 219)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 26, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
Great thread Bear! I will do some research and add what I can. Thank you Penny.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2005, 11:09:30 PM
Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 26, 2005, 11:18:52 PM
Tatiana Botkin:
Summers & Mangold page 204:
"Madame Botkin had been with the Imperial Family in exile at Tobolsk, and had been one of the last to see Anastasia. She now arrived expecting to find a pathetic imposter, and intended to end the controversy once and for all. Ti her utter surprise, she felt at once that she was face to face with the real Anastasia. Soon she had not the slightest doubt, and remains loyal to the claimant to this day."

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 26, 2005, 11:29:44 PM
Quote
I'm sorry Robert, I don't understand the question.

Are you asking how do I know M. K.  said she believed AA was GD Anastasia?  It was on camera and on tape in a television studio in France.  Does it make a difference if the woman was 20 or 95?  Of course it can.  Some people lose their memory at my age while others like my grandmother, who died at 96, had a better memory than I ever had.  I suppose you'd have to see/hear the interview to make up your own mind.  I, personally, have not seen nor heard it.

AGRBear


Another source Bear: Massie "the Romanovs: The Final Chapter." p. 175

"In the years following Grand Duchess Olga's rejection, only two Romanovs declared in the claimants favor. One was Grand Duke Andrew, Nicholas II's first cousin, who had seen the young Anastasia occassionally at family lunches. Troubled by Mrs. tschaikovsky's claime, he received Empress Marie's permssin to take charge of the investigation. In January 1928, he spent two days with the claimant. After first meeting with her, he cried happily 'I have seen Nicky's daughter! I have seen Nicky's daughter!' Later, he wrote to Grand Duchess Olga, 'I have observed her carefully at close quarters, and tothe best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is none other than my niece the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna. For me there is definitely no doubt: it is Anastasia.'"
"On this same occasion, Grand Duke Andrew's wife, the former prima ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska, also met the claimant. In 1967, after Andrew's death, his ninety-five-year-old widow, who three quarters of a century before had been the youthful Nicholas II's mistress, was asked about the claimant. 'I am certain it was she,' Madame Kschessinska replied. 'When she looked at me, you understand, with those eyes, that was it. It was the emperor...it was the emperor's looke. Anyone who saw the emperor's eyes will never forget them.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Mgmstl on July 26, 2005, 11:30:23 PM
Quote
Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will take the AN traffic away from mine.

As for Mathilde's comments, I will not call her a liar, but after all, she was 95 years old and had not really ever seen Anastasia in real life enough to know her. Just saying the eyes remind her of Nicky means nothing. A lot of people have the same color eyes.




While Mathilde's statements may not be of the greatest importance, I think it is significant to remember that Princess Xenia stated the same thing about the startling blue eyes so resembling the depth of those of Tsar Nicholas.... This was some 40 years later.'

As far as taking traffic from "your" thread, I didn't realize you owned the thread, perhaps I will create a few and then throw a fit when you post on them...
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 26, 2005, 11:51:34 PM
Here you go Bear
Princess Cecilie Robert Massie The Romanovs: The Final Chapter p.168

"Gradually, other members of the former German Imperial family followed. In 1925 Crown Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law, called on the claimant. Cecilie was 'struck at first by the youtn person's resemblance to the tsar's mother and to the tsar himself, but I could see nothing of the tsarina in her." Again, Mrs. Tschaikovsky provided no help. 'It was virtually impossible to communicate with the young person,' Cecilie observed. 'She reamined completely silent, either from obstinacy or because she was totally bewildered.' Subsequently, Crown Princess Cecilie's opinion wavered, as had Princess Irene's. 'I almost believe it must be she,' Cecilie declared. But, as Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her Uncle Ernst of Hesse opposed the claim, Cecilie decided that 'it was not my business to follow up one the question of her identity.'
"By 1952, after three subsequewnt visits to the claimant, the corwn princess had changed her mind. 'Today I am convinced she is hte tsar's youngest daughter,' she said. 'I detect her mother's features in her.''

