Alexander Palace Forum
Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: grandduchessella on May 29, 2004, 11:54:40 PM
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I was reading Camera and the Tsars (GREAT book!) and in a photo of GD Michael Michaelovich it says that before he married Countess Torby, he "believed himself in love" and proposed to both Irene of Hesse and Louise of Wales (at separate times of course!) and was turned down by both. Does anyone have any more information on this? Was Irene's heart already set on Henry of Prussia and did Queen Alexandra have anything to do with Louise's refusal? Ihad never read any of this before.
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They just probably thought he was a yutz. Miche-Miche, in my opinion, was in love with love. He was a ripe apple falling off a tree, and thought by his relatives to be an idiot.
Anyhow, I understand that he flirted with Princess Victoria of Hesse as well.
He later wrote a book about his love affairs, fictionalized, and his brothers pooled together to buy the entire edition... though one or two slipped out of their hands.
He constantly wrote to NII for money, living as he did in exile in England.
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He later wrote a book about his love affairs, fictionalized, and his brothers pooled together to buy the entire edition... though one or two slipped out of their hands.
The University of California owns a copy of this book -- it's in their NRLF/SRLF collection. I have read it and it's pretty sucky. His style is florid and dramatic, but he doesn't hide the true identity of his characters very well at all, so it's kind of a fun read! I read somewhere that Xenia Alexandrovna had no problems picking herself out and was pretty pissed about it... :o
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From other boards where I asked this, I gathered the following:
Yes, he seemed to fall in and out of love rather alarmingly. :)
He proposed to Louise of Wales first, then Irene and even approached the Duke of Teck regarding his daughter, the future Queen Mary, and several others! Luckily, I guess these princesses either saw through him or their parents' did.
Wasn't he independently wealthy though until the Revolution? I thought he had a good deal of money, but it was kept in Russia which is where it was lost.
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He would have received an annual allowance that would have allowed him to live in a degree of luxury and comfort. In addition, he may have received monies from his parents during their lifetime and from the Tsar from time to time.
Wealth is a rather relative adjective. If he spent everything he got and never bought property, then he probably was chronically short of funds. His daughter Anastasia married a very wealthy man in the teens (1915?) and it is likely that she helped him, though I don't know if this is the case or not.
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Mikhail Mikhailovitch's daughters both made matches, which if not quite royal, commanded a mixture of financial security and social status. Nadejda married the Marquess of Milford Haven, eldest son of Louis and Victoria Battenberg, thus status if not money. Anastasia married Sir Harold Wernher, who was indeed quite wealthy and lived at Luton Hoo, which I believe has some rather nice Imperial artefacts.
Mikhail's marriage was nonetheless a morganatic marriage and I am pretty sure that one of the reasons that he and his wife lived in England was because Sophie would never have been accepted by the IF back in Russia. Did the Tsar punish him in the same way that Kyrill and Ducky were punished, ie loss of rank and income?
I'm sure that I also read somewhere that after the revolution that Mikhail and his family, like so many others, were obliged to live off the proceeds of the sale of his wife's jewels; in spite of this the current Marchioness still owns a wonderful taira set with rubies and diamonds that certainly belonged to Nadejda and may have belonged to her mother.
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Just to emphasis a point that Martyn made... Nada and Georgie did not marry for money. As a matter of fact, Louis and Victoria made it quite clear to Miche-Miche that Georgie (relatively speaking) would be making his own way.
Cool that you got to see the goofy book, Penny!
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King George V complained to Nicholas II several times at having to receive Miche-Miche, and how he always howled about needing more money. As far as I can tell, though, he lived pretty well-Kenwood House on Hampstead Heath, where he lived-has a lot of records and documents related to his time there, and they show he certainly wasn't lacking funds!
Greg King
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Grandduchessella,
I have read that Irene wasn't attracted to the Russians the way Ella and Alix were. She really wanted to stay "closer to home" and marry a German. Queen Victoria was very happy with her decision! :)
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...happy with her decision not to marry a Russian, but not particularly happy with Henry. That took the Queen a little bit longer!
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Do you have any informations about Princess Irene of Hesse and Prince Henry Prussia? about their courtship and how Irene changed Henry's attitude?
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Henry and Irene were married in the private chapel of Charlottenburg Palace on 24th May 1888, which also happened to be her grandmother Queen Victoria's birthday. Ella and Serge came from Russia and the Pce of Wales from England for the wedding.
I think that Irene actaully achieved a rapprochement between Henry and his mother; Vicky was very fond of Irene although the latter came into conflict with her mother-in-law over Ernie's divorce, as Vicky seemed to take Ducky's side, believing her to be more deserving of symapthy and support.
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She certainly wasn't! I went into that on another thread, but while I was looking through my books, I found this:
QV to VMH Feb 1886: [annoyed at Louis taking Irene to St Petersburg] ...and then for poor Irene, is is most awkward for no end of reports have been spread & I KNOW that Olga Cecile (wife of GD Michael N.) is BENT upon Micha's marrying her! I shall NEVER forgive it, is she also is to go to that horrid, corrupt Country--& I shld. break with Papa if he did it! I feel SO STRONGLY about it that you must not be suprised if I express myself as I do.
Good thing poor Louis wasn't around for the N&A match. Wonder if QV's reaction would've been different then it was if he'd been alive? She may have indeed been angered if he didn't prevent it, but cut them 'some slack' since Alix was orphaned.
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Think QV mostly annoyed that she had to read about the engagement in the papers. Also, though Irene was sneaky about the whole thing.
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Yeah, she definitely didn't like being 'out of the loop'. She goes on and on about how it was done behind her back, that Irene broke her word, etc...Poor Irene though--no one likes to be called sneaky or manipulative. She was just in love! I wouldnt have been surprised if they'd tried to let her know and QV didn't want to hear it and heard/saw what she wanted. Just assumed everyone would fall in line. I pity poor VMH. That letter had so many italics which represent underlining in the original letters. I just have the feeling that she got pages of underlines! I think I read once that QV once underlined a passage 6 times.
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VMH is certainly to be pitied in this instance. I think that she must often have been on the receiving end of her grandmother's expressions of indignation about family issues. I love the underlining thing - I might try that!
I think that it was the Richrd Waugh book about Louis and Victoria that discussed Vicky and Irene's disagreement about Ernie's marital issues (I'll have to look it up); you are quite right that the divorce happened after the death of both Vicky and her mother.
David Duff seem to think that Irene was a little overlooked amongst her siblings as being less beautiful and less forceful in terms of personality. What do you think?
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I think it's probably true about the overshadowing. Irene was pretty but in a quiet, plainer way than Alix & Ella who were dazzling. Plus, she lacked VMH's forceful personality so she kind of ended up in 4th place. Then you look at the family connection--the Henrys were certainly popular w/their relatives for visits, official occasions, etc...but didn't do anything spectacular to warrant non-royalphile interest nowadays. She wasn't the mother of Earl Mountbatten or Queen of Sweden or grandmother of Prince Philip; she wasn't a legendarily beautiful GDSs who became a nun then a saint; she wasn't the tragic, beautiful last Empress of Russia w/all the accompanying drama of hemophilia, Rasputin, Revolution and horrific death. Irene just led her life quietly, suffering to be sure the tragedies of her family, but passed on just as quietly and out of public notice.
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Why were Henry and Irene called "The Very Amiables" amongst the family?
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I've wondered about this too, Martyn. I'm guessing it had to do with the fact that both of them were fairly well down on the "totem pole" and therefore had learned, early on, to be flexible and amiable rather than dogmatic in their dealings with other family members. I would like to know more about both of them . . . they seem to have been "lost in the shuffle," in my opinion!
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Also, 'cause they were both peacemakers. Probably had something to do with their birth order.
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I don't think that Henry was that "amiable" before his marriage to Irene. It has been fairly well documented that before his marriage, he, Charlotte and Willy were very much in the opposite camp to their parents and not always terriby pleasant to Vicky and Fritz.
Even after his marriage and the rapprochement that Irene achieved with him and Vicky, he was still in Willy's thrall; indeed any speech that Henry was required to give in public was written either by his brother or his brother's advisors. This was in order to avoid Henry making any kind of gaffe or utterance that might be contrary to Wilhelm's opinions; any departure from this resulted in the full force of Wilhelm's ire.
By the way, Irene was born at the end of the Austro Prussian war in July 1866. Irene in Greek means "peace"....Perhaps she was aptly named?
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i recall reading in a few places where it was briefly mentioned that Irene had to suffer through Henry's temper tantrums, and that their life together was rather patchy - in the sense that Henry was difficult to get along with. It would be nice to know what their marriage was really like. Plus - the tragedy of hemophilia affecting them all, with 2(?) of their 3 sons dying at early ages from it.
It seems that there really is alot of ground to cover for all the royal biographers out there, as we here on the forum would love to read so much more about all these personalities who appear only on the fringe of the more noteable royals.
masha
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i recall reading in a few places where it was briefly mentioned that Irene had to suffer through Henry's temper tantrums, and that their life together was rather patchy - in the sense that Henry was difficult to get along with. It would be nice to know what their marriage was really like. Plus - the tragedy of hemophilia affecting them all, with 2(?) of their 3 sons dying at early ages from it.It seems that there really is alot of ground to cover for all the royal biographers out there, as we here on the forum would love to read so much more about all these personalities who appear only on the fringe of the more noteable royals.
masha
I think that sums up why royal biographers don't write about them--they do exist on the 'fringe' of more famous/forceful personalities w/what is known of them being derived from what they saw/knew rather than anything they actually DID. I myself always enjoy reading about the 'lesser knowns' and seeing pictures of them. Even if their lives couldn't flesh out a whole book, their lives were still interesting and since so little IS written, it makes what's out there new and fresh. We know SO much about some that any new personalities are always great to discover. Until this group and books like Romanov Autumn, I didn't know about hardly any of the Romanovs save from AIII, MF, their immediate family and NAOTMAA. Now I know about so many diverse and interesting people in the family. Same with QV's family--you read so much about so few, that it gets a bit redundant and the new information is often to be found in the less-written-about members.
Still, I think they got on well-together and Irene was certainly the only one who seemed to be able to exert any influence over his temper. And she wore mourning (at least in the photos I've seen of her later years) apparently the rest of her life, even though it had gone out of vogue by then. Maybe that indicates something? As I've said before, I'm a sucker for romance (see the William & Ella discussion!) and I've always found theirs romantic.
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You're right GDElla, that is a great picture of them. It very much looks more like a modern photo than one for the 1880's.
I like Henry, I think that he must have been a character. It's rather sad that Irene gets a bit lost between Victoria, Ella and Alix but I'm pretty sure that she must have been able to hold her own with them - and lets face it they were strong women in different ways!
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Two things:
1. What are the names of the children/grandchildren in the photo above?
2. I see alot of resemblence between Irene and her niece Anastasia - especially in the eyes, brows, cheeks and chin.
Again - tonnes of thanks for the photos, GDssElla!!
Masha
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Two things:
1. What are the names of the children/grandchildren in the photo above?
2. I see alot of resemblence between Irene and her niece Anastasia - especially in the eyes, brows, cheeks and chin.
Again - tonnes of thanks for the photos, GDssElla!!
Masha
The children are:
Waldemar (with glasses)--their oldest (& hemophiliac) son & his wife Calixta of Lippe. They were childless.
Sigismund (on far left) with his wife Charlotte of Saxe-Altenberg (d.1989 at Hemmelmark) & their 2 children--daughter (Barbara--died just a few years ago; adopted as her grandmother's heir) and son Albert who lives in Costa Rica.
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Anyone else see a striking resemblance between little Barbara and photos of Anastasia as a little girl?
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I found a picture of Henry and Irene's mausoleum at Hemmelmark. Not real good though. Does any know of any other sites.
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What I find interesting with Henry and Irene is the quiet way they lived with their son's hemophila. It would be wonderful to read their diaries and to find out if Irene and Alix ever discussed their sons and how they helped each other out.
To me, Henry is one of history's what ifs. What if he had been the first born son? Makes one go..hmmmm
Louise
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I don't know how Irene & Henry handled it--I've just seen veiled references to it at all. QV notes with distress the signs of the illness in 'dear Irene's little boy' to VMH when discussing marriage prospects of Ernie. (She had thought of Maud of Wales but worried that the disease might manifest itself through the close relationship--not realizing that Maud or Ernie couldn't be a carrier I guess). Was Waldemar the first hemophiliac of the 3rd generation? He was the longest-lived royal hemophiliac surviving until 1945, dying only from lack of blood transfusion facilities I believe, while fleeing the Soviet Army. I wonder if he didn't have children by choice (seeing how Leopold of Albany produced a carrier daughter)?
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I think that Waldemar was the first carrier of his generation. Although I may have read somewhere that Mossy and Fischy had a haemophiliac among their children. I will investigate.
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I think that Waldemar was the first carrier of his generation. Although I may have read somewhere that Mossy and Fischy had a haemophiliac among their children. I will investigate.
I don't think any of Margaret's boys were haemophiliacs. Vicky was not a carrier. The disease among Henry's boys was inherited through their mother- the Hesse line. I think Margaret lost a couple of sons in the war though?
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Now I'm really curious to see a picture of Barbara as an adult. Did she look like Anastasia later as well? I guess that solves the "mystery" of who Anastasia took after. She had the looks of her mother's family.
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I don't think any of Margaret's boys were haemophiliacs. Vicky was not a carrier. The disease among Henry's boys was inherited through their mother- the Hesse line. I think Margaret lost a couple of sons in the war though?
I think she lost 2 sons in WW1 (Friedrich Wilhelm in Romania and Maximilian in France ) and 1 in WW2 (Christopher--married to Prince Philip's sister Sophie). She also lost her daughter-in-law Mafalda (daughter of the King of Italy) in Buchenwald and daughter-in-law Marie Alexandra of Baden in an air raid on Frankfurt during WW2.
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In Richard Hough's book about Louis and Victoria, he suggests that Irene felt the loss of Alix more deeply than Victoria Battenberg. He states that Irene and Alix, being the two younger sisters, had always been close and that the haemophilia of their sons created a common bond between the two sisters.
After WW1 , Victoria was able once more to visit her sister at Hemmelmark. Apparently she commented that although it was lovely to see Irene again, things would never be the same - war and tragedy having changed their lives inexorably.
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I couldn't find any additional photos of Barbara. Perhaps Art has some? She was married to Christian Ludwig of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (grandson of the infamous GDss Anastasia Mikhailaiovna). He became heir after his brother had a morganatic marriage but as they had no sons the male line of M-S died out.
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Landgravine Margaret of Hesse-Kassel did lose two sons during World War I and then a third son was killed in the Second World War. In addition, two of her three daughters-in-law (Marie Alexandra of Baden and Mafalda of Savoy) were also killed during the war, one in an air raid, the other one as a consequence of injuries suffered during an air raid at the concentration camp where the Nazis had sent her.
War and the Hesse did not mix well...
Arturo Beeche
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I couldn't find any additional photos of Barbara. Perhaps Art has some? She was married to Christian Ludwig of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (grandson of the infamous GDss Anastasia Mikhailaiovna). He became heir after his brother had a morganatic marriage but as they had no sons the male line of M-S died out.
Yes I do have photos of Barbara, but I am in Europe until the first week of October and cannot scan here. I met Princess Barbara several times. She always seemed terribly aloof, distant and not as nice as her brother Alfred...then again that is my opinion, but a close relation called her "terribly strong tempered," once.
Arturo Beeche
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Also, it is not certain that Vicky wasn't a carrier.
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Also, it is not certain that Vicky wasn't a carrier.
I thought it was certain--at least as far as it could be since none of her sons had the disease. I guess it could be lurking around (I'm no medical expert) and just never manifested itself, but 0/4 sons seems good odds. Also, it never manifested itself in any of her 4 daughters' children.
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I suppose Vicky could have been a carrier with the phenomenally good luck not to have the disease manifest itself in her offspring. Her mother had three older sons -- Albert, Alfred and Arthur -- who were not hemophiliacs. Then WHAM! comes Leopold, the eighth child. Say Vicky was a carrier and none of the four boys was a hemophiliac. Her eldest daughter had only a daughter, who had no children herself. Charlotte and Feodora might have been carriers without anyone knowing it. Moretta had no children either that survived. She might have been a carrier as well. It's an interesting thought. If Henry had been a hemophiliac and he and Irene had a daughter, they might have had a rare case of a girl with hemophilia.
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> Grand Duchess Ella wrote:
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> I don't know how Irene & Henry handled it--I've just seen veiled references to it at all.
From what I understand, Irene and Alix became closer after the birth of Alexei, sharing the commonality of fragile, often desperately-ill sons. There is also the implication that Irene was not as bossy/demanding/lecturing/"governessy" as Alix may have come to feel that Victoria (MH) and Ella were.
Of course, Irene's sons weren't as "important" as Alix's Alexei, and pressure was therefore greater on Alix, who also had a greater and more demanding role than as a wife of the younger brother of the Kaiser.
As sympathetic as Irene was, though, I think she shared the family unease with Alix's increasingly frantic searches for miracle cures from outré sources, culminating with the dénouement of distaste and distrust of Rasputin. (For that, I don't think Irene was as mystically-inclined as her sisters Ella and Alix, though all the Hessians seem to have been sincerely religious, a legacy, no doubt, of Grand Duchess Alice's earnest religious quests.)
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Yes I would think it was definitely a bond. I always got the impression (through what little info is out there) that Irene was pretty calm about it though undoubtably upset. Though her sons weren't 'important' as you say (since they had 6 healthy male cousins ahead of them) I think it's interesting that Waldemar actually survived until 1945 and if not for the Soviet invasion of Germany probably would've lived longer. Maybe the lack of pressure helped Irene to maintain a calmer environment. I think she was a good Lutheran and it's a much more straightforward religion than Catholicism (my religion) or Orthodoxy in terms of mysticism and the frou-frou aspects (for want of a better word!). I don't think she was of religiously inquiring mind. Sad that she'd suffer the loss of a son to hemophilia--I wonder at Alix's reaction to that? It would've come before Alexei's birth--I wonder how much that weighed on her and if her reaction would've been different if she'd already had a hemophilac son? I don't imagine for an instant she wasn't sympathetic but that it would've had an entirely different frame of reference after Alexei.
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Arrgh. I didn't realize there were space constraints and so wrote a long reply to Grand Duchess Ella, only to lose the entire thing when I hit the wrong button! :'(
So... ici j'essaye encore...
Grand Duchess Ella wrote:
Yes I would think it was definitely a bond. I always got the impression (through what little info is out there) that Irene was pretty calm about it though undoubtedly upset.
I think Iréne had a personality more similar to Victoria Milford Haven's than that of Alix (could be wrong, of course.) It appears, through mentions of her in letters and diaries, that she just kind of calmly went her own way in many respects.
Fairly or unfairly, Alix has the reputation of having been more of a "challenge" all her life - that she faced every new event "horns in" (as the Germans say.) For example, as much as she loved her brother and home, it couldn't have been a surprise that Ernie would marry, and, inevitably, his wife would be the new "First Lady," the new "Landesmutter" - a function Alix had filled in the absence of Alice and after Ernie's ascension to reigning Grand Duke.
While it is true that it was also not a surprise that Alix and Ducky were not simpatico, it's also true that many felt that Alix did not take the marriage of her brother and her displacement as the preeminent woman in his life and in Hesse with particularly good grace. (Of course, plenty of letters exist that say otherwise, that Alix was very gracious and tactful, but then royal correspondence is often as full of diplomatic dodges as the letters of other people; witness how many letters of the Crown Princess of Prussia went on and on to her mother Queen Victoria about how wonderful her mother-in-law was to her, even while admitting - and tacitly illuminating - how Auguste was enormously demanding and difficult.)
It just seems to me that change was always difficult for Alix, and she resisted it all her life. It could well be that this was reflexive, unconscious. I do not meant that she consciously set out to be contrary.
Though her sons weren't 'important' as you say (since they had 6 healthy male cousins ahead of them) I think it's interesting that Waldemar actually survived until 1945 and if not for the Soviet invasion of Germany probably would've lived longer. Maybe the lack of pressure helped Irene to maintain a calmer environment.
I agree - the environments of Iréne and Alix in their marital lives were completely different. While the Prussian Court was hidebound and very traditional (especially since Willy gloried in such things and wanted every bit of etiquette observed to the letter, if not always the spirit, of the "law") all eyes were on Alix in the Russian Court. It must be said that Alix had precious little period of transition, and was almost "set up" to fail in many respects.
Alix made the dizzying transformation from a rather insignificant (but well-connected ;) ) princess from a petty German principality to Russian Orthodox convert, bride, wife, reigning Empress Consort and, theoretically, "Matushka" in a matter of weeks. And that's just a recitation of facts and doesn't allow for the emotionalism of leaving home and all she knew for a new life in all respects - home, husband, religion, language, customs, social life, demands, pressures, usw. This wild change will also fraught with even more emotionalism as it came while her future father-in-law (who, with his wife, had opposed her candidacy as bride for their son and heir) was dying. I think the fact of Alexander III being fatally ill would have made such a transition difficult under the best of circumstances, that there was all that "history" (to include Nicholas II's not being well-prepared for the Throne) had to just heighten an already overloaded situation.
(Et maintenant à la Partie Deux ;))
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Êtes-vous encore avec moi ? Et maintenant à la partie deux... ;)
In contrast, Iréne's experience was much calmer and happier. Though I believe Henry and Iréne largely came to their "agreement" on their own, years before, when both were children, a match had been discussed between their mothers. Oddly enough, the impetus was because Vicky and Alice (each who bemoaned her own looks and declared her sister much prettier) considered Henry and Iréne to be "ugly." (Queen Victoria and her family were rather harsh in their judgement of the looks of themselves and their nearest-and-dearest. ;) ) Vicky was also especially keen to secure Ella, who was attracting attention for her beauty and kind nature even as a young girl, for Willy (who was just as keen.) Not surprisingly, neither Ella nor her mother was enthusiastic about Willy as a spouse for Ella, though both were at pains to offend neither Willy nor Aunt Vicky.
