Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: Sarai on May 19, 2004, 01:04:37 PM

Title: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Sarai on May 19, 2004, 01:04:37 PM
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Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on May 29, 2004, 12:25:43 PM
In Van der Kiste's "Queen Victoria's Children", and Salway's "Queen Victoria's grandchildren", it says that Waldemar was "to become the favourite son of both Vicky and Fritz.. he was quick to learn and his mother found him a pleasure to teach... He was boisterous and high-spirited, with a sensible independent and honest nature.. Vicky always claimed he resembled her father.. "
Waldemar had a "fun loving" character, and a great sense of humour and love for animals. There was a story of how one day he let his pet crocodile loose in Queen Victoria's study. ::) !

I have a photo of little Waldemar that was taken shortly before his death in 1879. I've sent it to the Forum Admin if he might kindly post it here.

Elisa
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on May 29, 2004, 12:28:47 PM
Salway's book also mentions a few lines about little Sigismund+

"Both parents doted on this young prince, who seemed so much more clever and intelligent that their other children. Vicky was even convinved he would come to resemble her beloved father.. Sigismund died from meningitis aged 21 months.."

"The memory of Sigismund's death was to haunt Vicky for the rest of her life"

(Pg 21)

+
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on June 03, 2004, 06:43:41 AM
A few more nice details i found about Waldemar :- +

He liked to hunt minerals and fossils on the Isle of Wight which were labelled and sent to the Swiss Cottage Museum by his mother, at Osborne. It appears they are still there.

:-)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Annie on July 19, 2004, 08:51:16 PM
Very nice pictures and info!

Where is Wilhelm here?

(http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/rich199.jpg)

I would think he is the tallest since he's the oldest, but his left arm looks normal length, which it wasn't. In most pics, like the one of him as a small child, they made an effort to hide the arm.

The story of his birth, and how Vickie almost died until the English doctor arrived, is one of the most interesting of the German royal family. Like Alexei at Spala, obits had been prepared for both she and the baby. But they were saved, though his arm was damaged in the delivery.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 19, 2004, 10:41:42 PM
My, what a sorry lot of waxworks these appear to be ! Nothing at all like the Romanov family, as has been mentioned before.
The "body language" alone speaks volumes of unhappiness.
"Cheers" seems singularly inappropriate, so instead-
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 20, 2004, 10:59:57 PM
I don't think it really shows unhappiness, some are just more comfortable in front of cameras and situations vary. Even QA looked different depending on whether she was posing in England or at home in Denmark. The Prussian WAS a very stiff one. Vicky and "Fritz" had one of the happiest royal marriages ever and a wonderful relationship with their younger children. By this point, I don't know how soured the relations were with Willy, Charly and Henry.
Anyway, geneaologically:
Victoria, Princess Royal of GB m. Frederick III of Germany
1. Wilhelm m. (1) Augusta Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein
   (2) Hermine of Reuss
    children (all from 1st marriage): Wilhelm (6 children), August Wilhelm (1 child), Oskar (4-5 children), Adalbert (no children), Joachim (1 child), Eitel Fritz (no children), Victoria Louise (5 children, including Queen of Greece)
2. Charlotte m. Bernard of Saxe-Meiningen
  1 child: Feodora m. Prince of Reuss (no children)
3. Henry m. Irene of Hesse
   3 children: Waldemar (no children), Sigismund (2 children), Henry (died young, no children)
4. Victoria m. (1) Adolf of Schaumburg-Lippe (no children)
(2) Alexander Zubkoff (no children)
5. Sigismund (died young of meningitis, no children)
6. Sophie m. Constantine I of Greece
   6 children: George II (no children), Alexander I (one child, Queen of Yugoslavia), Paul I (3 children including Queen Sophia of Spain), Queen Helen of Romania (1 child, King of Romania), Irene , Duchess of Aosta (issue), Katherine, Lady Brandam (issue)
7. Waldemar (died young of diptheria, no children)
8. Margaret m. Frederick of Hesse-Cassel
 6 children (incl. 2 sets of twins) Richard, Wolfgang, Christopher (d. WW2, married to sister of Prince Philip, issue), Maximilian (died WW1 no children), Philip (2-3 children), ??. I think 2 died in WW1 and one in WW2?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 21, 2004, 03:54:40 AM
I do not disagree with one word you said GDElla, & I realize that the Prussian/German court was rather a burden.  Also, the fashions of the day...it just seems so sad to see them staring down at the floor like frightened mice!
But then again, that was a pretty strange family.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on July 21, 2004, 03:29:58 PM
Quote
My, what a sorry lot of waxworks these appear to be ! Nothing at all like the Romanov family, as has been mentioned before.
The "body language" alone speaks volumes of unhappiness.
"Cheers" seems singularly inappropriate, so instead-
Best,
Robert



Robert, it's not correct to speak this way about the Emperor and Empress Frederick! Public and private photos will naturally look very different. We must also remember that photos were also sometimes taken with "long exposure" and took some time to take, and that it was not usual to smile for "officials".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Annie on July 21, 2004, 10:18:02 PM
Grandduchessella, that was a great family tree! Are there years of birth and death for some of them? I think the Kaiser was 1859-1941.

I don't think it's that people were so miserable in those pics, but that in those days you had to keep perfectly still for 60 seconds for the picture to form. This was especially hard on little kids. In some of the old pics, you can see blurs where babies are kicking or shaking their arms.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2004, 01:34:12 AM
That's sort of what I meant by being unhappy. I would definitely NOT be if I had to stand still for repeated takings of photos (they seem to often be in a series) with a corset and a bunch of bored, grumpy children.  ;)

Let's see:
William II, German Emperor 27 JAN 1859-4 JUN 1941
(1) m. Augusta of Schleswig-Holstein 22 OCT 1858-11 APR 1921 (2) m. Hermine of Reuss 17 DEC 1887-7 AUG 1947
a) Crown Prince Wilhelm 1882-1951
b) Eitel Friedrich 1883-1942
c) Adalbert 1884-1948
d) August Wilhelm 1887-1949
e) Oskar 1888-1958
f) Joachim 1880-1920 (suicide)
g) Victoria Luise 1892-1980

Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen 1860-1919
m. Bernard of Saxe-Meiningen 1851-1928
a) Feodora 1879-194?  m. Prince of Reuss

Henry 1862-1929 m. Irene of Hesse 1866-1953
a) Waldemar 1889-1945 (longest lived hemophiliac of QV's descendants; died fleeing Soviets due to lack of blood transfusion) m. Calixta of Lippe 1895-1982
b) Sigismund 1896-1978 m. Charlotte of Saxe-Altenburg 1899-1989
c) Henry 1900-1904

Sigismund 1864-1866 (d. of meningitis)

Victoria 1866-1929 m. (1) Adolph of Schaumburg Lippe 1859-1916 (no children) m. (2) Alexander Zubkoff 1900-1936 (shady con man MUCH younger than her)

Waldemar 1868-1879 (d. of diptheria)

Sophie 1870-1932 m. Constantine I of Greece 1868-1923 (all 3 sons became King of Greece)

Margaret 1872-1954 m. Frederick Charles of Hesse-Cassel 1868-1940 (2 sets of twins--all boys; 2 sons died in WW1, 1 son died in WW2 as did 2 daughters-in-llaw)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Martyn on July 22, 2004, 08:16:07 AM
The photos are very posed becuase of the long exposure time required - this must have been quite hard to achieve with small children.
I have to agree with Robert about the clothing;I don't think however that you can pin the blame entirely on the current fashions.  I don't think that Vicky had any more idea about fashion than her mother and was unfortunate enough to be quite small.  Whereas Alix of Wales and even GD Alice always look quite elegant in the fashions of the 1860's and 1870's, Vicky didn't really have much of a chance even if she had been blessed with good taste.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2004, 08:46:33 PM
Vicky certainly became matronly quickly (having so many kids quickly will do that to a woman) but I think she was still an attractive woman. The dresses of certain periods certainly didn't suit her, but towards the '80s, the more streamlined look did. I remember seeing a painting of her around her marriage by Winterhalter that was just SO lovely. Granted, it's Winterhalter and he made everyone look good, but she was just so sweet and enchanting. She had on a lovely, soft dress and her hair done becomingly and such a sweet smile. Her niece Marie of Romania wrote of her beautiful smile and others have often commented on her beautiful eyes. I think she looked especially lovely in her later years with her white hair and bright blue eyes which remained clear until the end. And Fritz was such a handsome man. I usually don't like beards, but I did his. He was once described as a Lohengrin with his bearing and bright white outfit during QV's Jubilee.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2004, 08:49:47 PM
Thank you for the dates Ella!

I liked the 'hoop skirt' look of the 1860's more than the bustle look of the 1880's, but I think the problem with the hoop look was that it was beautiful in the southern belle look, like Scarlett, off the shoulders and dainty, but in the more matronly styles it took on a tank type of look. But she still looks nice.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2004, 09:08:23 PM
Here is a link to the painting:

http://www.kronberger-maler.de/victoria/photo_vicky1.html

Here she is wearing the "Scarlett" look but looks dainty and fresh. Just click on the image to enlarge.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Martyn on July 23, 2004, 03:38:03 AM
Thomas, let's not forget that the sepia and black and white photos are really very flattering on the whole.
I think that if one had seen Vicky, in life, in that toilette in the first photo the effect might have been less pleasing.  One shouldn't really compare her to Alix of Wales but in terms of fashion it is sometimes a little inevitable.  There are photos of Alix in rather dubious toilettes from the 1870's and 1880's but the saving grace is always Alix's height and superbly corsetted figure.
As I have said previously, Vicky was not blessed with the same height or figure and I think was less suited to the styles of the 1870's and 1880's.  I think that she does look well in the Winterhalter portrait which infuses her with romantic style; as Grandduchessella rightly points out, Winterhalter makes all his sitters look fantastic and he wasn't dubbed the arch flatterer of royalty for no good reason.
I think that Vicky possibly comes into her own again in her later years when the slightly more linear styles of the late 1890's relieve her figure of excess drapery and give her a simplicity that suits her character - for example in the photo of her in the hall at Friedrichshof.
In the first photo of Vicky that Thomas has posted, the most beautiful feature is not what she is wearing but her lovely expressive face - particularly her eyes and her slight enigmatic smile, truly lovely.
I don't think that Vicky 's taste in clothes is really an issue particularly as everyone loved her for her personality and intelligence and if she does look a little over-upholstered in some of her photos, it doesn't really stop me from admiring her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 26, 2004, 12:09:05 AM
If I remember correctly, Sigi died while Fritz was off at war which compounded Vicky's grief. He died pretty suddenly of meningitis. Waldy was indeed a great favorite of really the whole family. He died of diptheria not long after the Hessian tragedy. On March 24, 1879 Vicky wrote a quick note to QV noting the illness, which worsened quickly. On March 25, she wrote that 'the dear patient is not in an unsatisfactory state though he suffers much, poor dear, from all the acompanying wretched discomfort and pain. His tonsil is as large as a walnut, he can hardly swallow at all or shut his mouth'. Yet, Vicky goes on to chat about family business, perhaps confident in her nursing ability (shades of letters Alice wrote to QV). Yet, 2 days later he was dead.

Wilhelm writes fondly of him in his memoirs about how he was beloved by the whole family. He also held an all-night vigil at his coffin in the Friedrichskirche and wrote that 'our pain [was] deep and cruel beyond words'. Vicky's misery was compounded by a minister who publicly commented that his death was 'a trial sent by God to humiliate her hardened heart'. {how sweet and compassionate!  >:( } Vicky also wrote to QV on 10 April 1879: ' I as much hurt at Bismarck giving his enormous soiree...on the evening of our darling child's funeral. I will not say what I think of it.' Vicky sent to QV a Chinese dagger that Waldy always kept at his bedside for her to perhaps use as a letter opener which QV most appreciated and promised to have the date engraved on the blade.


Vicky did indeed regard him as the most promising of her sons, and, because of her closeness to her younger children as opposed to her older, particularly valued this son. She felt she had loss the opportunity to be close to Wilhelm and Henry due to her youth and immaturity when it came to standing up to the Prussian court and rested her hopes on this other son, much as she had done earlier with Sigi. She wrote to QV only about a month before he died that he 'is such a dear child. Although rather more spirited than is easy to manage, he is so trustworthy and honest and has such an open, fine, manly disposition. I shall feel it dreadfully when he goes to school, as he is my very own boy.' Upon Wilhelm's marriage not long after, she wrote that Wilhelm 'had never been so devoted to me as the one who died'.  I forget which one of them (probably Waldy) that she gave the highest of accolades--he reminded her of Prince Albert. Vicky also wrote to QV on 27 Mar 1879 'With trembling hand I write these few lines. Oh! how great and bitter this agony is words cannot say! My beloved darling, my sweet Waldie, the dearest and nicest and most promising of my boys is gone. He had such a fine, straightforward, noble, honest, courageous nature, was so much more gifted than his brothers'.

I know I have info on what Vicky wrote regarding Sigi--I'll have to dig around.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 26, 2004, 08:54:13 PM
Sigi had been the 1st of her children that Vicky had felt confident enough to take control over their upbringing and insisted (much to the Prussian court and QV's disgust) on nursing herself. This may have led to the increased bond that Vicky felt towards this child (who lived only 2 yrs) and led to her intense grief when he died. QV apparently wearied of Vicky's consuming grief and depression over Sigismund (hypocrisy alert!) informed her daughter that enough was enough - after all, Vicky had not lost her husband, she had lost her child.  It was nothing like losing the incomparable Albert. QV's grief was often the yardstick - no one grieved as she did, nor as profoundly. Vicky had been rocked (nearly to the point of breakdown) by Sigi's death, when her 2nd daughter Moretta was still a newborn.  Vicky had
found enormous contentment in Sigi, which allowed her to ignore the increasing stresses in her life, such as the constant slights her Prussian in-laws (especially her mother-in-law) enjoyed heaping on her, as well as Fritz's absences, which as much as Vicky understood as part of Fritz's position, she still dreaded.  Moretta's birth had been premature and the labour hard, when Fritz departed for the Austrian war.  The combination of a premature labour, Fritz's absence and her favourite son's death had almost completely overwhelmed Vicky.
Vicky fancied that Waldy, born two years after Sigi's death, not only resembled the late father she  worshipped, but had also inherited his many gifts and graces, which she found so lamentably lacking in her other children, especially her other sons (save Sigi.)
It does appear that this was not just fond hopes on Vicky's part; Waldy does seem to have been an exceptional child, and even his brother Wilhelm , acknowledged that Waldy was "special".Fritz and the Queen were unable to keep Vicky from suffering a
complete breakdown when Waldy died in 1879.  His death from diphtheria had been horrific, and Vicky had watched, helpless and frantic, as her beloved child suffocated.  It was too much for her to bear. Once again Queen Victoria exhorted her weeping, mourning
daughter to pull herself together, reminding her that she (Vicky) had lost a child, not a husband.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2004, 10:09:48 PM
Quote
)  Once again Queen Victoria exhorted her weeping, mourning
daughter to pull herself together, reminding her that she (Vicky) had lost a child, not a husband.


A child not a husband? :o I'm sorry but that is heartless. I think most people agree there is nothing more tragic than the loss of a child. How could she dismiss her heartbreak like that? I'm stunned. :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2004, 10:12:36 PM
I just thought of this tonight, sorry if I'm slow and someone already said it. Prince Henry of Prussia, and his wife Irene of Hesse, named their first 2 sons Sigismund and Waldemar, no doubt in honor of Henry's missed lost little brothers  :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 27, 2004, 03:22:01 PM
It does seem heartless, doesn't it? QV probably had more sympathy by the end of her life when she had lost 3 of her children (Alice, Leopold, Alfred) but at the time, NOTHING could compare to the loss of Albert (to her). Albert had always come before the children, so maybe QV couldn't understand grieving a child more than a husband? It does seem sweet that H&I named their 2 boys for their lost uncles. I think Henry probably had more sensitivity than he's given credit for (though he did have a wicked temper!).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: princessalice on August 21, 2004, 09:57:19 PM
well, you know, no one could grieve like Q. Victoria, she turned it into an art form!!!  As for the Queen's remarks that "one child's loss can compare to that of a husband..."  well, I don't know that she ever realized, in that time, how blessed she was not to lose one child in 9 in infancy or little childhood...that was so rare to royal and commoner alike!

Sigismund has always been a special little soul to me, as is his mother.  She was totally devastated when she lost him...I can't imagine losing one so young, i have lost 4 through miscarriage, which is horrible enough....

I do have one postcard of Vicky and her family, while Sigi was still alive, he was a precious little fellow!  And, a small CDV of the family, too.  

then, when they later lost Waldemar.....that was a doubly cruel blow to her, i believe, for, compared to her other sons, i believe she had special hopes for this little boy....
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: AGRBear on August 21, 2004, 11:25:10 PM
This is what "Vicky" [Empress Fredrick] wrote to her mother on 19 June 1866 after Sigismond's death:

"Your suffering child turns to you in her grief, sure to find sympathy from so tender a heart, so versed in sorrow.  The hand of Providence is heavy upon me.  I have to bear this awful trial alone, without my poor Fritz.  My little darling graciously lent me for a short time, to be my pride, my joy, my hope, is gone, gone where my passionate devotion cannot follow, from where my love cannot recall him!...

Found on page 60   LETTERS OF THE EMPRESS FREDERICK  edited by Sir Frederick Ponsonby....  Ed. 1928

Under the Hohenzollern - Empress Fredrik are more photographs and I've created a web site that shows the Empress home Friederichshof [Kronberg Castle-Hotel] which my husband and I visited some years ago.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: AGRBear on August 22, 2004, 07:42:50 PM
LETTERS OF THE EMPRESS FREDERICK:  p. 173 "...Of all her children the one whose health gave her the most anxiety, and who in turn perhaps received the greatest amount of maternal love, was her fouth son, the little Prince Waldemar.  In spite of all her devotion, the little ten-year-old Prince sickened and died....  It was on the morning of March 27 that Queen Victory, then in Paris.... received a telegram from her daughter which ran:  'Have just taken a last look at the beloved child.  He expired at half-past three this morning from paralysis of the heart.  Your broken hearted daughter, Victoria.' ." The year was 1879.

The death of children is always so very sad.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: princessalice on August 22, 2004, 08:54:22 PM
bear, you are right, the death of any child is a tragedy.  my little goddaughter died 20 years ago in Texas in a swimming accident.  her folks have never really been the same.  and, back when Vicky was alive, i'm sure it was most horrible to watch a beloved child sicken and know there was really nothing that could be done.  i lost my own Mama 10 yrs ago, basically there was nothing medical that could be done to save her life.  it is a terrible, hopeless feeling.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Jim1026 on August 26, 2004, 03:26:21 PM
 :-/I have found all kinds of pics of the tomb of Friederich
III and Empress Victoria but is there any place where
you can find pics of Waldemar and Sigismund's tomb?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Arleen on October 28, 2004, 01:48:56 PM
I know that Empress Frederick started a school for young ladies in Charlottenburg sometime in the late 1880 or 90ties.  Can anyone help me out with ANY information about this school?       ..Arleen  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 31, 2004, 12:31:02 PM
I've read that Frederick was imensely popular in England; that during the Jubilee of QV, Frederick was more enthusiasitically cheered by the crowds than any other royal than QV herself.
What was his popularity a result of? He had a dashing and handsome and large physical appearance, as well as a kind and caring personality and political point of view, but what drove the British to endear him so?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 31, 2004, 12:44:13 PM
I really think it was a combination of many things. He had married 'their' Princess Royal and had been a part of the extended family for 30 years at that point--longer than any of the other in-laws. While all the details of his illness weren't known, it was known that he'd been bravely battling an illness and thus his strong, manly appearance riding in the parade won the admiration of many. Plus, he apparently cut a mighty dashing figure in his white uniform with the silver breastplate and helmet gleaming in the sun. A Lohengrin come to life.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 31, 2004, 03:22:42 PM
He was indeed a special man from all accounts. His marriage to Vicky was a match not only made in Heaven, but on earth as well in terms of their potential to create essentially an EU 100 years before it was actually realized. The "what if's" had his reign been long, at least lasting into the early 20th century, are immeasureable.

Frederick is one of the few who is photographed with a smile or grin on his face. His endearing nature seems to have been captured on film.

Anyone with rare photos of the man?

Did any of his children write biographies of their father?

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 31, 2004, 06:45:38 PM
Fritz is a favorite of mine. He just seems like such a gentleman, so brave and good to his family. A real knight in shining armor in my opinion! I don't believe any of his children wrote a biogarphy of him, but 2 of his children did write autobiographies--Willy and Victoria "Moretta." I've never read Willy's, so I'm not sure what he has to say about his father, but I do have Moretta's and here's what she has to say about him...

Describing an annual party for the local children of Bornstadt: "Another race was one I think in England is called a sack race. My father would enter very much into the fun of the thing. He was of a most friendly disposition--kindly and sympathetic, very ready for a joke and thoroughly interested in all that was going on. At these parties he would stand by, chatting to the children and chaffing them. They in their turn were devoted to him, and were always eager to talk to him."

"I remember the village of Eiche, which was close by the Neue Palais. One afternoon a fire broke out, burning down many of the cottages. My father, who had hastened there when the fire started, never left the village until the firemen had finished their work. All the while the fire raged, and it was a big one, my father tried to cheer the homeless villagers, promising to build new homes for them. Of course he kept his word, as he invariably did. It was for these simple great qualities that my father was so much beloved by his people, who gave him the never-to-be-forgotten name of "unser Fritz" (our Fritz), a name by which he is known this very day. In addition to all this, he was uncommonly handsome, very tall, well built and "every inch a king."

When Fritz's father Kaiser Wilhelm I died: "My father was seated in the garden when the news came, and he almost fainted with the shock. None of us can ever know what his feelings were at the time. His father, whom he had always dearly loved and respected, had passed away and he had not been with him: he himself was under sentence of death, he was voiceless, and now he was Emperor--Emperor Frederick III. The bitterness, the irony and the sadness of it all was overwhelming.
 The first thing my father did on entering the house was to fetch his Order of the Black Eagle and pin it on my mother's shoulder. It was a moment I shall never forget, He was bestowing on his beloved wife the highest German order that could ever be bestowed: he was making her Queen of Prussia and German Empress.
 He then turned to Sir Morell Mackenzie, who had been one of the many physicians attending him, and wrote on a piece of paper: "I thank you for having made me live long enough to recompense the valiant courage of my wife.''

:'(

Another thing that always touches me is the letter that Bertie Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) wrote to his son George after Fritz's death...'Try, my dear George, never to forget Uncle Fritz. He was one of the finest and noblest characters ever known; if he had a fault he was too good for this world.'

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 31, 2004, 06:55:17 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/FRITZanddaughters.jpg)
My very favorite picture of Fritz, holding his daughters Mossy and Sophie. I think this picture really encapsulates Fritz's character.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/ICE.jpg)
Perhaps a rarer picture of Fritz (along with his daughter Charlotte standing next to him, and Vicky in front of her) and party out ice skating!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 31, 2004, 07:36:32 PM
If anyone's interested, I've found more from Moretta's book, about Fritz near the end of his life...

"His fortitude was amazing. He would spend hours every day in dealing with state matters, reading reports and discussing Cabinet affairs with Prince Bismark. He made some army changes and took steps to erect buildings, and did what he could to encourage liberal ideas. He suffered terribly, but only when he was away from official eyes would he make signs for a little physical relief to be administered to him, slight only as it could be.
My last birthday, in the life-time of my father, occurred then, on the 12th of April. Papa expressed the wish that I should lunch with him in his room, and I was pleased beyond measure. I had the surprise, moreover, of receiving a beautiful diamond necklace which is still one of my most cherished possessions.
 One event cheered these dark days, and that was the visit of Queen Victoria and her daughter, my Aunt Beatrice, with Prince Henry of Battenberg. ...Papa loved having his mother-in-law near him. Often when he was too ill to get up she would sit at his bedside talking to him. They seemed to understand one another, and their ideas on state affairs seemed to meet with mutual admiration. ...I remember well how my dear grandmother prayed to God for his salvation and for Divine help. The leave taking between the two was the most pathetic moment of all my life, save perhaps the moments of the death of my own parents and husband. ...The fourteenth of June was my sister Sophie's eighteenth birthday. My father wrote on a piece of paper that he wished us to go to the Pfaueninsel to celebrate the day and amuse Sophie. None of us could bear even the thought of going and we told him that, if he did not mind, all of us, including the birthday child, would be far happier staying with him. He allowed us to stay. For some hours now he had been unable to take nourishment, That same evening he grew worse. Mamma and I could not bring ourselves to leave him, so we decided to remain up all night in the sitting room next to his bedroom. After I had watched with Mamma for the greater part of the night, she urged me to take some rest; so I reluctantly retired, but had scarcely been a minute in my bedroom when there came a knock at my door. The nurse was there with an urgent message from my mother that said I should come back at once. I went to her immediately, shaking with fear. We had to be very cautions in going in and out lest we startled our darling patient, who was already making signs to us, inquiring why we had not gone to bed. About six in the morning we realized that he was sinking. I gave him a little orange-juice, a drink he liked very much, and it seemed to refresh him. Mamma then told me to fetch my brother William, who had been staying at the palace for the night, and by the time I returned with him, the rest of the family had gathered around.
 What we had anticipated, and so greatly feared, now quickly came. He tried to write a few words of love to us, but the effort was too much. He was raised up in bed, and looking at us with tenderness in his dear beautiful blue eyes, he seemed to bless us all. The end was peaceful; the noblest and never-to-be-forgotten Soverign and the best of fathers was taken from us and his eyes were closed forever."


Does anyone ever feel like they work as a typist/researcher for the AP? ;) No, I like sharing any information and pictures I may have with people, because I realize not everyone has access to these old books, etc.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 31, 2004, 09:12:21 PM
I always loved that photo of Fritz too. Again, from CZ's wondeful book!

This is one of my favorites. I was lucky enough to get this print over 10 yrs ago and it hangs on my wall. It's a double-page spread.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/10039575a.jpg)

This is Fritz at the time of the Jubilee (the white uniform, etc...)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/10083085a.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 01, 2004, 09:06:53 AM
What a man. In retrospect, perhaps the single most key figure in the last 125 years of history if, having either come to the throne earlier or lived longer, would have created a very different set of circumstances and thus leading Europe away from the core elements causing WWI and WWII.

In addition to his utterly wonderful personal traits, he seems to have been a very competent leader, obviously endorsed by the English completely and his military leadership is also classic. He led his own troops into battle (in particular the Austrian war), quite uncommon after Napoleon, and since Fritz, I am not aware of another figure doing so.

I did not know QV came to visit Fritz and Vicky after their becoming Kaiser and Kaiserin. Was this a large state visit or a quiet family visit specifically resulting from his deteriorating health?

He is definitely a favorite of mine, and once again, the only one who shows his smile and grin in photos. This alone separates him from all others, and ever so endearing.

By the by, his statue in the platz next to NassauerHof hotel in Wiesbaden is definitely a stopping point.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 01, 2004, 10:18:33 AM
Fritz has always been one of my favorites of male royals. His marriage to Vicky is definitely one of the great royal romances. Her letters after his death are just heart-rending. QV's visit was strictly a private one. She was met at the station by some of her grandchildren but without any great pomp. No one would've been up to it, plus the court was in mourning for William I still. I think she had even told Vicky this, that she just wanted a quiet visit with her dear SIL and a chance to say goodbye. I have a sketch of her arrival, I'll have to dig it out and scan it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 01, 2004, 12:26:32 PM
The engagement day picture is indeed a great one. Even in such a pose, his pleasing demeanor and clearly warm and engaging facial expression is overwhelmingly unique. I hope to see GrandduchessElla's sketches of QV's arrival in Berlin.

How did Fritz get so unlucky as to have gotten throat cancer in the first place? Was cancer a family trait? Did he smoke cigars?

I was in the room at the Neues Palais in which Fritz passed away. The room has been kept as a memorial. It is so simple with the letter F inlaid on the floor at the foot of his bed. It was moving to be in the same spot where such history took place.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: James_Davidov on November 01, 2004, 07:28:52 PM
I have no actual info on the school, but in "The royal families of Europe", by Geoffrey Hindley (which is a great, friendly formatted book) I remember a picture of the Empress at a girls school, I noted it because info on her is so sparse, but because i thought it was very modern-royal of her to be visiting schools.

"In Berlin, the Empress Friedrich established schools for the higher education of girls and for nurses' training. She patronized the arts and learning, becoming one of the organizers of the 1872 Industrial Art Exhibition.
" - thats from - http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Victoria,_Princess_Royal.

thats all i could find:)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 01, 2004, 07:53:04 PM
Oh the other engagment photo of the whole family is definatly better. I just like the fact that Lenchen and Louise are in this one.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 01, 2004, 10:53:51 PM
Quote
The engagement day picture is indeed a great one. Even in such a pose, his pleasing demeanor and clearly warm and engaging facial expression is overwhelmingly unique. I hope to see GrandduchessElla's sketches of QV's arrival in Berlin.

How did Fritz get so unlucky as to have gotten throat cancer in the first place? Was cancer a family trait? Did he smoke cigars?