That was not difficult information to find nor is it unreasonable to ask for a source.
Hope that helps you Bear, it did me.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Mgmstl on July 26, 2005, 11:58:53 PM
Quote
Here you go Bear
Princess Cecilie Robert Massie The Romanovs: The Final Chapter p.168

"Gradually, other members of the former German Imperial family followed. In 1925 Crown Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law, called on the claimant. Cecilie was 'struck at first by the youtn person's resemblance to the tsar's mother and to the tsar himself, but I could see nothing of the tsarina in her." Again, Mrs. Tschaikovsky provided no help. 'It was virtually impossible to communicate with the young person,' Cecilie observed. 'She reamined completely silent, either from obstinacy or because she was totally bewildered.' Subsequently, Crown Princess Cecilie's opinion wavered, as had Princess Irene's. 'I almost believe it must be she,' Cecilie declared. But, as Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her Uncle Ernst of Hesse opposed the claim, Cecilie decided that 'it was not my business to follow up one the question of her identity.'
"By 1952, after three subsequewnt visits to the claimant, the corwn princess had changed her mind. 'Today I am convinced she is hte tsar's youngest daughter,' she said. 'I detect her mother's features in her.''

That was not difficult information to find nor is it unreasonable to ask for a source.
Hope that helps you Bear, it did me.


Lexi,  I had read this before in one of the books.  It is interesting to know that the German Crown Princess recognized her.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 12:03:14 AM


Michael, I thought I'd take a second and look it up since Anne didn't have the time or the resources to track it down.

Quote
Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 12:22:26 AM
Another believer according to Massie in The Final Chapter p. 168

"Meanwhile, another Hohenzollern, Princess Irene's son Prince Sigismund of Prussia, dispathed from his home in Costa Rica a list of eighteen questions for the claimant to answer. They were secret things from their childhood, he said, which only his cousin could know. The claimant answered sufficiently well for Sigismund, sight unseen to announce, 'This has convinced me. She is undoubtedly Anastasia of Ruissia.' Even told the ex-Kaiser Wilhelm II, living in exile in Holland, sent his second wife, Empress Hermine, to visit the claimant in a German sanatorium. Now statement was issued, but from the august quarter silence was assumed to mean assent."

Wouldn't you love to see the list of those 18 questions and the response? I wonder if that is available anywhere.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 27, 2005, 12:26:23 AM
I read somewhere, but do not recall where, that the questions Prince Sigismund wrote up were benign and could have been answered correclty in a number of ways.....

I do not have a source for this and am curious to know if anyone has read this.  Penny?  You probably have read more than any of us....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2005, 02:20:36 PM
Quote
Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.


How do I approach Annie's hurt feelings when there was no intention of hurting her feelings.   My asking of sources such as books and page numbers is being asked so we can button down who said what to whom, when and where.  

If someone doesn't remember where they read something,  then just say you don't remember.  Just ask for help. If someone doesn't have the time then say you don't have the time.  Ask for help.  If it's anywhere someone will find it.   This isn't a contest.  This is a fact finding mission.

And, guess what,  we don't have to have the source in hand at the very moment you post.   You can just say, you'll be back, or, again, just ask for help.

And, let me again repeat,  I have NOT been a follower of AA so I for one really need these sources.  And, I appreciate those who will help Annie and others with the sources.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 10:41:59 PM
I agree Bear. I like to have the sources so I can read for myself. I want to be able to read as much as I can about whatever is posted. So I appreciate when others cite the sources. I do not think it unreasonable. I don't have all the books some of you have, but I am working on that.
And I am happy to help find sources shoud anyone need it.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2005, 12:41:57 PM
Quote

Another source Bear: Massie "the Romanovs: The Final Chapter." p. 175

"In the years following Grand Duchess Olga's rejection, only two Romanovs declared in the claimants favor. One was Grand Duke Andrew, Nicholas II's first cousin, who had seen the young Anastasia occassionally at family lunches. Troubled by Mrs. tschaikovsky's claime, he received Empress Marie's permssin to take charge of the investigation. In January 1928, he spent two days with the claimant. After first meeting with her, he cried happily 'I have seen Nicky's daughter! I have seen Nicky's daughter!' Later, he wrote to Grand Duchess Olga, 'I have observed her carefully at close quarters, and tothe best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is none other than my niece the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna. For me there is definitely no doubt: it is Anastasia.'"
"On this same occasion, Grand Duke Andrew's wife, the former prima ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska, also met the claimant. In 1967, after Andrew's death, his ninety-five-year-old widow, who three quarters of a century before had been the youthful Nicholas II's mistress, was asked about the claimant. 'I am certain it was she,' Madame Kschessinska replied. 'When she looked at me, you understand, with those eyes, that was it. It was the emperor...it was the emperor's looke. Anyone who saw the emperor's eyes will never forget them.