But Vicky was delighted with the idea of Iréne as a daughter-in-law. She always took in interest in her late sister's children, and Vicky had also been often deliberately hurt by Willy and Dona, Ditta and Bernard, all of whom she had helped in their matrimonial "causes." As has been discussed here, Vicky had great hopes that Iréne and marriage would be a "calming influence" on Henry.
BTW, I did, of course, mean that Iréne's sons were not as "important" as Alexei in the manner that Alexei was the sole son of the sovereign, while Iréne's sons were junior in precedence to his father (Henry) and the six healthy sons of the Kaiser, not meaning in any way that they were less loved by their parents!
I think she was a good Lutheran and it's a much more straightforward religion than Catholicism (my religion) or Orthodoxy in terms of mysticism and the frou-frou aspects (for want of a better word!).
Agreed. I believe that Iréne, alone amongst the Hessian princesses of her immediate family, retained the Lutheran - Evangelische - religion of her childhood. I believe that Victoria Milford Haven became, for all intents and purposes, an Anglican by her later years, and Ella and Alix, of course, converted to Russian Orthodoxy. Naturally, Ernie remained Evangelisch.
Luther's approach can basically be summed up with the motto (much beloved of Lutherans) of "Sola Fide! Sola Gratia! Sola Scriptura!" (The other two "solas" coined by Luther as "die Schlagwörter von die Reformation” are "Solus Christus!" and "Soli Deo Gloria!")
As part of the process of preparation for Confirmation, Iréne would have been obliged to memorize and understand Luther's Catechism, which places much emphasis on "Denn haus Gnade seid ihr selig geworden durch Glauben, und idas nicht aus euch: Gottes Gabe ist es, nicht aus Werken, damit sich nicht jemand rühme." (Der Brief Des Paulus An Die Epheser, 2:8-9.) This fundamental “Lehre der Rechtfertigung” is a cornerstone of the Lutheran (Evangelischer) faith and one of the contrasts which differentiates them from Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
As is well-known, Alix agonized over changing her faith. The language of conversion could not have helped, as it demands the convert renounce his or her former beliefs in extremely strong language that, while religiously understandable, would still sound (and feel) harsh. It appears that all the Hessian princesses took the faith of their childhood very seriously, and did not view Confirmation as perhaps other princesses of their time might have, which was more of a pro forma rite de passage marking their “coming out” and eligibility to be considered for marriage. (Some royal parents left their marriageable daughters unconfirmed that there might be fewer religious issues in regards to future marriages. This did not so much apply to Catholics, who were always expected to marry other Catholics, or the Orthodox, but to Protestants, who could marry other Protestants or Orthodox.)
Once Alix converted, she embraced Orthodoxy with every ounce of her fervent nature, and it can be argued that Orthodoxy, with its devotion to saints, the Theodokos, belief in intercession and good works (all similar, but not exact, to Roman Catholicism, which has its own history of bitter diversion as that which separates the Catholics and the Protestants) was a better “fit” for Alix’s mystical nature than the more staid Lutheranism of her youth.
If you can believe it, there's still more... et maintenant à la partie trois... ;)
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Êtes-vous encore avec moi ? Et maintenant à la partie trois... ;)
Grand Duchess Ella wrote:
I don't think she was of religiously inquiring mind.
Again, I agree. While I do think all the Hessian princesses (speaking of Victoria, Ella, Iréne and Alix) were all sincerely religious (in their different ways) I have the impression that Ella and Alix shared the intense, questioning, even restless and agonizing, nature of their late mother. While Victoria and Iréne appear to have been more like their father, who seems to have felt that his faith, while deep and sincere, to be more of a natural state that didn't require a lot of soul-searching, research and examination. (Victoria MH loved to learn, and read on a wide variety of topics, and while open to other ideas never appears to have had the same issues as Alice, Ella and Alix.) Ludwig's (Louis) simple faith and Alice's religious quest led to some friction, as Alice's letters express dismay that this difference didn't allow her to share her quest with Ludwig. Magnanimously, Alice blamed herself for this, for wanting Ludwig to be something he couldn't be, though she was frustrated by being able to share her intellectual (and emotional) interests with him nonetheless.
Sad that she'd suffer the loss of a son to hemophilia--I wonder at Alix's reaction to that? It would've come before Alexei's birth--I wonder how much that weighed on her and if her reaction would've been different if she'd already had a hemophiliac son? I don't imagine for an instant she wasn't sympathetic but that it would've had an entirely different frame of reference after Alexei.
Alix was not yet one when her hemophiliac brother Frittie died in May 1873, and while she wouldn’t have remembered that (though Iréne, who was almost seven, would have), it would not be surprising if she heard of the tragedy from her older siblings and Queen Victoria. It was said that Alice was never the same after the death of this child, and certainly, she fell into a deep depression, joining her sister Vicky in what would now be considered mourning for a lost child on an almost morbid and unhealthy level. Alix would have remembered the deaths of her mother and little sister May; in fact, many of Alix’s biographers trace certain aspects of her personality and problems to these events.
From their childhood, Iréne and Alix would have been aware of the problems of hemophiliacs. Without doubt, they knew their maternal Uncle Leopold, who died shortly before Alix was twelve and Iréne was eighteen. The deaths of infants and children was not unknown in their world – Queen Victoria had been very lucky in that all of her nine children survived to adulthood (though several of them would suffer the tragedy of the deaths of infants and children.) I would imagine, like you, that Alix would have been very sympathetic to Iréne’s loss, while I don’t know if it ever occurred to Alix that she might also be a carrier and she could suffer the same terrible misfortune. After the birth of her own son and the discovery of his hemophilia, Alix must have been burdened by the spectre of the premature deaths of her brother, nephew and uncle. Alix also had the additional burden of Alexei being her sole son, born after four girls and difficult pregnancies which, it could be argued, took a toll on both her physical and emotional health, while Iréne still had two sons who thrived.
Since the birth of Alexei (and the discovery of his hemophilia) followed the death of Iréne's son Henry by less than a year (about seven months or so) the knowledge that premature death was entirely possible must have been fresh in Alix’s mind and horrified her. It had been twenty years since Leopold had died, but there had been no significant innovations or improvements in the treatment of hemophilia. It remained to isolate the hemophiliac from injury, treat outbreaks with compression, and painkillers (whose addictive nature usually caused most to forbear their use except in extreme circumstances.) Alix had already many problems with her life in Russia, and felt isolated, misunderstood and in some manners, even persecuted.
Some of this was real, some her perceptions. The care of a hemophiliac child in that time would be trying for any loving mother, but, for all that Alix had the blessings of a loving husband, four healthy daughters and economic plenty, she was also at the end of her emotional tether. Already having mystical leanings, Alix suffered from her belief that she could not be at once the instrument of her son’s illness (as a carrier) as well as his deliverance, which left her susceptible to faith healers and quacks in her desperation to find at best a cure, or even relief, for her son.
That Iréne intimately understood the trials and strains of a hemophiliac son drew the sisters together, though I can’t say for certain to what extent. Iréne’s son died as a toddler shortly after his fourth birthday. He was also not Iréne’s only son or heir. Alix also, increasingly, began to block off people when she disagreed with them, even when these people were those who had been closest to her – as she would do with Ella. Given that Iréne remained a Lutheran (with its disdain – especially of the time – of the theology and beliefs of other religions) and Alix delved deeper and deeper into more mystical aspects and allowances of Orthodoxy in her desperation, Iréne very well may have come into conflict with Alix’s choices. Iréne was known as being very amiable, even placid and accommodating, but I don’t know if this would extend to her remaining silent if she strongly disagreed with the course her sister was taking and where it was leading her, and by extension, her family and even her country. Unlike Ella, Iréne was not “local,” and, as a Prussian and sister-in-law of the bombastic Kaiser, would have increasingly been seen by the Russian Court as an “enemy,” even that she was the Tsarina’s sister. Certainly after 1914, it would have been difficult for Iréne and Alix to visit one another (I could be wrong, and they may have, but I believe that most communication during that time went through Victoria MH and neutral agents.)
Undeniably, hemophilia was a tragedy for both Iréne and Alix, though it can be argued that for Iréne, it was more of a personal, family tragedy, while for Alix, it was a tragedy which would have more far-ranging consequences (though Alix would bear some responsibility for this, in the way of responsibility for her response to it.)
[glb]Enfin fini[/glb]. :)
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That must have made Alix even more worried about Alexei, having seen her sister lose her little boy the same year Alexei was finally born had to be a constant warning and reminder. I'm sure that made her even more in fear, having seen that. Poor Alix, she worried herself sick.
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It appears that a special concession was made to make the transition from Lutheranism into Orthodoxy easier for Alix. In "A Lifelong Passion," there is a letter from Nicholas to Alix saying: "Of course I told them (Alexander III and Marie F.) all what you wanted me to say and they gave in at once and said you would not have to (renounce) the old belief, but that it would be like with Ella. You don't know my darling how happy I felt that they understood your reason and that they consented at once; I am only too glad to be the first one who may comfort you by that. (23 April 1894)
The act of renouncing her Lutheranism, which she had promised to follow at her Confirmation, may have been the main problem for her, rather than theological issues.
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Glucklichcheres... wow, you're very knowledgeable and interesting.
My only point of disagreement would be that I think that Victoria's faith took a lot more twists and turns than you might imagine. She questioned a great deal in her youth, and when she got older, I believe she also went through a period of being agnostic.
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Glucklicheres (that really is such a long name and very hard to spell!), that is a very interesting analysis.
I have to agree with Ilana about Victoria. I don't think that organised religion played too great a part in her philososphy at the end of her life, although I am sure that she observed the proprieties.
May I ask why you feel the need for anonymity? We are all friends here, all eager to learn and exchange views and ideas. Please continue to share your thoughts with us and dispense with the anonymity!
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OH yeah, or anything about a confirmation photo being taken. Has anyone seen Irene's confirmation picture?
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I have read alot about Aexandra's sisters on this site , but nothing much on Irene. What happened with her after the war ? How did she deal with her remaining brother and sister ? How did she deal with the end of her family ? What info do people have. please share F.
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To this day though, it remains a mystery why Irene made her granddaughter Barbara the heiress to Hemmelmarck, and not her grandson Alfred.
Arturo Beéche
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To this day though, it remains a mystery why Irene made her granddaughter Barbara the heiress to Hemmelmarck, and not her grandson Alfred.
Arturo Beéche
Could it be because Alfred intended to live on in Costa Rica whereas Barbara may have been more inclined to live in Germany having married a German? You'd think that she'd want someone who would actually reside at Hemmelmarck which she loved so much to be the heir (or heiress) to it.
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Alfred's opinion was never asked on this matter. The result was conflict between the siblings that lasted decades.
Arturo Beéche
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Elisa, I dont know if this helps ,but I found a Duchess Donata of Mecklenburg- Solodkoff and her family living on the Hemmelmark estate in Eckernforde. She is one of two last remaining members of the Mecklenburg-Schwerin family. Both female so the line ends with them. I also found that some of Irenes out buildings are now private homes that can be rented for vacation. One was a school that they started on the estate. Henry died at Hemmelmark 4/20/29, and Irene 11/11/53 also there. They may be buried at Hemmelmark. F.
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Elisa, Glad that helped alitltle. Was there any info on the Mecklenburgs ? And are they the same family as Marie Pavlovna Sr. ? F.
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Yes, they are part of the Mecklenberg-Schwerin line that included through birth or marriage:
Miechen
GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (married to Miechen's brother)
Prince Henry of the Netherlands (Miechen's 1/2 brother married to Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands)
Crown Princess Cecile of Germany (Miechen's niece)
Queen Alexandrine of Denmark (Miechen's niece)
Princess Anna of Hesse (I think she was one of Miechen's father's 3 wives but would need to check the Anna Hesse thread)
They are a separate branch from the Mecklenberg-Strelitzes that Queen Mary's aunt Augusta married into. Both lines are extinct in the male lines though.
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Elisa, I dont know if this helps ,but I found a Duchess Donata of Mecklenburg- Solodkoff and her family living on the Hemmelmark estate in Eckernforde. She is one of two last remaining members of the Mecklenburg-Schwerin family. Both female so the line ends with them. I also found that some of Irenes out buildings are now private homes that can be rented for vacation. One was a school that they started on the estate. Henry died at Hemmelmark 4/20/29, and Irene 11/11/53 also there. They may be buried at Hemmelmark. F.
There are THREE female-line Mecklenburg-Schwerins alive today: Donata, edwina and their elderly cousin Woislawa, who is widowed from a Prince Reuß.
As of last contact earliert his year, Woislawa is still quite alive and kicking! :-)
Arturo Beéche
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Yes, they are part of the Mecklenberg-Schwerin line that included through birth or marriage:
Miechen
GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (married to Miechen's brother)
Prince Henry of the Netherlands (Miechen's 1/2 brother married to Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands)
Crown Princess Cecile of Germany (Miechen's niece)
Queen Alexandrine of Denmark (Miechen's niece)
Princess Anna of Hesse (I think she was one of Miechen's father's 3 wives but would need to check the Anna Hesse thread)
They are a separate branch from the Mecklenberg-Strelitzes that Queen Mary's aunt Augusta married into. Both lines are extinct in the male lines though.
In the early 1930's the last Grand Duke of Meclenburg-Schwerin and the heir of Mecklenburg-Strelitz agreed on the retro-demorganatization of the Count of Carlow, whose father was a Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, whose branch had settled in Russia (for further information on this you can read about them in THE GRAND DUCHESSES, pp. 33-44).
The fomer Count of Carlow, then Duke Georg of Mecklenburg, married none other than Archduchess Charlotte of Austria, the second daughetr of Emperor Karl of Austria. Georg Mecklenburg's first marriage to Irina Raievskaya produced several children, among therm Duke Alexander of Mecklenburg (1921-1996), who was married to Archduchess Ilona of Austria (b. 1927) - a great-great-granddaughter of Emperor Franz Joseph. Georg and Ilona had four children, among them a boy named Georg-Borwin, who is the present "head" of the Mecklenburg(-Strelitz) line.
Arturo Beéche
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Elisa, I dont know if this helps ,but I found a Duchess Donata of Mecklenburg- Solodkoff and her family living on the Hemmelmark estate in Eckernforde. She is one of two last remaining members of the Mecklenburg-Schwerin family. Both female so the line ends with them. I also found that some of Irenes out buildings are now private homes that can be rented for vacation. One was a school that they started on the estate. Henry died at Hemmelmark 4/20/29, and Irene 11/11/53 also there. They may be buried at Hemmelmark. F.
The main house at Hemmelmarck was sold years ago to a wealthy german businessman. Donata and Edwina Mecklenburg-Schwerin retain property in Hemmelmarck, wehere Donata continues to reside part of the year. Prince Heinrich and Princess Irene of Prussia are buried at the family mausoleum located at the hemmelmacrk estate.
Arturo Beéche
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Thanks so much Elisa for allowing us to see this pictures you found! I have been searching this morning and afternoon for burial information on Henry and Irene, but I wasn't at all successful as you have been!
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At last, a few views of the mausoleum at Hemmelmark!!!
http://www.ur-bild.de/NewFiles/galerie/huenengraeber/orte.html/hemmelmark.html
The style of the building reminds me very slightly of that of the Neues Mausoleum at the Rosenhöhe, the shapes of the roof, etc.
I would say that both mausoleums resemble each other greatly.
Arturo Beéche
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E. So the family of the Count of Carlow are now the head of both branches of the Mecklenburg family ? And do you know if Donata lives in the main house at Hemmelmark or another ? Or not there at all. The story of Carlow is very unique, or have you heard of this happening before. F.
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E. So the family of the Count of Carlow are now the head of both branches of the Mecklenburg family ? And do you know if Donata lives in the main house at Hemmelmark or another ? Or not there at all. The story of Carlow is very unique, or have you heard of this happening before. F.
The von Carlows are not the head of either family. This was a morganatic line, and not recognized as heirs to the Strelitz line. Both houses are now considered extinct in the male line. About a decade ago, a small book on the carlows was published in Strelitz.
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I have read alot about Aexandra's sisters on this site , but nothing much on Irene. What happened with her after the war ? How did she deal with her remaining brother and sister ? How did she deal with the end of her family ? What info do people have. please share F.
You will find some information about Irene in my book, Queen Victoria's descendants. In the last week or so, while browing through the digital Washington Post, I came across a profile of Irene from the early 1900s.
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M. I was responding to something Eurohistory said ,on I think 12/7/04 I have no history on this, just very interested. On the future of these famlilies. F.
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I will have to pull your book out this evening Marlene and read it again! Very interesting and excellent pictures. Is there any new information on Irene or her descendants in the companion edition you recently released?
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What was the Retro-Demorganatiztion of the Von Carlows in the 1930's ? Just need to be iformed. F.
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Marlene, What book have you written ? F.
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What was the Retro-Demorganatiztion of the Von Carlows in the 1930's ? Just need to be iformed. F.
No such thing happened -- the family is not even listed in the Handbuch des Adels (from Starke).
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In the early 1930's the last Grand Duke of Meclenburg-Schwerin and the heir of Mecklenburg-Strelitz agreed on the retro-demorganatization of the Count of Carlow, whose father was a Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, whose branch had settled in Russia
Am suspicious of this"retro" because the editors at Starke certainly do not recognize it - and the Schwerin branch has never been on record about it -- and the German families themselves do seem to acknowledge Borwin as he is not a part of the royal scene.
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Marlene, What book have you written ? F.
Queen Victoria's Descendants -editions in 1987, 1997 and 2004. I also write for Majesty and other publications. I recently published A Grand Alliance about Grand Duke Michael and Sophie Merenberg and their descendants -
and since 1983, I have published Royal Book News, the only newsletter for and about royal books.
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The von Carlows are not the head of either family. This was a morganatic line, and not recognized as heirs to the Strelitz line. Both houses are now considered extinct in the male line. About a decade ago, a small book on the carlows was published in Strelitz.
There is a book on The Carlows (and their palace in Saint-Petersburg) in Russian,published in 1990s. I had got it - very informative.
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I have heard of this book but have been unable to find it. Maybe this coming year when I make it to Russia I'll be able to retrieve a copy.
As for the Carlows' position: Count George von carlow was adopted by his uncle Karl Michael of Mecklenburg-Strelitz in 1928, a decision confirmed by the tribunals a month after signature. He was thus authorized to carry for himself and his descendants the title of "Duke of Mecklenburg, Count von Carlow, with the qualification of Serene Highness." This decision was confirmed and recognized by Grand Duke Friedrich Franz IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin on 12/23/1929. In 1950 the title of "Highness" was recognized for the Mecklenburg/Carlow line by Hereditary Grand Duke Friedrich Franz (V) of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.
Arturo Beéche
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Art - this decision did not effect the succession - the adoption was more for protection of the estates -- Some years ago, I had a conversation with Christian Ludwig and his older brother (whose own marriage was morganatic), and one of the topics we discussed was the Strelitz line - and both emphasized that the von Carlow line was not eligible for the succession. They did not recognize Borwin as the head of that house, nor did they recognize him as the eventual schwerin successor.
As for the Carlows' position: Count George von carlow was adopted by his uncle Karl Michael of Mecklenburg-Strelitz in 1928, a decision confirmed by the tribunals a month after signature. He was thus authorized to carry for himself and his descendants the title of "Duke of Mecklenburg, Count von Carlow, with the qualification of Serene Highness." This decision was confirmed and recognized by Grand Duke Friedrich Franz IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin on 12/23/1929. In 1950 the title of "Highness" was recognized for the Mecklenburg/Carlow line by Hereditary Grand Duke Friedrich Franz (V) of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.
Arturo Beéche[/quote]
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There is a difference between "head" and HEAD. I know there was never a formal agreement between both branches that oversaw a firm succession. I do accept Borwin as the senior Mecklenburg male, not just a Carlow, but without a solid dynastic role. A pity really, since they should have done something about this before Kiki and FF's deaths.
The GHdA willmost likely never recognize any retrodemorganatizations, not their thing really...as they tend to be extremely unbending. I doubt very much they would accept, for example the private succession decisions taken by the former ruling families in Anhalt and Saxony, nor did they accept some people as dynasts in the case of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. It would be interesting to find out though what their position is regarding the retrodemorganatizations which took place in the Hous eof bavaria a few years ago.
There are good relations between Borwin mecklenburg and Donata and Edwina Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ediwna being the godmother of Borwin's eldest child for example.
Arturo Beéche
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On this note, Arturo, just WHO determines these things at GHdA ? Who comprises their editorial board in other words ? Is it a top secret like Who's Who's?
Best,
Robert
btw- London is wonderful, as usual.
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It is commonly assumed by many that Starke Verlag are the ones responsible for these decisions, but they are not. "We are just a printing house," said Christina, the owner, to me a few years ago.
These decisions are made by the board of the German nobility association, which in many cases has faced lawsuits for not publshing decisions internally made by some of the families, as in the case of the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
Arturo Beéche
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The GHdA has accepted the Bavarians ... but it took years for Friedrich Josias to get the editors to accept Andreas' marriage ... I've got correspondence with FJ from more than 20 years ago about the situation ...
Anhalt is a special case, but I think they will accept the decision in Saxony. I will be surprised if they don't.
The GHdA willmost likely never recognize any retrodemorganatizations, not their thing really...as they tend to be extremely unbending. I doubt very much they would accept, for example the private succession decisions taken by the former ruling families in Anhalt and Saxony, nor did they accept some people as dynasts in the case of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. It would be interesting to find out though what their position is regarding the retrodemorganatizations which took place in the Hous eof bavaria a few years ago.
There are good relations between Borwin mecklenburg and Donata and Edwina Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ediwna being the godmother of Borwin's eldest child for example.
Arturo Beéche[/quote]
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There are good relations between Borwin mecklenburg and Donata and Edwina Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ediwna being the godmother of Borwin's eldest child for example.
I believe Donata is a godmother of Michael as she is in the official photo for the christening ... (I have articles from German magazines from both christenings.)