I think he may have smoked cigarettes. I thought I had somewhere a CDV image of Fritz and Bertie together taken around the latter's wedding where they have a cigarette. Not sure though.  ???  It certainly wasn't uncommon back then to smoke cigarettes, but I don't think I've ever heard of him smoking cigars. You're going to have me running back and forth to my books.  :)  

Here's the scan of QV's arrival. She's accompanied by William and in the presence of Vicky, Dona, Charly & Bernard, Moretta, Sophie & Mossy:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/File0582.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 02, 2004, 10:20:31 AM
Thanks so much for the sketch. Is Vicky the 7th person from the left (including the guard with his back to us)? Dona must be 5th. Interesting how QV is on arm of W and Vicky, who should be the center of attention is off to the side, in a way. I think at this moment, and for weeks earlier, W was being very hostile to Vicky and quite unruly.
QV looks very nice, doesn't she? The look on her face is so much more soft than in most representations of her persona. Here she looks kindly, sublime, gentle, and very grandmother-ish.
The officer in the foreground is saluting with his left hand. Is that a particular protocol of the Kaiser's guard?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 02, 2004, 10:26:47 AM
The Empress was indeed very committed to ensuring nursing and nurse training was attended to. She really is a major initial force in public health, much of her ideas being adopted globally. In fact, she was a big influence on Bismarck and her son William to create really the first social welfare program in the world. They estasblished a process by which the German elderly would be taken care of by public funds in terms of their health care needs, food, and housing. But, primarily health care. Who knows what other good things Vicky and her dear husband Fritz may have accomplished had they both lived until the 1920s?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 02, 2004, 10:28:22 AM
Vicky also personally funded the building of churches. There is a wonderful church and school in Kronberg that she built for the town when she established her residence there in the early 1890s.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on November 02, 2004, 11:00:12 AM
Thank you HerrKaiser for the information about the Empress Frederick's funding of churches, i didn't know about the one at Kronberg!  :)
In the Parish Church at Windsor there is information on the Empress's laying the foundation stone for a church in Windsor just down the road, and a photograph. I have never managed to find this church, as it is situated down a few winding streets. But if anyone should like the details of it, i'd be happy to try and find out more, inc. the dates of when she founded it, etc.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Arleen on November 04, 2004, 02:50:02 PM
Thanks to all of you for your information!  James, I am going to try and find that book....you see my grandmother went to a school of the Empress, she use to tell me about it when I was small, she use to show me ballet steps she learned there and how one must eat at the table and etc.  It was a highlight of her life.  Her grandfather was a General von Karrass who had a leg cut off in a war.  I have his picture (standing on his wooden leg from 1880) it is the only thing she saved when she came to America in 1909.  She has been dead for many years and I am just left with memories of her excitment and joy in talking about the Empress wonderful school.  Apparently the Empress came many times to visit and the girls adored her.         ..Arleen
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on November 04, 2004, 09:03:24 PM
Kaiser Friedrich III's throat cancer stemmed from smoking.  Had better care been given to him, the Kaiser may have survived this illness, and one can only but dream of how different the history of Europe, ney the World, would have been...alas other horrors were rained on humanity instead.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 04, 2004, 11:34:29 PM
Quote
Kaiser Friedrich III's throat cancer stemmed from smoking.  Had better care been given to him, the Kaiser may have survived this illness, and one can only but dream of how different the history of Europe, ney the World, would have been...alas other horrors were rained on humanity instead.

Arturo Beéche


I think this habit did in George V and George VI. I know the latter had to have part of a lung removed. I'm sure it contributed to many other royal deaths either because of cancer, heart trouble or respiratory failure. There are quite a few photos of GV with a cigarette in hand--including a quite atmospheric one of him surrounded by a cloud of smoke. (Very reminiscent of Now Voyager where Bette Davis & Paul Henreid declare their undying love through this hazy cloud. Looking at it through modern eyes and decades of Surgeon General's warnings, it can somewhat diminish the romance of the scene.  :) )

Some more photos of Fritz:
wedding sketch:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/0a_1VickyandFritz.jpg)
looking quite the handsome German prince
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/bark34a.jpg)
1870s costume ball:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/wern129.jpg)
1855:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/fritzsep18551.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 04, 2004, 11:36:57 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/ebay44051.jpg)
with Wilhelm:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/img074.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/rich52.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 05, 2004, 02:22:20 AM
Grandduchessella, the one you posted of Fritz with the baby on his knee, the baby is actually Charly, not Willy. Remember "the cap" discussion we had in the Eddy thread? ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Karentje on November 05, 2004, 03:58:21 AM
Quote
Kaiser Friedrich III's throat cancer stemmed from smoking.  Had better care been given to him, the Kaiser may have survived this illness, and one can only but dream of how different the history of Europe, ney the World, would have been...alas other horrors were rained on humanity instead.

Arturo Beéche


I never knew Fritz's illness was due to smoking?! And did they have the knowledge back then to treat him properly? Then why wasn't he given the right care?
How different things would have been if dearest Vicky and darling Fritz could have ruled Germany longer! and sooner!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 05, 2004, 04:45:20 AM
Fritz first noticed a hoarseness in his voice that wouldn't go away, and when the doctors examined him they found a small growth on his vocal chord. They cauterized it and for awhile he was better, but it grew back. There was some confusion as to wether it was cancer. His doctors (English, brought in by Vicky, and German) could not agree on a treatment, and so while they were fighting over what was best for Fritz, he wasn't getting the care he needed. I think the English doctor wanted to perform a drastic operation which could have saved Fritz's life, but would have made him unable to speak above a whisper. The German doctors wouldn't agree because "Who would want a Kaiser who couldn't speak?" Sad, I know. Vicky tried to keep the seriousness of his illness from Fritz, but near the end he must have realised. It wore her out enormously, but she always kept a brave face for him, never allowing him to see her break down. Imagine seeing the love of your life slowly being taken away from you and there's nothing you can do. :'( Vicky always believed the English doctor (Morell Mackenzie) did all he could, but there are still so many doubts and disagreements about the "treatments" Fritz was given.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 05, 2004, 08:57:48 AM
I always loved the story about Bertie and Herbert Bismark (Otto von Bismark's son). At Henry & Irene's wedding, when Fritz was so badly ill, he garnered much praise for appearing at the wedding dressed in full regalia. Many sad how brave he was. HB, on the other hand, remarked that since Fritz couldn't speak at that point that a Kaiser who couldn't speak shouldn't be allowed to rule. And he said this to Bertie! Bertie later wrote to QV that the only thing that kept him from throwing him bodily out (which I would've loved to have seen!) was the thought of German/English relations. Go Bertie!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Karentje on November 05, 2004, 09:35:37 AM
I hadn't heard that story before! Thumbs up for Bertie, what self-control that must have cost!! Bertie's my favourite among all the royal men, this story once again confirms my feelings :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 05, 2004, 09:37:17 AM
The tragedy of Fritz's illness is indeed so, so sad. Bad enough to lose any person to untimely disease, but in his case, it is nearly undeniably true that 20th century history would be extremely different had Fritz lived and ruled until the 1900s.
However, the docs who treated him probably could not have extended his life too long even had they done the more drastic surgery. Cancers in the neck are among the worse and with no treatment other than cutting, his prognosis was not good. I have always wondered how they were sure it was cancer in the first place. This was a very undiagnosed disease until well into the 20th century, I think.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 05, 2004, 10:13:00 AM
Oh I think the baby is Willy. It is identified as Willy in two different places and if you look closely at it's face you can see that it, well it's Willy. I just looks like him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 05, 2004, 10:14:40 AM
Oh Bertie was such a sweetheart. He is most deffinatly my favorite of the Queen's sons.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 05, 2004, 11:01:33 AM
Quote
Posted by: PrinceEddy1864 Oh I think the baby is Willy. It is identified as Willy in two different places and if you look closely at it's face you can see that it, well it's Willy. I just looks like him.


As stated in the Eddy post, the baby in the cap is often misidentified as Willy. The picture GDElla posted of Fritz with the baby on his knee was obviously taken on the day the famous painting (on the cover of Dearest Vicky Darling Fritz, and which I posted in the Eddy thread) was made. Or the painting was based on a photo taken that day. The cap is ivory colored with pink flowers, now I know the Victorians dressed their little boys in dresses, but a cap with pink rosebuds???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 06, 2004, 02:00:15 PM
Fritz' illness, especially if it was cancer, was not easy to diagnose at that time. Often, patients died of "consumption" when in fact they may have had cancer. And some cancer patients may not have had it. Usually, cigarette smoking relates to lung problems; pip and cigar smoking causes more of the mouth and throat problems. Poor Fritz. He should have been spared to live longer.

Is there any evidence of US President Grover Cleveland expressing attitudes and feelings about Frederick? It seems with what Germany at large felt about the hopeful future with Fritz as Kaiser, the U.S. government would have embraced him completely.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 06, 2004, 02:43:10 PM
He did express sympathies, I believe. When I had free access to the Times site and prowled around so much (no longer available  >:( ) I printed out articles re: Fritz's death and almost every major nation expressed condolences. I have 2000+ I printed out ( :-/ ) so it may take awhile to go through them to check. (Good thing the access was free because I spent $60 in printer cartridges & paper!)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 06, 2004, 05:12:28 PM
Appreciate seeing such headlines indeed. I also recall Fritz health started to majorly deteriorate while he and Vicky were vacationing in San Remo. San Remo was the elite, "jet set" spot for the royals and priveleged in the late 19th century. Did they travel with a huge entourage or fairly small? Was their residence in San Remo their own palace or a rented place? Is it still there?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 07:27:02 AM
I'm wondering why we see so few pictures of Vicky's children as babies. (Excepting of course Willy and Charlotte) You'd think there would especially be more of Waldemar, Sophie and Mossy, since these were the children she was closest to, and nursed herself. Pictures of the girls as toddlers are quite common--why not as babies? Can anyone shed some light on this? Or better still...does anyone have any good pictures to share? ...Pleeease! :)




Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Ksenia on November 07, 2004, 07:35:13 AM
Hi Alicky ! In the book "Queen Victoria's Family a Centry of Photographs 1840-1940", written by Charlotte Zeepvat, there are some photographs of Vickys children  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 07:40:54 AM
Hi Ksenia, welcome! It's always nice to see someone new! :D Yes, I have that book, and it is excellent, but I'm looking for pictures of the younger children as babies, and I've only found ones of them as toddlers.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Ksenia on November 07, 2004, 07:48:15 AM
Thank you Alicky, for your kind welcome !  :D Yes it is a great book ! I have been looking through the books I have on Vicky - but your right, I can't seem to find hardly any photographs of Waldemer, sophie or Mossy (as you said, she was closer to her younger children) Yes, I would love to see some photographs of them too ! :)
Ps. I look forward to talking to you Alicky  ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2004, 12:34:30 PM
Maybe they suffered from that still-common malady--'latter children syndrome'. It's main symptom is the lack of photos and other images and is characterized by the respective position in the family birth pecking order.  :)  In other words, later children tend to get the bum's rush when it comes to photos--the 1st child gets TONS done, little less for #2, by the time you're down to #6, 7 or 8 it's all old hat.  :)  The Waldy picture is cute--I have one from the opposite angle that was published, along with 2 others when he's older, in a magazine upon Waldy's death.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 02:18:32 PM
These were the youngest images I could find of the younger children...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/Vickymorettacdv.jpg)
Vicky and Moretta! I own this cdv!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/4daughters.jpg)
Sophie and Mossy look quite young in this one!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/vickyandlittlemossy.jpg)
Vicky and little Mossy! (Another one in my collection)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/waldy.jpg)
Waldy! More toddler here than baby, but still worth posting anyway!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 07, 2004, 03:16:01 PM
OK great pics Alicky. The one of the four girls is in my opinion one of the best ever taken of any of Vicky's kids. The cabinet card went for sale on ebay awhile ago. As you can imagine it pulled in quite a pretty penny. The last two you posted I have never seen before, you say you own a copy of the one with Vicky and Mossy, is it a carte or cabinet? Where did the one of Waldy come from as well?
My take on the absence of photos of the younger ones is; they were taken but were circulated less among the public at the time they were taken. They were not as mass produced or published in journals and news papers of the day. This is probably because, esp. in the case of Vicky and Fritz's kids, their older syblings were seen as being more important to the nation and it's people. So because of this we seekers today have less access to the smaller amount of photos that do still exist. They appear less in books and modern publications for this reason too. I know I am kind of stating the obvious. But whatever. We can always keep looking though.
             
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 05:06:38 PM
  I think your theories are correct Eddy. Still, I would have thought that maybe Sophie would have had more published of her, since she became Queen of Greece and all. Oh well...you're right, we'll have to keep on looking!
 Yes, I own cdvs of those images. I WISH I owned an original of the 4 girls, but I did tryto bid on the cabinet photo when it came up on Ebay! ;) The pic of Waldy that I posted came from the book Royal Cabinet Portraits.
 Maybe we should just change this thread to "Pictures of Vicky's Children As Youngsters", because I'm thinking of some I'd like to post! I'm going to go take a look for some now!
 By the way, I love that one of Moretta and Sophie!
 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 05:30:35 PM
Little Charly...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/charly.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/charly2.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2004, 06:24:45 PM
Quote
Post them ella, if you can. Please


Well, Alicky posted one of them of Waldemar (with the little white jacket). The others I'll have to dig around for as I don't know where I saved them right now. I finally got a copy of the cdv of Vicky & Moretta that Alicky posted after SOMEONE (ahem) outbid me on ebay!  ;) There's another one of the same sitting where Moretta's holding onto Vicky.  I still think there may not have been as many taken--plus, even though Sophie became Queen, there's still a shocking lack of info and photos of her floating around.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2004, 06:32:46 PM
Yeah, the NPG can be messed up on older photos. I've come across 2 more photos of Willy in that darn cap so it must've at least been passed around unless ALL the photos are mis-labelled. It's hard when boys dressed like girls back then.

Here's one:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/Crown20Princess20Ferderick20and20Prince20William201859.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 06:37:26 PM
Quote
Posted by: grandduchessella I finally got a copy of the cdv of Vicky & Moretta that Alicky posted after SOMEONE (ahem) outbid me on ebay!

Don't know what you mean, Grandduchessella! ::)

Quote
Posted by: grandduchessella Yeah the NPG can be messed up on older photos. I've come across 2 more photos of Willy in that darn cap


LOL! That cap is going to come back to haunt us!!!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Angie_H on December 04, 2004, 02:13:26 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/WilhelmCharlotte1863.jpg) Charlotte & Wilhelm

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/WilhelmCharlotteHenry1866.jpg) Wilhelm, Charlotte & Henry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Angie_H on December 04, 2004, 02:32:36 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/VickyWillyonhorseback1863_1.jpg) Vicky & Willy on horseback
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on December 04, 2004, 03:06:00 PM
Good photos Angie. Thanks for posting them. The first one is the one I reffered to earlier on this thread. It is the third I have seen of Charly at that sitting.  I know it appears in one of Willy's bios. Is that were you got it? The second one you posted is one I have always loved of the three children at the window (at least I always thought it looked like a window). I love the way Willy looks. That one is in "Royal Children" which may or may not be were you got it from.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on December 04, 2004, 04:19:26 PM
ella it is from the Debrett's Book of Royal Children: from Queen Victoria to Prince William by Charles Kidd and Patrick Montague-Smith. I got ot off ebay like a year ago but I think it has a pretty good availability.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Arleen on December 09, 2004, 02:53:09 PM
This is so exciting to me, many many thanks.  I have no idea where Friedenshof is in relation to Charlottenburg which is where her family home was, or even exactly WHERE her school was located, but I presume it was close by her home.
Joanna or one of the wonderful researchers on this site, would one of you look up this AUGUSTA SCHOOL and see if anything is available about it??
At any rate thank you so much for this picture......one of these beautiful little girls could have been my grandmother!!
Arleen
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 09, 2004, 08:55:44 PM
Quote
At any rate thank you so much for this picture......one of these beautiful little girls could have been my grandmother!!


Oh wow!  Your grandmother met Vicky before??
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 09, 2004, 10:29:31 PM
I tried googling around for Augusta Schule (figuring any info would be in German) and this is all I found of such a school at that time period. (There was some info re: schools with that name still in existence but I don't know enough to tell how old they were) I hope some of this is relevant--maybe our German natives here would know more:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/081.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/Zd1211.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/2093291.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 10, 2004, 02:46:04 AM
I searched around too and the one that comes up most often is the one called Kaiserin Augusta School in Cologne.   I don't think thats the one.  

I think the school you are looking for is Viktoria Schule in Kronberg-Schonberg which was established in 1890s.  The Kaiserin Friedrich website mentions it.   It is in German though http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/walsh.html.  (http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/walsh.html.).   Vicky lived in Kronberg in her later years.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 10, 2004, 03:25:47 AM
Also from the Kaiserin Friedrich website:  

THE Crown Prince and Princess now looked forward to celebrating their silver wedding on January 25, 1883... Preparations for commemorating the anniversary had been made a year before, and money was being collected for various presentations, when it was intimated that the Crown Prince and Princess wished the subscriptions to be devoted to public and philanthropic objects.  The money was distributed among the various charities with which the Crown Prince and Princess were connected, and some of which they had themselves founded...the Victoria School for the training of nurses; and the Victoria Foundation for the training of young girls in domestic and industrial work.

Seems like there are at least 2 Victoria Schools...one in Kronberg and the other in Berlin.  Not sure if the one in Berlin still exists or if it still has the same name.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Arleen on December 10, 2004, 12:42:10 PM
Thank you eveyone so very much!
..Arleen
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 09, 2005, 11:46:27 PM
Friedrich Wilhelm Victor Albert (Kaiser Wilhelm II) 'Willy'
b. 27 Jan 1859
d. 4 Jun 1941
m.(1) 27 Feb 1881 Augusta Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein (2) 5 Nov 1922 Hermine of Reuss
children (all by 1st marriage)
Wilhelm (Crown Prince), Eitel Friedrich (Eitel Fritz), Adalbert, August Wilhelm (Auwi), Oskar,  Joachim, Victoria Louise

Victoria Elisabeth Augusta Charlotte 'Charly' 'Ditta'
b. 24 Jul 1860
d. 1 Oct 1919
m. 18 Feb 1878 Bernhard III, Duke of Saxe-Meiningen
child: Feodora

Albert Wilhelm Heinrich 'Henry'
b. 14 Aug 1862
d. 20 Apr 1929
m. 24 May 1888 Irene of Hesse
children:
Waldemar, Henry, Sigismund

Franz Friedrich Sigismund 'Siggie'
b. 15 Sep 1864 d. 18 Jun 1866 (of meningitis)

Friederike Wilhelmine Amalie Victoria 'Moretta'
b. 12 Apr 1866
d. 13 Nov 1929
m. (1) 19 Nov 1890 Adolf of Schaumburg-Lippe (2) 21 Nov 1927 Alexander Zoubkov (divorce proceedings were underway when she died)

Joachim Friedrich Ernst Waldemar 'Waldie'
b. 10 Feb 1868 d. 27 Mar 1879 (of diptheria only a few months after his Aunt Alice and cousin May succumbed)

Sophie Dorothea Ulrike Alice 'Sossy'
b. 14 Jun 1870
d. 13 Jan 1932
m. 27 Oct 1889 Constantine I of Greece
children:
George I, Alexander I, Helen , Paul I, Irene, Catherine

Margaret Beatrice Feodora "Mossy"
b. 22 Apr 1872
d. 22 Jan 1954
m.25 Jan 1893 Friedrich Karl, Landgrave of Hesse
children:
(not sure of exact order) Wolfgang, Maximilian, Richard, Philip, Christopher, Friedrich

facts:
Wilhelm and Charlotte were the only grandchildren Prince Albert lived to see

Charlotte was the 1st of the grandchildren of QV to marry and the 1st to have a child. If Feo had had children QV would've been a great-great-grandmother before she died in 1901.

2 of Henry's children (Waldemar and Henry) were hemophiliacs (through his marriage to another grandchild Irene of Hesse)

Henry & Irene were the 1st of 2 pairs of grandchildren to marry (the other pair being Ernst of Hesse and Victoria of Coburg)

2 of Vicky's children (Wilhelm and Sophie) occupied thrones (Germany and Greece)

Mossy was the only grandchild to produce a set of twins (and she did it twice!)

Mossy lost 2 sons in WW1 and 1 in WW2 (along w/2 daughters in law)

all of Sophie's sons became Kings of Greece and her daughter Queen of Romania

Wilhelm's daughter Victoria Louise became mother-in-law to Sophie's son Paul (when he married VL's daughter Friedrike)

Sophie's son George and her daughter Helen married siblings (also great-grandchildren of QV) Carol II and Elizabeth of Romania

Mossy's son married Marie Alexandra of Baden, daughter of Mossy's former (unrequited) love Max Baden

Mossy's son was Prince Philip's brother-in-law (through his sister Sophie)








Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovFan on April 10, 2005, 02:49:45 PM
Whoa!  :o There's alot of family ties in there! lol...thanks for the info. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 17, 2006, 05:32:47 PM
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/9ce662e6.jpg)

As testament to the endearing love the German people had for Fritz, this plaque on his memorial statue in Wiesbaden says, "Our Kaiser with love and gratitude".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 18, 2006, 09:14:44 AM

Also, the warm endearment of "Our Fritz" was very popular among his troops during the Austrian, Danish and French wars. His men honored him as a true, in battle leader and followed him with pride and great desire. Fritz was, I think, the last or one of the last, heads of state (heir) to actually go into battle with his men.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 18, 2006, 06:01:34 PM


Fritz was indeed greatly beloved by his troops. Vicky wrote to QV about it several times and how his troops were among the best, not just in skill but in character, in Prussia. Even allowing for some wifely pride, all evidence bears this out.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Grand Duke on January 22, 2006, 12:12:34 PM
I found this on-line article about the illness and death of Frederick III:

AN IMPERIAL TRAGEDY: Frederick III and the Letters of the Empress (http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&blobtype=pdf&artid=381777).

I hope you all like it.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on February 10, 2006, 08:54:39 AM
Vicky is by far one of my favorite royal personages, and I devour any information concerning her that I can lay my hands, or eyes, on.  I know that Vicky had three principal homes during her marriage with Fritz:

Kronprinzenpalais on Unter der Linden
Bornstedt
Neues Palais

I was watching an independent German movie the other evening (made sometime in 2000 I believe) and I could have sworn that I saw the Kronprinzenpalais in one of the scenes.  I was under the impression that the building had been destroyed, but in looking for photos on the web I of course have found myself mistaken.  

We have all seen several photos and images of the Neues Palais and Friedrichshof, and I've seen some beautiful pictures of Bornstedt as well, but I was wondering if anyone had any images or information to share on the Kronprinzenpalais, especially interior views, floorplans, etc.

(http://www.artdreamguide.com/adg/adg_GER/be_GER/berli_be/m_ang/img/_jpg/kpp_01.jpg)


Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 10, 2006, 10:28:22 AM
You can go to these sites:

http://einsteinexhibit.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/Ausstellung/palais

http://www.luise-berlin.de/tourismus/seiten/Linden/kronprinzenpalais_ks_bild_f.html

http://www.fkoester.de/berlinfahrt/berlin/hz_kronprinz1.html

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 10, 2006, 10:33:22 AM
yes indeed, the Kronprinzpalais was one of the few formerly royal buildings that the former DDR did not destroy in Berlin.

This building is looking just fine today and is definitely part of the long-term city scape of the newly remodeled center of Berlin.

Right across the river from the Kronprinzpalais is the site of the former Stadtschloss whose rebuilding remains in discussions. Had the rebuilding started right after the fall of the Wall, it would have been completed by now. But, alas, money was plentiful after the Wall falling; now it will be very tough to fund such a mammoth project.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: bell_the_cat on February 11, 2006, 04:10:47 AM
Here's a link for Bornstedt:

http://www.krongut-bornstedt.de/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 03, 2006, 08:47:32 PM
Sigismund

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/File1046sigiw.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/File1742sigiw.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 03, 2006, 08:48:37 PM
I often wondered about this. In some modern books this is ID'd as Sigi but in contemporary magazines and postcards it's ID'd as Wilhelm:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/sigismundmaybew.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on March 04, 2006, 01:45:32 AM
I think it is Sigi.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on March 04, 2006, 04:32:59 AM
Definitely Sigi! He had a rounder face and fuller lips. Plus Willy usually had more of a glare--even in his earliest photos. He looked the troubled little boy that he was.  :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 04, 2006, 10:36:46 AM
Vicky's had immense admiration for Waldemar's manner and intelligence, etc, especially in comparison to her "other sons". What did she think were the long term opportunities for her and Waldy and even Fritz? Did she think somehow that her being able to raise a solidly wonderful Waldy (and Sigi) to manhood would have blunted the power of William?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 04, 2006, 12:34:08 PM
I don't think she looked at her other sons as counter-balances to Wilhelm's eventual power. I think she was just a mother who came into her own and was able to gain some control over her own children after losing it in regards to Wilhelm, Charlotte and Henry. I think that compounded her feelings of loss--that those were two sons, especially Waldie, who actually were devoted to her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: nelly on March 04, 2006, 10:22:06 PM
Very definately Sigi!!  Not to be too crass about it, but look at the child's arms.  William's damaged arm was obvious in his pictures at this age, and as a matter of fact, he usually was posed to hide this problem.  Even in the picture taken with his aunt, Princess Beatrice, in 1862, the arm is noticeably shorter than the other.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Wettin on March 08, 2006, 05:56:44 AM

Concerning her financial situation, her residences etc I´ve reread two chapters in Röhl´s second volume about Willy. I´m aware of that  he is only one source of knowledge but he seems to be wellinformed.
1. Vicky recieved 600,000 mark per year as a dowager so she couldn´t keep a large court any more. Only two high male courtiers and three ladies-in-waiting. She had about 200,000 mark per year from her personal property (her dowry?) and she had got the 1 million mark after Wilhelm I, which Willy had accepted ("mit Billigung WilhelmsII").
2. Vicky´s brother Edward (VII) asked his mother ("die Queen") to write to Willy and ask where Vicky could reside when in Potsdam. She still had the Kronprinzenpalais in Berlin. Willy wrote back July 6 1888. He states that all the castels in Potsdam except Sans-Souci and the small Stadtschloss belong to his grandma, Wilhelm I´s widow. Sans-Souci was the only place where he could quarter guests. He knew that the capital after Wilhelm I was not at Vicky´s full disposition since it was earmarked as legacy to Vicky´s children but he (Willy) was willing to refrain from any rights to it and he was going to ask his siblings to do the same.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 08, 2006, 07:10:08 AM
Yes that means Vicky had no place to stay in Potsdam. There are quite a few palaces there and not one for Vicky...I found that strange.  >:(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Wettin on March 08, 2006, 07:59:38 AM
Quote
There are quite a few palaces there and not one for Vicky...I found that strange.

So, Mr Lowe, do you as usually put the blame on Willy?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: La_Rainha on March 08, 2006, 11:54:12 AM
Kaiserin Friedrich ( wie sie sich nannte) could live in Potsdam, but she prefered a residence in the german  province! She decided to live in the Taunus, a nice region in Hessen with many forrests and a nice landscape! Her "Widow Palace" has the name Friedrichshof, which was decorated with all her beloved memories, she took with from her visits!
I think, she wants to be alone with her memories concerning Kaiser Friedrich III!

For me, Kaiserin Viktoria von Deutschland, is a tragic person in the german history!
She really loved her husband, her children and also her new homeland! She was interest in social affairs and helps to built up new social organisations!
But the Germans didn`t like her!
I don`t know why???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 08, 2006, 05:30:21 PM
Dowager Empress Augusta died less than 2 years after Fritz. If, as  "Willy wrote back July 6 1888. He states that all the castels in Potsdam except Sans-Souci and the small Stadtschloss belong to his grandma, Wilhelm I´s widow" did he make any of them available to Vicky after her death? If not, what was his excuse?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 08, 2006, 07:21:19 PM
Yes dear Wettin,

I do not need to put the blame on Willy as far as his treatment of his mother is concerned. It was a well known fact in Britian ! Queen Alexandra told her son George V ABOUT wILLY at the start of WWI " I have always told you that he is a bad mAn, now perhaps you will believe me !" Vicky did managed to get on better with her troublesome son by "shutting up". She had the satisfaction of telling Bismark (who had the nerve to beg her to intercede with her son)that "I can do nothing for you now, you have successfully destroyed whatever influence I had with my son".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 09, 2006, 05:56:51 AM
Quote
Yes dear Wettin,

I do not need to put the blame on Willy as far as his treatment of his mother is concerned. It was a well known fact in Britian ! Queen Alexandra told her son George V ABOUT wILLY at the start of WWI " I have always told you that he is a bad mAn, now perhaps you will believe me !" Vicky did managed to get on better with her troublesome son by "shutting up". She had the satisfaction of telling Bismark (who had the nerve to beg her to intercede with her son)that "I can do nothing for you now, you have successfully destroyed whatever influence I had with my son".


For once I agree with you!! :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on March 10, 2006, 07:56:36 PM

A good view of Friedrichshof
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1945/friedrichshof20schloss1ou.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ipflo on March 11, 2006, 07:35:39 AM
Yes, she also lived in schloss Homburg, before she moved to Friedrichshof. This castle was also a preferred place to stay of emperor William II.