So, Mathilde did meet AA and, to add to this, her husband was convinced AA was  GD Anastasia after being with AA for two days.

When digging around to discover the truth, we've discovered,  Mathilde was, also,  carrying the opinion of her husband's views about AA as well.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 28, 2005, 01:33:19 PM
You are welcome Bear.
Now I have more questions, which I am hoping to find the answers to.
1. When did she meet AN? Is there any record of it or reference to it?
2. How much contact did they have?
I am not looking for speculation and opinions. I am going through what books I do have to see if I can learn more about this. I will post what I find, if anything. Someone like Penny may already know these answers.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2005, 02:54:02 PM
So, let me work on this post for a time and pull in a list of what we have up to this point, meanwhile, the rest of you keep up the good work.

Start with Penny's list and then I'll add from other posts.  And they are:

Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich
 
Lili von Dehn
 
Tatiana Botkin Melnik
 
Felix Dassel
 
Zenaida Tolstoy
 
Marianne Nilov, widow of the Commander of the Standart
 
Princess Martha of Sweden, Crown-Princess of Norway
 
George Romanovsky, Duke of Leuchtenberg
 
General Max Hoffmann
 
Prince Sigismund of Prussia (a first cousin)
 
Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg
 
Princess Xenia Georgievna

 
 
Penny's List that she considered being "Tentatively":
 
Admiral Papa-Federov ("If she would only speak Russian, I would acknowledge her on the spot")
 
Alexis Volkov ("If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?")
 
Alexandra Tegleva-Gilliard

And the list grows:

Mathilde Kschessinska

Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: stepan on July 28, 2005, 06:16:56 PM
Quote
I read somewhere, but do not recall where, that the questions Prince Sigismund wrote up were benign and could have been answered correclty in a number of ways.....

I do not have a source for this and am curious to know if anyone has read this.  Penny?  You probably have read more than any of us....


"He asked the claimant to say when and where they had last met.Her answer was that it had been in 1912 at Spala,the imperial hunting lodge in what was then Russian Poland. This was correct. Secondly,the prince asked where he,Sigismund, had been accommodated. Anna Anderson replied that it had been at the quarters of Baron (later count) Fredericks, the minister of the court. Not only was this correct, but Sigismund was impressed because it was a trivial fact which had been published nowhere, indeed there was no reason for anybody outside the tsar´s  intimate circle to remember it. Prince Sigismund eventually testified that these answers and the answers to a further  fourteen questions had satisfied him totally: "The replies were perfectly correct and could only have been given by the grand duchess herself. This has convinced me... that she is without doubt Anastasia of Russia."  
In the 70s the prince confirmed to us that he had since visited Europe, in 1957, and met Anna Anderson. The face to face meetings had strengthened his conviction that she was genuine. We must note however, that prince Sigismund had also met, and believed in, the"Grand Duchess Olga" of lake Como. It was a belief in which he was almost entirely alone."

This quote is from The file on the Tsar by Summers and Mangold. As you notice only a few of the quastions are shown here. I have never seen the complete list anywhere.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 28, 2005, 07:15:43 PM
Yes, I recall that description from Kurth's book.  I just thought that I had read somewhere an article or chapter about SIgismund, that he was not very bright or very gullible, and that his questions were innocuous.   But, perhaps, I was dreaming!  lol
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on July 28, 2005, 11:15:16 PM
According to Summers & Mangold (pp. 226-27) General Max Hoffman stated that AA was the AN in 1927.
"One of the people Hoffman spoke to about the affiar was Baron AMagnus von Braun, father of the famous space scientist, Wernher von Braun. The baron testified that General Hoffman, died in Jluy 1927, shortly after making his curious assertin, and just before he was due to visit Anna Anderson. He had been reported as saying: 'I don't have to see her, I know', as though he had inside information which had come his way years before. As one of Germany's top commanders who had been in charge of the 1918 peace negotiations with the Bolsheviks, he may have had access to privlieged intelligence about German efforts to help the Romanovs, an what became of them. But here we are left speculating - in the general's published papers and diaries the fate of the Russian imperial family is notable only be its complete omission."
This is the only reference I have found on Hoffman so far.