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Two of my favorite photos! The top one of Henry, I think he looks so handsome and there aren't too many of him in manhood before he grew his beard. You really get a sense of how light his hair was. The one of him and Irene was the first card I ever got of the two of them together and one of the first royal images I ever saw period when I read Hessian Tapestry those many moons ago. :)
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Yes, I love that image of Henry and Irene; there is something very tender about it.
'Hessian Tapestry' is a wonderful piece of writing and has a lovely quality to it. I am consatntly picking it up to look at some thing and find myself rereading great chunks of it before I know where I am; I suppose that must be the mark of a good book - either that or I am becoming increasingly absent-minded!
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That's one of my all-time favorites. Back before you could just order books from used bookstores online, I drag my hubby (back when he was just my boyfriend even) through countless UBS everywhere we went looking for it. He was SO glad when I eventually ordered it online. :)
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Yes it has to be said that there has been a revolution in the way that we can obtain rare and out-of-print books. I'm not sure that my partner is too keen on the steady flow of literary acquisitions!
Plus now we can all see these wonderful images that people (particularly you GDElla, and not everyone is as generous with their images and information as you) are kind enough to share with us all.
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Ella - HT is one of my fav books, too, and was delighted to be able to add it my library. I got a Christmas card from David Duff and his wife yesterday --- actually from his wife as David is not well.
That's one of my all-time favorites. Back before you could just order books from used bookstores online, I drag my hubby (back when he was just my boyfriend even) through countless UBS everywhere we went looking for it. He was SO glad when I eventually ordered it online. :)[/quote]
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Here are some more pictures of Irene
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/Letitia-Jane/Princess%20Irene%20of%20Prussia/Princess20Irene20Prussia2C20born20Hesse.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/Letitia-Jane/Princess%20Irene%20of%20Prussia/PRUSSIA20Prss20Irene.jpg)
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Dearest Princess Alicky! :D
I love that last picture of Irene! I have seen some from that sitting, but never that one before! I love the relaxed, content expression on her face. She looks so lovely! Thank you for posting it!
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Perhaps Prince Henry was probably the second closest relative of Queen Victoria to visit the United States. He came to call at the White House of Theodore Roosevelt on February 24, 1902.
He was in the U.S. to pick up the American built yacht, "Meteor" purchased by his brother the Kaiser.
There was a social issue that was a problem. It seems that there was no one in Washington of high enough rank to officially introduce Prince Henry to the President.
This was the solution. The Prince was ushered into the Green Room by an aide. At the same moment the President entered the Blue Room. Prince Henry then immediately went into the Blue Room and they introduced themselves to each other. Later that same day, the President returned the call on the Prince at the German Embassy.
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The state dinner at the White House of Prince Henry of Prussia is said to have been like "eating in a Christmas tree."
The dinner was stag, attended by important men from State, Navy, and War departments, and held in the East Room because the State Dining Room was smaller then than it is now. (TR expanded it later.)
Because the Prince had a nautical background, there were seafaring symobls in the form of stars, ropes, and anchors made of hundreds and hundreds of electric lights hanging from the ceiling, mirrors, and pillars in the room. The menu was adorned with the German and American eagles, flags, and the "Meteor."
Alice Roosevelt christened the "Meteor" in Jersey City the next day.
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Dennis, thank you for the interesting information re: Prince Henry and the Roosevelts! I love the way the meeting between President Roosevelt and the prince was resolved.
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Very interesting about Henry meeting TR. Were there polictical discussions during this visit? Did Henry ever suggest that TR meet Wilhelm and invite him to Germany? Are there pics of this meeting and state dinner?
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In the later editions of "The White House: An Historic Guide" there is a colorized stereoscopic view. The makers of the "artisque coleur" stereograph are the ones who said: "It must have seemed to the German prince very much like a dinner in a Christmas tree..."
(1995 Edition, pages 142-143)
In a much older book "The White House and its Thirty-three Families" by Amy La Follette Jensen (1958, 1962) there is an actual illustration of the dinner itself with the President leading a toast to Prince Henry. (Page 184) There is also a picture of the mutual introduction in the Blue Room.
In Nathan Miller's "Theodore Roosevelt: A Life" (1992) there is this description of German-American relations.
"Keenly aware of the unpopularity of his nation in the United States Wilhelm tried to ingratitate himself with the American people and the president. He struck a medal in Roosevelt's honor...sent his brother, Prince Henry, to visit, had a yacht built in an American shipyard, and presented a bronze statue of Frederick the Great to the United States. In view of what was seen as the kaiser's meancing designs upon the Western Hemisphere, some observers suggested that the United States might reciptrocate the gfit with a statue of James Monroe."
"Wilhelm openly admired Roosevelt, but the president had mixed feelings about the German ruler. 'I wish to Heaven our excellent friend, the Kaiser, was not so jumpy and did not have so many pipe dreams,' he once told William Howard Taft." (pages 388-9)
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What were their children's names? I know they had three and did they live to be very old?
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They had three sons, Waldemar, known as Toddy, Sigismund, known as Bobby and Heinrich.
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Waldemar Wilhelm Ludwig Friedrich Viktor Heinrich 1889-1945
Waldemar was hemophiliac but he lived to be almost 60 years old--the longest-lived royal hemophiliac. He died from a lack of blood transfusions while fleeing ahead of the Soviets at the end of WW2. He married but had no children.
Wilhelm Viktor Karl August HeinrichSigismund 1896-1978
Sigismund was the only one of Henry & Irene's children to have children--a boy and a girl.
Heinrich Viktor Ludwig Friedrich 1900-1904
The 2nd of the 2 hemophiliac sons of Irene, he died at a tragically young age from a fall of a chair or table, I think.
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Hello, does anybody have a photo of Heinrich the yougest son, as I have never seen him.
Thanks
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Irene always seems like the 'lost' child in that family. (Middle-child syndrome?) There are conflicting views of Henry from what I've read; in some sources they seem v. happy together & in others she has a lot to put up with! I feel she must have had a terrible time at the end of the war...being on the 'wrong' side & having to flee so dramatically during the German revoltuion & at the same time discovering that her sisters had been killed. Is this discussed elsewhere?
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I think they were pretty happy together. She had a calm, placid temperament that probably meshed well with his apparent ill-temper. It was definitely a love-match and both incurred the ill-will of QV over it. She called Irene 'naughty' for breaking her word not to become engaged to Henry and Henry meanwhile had risked the wrath of those in Berlin by attending his aunt Beatrice's wedding to Prince Henry of Battenberg. (The Hohenzollerns didn't regard the Battenbergs as sufficiently royal.) I've read he may have engaged in at least flirtations--don't know if anything went beyond that--but they still seemed content. Vicky noted how 'happy and content' they were at their home in Kiel in the first decade of their marriage that she was alive for.
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Yes, I think they seem pretty happy...perhaps because oftheir complimentary natures & I do admire Henry for going to Beatrice's wedding.
Having read the account of how how Victoria (Battenberg) responded so stoically & courageously to the news of the death of the IF & Ella, I wondered if anyone knows how the news was broken to Irene. At the time that Ella's bodywas being found, she would have been fleeing from Kiel & the revolution. I presume it must, therefore, have taken some time for her to hear of all that had happened. Was she involved in the Kaiser's attempts to encourage Ella to leave Russia & had she played any part in encouraging the Kaiser to offer the IF refuge in Germany? (I admire Willie for his part in this.)
I think one of the saddest things is that she was fleeing with a red flag tied to her car at the same time as the Bolsheviks were killing her sisters. (Not blaming her for it...just wondering how she felt about it later.)
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Irene's son, Prince Sigimund was an amazing person, one fo the nicest people I have ever come in contact with.
Arturo Beéche
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Oh please :) tell us more, Arturo!! (Do you know EVERYONE :))!!
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Heavens no...I do not know every royal.. :)
Prince Sigimund of Prussia relocated to Costa Rica after living for a few years with his family in Guatemala. He had migrated to Central America with the hope of finding a better life, since after all he was completely disillusioned with the Weimar Republic and the debacle Germany had fallen into.
Life in Guatemala, not surprisingly, was not a bed of roses for them and soon enough he sought to escape that country's political instability and replace it with the quiet and security provided by Costa Rica.
When Sigismund and family landed in Costa Rica, my great-grandfather (who died in 1982, when I was 17) was the Governor of our State, while his uncle was the Minister of Foreign Affairs (he had also served at various Costa Rica Legations around Europe for more than 25 years). Both, my great-grandfather and his uncle made it possible for Prince Sigiumund to have an easier settlement in Costa Rica. My family were among the first exporters of coffee, a business which was started in the early 1850's, and they were also involved in other agri-businesses. Great-grandfather rafael and Prince Sigismund became very good friends - a friendship that was transferred to their descendants.
My grandmother and Princess Charlotte-Agnes, Sigismund's wife, were also very good friends. Princess Ch-A had beehives and sold bottled honey to people in town - most of whom were quite happy to pay her whatever she wanted to help them out. Grandmother would drive up to their finca with boxes filed with empty bottles so Princess Ch-A could use them for her budding business. And on many, many, of these trips I came along to to visit. While the ladies talked shop, I sat many an afternoon with Prince Sigismund who loved rocking his rocking chair, which he had in the house's front verandah. He always lent books to me on royal subjects, he would tell me wonderful stories and reminisce about it all. In fact, he was the one who first mentioned to me the Anderson saga!
I was almost 14 when he passed away. For about the last two years of his life it was not possible for me to see him. I saw his son Prince Alfred often, for Alfred's office was around the corner from my family's business and don Alfredo and my father were in the same line of business, shipping.
When Prince Sigismund died I was away from Costa Rica. It was sad for us, we were all his friends. It was sad to see how devastated Princess Ch-A was after his death. One funny story though, "after his passing Ch-A had to go to the local bank and open an account. The bank officer helped her with great delicacy until it came to her name. She asked that the account be openned under her full name HRH Princess Charlotte-Agnes of Saxe-Altenburg, Princess Sigismund of Prussia. when the bank officer told her that would not be possible because the name was too long, she threw a fit and told my grandmother...even here in Costa Rica communists want to take my name away!" Needless to say she was calmed down and shown that there just would not be enough space on the checks for such a long name...but I think she always looked at the bank officer with a great degree of suspicioni!
They are both buried in Esparza, a small town near their former farm. I visit their gravesite at least once a year since it is on the way to our beach house and I promised Prince Alfred that as long as I was alive, their graves would not be forgotten or allowed to fall in disrepair. Don Alfredo and I have visited the graves together and I know that his nieces have friends in Costa Rica who also bring them flowers on special days.
That is how my interest in royalty began...
Arturo Beéche
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Oh Arturo, thank you for posting that! It's absolutely lovely...you picture an almost idyllic existence...the honey bees & the Prince rocking in his chair. (The story of the cheque is hilarious!) Thank you EVERSOMUCH for writing that :) :) :) :) :)
(One minor thing more to trouble you, if you don't mind...did he ever mention his aunt Ella?)
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A lovely story, and Sigismund and Charlotte Agnes were both adorable .. I corresponded with Charlotte Agnes until shortly before death. She reminded me of Infanta Maria Cristina of Spain - both liked to gossip about their family. Not too long ago, I won a pc on Ebay of a young Pss CA on a horse.
pss Alfred's wife was also a dear. We would meet for tea at her NY home, and one day, I left laden with gifts including a Hungarian blouse, and Hungarian made doilies ...which I still use.
But nothing tops the laptop computer that another descendant of QV gave me.
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Yes...Ella, OTMA and the entire bunch...painful memories for him!
Arturo
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Yes...Ella, OTMA and the entire bunch...painful memories for him!
Arturo
Was it to painful for him to talk to you of or did he tell you of painful memories?
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Arturo, I kiss the very hem of your garments in wonder! :D
(You have created so beautiful an image of a young boy sitting on a verandah, listening among the honey bees & coffee beans to an exiled prince recounting romantic stories of these wonderful relations....What a very very very very beautiful memory for you to have...I am in awe!)
I liked Prince Sigismund a lot, just as I truly like his son Alfred. His daughter, the late Princess Barbara was a nother sort of person, colder, more distant, less approachable.
Princess Ch-A was a funny lady, with a marvelous sense of humor and quite a bit of spunk...she was a doer, he was more diletantish, sort of like their son Alfred...always contented with what life brings to them.
Prince Alfred is like a grandfather to me. Every time I visit Costa Rica we spend time together, be at his house or my family's. He loves going out on my father's boat, not to fish, but to see people do it. Alfred is a marvelous people-watcher. When he came to visit me in the Bay Area four years ago, he stayed more than a week extra and kept asking me to change his departure, as he was having such a wonderful time. He convinced a friend of mine to take him walking across the Golden Gate, he asked another friend to take him to MacDonald's, "and don't tell Arturo, he hates fastfood and he'll be upset!," he told my friend.
And yes I have been extremely lucky to have grown with access to such dear, simple people who paid little attention to trappings and nonsense...they were a breath of fresh air. I always thought that spending so much time with Prince Sigismund was bothering him, but he loved telling stories and I was all ears, fascinated, enthralled, wanting to know more, and more and more...
Prince Alfred told me several years ago that he is leaving me his father's book collection and also gave mother and I instructions of what to do with his ashes and I intend to fulfill his wishes, God willing.
Arturo Beéche
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Was it to painful for him to talk to you of or did he tell you of painful memories?
I don't know...he was old, in his late seventies and wanted to tell stories...he always mentioned how beautiful the cousins were, how monstrous the Soviets had been...but I do not recall if he ever mentioned Ernst Ludwig other than saying that side of the fmaily was extinct.
I know I should sit down and write these thoughts...some times I recall some things and I write them, some times my memory fails to recall details...goodness the earliest recollection I have of him was in 1972 when they came to hospital to visit my mother who had been in a car accident and lost what would have been my only sister...after that I don't ever remember them coming to our home, Princess Ch-A did, Alfred as well, but Sigismund became more reclusive as he got older and stayed at the farm where we came to see him.
Arturo Beéche
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You really should Arturo (and you know you could get it published ;) ). It could be something like Theo Aronson's book Royal Subjects.
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Actually Theo himself told me I should start writing down these memories.
;D
I hope the group will forgive me for not posting the next few days but I will be giving three lectures on European royalty at the Smithsonian Institution in Washingotn DC this weekend.
Arturo Beéche
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This is kind of off the subject of the thread but if anyone is interested in hearing more of Arturo's stories and joining with a great group of people who have the same interests as we do, then come to the Eurohistory Conference in San Francisco that takes places every October. I've been for the past four years and wouldn't miss it for the world. (Hope you don't mind the advertisement, Arturo!)
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Oh to be in San Francisco then :) - How fortunate you are!
To return to Irene, has anyone ever seen - or does anyone possess - anything that she ever wrote. We see letters from Victoria, Ella, Ernie & Alix but I have never seen anything written by Irene, only letters about her.
I wonder if anyone knows of any letters that perhaps she might have written to Alix, offering her support with Alexei's haemophilia (being empathetic, of course)...perhaps Alix might have destroyed these letters when she destroyed so many others. But surely there must be some that she wrote to Queen Victoria along with Victoria's and Ella's? I should particular like to see what she wrote about her engagement because Ella's & Victoria's in the even of their engagements reveal as much about QV as they do about the writers themselves.
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I wish a book would be written on Irene herself, and maybe one called "Irene and Heinrich" like Hough's "Louis and Victoria" :)
I've only read one or two actual letters from Irene herself, one can be found in "Alix an Gretchen" (marvellous book!), from her to Fräulein von Fabrice, dated 1895 from Kiel, the other is an appendage on a letter from Princess Victoria to her brother Ernst Ludwig in 1920 "I know exactly where this church is located on the Mount of Olives... i want to paint a picture as you did during the war of 1916... "The love never ends". Also, i want to find a nice engraved icon in Russian style of Christ or Martha and Mary, and fasten it to a piece of wood, and on the other side write a dedication..."
Maybe you should write one, Elisa :) (I'd buy it!!)
Thank you for posting those extracts from the letters - I had never seen them before. Do you know if they were originally written in English, or are they translated? For some reason (perhaps because she married P. Henry) I always imagine Irene writing & speaking in German.
I DO hope someone else has others. I think you can never quite 'get into' their characters until you have read what they themselves have written.
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Thanks again, Elisa. Please keep posting if you come across any more. Even from those few extracts you do begin to get more of a sense of her, don't you? (I like the bit about the Russian-style Christ with Martha & Mary because it shows so clearly that she must have been thinking of Ella. 'The love never ends' part is very very sad, isn't it?)
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There are likely some in the royal archives and one was quoted in the book 'Darling Loosy' (letters to and from Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll) dealing with QV's death.
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I have seen letters from Irene to QV in the Royal Archives, and have some from Irene to VMH from Hemmelmark. Outside of that, I don't really know.
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Elisa, I know that you know a lot about Irene. (Please can you tell me how to pronounce her name - (I - as in big - wren?) Do you know much about Henry too? The more I read of him, the more conflicting the evidence becomes. Ponsonby seems to think him rather brainless & fluctuating...(a bit like his mother's early assessment of him? And how awful her descriptions of his ugliness - though we make allowance for Vicky, because she's Vicky!)...but other people describe him as quite astute and (M. Mallet) the 'best of the royalties.'
I know grandduchessella wrote of his 'flirtations' but also that he was faithful. All in all he seems a quite a 'good egg' but so overshadowed by his brother that we don't know (I mean I don't know) that much about him except that he loved ships & cars etc....which is why I'd like to know more. (Mainly about his character & his relationship with his children etc. etc. rather than his achievements.) :)
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Thanks Thomas! So is it a bit like EAREENE? :)
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So Princess Irene's name would've been pronounced "E-reen Loo-ees." Now that makes sense about how Alix's name sometimes appears as "Alice" instead! :)
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But didn't Princess Alice say she wouldn't call Alix 'Alice', because 'they murder' the name here....Maybe SHE called her daughter 'Alice' sometimes? :-/
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It was as close as Alice could get to naming her daughter after herself. A lot of English periodicals would refer to 'Princess Alice of Hesse' coming to visit her grandmother. I guess they considered her Alice even though in other places her name was just put as 'Princess Alix'.
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"...- ach! They were happy days in Darmstadt, when my sister was still at home - and these lovely memories no man can take from us..."
Thank you, Elisa :) (your translations are always lovely!)
That's a very poignant line isn't it? I often try to imagine how Irene & Ernie must have felt after the murder of the IF & Ella. Although it was terrible for Victoria too, for them it must have been even more difficult in a way as they had so recently been 'enemies.' It makes the war even more awful in that Alix was separated not only from her family but also from her beloved Darmstadt.
But yes, as Irene said, no one could take away their lovely memories.
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I think they were pretty happy together. She had a calm, placid temperament that probably meshed well with his apparent ill-temper. It was definitely a love-match and both incurred the ill-will of QV over it."
Much to my surprise, I came across an article from the Washington Post from 1902
A Royal Love Match. Sweet personality of Princess Irene wife of Prince Henry of Prussia. The date of the article is 1-26-1902 ..
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Miche-miche was called by the Dowager Empress Maria feodorovna a "swine" when he amrried beneath him. Had either Irene or Louise accepted she would have spared him the "nickname" ;D However, he was forced intoe xile due to his unequal marriage, which incidentally made him escape the Bolsheviks in Russia years later. I suppose that, had he stayed in Russia (should Irene, Louise or any other royal woman had become his spouse), he too would have been executed (and Irene, being Alexandra's sister, probably would have perished too-look at what happened to Ella!)
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Yes, perhaps they all had a lucky escape in the end.
If he was busy searching for a suitable princess and being rejected, what a pity he didn't notice Moretta who seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time searching for a suitable prince....
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I was reading Camera and the Tsars (GREAT book!) and in a photo of GD Michael Michaelovich it says that before he married Countess Torby, he "believed himself in love" and proposed to both Irene of Hesse and Louise of Wales (at separate times of course!) and was turned down by both. Does anyone have any more information on this? Was Irene's heart already set on Henry of Prussia and did Queen Alexandra have anything to do with Louise's refusal? Ihad never read any of this before.
Yes, he proposed to Irene and then Louise. He was very much into marrying, and even built a fab palace for he and his family ...which he never got to live in. Have done a bit of writing on Miche Miche lately - in A Grand Alliance, and more recently for Art Beeche's new book.
He also pursued May of Teck, as her grandmother the duchess of Cambridge was encouraging this match, but the duke of Teck thought that the Romanovs made horrible husbands.
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King George V complained to Nicholas II several times at having to receive Miche-Miche, and how he always howled about needing more money. As far as I can tell, though, he lived pretty well-Kenwood House on Hampstead Heath, where he lived-has a lot of records and documents related to his time there, and they show he certainly wasn't lacking funds!
Greg King
Until the Russian revolution, Michael had an immense amount of money. After the revolution, he lost everything. Sir Frederik Ponsonby, a friend of Michael's, wrote to George V, who lent Michael £10.000. Kenwood was given up - and they moved into a much smaller place on Cambridge Gate. Michael's younger daughter, Zia, replenished the coffers when she married Harold Wernher in 1917. He had inherited £11 million when his father died in 1912.
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He also pursued May of Teck, as her grandmother the duchess of Cambridge was encouraging this match, but the duke of Teck thought that the Romanovs made horrible husbands.
That's who else it was! I couldn't remember the name of the 3rd well-known princess. Thanks.
Ironic that May was often looked down upon because of her father's birth and yet she wa considered by a Russian Grand Duke.
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Until the Russian revolution, Michael had an immense amount of money. After the revolution, he lost everything. Sir Frederik Ponsonby, a friend of Michael's, wrote to George V, who lent Michael £10.000. Kenwood was given up - and they moved into a much smaller place on Cambridge Gate. Michael's younger daughter, Zia, replenished the coffers when she married Harold Wernher in 1917. He had inherited £11 million when his father died in 1912.
GD Ella,
Whose father died in 1912-Wernher or GD Miche-Miche?
Who is/was Axle Glen Warnher?
Miche-Miche was the brother or GD KR and GD Olga, Queen of Greece correct?