(http://www.schloesser-hessen.de/images/schloesser/badhomburg/homburg1.jpg)

(http://www.preussen.de/Bilder/Geschichte/preussische_orte/schloss_homburg_v.jpg)

(http://www.eberwein-archiv.org/img/schloss_homburg.jpg)

(http://www.bad-homburger-hochzeitsmesse.de/impressionen/01.gif)

(http://cateringsbest.de/filestore/schloss0182.jpg)

(http://greuel.de/Fotos20/20496.jpg)

(http://ferienportal.net/templates/img/news/small/news.1779.0.jpg)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2006, 06:19:49 PM
I also heard that Vicky's Great Aunt Eliszabeth (daughter of King George III) also lived there since she married into the Hesse-Homberg line.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ipflo on March 12, 2006, 03:50:32 AM
Yes that's right, one of the wings of the castle is also the English wing, due to the rebuilding in that time.

She also built a little castle near Homburg, but I can not remember the name, and they also used the castle of Meisenheim.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2006, 06:59:17 AM
I was told if you go to Schloss Homburg today, you can see Elisabeth's portrait and her bedroom too.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2006, 05:28:37 PM
The 2nd photo brnbg posted is from the crowning of Wilhelm I, I believe. Vicky did a sketch of herself from the occasion

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/File1340vickycoronationw.jpg)

The 3rd one is one of my all-time favorite portraits--and not just of Vicky but period. I made a print of it to frame. She looks so sweet and fresh.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2006, 06:04:04 AM
The small head portrait from this painting of Vicky is in Harewood House.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on March 14, 2006, 07:52:48 AM
This is a brilliant portrait of Vicky ensconced in the chair with the vivid orange sash, the head of which is on my copy of An Uncomman Woman.  Where does this portrait currently hang?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2006, 08:11:38 AM
A copy of it hung in the Kronberg Hotel (Friedrichof ).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2006, 04:34:45 PM
A copy of the head & shoulders was done by B Muller (after von Angeli) as a birthday present from Vicky to QV, dated in 1890. The original (by von Angeli) was still at Friedrichshof. It's based on VA's study in b&w chalk also done in 1890. Vicky sat for a later painting in 1893-94. Vicky wrote to QV in Sept 1889 that she that VA promised her that it would be very good and that Vicky would be proud and pleased to send QV a copy but that the original wasn't finished and could only be trusted to a good copyist. When QV received it she described it as 'quite beautiful though very sad--a look she has so often now, poor dear'. It later went to Marlborough House and Buckingham Palace witha  miniature in the Royal Collection. Another version belonged to WII and was at Huis Doorn.


WII had a copy made of the full-length version done by B Muller (after von Angeli) and gave it to EVII in 1902.  It hung in EVII's rooms at Buckingham Palace but was moved in 1910 to Marlborough House.

In these she wears her widow's dress and is wearing the ribbon and star of the Black Eagle.

These copies made from various paintings can make identifying (for us laymen!) who the artist is and where the portraits might be. It seems that the von Angeli originals are all in Germany at Friedrichshof while the copies (by Muller) are the ones in England.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2006, 08:46:33 PM
Yes...and as I have said a copy of the head shot (Von Angeli) is in Harewood House, home of Princess Mary, the only daughter of George V. I saw it there when I visted Harewood House in 2002.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2006, 09:38:39 PM
Yes but it would seem the copy is by Muller based on the von Angeli. QV had a little stable of copyist to reproduce portraits done of her family members that were hung in foreign palaces.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on March 16, 2006, 08:43:27 AM
This may seem a bit morbid, but are there any images of the Empress' funeral?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 16, 2006, 08:48:47 PM
There were some images in the magazines at the time.I don't think photos though.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 16, 2006, 09:15:42 PM
You have any of those to share ? Even Hannah Pakula does not... :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2006, 07:10:14 AM
I have one of Count Wallersee (sp) carrying a pillow with a small crown on it in the procession. That's it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Emilia on April 10, 2006, 08:04:48 AM
(http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/victalb/viky2.jpg)

Vicky with Wilhelm and Charlotte (it looks a bit like the painting by Winterhalter, doesn´t it? ;))
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: imperial angel on May 05, 2006, 10:24:47 AM
 Anyway, I ageee with those who say that Vicky did not have good taste in clothes. In her youth, though, Vicky was lovely. The fashions of that day were sometimes quite bad when they were overdone, which is perhaps the truth of fashions in every age. This photo doesn't show them to advantage, but the Prussian court was pretty straight laced. The Romanovs were quite different, for instance. Some people are also more photogenic than others.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Marie Valerie on June 05, 2006, 04:09:20 AM
I wonder if Fritz has ever had a mistress or illegitimately children while his marriage to Vicky?

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on June 05, 2006, 05:41:53 AM
That sounds most improbable. Fritz deeply loved Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Marie Valerie on June 05, 2006, 05:51:57 AM
Quote
That sounds most improbable. Fritz deeply loved Vicky.


I know he loved Vicky, but that doesn't mean he was faithful all the time.
Kaiser Franz Joseph loved and adored his wife Elisabeth, and cheated on her...
Even Emperors were weak.  ::)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on June 05, 2006, 06:15:59 AM
Vicky & Fritz enjoyed a much more priviledged relationship than Franz Josef & Elisabeth. Vicky loved Fritz as much as he did her and this love lasted till the end of both their lives. She was not only his wife but also his confident & adviser. She took interest in all he did. They enjoyed a true family life & were devoted parents to their brood of 8.
Vicky & Sisi were quite different personalities. Vicky knew the meaning of the word "duty", she never ceased to love her husband & would never have deserted him. She grew to love Fritz's country & fellow countrymen and was ready to toil for them - which was unthinkable for Elisabeth (apart from where Hungary was concerned of course).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 07, 2006, 08:06:32 PM
Yes, Agneschen, you are most correct. Fritz would never have "cheated" on Vicky. To lump him into the same behavior pool of other emperors and royals is very, very wrong. Fritz not only had a never ending full devotion to his wife, it was totally mutual. His 19th century liberal nature was 21st century conservatism in terms of family life and he was a true renaissance man, much ahead of his time.

His unique style, warmth, caring nature, family orientation, modern views made him a very different royal persona than his peers and colleagues. Even brother in law Edward was no comparison in terms of family life, for sure.

Attached is a noble image of this great man. Nothing very negative can be said about him, other than he should have had more courage to succeed his father when WI was willing to abdicate. Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 08, 2006, 11:56:15 PM
You are so right, Agneschen.  And HerrKaiser, you are totally right when you say nothing negative is ever said about him.

I don't think there is much to say about him negatively.  He was a pure and true individual, Albert's true intellectual heir, IMO.  He and Vicky would have made a glorious and historically significant emperor and empress, had they been able to rule.  His early death was, IMO, one of the biggest losses of the end of the 19th century.

His one mistake was of course not succeeding when he had the chance, but who could have foreseen the problems to come?  He probably though his father wouldn't live very long anyway.

He would never have cheated on Vicky, as he was totally happy and content in his roles as family man, liberal intellectual, and heir to the throne.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on June 09, 2006, 05:16:13 AM
Quote
His one mistake was of course not succeeding when he had the chance, but who could have foreseen the problems to come?  He probably though his father wouldn't live very long anyway.
 

had he done so he would have been the son who turned against his own father. while his choice was not good for history, it was a proof of a very strong character.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 09, 2006, 07:59:49 AM
It was a time when Fritz's nobility actually worked against him. He couldn't bring himself to betray his father.

He wavered back and forth for a long time and Vicky's letters to QV are full of this sense of uncertainty and of their destiny perhaps hinging on this decision. Fritz was being pulled and pushed in different directions by various factions and agendas.

Of course, Fritz succeeded in pleasing no one in the end. His supporters felt immense disappointment in his decision to not seize the opportunity, his enemies, while delighted in the decision, felt contemptuous of his 'weakness' and his father was, typically, not appreciative nor grateful.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 12, 2006, 01:44:16 PM
While he pleased no one with his decsion to grasp power, was it not his father who suggested his own abdication and who was esssentially throwing up his arms in disgust and ready to quit? It was Bismarck who strong-armed WI to stay the course and Bismarck who pressured Fritz into reassuring his father to stay on the throne.

Fritz' loyalty to his father did end up being his own lost opportunity (and perhaps all of history; one could easily argue that a 5-10 year reign by Fritz and Vicky may have signifcantly altered the factors that spawned WWI and hence no WWII), however, as Wettin has posted earlier, the structure and mechanisms of the German Empire and culture would have likely needed more than a few years of Fritz' leadership to change substantially. And, Bismarck was still a force to deal with.

Interestingly, many us tend to consider the what the world would have been with as Fritz and Vicky era, but the real difference may have been achieved had Prince Bismarck NOT actually been the power force during the latter 19th century Germany. Ironically, the only one with the will to stand up to Bismarck was William II.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on June 13, 2006, 05:37:35 AM
yes, but william made things worse. bismarck at least had some sort of an agenda. william simply had insecurity issues, he wanted to be the greatest and to have the world at his feet and changed  his tactics just about every minute. very bad for germany, and ironically by trying to be the greatest he actually ridiculed himself.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Guinastasia on June 25, 2006, 10:01:18 PM
There were rumors of Fritz having a fling with a famous royal courtesan, but they were just that: rumors.  Probably spread by Bismarck and company.


There is a really sweet picture of Fritz with Sophie and Mossy-taken at the same time as that other pic someone posted-that's in An Uncommon Woman.  In it, he's smiling, and you can tell the two little ones are just giggling like mad.  So cute!

Also, it was the German doctors who wanted to operate on him, and MacKenzie said no, it wasn't cancer.  While the Germans were correct in diagnosis, most likely he would never have survived the operation.  Even today, it's supposed to be a VERY risky one.  

Queen Victoria's visit was also known because she met privately with Bismarck, who was terrified of her.  Good!  The man may have made Germany what it was, but I hate him.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2006, 02:59:47 AM
Sophie was NOT like her mother Vicky at all. If you read the letters Vicky wrote to Sophie, you can see that Vicky had more energy than her daughter. While she encourage Sophie to get more involved in Greek matters, the latter wasn't that much interested. Hense you see the not of frustration of the Empress in the letters.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 31, 2006, 07:11:12 AM
Sophie was NOT like her mother Vicky at all. If you read the letters Vicky wrote to Sophie, you can see that Vicky had more energy than her daughter. While she encourage Sophie to get more involved in Greek matters, the latter wasn't that much interested. Hense you see the not of frustration of the Empress in the letters.

That may have been true in Sophies earlier days in Greece but as she matured her interest and confidence grew. She devoted lots of her energy into some very worth while causes. I believe her daughter Katherine says as much in Born to Rule, but don't have the book to hand.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2006, 08:53:08 AM
Although she did do quite a number of charity work in Greece, she was never really as motivated as her mother or her mother-in-law Queen Olga (who was the only member to gained the love of the Greek people and remained undimished). A lot of drawback came from her shyness and retired nature (like Alix of Russia and Ena of Spain). Something that Queen Alexandra of England and Missy did not have.  :P
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 31, 2006, 03:32:33 PM
True she did suffer from shyness but she still get involved with charity work and made a lovely Queen IMO. It's not suprising she was well thought of by Mossy, Vicky etc :) 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 31, 2006, 04:56:44 PM
I think the difference between Vicky and Sophie (and Missy and Sophie for that matter) is self-motivation. Vicky landed in Prussia raring to go and was stifled for almost her entire time there. Sophie was young and content to settle in and be married and be a mother. Vicky hectored Sophie (there's really no other word) for years, inundating her with tons of information on everything from nursing to santiation to building structure to the local culture and on and on. Now few people are as naturally bright and inquisitive as Vicky and I think Sophie felt a bit overwhelmed. As she settled in and found her footing she began to become more and more involved. Plus, she had to be careful not to step on Queen Olga's toes in terms of charitable endeavors and patronships.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2006, 08:38:44 PM
Indeed ! However it was her shyness and retiring nature (being blamed as her "Englishness" or later "German coldness") that prevented her from being popular in her own way. Queen Alexandra (like Diana later on) was able to swoop down to the people's level and made people think that she is one of them (one story recalled that when one of the tenants of Sandingham estate died in war, Queen Alexandra will go personally to comfort the widow." once enter the door, she envaloped the widow in an embrace and cried "Oh my poor dear !"). One should also remember that Alexandra had to be mindful not to trend on QV's toes too. So I guess she was more of a wife, mother than one that get motivated by making changes in society.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: TampaBay on August 05, 2006, 08:25:21 PM
According to Hannah Pakula, QV charmed Bismark and Bismark charmed QV.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 12:08:49 AM
Oh, absolutely they ended up impressed with one another-I just found it really funny that going in, Bismarck was sweating and nervous.  Hehehehe.

Vicky's and Fritz's relationship was truely rare-an arranged marriage that ended up being a love match.  A very deep, devoted love.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 22, 2006, 12:23:40 PM
they truly were impresses with each other from the moment they met. But, their marriage was not really arranged. Vicky was a mere child when they met on occasion of a state visit of William of Prussia in England. Fritz was older than the "right" age for Vicky, but by virtue of his and her great attraction for each other, fritz waited for vicky to come of age in order to marry her. His father wanted Fritz to hook up more quickly with another, but Fritz wanted Vicky as his wife and future queen. Theirs was a storybook royal love match, paralleled only by QV and Albert.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on August 23, 2006, 12:34:58 AM
true, but the possibility of a marriage between them had already been discussed and that was one of the reasons fritz was there in the first place, when they met. it was all part of albert's plan of modernizing germany.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 23, 2006, 09:03:28 AM
yes, I do agree that Albert was committed to his ideals and ideas of a contemporary social/political state in his Fatherland and thought a high level link with his daughter could help achieve such.

by the by, while it is slightly off topic, would Albert have been able to affect such a modernization of German structure more effectively had he not married QV and remained a in Germany? While his "rank" was not in the top tier among all the other German royals, his character and political savy may have catapulted him into arenas of power. Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on August 24, 2006, 02:12:51 AM
very good question... could be... but i don't think he ever thought of that. he knew he was supposed to marry victoria. it might seem like their marriage was a consequence of victoria's passion but the truth is that they met when they were young and she had agreed to marrying him and then she enjoyed her independent life too much and put him off which really upset him. of course when they met again she instantly fell in love and the rest is history... but the plan had been there for years...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: imperial angel on August 30, 2006, 05:38:49 PM
It's interesting to read about Sophie; she was an important Queen, but few, very few could be like Vicky. Vicky was a good Crown Princess and consort for the while that she was. She never had much empathy with the common people either, which was also true of Sophie.Vicky was too intellectual, Sophie perhaps not motivated enough.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2006, 08:59:51 PM
Indeed ! Sophie was actually very "English" in the way of conservativeness and retiring nature. She did do the charity work that is required of her, but her spirit was not in there ( a bit like her cousin Alicky). The total opposite would be Missy, who was very "gung ho" and loved to meet people (like her Aunt Minny, who was like that too).  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: carl fraley on September 28, 2006, 03:26:30 PM
Has anyone every been able to see on paper just exactly what was the Amount and what all was included in Vicky's Dowry?  According to Hannah Pakula over the years of their marriage b/c Wilhelm and Agusta were so stingy and kept their son & heir very poor indeed , that they (Vicky and Fritz) had to dip into her dowry to cover costs several times over the years.

Was her dowry set up as a Trust?? Where the interest was available but never the capital?? ANyone know?

And also if there was Any of her dowry left when she died what would have happened to it? Would it have reverted back to Vicky when Fritz died?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: TampaBay on September 28, 2006, 06:49:19 PM
When Vicky married Fredrich, Prince Albert arranged to to have a "comptroller" sent to Germany with her to administrate her "estate/dowry" as a private "household".

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 29, 2006, 10:17:57 PM
Didn't Vicky build Friedrichshof out of what was left of her dowry?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: carl fraley on September 30, 2006, 12:00:24 AM
I"m not sure but i know that in order to Finish Friedrichshof , she used a bequest left to her by the Duchess of Galleira
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: TampaBay on September 30, 2006, 04:27:16 AM
Didn't Vicky build Friedrichshof out of what was left of her dowry?

No!  It was a combination of monies from Fritz and an inheritance from some "rich old lady".

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 30, 2006, 06:15:07 AM
Yes the Duchess, very kind gesture as I don't think Vicky would have been able to afford the building of Friedichshof.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Ada on October 01, 2006, 10:19:43 PM
Someone asked if there were any pictures of her funeral.  If you go to www.imdb.com, and enter "Empress Frederick" into the search, it shows that a documentary film of her funeral was made "by special command of His Imperial Majesty, Wilhelm II".  Unfortunately I have no idea how one would get a copy of it.  But it's out there somewhere!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Guinastasia on October 02, 2006, 12:57:38 PM
The 2nd photo brnbg posted is from the crowning of Wilhelm I, I believe. Vicky did a sketch of herself from the occasion

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/File1340vickycoronationw.jpg)

The 3rd one is one of my all-time favorite portraits--and not just of Vicky but period. I made a print of it to frame. She looks so sweet and fresh.

Is it just me, or do the sleeves sort of resemble Russian court dress?  Interesting!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Keith on October 02, 2006, 06:45:46 PM
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/fajack/Vicky1860s.jpg)

I believe this is the dress she wore to the coronation. In the drawing the sleeves do look Russian style, but not in the photo. I think they look more puffy in the photo, could just be the way she is posing.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2006, 09:49:15 PM
I think the Russian sleeves (i think like a variation of the Tudor sleeve) are more attractive than the puffy ones... ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: gogm on October 03, 2006, 09:23:31 PM
That is an impressive gown! And an equal beauty wearing it! :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 14, 2006, 12:01:43 PM
thanks for the info, Ada. yes, these are very wonderful drawings of the funeral of the great woman and empress. I believe the Church her coffin is being carried into is the Church in the town of Kronberg, near Frederickhof, that Vicky actually had built with her own money as a thank you to the people of the area for embracing her as a local resident and mother image.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 15, 2006, 11:11:06 PM
There's a nice illustration in one of the memorial issues to Vicky of Bertie placing a wreath on his sister's coffin and one of Wilhelm kneeling at her casket. I don't think I've seen anything but sketches though--no photographs.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 01:47:31 AM
Wonder why not ? There was quite a lot of QV...maybe Germans do not photo this ?  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2006, 08:31:26 AM
I don't know--there aren't a lot of  photographs of Hohenzollern weddings either. Maybe they were taken but not disseminated widely to the public?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 16, 2006, 10:08:53 AM
Yes, it seems the German royal family were not on the forefront of photographing key family events such as weddings and funerals. The Lutheran Church was never in favor of pictures during during Sacraments, and that still exists today in most Lutheran Churches; maybe that is the reason.

there is a film of Vicky's funeral procession, but in spite of my attemptst to obtain a copy or segments, all have been in vain. I intend to try in person next time I am in Bablesberg where, I am told, such archives exist for on-site viewing.

The torch procession and torch dance tradition must have been very moving and spectacular, whether for wedding or funeral. From my searches, it appears these traditions were uniquely German, and of course executed with great pomp amongst royals. In current times, the German weddings I've attended, as well as funerals, use sparklers or matches to replace the torches. Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 10:52:16 AM
I wonder if there is a Prussian state archievs for photos and information about the Imperial family in maybe Berlin ?  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 23, 2006, 02:38:27 PM
Does anyone have any information on the book "Empress Frederick writes to Sophie"? Sounds an interesting old book :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on October 23, 2006, 03:40:49 PM
The late family archivist to the Hohenzollerns told me that there were no photographs of the weddings of the Crown Prince nor his siblings.

Yes, it seems the German royal family were not on the forefront of photographing key family events such as weddings and funerals. The Lutheran Church was never in favor of pictures during during Sacraments, and that still exists today in most Lutheran Churches; maybe that is the reason.

there is a film of Vicky's funeral procession, but in spite of my attemptst to obtain a copy or segments, all have been in vain. I intend to try in person next time I am in Bablesberg where, I am told, such archives exist for on-site viewing.

The torch procession and torch dance tradition must have been very moving and spectacular, whether for wedding or funeral. From my searches, it appears these traditions were uniquely German, and of course executed with great pomp amongst royals. In current times, the German weddings I've attended, as well as funerals, use sparklers or matches to replace the torches. Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on October 23, 2006, 03:42:05 PM
In 1901,  news photography was limited.  In fact, it would have been rare to have a photograph in a newspaper during that time.
Wonder why not ? There was quite a lot of QV...maybe Germans do not photo this ?  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 23, 2006, 04:07:52 PM
About the only ones I've seen were the photo of Dona in her wedding dress and there was a postcard I bought that showed Victoria Louise's wedding dress on display. The ones of Victoria Louise and her siblings are montage ones put together from old pictures and some imagination. A good deal of sketches though showing the ceremonies and guests.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2006, 10:01:33 PM
Also one of Irene and Heinrich at their wedding.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Ada on October 23, 2006, 11:58:48 PM
"The Empress Frederick Writes to Sophie"  is one of my favorite books about Vicky.  It is mostly her letters to Sophie after she married and moved to Greece.  There are a few of Sophie's replies as well.  Vicky's letters are so interesting and show what an interesting and well educated person  she was.  They give an excellent picture of what she was like as a mother.  I highly recommend this book - but it is very hard to find!  I special ordered it from my library through inter library loan. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2006, 03:00:32 AM
Yes compiled by Arthur Gould Lee, who also wrote Queen Mother Helen of Romania's bio and a book on the Greek Dynasty. I have all three. A must for all Vicky and helen lovers.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 24, 2006, 06:25:26 AM
Great! thank you Ada :) I'm in London so shouldn't have to much trouble trying to find it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 24, 2006, 11:05:22 AM
This is totally off-topic from the above discussions, but I have recently read (although I can't remember the title of the book at this time) that Vicky was a smoker, and I can't recall reading anything about this in all of the Vicky-related materials I have read over the years.  Has anyone else heard of this?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 24, 2006, 01:16:09 PM
Iv'e not heard that. But I know she disliked people smoking when under her roof. Princess Marie Louise mentions it in her memoirs! :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2006, 10:14:28 PM
it is quite possible that Vicky would have taken a puff of cigarette from time to time. Although I don't think she was an addict (like VMH, Ducky, Missy...etc).  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 25, 2006, 07:39:16 AM
Although Vicky was largely shunned in William's reign, did she ever attend any functions in full gala attire (i.e. diadem, etc)?  I have seen several pictures and portraits of her in widow's attire, but it's so odd (at least in my opinion) that there aren't more images of her with her diadems and court gowns.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2006, 01:29:03 PM
There are seemingly few of her in gala dress even before she was a widow. I don't know if the Prussian court didn't entertain as much as other Courts or if the pictures haven't emerged or what the reason could be. She definitely attended her children's weddings in gowns and jewels but, as has been mentioned in other threads, there weren't usually photographs--just sketches and written descriptions.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2006, 09:26:51 PM
I don't think Vicky was as interested in dress and jewels as other female royals in Postdam. In fact she critized them doing nothing but changing clothes and jewels for functions. Vicky spread her fortune/allowances in collecting art, antiques (paintings, scuplture & furniture) and books.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 26, 2006, 07:48:59 AM
She definitely wasn't interested in the fatigues and costs of the toilettes of which she was expected to grace the court in.  I think it's pretty safe to say that she wasn't interested in this part of the life of a royal, as she eventually dispensed with the services of her wardrobe maid to save money.  Although this mode of thought is understandable, I would at least have expected to see Vicky in some sort of state portrait in glittering regalia/jewelry.  After all, she was a resident of Prussia for over 30 years when Fritz died!

Did the Prussians use the medium of State portraits for their rulers and consorts?  I have seen portraits galore of Willy and Dona, and a few (very few) of Wilhelm and Augusta.  I think it's a shame that Vicky didn't get her due in the course of her life in Prussia, but then again, with such a different outlook on everything from the average Prussian, I can certainly see why.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 26, 2006, 08:40:42 AM
Plus, she never really obtained the revered status of empress, the way Augusta and Dona did. When Vicky and Fritz asended the throne, his days were well known to be numbered, and very few at that. Vicky held only one official court reception as empress in which the top officials and court paid their traditional graces to her highness, but that was it. With a dying husband who was most of her world, a son eager to replace them both, little comfort from the other powers in place, Vicky had miserably little time to consider the opportunity for clothes, jewels and portraits. Had she and Fritz actually attained a 10-20 year reign, she may have come to enjoy a piece of finery or two, but even as a tenured empress, she likely would have remained more modest and reserved in her classically sophisticated style.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 26, 2006, 11:59:56 AM
I agree with all of your comments.  Considering Vicky was the most promising, IMO, of Victoria and Albert's children makes the situation that much worse.  Since Vicky was only Empress for a little over three months, Augusta would most likely have kept anything she wanted (without a confrontation due to the state of Fritz's health), and what did pass to Vicky would have gone, as tradition demanded, to Dona.  I just wish there was some undiscovered, breathtaking portrait of Vicky hidden away in some Schloss that could come to light!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 26, 2006, 12:03:43 PM
Vicky's dowry was approved at 40,000 pounds with an annuity of 8,000 pounds; her father made the comment that although it wasn't a great amount, it would allow independence.  I am sure QV would have given Vicky money when she needed it later on, because many of her early letters concerned Alice's "begging".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 26, 2006, 02:10:49 PM
this is a wonderful image, and complimentary to Vicky. Bad Homburg is near to Kronberg where she lived the last 10 years of her life. I particularly like the tiara carved onto her head. I do not recall this piece in any photo. If you haven't been to Kronberg, it is worth the trip. There is a strong sense of her presence in the great home. the historians and caretakers at the site have more insights than I do, but I know there were quite wonderful portraits I'd not seen anywhere else published (one of Fritz too). I was there during the 100th anniversary of her death commemoration, and all was in its glory.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 09:53:42 PM
Hmmm...I heard she also get to use the Schloss at Bad Homburg apart from the house she built in Kronberg (Friedrichof). I wonder if her rooms there were preserved. I know her grand aunt Elisabeth, Landravine of Hesse-Homburg lived there in her widowhood.  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: carkuczyn on October 26, 2006, 10:17:40 PM
what is the general consensus on why kaiser wilhelm had such disdain for his mother?  everything that i have read about her states that she was a model mother, wife, and citizen.  how can one be so uncaring about one's own mother?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 10:24:02 PM
Willy blamed Vicky and her English doctors for his stiff arm. To counter this defect, Vicky made him wear corsets to correct this. Certainly she had high hopes for him and wasn't the gentle mother he had wanted (unlike his Aunt Alice). This coupled with the tutors, grandparents, Bismark finally successed in reducing Vicky's influrence with Willy to almost zero. Also different beliefs in political issues also drew them apart.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on October 27, 2006, 02:23:54 AM
we must remember that willie was not raised by his mother. as a child you perceive as a parent figure not necessarily your biological parents but the ones that raised you. willie was raised by william 1st and empress augusta who both had a bad opinion on vicky. that must have had quite an influence on willie.

willie was raised in the spirit of authority and absolutism. vicky believed in constitutional monarchy.

willie was an insecure person, always more than willing to show himself to the world, vicky and her husband were in the way. they were the heirs. not willie.

willie was a german. vicky was english. england was the competition. willie always viewed it as such. therefor the whole arms race and everything.

and, yes, the fact that frederick died while being taken care of by english doctors i'm sure increased willie's despise for his mother: something of the 'she's killed my father because of that damn country' sort. no matter how little affection willie had for his father (and i'm sure it was little), that idea only increased his low opinion on her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2006, 02:30:55 AM
Yes...although he was impressed by her mental powess as well as her excellent taste. After Vicky designed and built Friedrichof, Willy fell in love with it the first time he was invited there (the palace had installed every perosnal luxury Vicky found so essential). After that he grab every excuse to go back there until his mother really felt tired of seeing him so often.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 27, 2006, 07:09:15 AM
I don't think Vicky wasn't gentle. She had high standards but she deeply loved her children (Moretta wrote about this years later). Reading some of Willys letters to his mother during his teenage yars they sound very intimate. He was definitely jealous of her and bitter because of his looking for someone to blame (his own mother and the English doctors!!).