Felix Dassel was a soldier wounded in 1916 and treated at the Tsarskoe Selo hospital. The hospital was under the patronage of Marie and Anastasia who ofter visited there.
"Dassel got to know htem well, and after his discharge the tsarina appointed him their escort. When he learned about Anna Anderson's claims, in Germany 1927, Dassel devised a way to test her on that specific period in the real Anastasia's life. Before meeting her he wrote down a series of minute details about those hospital days, details only the real Anastasia and Maria could have known. He sealed the notes in an envelope and had them put in a a safe by the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who was at that time Anna Anderson's host. He then met and questioned the claimant, making deliberate mistakes to discover whether or not she would correct them. The claimant passed the test with flying colours. she correctly identified 'Mandrifolie' as her sister Maria's nickname. She put right Dassel's deliberate error of placing the billiard table at Tsarskoe Selo upstairs - it had been downstairs. When Dassel mentioned that she and Maria had come to the hospital every day, often with their brother Grand Duke Alexei, she accurately pointed out that they had only been able to visit the hospital two or three times a weekm and they had never brought Alexei along. The clincher for Dassel came when the Duke of Leuchtenberg referred to an old Russian colonel, who Dassel remembered well. in Dassel's words:
'...she was seized suddenly by a little laugh, a little laugh which rang in my ears, a trifle muffled, a little uneven, but exactly, exactly as of old...I could not reman seated, I jumped up and grabbed the back of my chair. "The man with the pockets!" she said. "The man with the pockets?"
'Yes, yes. He had been given that name - and naturally I had forgotten it a long time ago. It was Anastasia who had given it to him, because the warrior from the front, impulsive and blunt, always natrual, had often forgotten etiquette and spoken to the grand duchesses with his hand in his pockets...Abruptly I recognized her, I was convinced."

I believe Kurth also talks about this episode in his book, but I can't find my copy right now. :(
more to come....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 29, 2005, 12:08:18 AM
Yes, that is discussed in Kurth's book.  I have never seen any explanation of how AA might have known about this rather minor little incident in the lives of the GDs.....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: etonexile on July 29, 2005, 11:02:32 AM
All of these "recognitions" are fascinating in light of what we now know about AA...that she was NOT AN...but several intelligent people thought that she was genuine....she was well rehersed...and people often see what they want to see....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on July 29, 2005, 12:36:20 PM
Probably not a good idea for posters to go in the direction if AA was GD Anastasia since this thread is about people who believed she was before the DNA tests.

Thanks.

Gotta run.

Be back Sunday.

Oops, almost forgot:  Thanks everyone for digging up this stuff.

AGBRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: JonC on July 29, 2005, 06:52:36 PM
I'm sorry but this thread irks me. I am aware of the parameters nevertheless it seems like a useless spinning of ones proverbial wheels.

I see those who believed, before the DNA, that AA was AN as hoping against hope that it was true. Ihave read some of their exclamations verifying that AN had been found and I feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 29, 2005, 07:58:24 PM
Great!  Then we'll assume you will not be posting here but will confine your comments to other threads.  Thanks for letting us know.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 29, 2005, 09:14:44 PM
You feel sorry for me? Well, don't get offended then: I feel sorry for you. You think I'm a fool for I didn't believe the DNA results, and I think you doesn't analyze things thinking about the possibility of contaminated or changed tissues. Why this couldn't have been possible? I knew some cases where it happened. So, why not in AA's case? I'm not conspirative. I think that humanity is not perfect and people could do such things if they have their own interest. I'm not a bit upset our angry with you, or anyone here. I'm only surprised for anyone would think  for sure, without  being in the conspirative theories, that a DNA test could have been faked, the tissues contaminated or not belonging to AA, etc. It's a possibility among hundreds of them.

But, we are mixing up thinks. Bear is right. We are discussing AA supporters, not if she was AN, FS or whoever she was.Besides, we are free to think as we wants to think about this matter, even if people call us fools...you'll not change it.  :-/

RealAnastasia.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: JonC on July 29, 2005, 10:29:15 PM
Real Anastasia,

You used the word 'fool' not I. I wasn't commenting about the posters on this thread. I felt sorry for those who had vouched for AA who were relatives of the Royal family who were hoping that Anastasia had been found. I hope that's clear.

Finelly...! We had an agreement...KEEP it!!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Finelly on July 29, 2005, 11:34:36 PM
Great!  Then we'll assume you will not be posting here but will confine your comments to other threads.  Thanks for letting us know.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: JonC on July 30, 2005, 10:05:17 AM
I will post on whatever thread I feel like...we don't have to answer each other.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: Forum Admin on July 30, 2005, 10:53:45 AM
JonC.
NO, I have expressly stated that so long as the parameters are reasonable, and this one is, the parameters MUST be respected by posters. Period.