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GD Ella,
Whose father died in 1912-Wernher or GD Miche-Miche?
Who is/was Axle Glen Warnher?
Miche-Miche was the brother or GD KR and GD Olga, Queen of Greece correct?
You quoted from my post, TB .. not Ella ... Harold Wernher was the younger son of Sir Julius Wernher, BT, who died in 1912. The older son, Derrick inherited the baronetcy, and died unmarried in 1948, when Harold succeeded. Derrick had problems so Julius left the bulk of his fortune to his second son.
I have no idea who Axel Warnher is .. where did you get that. Zia's only son was Alex Wernher, who was killed in WWII, and who was a close friend of Prince Philip's.
No - Miche Miche was not a brother of Olga. He was Michael Mikhailovitch. His brothers included Nicholas, the historian, George (married to Marie of Greece) and Alexander married to Xenia.
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You quoted from my post, TB ..
I have no idea who Axel Warnher is .. where did you get that.
No - Miche Miche was not a brother of Olga. He was Michael Mikhailovitch. His brothers included Nicholas, the historian, George (married to Marie of Greece) and Alexander married to Xenia.
Marlene,
Sorry! Sorry! SorrY! Please forgive!-It was 7:16 AM Saturday morning!!! We can discuss who is more put out with me, you or Ella, at a later date.
I have got to go through my books and see where I got the the name Axle Glen Warnher. Mr. Axle was listed in some book I have as the founder and/or owner of Electrolux (which is a Swedish company if we are talking about the vacuum/aircraft company).
He is also identified as marrying some descendant of Royalty from a family down on their financial luck.
I think (I repeat-I Think!!! I always get into trouble when I think) I got this out of an Engineering bio book not a Royalty history/bio book.
Also, in the KR diaries from a "A Fatal Passion" he describes Miche-Miche as "the marrying kind" When he came into his money at 21 he began construction on a huge "palace" so "we would have a decent place to live". When ask who he planned to marry, Miche-Miche responded " I don't know yet."
Therefore, I am assuming KR must have known Miche-Miche well or maybe been close. Then again KR seems to have been close to and well liked by everyone.
TampaBay
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GDElla, I am so sorry to hear about your computer. I really hope that it will not affect your wonderful contributions to this Group longterm.
You know how much we all appreciate the information and images that you take the time and trouble to contribute; I am sure that I can speak for the rest of your friends on this Board when I say that we would all be happy to help in any way that we could - just say the word....... :)
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They looked like a very happy couple. I don't ever recall seeing a royal embracing his wife in such a sweet way...perhaps Nicky and Alix in private family photos, but this is a studio portrait.
(http://img49.echo.cx/img49/5218/henryandirene1880s4qi.jpg)
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That's one of my all-time favorites for the reason you gave--what an intimate shot. :) I knew they were a love match through QV's letters, etc.. but if you didn't that photo would tell you.
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Now I'm fascinated! This is one couple I know next to nothing about. Any bios available?
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There are 2 on Henry but both are in German. They focus more on his naval career and his interests in flying and automobiles though.
The best places to go are Hessian Tapestry by David Duff (which deals with the Hessian family from Princess Alice up to the 1970s when the book was written) and various bios on Irene's siblings like The Mountbattens by Richard Hough (mostly on Victoria & Louis Battenberg). They give you a pretty good idea but it's hard to really gather a complete picture.
There are a couple hints that Henry may have strayed at some point but it's not clear. He certainly seemed devoted to Irene though and the marriage was a clear love-match.
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Whoa! That is indeed a departure from the usual photo pose. Literally and figuratively, I am now looking at Henry and Irene in an entirely new light!
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Irene with Ella at Ilinskoe, 1908....................
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3653/ellaandireneilinskoe19089ef.jpg)
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...and in 1908 Ella was ill and had to undergo surgery.
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...and in 1908 Ella was ill and had to undergo surgery.
Really?!?!? I had never heard this before. What type of surgery?
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If I'am right,after, Reading C.C. book on the books section. It was a leg tumor.
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In 1908 she underwent surgery for the removal of a benign tumour.
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Thanks for the information on Ella's surgery. It does look a bit in the above pic that she is in a "house dress". Something loose-fitting as if she is recovering or resting at home, rather then the more fitted "formal" dress if her sister Irene. Perhaps this was the reason for Irene's visit...to check on her sister after surgery.
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Thanks for posting these, Blanche. The way in which Irene seems always to be either looking at or resting her hand on Henry, really does seem to show their closeness. There are pictures of other royal couples in similar poses, but they do not have quite the same sense of 'chemistry' as these do. It truly was a love-match, wasn't it? :D
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Why did Princess Irene had more children?
she had bore Her husband three sons- Waldemar (1889), Sigismund (1896) and Henry (1900).
Of Waldemar and Henry's illnesses. Is that it?
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Not sure what you're asking here. Why she did or didn't have more?
Irene had difficulties having children, so that's why she didn't have more than the three boys.
Sadly, oldest and youngest were hemophiliacs... Heinrich died at the age of 4 and Bobby after WWII. I believe it was something about being unable to get a blood transfusion.
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But didn't Princess Alice say she wouldn't call Alix 'Alice', because 'they murder' the name here....Maybe SHE called her daughter 'Alice' sometimes? :-/
Yes I read that, too. She didn't like how the Germans pronounced her name. Like Aleeece
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QV to VMH:
Feb 2 1887: 'It is impossible for me to tell you waht a shock your letter gave me! Indeed I felt quite ill--for I am so deeply hurt at Irene's condut towards me wh. is neither kind grateful or straightforward. I spoke to her on the subject not long before she left, & said I don't say it is never be, only don't bind yourself before he goes away on a long voyage--but say you cannot as yet give a promise. And she assured me again & again that she wld never do that!...The least she cld have done wld be to telegraph at once to me: 'Henry is coming after all'. But to learn it from the papers 1st, is too much....I am very fond of Henry, but he has behaved very badly abt Sandro & Liko too--& says very improper things to his Mother. You say you feel sure I will rejoice at her happiness. But that is just what I do not feel sure of. Henry is not at all strong, the Empress hates all connected with your family NOW. Dear Mama did not wish such a marriage for any of you, as little as a Russian one, & her wishes have been totally disregarded...I had other hopes & wishes for Irene [I wonder what] but my wishes & hopes seem never to be fulfilled so it is useless for me to look forward any more.--I see the advantages wh. possibly may be derived from this union; the very fact that Henry will become the Brother-in-Law of Ludwig who is Brother to Sandro--must have a good influence. I remember now that in speaking to Sandro abt. it [I'm sure H & I would've appreciated that ::) ] & saying how I disliked the idea, he seemed rather to favour it....I will write to Irene myself--when I have recd. her 2nd letter. I shall tell her just the same--It reminds me of Ella's & Serge's marriage (wh. I grieve over as much as ever) & that you were made to announce it to me as (I suspect) no one else liked to do it, just after she had declared she wld not accept him!!....I darely hope for better things for lovely Alicky tho' I still have lingering hopes left there!...Papa & you shld. never have left them together & I fear she was driven into a corner. [Based on their engagement photo, a corner she was happily backed into IMO ]
All the italics (which in letters took the form of multiple underlinings) shows how agitated she was. Poor Victoria having to be the conduit! And Henry gets some short-shrift here since he had braved Berlin's displeasure by attending Henry & Beatrice's wedding (where Irene was a bridesmaid) despite Berlin's feelings regarded Henry's morganatic origins.
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Yup, granny was pretty upset over that one. She hadn't wanted Ella to go to RUssia, she didn't want Irene to marry Henry, and she sure didn't want ALix to marry Nicholas. It must have been extremely frustrating. The only grand-son-in-law she was happy about in that family is Louis (but then of course, why wouldn't she be???? ;D)
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But you're not biased. ;) When is your VMH book coming out Ilana? I'm dying!
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Yup, granny was pretty upset over that one. She hadn't wanted Ella to go to RUssia, she didn't want Irene to marry Henry, and she sure didn't want ALix to marry Nicholas. It must have been extremely frustrating. The only grand-son-in-law she was happy about in that family is Louis (but then of course, why wouldn't she be???? ;D)
lol ;D you got to hand it to her!! Queen V was usually always right!!! ;D ;D
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You have to say, too, that QV - for all her adamant protestations about things - was really quite flexible when it came to her granddaughters' happiness. She might have objected at first, but she always came round in the end and did not stand in the way of their decisions. :)
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Very true blue! She was a great lady.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/wgorr/PRUSSIA.jpg)
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It's so ironic to see that print! I'm still unpacking items I've had in storage the last few year and I actually had it! I don't even remember where I got it from--that's been a recurring them since I'd put items away during a foolish period when we moved to Mississippi--and so it's been like Christmas! Is this particular one though also from the Beaven book?
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GDElla,
Not only have you forgotten (but, characteristically, can retrieve!) more than most of us will ever know, you've also stored away more than most of us will ever have! You, my dear, are a living museum! Thank God for your willingness to let all of us visit!
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Thanks Ssyentz. I was able to get quite a bit when I was in college and we were unloading TONS of old magazines at the library where I worked. That's primarily what I had in storage. I don't know what I was thinking. :P
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It's so ironic to see that print! I'm still unpacking items I've had in storage the last few year and I actually had it! I don't even remember where I got it from--that's been a recurring them since I'd put items away during a foolish period when we moved to Mississippi--and so it's been like Christmas! Is this particular one though also from the Beaven book?
Yes it is. I think you might want to add the book to your collection; one chapter is devoted to the author recounting his personal recollections of the Empress Frederick at Schloss Friedrichshof.
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Does anyone know if Irene and Victoria Milford Haven met again after WWII?
I was also wondering if Irene attended VMH funeral?
Thanks.
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I have also heard that while Ella went through Surgery, Grand Duchess Marie Paulovna tried to chicken out of her marriage to Prince Wilhelm of Sweden. Irene told her that it will kill Ella if Marie decided to break the engagement. Quite the martinet here :-/
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Does anyone know if Irene and Victoria Milford Haven met again after WWII?
I was also wondering if Irene attended VMH funeral?
Thanks.
Good question Keith. I wish i could answer it! All i do know is that after the first world war, Victoria told her lady in waiting that things between Irene and herself could never be the same again. Quite sad really.
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Yes, there are some nice photos of those meetings--with Ernie as well--in Charlotte Zeepvatt's Queen Victoria's Family. As for WW2, I don't know. They were both pretty elderly then. Irene wasn't at Philip's wedding to EII for instance. She was German but there weren't Nazi connections there unlike the ones which embarrassed some members of Philip's family. It's not like Irene, or her sons, were involved in WW2.
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Thanks everyone.
I had seen the picture of them, I believe in Sweden in the 30's with Louise. Also, heard that VMH attended Irene's 70th birthday celebration in 1936, but never really heard anything after that.
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All i do know is that after the first world war, Victoria told her lady in waiting that things between Irene and herself could never be the same again. Quite sad really.
I've heard that to, but it seems Victoria had a fairly good relationship with Ernie after the war. If that's true, does anyone know why not quite the same with Irene? Did Irene possibly express pro-german sentiments when they corresponded or met after WWI? I always thought the Hesse sisters were pretty pro-english in their sentiments.
Or was Irene just to closely associated with the Kaiser, and Victoria wanted to distance herself from that?
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Irene could be really difficult. She single-handedly cut her son Sigusmund out of her will because they refused to move back to Germany to keep her company. When her granddaughter Princess Barbara did move back, she left everything to her. Talking about donkey and carrot... :o
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Was it that simplistic (keeping company) or were there more complicated issues of inheritance involved? If Sigismund was determined to stay in Costa Rica, what was the point of leaving him Hemmelmark? He probably would've sold it. Leaving the estate to her granddaughter makes more sense.
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Well one does not cut someone out of the will just because one's child relocated. When Vicky died, she left something in her will to her daughter, Sophie, even though she relocated to Greece.
I also knew that Barbara was spoiled by her grandmother, and when her mother visited Germany, she was not kind to her.
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There was an interesting programme on German tv last night. It was a programme of German popular music, but it was located at Hemmelmark!
Interspersed with dirndl- clad lovelies wandering through the gardens miming their hits, were short interviews with the housekeeper and with the owner herself ( a g. grandaughter of Prince and Princess Henry.
It was interesting to see the gardens and the inside of the house - it's very English in a tidied-up germanic sort of way.
The duchess showed us Prince Henry's invention - he was the first person to patent windscreen wipers. Henry's version wasn't like windscreen wipers today, it was more one blade moving horizontally over the screen. Still it was a start, and must have saved the lives of many pedestrians.
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Yes, Henry was a major automobile fanatic and frequently rode in races. The wiper was fitted to a Benz in which he left Hamburg to drive to England in 1911. The wiper was a rubber one operated by hand.
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Yes, Henry was a major automobile fanatic and frequently rode in races. The wiper was fitted to a Benz in which he left Hamburg to drive to England in 1911. The wiper was a rubber one operated by hand.
Yes that's what it was like - possibly the co-driver would have to operate it, to avoid accidents. Prince Henry was also a founder member of the German Automobile Club, the ADAC (who rescue me when I break down on the Autobahn).
The interviewer in the TV show didn't know much about royalty, so she never asked about Irene or the Romanov connection however when she was shown a portrait of Henry she said "Oh yes, Prince Henry - and his famous sailor cap! ???
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Yes, Henry was a major automobile fanatic and frequently rode in races. The wiper was fitted to a Benz in which he left Hamburg to drive to England in 1911. The wiper was a rubber one operated by hand.
Pr. Henry was indeed an automobile fanatic.
One model of the british make Vauxhall was named after him - the Vauxhall Prince Henry.
Well, to be more precise in honour of Pr.Henry Trial Trophy in Germany, where Vauxhall won the first prize.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Prince_Henry
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/classichistoric/985.asp
http://www.thoroughbred-cars.com/cars/UK/vauxhall/Vauxhall%20Prince%20Henry.htm
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A passion he share with his nephew the crown prince. ;)
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My car is a Vauxhall ;D
But with the utterly unglamourous model name of Vectra :(
I've only had it a couple of months and not got around to giving it its own name. As soon as I read this info I decided it has to be Irene.
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My car is a Vauxhall ;D
But with the utterly unglamourous model name of Vectra :(
I've only had it a couple of months and not got around to giving it its own name. As soon as I read this info I decided it has to be Irene.
There's also an Ernst Ludwig/automobile industry connection. In his memoirs there's a photo of him attending the opening of the Adam Opel car factory in Rüsselsheim, just a few miles/km from Wolfsgarten. this must have been in the 1900s. The Opel headquarters is still in Rüsselsheim, although the company is now owned by GM (who also own Vauxhall).
What about an Opel Melita?
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Great idea, Tdora!
From the memoirs by James W. Gerard My Four Years in Germany . He was American Ambassador to Berlin. He was there in the immediate period before the war and as war was declared, in fact all the way almost until the US entered the war. Very interesting, especially as the memoirs were written while the war was still going on. Here is a bit of what he says about Henry.
Eckernfjord is a little fishing and bathing town. Near by is the country residence of Prince Henry, a rather modest house, built in brick in English Elizabethan style. The wife of Prince Henry was a Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt and is the sister of the Czarina of Russia. We had tea with Prince and Princess Henry, their family, the Duke of Sonderburg-Glücksburg and several others of his family. The billiard room of the house is decorated with the large original caricatures made by McCutcheon of the Prince's stay in America.
Prince and Princess Henry came out to dine on the Utowana, and Armour and the Prince went ashore to attend another Bierabend, but I dodged the smoke and beer and remained on board. Before he left the yacht, I had a talk with Prince Henry. He seemed most exercised over the dislike of the Germans by all other peoples and asked me why I thought it existed. I politely told him that I thought it existed because of the success which the Germans had had in all fields of endeavour, particularly in manufacturing and commerce. He said, with great truth, that he believed a great deal of it came from the bad manners of the travelling Germans.
Prince Henry is an able and reasonable man with a most delightful manner. He speaks English with a perfect English accent, and I think would be far happier as an English country gentleman than as the Grand Admiral of the German Baltic Fleet. He has been devoted to automobiling and has greatly encouraged that industry in Germany. The Automobile Club of Berlin is his particular pet."
Interesting the comment about him being happier as an English country gentleman--the same has been said of NII and even Kaiser Wilhelm.
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For the Prussians because they had English upbringing through the influence of Vicky. Somehow it filtered through when both brothers became elderly.
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They appreciated the style of living they experienced when staying in England with their relatives and friends. The country house lifestyle of the Edwardian period is still regarded as very romantic and enjoyable, and has spawned a lucrative nostalgia industry all of its own! The hospitality was lavish and the shooting superb.
Compared to the stiff and ceremonial German courts, and the opulent discomfort and crushing responsibility of the Russian, to be able to enjoy land and home in this manner would have been something even these all-mighty Emperors yearned for sometimes.
Sort of on the subject (of hunting etc) it was whilst NII and his family were staying at Spala that I first became really interested in Irene. During Alexei's crisis of illness, as Alix fled to spend as much time as she could with him - while keeping his affliction a secret from the guests - it was Irene who took over the hostess duties. Her calm and pleasant manner, and her strength of character and devotion - having experienced her own child suffer the same - was a godsend to poor Alix and her family. Regarded as the least remarkable of Alice's daughters, Irene showed here she was the match of them.
Anyway I've just got back from taking Vauxhall Irene to the shops, and on the way home we went through the carwash for a christening ceremony. It isn't a glamorous car but is handsome and reliable, with an unexpectedly fine performance. Excellent qualities without being flashy.
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Okay her car...nice. ;D
Don't know if Irene herself like cars that much (her sister-in-law Charlotte loved hers) ?
About Irene...
Ernst Ludwig discusses his siblings in one section of his memoirs. His obvious favourites were Ella and Victoria.
(Favourite Aunt - Louise!). About Irene he doesn't say very much except that she had a tendency to want to boss people around!
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Yes she did ! Grand Duchess Marie had wanted to chicken out of her marriage to Wilhelm of Sweden, but bossy Irene was there to put a stop to it. :(
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I'll have to go through my Royalty Digest copies, but I'm positive in one of them, it mentions that Ernie said Irene was the peacemaker of the family.
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Yes...but he also said that Irene was a busybody. She certainly did NOT support Ella when she decided to enter the Orthodox Church.
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Yes...but he also said that Irene was a busybody. She certainly did NOT support Ella when she decided to enter the Orthodox Church.
Really? What did she say? I imagine it wasn't as drastic as Wilhelm to Sophie--you're going to hell for converting.
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I thought the only one of the family that really supported Ella's conversion was VMH.
Couldn't find anything in my Royalty Digest, so either I imagined it or read it elsewhere. I just find it hard to believe that some referred to as the amiables(along w/Henry) would be thought of as bossy.
Plus with GDM memories, not that I think she is lying, but they are written of an arranged bad marriage from 20 odd years later. Had that marriage been successful, I doubt we would have heard of the Irene incident at all, or certainly in a different light. If that points to Irene being bossy, Ella must have been super bossy, engineering the marriage to begin with.
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No...Ella arranged it as she wanted to see Marie well settled before she took the veil. Ella told her that she can make up her mind about it, but I doubt ed very much she would seriously mind had Marie "did an Alicky (interms of Eddy that was)". Marie was unsure, but went along. She hope to get out, but Irene butted in and stopped her from telling Ella "saying that it will kill her aunt" (that is what I call a busy body-how would she know this information will kill Ella ???). Ella later told Marie that Marie had she told her no, she would be cool about it. No..Ella was no super busy body...Irene certainly was !!! >:(
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I don't know I would agree that one incident makes a person a super busy body.
In her book, Marie states when she talked about the incident years later to Ella, she said if she had known about the Irene incident she wouldn't have forced Marie to marry.
Marie then says perhaps. So, she wasn't neccesarily buying it that Ella would have acted any different.
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Well...Marie was termed "to be self-willed and selfish, and rather difficult to deal with" by her Aunt Minny (Greek Minny), so I think in this Marie was a bit unjust to Ella. One has to remember by the time of the marriage, Ella and Marie was said to have reconciled (after Uncle Serge's death, Ella asked Marie's forgiveness for her cold attitute). So why would Ella forced Marie to a marriage she totally disliked ? No...I don't buy that at all. In fact, Ella did her a bit favour by allied her with the Swedish Royal House (one of the most stable in Europe). When later Marie was hard up, it was her Swedish Father-in-law who helped her out with cash.
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I think I remember reading that Marie was not very flattering about Ella in her memoirs?
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No she wasn't, not really until the end. In regards to her marriage Marie herself wrote to William during their engagement that 'we will be able to travel together and to live just as we wish and to suit ourselves. I'm looking forward to a wonderful life--a life full of love and happiness, just as you described to me in your last letters.' So she doesn't seem like she was that opposed as she made out in her memoirs--most likely it was when she found out that she would have less freedom in Sweden that her views soured.
Why do you think Marie (who didn't pull any punches and often cast herself as the victim) didn't mention Irene's involvement in the marriage?
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But she did wrote about Irene's role in her memoirs ! ??? Another thing that I didn't like about Irene was the heartlessness that she cut her son and grandson out of her will. It was more like you do it my way or you are out. Barbara was in because she did what Irene said-keep me company. Barbara was spoiled by her grandmother so much so that when her mother, Anges of Saxe-Altenburg came to visit her from Costa Rica, she was not kind to her. I though "Irene" mean peace, but in her case...Not. >:(
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You're right--she did. My mistake. :-[ I went and got both volumes down and it's in Education of a Princess.
She also states that Ella was apparently unaware of this and when, years later, she informed her of Irene's role, Ella promised her she never would've sanctioned the behavior.
I still don't always know what all is exaggerated in Marie's memoirs but the story is in there.
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Financial settlements and provisions aren't always an accurate reflection of family relationships, and when they are, we can't always know exactly what precipitated such decisions.