Eric what is your source for Willy enjoying his visits to Friedrichof and jumped at every chance to visit? :) It doesn't sound accurate to me, don't know what everyone else thinks? It would appear that Willy didn't visit her "so often" he hardly made the effort. On several occasions he did drop in unexpectedly which caused a lot of fuss! Then I believe he complained that no one appreciated his suprise visit  ::) I think he only visited her 2 - 3 times when she was dying.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 27, 2006, 09:42:02 AM
I've read about Wilhelm's admiration of Friedrichshof and his enjoyment at visiting there--though 'jumping at every chance' might be a bit of an exaggeration. Vicky had been left relatively homeless in her widowhood--the palace (Kronberg?) put at her disposal as her main residence was apparently falling down around her ears. Because she purchased Friedrichshof with her own money--left to her by the Duchess of Galliera--she had autonomy to create the home that she wanted without having to appeal to Wilhelm for permission or money. The design, landscape and furnishing all reflected her interests and travels. Wilhelm apparently found it quite appealing and cozy--far different from the homes he himself inhabited--ironically, the exact opposite of what Vicky probably woud've been 'stuck with' had he given her a decent place to live.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 27, 2006, 11:36:01 AM
Why would it have been that a dear woman, daughter of QV, sister to the next King of England, mother of the German Emperor, widow of the Kaiser of the second Reich, ever be left scrapping for a place to live? I have always been confused by the massive capabilities and resources all these people had with which to provide Vicky a widowhood in grand style, yet it seems none of them wrote a check. While WII may have been playing a game of power and cruelty, why did QV and Edward not step up to the plate?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 27, 2006, 12:47:48 PM
QV did write to WII asking him to find an appropriate residence for Vicky. But what more could they do? WII was Emperor in his own right. I think he was just being petty sadly. Still it worked out for her she owned a beautiful home that was designed to her specifications, it;s not suprising she loved it so much considering some of the awful abodes she had formly occupied. Coming from her mothers beautiful homes she must have found it even harder.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: carkuczyn on October 27, 2006, 04:11:48 PM
why was willy raised by his grandparents?  vicky and frederick were there and able to parent him......why did no one put their foot down and insist on the grandparents not interfering?  i know how i would be if anyone tried to come between me and my children......and if my mother was queen of england that would only increase my boldness against interfering inlaws. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2006, 08:42:58 PM
One must not forget the Prussia was an autocrat state. Vicky and her husband were subject to obey the emperor. Wilhelm II and Bismark distrusted her loyalty and her English ways and sought to influence Willy through his appointment of governors, tutors and spoil his vanity. Vicky had no choice but to sit back and let the drama played itself. She had hoped things will be righted when they came to throne. However fate played a nasty trick on her and Fritz... :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 27, 2006, 09:00:35 PM
why was willy raised by his grandparents?  vicky and frederick were there and able to parent him......why did no one put their foot down and insist on the grandparents not interfering?  i know how i would be if anyone tried to come between me and my children......and if my mother was queen of england that would only increase my boldness against interfering inlaws. 

She became her father-in-law's subject once he became King (and later Emperor) and subject to his laws. She had to apply for permission to take the children on vacation--even within Germany, let alone to other parts of Europe or to England--and this was often refused or rescinded once given. Once Wilhelm and Augusta decided on the path the heir's education would take, that was it. Even Dona, who was in a stronger position as a more 'regular' royal wife, had no say when her sons were shipped off to military school. Her sister, who married Wilhelm's cousin Friedrich Leopold, frequently butted heads with her imperial brother-in-law. He once placed her family under house arrest because she'd gone ice skating (in defiance of an order of his) and it was made public when she fell through the ice. They had rules are skating, bicycle riding and other activities--all had to be cleared through the Kaiser and his rule was law. Their sons too were removed from them at 'suitable' ages to go to the military academy despite the strong wishes of their family.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2006, 10:18:43 PM
Indeed ! Married to a Prussian is no laughing matter. When Princess Louise (Vicky's younger sister) was sent by QV to look over some princes that was selected to be her husband, she didn't accept any of them. Louise looked at the heel clicking military like princes and their lack of freedom, made her turn back without any regret.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: carkuczyn on October 27, 2006, 11:23:57 PM
i guess alix was fortunate that her father in law died before she and nicky had any children then.  i don't think she would have been quite so easy to handle when it came to who controlled her children!  i would hate to have seen her and alexander III lock horns.  lol
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 28, 2006, 09:30:39 AM
While it's very true the Emperor Wilhelm I and Empress Augusta exercised a very intrusive authority over Vicky's children, I think it would be wrong to say they actually brought Willy up.  What they did was indulge him and give him an importance in his own eyes which he saw his parents denying him - his parents of course saw it as keeping his too sizeable ego in check.  With his parents isolated for their unpopular views Willy was only too keen to leap on the bandwagon and openly oppose them, especially as it won him more favour with his powerful grandparents.  It was a pretty ordinary generational struggle which became much nastier because of the high political stakes involved. 

While Willy and his mother were very distant after Friedrich III died, I understand there was more of a rapprochement towards the end of her life - although Willy's ideas on bonding seemed to involve arriving unannounced with a large suite of attendants whom it was inconvenient to feed and house.  Still, I believe he purchased for her some land alongside her estate she wanted but couldn't afford to buy, and generally tried to be a little more attentive.  However, too little and too late - hence why she got Ponsonby to smuggle out her correspondence with Queen Victoria before she died to remain as a testament to her good intentions. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Ada on October 28, 2006, 12:05:19 PM
I have also read that the tutor Vicky and Fritz hired to be in charge of Willy's education (Georg Hinzpeter) had a great influence
on the boy, and turned him against his parents in subtle but effective ways.  Vicky unfortunately did not realize this at first, and
by the time she did it was too late.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 28, 2006, 12:16:59 PM
CountessKate and Ada seem to be right on from what I have studied and learned, as well. Part of the problem Vicky had in being torpedoed in raising Willy was her age; she was just a teenager when she gave birth to him, and in spite of her upbringing, education, and training, I suspect she (and Fritz) had little idea that the forces lurking in the background were as strong and devious as they were. By the time willy had develope his personality and ideas about the world, it was too late to effectively alter the course of that rushing river, so to speak.

And yes, Willy did try to be more of a 'good son' in the last years of Vicky's life. Which makes him and all of the popular biases about him come into question, in part, in my opinion. I think he was reaching out and probably knew himself it was all too little too late. he did the same thing with QV; and his vigil at her deathbed reflects his desire to make up for lost time. Too bad he didn't replay that scene when Vicky died a few months later.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 28, 2006, 02:34:53 PM
He was on his yacht when Vicky took a turn for the worst--he was apparently furious at Dona for either not having been there herself or for not notifying him in time--I can't remember which.

Newspaper accounts of the 2nd memorial service (there were 3 services--one just family, the other with some extended members, including Bertie, and a 3rd formal funeral service) say that he walked up to the bier, sank down on one knee and fell upon her casket and, with his head wrapped in the folds of the covering, wept loudly for several minutes. This scene was illustrated in one of the Memorial Issues put out--Illustrated London News or Graphic, I can't recall. Bertie was apparently quite overtaken as well as he placed a wreath on her coffin.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 28, 2006, 08:17:26 PM
Yes...I think Willy had much better relationship with Vicky at the last phase of her life. Vicky told Sophie that it is alright to deal with Willy if she kept her mouth closed. As a political animal, it must be jarring to see her son ran the country very contrary to what she believed in (she wisely did not approve dropping Bismark from the helm even though privately she did have an exe to grind). However as a foreigner, Willy did fear her possible influence. After her death he made known that it was he who prevented Vicky from being wrapped naked in the Union Jack to be buried in Windsor (which is laughable since she already decided the place where she and her beloved Fritz should lie).... >:(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ilyala on October 30, 2006, 02:48:42 AM
there are many cases of crown princesses not being able to raise their children. because women married young and gave birth young and were considered inappropriate or incapable of raising them. there was also the basic idea that queens and princesses are supposed to be way too royal to do trifle things like spending time with children, changing diapers, nursing, playing - and other typical stuff.

for example, anne of denmark - queen consort of england and scotland as wife of james 1st/6th - was not allowed to raise her children, despite the fact that the king' parents were dead/imprisoned by the time she came to have any. but it was considered inappropriate for her to do anything other than visit them once a day. she drowned her misery in alcohol.

an even better example is that of catherine the great. when she gave birth to tsar paul 1st, tsarina elizabeth took him away from catherine and raised him herself. this led to a very strong conflict - paul hated catherine immensly and catherine didn't trust him at all. when paul had children his two oldest sons - alexander 1st and his brother constantine - were raised by catherine who didn't think paul could do a good job at it. she even wanted to skip paul and name alexander as her direct successor but she died before she managed to do that.

there's of course queen marie of romania. king carol and queen elizabeth thought of her as way too libertine to raise the future heir. carol and elizabeth - marie's oldest children - were the subjects of many influence fights. carol and elizabeth insisted on naming the tutors and marie insisted she'd have her say. this was disastruous for the two - two of the most despised royals in history.

and who can forget sissi? out of all her children she only managed to raise her youngest daughter, valerie. her meddling mother in law, sophie, insisted that sissi was not good enough to raise the heir to the throne. maybe she was right, but she definitely was cruel. and sissi's later troubles i'm sure were at least influenced by her mother in law's attitude.

this was a common problem in royalist circles.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 03:51:26 AM
True...although quite a few got away with it too. Alix had Bertie's full backing to raise her brood entirely according to her taste (some call it unfortunately). She kept them immature and a kind of never-neverland where people do not grow old and Motherdear was all important.Vicky must be very envious of her sister-in-law's liberty here, even though she did not approve the way she raise her children.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on October 30, 2006, 07:38:44 AM
Going back to grandduchessella's comment about Willy getting upset with Dona, I just wanted to add some clarification.  Dona had been attending the Empress in her final illness when she left to meet Willy on his arrival.  At that time, Willy berated Dona in front of several people for not remaining with his mother.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 10:01:17 AM
Indeed ! That is the only time that Willy did not approve of Dona being unkind or inattentive to Vicky. I cannot say that I wasn't happy at Dona's discomforture being so nastyfor such a long time towards her mother-in-law. ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2006, 02:08:04 PM
Was Dona ordered to attend to Vicky and hold a vigil, as it were, or did she desire this role?

Were any of Willy's children there?

How long after Vicky's death did Willy realize that Vicky's private letters that in some ways placed him in unflattering light were out of his grasp? Did this cause him to rebuke Vicky?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: José on October 30, 2006, 04:27:19 PM
Frederick III and Vicky's daughters were known by there nicknames/family names:
Charlotte was Charly
Victoria was Moretta
Margareth was Mossy

I can see the Charlotte/Charly but what about the others ? Where did came from ?
And Sophie, future Queen of the Helenes ? Did she had a "name" ?

What about the boys ?
The kaiser was Willy but did any of his brothers had any special name ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 30, 2006, 04:28:41 PM
Well, Sophie was sometimes called 'Sossie'. And the shortlived Sigismund and Waldemar were 'Sigi' and 'Waldy' respectively.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 06:13:06 PM
I tend to believe Willy assigned Dona to the role...

Willy was livid that his mother's papers were out of his reach. He only was able to write the prefix when the letters were published in Germany.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2006, 08:10:36 PM
Henry was sometimes called Harry.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on November 03, 2006, 09:58:36 AM
I think it's strange how Willy underestimated his mother in the respect of her letters....considering he couldn't find his father's should have given him some kind of clue as to even finding one thing of his mother's, but he only had himself to blame.  Vicky may have had her faults but I think active cooperation and respect from her son could have improved Germany's lot.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on November 03, 2006, 11:33:45 AM
I know this topic hasn't been active in a while, but since Friedrichshof is now a hotel, is Vicky's suite identified as such, and are guests allowed to stay in it?  I would love to see some of the state rooms, if they can be called as such!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 03, 2006, 07:34:56 PM
Vicky's main bedroom is not, at least when I was there, rented as a guest room. However, there was discussion indicating this might change. easy to find out by emailing the hotel.

Also, Vicky had a special suite prepared for Willy so that whenever he arrived, his room was ready. It is in much the same state as 110 years ago; a very modern bathroom for the time, etc. His private desk remains in the room as a fabulous relic.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2006, 10:46:37 PM
Wonder if photos survive ?  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on November 04, 2006, 12:46:06 AM
We can only hope that it is....I will email the hotel to see if this has been accomplished, in lack of a better term, "inaugurated".  I have to say a few words on my own behalf.  I have been reading royal history since I was about 13, and never in my life (in the 15 years I have been devouring royal history) have I had so much more information and knowledge that I have gained as from these message boards.  Thank you to all that continue to respond to my queries.  Although I don't post as much as I would like, I can't tell you how  much I appreciate all of your responses.  Sometimes I feel like you are the only people who share my continuous  search for more royal information.  I consider each of you my true friends and without you I would be unable to obtain as much information as I do.  My hat's off to you alll!!!!!!!!  I love these message boards.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2006, 08:44:46 PM
I think Vicky was much smarter than Willy (being trained by her intellectual father Prince Albert) and knew what was going on. She was right to mistrust him believing correctly that he had been poisoned by Bismark against them (she & Frtiz). However Vicky had a temper and quick to judge and that did not endear him to Willy. In then end. Vicky was forced to shut up and play the contented grandmother in order to get along with her son. It was quite remarkable that Vicky viewed Willy's dropping of Bismark to be a disaster, even though the iron chancellor had been anything but her friend. The last time they met, Bismark probably was sorry that he underestimated both Vicky's clear political eyesight and her loyalty to Prussia ( he had always suspected her to be an English spy). Vicky simply told him that she cannot help him since he had personally destroy any influrence she had with him.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
Indeed ! I enjoy this sharing of information too...it is why I particpated. To know more as there are much more information out there. I had the previledge of staying in Hotel Kronberg twice. It was very expensive, but I greatly enjoyed the Vicky connection. When I walked in the garden, and would wonder what she was thinking planning the whole site.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Johnny on November 17, 2006, 08:49:56 AM
Here in Berlin I live a short walking distance from the old Berlin's most prestigeous street, Unter den Linden, a gorgeous wide boulevard which has the stunning Brandenburg Gate at one end and the impressive Berlin Cathedral and the site of the old Royal Palace at the other end. The street is the site of many important and beautiful historical as well as more recent buildings which include the State Opera, the Russian embassey, Humboldt university, Kronprinzenpalais and many others.
The Kronpinzenpalais, apparently one of Vicky's main residences was damaged during the war, but was rebuild since, although the interiors were completely redone. In fact only the outer shell of the building was preserved. The inside looked like a pretty unimaginative communist-style building. Recently they had a long-running exhibit on Einstein, which apparently generated a lot of money. After that the building was closed off, and now they are redoing the interiors, but I doubt they would be trying to recreate the old rooms. The current trend in Germany is modern, modern, modern. They will probably turn it into something that in 30-40 years from name will have later generations scratching their heads thinking what on earth were these people thinking when they did this? The aweful communist-style People's Palace which looked like a huge ugly department store and had replaced the original Royal Palace has now, after years of dispute, finally been dismanteled. Beleive it or not, there are many, many people who wanted to keep that eye sore, saying that it is part of our history and matches with Berlin's eccentric character. I personally am delighted that it's gone for good. Now, if the city can get their finances together, they will eventually rebuild the original royal palace. But be warned! It is once again going to be the exteriors. I suspect, they would also try to rebuild some of the inside rooms, etc. according to the original plans, as a tourist attraction. But I think, the rest would be completely new and modern design to accomodate practical needs.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 17, 2006, 09:53:48 AM
Thanks for the update for everyone, Johnny, on the status of beloved Unter den Linden and the area surrounding. While I personally agree that the modernist architecture is a less appealing choice for renovated and new buildings in a classic city such a Berin, modernism did get its beginnings in Berlin and hence does seem to have a notable place in the city's past, present, and future.

My hope is that a sizeable percentage of new building and renovation is completed in the "old style" such as the newly completed Bode Museum along with plans for other buildings on museum island. I am also holding out great hope that the Stadt Schloss will, in fact, be rebuilt at least with its originally designed exteriors to provide an external city scape view that engages the past. Vicky never lived there (I believe her 90 days as Empress were spent mostly at Charlottenburg palace and Neues Palais), but she would support its rebuild! The plan for a high end hotel and conferencing centers for the interior may end up being a reasonable compromise. I do hope, nonetheless, that the planners at least rebuild the grand staircase and the white hall, both of which were immensely important architectural and design uniquenesses that future generations should have an opportunity to enjoy.

While it is difficult to accept for those of us who would love to have much of the pre WWII landscape and city scapes in tact, it is an impossible task. Some notable reconstructions exist and will continue to be planned (such as Die Frauenkirche in Dresden), but wars not only bring and end to a certain time and government, but the future is changed forever. Many in Germany prefer the modernist, limited reconstruction position in order to continue the distancing from all things German in history, which so many non-German peoples seem to endorse as well. I wonder if Vicky would have sided with the reconstructionists or the group that wants to wipe the slate clean?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Johnny on November 17, 2006, 06:17:14 PM
Dear HK,

Sorry to disappoint you, but with the notable exception of the Royal Palace which is supposed to be rebuilt looking like the original (I believe it when I see it), practically all other new buildings in Berlin, unless the historical building was still somehow standing, in which case it would be renovated, albeit with lots of modern additions to it, are glass and steel or huge blocks of concrete in the most futuristic designs. As much as I like modern architecture, I think it simply doesn't work in a city like Berlin. I have even wept after seeing a prewar photograph of a certain section of Berlin and realizing what they have done to it. As much as I regret it, I can still accept and understand the buildings built before the reunification. But, I don't think there's any excuse for what they have done since. Just picture the ugliest shopping mall made of green glass and steel right in the middle of the wonderous Cathedral Square in Magdeburg, the capital of the Sachsen-Anhalt federal state, right next to one of the most famous and important midieval cathedrals in Europe. And as if that wasn't enough, they also built a colorful Hundredwasser building right next to it. By the way, when I say they built it in the middle of the square, I mean it literally. They practically destroyed the huge ancient space by building the mall in the middle of it.

One of these days when I have the time I will take some photos of Berlin and post them for all to see.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 09:50:31 PM
I would love to see interiors of Vicky's palace in Berlin (Kronprinz palais)...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Johnny on November 19, 2006, 07:03:40 PM
I would love to see interiors of Vicky's palace in Berlin (Kronprinz palais)...
Sorry to inform you that there is nothing left to see. Just imagine a communist style plain staircase from the 50s leading into various square rooms with white walls. Whether they will recreate the old rooms, now that the building is under rennovation we will have to wait and see. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. Chances are they will turn it into a really modern thing, with lots of glass and minimalistic decorations.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 07:24:27 PM
Indeed...I wonder if there were photos taken inside the palace during Vicky's time there.  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 19, 2007, 10:38:36 AM
i just had to post this pic i found on ebay of Viktoria, Sophie and Margarete
i've never seen it before
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Vickys%20kids/91d0_1_sbl.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 19, 2007, 11:02:03 AM
what does the bi line underneathe their names say? thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on May 19, 2007, 11:29:22 AM
what does the bi line underneathe their names say? thanks!

"Princess Viktoria, afterwards Princess of Schaumburg-Lippe,
Princess Sophie, afterwards Crown Princess of Greece,
Princess Margarete, afterwards Princess of Hesse"
;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 19, 2007, 09:38:23 PM
To say thanks to Cambria--hopefully these aren't too familiar.

Wilhelm, Charlotte & Henry
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/5d_31.jpg)

Moretta, Sophie & Mossy
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/3335347257.jpg)

Vicky & Mossy
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/scan905.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 19, 2007, 09:49:18 PM
OHHHH!!! I'VE NEVER SEEN THOSE!!!! ....sorry....i got so excited i jumped outta my seat almost! thanks so much grandduchessella....i NEVER seen those before!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 19, 2007, 10:30:48 PM
Maybe you'll like these too.  :)

Fritz, Willy & Henry

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/lastscanprussianmen.jpg)

Willy & Henry

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/image651WIIHenry.jpg)

Vicky, Willy & Charly

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/hr0119.jpg)

Moretta & Charly

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/File1305charlymoretta2aaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 19, 2007, 10:44:49 PM
 :o = thats all i can say
 heres one i found a while ago

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Vickys%20kids/WilhelmCharlotteandHeinrich.jpg)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 19, 2007, 11:02:46 PM
I have a good number, primarily because Vicky is my #2 favorite royal.  :) Queen Sophie is also a favorite.

Sophie & Mossy

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/image387.jpg)

Vicky & her 3 youngest daughters in 1887-88

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/4760887770B1.jpg)

Imperial Family 1888

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/71618001031.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 19, 2007, 11:05:06 PM
Fritz with either Willy or Charly (they were both photographed in that cap!)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/img0741.jpg)

Vicky and Moretta

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/image939VickyWaldie.jpg)

Fritz, Vicky, Moretta, Sophie and Mossy in San Remo

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/img679.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Vasiliy on May 20, 2007, 07:46:14 AM

(http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/rich199.jpg)


Who is who ?
And where is "Mossy" ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 20, 2007, 01:06:08 PM
Sitting in chairs in the front row: Moretta and Waldemar

Back row: Henry, Vicky, Fritz with Mossy, Sophie, William and Charlotte

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 21, 2007, 09:46:32 AM
these are terrific photos! thanks to everyone!

wow, how Fritz and Vicky both looked so attractive as a young happy couple with many children. they seem such a family group; Fritz is about the only royal who, in family photos, seems engaged with his children.

Cute little Waldy! Such a tragedy.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
Fritz with his children

with Sophie & Mossy (has to be one of the cutest royal photos ever)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/img477b.jpg)

with William (there's a similar one with Henry)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/446px-Wil2-F1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 21, 2007, 02:17:11 PM
Thank you GD Ella for posting the lovely photos. The last one must be taken at Balmoral? Would love to see if that water fountain is still there!!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 21, 2007, 02:36:25 PM
oh my god that pic is so adorable of fritz and his girls! ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 22, 2007, 02:48:30 PM
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Vickys%20kids/2402789610089397054LRmNrc_ph.jpg)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 23, 2007, 09:59:57 AM
yes, Fritz and his girls is truly one, if not THE, most loveable royal photo ever, especialllly given the timeframe. I've mentioned before that so, so few royals (pre modern times) are ever seen with a smile on their face in a photo, and Fritz dons a few over his life in photos. And in so doing, underscores his essense, I think, as a man of great affection, loyalty, inner peace, and outward grandeur.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 23, 2007, 10:29:36 AM
isn't there another pose from that same sitting?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 23, 2007, 12:22:13 PM
yes, Fritz and his girls is truly one, if not THE, most loveable royal photo ever, especialllly given the timeframe. I've mentioned before that so, so few royals (pre modern times) are ever seen with a smile on their face in a photo, and Fritz dons a few over his life in photos. And in so doing, underscores his essense, I think, as a man of great affection, loyalty, inner peace, and outward grandeur.

So true - a really lovely man and it's clear why Vicky was so in love with him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Vasiliy on May 27, 2007, 11:13:39 AM
I wonder , what language was used in this family ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on May 28, 2007, 09:52:46 AM
I'm certain they spoke both German & English regularly.  Vicky grew up speaking German with her father Prince Albert & her mother also spoke German.  They visited England frequently enough that the children must have known the language quite well.  Bertie, Vicky's younger brother, even spoke English with a faint German accent although he became King Edward VII. Vicky wasn't quite expert in German until after her marriage, as Queen Victoria criticizes her letters home in which she capitalizes verbs as well as nouns, which isn't proper in either language.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 28, 2007, 07:57:39 PM
Yes they spoke German & English regularly. Of course Vicky knew French as well... ::)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 11:35:48 AM
Moretta, Sophie & Mossy
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/3335347257.jpg)



This portrait was amongst the items sold when Moretta had her bankruptcy and items were auctioned off in 1928. I don't know who purchased it though.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 04, 2007, 03:48:08 PM
Thank you for that fascinating bit of trivia Ella! So sad. I would still love to know what support Mossy and Sophie offered there sister during that awful time.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 04, 2007, 07:50:18 PM
Nice picture ! Did you own the drawing ? Wonder who did it ?  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on June 05, 2007, 08:43:59 AM
Fritz with his children

with Sophie & Mossy (has to be one of the cutest royal photos ever)

This picture was most likely taken the same day:

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/linnea12/1874.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 05, 2007, 09:48:18 AM
Nice picture ! Did you own the drawing ? Wonder who did it ?  ???

I own a copy of the drawing now from when it was published in the ILN in 1928 but that's it. I'll have to go and check but I believe it was done by Lenbach.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on June 05, 2007, 01:15:13 PM
thanks linnea! i've been looking for that photo of fritz with the girls! i just love that picture
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on June 09, 2007, 10:10:17 AM
I think of Moretta, Sophie & Mossy as Vicky's "Three Graces", kind of like in Charlotte Zeepvat referring to Victoria, Irene & Ella of Hesse as Alice's "Three Graces".  Willie & Charlotte (& to some point, Henry) gave her so much trouble, but then she has these three sweet daughters who stood by her side & she unceasingly aided them emotionally & with whatever influence she could exert.  So much of Vicky's life has a tragic bent to it, but the great love she gave & received from her mother, father, siblings, husband, & daughters brightens her story.  Whlle enduring Fritz's sickness & death, her daughters stay by her side so that she was never alone.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 09, 2007, 02:18:21 PM
I agree lenelor! Poor Vicky had a hard time but at least Victoria, Sophie and Mossy stuck by her when they could quite easily have followed Willys league! I love them for that!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2007, 08:09:48 PM
Yes...Vicky called them "my trio" !  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Mary R. on June 10, 2007, 10:23:59 PM
Absolutely! Moretta, Mossy, and Sophie were truly a trio. Vicky had trouble when Sophie and the others were married, the trio were separated from her. When Fritz died, Vicky said, "I have my three sweet girls-he loved so much-that are my consolation." :'(  Quite poignant and touching!

Mary R.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2007, 10:55:59 PM
Not only that. Vicky was not as selfish as her mother and would not hear of Mossy as an unmarried daughter. She made sure the last one was out of her hands. A great mom really !  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Mary R. on June 11, 2007, 12:57:30 PM
Absolutely! Her daughters looked to her for guidance and advice during their married life in the foreign courts. Vicky was always looking out for the best interest of her daughters making her seem a constant presence. For instance, she made sure an English midwife was present at the birth of Sophie's first child! Mother of the Year!

Mary R.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 04, 2007, 06:29:14 AM
If you get the chance pay a visit to Schoss Friedrichshof/Castle Friedrichshof - now Schloss Kronberg/Castle Kronberg - not far from Kronberg, a short rail trip from Frankfurt am Main in Germany. It is now a luxury hotel and it is possible to see many of Kaiserin Friedrich''s own paintings there. The castle is remarkably much as she left it with a few alterations. The surrounding park is quite delightful and the food is wonderful.   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 04, 2007, 09:56:38 AM
Can you take a tour without spending the night there?  It seems like the last time I looked at the website it was pretty expensive, but I would LOVE to see Vicky's house.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 05, 2007, 12:48:26 PM
the hotel staff if more than generous about interested people walking about the lobby and grounds. A full tour of the house and special rooms can be arranged without being a guest in the hotel. Upon special arrangements or requests, one may even be able to see vicky's private library. The main staircase is a highlight of the structure with its stained glass window designed in the coat of arms for Vicky and Fritz. One cannot help but feel close to this couple standing on the landing with the colored light from "F and V" beaming on one's face.

The restaurant in the hotel is one of the best i have ever experienced. One must be willing to treat themselves to both Christmas and Birthday gifts all at once though!!! :)

while the home is much as it was when inhabited by Vicky, it has suffered much abuse. After WWII, it was confiscated by the Allies and set up as a temporary headquarters for General Eisenhower. None of the military were very senitive or interested in being careful or concerned about the historic treasure they stomped through. to them, it was a field office and barracks, not much more. as a result, much clean up and restoration was needed and completed.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 05, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
I have spent 2 nights there (in the ex-servant's quarters) and it is worth every penny. If you like golf, it would be even better... ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 05, 2007, 09:40:46 PM
Kaiser Wilhelm's suite is available and has been used by various crowned heads and royals. The late Princess Margaret, sister of Queen Elizabeth II stayed there as well as Queen Silvia of Sweden. The bathroom however is not original. The guide I came across knew the building but not much about Kaisern Friedrich apart from what he had learnt for the tour. I found it a touch amusing realising how little he knew. As for walking in without some sort of intention to have lunch or to stay this is actively discouraged. Hotel guests are a priority and loitering doesn't happen for long. I saw a number of people politely asked to leave.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 06, 2007, 10:17:25 AM
Interesting that your guide told you the bath in William's suite was not original. The guide I had said just the opposite...that the suite including the bath had essentially been untouched since he stayed there. The fixtures etc look vintage late 19th century, and at that time would have been very, very state of the art. I'll do some more checking to see if any clarification can be had.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 06, 2007, 04:55:15 PM
Please do.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2007, 07:57:26 PM
They also have a small free booklet that showed the Schloss as it was after the war. The Hesses did a wonderful renovation job.  ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 03:15:50 AM
Yes they had to do some repairs caused during the American occupation ... some things were removed without legal consent by light fingered ones ... thankfully much has been returned. What you can see today is really quite remarkable. Kaiserin Friedrich would still be able to recognise her old place and be mostly pleased. It really is a gem even if Frankfurt am Main is mostly forgetable.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2007, 04:23:01 AM
Indeed...I felt sometimes as being walked into a time warp.  :o
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 06:59:19 AM
Well that is what brings guests to stay there. They go back in time and enjoy the experience. The Kaiserin Friedrich was quite a lady and a very gifted artist and collector and this castle is quite unique in being a former imperial residence now a hotel. There are not many of its kind still largely intact with the feeling that the owner has just stepped out.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2007, 08:02:06 PM
Yes...I felt that when I was there. It seems like the spirit of Vicky still resides there.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 12:49:35 AM
You are 100% right. She is so much of a presence there even though over 100 years have passed since her death. I hope you have also had the opportunity to visit the imperial mausoleum at the Friedenskirche at Postdam. It is really quite a special and deeply moving place. Vicky and her Fritz are at rest side by side and on either side of the main altar are their beloved sons Sigismund and Waldemar. It is really so touching.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2007, 02:16:47 AM
Yes...however the crypt was not always open to the public. It was closed for certain months of the year.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 17, 2007, 12:41:52 PM
the recent comments on vicky's home are all very true and meaningful, IMO. I happened to be there during the 100th anniversary commemoratives of her passiing in 2001. the entire hotel/home was at its most perfect condition for the ceremonies although I was disappointed to have seen the grand portrait of Fritz had to be placed in a stairwell as there was no room for him among the many artifacts of vicky.