FA
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: JonC on July 30, 2005, 10:36:02 PM
As you wish, FA.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on August 01, 2005, 03:19:56 PM
Thought I'd place this data here from krasnorselo from So Who Was She Then, Post 171:

>>« Reply #171 on: Jan 24th, 2005, 11:17pm »


Hey everyone.
 
I want to thank everyone for participating in this subject.  It is very refreshing to have an avenue to discuss this matter.  
 
Regarding Olga Alexandrovna Kulinovskii's visit to AA I thought Id include some of Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann's notes on the matter- since Olga, who after reading part of Harriet's manuscript told Ambassador Herluf Zahle: (that it was 'correct in its depection' [of the meetings in Berlin]; but she hadn't read the rest [of the manuscript] because she had no great command of German) Kurth: Anastasia The RIddle of Anna Anderson page 407 footnote 24.
 
The account was from Harriet's book Anastasia: Survivor of Yekaterinburg 1929
 
"On the afternoon of the same day there was a knock at the door.  A lady (Olga) in a violet cloak entered, followed by the Danish Ambassador.  She went straight to the invalid's bed...The lady (Olga) spoke to her (AA) in Russian, but she (AA) replied in her halting German....After some time she (AA) inquired: 'How is Grandmamma? How is her heart?' ...Only, after nearly two hours, when the latter (Olga) had left the room for a few moments, did Mr Zahle (The Danish Ambassador) ask the invalid: 'Who is this lady?'  Thereupon she answered happily: 'Papa's sister, my Aunt Olga' "
 
"The Grand Duchess came again in the afternoon.   On this occassion she was not alone.  The lady who accompanied her had once visited the invalid in the Mary Hospital with Mr. Gillard.  It was the Shura the sufferer (AA) was longing to see.  Shura herself was excited.  She approached the bed and asked smiling in Russian: 'How are you?'  In great agitation, the invalid glanced at her face and examined her figure; she answers in German, and gave her her hand.  She did not kiss her hand as she had done with the Grand Duchess (Olga).  Smiling, she regarded the person standing before her.  Ther Grand Duchess bent over her, and asked her in a friendly and lively manner: 'Now, who is that?' 'Shura,' she replied.  We all heard it.  [Shura was Anastasia's nickname for her nursemaid Alexandra Tegleva-the rest of the family called her Sascha].  Thereupon, the Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna clapped her hands and, beaming with happiness, exclaimed: 'Right, right; but now we must speak Russian, because Shura does not understand German.' "  Anna continued in German while Shura spoke with her only in Russian.  
 
Continued in Peter Kuth's book: "Soon Grand Duchess Olga called Harriet von Rathlef out onto the balconey.  She pointed into the sickroom and said, 'Our little one and Shura seem very happy to have found one another again.' [Little one was a term of endearment used in the family both for Anastasia and Alexei] 'If I had any money, I would do everything for the little one, but I haven't any and must earn my own pocket money by painting.'   ...'I am so happy that I came, and I did it even though Mamma did not want me to.  She was so angry with me when I came.  And then my sister [Grand Duchess Xenia] wired me from England saying that under no circumstances shoud I come to see the little one.'    
 
Anna decidely understood Russian- and in many instances spoke it. As recounted by Princess Xenia Leeds.  As found in Peter Kurths book that "once, while Xenia stood unnoticed in her doorway, she heard Anastasia (Anna) speak to her birds for several minutes entirly in Russian- 'and perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society." (page 217).  Of course this has nothing to due with AA's claim to be AN but indeed stories like this must be considered when trying to determine the accuracy of the claim that AA was FS, when FS knew no Russian and spoke only "a little Polish and good German." according to FS's brother Felix. FS and her family were more German than Polish.  See Peter Kurth's website regarding their Kashubian origins.    
 
http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHA NZKOWSKA.htm
 
Thanks,
Tim <<

IP Logged
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: lexi4 on August 01, 2005, 05:36:09 PM
Bear,
Do we have enough info on the believers to start looking for similarities among them? Amount of exposure to the IF, relationship with the family, etc. Or do we still have some on Penny's list we have not researched enough? I have been out of town, but will look at Penny's list later and try to figure out where we stand, unless you aleady know or don't want the discussion to go off in that direction.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
Post by: AGRBear on August 01, 2005, 05:53:08 PM
I've been gone, too, so, I haven't checked to see if everyone has been listed and that we have sources.  

AGRBear