A real example: A sister (with no children) is the sole beneficiary of a parent's will. Her brother (with two) is left nothing. During their parent's serious illness, the sister was there for the mother whereas the brother stopped calling and 'disappeared' until the crisis was over. This isn't the reason for the will's provisions, though. Why? The brother has substantial assets which he built using loans from both the parent and sister - which he has never paid a penny back. This was always kept quiet in order to preserve his dignity. If something was to happen to his assets, provision would be made for his children, but as the will stands, only the sister inherits.
To outsiders it seems that the illness breach is the reason behind all this but it isn't. It simply is that the brother has £ of his own - and his sister's inheritance will redress the balance of how he acquired that money.
Family finances are minefields - just look at GVI and EVIII. Irene's motivations may have been justified or not - can we ever really know, or judge ?
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I still like Irene.
As to cutting someone out of your will, while I don't think a will should be used as be nice to me or you get nothing, the bottom line is it was Irene's money/property to do with as she pleased. Why do children/grandchildren at a certain stage start to look at their parents as how much money/property they can get from them when they die? How about going out and earning your own. Afterall, there is the old 3 sides to every story. Yours, theirs, and the reality of the situation, which does not always agree with how sides A or B like to present the situation.
Anyway, does anyone know if Prince Philip ever mentioned any impressions of Irene? I'm assuming at sometime he met her, although it may have only been before WWII.
Have to see if the book on VMH sheds anymore insight to Irene.
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Can't wait for the VMH book!
I agree that there is probably more to the will situation. I've said before who knows what went on--Sigismund and his son were both apparently content to stay in Costa Rica. It would make sense for inheritance sense to leave the property to the person who was living in Germany. Who knows?
It reminds me of a phras I heard once--'It's not your inheritance, it's my money.'
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Anyway, does anyone know if Prince Philip ever mentioned any impressions of Irene? I'm assuming at sometime he met her, although it may have only been before WWII.
When not at school, Philip stayed with various relatives (this was whilst Alice was in the clinic and Andrea in France). He spent at least one summer holiday at Hemmelmark with Irene - I've seen photos of him taken there. I'm fairly sure he also visited her with his mother as a young child too.
Philip is reluctant to discuss most aspects of his early family life and I've not come across any mention of Irene by him. However if there is anything someone here will know of it for you!
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Well I totally agree that what Irene did with her money was of course her business. However it did not reflect her as the kind, and helpful image in the Hesse sisters. Irene personally went down to Costa Rica and demand her son to come back to Hemmelmark (or Europe to live), Sigismund refused, and they parted on bad terms. She then cut him and his family out of her will. When Barbara came to live with Irene, she put her back in. Prince Alfred once said he did not know his grandmother well. I think it is one thing to do with one's money, but quite another to use it to make or break a relationship. Not even a momento (a vase or a clock) to one's offspring is really mean and not at all sentimental. I think I lost my admiration of her after that. Her sister, VMH was much more understanding and less demanding. She supported Ella, when Irene and their father wrote harsh letters to her on the latter's conversion to Orthodoxy. Finally the Anastasia fiasco...
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What about the Anastasia fiasco? :)
I find Irene quite likeable and the fact that both Henry and Irene were referred to as "The very amiables" tells me something! ;D. By some accounts she was very good to Prince Phillip.
Irene was also very kind to Vicky.
Family affairs especially relating to money is always complicated and it's not fair to judge her on that :) Perhaps she felt any money or chattels would be wasted?
Apparently at the time of Irenes death Prince Phillip came under some criticism for not going to her funeral.
Anyway who knows, would be nice to have some more information on her!! :)
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She seems to be more complex then is usually shown but I still believe her basic nature was a good & gentle one. Of course, I'm a Vicky partisan, and as Eddieboy points out, she was very good to Vicky and helped soothe her relationship with Henry which was a great comfort to her. Also, both of them were very kind to poor Feo, Charly's daughter, and very angry at how her parents treated her. They even took her in for awhile.
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I agree that you shouldn't cut someone out of your life because they won't do what you want them to, but again it sounds like we only have one side of the story from the son's perspective. Trust me, in my family, thank goodness not immediate, they cut people out of their lives right and left for foolish reasons IMO, and I usually take the side of the cuttee not cutter. But, I'm aware of the three sides of the situation.
I'll still go with holding off final judgement to see if future info on Irene comes out. A person lives 87 years, and I prefer to base my opinion on more than a few incidents in their life. For every down side presented of Irene, there seems to be a good side to match, just like the vast majority of us.
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It reminds me of a phras I heard once--'It's not your inheritance, it's my money.'
I like that!
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I agree that for every bad side, there is good one. However there is enough evidence to convince me (at least. You may all disagree) that Irene was not the legendary do-gooder, someone who was researching the lives of sisters told me that when Ella converted to Orthodoxy, Irene spent time crying as if her sister died. Guess living too long in Berlin do wonders to you ? VMH was more understanding and less judgemental (remember her lot was not a bed of roses too...).
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I agree that for every bad side, there is good one. However there is enough evidence to convince me (at least. You may all disagree) that Irene was not the legendary do-gooder, someone who was researching the lives of sisters told me that when Ella converted to Orthodoxy, Irene spent time crying as if her sister died. Guess living too long in Berlin do wonders to you ? VMH was more understanding and less judgemental (remember her lot was not a bed of roses too...).
On the tv show I saw, there was an interview with the housekeeper who had started work at Hemmelsmarck in the 1950s - I'm sure she would be able to say whether Irene had been a busy body or not. However she was the soul of discretion and only revealed that though she herself spoke the local dialect, in the house only "hochdeutsch" was spoken (which answers a thread about what dialect the Hohenzollern spoke).
Irene was only mentioned by her g. granddaughter (who was also interviewed) in passing, but I noticed she pronounced the name "Ee-rain" rather than "Ee-rain-er" as it is normally pronounced in German!
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I do hope the family can be reconciled (with Prince Alfred and his nieces). It was bad that that had to happen to Irene's family. She did nothing to heal the rift in her family...Sad. :(
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Do you have a reference to that please Eric?
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Prince Alfred himself. Good enough ? The tiff was well known.
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No it's not good enough. I think it's only fair to know Irenes point of view, don't you?
:)
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Too bad she's dead. The fact that she did not reach out to her grandson made her a mean spirited woman. >:( Irene may have her good points, but in this particular case she was not nice. period. :( I cannot see what defense she had against a grandson who did not offend her personally, guilty by association with his father Sigismund ?
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I don't think it's fair to call her mean spirited.
I think it would be more fair if we had more information on what occured. Besides, as some one pointed out, it was Irenes estate to do with as she wished.
As Eric pointed out, pity Irenes no longer alive.
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Does anyone know what she died of? Old age, or something else. Also, her health after WWII? Thanks.
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Not good...
I did not say she was evil, but she was hard (in the heart towards her son & grandson), so I couldn't see her as the gentle one anymore. VMH is much understanding and reasonable than her younger sister.
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Ernst Ludwig wrote of her, after Henry's death:
"She is alone now but in spite of this she manages to do so much that she is sometimes completely worn out. Her only thought and concern is to find ways in which she can help people time and time again."
I don't believe she was hard-hearted, though she is rather overshadowed by Victoria's brilliance and Ella's saintliness. The fact that she cried when Ella converted is perhaps more indicative of her own religious beliefs and her concern for her father, rather than condemning Ella. Today, when religion is not so vital in the lives of many people, it may be difficult for us to understand the reactions of people of another era to whom adherence to a particular faith was imperative.
Regarding Marie, I think she has rather a selective memory and tends to be very bitter about many people. She originally wanted to marry then changed her mind, perhaps because she had 'cold feet' and she was dithering about when Ella told her to make up her mind. Isn't it possible that Irene's words were slightly twisted or exaggerated by Marie, later? Perhaps, seeing that Ella was ill at the time, Irene said something like, Ella is ill and doesn't need this added worry...it will kill her so make your mind up!!"
It's interesting, too, that Henry often gets 'a bad press' for his short temper etc. but Marie Mallet, meeting him at Kiel in 1896, said she and the other ladies-in-waiting thought him, "the nicest male royalty going" whereas Irene's ladies-in-waiting, she thought 'very dull and by no means easy to get on with.'
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Who knows what the whole story is with her son? I don't think she can be judged solely on that. If we listened to just accounts by Willy's supporters for instance, we'd think Vicky was the worst person to ever walk the face of the earth. There are always more than one side of the story. I think that Marlene or Art (who I think interviewed Albert of Prussia, Irene's grandson) could probably be of benefit here.
As for the Anna Anderson case, I think that shows her peacemaker side. How could she not be drawn to want to see for herself if just one of her nieces could have survived? I don't see it as being a meddler--she was close to the IF & had seen them not long before the war. As one of their closest blood relatives, she certainly wasn't out of her place to do so. The charge could be leveled far easier at many of the other royals who became involved with a lot less connection.
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Well...I don't think Irene was a peacemaker in the Anna case. If she had been, she should had done something constuctive (like Grand Duchess Olga or Grand Duke Andrei), instead she just stirred the waters and washed her hands clean. She later expressed doubts that Anna could have been her niece, but never bother to clear her own doubts...some help I would say.
I did met Afred in Art's conference, I think the word he used was "hard" not cruel or cold. It was then the image of the lovey-dovey image of Irene started to be tainted from my mind. Hey, every one had a dark side, even Irene...So I was not too shocked about it.
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A nice one of Irene looking very pretty
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs12/irenehesse1866.jpg)
I little while ago I saw a great photo of Irenes wedding, taken from above, Vicky and Frits were on it and Empress Augusta. Please could anyone repost it? Thank you :)
Compare her to my AV, don't Alix and Irene look so similar at this age? I think Irene turned rather Matronly were as Alix didn't. :)
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I think Alix's features were softer and finer than Irene. However even Alix aged much during the war years. I think Ella aged the best and VMH went gracefully. ;)
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According to me, the 4 Hessian sisters resembled each other and all took after their mother Princess Alice. They had her thin face and long thin nose (Victoria the Hanoverian bulging eyes). Ernie, on the contrary, inherited his father's good looks.
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Here you go Eddieboy
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/henryandirenesweddingc1888.jpg)
You can see Vicky & Fritz at the top with the Dowager Empress Augusta seated in black; Feo next to her; Ella (?) & Wilhelm standing next to her with Dona on his other side; I think the blurry figure in front of Dona (in the simple dress and flowers) could be Alix
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Wonderful! thank you so much GD Ella, its super photo! Vicky looks lovely. Who are they mourning? Could that be Sophie on the right with the train or maybe she would be younger?
EDIT: are they mourning the Kaiser still?
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They were mourning Kaiser Wilhelm I. He had only died a couple months prior. Mourning was actually temporarily lifted to allow the women to put on their finer dresses and jewels. The Dowager Empress Augusta still wore black. Nonetheless, between that and the fragile health of Frederick III, it was a rather somber time. All the Hessian sisters married with some sort of cloud over them--Ella probably the least. VMH's wedding was toned down owing to the recent death of the Duke of Albany (Ella's was a month after VMH's), Irene's and, of course, Alix's.
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Someone earlier alluded the the fact that Irene and Henry were well off and owned a lot of property. It's a proven fact that the Empress Agusta left the Bulk of her VAST estate to henry. Since Irene and Henry had fewer children than willy and donna, Did irene's family come out of the Revolution a lot better off than willy's family ($$$$ wise) ? Does Irene's heirs or Her granddaughter Barbara and her heirs still own a lot of that property?
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There was probably a steep loss of income though following the crash in the valuation of the mark in the 1930s.
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Yes...But like others Henry and Irene had property, land, jewels, and works of art (some from Friedrich III and some through Vicky). They however would be expected to curb their lifestyle, but since they were not known to be extravgent, it should not be too much of a problem.
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Henry of Prussia and Irene in their old days, 1922 Herrenhaus Hemmelmark.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/prusse.jpg)
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Henry of Prussia 1919
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/henri.jpg)
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Herrenhaus, Hemmelmark, 10 March 1922.
Princess Waldemar of Prussia, Baroness M K von Buxhoevden, Prince Henry of Prussia, Princess Irene of Prussia, Prince Waldemar of Prussia, Serge Wladimirovitch Markoff
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/herrenhaus.jpg)
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Great photos frimousse! I love seeing photos of Henry & Irene post-revolution. Are they from a Russian book?
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Thank you Grandduchessella!
Yes they are from a very interesting book published in the twenties (in Russian) in Emigration by Serge Markoff, a young officer from one of the Tzarina Alexandra Feodorovna regiments, himsef a friend of Lili Dehn and Anna Wyroubova, who wanted to save the Imperial Family from the Bolsheviks with a group of White officers.
He was in link with Irene and Henry of Prussia who supported him after his escape from Soviet Russia.
Henry and Irene were deeply affected by the fate of their sister and sister-in-law and her family.
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Some pictures of Irene:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneofhesse.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/irene2.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneandhenry.jpg)
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Irene was attractive. I love the last one, thank you Sissi. :)
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The duchess showed us Prince Henry's invention - he was the first person to patent windscreen wipers. Henry's version wasn't like windscreen wipers today, it was more one blade moving horizontally over the screen. Still it was a start, and must have saved the lives of many pedestrians.
Really? That's so cool! Wasn't Henry considered by his family to be the "stupid one?" Ha!
As for the inheritance, well, if we're going by what Alfred said, he's hardly an unbiased source! Trust me, having seen this kind of thing in my own family, there are two sides to every story. Also, if Barbara was the one who came and helped her grandmother out while the others refused to do so, why shouldn't she be left something? We don't know the whole side.
And no one is always "nice" or "peaceful". Even Ella and Alicky had their faults. I don't think it's fair to judge Irene by those two incidents (which were reported by very biased sources). And going to see if Anna Anderson was legit-why shouldn't she? Wasn't she one of Anastasia's godmothers?
Besides, from what I gather, she and Henry were very kind and supportive of Vicky after she was widowed and Willy left her in the cold. THAT endears the two of them to me. That could have been why she was so harsh with her own family-perhaps she saw them treating her as Willy did to her mother-in-law.
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Besides, from what I gather, she and Henry were very kind and supportive of Vicky after she was widowed and Willy left her in the cold. THAT endears the two of them to me.
So true Irene was very nice to Vicky. It says it all that they were referred to as the "Very Amiables" in my opinion. :) ;)
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(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneasaninfant.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneteenage.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/itireneteeneage.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneofhesse0.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/ireneofhesse12.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/irneandfamily.jpg)
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Hey, does any correspondence survive between Irene and her Favourite sister Alix?? Especially during Alixs imprisonment? Would be interesting to read! Thank you :)
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Unformtunately, Irene destroyed all her correspondence in 1918.
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I have seen about 30 postcards from Irène to Alix at GARF, Moscow, but no real letters seem to have been preserved.
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It would have been extremely compromising to Alexandra to be in direct contact with her German relatives. She was already percieved as a German sympathiser. Even though we all know she was not. Which is why, no doubt, she destoyed her coresspondence as well.
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Too private for others to see...Queen Alexandra did the same to her correspondence.
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It would have been extremely compromising to Alexandra to be in direct contact with her German relatives. She was already percieved as a German sympathiser. Even though we all know she was not. Which is why, no doubt, she destoyed her coresspondence as well.
Yes, Alix burnt many letters. Based on Lili Dehn's description, she must have destroyed hundreds and hundreds of letters. :'( The "seem to have been preserved" phrase in my earlier post was just to express that I'm not a 100% sure that I have really seen everything they have from Irène. But even if I overlooked one or two letters, it was nice reading these postcards and seeing what kind of cards Irène had sent. :)
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Thank you Helen and everyone for the interesting information, such a shame to think they were destroyed. Ive read VMH thoughts on the IF murder, would have been so interesting to have known Irenes also.
It makes me realise how marvellous Vicky was to have the foresight to send her correspondence to England. Though I still find it incredible that during the Second World War some of her papers where still in the castle and in "considerable disarray" :o
Thank you :)
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Well...It is different. Vicky's want her story to be told and her name vindicated after the lies of Bismark. She had more of history in mind than Alix and Irene did. :P
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Well Vicky was not in such a precarious situation as Alix and Irene found themselves.
Why did Irene destroy her letters in 1918??
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The fall of the monarchy and being married to the Kaiser's brother might have had something to do with it.
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I don't think so...those are private family letters. More likely she thought they are too private for others to see (like Princess Beatrice did with her mother's letters). ???
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What do you think they would contain ? Events of the day, political events and opinions, personal movements such as finances, relatives on opposing sides, etc ?
Certainly no reason to destroy births & deaths, but directions to escape from harm, military postings, observations of personalities.
All the good stuff- of course it went into the flames.
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Yes, but maybe she just didn't like the idea of perfect strangers (and revolutionaries to boot) pawing through her most intimate letters. By the time of the German Revolution, news had filtered out about the presumed fate of the Russian Imperial Family--who knows what went through Irene's mind at the time? It is a great loss though, no doubt. :(
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That was my point GDElla, of course all these topics were extremely private. They could also be equally extremely compromising. Considering the dangers of the times, especially as there was a very real threat of a communist/socialist takeover in Germany, it is quite understanable to destroy all this stuff. Sometimes even innocuous messages as simple weddings, births, etc could conatin more than the mere social foramilties. We shall never know.
What amazes me, at times, is the amount of private papers that HAVE survived. Family archives that are only rarely opened [witness Royals & the Reich]
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I have to disagree with you on this. Military postings ? Irene is no Mata Hari or Laura Croft. She is just a wife and mother who is concerned with her family. Certainly it might contain her opinions on certain people. But so did her mother-in-laws ! The fact that the correspondence of her more intrigue driven sister-in-law, Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen did survive (told to me by John Rohl) the war is a clear indication. Also the Duchess of Coburg (Marie of Russia)'s letters also survived sort of indicated that it was more Princess Irene's personal choice to destroy her letters than pressure from political considerations. :P
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Helen, would it be possible for you to tell us a a bit more about these postcards? content etc? Thank you hon :)
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By military postings I meant which members of the family were where at what time. That would be normal for anyone with a military family. Her letters would most likely not have been subjected to censorship, like ordinary citizens, so such information could concievably be construed as "passing military information".
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Well, Henry was in command of the German Navy, wasn't he? Anything he wrote to Irene, even something seemingly innocuous, could've been used in any potential trial for war crimes. Who knows? I would be a bit paranoid after seeing what happened to my relations in Russia--plus the fact that reports said their car was fired upon as they fled Kiel, with their driver being injured. I wonder if she later regretted burning the letters after things in Germany settled and it became obvious that the German royals, except for the Kaiser, were in no danger?
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Exactly, GDElla.
It is sad for history that her letters are gone, but understandable. Someday, perhaps, her letters to others may surface in a royal archive somewhere.
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Yes, maybe when Irene was elderly and looked back on the past she probably regretted it, especially with Alixs murder and so many other relations gone. As you get older you cling to those kinds of things don't you??
There was a Faberge exhibition in London a little while back and it contained an amazing broach of Irenes. I would love to learn more about her. I will dig out Hessian Tapestry next time im home! :)
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Helen, would it be possible for you to tell us a a bit more about these postcards? content etc?
The copyright on Irène's postcards to Alix belong to GARF and I have not been granted permission to quote from them, so all I can give is general information.
According to my count, 37 postcards covering the years of 1899-1909 have been preserved. The postcards are very much like the postcards any of us might send to relatives. They vary from pictures of characteristic buildings, monuments, and statues at places where she happened to be to a few scenic views, pictures of ships, and various family pictures.
The texts on the cards were quite innocent, I think. Several cards were sent to thank Alix for cards, letters or presents that they had received from Alix, whereas others were sent as accompaniment to presents that Prince Heinrich and Princess Irène sent Alix and Nicholas. One card was sent in November 1904 in remembrance of the death of Princess Elisabeth of Hesse in 1903. In 1905 and 1906, she sent some cards from places where she was on a holiday, describing their activities. There were also some cards to tell Alix about daytrips she had made within Germany. Yes, she did write where she was and for which place she and/or Heinrich would leave the next day and she did refer to visits of submarines or seeing a particular ship once or twice, but she hardly gave any details. It all sounded quite harmless, especially considering the fact that the cards were all sent well before WWI. Of course, there is only so much text one can write on a postcard. Any subject that required more than a few words would have been discussed in a proper letter now lost. :'(
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I wonder if she sent any of her relations postcards from China? I think at one point she was the only European female royal to go there when she visited Henry when he was on a long deployment there. She was pretty well-traveled as she tried to visit him in different places when she could.
On a related note, does anyone know why there was a gap between Waldemar and Sigismund? Was it worries over his hemophilia, Henry's frequent (and long) deployments, a combination of both?
We know a good deal about how QV, Alice, Alix, Ena and, to an extent, Alice Albany, dealt with have a hemophiliac son. Is there anything really out there about how Irene dealt with it--and Henry for that matter?
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They are the best ! Missy had those in her pocession and they are now in Romania. I also know that Baby Bee's letters also survived and it is that is the basis of the book about her in Spainsh still being written as we speak.
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Maybe someday they'll be a book about the Edinburgh/Coburg daughters the way Ilana's new book on VMH has been expanded to include her sisters. That would be a real treat! It would also be a way to get some real info out there on Sandra, who otherwise wouldn't support a whole bio. Just an idea. :)
Anyway, back to Irene.
Apparently the mausoleum at Hemmelmark was once broken into (I don't know when but it seems after Henry & Irene's death). Henry Jr's coffin was stolen and searched for valuables and then tossed into the sea! The police found the (embalmed) body still in the coffin--it had luckily become partially frozen in ice rather than just floating out to sea--and it was reentombed. How horrible. :'( Apparently because of this, Sigismund's daughter Barbara, who had been adopted by Irene as heir, refused to be buried there and asked instead to be buried at sea near Hemmelmark.
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We were in Hemmelmark last week. Near the mausoleum is a memorialgrave to Barbara. She is buried at sea near Helgoland.
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Any photos of the place ? ???
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No we just have a look ??? Of course !!!
on my website www.royaltyguide.nl (http://www.royaltyguide.nl) Choose: New, and see which places we all visited and there is more to come.
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Wonderful--thanks so much for sharing. :)
If I remember correctly, it's Henry and Irene buried side-by-side and the single grave is Henry Jr's?