Her wash towels are even there. most enjoyable as a 'walk in the past'.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 08:55:18 PM
Eric, Friedrich III and his consort Victoria are not buried in any crypt. They are buried in a Mausoleum attached to the Friedenskirche.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 22, 2007, 03:32:36 PM
Where do you have evidence Vicky was opposed to William's visits? I have always read that she appreciated his attention during her years at Friederickhof, even though he did annoy her by dropping in unexpectedly at times.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2007, 08:11:44 PM
From her letters to QV and Sophie. It was especially tiring since he usually brings an entorage. At the end of the visit Vicky usually feels drained. It is not that she OPPOSED her son's visits, but too often and his demanding ways made the experience to be dreaded. Just like Willy's visits to England !  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 23, 2007, 05:39:20 AM
Sadly Wilhelm II was not the most sublte of diplomatic human being.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 23, 2007, 09:41:43 AM
Hi,

I guess that when The Kaiser comes calling, you cannot greet him at the front door with, "Sorry, I'm not receiving today!"...  Even if you're The Kaiser's mother.....

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 23, 2007, 10:18:57 AM
well he did have a rather exaggerated sense of his own self importance ... he surely must have had a lot of time to reflect on this during his very long exile in the Netherlands ... thank goodness his mother never had to see world war one and the collapse of the german monarchy .. that would have been too much for her
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 23, 2007, 11:45:49 AM
....as it likely would have been for her mother, QV. I've heard theories that Beatrice's plundering of QV's letters were largely due to QV's positive, almost Germanophile, feelings about her beloved husband's homeland and her own heritage.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 11:23:48 PM
Queen Victoria tried to maintain good relations with Germany but could see difficulties ahead. I doubt there would have been war with Germany if her health had been better and she had been granted a longer lifespan.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: TampaBay on August 25, 2007, 08:02:50 AM
Or if Edaward VII and Fritz had lived longer too.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 25, 2007, 12:12:20 PM
Most definitely Friedrich III would have wanted peace. Edward VII was more aligned with the French.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 25, 2007, 10:39:02 PM
yes, due in large part to his wife who hated Germany with great zeal for many reasons...her native country's loss in 1866 which she never ever got over, her resentment that her father in law was so beloved and German, her annoyance that she was limited in her abilty to more openly show her despise for Germany while QV was alive, and her sister's constant reinforcement that Germany was 'the enemy'.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 12:20:57 AM
Alexandra had every right to be upset over the Prussian plundering of Denmark. She may have had some influence with her husband Edward VII. Britain really only started to adopt a policy against Germany under his reign. Of course Friedrich III would have aligned Germany more with Britain. Wilhelm II unfortunately started an enormous arms race. It all ended in grief.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 09:50:14 PM
Welll...Germany's mobiliation started with Bismark. Vicky was all for peace.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 26, 2007, 10:07:18 PM
What ended the Prussian/Danish war was hardly a "plundering of Denmark" by most standards. In fact, the wars with France, Austria, and Denmark resulted in very small spoils and reparations claimed by the victor when measured against most wars, largely due to Bismarck's hope to gain 'hand shakes after the fights' style alliances vs stomping further on the beaten foes.

Alexandra obviously was free to feel whatever she wanted--justified or not. But the fact remains that her married-into family was very German and she did nothing to help patch any ill feelings or wounds during the post Danish/Prussian conflict. She did the opposite.

It is also unfair to suggest WII "unfortunately started an enormous arms race" since Wilhelm II and Germany was years behind Great Britain in armament build ups. GB amassed their military might way before other nations did...that's how they were able to grab 75% of the world's land mass while the rest of the world somewhat helplessly watched.

with the industrial revolution, England figured it out first that power in terms of natural resources and cheap labor was the ticket to global economic and political control; and obtaining natural resources and cheap labor came largely from military/naval might.  The nations able to follow England's lead did so by building up their own arms (and global reaching), hoping such a strategy would benefit them as well. And it did in many cases..until WWI turned things upside down.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 10:27:18 PM
Welll...Alexandra can hardly be blamed for being loyal to her country. Empress Augusta was very rude to her when she steeled herself to Berlin.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 27, 2007, 08:35:38 AM
Welll...Alexandra can hardly be blamed for being loyal to her country. Empress Augusta was very rude to her when she steeled herself to Berlin.  :(


Perhaps my comments were not so clear. I was not "blaming" Alexandra for being "loyal". Rather, I simply communicated the facts of her bahavior and attitudes, and that she held a long-term grudge. Her energies directed in that arena may well have been more useful to peace, as Vicky would have endorsed, had she sought to calm the waters rather than stir the pot.

by the by..."her country" was England, no? once she married her "loyalties" were to England and England's interests.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 09:05:32 PM
Alix never cease to be less Danish (as her Holidays back home had shown) but she adoped England and they took her to their hearts.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on August 28, 2007, 06:12:17 AM
The Danes would hardly claim the territories ripped away from their country were 'small'. There was general jubilation when part of these territories were returned after negotiations following the end of world war one. In fact King Christian X famously rode his horse across the reclaimed part of the Danish kingdom.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 28, 2007, 01:54:47 PM
The Danes would hardly claim the territories ripped away from their country were 'small'. There was general jubilation when part of these territories were returned after negotiations following the end of world war one. In fact King Christian X famously rode his horse across the reclaimed part of the Danish kingdom.


well, it somewhat goes without saying that people/nations who lose something in a fight (war, law suit, divorce court etc) consider it unfair and of greater consequence than those on the side of the victors or independent third parties. Fact is that the duchies were nearly completely ethnic German, the majority of whose people wanted to be within the greater German confederation than under Denmark. The more contemporary concept of self determination would have granted such lands to Prussia without a war.

Nonetheless, the key point is that Alexandra embarked on a vendetta strategy, not dissimilar to the middle east problems of the past 60 years, wherein one-upmanship and revenge was the goal. Such a political direction leads to a string of conflicts that never really get resolved in order to move forward peacefully, without the constant threat of more conflicts. Vicky was clearly not in this frame of mind and she and her sister in law were in complete opposites in this regard--Vicky the peacemaker/reconciler of differences vs Alexandra the embittered dissenter.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2007, 08:26:56 PM
Well...I don't think Vicky was always the peacemaker. When she & Fritz met the Wales in Germany after the Danish war, Fritaz wore his war medals much to the distress of Alix. Eventually Alix and Vicky/Fritz did make up in the end, but Willy (a diciple of Bismark) was always trouble in the family (that was quite apart from the vendatta). It is natural for her not to trust the German fighting machine (which is Germany) that left her family and relatives (The Hesses (both branches) and the Hanoverians) dispossed. It is also Willy's mobilaztion that led to WWI. That should not be blamed on Alix's door. Alix, who always see things personally on the eve of WWI told her son George V. 'I have always told you that he is a bad man, now perhaps you would believe me".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2007, 11:37:43 AM
Well...I don't think Vicky was always the peacemaker. When she & Fritz met the Wales in Germany after the Danish war, Fritaz wore his war medals much to the distress of Alix. Eventually Alix and Vicky/Fritz did make up in the end, but Willy (a diciple of Bismark) was always trouble in the family (that was quite apart from the vendatta). It is natural for her not to trust the German fighting machine (which is Germany) that left her family and relatives (The Hesses (both branches) and the Hanoverians) dispossed. It is also Willy's mobilaztion that led to WWI. That should not be blamed on Alix's door. Alix, who always see things personally on the eve of WWI told her son George V. 'I have always told you that he is a bad man, now perhaps you would believe me".

Agree with most of your points; Fritz did wear his medals at that encounter and realized his faux pas. Alix and her sister continuously, on the other hand, conducted themselves similarly and never let up.

one of your comments is however, incorrect. you say "it was Willy's mobiization that led to WWI". this is not the case. it is indisputable that Russia and France mobilized first, causing Willy to react or overreact as the case may be. Had Russia not mobiized (which in that time was considered a declaration of war), Wiilliam would not have done so. In fact, when Germany did respond in kind, William was against his ministers, stating famously "gentelmen this is a mistake".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2007, 08:43:28 PM
Still...Willy was not against the military parasdres that show off Germany's might that sent the arms race going. Vicky tried in her time to sent olive branches to France (a country she had loved since a girl), but Willy never listened.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2007, 10:52:22 PM
hey, nearly every nation of the first world has had military parades, no big deal and certainly not unique to Germany or William's reign. This seems moot.

the bottom line point remains...Vicky and Fritz would have been peacemakers, but they would still have had to deal with Alix and her staunch anti-German position that was completely unyeilding. Without QV to mediate, I suspect Alix would have turned on Vicky and Fritz (had they lived) as well during the reign of her husband.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2007, 11:49:11 PM
I don't think so...I read somewhere that Fritz talked about returning North Shleswig to Denmark if the people there would vote in favour of it with Alix. The fact that it did happen, but needed a war to realise it. Willy's succression made the situation from bad to worse.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 30, 2007, 08:49:03 AM
as i mentioned in an earlier post, the idea of 'self determination' is more contemporary than traditional. Recall the Bosnian/Serbian war?   ;)

The duchies of Schlesweg and Holstein were not majority Danish and with the monarch change in Denmark, only a minority of the populous supported a Danish rule. North Scheswig was only a smaller area and it may have been more skewed to Danish ethnicity, but you can peel that onion back so far before it becomes absurd. does one go block by block to determine majority ethnicity and then create nations?

Sadly, if Fritz and Vicky had been advocates of 'self determination' and had been on the scene all during the early to mid 20th century, BOTH wars would have been avoided, particularly in view of the majority German ethnicity in Alsace Lorraine and the free state of Danzig.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2007, 07:53:09 PM
The fact that both Vicky & Fritz are into dialogue with Alix made confrontation unlikely. Fritz already made his case with Dagmar, when he attended her wedding in St.Petersburg. Had he been Emperor, the Great War would have been avoided as both he and Bismark knew the limits of what Britian & France can take without going into war.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 31, 2007, 01:02:22 AM
You make the point that Alix had signficant influence, and I agree completely.

Further, Willy's influence was much more bark than bite and it was a deadly shame that his relatives assisted in heating up the pressure cooker because of their significant annoyances with his personality quirks while millions had to lose their lives because of it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2007, 04:00:31 AM
She did...So much so that Bertie refused to let her see the dispatch boxes. However he told his son George that his wife May can see them.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 31, 2007, 10:32:28 AM
indeed. Alix and her sister were essentially committed to as long term PR campaign against Germany. It kicked into high gear once QV and Vicky were gone, as it would have clearly been not only offensive to them, but they would have opposed Alix's positions and actions greatly. A powerful, popular spouse of a leader CAN make a huge impact not only on public opinioin but on political/social decisions, and the growing anti-german sentiments were both fueled and in some cases created by her. All together they helped greatly in turning Great Britain away from a friendly relaitonship with Germany and paving the path to war.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 02, 2007, 09:21:26 PM
I don't think it was one sided. Prussia/Germany was building itself into a military state. The other countries would be fools if they don't plan ahead. Bertie and Sasha hoped the alliances would put Germany in its place, but it did not work. Had Vicky been alive, she would have seen that coming.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 03, 2007, 09:32:04 AM
Yes it is good that she did not see it happen. She would have been heartbroken. Nicholas II bore much of the blame as his mobilisation of forces was considered a declaration of war by the Kaiser who repeatedly warned him of the consequences.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 03, 2007, 03:16:04 PM
thank you dimitri for pointing this out as I have done many times before yet this very critical fact is so often disregarded and/or ignored.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 09, 2007, 12:09:01 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/Victoriaplusfeo.jpg)

Another 4 generations picture: Vicky, Charly, Feo & Queen Victoria.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
How different things would have been for Vicky and Queen Victoria if Prince Albert had lived as long as his older brother. Both Mother and daughter knew the sadness of being widows for an extended period and also losing children. No wonder Vicky and Queen Victoria were so very close. Fate was cruel to both women.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 09, 2007, 09:31:48 PM
Well...At least QV was a Queen, Vicky was a prisoner in Berlin who had to endure attacks by her children and Bismark.  :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 10, 2007, 02:29:11 PM
I wouldn't say Vicky was a "prisoner" in Berlin. She accepted as Crown Princess many restrictions as well as opportunities to her life. With affluence and status come some regs, not unlike most of her contemporaries.

i also do not think fate was particularly cruel to these two, very favorite, endeared Mother and daughter combination. yes, they lost husbands way too early; not uncommon. Vicky lost chidren; few did not. they had their rebellious, ungrateful children; who didn't? Looking at them with a 'glass is half full' orientation, they had wonderful lives of privilege that they crafted and directed in good ways for benefits of many. they each left legacies that exist to this day of positive, honorable, and compassionate leadership and views which are to this day longed for among the average populations of the world to have in their current leaders.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 10, 2007, 08:02:23 PM
Well...After Fritz died. QV invited her daughter hom for a holiday. After years of abuse in the German press funded by Bismark, Vicky was touched to see that the British people welcomed her in open arms. She was STILL "their" Princess Royal ! Tears of pride stream down her face. She later told her nieces if it wasn't her desire to keep her husband's ideals and memory alive, she would have gladly retire back to her homeland...in the bosem of her family.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 11, 2007, 12:28:11 AM
Yes there is no doubt she was treated abominably by Bismarck and his fellow Junker travellers. The tragedy for Germany is their narrow minded view of Germany ultimately contributed to the collapse of the Hohenzollern monarchy.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 11, 2007, 11:09:58 AM
Bismarck did treat Vicky badly as did the press but that happened to many and she was a big girl who was able to handle it. Bismarck came calling with his tail between his legs in the end.

Germany was no more narrow minded than any of the powers of the era. In fact, with her leading role in the arts, music, science, social welfare, education, philosophy, and political thinking, Germany was far less narrow minded as a culture than most. What the aristocracy lacked was the willingness to embrace the rapid, diverse changes that were taking place under their noses.

The war, not their aversion to modernize, led to their downfall. had the war not crushed everything in the social structure, the hohenzollerns would have plotted along and sidelined slowly like every other institution that got in the way of 20th century industrial and capitalist power machines.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 11, 2007, 12:29:24 PM
Well perhaps. It was the power held by the German Kaiser and its unwise usage that caused many problems. This needed to be handled carefully and gradually changed. The war was an enormous mistake. Maintaining the narrow form of monarchy without changed allowed for a greater role for the military in Wilhelmine Germany than should have been the case. Evolution ceased and militarism ran rampant. It is not surprising with the collapse of the monarchy that its successor state was constantly challenged by a military who did not wish to see democracy flourish. This was also the same military that made no attempt to stand up to the excesses of the Third Reich, even before the invasion of Poland in 1939. Democracy really only came to Germany as a result of it being imposed after the end of the second world war. It was not part of the natural way of governance before then. That is why Friedrich III was needed so much as change would have occurred under him. Sadly it did not and the results are only too well known.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on September 12, 2007, 07:23:35 AM
I question the suggestion that democracy might have prevented or reduced militarism, as Great Britain had a constitutional democracy at the same time and was just as keen to go to war.  Indeed, Germans of the middle and lower classes were also keen on war - it took the actual slaughter of modern warfare to convince people generally that this was a bad idea.  While Wilhelm II was very much more obviously preoccupied with the military compared to his father, Friedrich III was a very good soldier - much underrated - and may well have found himself caught up in the patriotic fevour which swept all nations involved in the conflict.  Whether - had he lived that long - he would have introduced a form of democracy which would have been more resilient to the political upheavals caused by WWI is an interesting question.  With an autocratic government, the autocrat has to bear the responsibility for a war and all that entails.  In a democracy, everyone bears the responsibility - a government might bear the blame and fall, but another is elected and the transition is seamless.  I don't think Wilhem II or Nicholas II or Franz Joseph were totally responsible for what was really a very popular war, but they (or their heirs) had to take the blame when their countries either lost or could not sustain the economic and social burden.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 12, 2007, 08:49:09 AM
Well put, CountessKate. You make excellent points and bring reality to the discussion. It is ever so true that a more democratic/liberal government/society is no less inclined to nationalism in the form of war or empire-building. Had Great Britain been attacked by African nations, India, Australia, Caribbean islands, etc, and thereby won the empire as a liberal state simply defending herself, GB's position that she is blameless in WWI could be considered debateable. But, that is far from the case.

In fact, Britain's excuse for declaring war on Germany was the breach by Germany of Belgium sovereignty, considered by many historians and policticals to have been a lame excuse and obvious desire to go to war regardless of the reason. further, the gross hypocrisy of the excuse is indisputable when England later tramped through Holland without Dutch approval and specifically against Dutch demands not to do so.

Fritz and Vicky would have had an opportunity to guide the winds of change in different directions, perhaps, but it is not necessarily an automatic surety that the Germanophobes in GB and the Anglophobes in Berlin would have been overcome.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 12, 2007, 09:02:16 AM
I doubt very much that Britain would have entered world war one at all unless the Germans had violated Belgian neutrality. It was extremely foolish of Germany to do so.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2007, 08:02:59 PM
Which is what makes the lost opportunity of Fritz & Vicky so sad. If only they were given the chance for democracy, but instead followed militarism forged by Bismark which led to all following wars.  :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Bonapartist on October 05, 2007, 05:06:18 PM
The Prncess Royal/Empress did have many sad aspects to her life but she also had much joy.  She was a wonderfull woman. Her and Frederick's fate was sad.  It is also true that what comes around goes around.  Vicky's letters to her mother reveal a rather harsh view of the disasters that befelll Napoleon III and Eugenie.  Thankfully Eugenie never knew of that attitude and was a good friend to the Empress Frederick until her death.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2007, 08:35:18 PM
Vicky the politican is very different from Vicky the woman. She was a personal friend of Empress Eugenie, but was critical of her political influrences and its effect on France. Vicky was also critical of her nieces Alicky, Ella and May (of Teck).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: pandora on October 06, 2007, 04:54:52 PM
As with many in this thread, I am very impressed with the Empress Frederick. She seemed very knowledgeable in a wide range of topics. Dealing with Bismarck as she had to would have been enough to send me over the edge, per se.

If anyone has suggestions on books to read about her, I would be most appreciative.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on October 06, 2007, 06:26:30 PM
I think the best bio on Vicky is An Uncommon Woman by Hannah Pakula.  There's also Dearest Vicky, Darling Fritz, by John Van der Kiste, which is a slimmer book about her and Fritz.  Several volumes of letters between Vicky and QV have been published, as well.  Daphne Bennet has written a biography on her as well, which I've read but forgotten the name of said book. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on October 06, 2007, 08:29:25 PM
In case new contributors have not read all of this thread, it is possible to visit the last home of Kaiserin Friedrich in Germany. It is now run as a luxury hotel called Schloss Hotel Kronberg. It's easy to reach. You take the train from Frankfurt am Main to Kronberg. There is a taxi rank outside the station. It's a considerable walk there otherwise. Schloss Hotel Kronberg was once called Schloss Friedrichshof. Schloss in German means Castle. The castle has of course changed in some ways since the time of Kaiserin Friedrich. There is still much left of enormous interest. It is a very impressive place both outside and inside and to stay there is indeed a treat. The food is superb and it is extremely comfortable. The gardens are quite delightful and if you are a golfing enthusiast you will have an incredible time.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 06, 2007, 09:49:05 PM
I think the best bio on Vicky is An Uncommon Woman by Hannah Pakula.  There's also Dearest Vicky, Darling Fritz, by John Van der Kiste, which is a slimmer book about her and Fritz.  Several volumes of letters between Vicky and QV have been published, as well.  Daphne Bennet has written a biography on her as well, which I've read but forgotten the name of said book. 

I second this--An Uncommon Woman is, in my opinion, one of the better royal bios period. Hannah Pakula also wrote the best (again, in my opinion) bio on  Queen Marie of Romania. It's a shame she hasn't written more, nor does it seem she will. She seems to have stopped after her husband, famed director/writer Alan J Pakula (To Kill a Mockingbird, Sophie's Choice, All the Presiden'ts Men), was killed in an auto accident about a decade ago. The early volume on Wilhelm II by John Rohl (very expensive but available in some libraries if you're lucky or through interlibrary loan if you're not) is almost a bio on Vicky itself, it's so detailed in their early relationship.

There's an interview with Hannah Pakula discussing the book on the Charlie Rose show:

http://www.charlierose.com/guests/hannah-pakula

You go to about the 43-44 min mark--she's the last of 3 guests. She apparently had future projects in mind (she wouldn't say what they were so I guess we'll never know) only that QV wasn't one of them as she'd been written on so often and so well. Makes you think another deserving royal is lacking a biography due to her work stopping.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on October 07, 2007, 06:24:11 AM
Just wanted to agree with you totally about Hannah Pakula as a royal biograph. She writes extremely well and does her research unlike some others who shall remain nameless.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 08, 2007, 07:21:12 AM
Some of the best things to read about Vicky are her own words - many of the thousands of letters she exchanged with Queen Victoria have been published in seven volumes, and are still very lively and readable today - and her letters to her daughter Sophie called (I think) 'The Empress Frederick writes to Sophie' are particularly good.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2007, 08:43:28 PM
Indeed ! I wondered if her letters to Mossy would be published one day (most likely still in the Hesse Family collection).  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 11, 2007, 02:44:26 PM
yes, the letters between and among the family members are, perhaps, more telling about the times and situations than the histories written by third parties. Of course, that begs the question of what was in the volumes of letters princess Beatrice took upon herself to destroy. Some people I have talked to feel many of QV's comments as well as those of Vicky were very complimentary about Germany and things German and as such, during the period when Beatrice went on her sanitation spree, those thoughts were "verboten". We'll never really know.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2007, 08:27:16 PM
Yes...But fortunately Vicky's letters to her children were not destroyed. She spoke more canded about politics to Sophie for example.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: pandora on October 13, 2007, 08:53:00 AM
Thank you all for your reading suggestions as they are very helpful. I'm on a 'seek-n-find mission' for a few of these books this weekend.

Just a side note of a personal nature, not only would Bismarck driven me to the edge but her older children needed a good, stern kick in the bum, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 14, 2007, 10:15:32 PM
As Queen Victoria would have said !  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 16, 2007, 11:12:37 AM
Well QV said that about her own children too on occasion.

Regarding her letters, it does remain true that the "holes" in history created by the destroyed letters (including ones Vicky sent to QV) will never be completely mitigated. Bea went to her grave with the secrets and as such we can hypothesize that the letters included some real doozies that England would not want to have be known.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2007, 02:37:33 PM
There were also many letters that Vicky and Queen Victoria requested that the other destroy at the time. These created gaps that Roger Fulford sometimes attempted to fill in when he published some of their letters to each other.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
I suspect they deal with politics...things they did not want known they knew.  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 17, 2007, 10:59:58 AM
My own suspiciion is that the destroyed letters probably contained thoughts and comments that would have been more embarrassing to the British royal family than the German royal family. QV had more to lose than Vicky, it would seem. And QV had a never-ending tug at her heart for things German as she saw in such images of her beloved husband. had the letters been filled with anti German type sentiments and dialogue, Beatrice would have flaunted such during and after WWII as another means to help validate the war and victory. So, if one was to look at the trashing of the letters as a "crime", one would have to consider motive. There would be no motive if the letters paralleled current public opinion, but great motive if QV and her family appeared to be too impressed with the enemy.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 17, 2007, 11:27:03 AM
I know of no incidence of Beatrice destroying any of the letters between QV and Vicky. Vicky did at times ask her mother to destroy some letters (her thoughts on Bismarcks' passing for example) or to "scratch out with her pen" certain passages. I think Vicky did this to protect herself more than anything. QV did advise her to write about her health on a seperate sheet of paper.  Vicky was not well liked and some of her views where rather controversial and could have damaged her. She was frightened of any "leaks", which did occur once when a letter she sent to her mother somehow got out and QV had to reassure her it had not happened her end (perhaps some disloyal servant/spy of Vickys.

Interestingly QV did not destroy some letters that Vicky specifically asked her too.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 17, 2007, 06:36:29 PM
I thought it was a well documented fact that Beatrice edited, rewrote, and destroyed parts of QVs papers including letters. is this not so? I even recall Queen Elizabeth stating such in an interview about royal history.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 17, 2007, 08:55:41 PM
It was her journals that she'd kept from childhood right up until her death (having a lady-in-waiting or relative writing for her as she grew frailer) that Beatrice edited.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: The Patrician on October 22, 2007, 01:46:52 PM
I have certainly seen it written that Princess Beatrice destroyed much of Q V's correspondence with her Son Alfred.  They had a difficult relationship once he reached adulthood.  She found him 'much wanting'.  He did not take kindly to her constant interference and the tone of many of her letters and and was less concilliatory than the rest of her children.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2007, 10:36:11 PM
I wonder about her letters to Marie Coburg. That should be interesting as both women adopted a tell-it-like-it-is attitude.  ::)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 23, 2007, 01:06:23 PM
It is in fact interesting that so much of Vicky's correspondence with her mother survived, given that the general sentiment of the times was for wholesale conflagration of personal writings.  Beatrice was Queen Victoria's literary executor and whatever we feel today about what she did with her mother's journals, it is pretty certain that Queen Victoria would have approved.  From her letters to Vicky, it looks as if Victoria expected her daughter to take a much more destructive line with the letters, keeping only the most 'historical' and impersonal, and the thought of other people reading intimate/indiscreet matters would have been anathema.  While the most outspoken letters seem to have been destroyed, there's still quite a bit where Queen Victoria has instructed her daughter to 'burn this' which clearly she didn't!  Vicky's agenda seems to have been to preserve her reputation for posterity, after the blackening of her name by Bismark and her son as anti-German.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2007, 09:32:17 PM
Indeed ! I like Vicky's style of writing very much.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 24, 2007, 01:46:03 AM
Well Vicky herself said she wanted her letters to survive as she never kept a journal and the letters were a record of her life in Germany!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2007, 05:30:15 AM
Hmmm...Even though she did wrote to many people and not just to her mother and daughter... ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2007, 09:21:37 AM
we feel today about what she did with her mother's journals, it is pretty certain that Queen Victoria would have approved. 


How can this be known? It seems counter intuitive. QV was in mourning and suffered depression, did she not? That could explain why she may have written things down that she knew were no-nos. But, that is much conjecture. I rather think QV knew what she was writing and would have stood behind it for all time. I think that Beatrice took a next-generation approach, as happens today, and decided to construct a historical view that worked for the times and situtaion.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 24, 2007, 10:32:42 AM
Hmmm...Even though she did wrote to many people and not just to her mother and daughter... ???

Whats that got to do with anything?

Herrkaiser - we will never know weather QV would have approved or not. What we do know is that Beatrice was completeing her mothers wishes and that's good enough.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2007, 09:10:24 PM
No ! We are taking about Vicky and her letters...which should included a lot more than just those to her mother & daughter. It would be a joy if more of her corresponces surfaced.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 27, 2007, 05:23:31 AM
I've just been reading the interesting biography of Lord Esher by James Lees-Milne, in which he lists the destruction of a good many letters of Queen Victoria's by King Edward - so it was not just Beatrice who was responsible for this.  In particular, he burnt letters about private family business, including letters relating to Vicky's marriage, letters to Disraeli (not in fact his to burn, since they belonged to Lord Rothschild), letters about the Lady Flora Hastings affair (where Queen Victoria had behaved very shabbily) and correspondence with Lord Granville (who reported on the doings of Lord Palmerston, whom neither Victoria nor Albert trusted, and who did not confide in them - but it wasn't correct for them to engage in this sort of correspondence).  Beatrice destroyed Queen Victoria's letters to Prince Alfred and Princess Alice, who had died before Queen Victoria (there is no mention of her letters to Prince Leopold).  Presumably her letters to Vicky survived because they were sent to her after Queen Victoria's death and she chose to keep them.  In all this destruction, discretion was clearly the aim and the interest of posterity a very long way behind.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 28, 2007, 10:14:02 PM
I don't think Beatrice dared to touch Vicky's letters since she knew that she wanted to use them to vindicate her name.  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 29, 2007, 10:02:09 AM
In all this destruction, discretion was clearly the aim and the interest of posterity a very long way behind.


As so goes much of historical documentation. Even the small "tweaks" of the truth by destroying evidence or changing it to save some personal indiscretion can, over time, seemingly create a signficantly different view of a person, situation, or era.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: eejm on November 25, 2007, 06:49:21 PM

I thought all of Vicky's correspondence was sent to Britain with Edward VII via Ponsonby after Vicky's last visit with him?  This was to get it away from Wilhelm II...or was it just the correspondence from QV?  