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Who was Henry Jr. ? The third son that died young ? ???
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Yes--Waldemar, Sigismund and then Henry (b.1900, died either 1903 or 1904).
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He was the one born also with haemopehelia... :'(
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Henry (b.1900, died either 1903 or 1904).
He died in 1904.
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Shame Irene does not appear to have kept a journal (?) would make interesting reading, especially her visits to Russia, the Romanovs and her own family and grief...
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Maybe she did...but burned it with the correspondence. :(
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Henry (b.1900, died either 1903 or 1904).
He died in 1904.
I thought it probably was but didn't have time to check and didn't want to make an error. :P
It was reported in one newspaper (perhaps the New York Times) that he died after falling from a chair--not a serious injury but with the hemophilia.... :(
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That is what happened. He fell from a high chair, and it all went from bad to worse because of the hemophilia.
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Maybe some of you have seen these two pictures but anyways here they are again! ;)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/irenemariage2.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/irenesitting.jpg)
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Why did Irene have the reputation for being "not the sharpest tool in the shed"?
Vicky onced stated that neither Henry or Irene ever read a newspaper.
TampaBay
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Maybe she did...but burned it with the correspondence. :(
Maybe, but most unlikely. Because the receivers own the letters written by Irene.
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True...although if the person was deceased before Irene's death, they usually sent the letters she wrote back to her. So those will be gone. The only other place that had a correspondence that had not been touched is Sweden. The correspondence between Irene and her cousin Daisy Connaught (Crown Princess of Sweden) and those to her niece Louise Mountbatten (Queen of Sweden). Ilana told me that she was refused permission to research those documents for her book on VMH. So there may still exist a sourse to Irene... ???
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So Irene had correrspondence with Daisy? Was it just during the war years and immediately afterwards as a conduit between relatives on different sides of the war?
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Indeed ! Daisy was tireless working for her relatives in both sides for news and casulties. Irene only got to know the news from her relatives through her. It was tragic that Daisy died so young. :'(
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How come that Irene was so neglected by her family (not that kind of neglection, such as starving her of love! I am sure that Ludwig and Alice loved Irene as much as they had loved their other children. But I mean why there were more mentions of Victoria, Ella, Ernie, Alix, and May compared to Irene)?
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Irene was a good girl, but unfortunately not brillliant nor a problem child. Those tend to be ignored a bit. ???
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We also don't know that she was ignored at the time--she's been ignored in modern times as people write about her siblings--all of whom had more forceful personalities and/or interesting lives. There could be plenty of mentions of her in letters, diaries, etc... that are just never quoted.
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Well...Irene did not feature much in Alice's letters to her mother (unlike VMH, Ella, Alicky & may and...Fritte). ???
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Exactly. It's totally understandable that historians didn't mention Irene much, but when it came down on how often Alice and other relatives mentioned Irene in letters...it's somewhat intriguing that Irene's name didn't come up often. Perhaps it was just another classic case of a middle child being ignored in the large family.
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Definitely a good girl. I wondered how she felt about all this thing of being "forgotten" by others and that her sisters, both older and younger, overshadowed her. Hey...I used to think that Victoria and Ella were the Hessian Big Pair and Irene and Alix were the Hessian Little Pair, but it was before I started reading books about their family and their relatives. So I was wrong then! Am I correct that Alix was closer to Ella than Irene, especially after her marriage to Nicholas?
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I thionk Alicky was close to Irene as a near age sister, while Ella & VMH were big sisters. She actually became closer to Irene when their children both had haemophelia. :(
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Oh really? I don't know...it just seemed that Alicky was closer to Ella because they're living in the same country and have Russian princes as husbands.
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With both sisters having children with haemophila , it created a bond with them (not to mention they are neaer in age than VMH & Ella). There are some lovely pics of the sisters in a book called the "Jewel album" . ;)
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Gotcha! ;) But if Alix and Irene were close, then why wasn't their bond mentioned in some books I've read? It did make sense that since they had haemophilic sons and their close age, they should be closer compared to Alix and Ella.
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Indeed...I am afraid that was because both sisters destroyed their correspondence with each other during WWI. But think about it...When Anna Anderson appeared who was among the first to see if she was geniune ? Irene ! ::)
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According to Richard Hough Alix was closest to Irene and it was Irene who was most affected by her death...
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She looks more like Ella than any of the sisters, imo. Was she the same in temperament? What about her religious devotion? I'm sure all the ducal family shared the devotion GD Alice instilled in them but did she take it to the depths of Alix or the heights of Ella? I haven't read much about this Hessian sister so any info would be appreciated.
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She was a good Lutheran, I believe. She doesn't seem to have been excessively religious or pious--certainly not at the level of her sister-in-law, Empress Augusta Victoria--but I believe she was upset at Ella's renunciation of the faith they were raised in, especially as it wasn't mandatory like Alix's.
The best sources of information on Irene are probably David Duff's Hessian Tapestry and Richard Hough's The Mountbattens. Ilana's upcoming book deals with all 4 sisters. I can't wait!
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Don't hold your horses...Ilana told me that the book has very little on Irene as she destroyed most of her letters. I guess she remain elusive since it seemed to be her wish to be so. I will however look forward to Ilana's book about VMH, which has quite a lot of information through her decendents. She promised me quite a few surprises too... ;)
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It's a shame she destroyed much of her writings. Did she do anything special or meaningful after she was married as far as the Prussian Royal Family was concerned? or was Irene simply the sister to be remembered as having two hemophiliacs in the family. Was it Irene that was the carrier in this branch or was there more than one? Vicky wasn't a carrier. But what of any others?
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Don't hold your horses...Ilana told me that the book has very little on Irene as she destroyed most of her letters. I guess she remain elusive since it seemed to be her wish to be so. I will however look forward to Ilana's book about VMH, which has quite a lot of information through her decendents. She promised me quite a few surprises too... ;)
Yes, but it will have some Irene. I didn't say it was a bio on her. The other books came out a couple decades ago (or more) so this will be the first new book to deal with Irene (even marginally) at all. Ilana has spent a long time on the book and I'm sure it will be well worth it.
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Let's put it this way, I believe that Irene was certainly stronger than some people give her credit for... and yet, she was a pleaser and a peace maker.
Don't get your hopes up that there will be much new info... however, she is present in the book, of course.
Surprises?? I don't know....
Look for it this Spring.
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I think it is brave of Ilana to tackle this difficult subject. Would be proud to read the fruits of her research... ;)
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I can't wait myself. :)
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Peace-maker, Ilana? It struck me as a big irony! Irene's name means "peace" (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and her mother gave her that name because there's some kind of a war, a very brief war I think, that ended shortly before Irene's birth. So...Irene the Peacemaker ;D
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Irenes birthdate - year:
1866 a very important war when you look at germanys History - Preußen gegen Österreich- as we all know, Preußen won the war and the King of Preußen became Emperor of an unified Germany. Alexander von Hessen und bei Rhein, VMH Father in Law (Julie von Battenbergs Husband) fought as the General of the
8. Armeekorps, for Austria, Preußen ran over the Austrian Army (they didn't really have a clear line, which was not Alexanders fault!!), Alexander came back and had aged extremly after this "short" war, left the Austrian Army afterward, was very dissappointed.
Now refering to Ilanas book (books???) The four Graces, is it "the" book on VMH or is it a seperate one on Victoria coming out later??
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To clarify: It's THE FOUR GRACES, and it's the story of the 4 sisters through the eyes of VMH.
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Thank you Ilana dear :) It is a biography?? With letters etc??
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She was a good Lutheran, I believe. She doesn't seem to have been excessively religious or pious--certainly not at the level of her sister-in-law, Empress Augusta Victoria--but I believe she was upset at Ella's renunciation of the faith they were raised in, especially as it wasn't mandatory like Alix's.
The best sources of information on Irene are probably David Duff's Hessian Tapestry and Richard Hough's The Mountbattens. Ilana's upcoming book deals with all 4 sisters. I can't wait!
It does seem that all the Ducal children were innately religious. And not only was Irene upsent but their father was EXTREMELY upset according to some letters Ella wrote to him and QV.
I can't wait for Ilana's book as well, but Hessian Tapestry - the only one I could find was on Amazon for $150.00! My library doesnt' carry it so I guess I'll have save up. So David Duff's book does delve more into Irene than other sources?
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Why limit yourself to Amazon -- branch out to major search tools - such as www.addall.com
Search out of print titles == and type Hessian Tapestry for the book title - and voila!
She was a good Lutheran, I believe. She doesn't seem to have been excessively religious or pious--certainly not at the level of her sister-in-law, Empress Augusta Victoria--but I believe she was upset at Ella's renunciation of the faith they were raised in, especially as it wasn't mandatory like Alix's.
The best sources of information on Irene are probably David Duff's Hessian Tapestry and Richard Hough's The Mountbattens. Ilana's upcoming book deals with all 4 sisters. I can't wait!
It does seem that all the Ducal children were innately religious. And not only was Irene upsent but their father was EXTREMELY upset according to some letters Ella wrote to him and QV.
I can't wait for Ilana's book as well, but Hessian Tapestry - the only one I could find was on Amazon for $150.00! My library doesnt' carry it so I guess I'll have save up. So David Duff's book does delve more into Irene than other sources?
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Seeing Marlene post here reminds me that I should've said that Queen Victoria's Descendants is, of course, a great source of information on Irene as well. :)
Hessian Tapestry deals with the whole Hesse family from the time that Alice married into it so it has a focus on Irene and her family that other books don't have. Even still, she's probably the least delved-into of the siblings. It was also written back in the 1970s, long before there was new archival material from the former Soviet Union, so it's a little out-dated. Nonetheless, it's one of my all-time favorite books and one I searched for in used bookstores all over the US (and in London on my honeymoon) until the advent of the Internet allowed me to find a copy. David Duff just had a great style of writing and it's a very enjoyable book.
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I can't wait for Ilana's book as well, but Hessian Tapestry - the only one I could find was on Amazon for $150.00! My library doesnt' carry it so I guess I'll have save up. So David Duff's book does delve more into Irene than other sources?
I snagged my copy for about $30.00 on Amazon. Just keep checking periodically. I also use Bookfinder.com. Marlene's suggestion is great too. :)
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Places such as abebooks.com allow you to put titles on a 'want list' and they notify you when the titles appear--no obligation to purchase. I just got a couple of Prince Michael's book on his family that way--it took a few months but it was for $50.
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It is a book well worth your pennies... ;)
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Many thanks to you all for your help and suggestions. I didn't know about Queen Victoria's Descendants either. Our library here is limited since Hurricane Katrina, but even before it needed much updating.
Thank you all for the links and tips! I can't wait to begin.
Lori :)
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Places such as abebooks.com allow you to put titles on a 'want list' and they notify you when the titles appear--no obligation to purchase. I just got a couple of Prince Michael's book on his family that way--it took a few months but it was for $50.
Thank you so much grandduchessella. I am so out of the loop down here in Katrina-land that I didn't even know Prince Michael had written books on his family. It is Prince Michael of Kent correct?
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Prince Michael of Greece
Places such as abebooks.com allow you to put titles on a 'want list' and they notify you when the titles appear--no obligation to purchase. I just got a couple of Prince Michael's book on his family that way--it took a few months but it was for $50.
Thank you so much grandduchessella. I am so out of the loop down here in Katrina-land that I didn't even know Prince Michael had written books on his family. It is Prince Michael of Kent correct?
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Oops. Thank you Marlene. Excuse my ignorance. I get confused w/just Prince Michael listed because Prince Michael of Kent is so outspoken about his ancestry and was on N&A documentary by A & E.
and thank you too for your kind suggestions for QVD. I plan to make it Christmas gift to myself.
Especially since I can't get Hessian Tapestry just yet! ;)
Lori
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Alexis, and his aunt irene in the back:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alexei_irene.jpg)
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Alexis, and his aunt irene in the back:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alexei_irene.jpg)
did Irene have a closer relationship to the Romanov's than her other German-based relatives? This photo appears to be circa 1912 or thereabouts. Any info on either of these questions? thanks,
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The only close relative Irene had in Russia were her sisters Ella & Alicky. I don't think she was close to Minny at all. :(
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Ernst Ludwig wrote that Irene's "only thought and concern is to find ways in which she can help people, time and time again." :)
Having not read much about this Hessian sister, It still never ceases to amaze how very much all of them had it common in terms of helping others and their call to duty. A tribute to their mother!
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Thank you for that lori, I agree. I love any new info on Irene. Is it possible to buy copies of Ernies memoirs? Interesting trs?hat both Ernie and VMH wrote there memoirs. Willy and Moretta wrote theirs as did Missy. Any others? :)
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I don't think Irene would have like a bio on her, she purposely destroyed quite a lot of her letters... :(
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Agreed, Irene very retiring...wanted to leave the limelight to others. However, it really is too bad she destroyed her correspondence in 1918.... Some of the observations that still survive are very interesting.
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If I could stretch the point to compare other cars I've been through, I'd say there was a Nicky in there, a QV and two thirds of the Whispering Wales' too. I'm almost done making a Yugo 45 I got (for free of course) roadworthy again. Any suggestions? Its properly Slovenian now (made iin Ljubljana pre-Balkan conflicts) - maybe the Montenegrin and Serbian courts could spare a controversial candidate..?
Not one of my better ideas :-[
We are going to a music festival nr Neustrelitz in a few weeks' time - we went last year and of course I tried to take in as much of the town as I could given its royal connections (mostly known to me re QM's Aunty Augusta).
This time I want to take a couple of extra days and give Hemmelmark a go Is there anything there or in the Kiel area I ought to see or would it be a wasted journey when it comes to the royal landmarks? Sorry if any of this has been gone through before but I'd rather ask here before trying out the more general tourist websites.
ANy info - and especially impressions and personal ratings - gratefully received.
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Heinrich's and Irene's Herrenhaus at Hemmelmark is private property, but the estate is on the route of the Prinz-Heinrich-Fahrt old-timer race and it seems participants are welcome for tea and sandwiches or something of the sort on the day of the race. Somewhere on the Internet, it says that those who don't have an old-timer themselves can 'participate' in an old-timer coach. :-\ Don't know when the next race will be held.
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Ah - don't know anything about oldtimer car rallys/races but my other half is the one in the motor racing scene so I'll get him to find out something. Not that we'll have any chance of joining in anything of the sort - the Yugo will not count will it? - but one can never know. We might try sneaking over the wall while everyone's making for the tea urn and the bathroom. I've gatecrashed a few functions over the years (pre the ultra security days anyway) by wearing canape-carrier black-and-whites and looking Purposeful.
I expect its wise to that kind of kiddy stunt though. :(
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On second thoughts, I'm not entirely sure about the racing aspect. It's called a Fahrt in German, which suggests a drive rather than a race.
According to the information at http://www.classics-eckernfoerde.de/html/home.html (http://www.classics-eckernfoerde.de/html/home.html), the next Eckernförde Classics will be held on 20-22 July 2007.
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Thank you so much Helen for the 8) link and info.
I'd really like to do the bonus visit to Hemmelmark after Neustrelitz this year, even if its just to tour the general area (and nurse my hangover somewhere serene). Lets see what there is.
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Don't know if it open to the public ? ???
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The site svetabel mentioned on the Pictures of Henry & Irene's family thread also yielded these:
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/lb-1_die_gruenderin.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/a02-02.jpg)
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Fascinating!! Thank you so much GD Ella. She looks very determined in the first one and sweet and kind in the second - I wonder if she was opening a hospital.
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The above photo was probably taken at some function of the "DRK-Heinrich-Schwesternschaft e.V." (Henry Sister Organisation of the DRK - Deutsches Rotes Kreuz / German Red Cross). According to its website at http://www.heinrich-schwestern.de/heinrichs_geschichte.php (http://www.heinrich-schwestern.de/heinrichs_geschichte.php), Irène founded the Gesellschaft Heinrich-Kinder-Hospital (Heinrich Child Hospital Society) at Kiel in 1906 after the death of her son and then set up an associated training college for nurses during WWI. The sister organisation joined the German Red Cross in 1937.
GARF, Moscow, has a postcard from Irène to Alix that mentions a hospital: "...We opened the Hospital on 30th May + it is already much in request + promises to be a great success. Yr. lov. sis Irène."
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Is that second photo dated 1952? It looks like it, and nice to see Irene at age 86 looking so full of life. Does anyone know her cause of death?
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Is it true Irene was trying to look for Alix and her family after the revolution? ???
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Where did you read that dear? :)
Why would she? She was a sensible woman and no doubt Victoria wrote to her.
She did meet AA and was disgusted by her manners. Apparently the subject so upset her that Henry eventually forbid any mention of it.
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Is it true Irene was trying to look for Alix and her family after the revolution? ???
I'm sure she was searching for information on them, there were so many rumors flying around in the immediate years, trying for absolute proof.
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Also Irene herself was not sure of AA. As later when asked about her she said " She was similar...But it doesn't mean anything if it wasn't she ?". Later still she admited that it might be Anastasia after all and she made a mistake. ???
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I read that information from a book !!! The Romanov family albums. Irene was trying to look for her sister Alix because the last time they saw each other was in 1913. She defantly disapproved of her sister Ella she decieded to leave Lutheranism and convert to Russian Orthodox with she married Sergei, Alix also did the same thing too after she was married to Nicholas. But still she cared about them and keep contact with them. Irene has not heard from them since but she was living around the time where many where spreading rumors and people claiming to be members of the imperial family she could not have believed all these survivor rumors. But she did believe that the imperial family and Ella was murdered by bolsheviks. Later in her life Anna Anderson was claiming to be Anastasia who she last saw 8 years ago from 1921 but Irene did not believe her dispite her giving out correct facts about Anastasia's life she though of her as nothing but a fraud.
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One has to remember that with age comes clarity or the reverse. She might rethink her postion after years. Certainly Olga A indicated that she caved in after "family pressure" was set in. Irene once said AA looked a bit like Tataiana... ???
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The Fundmental Laws required that the soveriegn and the heir marry Orthodox women - so Alix had to convert. Ella did not convert until several years after her marriage - at her own decision.
I read that information from a book !!! The Romanov family albums. Irene was trying to look for her sister Alix because the last time they saw each other was in 1913. She defantly disapproved of her sister Ella she decieded to leave Lutheranism and convert to Russian Orthodox with she married Sergei, Alix also did the same thing too after she was married to Nicholas. But still she cared about them and keep contact with them. Irene has not heard from them since but she was living around the time where many where spreading rumors and people claiming to be members of the imperial family she could not have believed all these survivor rumors. But she did believe that the imperial family and Ella was murdered by bolsheviks. Later in her life Anna Anderson was claiming to be Anastasia who she last saw 8 years ago from 1921 but Irene did not believe her dispite her giving out correct facts about Anastasia's life she though of her as nothing but a fraud.
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Yes...some converted without a hitch like Dagmar (Empress Marie Feodorovna). ::)
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Well conversion was not a difficult issue for a Protestant Princess generally. Of course the Roman Catholic Princesses always found it difficult due to the doctrine that their Church was the only valid one which of course is not true. Poor Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain was made to feel totally humiliated when she converted to the Roman Catholic Church. Back to the real reason for this thread though. I always felt sorry for Princess Irene of Prussia on losing her two sisters and their families and then having to put up with the fraud Anna Anderson.
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I do too. How devastating it must have been for the siblings of the Empress (and all others that were close to the family, not to mention related). And that Irene seemed to be targeted along with GD Olga & Xenia seems so cruel.
Though Irene's persona seems not to come through alot in surviving narratives, she seems IMO to possess the same quiet strength that her mother and even Ella possessed. As well as VMH. Though I don't know if she possessed the same nervous strain from her mother as well.
To have more than one hemophiliac son would be quite a hurdle to say the least. She seems to have handled it differently than Alix. But then again, there wasn't the pressure of having to produce an heir nor did she IMO seem to have the "nervous" condition that bordered on hysteria that Alix exhibited. Not that I personally would blame Alix. As a mother, standing by watching your child edge to the brink of death over and over and over again, would certainly not have drive ME to the brink of a breakdown. But Irene seems to have handled it differently. And IMO deserves much respect and admiration for it. And it is a credit to Princess Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse, that her children were so united and had such a bond. Except for the end of course when Ella and Alix drifted apart. But IMO Irene never waivered in her loyalty to her siblings even after the horrible events of the Revolution, WWI and it's aftermath
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Yes you are spot on. Alix was the strange one alright. Fancy alienating a sister like Ella. The poor woman was just trying to warn her sister and was frozen out by Alexandra who simply didn't want to know. Ella was in a perfect position to hear concerns expressed as she lived and worked among ordinary people and heard their frustrations and concerns. What a foolish woman Alexandra was not to listen. Poor Irene losing both sisters. I feel particularly for her. I do hope she and Victoria corresponded as they both lived long lives and saw much change occur.
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She did and her relatives did visit Hemmelmark from time to time. Lady Pam (daughter of Dickie Mountbatten) visited there as a girl according to her sister Countess Mountbatten. However she did lost me when she tried to entice her son Sigismund to leave Costa Rica and move back with her in Germany, when he refused she cut him & his family out of her will. However when her grandaughter Barbara moved back with her, she put her back into the will (she was the sole heiress of Irene's estate). What about the unconditional love of a mother to a child ? She appeared mean to me and her actions towards Marie Paulovna (the younger) was almost emotional blackmail. >:(
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I think Victoria and Irene kept contact with their sisters even if they converted to a different religion. Ella was trying to warn Alexandra about Rasputin but she simply refused to listen. I do not think Irene approved of Rasputin. I think Alexandra was being judged becuase of Rasputin and her being a german princess previously. I realy think they coresponded over the years even during the revolution but from time to time. I realy think Olga and Ella coresponded more with the family than Victoria and Irene. They were somewhere else.
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There again both Irene and VMH did not know the situation in Russia as Ella did. :(
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There again both Irene and VMH did not know the situation in Russia as Ella did. :(
Of course not they were not living in Russia Victoria and Irene. Ella was living in Russia so she knew the situation well.