I think it's a shame that Vicky's tenure as Empress was so short.  She and Fritz may have helped avoid a lot of the conflict Germany had with the rest of the world in the 20th century if they were able to rule a bit longer, possibly mend some fences with their son.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 26, 2007, 02:01:43 AM

Tdora what a honour for you to share your birthday with Vicky!! During the second world war, after Mossy had moved out of the castle I believe, Friedrichshof was noted by Anthony Blunt (later to be busted as a KGB spy) to be in a mess with Vicky personal papers lying around for all to see including letters to and from her mother! Thankfully George VI's librarian was given permission to visit the castle and rescue the precious papers, I wonder if Queen Mary somewhere had a hand in this.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Tdora1 on November 26, 2007, 08:50:02 AM
Eddieboy - thank you!  Yes, the Anthony Blunt connection was a rapidly-organised dash during the end days of the war to Friedrichshof to retrieve documents. The accepted story is that the endeavour was to retrieve Vicky's papers. But even if any were left behind, why the urgency at such a difficult time?  The theory I have: (that was not pointed out in the source I read probably because they didn't know anything about Vicky's descendants) - the place was bequeathed to Mossy; one or some of her son(s) (the Hesse-Kassel) were heavily involved with the Nazis. The Dukes of Kent and Windsor were known to have had dubious continental family contacts leading up to WW2 regarding the absolute avoidance of war (which some argue were tantamount to treason in intent if not in execution) and I wonder if THAT was the real motivation behind scampering and rummaging for who-knows-what was lying around..?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 26, 2007, 12:49:24 PM
You're welcome honey - your posts are always a pleasure to read

The accepted story is that the endeavour was to retrieve Vicky's papers. But even if any were left behind, why the urgency at such a difficult time? 

Several reasons for this. The castle was occupied at this time by the army who where no doubt doing a lot of snooping about (they discovered and helped themselves to the Hesse jewels hidden in the cellar). Vickys letters to and from her mother where literally lying about for anyone to see and pocket which is why permission was given to remove archive material, sooner rather than later. I find it quite incredible that Vickys personal papers where lying around for all to see. I suppose with war on Vickys family had more pressing concerns...

Sad to think of the castle in such a mess when Vicky loved it and always kept it in "apple pie order"! Would have been fascinating to explore though!!

I see your point Tdora but I do think this was more for historical importance which is why I wonder if Queen Mary had a hand in it. Also Blunt was keenly interested in The Royal Collection and was Surveyor of the King's Pictures....

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 26, 2007, 02:50:24 PM


I also think it is unfair to suggest that "Germany" underappreciated Vicky. her role as crown princess did not afford her great exposure and the difficulties she experienced with the ruling class did not reflect that of the general population. Fritz, too, had problems with the royal hierarchy, but was ever so beloved by the population of common folk. Vicky did not have any opportunity to 'show her stuff'. Their reign was not only too short, it was utterly and completely insiginficant and irrelevant. 99 days as the wife of a dying man hardly allows anyone to create an image, role, or legacy amongst the nation of subjects.

When leaders/celebrities lives/roles are cut short, all that history tends to have is the most recent highlight and in Vicky's case, it is a mourning widow instead of what could have been. That is not the fault of the German people, rather cruel fate.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2007, 08:22:01 PM
Indeed ! Vicjy was victim to the propaganda machine that Bismark used to blacken her name. The "real" people did not have the opportunity to know the real Vicky and her hopes & ideals for a united Germany. It was only now that documents and serious research is being done on this misunderstood and obsure royal. I think John Rohl's books on Willy also created interests on Vicky herself.  :o
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 27, 2007, 10:09:39 AM

Kaiserin Friedrich was a great lady  :)

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9791/12275stdod2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)




Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Tdora1 on November 28, 2007, 04:41:27 AM
Recalling that Vicky once wrote of her daughter Charlotte (re the latter's post-pubertal figure) that she inter alia "has immense upper arms" I can't help noticing in Laura's posted photo above that Vicky seems to fill the sleeve of her dress quite amply! She was often frustrated by her shortness and tendency to gain weight, and complained - albeit amusedly and with quite charming self-deprecation - that she became quite matronly about the figure at such a young age. Her figure did appear to vary over the years though, especially when her child-bearing days ended, and after Friedrich died she became quite gaunt-looking for a while.                                                                                          Vicky was as quick to acknowledge and admire elegant figures of the women she would meet as she was to criticise the looks of not only herself but her children too! (she puts me in mind of the hilarious country song by Patsy Cline  - duetting with a male singer whose name escapes me - titled "You're The Reason Our Kids Are Ugly") - not that she ever would criticise her beloved Fritz, its just the unusual frankness of a parent that is rather shocking to modern views on child-rearing and the importance of self-esteem blah blah.                                                                 As a 5'1" titch myself who was a fat kid and still struggles to keep it under 120lbs, I identify with Vicky on this one - as with many other issues, battles and interests she had throughout her eventful life. Aye, she had her faults as do we all but to me she was a true one-off especially among her royal female contemporariees and I'm especially grateful for Hanna Pakula's excellent biog "An Uncommon Woman" as well as all the interesting info and shared enthusiams here at the AP.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 28, 2007, 01:07:19 PM

I was wondering last night, exactly what papers where rescued from Friedrichshof during the war? We know there where letters to and from QV and Vicky but why where these not amongst the letters rescued by Ponsoby a good 40 or so years earlier?? The only reference I have seen is that it was "archive material" Interesting to speculate...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: TampaBay on November 28, 2007, 06:47:13 PM
One of the previous posters noted  problems Fritz had with the aristocracy...government...Could someone please elaborate on these problems?

Thanks,

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2007, 08:52:33 PM
I think as a liberal Fritz has enemies in the Junker class headed by Bismark... :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Tdora1 on November 29, 2007, 04:12:37 PM
                                                      The 1860's were a trying time for royal ladies - copious fertility and the sort of beswagged dresses that most people would quail from hanging over the window did for many of them (it also saw the end of Alexandra PoW's decent hairdos too). Vicky was a firm believer in horseback riding Isidesaddle of course *shock*) as  a way of regaining one's pre-natal figure. Didn't work really...though given the extremely limited options for exercise available to a Prussian Princess - who was nethertheless expected to develop legs of steel to stand through the interminable Berlin court functions - she was ahead of her contemporaries on the need for exercise there.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 29, 2007, 05:09:29 PM
yes, I agree and have read that Vicky was eager to maintain some semblance of exercise and she tried to instil this in her children. However, I have not read nor can I find anything that speaks to her opinion about smoking. Most men of the court were heavy smokers, particularly cigars, as was unser Fritz. did his smoking annoy her? did she ever join in?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Tdora1 on November 29, 2007, 05:19:16 PM
Oh, I daresay Vicky wrote pages of passionately well-argued reasons not to smoke to each and every one of them. And got nowhere. I can just see her visiting sisters (and certain nieces) lookin forlornly about the Taunus for midges and mosquitos to give them their contemporary reason for absolutely having to spark up despite the diminutive disapproval sent their way. I cannot see Vicky criticising her Friedrich for smoking publicy though she probably gave him some well-reasoned talkings-to when she got him to herself! I would say, then, that Vicky would no sooner have smoked than she would have worn lipstick...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: eejm on November 29, 2007, 06:53:38 PM
Oh, I daresay Vicky wrote pages of passionately well-argued reasons not to smoke to each and every one of them. And got nowhere. I can just see her visiting sisters (and certain nieces) lookin forlornly about the Taunus for midges and mosquitos to give them their contemporary reason for absolutely having to spark up despite the diminutive disapproval sent their way. I cannot see Vicky criticising her Friedrich for smoking publicy though she probably gave him some well-reasoned talkings-to when she got him to herself! I would say, then, that Vicky would no sooner have smoked than she would have worn lipstick...

Was Vicky known to have any "smoking rooms" in Friedrichshof as her mother did in her own homes?  Since every one of her siblings (save perhaps Alice) smoked, and most of their spouses to boot, I can see how a smoking ban in her home may have been a problem. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2007, 08:08:37 PM
I don't think Vicky had makeup on, although it was well known that her mother-in-law was "well preserved". Also QV did not approved of makeup and use this against her counter-part in Denmark (Alix's mother).  :D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on February 28, 2008, 02:50:24 PM
I found a new pose from a sitting that had little Sigismund in it! well more like the whole photograph
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Vickys%20kids/Vickyandchildren.jpg)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on February 28, 2008, 04:25:24 PM
Agree with posters who said Vicky didn't smoke, and I don't think Alice did either.  But I have a question.  Were the Ponsonby letters published?  I just ordered a book today, "Dearest Child" that contains correspondence from QV to Vicky from <1858-1861>.  I would like to see what QV had to say to a more mature Vicky.  I apologize if this has been addressed, but  could not find anything through the search engine.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 28, 2008, 04:38:32 PM
Yes, the Ponsonby letters were published as Letters of the Empress Frederick. You can buy a used copy on Amazon for about $12-13 right now.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on February 28, 2008, 07:54:24 PM
Thanks!  I will buy one on Saturday (first of the month!) :-[  So many books, so little money!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 28, 2008, 08:26:54 PM
I think there are 6 altogether--3 with Sigismund sitting on Vicky's lap (2 where William's hand is in his pocket) and 3 with him in his father's arms.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on February 28, 2008, 08:57:26 PM
i have only seen three perhaps four including this one..because it looks different from the other three i had previously seen...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 29, 2008, 09:26:09 AM
I've seen the six--one of which has Fritz in profile holding Sigismund--and there are individual sittings of some, if not all, of the family. I'm just not sure if there are more than 6 group.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 21, 2008, 03:47:22 PM
Vicky

(http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/egallery/images/collection_large/420539.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on April 22, 2008, 10:21:39 AM
Here's a photo taken by the 19th century photographer, Camille Silvy  from a sitting done around 1861
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9376/1stposeca3.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 11, 2008, 04:51:53 PM
Vicky with Charly & Willy c1860 ... I thought it would be nice to post this one on Mother's Day  :)
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/142/copyofvickyc1860vc1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 11, 2008, 08:17:15 PM
Based on a photo I think.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 11, 2008, 08:30:48 PM
It is:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/img678.jpg)

Vicky was also photographed then with each child separately and the children (Willy & Charlotte) were photographed individually as well.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 11, 2008, 11:17:17 PM
I am surprised the title refers to her as "Vicky". My impression has always been that her nickname was used in family circles only. The photo doesn't even have her title; seems very disrespectful, imo. Was this common?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 12, 2008, 01:30:51 AM
ArchDss Louise-Henriette herself added the title, it's not original to the picture.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 12, 2008, 01:42:46 AM
here one of Vicky and just Charlotte...i havent seen pictures of Charlotte and Wilhelm by himself...or Wilhelm with Vicky... :(
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Vickys%20kids/VickyandCharlotte.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 12, 2008, 08:49:09 AM
Here's one of Charlotte

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/12110071.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 12, 2008, 10:35:12 AM
Here's one of Charlotte

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/12110071.jpg)

OMG !!! She's sooo cute in that one :)  ... where did you get the image from? GrandDuchessElla
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 12, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
I got it when it was on sale on ebay--the font of all great photos.  :)

Here's one of Vicky & Willy 

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/Picture063aw.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 18, 2008, 09:07:00 PM
Empress Friedrich with Charlotte & Victoria-Moretta
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7692/newvickyxk7.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 20, 2008, 02:14:02 PM
This one is for you ... J.H.B.  ;)    * hope you like it *

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4024/82a93xq6.jpg
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 24, 2008, 03:58:59 PM
thats another amazing photo! thanks for posting it ArchDss Louise-Henriette ! loves it!

A few more for you  ;)

Crown Princess Vicky
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1089/cprssvickywa3.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3760/crownprincessvictoriaadku6.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2955/vickyprussiaga2.jpg
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: royaltybuff on June 03, 2008, 07:32:33 AM
This following is a link to a 1995 interview of Hannah Pakula by Charlie Rose. The two discuss the book "An Uncommon Woman," Pakula's book on Empress Frederick. The film is 56 minutes long, with Pakula's interview 10-15 minutes at the end.

http://www.charlierose.com/guests/hannah-pakula
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on June 04, 2008, 12:35:03 AM
This following is a link to a 1995 interview of Hannah Pakula by Charlie Rose. The two discuss the book "An Uncommon Woman," Pakula's book on Empress Frederick. The film is 56 minutes long, with Pakula's interview 10-15 minutes at the end.

http://www.charlierose.com/guests/hannah-pakula


Thanks for the link! Pakula is one of my favourite authors.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2008, 03:47:06 PM
I had posted it back about 6 pages--it's a very interesting interview. I wish that Pakula was writing more but I think she stopped after the death of her husband, director Alan Pakula.  :( She's one of my favorites too and her bio on Vicky is one of my all-time favorite royal bios. 

Here's what I'd written then:

"There's an interview with Hannah Pakula discussing the book on the Charlie Rose show:

http://www.charlierose.com/guests/hannah-pakula

You go to about the 43-44 min mark--she's the last of 3 guests. She apparently had future projects in mind (she wouldn't say what they were so I guess we'll never know) only that QV wasn't one of them as she'd been written on so often and so well. Makes you think another deserving royal is lacking a biography due to her work stopping."
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 04, 2008, 05:22:39 PM
I would have liked to see her work on William II. She did such a fine job for his mother, a book on the son would have been great. Pakula spent much time in An Uncommon Woman on william. But a fuller, more complete look would be good, especially since her style is more personal and insightful regarding her subjects' beings/inner selves as compared to more stark historian writings that have been what the world has on William.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2008, 07:06:27 PM
Exactly--Pakula reminded me of Pope-Hennessey (biographer of Queen Mary) in that he dealt with the whole person, not just a recitation of facts. A context and background was provided which greatly enhanced the narrative.

HK--have you read any of John Rohl's books on Wilhelm?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 05, 2008, 10:25:14 AM

HK--have you read any of John Rohl's books on Wilhelm?

Started to, however, I felt Rohl was undertaking a mission to prove conventional wisdom and the bias of the 'winning side's history' to be correct. hence, I quickly felt his work was a justication rather than new insights or more innovative contextual analyses.

Niall Ferguson's work is much better, imo. For example, in his "Pity of War" he definitely refutes the age-old idea that Wilhelm was the center point of power in the empire; more like a tool who could be manipulated by the real power brokers and power users. As such, it puts a very different view on the Wilhemine era and the 15+ years leading up to WWI as well as the prosecution of the war itself.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 09, 2008, 01:07:03 PM
I think Rohl's portrait of Wilhelm's personal life hit the spot especially the realtionship with Vicky and Dona.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 09, 2008, 04:57:38 PM
I think Rohl's portrait of Wilhelm's personal life hit the spot especially the realtionship with Vicky and Dona.

What spot? I did not find much unearthed by Rohl to be any different that what has been commonly put forth for 100 years. Were there new insights Rohl examined that strike a different view of Wilhelm?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 11, 2008, 10:19:54 AM
Yes...that Wilhelm was in love with his mother. His dreams about "her hands" really strike one as odd. Later in life he said it was his mother that abandoned him not her. The first book from Rohl is a real gem. It puts things in another prespective. For one Rohl said it was Wilhelm who decided to drop Ella at the last moment and not she refused him. He knew that Ella did not love him, but back off and switch to Dona before she could formally refuse him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 11, 2008, 03:44:34 PM
Hmmm. As I mentioned, those "insights" were not new. Rohl may have added some spin to the known facts, but I found very little to motivate a full read of his work.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 11, 2008, 04:47:11 PM
I just think Rohl's book is incredibly detailed. Those volumes are the size of Harry Potter books and he's only up to the turn of the century! I liked the bit in there about Vicky commissioning a hemophilia study when the issue of the Ella marriage emerged.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 11, 2008, 06:11:25 PM
I agree with the idea that Rohl's details are expansive and interesting. To me the volumes are akin to those newly written about John Adams, for example. A few (many perhaps) new personal details but not a different point of view of the subject. Contrast that with Ferguson's Pity of War or Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar. Each takes a different view, with support, of the subjects than the standard historical record.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 11, 2008, 10:03:38 PM
Did you like King, Kaiser and Tsar. I had mixed feelings on what of it I've read so far.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 11, 2008, 10:19:40 PM
Did you like King, Kaiser and Tsar. I had mixed feelings on what of it I've read so far.

Yes, I actually thought it pretty good. I liked the pseudo-parenthetic commentary that yeilded historical facts, some trivial, but all nonetheless valuable in terms of a larger picture of the lead up to WWI. This book took an uncommon position that the blame was fairly equally shared among the warring nations (GB, Russia, France, Germany) for the outbreak of hostilities while putting forth the somewhat helpless role George had, more limite role Wilhelm had than customarily assumed, and the manipmulation of Nickolas.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on July 14, 2008, 08:15:56 AM
This is a quite long article from Huis Doorn, where Vicky's eldest son spent his time in exile. It's about the drawings of Vicky; her albums are in Huis Doorn. I hope it doesn't matter: it's in Dutch... But the pics are great  ;)

http://www.dickverroen.nl/Resources/VickyDV.pdf
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 14, 2008, 01:28:24 PM
Vicky's drawing of the Neues Palais capture the serenity of the location and the grandeur of what was her main home and the place were Fritz died. It is a wonderful building, in a terrific park...no wonder some of her happiest days were spent there.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on July 15, 2008, 12:55:34 PM
Could anyone post the painting of Vicky that Winterhalter made short before her marriage ? I don't know which painting it is.. :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 15, 2008, 06:43:02 PM
I think this is the one you may be thinking of:

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Vickypainting.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on July 16, 2008, 03:50:38 AM
I've always supposed this painting was made when Vicky had her first presentation at court, a so-called "drawing-room". She wears the court dress with a train, feathers and a bouquet that was regulated for debutantes at their coming-of-age.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on July 17, 2008, 04:10:51 AM
Here's a scan in colour; one of Winterhalter's most appealing paintings.

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Paintings/kffirtsdrawingroom1856.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on July 17, 2008, 04:25:13 AM
Thank you Adagietto ! It's very beautiful :)

Does anyone suppose this painting was made at Vicky's first presentation at court ? I'd like to know that..
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on July 17, 2008, 10:22:21 AM
Your most welcome. It certainly represents her 'first drawing-room'. Since she was a member of the Royal family, I had always assumed that she was making her first public appearance as such, on the occasion of one of these receptions, rather than being presented at court; but I am happy to be corrected if that is not the case.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Teddy on August 04, 2008, 07:49:45 AM
Does someone know the difference about the book which Frederick Ponsoby have published (letter of Empress Friedrich) and the books chock full of letters of the same Empress by Agatha Ramm and R. Fulford?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2008, 08:21:21 AM
The latter also contain letters to and from QV and Vicky. The ones by Ponsonby, if I recall correctly, aren't as familial in nature. I prefer the Fulford ones myself.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 04, 2008, 12:08:25 PM
I think the Ponsonby letters were more political in nature, which is why Vicky wanted them to be out of Willie's hands...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on August 18, 2008, 07:51:23 AM
I think the letters must have been the same, surely?  Ponsonby selected some from the huge collection - about 8,000 in the correspondence - and, as Eric says, published the ones which were more political in content and edited them to eliminate much of the more personal thoughts and observations.  The ones edited by Fulford and later by Ramm, are much more extensive in nature and I agree with granduchessella, more personal and actually more interesting. 

The normal instinct of Queen Victoria was to destroy private correspondence - she often tells her daughter to "burn this" and there are gaps where obviously some conflagration has gone on (usually after a row).  Clearly Vicky felt that it was important to get her views known posthumously, hence all the shennanigans with Ponsonby smuggling out the letters - she would have known that her mother would have preferred to see the letters destroyed.  It was very fortunate that her desire to see herself vindicated made her go to great lengths to preserve the correspondence.

I'm not sure it was exactly the political content of the letters which Wilhelm would not have been happy with, so much as a public undermining of his position as head of his family and his country - which certainly comes across in the correspondence between his mother and grandmother who saw no reason to mince their words when they thought he had behaved like an ass!   His mother wasn't remotely near the centre of power when she died, so didn't possess any state secrets, and I think, frankly, that Ponsonby was trading on the sinister reputation of the Kaiser since WWI when he made a good story about smuggling out Vicky's letters - of course Wilhelm would have wanted to make sure they stayed in the country and probably would have destroyed them, but that doesn't mean that there was anything really inflammatory in them - King Edward VII did exactly the same with a great deal of his mother's private correspondence (and the private correspondence of earlier generations) on the advice of Lord Esher.  Edward VII would have been absolutely furious if his private correspondence with his mother had been smuggled out of England and deposited in Berlin! 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 18, 2008, 10:17:14 AM
Edward VII would have been absolutely furious if his private correspondence with his mother had been smuggled out of England and deposited in Berlin! 


Excellent point CountessKate. In the interest of "full disclosure" only WII has the misfortune of having his dirty laundry hung out for everyone to study. In spite of some historians' desire to tackle the hidden truths such as the private corrrespondences of Edward, etc, if the material was unpublished...marketing and propaganda and conventional wisdom take over, all of which benefitted others, but not WII.

I think the letters must have been the same, surely?  Ponsonby selected some from the huge collection - about 8,000 in the correspondence - and, as Eric says, published the ones which were more political in content and edited them to eliminate much of the more personal thoughts and observations.  The ones edited by Fulford and later by Ramm, are much more extensive in nature and I agree with granduchessella, more personal and actually more interesting. 


the editing process could not have been without bias, especially as CountessKate pointed out, that the edited letters were released more than 20 years after having been sneaked out of Germany and after the vilification of the war.

would Ponsonby's taking the letters have been considered a robbery? Seems that royal family assets and personal property are definitely not distributable to third parties without the consent of the direct heir/beneficiary.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on August 19, 2008, 03:27:02 AM
Quote
would Ponsonby's taking the letters have been considered a robbery? Seems that royal family assets and personal property are definitely not distributable to third parties without the consent of the direct heir/beneficiary.

I don't see how it could have been perceived as such.  They were taken to England at the express desire of the owner - Ponsonby was simply a messenger who did not inspire or influence the removal, merely carried it out in the manner required by Vicky.  There is also no evidence that WII was the intended beneficiary of his mother's correspondence, indeed rather the reverse.  He was certainly not a major beneficiary of her will.  I expect Vicky was simply aware after the death of her husband that it was in her son's power to seize all her correspondence which she could avoid by having it discretely removed to a country where her wishes about the letters would be respected.   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2008, 03:37:09 PM
After the ransack of Neus Plalais after Fritz's death, Vicky was wise to see that coming...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on August 23, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
 Something I find fascinating about the correspondence, is that although Vicky had a much broader intellectual appreciation of arts, books, etc. and was much more liberal in her political views, it is actually her mother who comes across as the better writer - there is something about the way she just pours everything out quite unselfconsciously, while Vicky's side of the correspondence is much more guarded in the expression of her personality (although she certainly makes her views known - she was alas, devoid of the subterfuge which would have done her a lot of good in the Prussian court).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 23, 2008, 12:58:40 PM
Interesting insight. I see that variance between the two writing styles, as well, did not attribute it to Vicky's attempt to conceal her personality; i actually thought that was her personality.

It is true, and abundantly unfortunate, that she did not find the formula for success in dealing with the court and political issues. Youthful idealism and lack of experience in dealing with tough situations clearly worked against her in the early days.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 28, 2008, 07:09:41 PM
Vicky was also so stubborn and convinced that the English way was the best way.  Yet how could she not be?  Her mother was Queen Victoria of all people, and in her letters her mother constantly reminds Vicky that she is an ENGLISH princess.  Victoria didn't realize the harm she was doing her daughter because she had never moved to a new country and been obliged to adapt to new customs.  I completely agree with Vicky's opinions which were so liberal at the time, and I can't help but admire her strength in upholding her convictions.  Yet she rather alienated herself from so many influential Prussians with her outspokeness.  It seems that a little dissembling could have done her some good, but who knows?  Maybe no one in her position with her ideals could have done any better in that political climate. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 29, 2008, 01:46:20 AM
Vicky was also so stubborn and convinced that the English way was the best way. 

Which it was. England was an amazing place at the time. Her mother was head of the greatest empire the world had ever seen. There was also something about England which is the reason so many of QV's descendents loved the placef

Even Charlotte wrote from Sandringham in July 1911; "What i've seen, learnt to admire, heard and witnessed, I can't describe, there is no place like England, & if possible i'm more English than ever..."

Of course in Vickys new role it was ridiculous to expect her to remain an English princess which caused so many problems!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2008, 04:52:39 PM
To crown it all. Vicky was too English in Berlin but too German in England. She often sigh she could never win...With Bismark recording her every word for material to attack her, she had no choice but to wear a mask of affability. It becaomes as much a part of her that she could not take it off even in intimate situations. Missy once commented that her Aunt Vicky smile was lovely but without warmth (fake). Only in her letters to her mother was the real Vicky was allowed to come out...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 29, 2008, 06:17:42 PM
Sometimes I think Missy had a really hard time understanding people who were not as outgoing as herself and tended to judge those people negatively.  She loved Queen Alexandra and Grand Duchess Elizabeth- two beautiful women who were adept at social situations.  Yet others who didn't win other people over easily- like Vicky and Empress Alexandra- she wound up viewing sourly.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2008, 07:01:26 PM
Well...Alix of Denmark was a darling and easily got her love and so was Ella. Both crowd pleasers. However, Vicky also liked underdogs like Ducky, and put her on top of Alicky and Ella for naturalness...That was quite surprising. Vicky was also close to Margarita of Italy, Carman Sylver (Queen of Romania) and Empress Sisi of Austria. That said much how she was able to get along with these difficult but talented women.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 30, 2008, 09:47:19 PM
Ducky loved Missy from nearly the beginning of her life.  Sisi was someone who charmed people she met- her difficulties didn't really bother people who didn't have to deal with her on a regular basis.  Missy clung to Carmen Sylva through a desperation for human contact and shared interests.  Once Missy got to know people who were more stand-offish she often could see their good qualities as well- like when she and Empress Alexandra discussed Carol and Olga's possible marriage.  In Vicky's case I don't think Missy had the opportunity to understand the unique character of a distant aunt.  Missy was too young to be on intimate terms with Vicky, not to mention her family moved about a lot and probably didn't see Vicky that often.  When Missy was married she spent most of her time in Romania, and visited her own family in Coburg when she wasn't there.  Vicky liked the Edinburgh children the best out of all her nieces and nephews, but by the time they were old enough to form opinions of her she had become more withdrawn and less natural in reaction to the circumstances in her life.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2008, 01:36:00 PM
I think Ducky remain one of Vicky's favourite as she wrote to her daughter Sophie, at the same time was not approved of the looks of Ella and Alicky (she never liked this niece for some reason). Another favourites were Toria and Maud ("Two such ducks !").
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 31, 2008, 03:44:36 PM
I wonder what Vicky could have found wanting in Ella and Alix's looks?  I've always thought the two of them were so beautiful!  I wish I could get my hands on The Empress Frederick Writes to Sophie!  There are copies around but they're expensive.  It's strange that Ella, who was usually a great favorite, somehow rubbed Vicky the wrong way.   I'll have to look in my books and see if I can find any references- I seem to remember something Vicky wrote to that effect but not exactly what.  Alix was so shy that she seemed cold to most people. I can completely see Vicky chatting with Toria and Maud- I wonder if Maud got any of her ideas from Vicky.  I'm thinking about Maud's attitude as Queen of Norway toward's women's rights and her concern for the welfare of unwed mothers.  I'm sure Vicky spent plenty of time with the Wales sisters since they lived in England and Vicky visited often.  I can also imagine Vicky and Victoria Melita getting along well.  I wonder how Ducky felt about Vicky?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 02, 2008, 01:22:40 PM
I think Ducky admired Vicky but does not understand her much. Vicky did not like the cold beauties of Ella and Alicky, yes even Ella can froze people off. She like the Edinburghs and the Wales because they seem more natural to her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: eejm on September 02, 2008, 05:48:51 PM
How did Vicky get along with her younger nieces - Helena's, Arthur's, Leopold's and Beatrice's children?  I know Alice of Athlone claims that her aunt was always trying to butt into everything.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on September 02, 2008, 07:02:45 PM
In her letters to Sophie, she writes very fondly of Beatrice's children, especially Leopold. She also asks Sophie to burn some of her letters or else entrust them to Aunt Alix or Thora--so she must've had some faith in Thora. Alice she found a 'nice child' and thought she would make a nice wife for Andrew someday--only he married a different Alice! Daisy she found lovely and thought her a possible match for Nicholas. She thought they would both be 'charming sisters-in-law' for Sophie. (She also thought of Sandra for Greek Georgie)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on September 16, 2008, 10:34:28 AM
Does anyone know on which occasion this portrait of Vicky was made ? It's dated 1857, was it maybe her engagement ?

http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/object.asp?searchText=winterhalter&object=404580&row=45
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on September 16, 2008, 10:40:22 AM
Or her coming of age. It's my favorite of her--it's just enchanting. It was on the cover of Daphne Bennett's bio--the first I ever read of Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Yseult on September 16, 2008, 11:35:28 AM
My favorite picture of Vicky...the princess and her mirror...

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/Vickyprincessroyalandmirror.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on September 16, 2008, 03:09:33 PM
Or her coming of age. It's my favorite of her--it's just enchanting. It was on the cover of Daphne Bennett's bio--the first I ever read of Vicky.
It's her coming of age ? It couldn't in any case be her début at court, that's showed on this portrait: http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/lein051t.jpg
Thank you for the info !!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 16, 2008, 07:35:40 PM
Or her coming of age. It's my favorite of her--it's just enchanting. It was on the cover of Daphne Bennett's bio--the first I ever read of Vicky.
It's her coming of age ? It couldn't in any case be her début at court, that's showed on this portrait: http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/lein051t.jpg
Thank you for the info !!