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So when Ella warned Alicky, her sisters (VMH & Irene) were supportive but understood the younger woman stance. :(
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I'm not sure whether they understood it at all. I think there were probably both deeply disturbed about things and hoped that there would be a positive solution. Sadly there was not.
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VMH & Irene both understood Alicky's anguish as a mother and dependent on Rasputin. :(
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I think both women understood her anguish over Alexis. I doubt they understood Rasputin.
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Ella on the other hand knew him only too well. :(
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Yes that is why she tried to warn Alexandra. Sadly Alexandra refused to listen. Nobody could help her or more sadly Russia under her misguided rule. So many people paid an appalling price due to her bone headedness, even her children.
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Yes...Irene and VMH understand her stance as a mother, but cannot consel Alicky on politics since she was a know-it-all already. :(
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Yes that is why she tried to warn Alexandra. Sadly Alexandra refused to listen. Nobody could help her or more sadly Russia under her misguided rule. So many people paid an appalling price due to her bone headedness, even her children.
Yes that is true Ella did try to warn Alexandra about how much trouble Rasputin is but she continued to drink coffee often and didn't Sandro try to talk since into Alexandra? Something was obviously wrong with her.Victoria and Irene did not know Rasputin well enough to realy judge him like Ella did. Alexandra had many headaches and pains and her children suffered too they had got meacles. Irene was not there to help Alexandra as much as Ella tried to do.
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Well at a certain point the sisters were on opposing sides of a world war which greatly curtailed Irene's communication with her siblings in Russia and her sister in England, not to mention her voluminous cousins and relations. Irene, IMO, most certainly would have understood Alix's anguish over Alexei and her feelings of helplessness. But it seems that she handled her hemophiliac children differently. And she understood, as did the rest of the Hesse children, Alix's propensity for hysteria. They knew Alix was high strung since childhood, and could be difficult and moody. But they were all still very close including Ernie.
VMH and Irene seemed the voice of reason that did not offend Alix as much as Ella for whatever reason. After 1914, it was very difficult anyway to have much contact with each other. So it seemed to fall upon Ella to try to reach Alix in anyway she could as she was in Russia.
VMH and Irene were quite aware of Rasputin's "hold" over Alix and whatever it was that he did to prey upon her anquish over her dying child. Mainly through correspondence from Ella and others that made it to them through clandestine channels. But they were helpless given the circumstances to do any sort of intervention. It is doubtful that it would have made any difference anyway. So it fell upon poor Ella to try to stem the tide. And since Ella had to stand alone, she was "driven out" like a dog as she put it.
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Yes it was then Ella started to regret brining Alicky to Russia. Had she been less "helpful" it would not have taken place. That is why she cried "Poor Nicky ! Poor Russia !" :(
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Well, certainly hemophilia was a chance they took when they had their children. But neither the Imperial Couple, Ella or anyone else could have predicted the tidal wave that seemed to happen with the appearance of Rasputin. So in reality, those that knew that Alix could be obstinate and single-minded, nobody could have forseen that the coming of Rasputin would be the harbinger of the end of the Empire. Certainly, the couple themselves didn't see it.
But that's another topic. Rasputin was only the tip of a 300 year old iceberg.
IMO, had the war and distance not seperated the sisters, and had Alix not have isolated herself so much, perhaps she would have found some sort of support system, something she clearly needed - as any parent of a disabled or dying child does. Had Irene been the one in Russia, would it have made any difference?
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Yes...Once Her mind was made up, mpthing can made her change her mind. :(
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Well Eric, Alix was determined not to marry Nicky and change religion, but Nicky won her over! She clearly did change her mind.
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hardly a very good example
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I very much doubt it. Alexandra was extremely obstinate and not known for listening to anybody who did not agree with her. She was blind to the reality of many things as she chose not to see.
Yes, I quite agree. IMO both Nicky and Alix moved through life with blinders on. Nicky perhaps because that was his defense mechanism, Alix too in her own way. Though clearly Alix was to blame as was her husband for this character trait as it has serious consequenses and surely they could have changed and been open to discussions and new ideas.
Irene (as well as VMH) seemed to see life and it's trials and victories for what they were, just that. Irene seemed quite practical and no nonsense but open to discussion at least.
I think that the firmness and strong will was a trait that all members of the Hesse children shared. But Irene does not seem to be as intractable as her younger sister.
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In her own way, Irene can be hard too. The way she blackmailed Marie Paulova (the younger) to marry against her will and the cutting off of her son and grandson from her will are example of her hardness. :(
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Yes, Irene could be as firm an unyielding as Alix. But IMO not as intractable. Alix seemed to have an iron will on EVERY issue and wanted to be in control of every situation. Luckily the man she loved was not the same.
But as far as being obstinate at the risk of the lives of her family (and an Empire), Irene at least was not in that position.
Quite possible she could have as hard as Alix had she been Empress of Russia instead. But, IMO, Irene always seems in what little I have read of her to fall somewhere in the middle with traits of all of her sisters (both good and bad).
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Yes I agree. Irene was far more sensible in most things. Sadly for Alexandra she had a weak husband who would not stand up to her and put her politely in her place. He just caved in and let her rule him. That is hardly a sign of a man worthy of being Tsar of the great Russian Empire. Alexander III would have known how to deal with Alexandra. He would have sent her away somewhere out of harm's way.
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Indeed...If Irene had been Empress...I don't think there would be such a disaster. ???
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Yes, IMO, NII knew he wasn't worthy of Ruling Russia and he knew certainly wasn't ready. AIII knew he wasn't ready, describing him as "an absolute child" But that's another story.
Irene and Nicky certainly wouldn't have been a match so her prospects of being a Russian Empress were slim and none.
However, haven't read very much on her, I would like to know more of how she is remembered?. All of her siblings seem to remembered for something. Which characteristic and traits desribe Irene? The siblings stayed close, often visiting at Irene's at least before the War.
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Well she was the most amicable of the bunch, but could sometimes be a busybody... ???
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Really? A busy body? How would you know that?
Eddie
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Eddie - Eric comes out with some story of how dear Irene pushed Grand Duchess Marie into her marriage to spare Ella any grief & how she left her estate to her granddaughter or something etc etc ;). I'm sure Eric can elaborate on this more... :-X
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Actually her brother Ernie in his memoirs describes her as a bit of a busybody. I was amazed when I read this, as Irene was still alive at the time. I expect he intended it as a light hearted criticism, however. So I agree with Eric on this.
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I think Mr. Beeche can illustrate this much better, re: Hemmelmark, since he knows a lot about the situation.
Eddie
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Actually her brother Ernie in his memoirs describes her as a bit of a busybody. I was amazed when I read this, as Irene was still alive at the time. I expect he intended it as a light hearted criticism, however. So I agree with Eric on this.
I believe his memoirs weren't published until the early 80's, so Irene may not have been aware that he had even written them.
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I think Mr. Beeche can illustrate this much better, re: Hemmelmark, since he knows a lot about the situation.
Eddie
I think Art did write some on the situation on either this thread or another (I hope it's not one of the long-gone ones) but didn't go into too much detail since (it seemed to me anyway) that much information was told to him in the capacity of his friendship with the family rather than in a journalistic capacity.
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Irene was indeed a busybody...She did not help the situation with Ella and her niece...in fact it made it worse. :o
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Well, I am awaiting Ilana Miller's "The 4 Graces" which will feature all 4 Hessian sisters in a group biography. I prefer Ilana's more scholarly analysis to any snap judgements by others, no disrespect intended.
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I"ve been waiting for that book since it was semi-announced on this Forum years ago!! I think Art said it would be ready for Christmas. *fingers crossed*
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Actually her brother Ernie in his memoirs describes her as a bit of a busybody. I was amazed when I read this, as Irene was still alive at the time. I expect he intended it as a light hearted criticism, however. So I agree with Eric on this.
I believe his memoirs weren't published until the early 80's, so Irene may not have been aware that he had even written them.
They were püblished in german in the early 1930s - and were in fact originally written for his sons!
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Thanks for the new info...I think it would be nice to see the fruits of Ilana's work, but I think most will be info on VMH (Ilana favorite subject) ! I have talked to Ilana a few times about this. ;)
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Indeed...If Irene had been Empress...I don't think there would be such a disaster. ???
Respectfully disagree vehemently with this idea. There is no evidence and no political or social means that a different wife for NII would have quelled the Bolshevik agendas, altered the vastly overwhelming Russian system, or had any different impact on the outcome the Romanov's suffered. While Alexandra had Nicky under control personally and to some extent by thusting him forth to say/do ill-advised things, he was a victim not only of his incompetence but also of the huge tsunami of opposition both revolutionary and among his own circle of people with some power. Irene, I think, would have been no more different in net effects vs her sister than vanilla ice cream is to vanilla with almonds; same flavor just a relatively small difference ...nothing that would have changed the course of events during his reign.
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Yet...There would still be a difference. Maybe had Irene became Empress, the family might have survived ? ???
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Actually her brother Ernie in his memoirs describes her as a bit of a busybody. I was amazed when I read this, as Irene was still alive at the time. I expect he intended it as a light hearted criticism, however. So I agree with Eric on this.
I believe his memoirs weren't published until the early 80's, so Irene may not have been aware that he had even written them.
They were püblished in german in the early 1930s - and were in fact originally written for his sons!
Thanks for the info, I had only seen an 80's publication date. Must have been a reprint.
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Well Irene was sadly a carrier as was Alexandra. Nicholas needed a wife like Alexandra's older sister Victoria Alberta. She had far more brains and common sense than Alexandra.
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I think one critical point here would be the belief in the absolute authority of the Tsar. Tenuous belief in an outdated and unwieldy autocracy was a major factor in Alix's fervent meddling and in the ultimate tragedy. VMH was certainly very democratic for a royal of her times and Irene always struck me as an intelligent-enough pragmatist. Couple with the religious factor (and Irene would NOT have converted to Orthodoxy - see her reaction to Ella) and Alix's rather singular needy personality...I'd say almost anyone else would have been a 'better' Tsarina in retrospect. Marie of Edinburgh/Romania not included ;)
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Well at least Marie wouldn't have fallen for Rasputin. She also was a patriot and was good for Romania during ww1 unlike Alexandra.
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All reasonable and interesting points about these women as WIVES of the Tsar, but is there still a suggestion here that ANY wife of NII would have had the power, position, audience, influence etc to actually have affected the outcome of the Romanovs? NII would still have been who he was, and as we see today in politics, business, education, etc, no matter how many qualified and skilled people may be in place UNDER a totally incompetent leader or CEO, it VERY hard to have a positive result.
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Yes, I would agree with you absolutely on that point, I simply can't believe that it would have made a crucial difference if NII, being of such a character as he was and living in such circumstances as he did, had had the wisest of women as his wife! Which is not to say that Alexandra didn't make a bad situation worse.
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But Alexandra DID made a bad situation worse...Her reliance on Rasputin in government appointment made the situation worse when it was vital that stability in Russia was needed for Russia to fight the war. It also broke the solarity of the Imperial Family that Sasha and Minnie had maintained throught out their reign. >:(
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??? Solidarity that Sasha and Minnie had maintained? There wasn't any real solidarity in the family under Alexander III either. Many authors have commented on the strained relations with the Michailovichi. And the way Miechen started to spread unkind stories about Maria Feodorovna right after Alexander III's death shows that any semblance of solidarity from the Vladimirovichi under Alexander III was jus that, a semblance.
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True...Although under Alexander III, he kept them under check. The fact that Minnie was beloved by the public and didn't put a foot wrong automatically sidelined Vladimir and Michen. however under Nicky & Alicky, they openly rebelled. They were supported by those who were disatisfied with the meddling and unpopular Empress... :(
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sidelined Vladimir and Michen. They were supported by those who were disatisfied with the meddling and unpopular Empress... :(
...thus the Canaille
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Making a pretence of family solidarity or stability by keeping people 'in check' has never solved anything. In this case, it rather worked as a pressure cooker. The fact that the mere arrival on the scene of a young, shy and honest woman who stood by her principles and values sufficed to make the soap bubble of soldiarity burst, revealing dissension and opportunism in the Romanov family and making family members 'rebel' literally almost overnight once Alexander III was gone, only proves how unstable the situation really was under Alexander III and Maria Feodorovna.
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I agree with Helen completely; well put. And after years of in-fighting, what in the end destroyed the Romanovs and the nation was the war. whoever the czar's wife would have been would not have diverted this mistake, in fact, Alexandra should have been, as a German, able to help forge a friendship with Germany but she couldn't even keep on good terms with her cousin Willy..and expect her to influence an entire nation? Was never in the cards. Nor could it have been for anyone else, really. thanks!
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True enough. War seemed to be the common denominator and main ingredient in toppling many thrones besides Russia. After 1918, not many were left standing.
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Alicky was not a stable woman period...Irene had more sense than her. :(
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Yes, Irene was more sensible, stable, capable and used 'control' in more positive ways than her sister.
I would agree that had Nicky married Irene instead of Alix, Irene may have been able to engender a more positive public opinion of the monarchy and herself, perhaps. Surely, Minnie and her sister Alexandra in England were able to purposefully sow seeds of dislike about Germany and Germans which did affect public opinion in a negative way which likely had some effect on how willing the public ultimately was to accept war. Likewise, Irene as tsarina may have had some impact in a more positive direction, but what would that have been? If she took a more pro-russian people approach, that would not have averted the war and the end would have been what it was. If she took a pro-German alliance approach, it would have run smack up against her mother in law and ministers, and she would have been sidelined...again the war would have occurred regardless.
the war and its never ending misery did them in.
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I defantly think, it would have been better for Irene to be tsarina than Alix becuase she has more common sence than her and she would have put a much more positive impact for Russia. Alix's problem was that she could not get herself together. Sadly Alix realy did not have a good relationship with neither with the kaiser and the Russian court. It is true, that her relationship with Rasputin did make things more worse, many pesants starting protesting and blaming her for everything. Irene did'nt even like Rasputin.
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It seems to me that Russia needed a Tsaria in the mold of Dagmar. Russia needed a female figure to dwell on could be seen as helping the masses and at the same time leading society and the court.
The most qualified for this would have to be Marie of Edinburgh. Her tenure as Queen of Romania demonstrates her abilty as a consort/monarch/poltical helpmate.
TampaBay
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Sadly she was too closely related to be considered by the Russian Church. Baby Bee (Missy's sister) was barred from marrying the charming Misha. It would have saved the weak Misha from an unfortunate marriage. It was up to Ducky & Kyrill to defy both Tsar & Church to get married... ???
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It seems to me that Russia needed a Tsaria in the mold of Dagmar. Russia needed a female figure to dwell on could be seen as helping the masses and at the same time leading society and the court.
The most qualified for this would have to be Marie of Edinburgh. Her tenure as Queen of Romania demonstrates her abilty as a consort/monarch/poltical helpmate.
TampaBay
thanks TampaBay! I agree a "more qualified" wife for NII could have been Marie or someone like Minnie, but are you also saying a more qualified choice could have/would have averted the 1918 disaster? thanks!
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I do not think WWI could have been averted but I believe if Nicholas had a consort more in tune with constitutional monarchy than autocracy then the communists revolution could have been avoided by appointing the appropriate capable ministers, ruling in a constitutional/parlimentary manner and winning the confidence of the population at large.
The system had to change an NII lacked the ability to be the progenitor this change on his own.
TampaBay
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Hmmmm...Had Misha married Baby Bee. I think she would have persuaded him to hold the fort rather than abdicate. Just a thought ! ???
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Hmmmm...Had Misha married Baby Bee. I think she would have persuaded him to hold the fort rather than abdicate. Just a thought ! ???
Quite True! Grand Duchess Marie of Russia, Edingburgh & Saxe Coburg-Gotha would also have made an excellent Tsaria or Empress in her own right.
TampaBay
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Ah the mother-in-law...True she does have the heart of a Tsar ( certainly the back bone). :)
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I agree with Helen completely; well put. And after years of in-fighting, what in the end destroyed the Romanovs and the nation was the war. whoever the czar's wife would have been would not have diverted this mistake, in fact, Alexandra should have been, as a German, able to help forge a friendship with Germany but she couldn't even keep on good terms with her cousin Willy..and expect her to influence an entire nation? Was never in the cards. Nor could it have been for anyone else, really. thanks!
There was no 'Germany' then. There was Prussia - whose expansionist policies culminated in the 1866 war where those Principalities, Duchys etc who backed the losing side were made to suffer punitive and costly measures. Most notably the Grand Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt. Alix, unsurprisingly - disliked anything Prussian and her attitudes towards Willie were not soley personal.
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And I'm quite sure that the splendour and grand lavishments, pageantry and whatnot of the Tsarist court would have been of no interest whatsoever to a Marie of Edinburgh Tsaritsa. Absolutely she would have been far too busy tackling social issues and urging and supporting her husband towards democracy and a Duma, all backed up by well-chosen, trustworthy advisors and courtiers whose interests too were solely altrusistic and humanitarian. What a perfect place that would have been for someone just like her to put all of those lifelong and fervently held interests and priorities to work tirelessly to reform a system whose manifold problems were just waiting for someone with her education, outlook and passions. Not. ::)
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Anyway, back to Irene. I'd be interested to see if Ilana's work throws any more light on Irene's health as a child. I understand she was perceived as a bit fragile, though there were some conflicts over the issue of her being over-protected (QV as usual having a decisive input here...) - all in light of her subsequently to be found to be carrying hemophilia. Also because, following Rohl et al's wonderful work on British and Prussian and other related royals and the inherited illness of porphyria (see also The Madness of King George - the 'madness' here being the metabolic illness of porphyria which, casuing as it did severe physical and mental/emotional symptoms, was then a complete puzzle to contemporary medicine). Ever since reading this it made me wonder about Alix's persistent ill-health and the possibility that she may have inherited not just 1 but 2 faulty gene! So: any information on the health of the Hesse-Darmstadt girls is of great interest to me. The Rohl book btw is called Purple Secret and I cannot recommend it too highly to anyone who has not read it.
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I agree with Helen completely; well put. And after years of in-fighting, what in the end destroyed the Romanovs and the nation was the war. whoever the czar's wife would have been would not have diverted this mistake, in fact, Alexandra should have been, as a German, able to help forge a friendship with Germany but she couldn't even keep on good terms with her cousin Willy..and expect her to influence an entire nation? Was never in the cards. Nor could it have been for anyone else, really. thanks!
There was no 'Germany' then. There was Prussia - whose expansionist policies culminated in the 1866 war where those Principalities, Duchys etc who backed the losing side were made to suffer punitive and costly measures. Most notably the Grand Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt. Alix, unsurprisingly - disliked anything Prussian and her attitudes towards Willie were not soley personal.
Tdora, thanks for your insights, but you missed the point of discussion. No one was speaking about pre 1866; we were discussing Alexandra as wife of NII when he was czar and what or who could have improved or avoided the 1918 disasters.
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I think most agree that Irene would have been a more reasonable person than Alexandra. :(
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I would have thought Alix's attitudes towards Prussia would have been of considerable importance, especially given the dreadful press she had during the war questioning her loyalties - a not-so-subtle suggestion of possible treasonous attitudes...? When Nicholas went to Mogilev to oversee the war effort, Alix was defacto in charge of ensuring Tsarist policy and communication of wishes back in Petrograd - which played a considerable role in the eventual downfall both because of her influence in appointments and policy and because the Tsar himself could not be in 2 equally important places at once. I wanted to point out that her dislike of Prussia was not based simply upon personal relations or subjective feelings but that there was a sound reason for a Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt to have a negative view of Prussia and to perceive them having an expansionist aggressive agenda. It could be argued that despite such historical foundation, Alix was constitutionally incapable of adopting and maintaining a balanced perspective on anything, no matter where her loyalities and/or opinions may have had basis. Her character was just not suited to the requirements and pressures of the role of Tsarina - which is why we are speculating whether her sister (even given the same problems she would have brought such as hemophilia) would have the personal capacity to make a crucial difference to the outcome.
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Well...Irene had a different temperment than Alicky. The fact that she had 2 sons with Haemophelia made the comparison easier than with VMH or Ella... ???
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We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so but she had no children so we don't know. Victoria defantly did not have it. Irene would be more of a person to trust than Alexandra. Many think Alix was born in Germany, could not get herself together and the fact that she was friends with Rasputin she could'nt be trusted as much as Irene would be. If Irene was tsarina so much trouble would have been avioded like the 1918 murder of the Imperial Family. Nicholas II's problem was he was not autocratic enough. He was spoiled with everything all his life and yet he did not even know how to control or handle it. Rasputing have a total impact on the family. Therefore Alix dominated him, even in letters she gave him advice from Rasputin and Nicholas II followed it. I think Alexandra was listening to the wrong voice she should have advoided him. Because of that problems happened complaints from pesants blaming Alexandra for all of the trouble and the Russian government was bad and it was falling down. Thus, Irene I don't think she would have trust Rasputin.
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Alexandra was clearly incapable of ruling a major nation, but it still seems like romantic fantasy that Irene could have, as Nicky's wife, avoided the downfall of the Romanov's and avoided the devastation of Russia's WWI entanglement. given the true facts of the 20th century following the end of WWI, had Irene been such a savior, she would then have been arguably the most pivotal, important person of the century, if not greater. This is implausible. What occured from about 1905 onward was a massive lava flow of rebellion that no one in the position of wife of czar could have successfully averted, imo. had she or anyone else been able to, she would have superceded the diplomatic, political, social, and personal skills of all the major European leaders, ministers, politicians, and industricalists of the time. It doen's seem like a reasonable assumption.
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If Irene was tsarina so much trouble would have been avioded like the 1918 murder of the Imperial Family.
Hmm, fascinating. Did Irene tell you that?
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Not craved in stone but speculation I think. However it is based on the different temperments of the sisters. I think Irene may get on better with Minnie than Alicky. ???
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I believe Eddieboy was being sarastic and in this one situation, I see his point and agree with the historical spirit of his message. There is almost no way Irene would have been in control of powers and abilities to change what occurred. If she was such a person to be able to save the world from war and the romanovs from their executions, why didn't she accomplish much easier tasks where she was?