I believe the two winterhalter portraits were done a year apart. Very similar.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on October 25, 2008, 08:45:10 AM
Willy and Charlotte in 1864:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-2865

Willy (in the Royal Stewart costume !!) and Charlotte again in 1863:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-2863
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2008, 12:05:21 PM
Willy bonded with Charlotte much more than his younger sisters.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 29, 2008, 12:19:34 PM
There seemed two distinct families - Willlie, Charlotte and Heinrich in one part and Moretta, Sophie, and Mossy in the other.   The ages might have something to do with it - the first three were very close in age and because of the short-lived Sigismund, they were separated from Moretta by four years, which for children can be quite a lot.  Moretta was stuck in the middle but seemed to gravitate towards her younger rather than her older siblings. 

Undoubtedly Vicky in her letters to her mother is far more critical of her three oldest children than she is of her three youngest.  There could be many explanations for this; 'oldest child' syndrome - the mother has high expectations for her oldest which are more realistic by the time the younger children come along; more interference from the Prussian grandparents in the older childrens' upbringing, which was unconsciously resented in the children; the older children 'blazing the trail' with their rebellions so what was fought for by the older children is taken for granted by the younger.   All possible reasons why the older children formed a group which were 'anti' their parents while the younger were 'pro'.  Of course this is rather simplistic and Heinrich, for example, moved from an 'anti' into a 'pro', particularly after his marriage - though he never became as 'pro' or as favoured as the three younger girls. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 29, 2008, 12:41:04 PM
Willie Charlotte and Henrich were taken more into the group of the grandparents. Augusta spoiled Willy & Charlotte, while paid less attention to the younger girls. The death of Sigismund and Waldermar were a blow to Vicky that she never recovered.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 29, 2008, 04:07:27 PM
The death of Sigismund and Waldermar were a blow to Vicky that she never recovered.

...and few people, including her own mother, gave her much support for the tragic loss.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Aliss_Kande on October 29, 2008, 06:27:57 PM
So true.  I believe it was when Sigismund died that Queen Victoria told Vicky to, basically, get over it and be glad she hadn't lost a husband.  QV was quite attached to her husband and none of her children died (too) young, so she might not have completely understood what Vicky was going through.  I still think it was kind of insensitive.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 29, 2008, 07:41:24 PM
you're being kind to say QV was "kind of insensitive".  ;)  That was very insensitive and selfish behavior by QV, especially since Vicky was very much allienated in Berlin without much of a means, other than Fritz, to seek consolation.

William was quite desperately affected by the loss of his little brother too. But, in Prussian households, the hugging, emotional understandings are somewhat limited.

Alliss...the montage you created for your signature is utterly lovely. Viktoria Luise was such a quintessential little fairy tale princess.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Aliss_Kande on October 29, 2008, 09:22:33 PM
Thanks HerrKaiser for the complement on my banner.

At the time of Sigismund's death, Fritz wasn't even there to comfort Vicky.  He was off at war and did not even express much emotion in his letters back to Vicky.  Vicky couldn't understand how he could take the death of their child so lightly (not that he did, just how he expressed it).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2008, 05:23:02 PM
Indeed. Willy knew that his mother preferred his younger brothers to him, but still he felt for his mother's loss.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovFan on November 01, 2008, 07:16:01 PM
So true.  I believe it was when Sigismund died that Queen Victoria told Vicky to, basically, get over it and be glad she hadn't lost a husband.

That's very true. She did. QV was very double-standard with her children on the expectations of marriage and children, so when Vicky lost Sigi and Waldy, Queen Victoria was all but sympathetic towards her. I read about this in Hannah Pakula's biography of Vicky; reading QV's letters to Vicky about her dead boys, where she tells her daughter to basically move on and get over it, made my stomach turn. That isn't something you tell your grieving child.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2008, 10:39:08 AM
QV was lucky that she did not start losing her children until middle age...starting from Alice, Leopold and lastly Affie...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on November 02, 2008, 10:46:22 AM
Yeah,i actually read somewhere that Vicky actually made a sculpture of little Siggy, and she had it kept in a room in a cradle.
Was this true?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2008, 10:49:01 AM
I think so...It could still be at the Kronberg Hotel.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on November 02, 2008, 10:57:20 AM
Wow...
yeah im not sure if i read it in "an uncommon woman" or another book...i have it somewhere...i just wanted to know if it was true or not, but its still sad none the less ...
Little Siggy was such an adorable boy, i heard he reminded Vicky of her father Albert.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 04, 2008, 06:20:09 AM
Thanks HerrKaiser for the complement on my banner.

At the time of Sigismund's death, Fritz wasn't even there to comfort Vicky.  He was off at war and did not even express much emotion in his letters back to Vicky.  Vicky couldn't understand how he could take the death of their child so lightly (not that he did, just how he expressed it).
She thought for the whole life that Sigismund had to die because the medicals where at the war, one could imagine that very deep inside she had the feeling that even her husband was against her and the poor child because he left her alone and took the help for the child with him  :( .Not that's what I think but if someone is so sad the feelings are strange.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on November 04, 2008, 10:47:57 AM
Quote
I believe it was when Sigismund died that Queen Victoria told Vicky to, basically, get over it and be glad she hadn't lost a husband.

I was re-reading 'Your dear letter', the volume of correspondence between Queen Victoria and Vicky at this time and I think it is not really accurate to to say that this is what QV's attitude was.  The first letter when QV learnt of Sigismund's death - which wasn't reproduced but only quoted - apparently was purely sympathetic and said something to the effect (I don't have the book iwith me now so this isn't exact) that QV wanted to be with her daughter to "take her in her arms" and comfort her, and the editor, Fulford, then wrote that much of the succeeding correspondence (and they wrote to one another several times a week) was preoccupied with Sigismund's death.  It was only after some time had passed that QV suggested that Vicky had things to be grateful for, which should alleviate the pain, including a living husband.  It's absolutely true that QV thought that losing a husband was the greatest calamity and that no one suffered in the way she suffered, but I think her expression of this was hardly as brutal as has been suggested. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2008, 02:47:20 PM
I know...but the death of Sigi was a crushing disapointment that she never recovered. None of the other sons could take his place...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on November 07, 2008, 11:14:00 AM
Quote
the death of Sigi was a crushing disapointment that she never recovered. None of the other sons could take his place...

It is a dreadful thing to lose a child, but I do think Vicky seemed to emotionally invest in her younger sons to compensate for her disappointments in her older boys.  Sigismund was only two when he died, and Waldemar 11, so there was no telling what might have happened - they might well have joined the side in Imperial politics which was hostile to their parents, simply because it was the side which would have given them careers and status.  However, because they died young, she could always imagine that they would have fulfilled the promise she saw in them which was so much more comforting than the hostility or indifference of her older children.   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2008, 01:52:50 PM
Yes. However I think that the younger sons would be more closer to her since the elders like Willy (especially) and Henry belonged to the state. Charlotte was spoiled by Augusta. The younger girls were all loyal to Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovFan on December 15, 2008, 09:36:51 PM
Yeah,i actually read somewhere that Vicky actually made a sculpture of little Siggy, and she had it kept in a room in a cradle.
Was this true?


That's also in Hannah Pakula's book. I think it is true, yes.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 24, 2008, 09:11:41 AM
There is two segments of the BBC Series "Fall of the Eagles". First of Vicky when she came a bride to Berlin. Second as an aged Empress dealing with Willy & Bismark.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 24, 2008, 10:45:07 AM
There was a German TV movie in 1970 showing the fatal illness of Friedrich III. Vicky, Wilhelm II and Dr MacKenzie all were portrayed as well. It was Friedrich III. '...gestorben als Kaiser'. There was a TV miniseries, Bismarck, which showed Fritz & Vicky. Vicky was also portrayed in Victoria & Albert and, I think, Mrs Brown. She was shown in Edward VII and in an episode of Voyagers. There was a German movie about Bismarck in 1942 and a 1919 movie entitled The Great Victory, Wilson or the Kaiser? The Fall of the Hohenzollerns which showed 'Vicky', though in a small way.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovFan on December 24, 2008, 02:53:22 PM
Thanks guys. Vicky and Fritz's love story was such a big thing; are there any films that focus on their story alone, like Victoria & Albert?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kimberly on December 25, 2008, 02:33:15 AM
Back in the seventies, there was a fantastic production on the TV (available on DVD) called "Edward VII". Vicky and Fritz figure in it a lot. It is excellent.
Annette Crosby plays QV and Felicity Kendell makes an excellent Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 12, 2009, 08:00:07 AM

This is Fritz at the time of the Jubilee (the white uniform, etc...)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/10083085a.jpg)

I think this is the same uniform, and same time.

(http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/41043/2085874660101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2085874660101857556ydFfqB)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 12, 2009, 11:19:33 AM


the photo above of Fritz in his Jubilee uniform was a stunning appearance. He wore a silver helmet and rode a white stallion. The cheers from the masses along the parade route were often louder than the roars when QV came by.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 12, 2009, 12:20:19 PM

the photo above of Fritz in his Jubilee uniform was a stunning appearance. He wore a silver helmet and rode a white stallion. The cheers from the masses along the parade route were often louder than the roars when QV came by.

There is also a portrait of Kaiser Friedrich III in the same uniform...

(http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/32787/2588855820101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2588855820101857556hpgwat)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2009, 12:24:02 PM
Empress Eugenie once said he reminded him of the image of Hamlet...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 12, 2009, 02:41:07 PM

Didn't Frederick have the most beautifully glossy beard? It's reminds me of a long coated golden retriever's fur....it looks almost silken, not like Alexander III's which looked more wiry and like a huge brillo pad! I think Frederick rather leonine, he must have been swooningly impressive in the flesh!!!


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 12, 2009, 03:03:54 PM
the portrait above of Fritz standing in grand pose hangs at kronberg, vicky's last home near Wiesbaden.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 12, 2009, 04:02:36 PM
Empress Eugenie once said he reminded him of the image of Hamlet...

Hamlet?...yes it's true...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2009, 02:52:53 PM
Indeed. Frtiz had a straight forwardness and nobility of spirtit that made even Dagmar ashamed of her treatment of him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 12, 2009, 10:22:07 PM
Vicky & Fritz with Fritz's sister Louise and her husband Friedrich of Baden

(http://visono02.diz.apa.net/MAM/data/Bild/c_60000/62484/prwz.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kevin From Australia on April 13, 2009, 05:14:44 AM
Having a guess that this was taken in the very early days of the Princess Royal's marriage - I'm saying 1859 and that they may be in mourning for the grandmother of Luise & Friedrich Wilhelm - the Dowager Grand Duchess of Saxe-Weimar (Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna of Russia)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on April 13, 2009, 06:05:56 AM
Having a guess that this was taken in the very early days of the Princess Royal's marriage - I'm saying 1859 and that they may be in mourning for the grandmother of Luise & Friedrich Wilhelm - the Dowager Grand Duchess of Saxe-Weimar (Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna of Russia)

They may be as well in mourning for Empress Alexandra Fedorovna (nee Princess of Prussia), died in 1860, and may be the event was the death of King Friedirch Wilhelm IV of Prussia in the beginning of 1861.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 13, 2009, 08:44:03 AM
The dates on these are often incorrect but I'm leaning towards the death of Empress Alexandra (nee Charlotte of Prussia) since it does say 1860 on the side. There are many fabulous photos of Vicky on the site, most of which were published in the illustrated papers--either the Suddeutsche Zeitung or the other Zeitungs.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Veronica on April 13, 2009, 01:11:52 PM
There are many fabulous photos of Vicky on the site.

I agree. There is one in particular that I simply love, but the watermark is right on her face :-(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 01:23:32 PM
Which one ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Veronica on April 13, 2009, 01:51:53 PM
This one, among others with the same problem:

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2048/vickyprwz.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 13, 2009, 03:50:58 PM
This is the first I saw the four togather. Not a lot of photos of Luise as a young woman, as a young mother with her children or even in court dress and jewels.

There are a good number of her published in the German papers & magazines.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 03:58:37 PM
No easy to get those my dear...Only images of her as an old woman is usually available on Ebay.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 13, 2009, 08:00:07 PM
They're actually very easy to get--much easier than many of the photos & postcards from ebay. And cheaper as well! I just received 10 bound volumes and even with shipping it was less than I sometimes paid for just a few cards and I received hundreds of photos rather than just a few.

And please don't call me 'my dear'. It sounds patronizing and I don't believe you probably meant it that way. That's how it comes across though.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 02, 2009, 01:57:25 PM
Kaiser Friedrich III

(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/43318/2402584560101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2402584560101857556miSwfo)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 02, 2009, 02:09:41 PM
(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/16971/2834623950101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2834623950101857556Fhnxkf)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 08:14:42 AM
(http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/44172/2486766420101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2486766420101857556otVVZs)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 08:57:41 AM
(http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/43622/2815911840101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2815911840101857556XhibuM)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 10:44:31 AM
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/44760/2250245010101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2250245010101857556WrIAvz)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 01:57:11 PM
(http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/42021/2353130390101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2353130390101857556ERSOnn)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 22, 2009, 01:57:50 PM
(http://i25.tinypic.com/2psrrlf.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 04:02:33 PM
Great photo!, thank you Katenka!

One more of Kaiser Friedrich III

(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/8490/2800595540101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2800595540101857556QkBiuT)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 22, 2009, 04:38:08 PM
You re  welcome, That s one of my favorites of the couple.

Here another found in "Royal musings", (Marlene`s blog)

(http://i25.tinypic.com/2iqdfnn.jpg)

Its very emotive
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 22, 2009, 04:48:37 PM
Its very emotive

Amazing!...yes it's very emotive, the caption says that this is a commemorative picture...or something like that, unfortunately my knowledge of German is very, very limited.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 23, 2009, 07:30:59 AM
(http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/43451/2890976320101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2890976320101857556emPoht)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 23, 2009, 07:34:10 AM
(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/38089/2911275860101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2911275860101857556yxQGKT)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 23, 2009, 11:47:32 AM
(http://i26.tinypic.com/24x4dx1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 24, 2009, 12:46:06 PM
the black and white of Fritz at his writing table was taken just a couple months before he passed. It seems all the attention to his throat cancer would have been better attented to without that huge, full beard. It cannot help but be wondered if part of his quick demise was due to infection derived from poor technique including shaving the area.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 25, 2009, 08:40:08 AM
(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/43912/2753267480101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2753267480101857556elniXn)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 25, 2009, 09:21:49 AM
(http://i30.tinypic.com/6itzba.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 25, 2009, 05:33:13 PM
Wonderful photo!

Kaiser Friedrich III and his dog.

(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/34731/2483019440101857556S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2483019440101857556XOMqfS)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 25, 2009, 10:52:54 PM
That is a greast photo. This must have been taken very late in his life; the gray parts of his beard were not obvious until the end.

interesting set, as well. I like the balasters and newel post of twigs.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on August 30, 2009, 01:10:25 PM
On the last photo the crown prince looks quite old !

A photo of crown princess Victoria with her daughters princesses Sophie and Viktoria in 1878:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-0062
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 30, 2009, 06:16:56 PM
That is what cancer does.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on August 31, 2009, 02:42:18 PM
On the last photo the crown prince looks quite old !

A photo of crown princess Victoria with her daughters princesses Sophie and Viktoria in 1878:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-0062


It appears to be mis-ID'd on the site. It's Victoria with Charlotte and Victoria (Moretta), isn't it? I have a cabinet card from the same sitting and one has been shown in a book and they are both labelled as such.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on September 01, 2009, 01:38:34 AM
On the last photo the crown prince looks quite old !

A photo of crown princess Victoria with her daughters princesses Sophie and Viktoria in 1878:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-0062


It appears to be mis-ID'd on the site. It's Victoria with Charlotte and Victoria (Moretta), isn't it? I have a cabinet card from the same sitting and one has been shown in a book and they are both labelled as such.

They could be Charlotte and Viktoria if the year is not 1878 ;). For me it looks like 1874-1875 years.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Veronica on September 01, 2009, 12:43:08 PM
Empress Friedrich with Charlotte & Victoria-Moretta
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7692/newvickyxk7.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7692/newvickyxk7.jpg)


From the same session as the pic posted by Luc. I think it's correctly identified as Vicky with Charlotte and Victoria (Moretta)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on September 01, 2009, 05:51:09 PM
yes, its Charly and Moretta.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on September 06, 2009, 11:12:46 AM
Here some more photos of empress Frederick, if not new to everyone :

Friedrich and Victoria within a company:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-04807

This one must be new, the princess royal at her confirmation day:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-01189

And this one:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-04733

Regards,
Luc

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on September 06, 2009, 01:32:10 PM
In the first photo it is not vicky but her daughter Victoria (Moretta)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: synnadene on October 27, 2009, 04:26:51 PM

Crown Princess Victoria - photo:Levitsky

(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/jewels_syn/VictoriaGBLevitsky.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 27, 2009, 04:37:59 PM
Beauitiful!!

I like this one of Viktoria in mourning

(http://i37.tinypic.com/9gbib7.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on October 28, 2009, 03:54:39 AM
The last two photos are magnifficent and new for me !!! Thank You very much
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 28, 2009, 12:15:56 PM
I am lucky enough to own both those cards--the former is a CDV while the latter is a cabinet card. It was taken as part of a series when she visited England in, I believe, the early 1890s. An earlier series in England with her mother soon after her widowhood showed her in more of the Mary Stuart mourning cap with the strong point.  The latter has always been one of my favorites. I think there are about 4-5 poses from that sitting. The first shot (the CDV), I think there are at least 3.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 08, 2010, 02:06:57 PM
Victoria and parents the day of her wedding

(http://i46.tinypic.com/51qyoz.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 08, 2010, 02:56:29 PM
That's the one that Queen Victoria 'ruined' by shaking so much due to nerves. She recorded that Vicky was much calmer than herself.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 08, 2010, 03:21:43 PM
Really? i thought it was problem of the scan. Gee!!...i cant imagine Victoria that nervous!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 08, 2010, 05:12:48 PM
QV was very nervous as the bride's mother. There had been a great deal of negotitations between the Prussian court and herself to finalize the arrangements of the wedding, and QV, in spite of her massive adoration of Fritz, really did feel like she was losing a daughter. Plus, the photo technology at the time required subjects to remains almost motionless for several seconds. QV was just too jittery to do so. And taking re-shots was not the way it was done.

Vickie, by the by, is not wearing a tiara. That is a wreathe of flowers. She also used, supposedly for the first time outside of a theatre, the Wagner music from Lohengrin that has since become the standard, traditional music at weddings.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 11, 2010, 07:22:53 AM
I'm going to disagree with everybody and say that I don't find it at all surprising that Wilhelm did not get on with his mother. After all, she did very little but criticise him and make it clear to him at every turn what a disappointment he was to her. The fact that she so obviously preferred the younger ones could only have made things worse.

Eric
I fail to see how you can say that Sigismund was the intelligent one, since he died at 21 months. Waldemar was old enough to have emerged as a promising boy, but 11 is quite different from under two.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: kmerov on March 11, 2010, 08:53:06 AM
I'm going to disagree with everybody and say that I don't find it at all surprising that Wilhelm did not get on with his mother. After all, she did very little but criticise him and make it clear to him at every turn what a disappointment he was to her. The fact that she so obviously preferred the younger ones could only have made things worse.

Eric
I fail to see how you can say that Sigismund was the intelligent one, since he died at 21 months. Waldemar was old enough to have emerged as a promising boy, but 11 is quite different from under two.

Ann

I don't think it's surprising either, but I don't blame Vicky entirely for their bad relationship. Wilhelm was the heir and was groomed to that position by the court and his grand father from an early age. This meant that he was surrounded and influenced by people who disliked his mother and her views. Her younger sons were not "state property" in the same way and thus they could have a more natural relationship with their mother, and without the same expectations.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 11, 2010, 09:44:14 AM
I agree that it wasn't entirely Victoria's fault, but her attitude was the main factor in their estrangement. There is a distinct similarity to the relationship between Queen Victoria and Edward VII, with the difference that Friedrich was an altogether more benign father than Albert.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 11, 2010, 10:45:01 AM
In spite of my great adoration for Vicky, I agree with Kalafrana. Wilhelm was an abused child--by his tutors and handlers and by the fact that neither parent stepped in to try to sheild him from the abuse. His disability was used as a tool to humiliate him and give him pain. Vicky may well have felt shackled by the Prussian court to do very much, but she really did not offer a contrasting and soothing refuge to the regimens to which he was subjected. The one story of his continuing to fall off a horse because he was unable to balance with only one arm, his wailing and crying for relief, and all present (I think includign vicky) just kept remounting him is enough to see why he may have had issues.

All that said, his complete emotional breakdown at his mother's funeral, in public view, is quite atypical of royal tradition and indicates, perhaps, much he harbored inside.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2010, 12:15:46 PM

I don't think it's surprising either, but I don't blame Vicky entirely for their bad relationship. Wilhelm was the heir and was groomed to that position by the court and his grand father from an early age. This meant that he was surrounded and influenced by people who disliked his mother and her views. Her younger sons were not "state property" in the same way and thus they could have a more natural relationship with their mother, and without the same expectations.

While what you say of the sons is true, Vicky's dreadful relationship with her eldest daughter is also evidence that her standards were far too high in dealing with the older kids, and she made a rod for her own back. The much-maligned Charlotte was clearly a troubled child, but with the right sort of tutors she was witty and eloquent; yet her mother wrote her off as stupid and inattentive, favouring the far more skittish and often frankly peculiar "Moretta" quite openly.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 11, 2010, 12:30:34 PM
I don't know much about the daughters - only that Charlotte had porphyria and was difficult to say the least. What was peculiar about Moretta?

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2010, 01:04:02 PM
I think what troubled Vicky was Charlotte's tale telling and dishonesty. That has nothing to do with her upbrining, but she was spoiled by Augusta (her grandmother) and adored for her beauty. It was her beauty that stood apart from her other sisters, a fact that even her grudging mother had to admit. Straight forward and bluntfully honest, Vicky could not understand why her lovely daughter love to fib and create gossip. Charlotte's intrigues later got her into trouble with her favourite brother Wilhelm, and plagued her cousin Marie (Missy) of Edinburgh/Coburg.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2010, 02:36:07 PM
I think what troubled Vicky was Charlotte's tale telling and dishonesty. That has nothing to do with her upbrining, but she was spoiled by Augusta (her grandmother) and adored for her beauty. It was her beauty that stood apart from her other sisters, a fact that even her grudging mother had to admit. Straight forward and bluntfully honest, Vicky could not understand why her lovely daughter love to fib and create gossip. Charlotte's intrigues later got her into trouble with her favourite brother Wilhelm, and plagued her cousin Marie (Missy) of Edinburgh/Coburg.

What troubled "Vicky" was Charlotte's restlessness and poor digestion, as well as her tantrums - at the age of two, when such things are perfectly normal. It seems to me that one cannot place the blame on the child and her grand parents for the fact that her mother found her wanting this early, and continued to do so throughout her life. If she sided in family arguments with her brother, she was "undutiful"; if she sided with her mother, as she often did later, when Wilhelm's instability began to trouble her as much as it troubled others, she was "mischief making". Charlotte's known tendency to run around bearing gossip, and her making up to various elderly monarchs such as the King of Rumania seems to me to be rooted in a desire for attention and importance, something she did not receive adequately as a child.

Charlotte's intrigues later got her into trouble with her favourite brother Wilhelm, and plagued her cousin Marie (Missy) of Edinburgh/Coburg.

She was friendly with Queen Marie's mother and with her uncle-in-law, King Carol, and kept them appraised of the young woman's activities. THis is the root of the problem there. I am not sure exactly which incident you refer to with Wilhelm? (there were a few)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2010, 02:39:57 PM
I don't know much about the daughters - only that Charlotte had porphyria and was difficult to say the least. What was peculiar about Moretta?

Ann

She was rather unstable, and had a remarkable facility for falling in love with unsuitable men - the most famous being the Russian waiter she married as a woman of sixty, who made off with her money. There was also a lot of gossip around the court about her odd appearance. Needless to say, she caused Wilhelm a lot of embarrassment "not all of it his fault" (Roehl's words, here).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 11, 2010, 02:45:41 PM
Ah, yes, I thought it was Moretta with the Russian waiter. In what way did she look odd? Given the obsession of some posters (not you, Janet) with people's looks, I am wondering whether she dressed strangely or was simply a bit plain.

Ann

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2010, 02:49:35 PM
Well..."Charley The Brat" wasn't a favourite among her cousins either. In the bios of Queen Marie of Romania, what she did behind the scenes was clearly mischief making. Even Vicky was baffled that "Why did she have to go to Romania ?". She was rumoured to have a spiteful tongue and quite a few comments did hurt. Once when asked once which person she disliked the most by a family member, Queen Mary (who was always diplomatic and shy) promptly wrote down "Charley The Brat". One would wonder what passed between the two women. As for her intrigues at home, they were well documented. She did not like Dona and sought to make fun of her behind her back and among her friends of the "fast set" in Berlin. One time when her brother Wilhelm II was due to make a foreign tour, he was shocked to find his eldest sister there at the same time without his permission. The only excuse I could think of for Charlotte is perhaps her mental inbalance was caused by sickness (porphyia) which has been proved in the excellent book by John Rohl.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 13, 2010, 05:44:40 AM
. As for her intrigues at home, they were well documented. She did not like Dona and sought to make fun of her behind her back and among her friends of the "fast set" in Berlin. One time when her brother Wilhelm II was due to make a foreign tour, he was shocked to find his eldest sister there at the same time without his permission. The only excuse I could think of for Charlotte is perhaps her mental inbalance was caused by sickness (porphyia) which has been proved in the excellent book by John Rohl.

Dona was mocked by many people, and in complaining about her behind her back Charlotte essentially followed Mama's example, did she not? The entire court was a hotbed of gossip and nastiness - Petersburg had nothing on Berlin - and Wilhelm's attempts to micro-manage the behaviour of his adult relatives caused no end of problems. Some of the most serious "intrigues" laid at Charlotte's door by her many enemies were not her doing at all. I suggest you delve further into "the excellent works of John Roehl" on that topic, if interested - he has written about much more than porphyria.

What excuses can you think of for the curious behavior of the rest of the imperial circle? - We were talking about Charlotte's infancy and the way her mother treated her; to come back to adults peccadilloes she had does not somehow exonerate her mother of being hyper-critical, unless you are trying to suggest that the two year child was such a rotten apple that Mama could not be expected to treat her differently.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 13, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
Once when asked once which person she disliked the most by a family member, Queen Mary (who was always diplomatic and shy) promptly wrote down "Charley The Brat".

I've not heard this before & I like to pride myself on believing that's there is not much about Queen Mary I don't know. Please can you supply a reference for this?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 13, 2010, 11:04:01 AM
Tantrums may be 'normal' in two-year-olds but still very difficult for the parents to cope with when they're in the middle of it all. Not being a parent myself, I find it difficult, to say the least, to get my head round the modern idea that parents are supposed to love  their children uncritically however bad their behaviour (I can honestly say my parents were not like that with me). Though her offspring all had nannies, the first three arrived close together - 18 months between Wilhelm and Charlotte, and just over two years between Charlotte and Heinrich. Having one problem child already, perhaps Victoria can be forgiven for being impatient with Charlotte. Things seem to have been easier with Heinrich all round - perhaps he was simply a more laid-back individual, as well as being the only one of the elder three who was fully healthy.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 13, 2010, 12:16:48 PM
I think Charlotte was "the bad apple" of the bunch of daughters of Fritz & Vicky. If they had been too hard on Wilhelm , it was because he was the heir, Charlotte had no such excuse. I do not find fault with Vicky on this one. None of her other children had the problems of telling lies, gossips and creating drama. Wilhelm maybe a bit over the top, but he was a genuine person himself (like him or not). It maybe Charlotte was a problematic person. Her relationship with her own daughter Feodora was also full of drama. Poor Vicky had to deal with that too.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 13, 2010, 12:36:22 PM
My point entirely.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 13, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Tantrums may be 'normal' in two-year-olds but still very difficult for the parents to cope with when they're in the middle of it all. Not being a parent myself, I find it difficult, to say the least, to get my head round the modern idea that parents are supposed to love  their children uncritically however bad their behaviour (I can honestly say my parents were not like that with me). Though her offspring all had nannies, the first three arrived close together - 18 months between Wilhelm and Charlotte, and just over two years between Charlotte and Heinrich. Having one problem child already, perhaps Victoria can be forgiven for being impatient with Charlotte. Things seem to have been easier with Heinrich all round - perhaps he was simply a more laid-back individual, as well as being the only one of the elder three who was fully healthy.

Ann

But Vicky's criticisms of her three eldest were far from being the exhausted cries of a mother run ragged by looking after three toddlers. She wrote of them critically in letters to her mother -exactly as the Queen had written of her own children. Wilhelm, in fact, usually comes off best as small child; Charlotte is called "a little silly", pretty but stupid (and yet her childhood letters show her to be a bright and quite funny child, turning on the charm that her enemies later noted with fear); Henry is criticized for his alleged ugliness, for constant crying, and also written off very fast as not very bright. This is in direct contrast to the way her younger children were treated: they were forgiven everything and both their looks and intelligence rather over-praised. Perhaps her treatment of the younger ones seems more "modern" in the sense of being more accepting.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 13, 2010, 03:54:27 PM
Tantrums may be 'normal' in two-year-olds but still very difficult for the parents to cope with when they're in the middle of it all. Not being a parent myself, I find it difficult, to say the least, to get my head round the modern idea that parents are supposed to love  their children uncritically however bad their behaviour (I can honestly say my parents were not like that with me). Though her offspring all had nannies, the first three arrived close together - 18 months between Wilhelm and Charlotte, and just over two years between Charlotte and Heinrich. Having one problem child already, perhaps Victoria can be forgiven for being impatient with Charlotte. Things seem to have been easier with Heinrich all round - perhaps he was simply a more laid-back individual, as well as being the only one of the elder three who was fully healthy.

Ann

But Vicky's criticisms of her three eldest were far from being the exhausted cries of a mother run ragged by looking after three toddlers. She wrote of them critically while assessing their personalities in letters to her mother -exactly as the Queen had written of her own children. Wilhelm, in fact, usually comes off best as small child; Charlotte is called "a little silly", pretty but stupid (and yet her childhood letters show her to be a bright and quite funny child, turning on the charm that her enemies later noted with fear); Henry is criticized for his alleged ugliness, for constant crying, and also written off very fast as not very bright. This is in direct contrast to the way her younger children were treated: they were forgiven everything and both their looks and intelligence rather over-praised. Perhaps Victoria's treatment of the younger ones seems more "modern" in the sense of being more accepting.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 13, 2010, 03:58:10 PM
I think Charlotte was "the bad apple" of the bunch of daughters of Fritz & Vicky. If they had been too hard on Wilhelm , it was because he was the heir, Charlotte had no such excuse. I do not find fault with Vicky on this one. None of her other children had the problems of telling lies, gossips and creating drama. Wilhelm maybe a bit over the top, but he was a genuine person himself (like him or not). It maybe Charlotte was a problematic person. Her relationship with her own daughter Feodora was also full of drama. Poor Vicky had to deal with that too.

Wilhelm was a hypocrite of the first order, in his sex life among other things, and a notoriously two-faced man as well; and both he and his sister Moretta were adept at creating drama.
Vicky was dead by the time the worst dramas in Feodora's life took place, of course.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 13, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
What about Wilhelm sex life? 0_o. Sorry i dont use to get interested in pwersonal life but that took my attention
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 14, 2010, 04:15:11 AM
'This is in direct contrast to the way her younger children were treated: they were forgiven everything and both their looks and intelligence rather over-praised. Perhaps Victoria's treatment of the younger ones seems more "modern" in the sense of being more accepting.'

This is interesting. Again, I think there is a parallel with Queen Victoria, who was not all that fond of her eldest daughter as a child (young Victoria was the Albert's eye, however) and highly critical of her eldest son. I don't know enough about the younger daughters to be able to say much about Victoria's treatment of them, but certainly the two sons she liked best and was least critical of were the two youngest, Arthur and Leopold.

Perhaps both Victorias were extreme cases of 'be tough on the eldest and spoil the youngest syndrome'! Interestingly, Heinrich seems to have turned out a thoroughly pleasant fellow, maybe not the world's brightest but very interested in technology. And despite his mama's complaining about his ugliness as a boy, he became quite a handsome man.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Kalafrana on March 14, 2010, 07:28:25 AM
I meant to say that young Victoria was the apple of Albert's eye, of course, and the possessive Queen Victoria was rather jealous of Albert's affection for their daughter.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2010, 03:37:00 PM
I think Vicky had a good relationship with the younger children because she was allowed more hands on with them. Gradually, she was able to reconcile herself with Heinrich (thanks to the tactful Irene I think) and later with Wilhelm. She had learn to tune down her high expectations on them (very hard to achieve). Charlotte was someone she never really trusts, perhaps she had a problemetic personality because she was sick ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 26, 2010, 08:38:37 AM
1862

(http://i42.tinypic.com/24ca7op.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Alexander1917 on April 26, 2010, 02:36:43 PM
That's the one that Queen Victoria 'ruined' by shaking so much due to nerves. She recorded that Vicky was much calmer than herself.

I read somewhere that QV couldn't wait until the daguerreotype was ready. (when I remember right, you have to wait and stand still for about 5 minutes)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 04, 2010, 02:54:12 PM
(http://i39.tinypic.com/116v1tt.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2010, 02:58:32 PM
Nice photo...How many layers does that dress has ? Or was it part of the chair ?  :D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 04, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
is her dress.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2010, 03:06:04 PM
Thanks ! But at least 3 to 4 layers I can see.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 05, 2010, 09:17:30 AM
Unfortunatley, it is also just her. Vicky was usually a very pump lady. She was also very short. However, during the latter 19th century, pumpness in women was actually considered an attractive state.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 05, 2010, 10:33:49 AM
I think Vicky was very pretty her entire life (very pretty face, like Queen Olga of Greece)! whom cares about her size? being pretty doesn't mean you have to be skinny as a stick :P I find skinny to be sickly and gross looking. Most men i have meant, including my boyfriend, likes curves.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 05, 2010, 05:28:22 PM
the ones that were interested in the question, I guess. I think V was very pleasing and attractive, too, but that does not mask the fact that she was plumpish and certainly by today's standards appeared to have been overweight in the period the photo above was taken.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 05, 2010, 08:24:17 PM
Yes. Vicky's attractivesness lies in her facial features, which could be child like and angelic looking. When she was talking about her favourite things, she could be a very fasinating and engaging personality. Even Bismark once fell under her charm, but he hated her more because of it and consider her influences "dangerous"...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 06, 2010, 08:48:26 AM
Also in her coloring. She had lovely bright blue eyes and a nice complexion. I believe her hair was a darkish blonde? Next to Louise, I find Vicky to be the loveliest of Victoria's daughters. Helena and Beatrice were too stolid while Alice I never found a beauty despite what some (including Vicky) have written. I think Vicky, like Louise, had a very fine bone structure which you can see even under the plumpness. This is what sets her apart, to me, from Helena & Beatrice who were equally plump. And, like Beatrice, she got a prince who was arguably one of the best looking princes of his time so let's hear it for the plump girls!  :)  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 06, 2010, 09:13:26 AM
Yes. She was very pretty and attractive in a girlish way. Unlike Sisi and Alix of Wales, who were ugly and grew into great beauties.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 06, 2010, 01:04:28 PM
She did get the best looking prince of the day, as well as one of the most attractive in other ways--charm, education, sense of duty and family, loving father, etc.

I always thought Vicky was more in the brown hair coloration; Fritz was definitely a blonde. Vicky did gray prematurely and of course left it be as nature made it.

I also agree that Vicky had a far more pleasing appearance than sister Alice, but I have to say that the large portrait of Alice daughter Alix had in her study at Tsarkoe Selo shows Alice as a stunningly good looking lady.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 07, 2010, 10:40:17 AM
I disagree. Alice's beauty lies in her lady-like femininity and quiet charm. Vicky was a bit more agressive and girlish than her. In fact Vicky always felt than men prefer Alice to herself. She once wrote on the a photo of herself and Alice and labeled herself as "the ugly sister" to Alice's pretty one.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 07, 2010, 10:53:20 AM
Another cute picture of Victoria

(http://i43.tinypic.com/4si2dj.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 07, 2010, 11:04:11 AM
I disagree. Alice's beauty lies in her lady-like femininity and quiet charm. Vicky was a bit more agressive and girlish than her. In fact Vicky always felt than men prefer Alice to herself. She once wrote on the a photo of herself and Alice and labeled herself as "the ugly sister" to Alice's pretty one.

what are you disagreeing with?

by the by, "aggressive" and "girlish" are conflicting characteristics that don't exist unless someone has a bipolar type personality, which Vicky did not.

Also lady like feminity and charm can exist in a classic beauty or an ugly duckling. Has nothing to do with physical appearance.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 07, 2010, 11:19:15 AM
thats exactly what i said in other topic talking about "elegance". I dont know why some people thinks that beauty and Feminity (or elegance) are the same thing, which its absolutely NOT.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 07, 2010, 11:46:49 AM
I think Alice's face is more well porptioned  than Vicky's child like round one, it is a matter of taste really.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 07, 2010, 12:06:38 PM
I disagree. Alice's beauty lies in her lady-like femininity and quiet charm. Vicky was a bit more agressive and girlish than her. In fact Vicky always felt than men prefer Alice to herself. She once wrote on the a photo of herself and Alice and labeled herself as "the ugly sister" to Alice's pretty one.

That's what I referenced. I just don't agree but it's all opinion (beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that). I actually think Alice the LEAST attractive, save perhaps Helena. She had a very long nose and such a depressing expression. When I was a young teen just starting to study Queen Victoria and her family, she reminded me of a witch and I've never been able to entirely shake the impression!  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 07, 2010, 12:47:37 PM
Yes. After all, Alice's daughters were prettier than Vicky's (save Charley the Brat). Ella and Alicky had that "sad look" too from their mother. VMH had the long nose too...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 07, 2010, 01:00:02 PM
Another cute picture of Victoria

(http://i43.tinypic.com/4si2dj.jpg)

I think that photo was taken after the death of her father, this session you can see her with little Willy and baby Charlotte.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: wildone on May 07, 2010, 02:23:12 PM
Yes. After all, Alice's daughters were prettier than Vicky's (save Charley the Brat). Ella and Alicky had that "sad look" too from their mother. VMH had the long nose too...

I think all of her daughters inherited her long nose.  Alice is one of those people, IMO, who would have looked better as she aged... her face would softened, which would have reduced the harshness of her nose and other features.  Not unlike Queen Elizabeth II, if you compare pictures of her now to some of the ones taken during her young adulthood.

Vicky is another one who got better looking with age.  She looked especially distinguished in her later years, when she was slimmer with grey/white hair.  Hopefully her slimmer appearance wasn't due to the fact that she was already ill...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 07, 2010, 11:00:09 PM

by the by, "aggressive" and "girlish" are conflicting characteristics that don't exist unless someone has a bipolar type personality, which Vicky did not.

Obviously you are not a devotee of the character of Her Impish Highness, Grand Duchess Anastasia. :-)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 08, 2010, 12:40:50 PM

by the by, "aggressive" and "girlish" are conflicting characteristics that don't exist unless someone has a bipolar type personality, which Vicky did not.

Obviously you are not a devotee of the character of Her Impish Highness, Grand Duchess Anastasia. :-)

No I'm not.  :)  But, we're talking about grown women, not children. Vicky was hardly "girlish" by any matter of means. She was one of the most mature and sophisticated of royal Europe of her day and to demean her with labels that diminish her maturity is way off base, imo, based on all I know of Vicky. She did not resort or have to utilize childlike affectations; in fact, it was indeed her head-to-head ability to lock horns with the greatest men of her surroundings that resulted in her less than favorable ratings by some.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 09, 2010, 08:45:42 AM
Victoria with younger  daughters and son in law constantine of Greece, all in mourning

(http://i42.tinypic.com/20j322v.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 09, 2010, 09:11:29 AM
I believe this was part of Sophie & Constantine's engagement sitting, sad that it was. They were in mourning for Emperor Frederick.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 09, 2010, 09:19:23 AM
Wonderful picture- thank you Katenka!

Wasn't it wonderful & kind of the Duchess de Galliera to provide Victoria with 5 million francs. As Victoria herself wrote it came as a "godsend" during the tough year of 1889. Wilhelm clearly behaved very obstinately about a suitable home for his mother and god knows where she would have lived if he had his way. The gift enabled Victoria to build the beautiful Friedrichshof which she wouldn't otherwise have been able to do.

I think it was karma & almost mysterious, that Victoria received the gift in 1889 when she was going through so many struggles - she certainly deserved it.

I believe Victoria was one of the most wonderful & intelligent Empresses that ever lived - in an age when most Royal ladies where happy to live a purely ornamental role!! Germany did not deserve her!! God bless her!!

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 09, 2010, 03:59:10 PM
She was one of the most intelligent and wonderful royals overall--among the small group of empresses or the vast array of royals and nobilty that numbered in the thousands. And agree, her status and essense, on measure, remains a role model for royals today, although I suspect few even know who she was.

Germany most definitely deserved her; and she deserved Germany. She and Fritz had great plans; the fact that each was short lived does not bring cause to trash the country she admired (as did her mother and father) and the home of her beloved husband.

As for the "mystery" of the gift she received from her close friend, it is no mystery at all. First of all, it wasn't a gift; it was an inheritance. The Duchess and ther son were very much large benefactors of public and social causes as well as admirers of things German. The son was a professor of German history. After much of her estate was distributed for various causes and institutions, the balance was split between her son and Vicky. The Duchess was well aware of Vicky's situation and was capable and willing to have Vicky in her Will.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 09, 2010, 04:53:45 PM
Yes, with her idealistic "professoralism" she was in many ways more German than the Germans. Too bad they didn't appreciate her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 09, 2010, 06:38:58 PM
It was the Junker element of Germany that didn't appreciate her and that she had nothing in common with. She was very much in line with the Goethe-like aspects of Germany and had many admirers in many areas who did value what she brought to the role of Crown Princess and Empress. As for Friedrich III, he was such an almost ideal prince--the kind you would read about in novels--that he does seem almost too good to be true in many ways. As HerrKaiser pointed out, he was extremely well-educated (though he seemed to lack some of Victoria's intellectual curiosity), cultured, idealistic, forward-thinking, a man who would succeed well in the diplomatic aspects of royalty but who also excelled as a military leader of men. Of course, he was a flesh & blood man with a number of weaknesses and failings but on the whole, especially when compared with some of his contemporaries, he was indeed a Prince Charming. Of all royal men, he is definitely my favorite. I always found the postcards at his death that referenced 'Unser Fritz' extremely touching and indicative of such a personal attachment on the part of his subjects.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: kmerov on May 09, 2010, 07:19:36 PM
They are one of my favorite royal couples aswell. But I think that Vicky and her parents didn't take into account, to say the least, that her role as a Prussian Princess would not mach with the role designed for her as English princess coming to change the country, and also that she lacked the ability to be humble as a "newcomer."   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: kmerov on May 09, 2010, 07:23:12 PM
And illustation of the new German Emperor and Empress in 1888.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/RF%20of%20Preussia/FriedrichIIIVictoria.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 10, 2010, 01:24:40 AM


As for the "mystery" of the gift she received from her close friend, it is no mystery at all. First of all, it wasn't a gift; it was an inheritance. The Duchess and ther son were very much large benefactors of public and social causes as well as admirers of things German. The son was a professor of German history. After much of her estate was distributed for various causes and institutions, the balance was split between her son and Vicky. The Duchess was well aware of Vicky's situation and was capable and willing to have Vicky in her Will.

You completely missed my point but never mind.

To say the Duchess "was well aware of Vicky situation" is inaccurate. The Empress herself wrote to her mother on 15/04/1889 "..She little knew what a godsend  her bequest would be to me as it enables me to make a comfortable and independent country home to end my days in, which I could not have done withoutany capital"

Yes I was ref ferring to those that referred to her as "Die Engländerin" - funny when you think her ancestry was very German!! 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 10, 2010, 07:43:37 AM
in the illustration, Victoria looks like Wilhelm I`s consort, Augusta of Saxe Weimar :-S

A happy, beautiful and young victoria with her little daughter Charlotte


(http://i42.tinypic.com/2dw927b.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 10, 2010, 07:44:40 AM
Vicky was the brains in the family and one of the best well read person of QV's children.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 09:08:00 AM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2ywcytv.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 12, 2010, 09:09:56 AM
Lovely ! I think this photo is hand tainted.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 09:11:54 AM
yes ,. The one who did it was  very talented handtinting. He also did one of Victoria

(http://i42.tinypic.com/nc1hq9.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 13, 2010, 11:32:05 AM
Victoria and one of her kids. Which one¨? i dont know so any info is welcome!

(http://i43.tinypic.com/24v8pcj.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 13, 2010, 11:54:03 AM
Moretta maybe? Vicky's older, plumper and her hair is different from when she had Charlotte & Wilhelm and perhaps even Sigismund and Henry.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on May 13, 2010, 12:40:32 PM
I'm quite sure he's Waldemar in1868
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 13, 2010, 02:41:26 PM
I can't believe I forgot Waldemar! I just knew it wasn't one of her 'early' children.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 13, 2010, 05:20:17 PM
Indeed. Although Waldemar and Sigismund died young. Interesting that those were the names used for Henry and Irene's children.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 13, 2010, 08:26:25 PM
Didn't Henry deliberately pick them to honor his brothers? I could swear I read that was the case, at least with Waldemar.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 14, 2010, 11:00:07 AM
Yes. Although it could also be Irene's tact to be a comfort to Vicky, who lost both of her beloved sons.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 10:48:09 AM
(http://i48.tinypic.com/w85g04.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 07, 2010, 11:52:51 AM
A nice one of Vicky. She was more cute than beautiful.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 07, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
Yes, she had a heartshaped face which made her look younger and cute.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 07, 2010, 03:44:36 PM
Such things are in the eye of the beholder. I find Vickie to have been extremely beautiful by the standard norms of elegance, intelligence, carriage, posture, facial characteristics and lovelieness, personality, etc. Her formal portraits display a beauty among those of her rank to be of a high level, imo. I think the word that may not apply to her is "gorgeous", but then very few in the royal history deserve that label.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2010, 01:27:37 PM
I think Sisi (Empress of Austria), Alix (Princess of Wales) and Eugenie (Empress of the French) were international beauties. Among Vicky's family, Ella (Grand Duchess Sergeof Russia), Charlotte (Princess of Saxe-Meiningen, Vicky's daughter), Louise (Duchess of Argyle and sister of Vicky (she was deem the beauty in the family)) and Missy (Queen Marie of Romania). QV did not think that her eldest daughter was beautiful, a statement Vicky herself seem to believe. Personaly, I think Vicky's charm was much more attractive than her features.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 08, 2010, 01:43:51 PM
Agreed, but I think QV's comment about Vicky's lack of beauty was when Vicky was a youngster, not a matured woman and wife and mother when her beauty, imo, showed forth quite remarkably.

As charm and personality can make a not so attractive person score higher on the beauty scale, so can the reverse be true. That's why I have never found Queen Alexandra anything but ugly.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2010, 01:53:49 PM
Not exactly. She once wrote on a photo with her sister Alice. "The beautiful sister (meaning Alice) and the ugly one (meaning herself)". She wrote to QV that on a visit of her sister Alice to Berlin, her father-in-law (Kaiser Wilhelm I, a noted appreciator of beautiful woman) was very attentive to Alice and hang on to her every word, while she never had that effect on the old gentleman.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 09, 2010, 07:54:42 AM
Friedrich in a relaxed pose.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/xaz869.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on June 12, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/w85g04.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/w85g04.jpg)

what a beautiful picture of Vicky! thanks for posting it!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 13, 2010, 09:54:17 AM
You welcome!!!

Another nice image of her

(http://i47.tinypic.com/6501g8.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on June 16, 2010, 01:12:14 AM
i was searching my photobucket and i came across this one
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/mw194275-1.jpg)
not sure if its been posted. it was a new one for me when i found it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on June 16, 2010, 05:16:33 AM
Very nice Thank You ! The baby is Victoria Moretta ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 16, 2010, 09:09:02 AM
nope, i havent seen thast one before, thank you!!!

Friedrich with Wilhelm and Heinrich

(http://i46.tinypic.com/n6573b.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Rani on June 17, 2010, 06:33:24 PM
Vicky with Wilhelm

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/IMAGE0036.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 17, 2010, 06:36:04 PM
Very cute ! I wonder what dreams Vicky had for her eldest son. It is cruel to see her dreams dashed.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Rani on June 17, 2010, 06:39:10 PM
I heard in a docu about Wilhelm II., that the birth was so hard, that Vicky nearly died.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 17, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
She was a bit young to have a child I guess.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on June 17, 2010, 10:14:26 PM
It had more to do with the fact that he was breech (often fatal to baby and/or mother in those days) than her age. There was a good deal of blood loss. Her youth & health probably aided her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 18, 2010, 07:04:19 AM
The couple in costume, (Thanks Orleans from dinastias!)

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3/victoriadeinglaterra52.jpg)

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6682/lein113.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 18, 2010, 09:20:52 AM
Fritz's beard fit right in his renassance costume.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 18, 2010, 11:40:30 AM
She was a bit young to have a child I guess.

Vickie was definitely not too young to bear a child. The breech position of the baby was exacerbated by several other complications. Even in modern hospitals of today, that birth would be considered a very difficult one and dangerous. By most standards, Vickie was VERY lucky to have survived, and the long process and violent birth rendered the baby's arm with irrepairable damage.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 18, 2010, 11:42:18 AM
The couple in costume, (Thanks Orleans from dinastias!)



This photo of Fritz seems to show him more trim and his facial structure and nose a bit thinner than his usual appearance. Of course his beard is a bit less weighty, but this look is one of Fritz' best. Good looking man for sure.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 04, 2010, 08:48:05 AM
(http://i50.tinypic.com/15wje2s.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 06, 2010, 01:57:25 PM
handtinted image of Friedrich

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2e2kxo1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2010, 02:52:53 PM
Nice image of him. Taken out of an auction catalogue ? Just wondering...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 06, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
Nope, Google images from a german site,
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2010, 02:56:31 PM
Thanks for the info...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Rani on July 06, 2010, 05:29:24 PM
(http://i46.tinypic.com/346rdzd.jpg)

as a young girl
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2010, 06:03:23 PM
Winterhalter ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Rani on August 18, 2010, 07:09:37 AM
Winterhalter ?


I forgot you, sorry. It´s Winterhalter!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 18, 2010, 07:17:28 AM
What a weird portrait for  a kronprinzenpaar!. It could be another mislabeled one ?. I ve seen another osimilar, labeled as "queen Victoria and Albert", but in the end it wasnt them.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2010, 08:04:42 AM
I think it is romantic !
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 18, 2010, 08:08:27 AM
Yes it is but weird for a royal couple, even more if its a portrait of the era (That kind of demostrations of love were private...)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2010, 10:34:05 AM
I've seen it labeled as them--perhaps in a book? It was supposed to represent Vicky sending Fritz off to war.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 18, 2010, 11:54:11 AM
I have seen this labeled as such before, as well. Unfortunately, the style does not allow us the clearly ID either Vicky or Fritz; could be anyone, really. And there's no identifiers other than the Knights Cross he is wearing, but that was not only for the royal family.

nonetheless, it is a nice image and in spirit with their relationship. And it is far more likely that a casual or affectionate painting would be made of German royals than, say, the the english cousins who were more prim and proper.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 23, 2010, 11:19:30 AM
Dashing Fritz!

(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/246/photo1wq.jpg)

Interestingly the card is embossed "1885" which is a nice detail!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on August 23, 2010, 05:04:05 PM
In that very uniform from the photo. Much note was made of the figure he cut in his white uniform with his silver breastplate glittering in the sunlight. Not to mention his height which was greater than most of his contemporaries there. A regular Lohengrin come to life. Always my favorite male royal.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 23, 2010, 08:04:23 PM
yes, and the British really did emotionally adopt him as a loved one if not one of their own. "unser fritz" had meaning in both nations.

it's truly one of history's great tragic lost opportunities that he (and Vicky) did not live to be at least the age of his father which would have taken him to the year 1922.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 24, 2010, 08:01:22 AM
Cabinet card with an illustration of Frederick

(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3846/8978831.jpg) (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/8978831.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 24, 2010, 05:55:19 PM
I guess that it wouldn't technically be a cabinet card since it's not a photograph.

the script is impossible for me to discern; anyone?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 25, 2010, 06:37:30 AM
its a cabinet card. It wasnt necesary to have a photography to be one. There are also a lot of CDVS with illustrations.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 25, 2010, 06:51:42 AM
Reminds me of my Dads cigarette cards, just enlarged!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 25, 2010, 07:11:24 AM
Yup, i also thought it could be a cigarrete card but its a Cabinet card.


There was a Cabinet C of 4 Hohenzollern generation with Wilhelm I having Kronprinz Wilhelm in his arms. Since it was a popular format, you can also put Illustrations as C.C
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 25, 2010, 11:13:19 AM
I have a few of those drawings cabinet cards too. One of Bismark with Wilhelm I and another one three generations of Hohenzollern.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Rani on August 26, 2010, 10:59:31 AM
http://royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/object.asp?category=276&pagesize=60&object=405280&row=1982&detail=magnify
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 22, 2010, 09:29:48 AM
Drawn of Victoria by Anton von Werner

(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5978/antonvonwernerfigurenst.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/antonvonwernerfigurenst.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on October 14, 2010, 11:42:11 AM
Victoria in 1876. I like her sweet face
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5269/scansione0008x.jpg) (http://img524.imageshack.us/i/scansione0008x.jpg/)
By Mondel & Jacob, Weisbaden

And the one I've posted in Alice Topic by mistake : Victoria and her son Heinrich in 1863 at Balmoral
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9184/scansione0005g.jpg) (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/scansione0005g.jpg/)
By G.W.Wilson
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on October 14, 2010, 12:02:20 PM
August 1882. The two youngest children of the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Prussia Sossy and Mossy ( Sophie is on the left ) visited the isle of Wight
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1670/scansione0013c.jpg) (http://img403.imageshack.us/i/scansione0013c.jpg/)
By Arthur Debenham
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 16, 2010, 08:53:08 AM
beautiful image of Sossie and Mossy!. thank you!!

a portrait of them by anton van Werner. Credits to the site of the watermark.

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2442/antonvonwernerstudiepri.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/i/antonvonwernerstudiepri.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2010, 06:30:06 PM
Lovely image, KF. Werner seems to have been a favorite of the Crown Princess. Several works were also commissioned by QV of the German royals.

The previous photo can be found in the book (many years old now) that was done by Frances Dimond and contained works from the Royal Collection. The name was Crown and Camera. It had some really interesting photos for anyone who want to pick it up. It's not all royalty though--many were photos either taken by the royals or collected by them of landscapes or regular people.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on October 17, 2010, 08:12:39 AM
The previous photo can be found in the book (many years old now) that was done by Frances Dimond and contained works from the Royal Collection. The name was Crown and Camera. It had some really interesting photos for anyone who want to pick it up. It's not all royalty though--many were photos either taken by the royals or collected by them of landscapes or regular people.
Do You know that book ? It's an interesting book that I bought many years ago in London. Infact the photo I've posted comes from that book  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 18, 2010, 08:39:19 AM
Yes, that was one of my earliest purchases way back when you had to find out titles from Royalty or Majesty magazine. LOL The stone ages before the internet! I still have it and always loved the royal photos in it--just wished there were more. I imagine it would be easier for people to get now.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 18, 2010, 12:25:11 PM
Thanks for the heads up! I just ordered it and was very reasonable! Can't wait to receive it!!!:)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 18, 2010, 08:20:20 PM
Glad we were both able to tip you onto something good Eddie.  :) :)

Some of my fave pictures were the one posted of Sophie/Mossy, a dual image of Victoria Wales and little Alice Albany with a parasol. There's also a huge smiley one of Alix Hesse as a chubby toddler and several others that I've never seen outside this book. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on October 19, 2010, 12:20:26 AM
I will post more photos from that book to share with all of you  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 21, 2010, 01:37:23 AM
Thank you so much grandduchessella! The book arrived yesterday & I love it!!! :):):)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2010, 05:30:10 PM
Frances Dimond is now working on a bio of Queen Alexandra. I am sure it would be nicely illustrated. She told me that she is slowing working on it.

Any idea on the Sophie & Mossy portrait by Anton Von Werner ? I know he painted the christening of Willy & Dona's first child. Love to know if the Sophie/Mossy painting survived the war.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 05, 2010, 03:13:40 PM
Charlotte, Heinrich and Wilhelm

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2972/58956609.jpg) (http://img210.imageshack.us/i/58956609.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: violetta on December 17, 2010, 10:13:37 AM
margaret,victoria,sophie

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/margaretevictoriasophie.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: guinevere on December 20, 2010, 11:35:15 PM
margaret,victoria,sophie

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/margaretevictoriasophie.jpg)

... I would say, from left to right it is Sophie, Victoria and Margarethe...  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2010, 08:17:40 AM
You are absolutely correct. Is this from the NPG ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 21, 2010, 12:10:35 PM
Looks like it. They have the whole series.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2010, 12:17:38 PM
NPG is a treasure trove...In 2008 I found a glass negative of Moretta & Ena in the glossary and asked for a print when I was in London. They made one for me. I think they now have it in their regular collection. I think there maybe more waiting to be discovered...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 21, 2010, 09:31:11 PM
No doubt. Many of the subjects have photo lines marked as 'not yet online'. They've increased their online presence hugely in the last few years though. Any of their prints can be ordered at various cost--obviously moreso if someone is going to use them in a book--but not a bad price to just have a collectible.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2010, 11:14:00 AM
Yes...I am afraid to get overboard on that. The photo of Sophie on low decoletee is really attractive (sexy yet innocent). The head shot was used in the paperback edition of "Born to Rule".