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If Irene was tsarina so much trouble would have been avioded like the 1918 murder of the Imperial Family.
Hmm, fascinating. Did Irene tell you that?
haha...sarcastic very silly. If Irene would have told me this it would have been 60 years ago. Anyway Irene of course everything is not going to happen perfectly there will be some problems but not the 1918 murder in my opinion.
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Indeed...Do remember we are all specuating about events long ago. I agree that Irene would not have had that Rasputin non-sense business... ::)
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haha...sarcastic very silly. If Irene would have told me this it would have been 60 years ago. Anyway Irene of course everything is not going to happen perfectly there will be some problems but not the 1918 murder in my opinion.
???
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Probable I think ? ???
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I agree with those who think that in the (in my opinion unlikely) event that Nicholas married a Hesse-Darmstadt bride other than Alix, that Irene would have made a better job of being Empress, but I also don't think that she could have stopped the revolution - Russia was just too battered to carry on the war and the infrastructure was too compromised by corruption and inefficiency which had nothing to do with inept wartime decisions at the top to stand firm against the forces of internal convulsion. If she couldn't have stopped the revolution, she couldn't have stopped the Bolshevik takeover, and it was the Bolsheviks who did away with as many of the Imperial family who they could get their hands on. They did it coldly and without any recourse to excuses about Rasputin. Ella had an excellent reputation as far as the public was aware, but it didn't stop her being killed. The Empress Marie had similarly had a good reputation with the public but she only managed to excape due to the British warship. So I think the Empress Irene would have been facing the firing squad just the same as her sister.
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haha...sarcastic very silly. If Irene would have told me this it would have been 60 years ago. Anyway Irene of course everything is not going to happen perfectly there will be some problems but not the 1918 murder in my opinion.
???
What are you talking about? Eric Your sarcasm has gone too far honestly if you don't understand what I am writting about it then don't say anything. Yes Irene defantly would not trust or be involved Rasputin Eric is right.
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Well...was I sacastic ? I just didn't get the point. Anyway sometimes people write things they did not mean or the tone it was written. A clarification always helps to reduce misunderstandings. :) Indeed the Imperial Family will have a better chance of escape with the cool head of Irene than the hysterical Alix. :)
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Oh Elizabath dear relax. Is one not allowed to seek clarification of what you are going on about?? Because personally I don't have a clue. To imply that Irene would have saved Imperial Russia from disaster does need to be backed up by reasons why IMO. Please don't go flying of your rocker.
:)
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Well...was I sacastic ? I just didn't get the point. Anyway sometimes people write things they did not mean or the tone it was written. A clarification always helps to reduce misunderstandings. :) Indeed the Imperial Family will have a better chance of escape with the cool head of Irene than the hysterical Alix. :)
No, Eric I was not talking about you. I was saying Eric was sarcastic. Your names confuse me.Oh Elizabath dear relax. Is one not allowed to seek clarification of what you are going on about?? Because personally I don't have a clue. To imply that Irene would have saved Imperial Russia from disaster does need to be backed up by reasons why IMO. Please don't go flying of your rocker.
:)
Oh don't worry becuase I am not. Anyway I am not in such a good mood and I am very tired. Your qouting my posts and saying sarcastic things though it realy annoys me it is very incrontrovertible or inconsolable. It realy makes me feel aserted into the miserable inconspictous, and dissipative feeling and way. Many areas I would expect to see gregarious apparently not in some cases. I will relax but not when I am reading what people write here is something I don't like. They always say to me where is your source, evidence or proof I am tired of them asking me that. I don't have to do all this to state an opinion or something I already know that should not be counted as luticrous or for sarcasm. I realy think Irene would have been more lyrical and less impute and shy than Alexandra.
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Sorry mistake I meant Eddie.
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My dear Elizabeth, it is common here to recieve cranky comments (as it is an open one). Just ignore them and you will be fine. ;)
Indeed...Irene got along with Vicky, so I cannot see her clashing with Minnie had she married Nicky... ::)
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We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so
Elizabeth - I think I understand what you are trying to explain generally in your recent posts but quote is just one example of your assertions that makes it difficult to know how to discuss the points you raise. So, here: "I realy don't think so.." - upon what do you base this opinion, for example? I'm sorry if you think you are being bashed about and I'm sorry that you are not feeling yourself but it is usually better not to try to have discussions when they seem to make you even more exhausted. That way, we have a better opportunity of understanding your thoughts and opinions rather than your temporary emotions. For my part, I am having increasing difficulty with your use of English vocabulary because I'm unclear as to whether you mean the precise definitions of certain adjectives (for example) because your grammar structure doesn't seem to support that level of vocabulary. What is your first language btw? Please please don't take this as a criticism, either personally or in any other way. I'm trying to offer some constructive help as I'm interested in what you are trying to say. So, I suggest that you delay writing until you are feel up to the task, and also try to simplify your terms while, at the same time, try also to avoid being so 'definite'-sounding. This should help avoid misunderstandings. Wishing you well....
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We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so
Elizabeth - I think I understand what you are trying to explain generally in your recent posts but quote is just one example of your assertions that makes it difficult to know how to discuss the points you raise. So, here: "I realy don't think so.." - upon what do you base this opinion, for example? I'm sorry if you think you are being bashed about and I'm sorry that you are not feeling yourself but it is usually better not to try to have discussions when they seem to make you even more exhausted. That way, we have a better opportunity of understanding your thoughts and opinions rather than your temporary emotions. For my part, I am having increasing difficulty with your use of English vocabulary because I'm unclear as to whether you mean the precise definitions of certain adjectives (for example) because your grammar structure doesn't seem to support that level of vocabulary. What is your first language btw? Please please don't take this as a criticism, either personally or in any other way. I'm trying to offer some constructive help as I'm interested in what you are trying to say. So, I suggest that you delay writing until you are feel up to the task, and also try to simplify your terms while, at the same time, try also to avoid being so 'definite'-sounding. This should help avoid misunderstandings. Wishing you well....
Yes. I `know so many people told me I` am not good with my English. In fact many on this forum had told me that. I am sick of it realy annoying. I don't know how to explain things in english it just would not make sense. I can't take it I am sick of people bothering and annoying me. I worn them before on this forum that my English is bad, they keep on saying that and I think they want to harass me. English is not a easy langauge to learn it took me many years to understand. Thanks for letting me know I do find it as help though but. You can help me if you want Tdora if you can try to explain it better as to what I mean. Thanks...
From.
Valerie
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I like aspects of all of the Hessian sisters. However, Irene did not have to prove herself in the way Alix had to. Irene's children were not nearly as significant dynastically, so she was able to cope with their hemophelia privately without an entire court sneering at her. It is comparing apples and oranges, two very different situations. Irene kept a low profile at the Prussian court and thus avoided criticism. There is no proof either way that she would have made an excellent empress.
IMHO, Minnie would have reacted to Irene as her daughter in law much in the way she did to Alix, or anyone else who married Nicky. No one was good enough for Minnie sons, not very different from Alix of Wales...This was recognized by their mother Queen Louise of Denmark.
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Well...Irene was known to be helpful while Alicky was patholigically shy. It was evident that even as children, the two sisters were different in sentiment. :)
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I too like aspects of all the Hessian sisters. Their common denominator was their desire to help others and emulating Princess Alice's own life when she came to Darmstadt. And IMO it is not comparable to say Irene would have been better suited to be Empress much less NII wife.
MF and AIII were vying for a dynastic marriage that never came to fruition. Had AIII lived, perhaps together AIII and MF would have come around and not have minded letting NII marry whom he wished. AIII agreed it seems because he knew he was dying. But being relatively young and newly widowed, MF was still in mourning and had to give her position to whomever NII married. Irene or not, the position of Empress was critical. The Russian people would have judged anyone harshly, I think, because they had loved MF and were charmed by her. The new Empress would have to fill that void left by MF. There really is no proof either way that Irene would have done a better job.
She was good at keeping low profile and dealt with her sons' hemophilia in her own way. But her role, a Bsquared said, was not as dynastically important nor were that of her sons. Keeping a low profile is not what being a Russian Empress was all about. As AF tried to do because of her innate shyness and the results of course speak for themselves.
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Not really...Alicky was shy that was true, but also that coupled with pride and mindset that she was always right. A kind of schoolmarmish type of character, which unlike the fun-loving Minnie and judged harshly. Do remember what Missy wrote in her bio. "although there is not a big gap with our ages, she made me feel that I haven't even grown up !." Alicky never leaned to listen and consider other view point but hers was the main problem... :(
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Well, AF problems are certainly discussed in her own threads. But in consideration of Irene, I think it was relevant that the point was made that she made a point to keep a low profile in the Prussian court. It doesn't appear she aspired to be anything more than what she was. IMO, she did display a certain stregnth that was something all her sisters had, in accepting anything that came her way. She performed what was expected of her as a Princess and a member of the Royal family in addition to having the burden of knowing that her sons were never far from danger or death, just as all the hemophiliac descendants of QV. She seemed to have the no-nonsense of VMH, the strength of character of Ella with the willingness to rise above her own problemes and help other just as AF did (as all the sisters did). Somehow she seems an amalgamation of all the traits displayed by her siblings.
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Yes...I doubt Irene would push herself forward into politics as Alicky did. Had Irene had the ambition, she could be a Meichen at the Kaiser's court (certainly her sister-in-law Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen dable in politics). however Irene prefer the home and did her duty. :)
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A Russian Empress seemed to have be expected to do more than stay quietly at home and do some charity work. Alix was criticized for this when she was newly Empress and starting her family. Irene was able to do this in Prussia because they were not the "top couple".
Nicky put her in charge of government when he went to the front, because he trusted no one else. Alix's ambition politically during those last years was for her husband and her son, not herself.
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Bsquared is corrrect. Alix had no polictical amibitiions at all; she was forced into some key roles in dire circumstances, but even then resented the tasks and avoided much other than quick knew-jerk decisions because she did not seem to want to delve into the depths of the issues.
Irene would very likely have been no more desirous or able to 'share the role' with NII. That simply was not the way an autocrat in an autocrat sysmtem operated. the Romanov household was not like the Clinton Whitehouse in that just by virtue of marriage, the leader's wife assumed substantial power. No way. While QV delagated much to her husband, that was very different in terms of real power that the monarchy had.
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During the Tsarevich's health crisis at the faimily's stay at the Polish hunting lodge at Spala in ?1912, Irene was one of the only guests privy to the situation. A recent biographer of AF (I read the book in the USA and I'm sorry I can't cite it cos I had to sell it to raise the fare back to Blighty though I'll try to look it up) noted how her calm and relaxed manner enabled her to effortlessly cope as the hostess with a lodge full of guests while, in the background, the Tsarina fled along corridors in desparate straits after the life of her son. Although Alix was grateful for Irene's consummate skills, it did not bring them visibly closer, so wary was Alix of having any hint of the family complaint suspected of her son.
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Thanks ! It confirms what thought about the sisters. Irene was a calming influence while Alicky went haywire when crisis arose. She was no help to Nicholas whom needed a cool head to consider the political situation in Russia.I doubt not that Alicky was not ambitious for herself, but for her son. She became more active once she gave birth to the heir. I think if she was not so opinionated she would have seen the merit of those who tried to warn her about the situation (especially about Rasputin). Instead she drove them away. :(
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I think no one has ever denied or disputed the claim that Irene was more in control of her emotional state of being than AF and Irene was also able to exude calm while AF probably not. This, however, does not indicate that Irene would have been personally able to avert the Romanov disaster. The downfall was far beyond the scope of any one person to affect, in fact, far beyond an entire government and international influence.
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Nobody is disputing that either, the problems of the dynasty goes way beyond Nicholas & Alexandra. However Irene would not have provided the enemies of the crown with the scandals cause by her blind faith in Rasputin or his opinion on political affairs. I think however had Irene been Tsarina, the Imperial family might (speculation of course) have survived the revolution and gone into exile like Alfonso & Ena. :(
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Nobody is disputing that either, the problems of the dynasty goes way beyond Nicholas & Alexandra. However Irene would not have provided the enemies of the crown with the scandals cause by her blind faith in Rasputin or his opinion on political affairs. I think however had Irene been Tsarina, the Imperial family might (speculation of course) have survived the revolution and gone into exile like Alfonso & Ena. :(
Eric, if "No one is disputing that..." regarding the absolute absurdity that Irene as empress would have averted the family's disaster, why then do you? You go on to say had she been empress they may have escaped! It seems you are talking in two different directions and makes your points quite confused.
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I think one of the resasons is the personal unpopularity of Alicky (due to the Rasputin and her unwanted foray in the government) which is major point of rally against the monarchy. You also have to remember that while Alfonso XIII was unpopular, Ena was very popular among the population. It is something Alicky never had....As I said that is speculation only. However due to that fact, I think the family would probably have a better chance of survival into exile.
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Certainly the sisters were different in that respect. They had different views because of their vastly different circumstances.
Irene seemed to possess a much different view of her life because her life WAS different. And sitting on any throne would probably affected her as well, in her own way.
Though all the sisters were devout and pious women, It seems that Irene didn't go overboard as her sister did when it came to the hemophilia of her sons. That is to say, it seemed to be a very personal situation for her and she dealt with it - once again - in her own way.
Ella and AF dealt with their pain through thorough immersion Russian Orthodox Faith, whereas IMO, I don't find that with their Lutheran siblings. Though certainly religious. Irene seemed to have the no-nonsense trait the VMH had as well. Nothing dreamy, only stark reality.
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True...But Ella did not went overboard too though religious herself. I have to reconfirm that although their circumstances are different, Alicky and Irene are different people although grew up in the same envoirment in Darmstadt and visits to Windsor/Osborne. I have no doubt if we put Irene in Alicky's situation, she wouldn't have reacted as her sister did. Likewise if you put Alicky in Prussia, she would have problems with both Willy and Vicky... ???
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the mixing and matching of spouses of heads of state is, perhaps, an interesting guessing game on their theoretical affects, but the affects would have very likely never changed the course of history in a large way, only some immediate family matters, perhaps. The only way, imo, that the Romanovs would have been in a position to avert disaster would be for Nicholas himself to have been a different person AND that person would have had to had a global, modern view of Russia juxtaposed on its neighbors to both the west and east; Alix (or any other wife) was not the pivotal one.
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Some people think that Alexandra was the pivotal one though- certainly there were times when her actions, although not intentionally, did pave the way to the Revolution. Certainly, had not Nicholas had a hemophiliac son, things would have been different. But, Irene carried hemophilia too. I am not particularly interested in her, but she seems the quiet one out of the Hesse sisters ( or children) for that matter. All of her siblings stood out, and she doesn't seem to have as much.
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Irene would have handled the situation with less drama if she was in Alicky's shoes there is no doubt due to her personality. :)
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Some people think that Alexandra was the pivotal one though- certainly there were times when her actions, although not intentionally, did pave the way to the Revolution. Certainly, had not Nicholas had a hemophiliac son, things would have been different. But, Irene carried hemophilia too. I am not particularly interested in her, but she seems the quiet one out of the Hesse sisters ( or children) for that matter. All of her siblings stood out, and she doesn't seem to have as much.
Well, AF probably conducted much of her life differently given the hemophilia, but road to revolution was being paved way before Alexei was even born. Like many of the royals and affluent industrials in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, AF and NII were oblivious to the reality of the rise of peasantry striving to middle class status and the title wave overwhelmed them and everyone around them. Alexandra was like Sophie MacDonald in The Razor's Edge...top role but very unable to affect her own destiny.
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Indeed...The revolution would come at any case with the weak Nicholas II on top. However the family's grissly destiny may have been avoided. ???
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Some people think that Alexandra was the pivotal one though- certainly there were times when her actions, although not intentionally, did pave the way to the Revolution. Certainly, had not Nicholas had a hemophiliac son, things would have been different. But, Irene carried hemophilia too. I am not particularly interested in her, but she seems the quiet one out of the Hesse sisters ( or children) for that matter. All of her siblings stood out, and she doesn't seem to have as much.
She does seem to be the "quiet" one out of her siblings. Was her husband regarded this way as well?
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Yes, in fact, Vicky thought Henry was a bit deficient in the brains category and, I think, Henry seems to have been put down as a child (second son, not too bright, etc) and this resulted in a low-keyed demeanor as an adult. That said, he was very popular, somewhat witty, and made a great impression during his trip to the U.S. in early 1900s.
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Irene and Henry were known to their families as "The Very Amiables" - certainly they received many visits over the years at Hemmelmark and it seems it was a pleasant and cosy domestic set-up they had. Vicky had pulled no punches in here descriptions of her children and their myriad faults in her eyes. Henry really seems to have copped it a lot in his childhood: he was described repeatedly as ugly and slow at his lessons, and later I think the partiality shown to Waldemar and Siegfried made comparisons in which the dissing just went on ! Irene too had a ready-made situation for self-esteem problems, with her beautiful sisters being lauded and courted from all quarters. Their marriage was planned almost a conspiracy between them and they proved that despite such unpromising beginnings, their qualities became all the more evident and even necessary to their more flamboyant but disaster-prone siblings over the years. Their marriage was solid and happy: Irene was quite perfect for Henry and he blossomed in marriage. She did much in their early years together to reconcile him with Vicky, who both liked and respected her daughter-in-law and was especially delighted that Irene thoughtfully made sure her children had the opportunity to get close to their grandmother when she was so tragically estranged from those of Wilhelm and the (in this situation) appalling-behaved Dona.
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Yes, in fact, Vicky thought Henry was a bit deficient in the brains category and, I think, Henry seems to have been put down as a child (second son, not too bright, etc) and this resulted in a low-keyed demeanor as an adult. That said, he was very popular, somewhat witty, and made a great impression during his trip to the U.S. in early 1900s.
Unlike his brother, Henry received almost consistently positive press (with a few exceptions) in the various international papers and magazines. Reading about him in these materials is much different from the image presented by the letters of his mother. He seems to have been friendly with his cousin, George V, visiting England up until practically the outbreak of the war (as shown during the infamous discussion between the two after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand) sharing similar temperaments, love of the navy and, like George and Nicholas, a rather distinct resemblance.
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I think had Henry been Kaiser, the war could have been avoided. Henry was not as ingrained in the doctrines of Bismark, and generally enjoyed good press in England. Siimilarly, Irene would have made a good Kaiserin. ;)
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According to some reports (and it's always hard to judge Fritz on his own since he's so often seen through Vicky's eyes or in her shadow) Henry was his favorite and the wedding to Irene was something that gave him great joy, and probably relief (seeing his son settled with someone more like to treat Vicky well when he was gone than Dona would) in his final days. He supposedly clasped Henry long and hard after the wedding ceremony and had made a point of decking himself out in full regalia, and walking into the chapel, despite his incredible weakness at this point. :(
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Indeed...the point that Henry is marrying Alice's daughter was a comfort to him (he was right and Irene did inherited some of her mother's calming qualities). :)
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It's hard to think of a more moving situation for a marriage ceremony than that of Henry and Irene. And that of the dreadful anxieties for his wife and heir (and nation !) that Fritz feared would descend after his death, that this marriage gave him some peace and happiness - the story of his blessing to his son was very poignant. I think Irene's management of the more obstreperous and difficult Hohenzollern elements was both shrewd and compassionate (I mean - Charley, Dona as sisters-in-law - aaaagh) and I wonder if Wilhelm eventually became a little wary of his maybe-too-adept brother's diplomacies!
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True, but I am sure Irene got along well with the trio ( Margaret, Sophie and Victoria)... ;)
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The impression I got was that Vicky and Fritz's younger daughters were keen to leave the stifling and quarrelsome Prussian court behind, whereas Irene took it on as much as was needed within her role and marriage. With her awareness and involvement in the Russian secret family tragedies as well, not to mention her own burdens and grief, I think she took on as much as anyone could with family antics and issues and worries - if not more. It makes some of the contemporaneous constitutional spats look minor by stress-comparison!
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Yes...I do wonder if she got along with Charley the brat ? ???
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Irene & Henry had a huge spat with Charlotte & Bernhard when they sided with Feo over some issue--choice of husband? (It was in Purple Secret) They even took Feo in when Charlottte threw her out and Henry wrote quite a scathing letter to her.
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I guess it was Charlotte who stirred the pot this time. However I did see photos taken around Irene's engagement (with Alicky & Henry) that indicated a better realtionship. ???
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Empress Friedrich placing ' Die BrautKrone" on Irene's head, Charlottenburg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/323/1888brautkronead5.jpg
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Was this from the ILNS ?
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Do you mean the Illustrated London News?
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Was this from the ILNS ?
Yes, I believe it is from the Illustrated London News
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yeah. I heard irene and henry once two girls adopt of a man, who lost its wife and no more time for her had. and it was a very good friend of henry.
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What do you mean ? Is English your first or second language ?
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no im from german, my english is not good sorry
i mean that irene and henry wanted once adopt tow girls from a friend, becase he hasnt mcuh time for the girls. (the mother of teh gitls was died) i has read that from womehere,
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No worries.
Didn't hear that story before...
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wel what ever, we coudl say that Irene and Henry was in love, has tow sons and was always "Lovly" or kindly
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Irene and Henry did not adopt any children. They had three sons, not two. One son, Heinrich, died as a child. Princess Irene did adopt her granddaughter, Princess Barbara of Prussia, for inheritance purposes.
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yeah that right, but they wanted adopt two girls form a friiend, but a aunt from teh girls has take the girls . so Irene and Henry wanted adopt, but they hasnt.
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No, you are mistaken ... royalty did not adopt children during this time period ... and Irene and Henry never tried to adopt girls ....
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ok sorry, than im wrong.. i didnt wanted made a stupied roumous.
but its true that Henry has rage accumulations ? poor Irene,
somewhere i has a artikel from Henry , where he is on the trip to China. i cant take the lovly scenes out and can coped to here,.
but i will made is soon.
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here it was in german but i has made it in english langue.
"Prince Heinrich of Prussia and turned the view away not from a herrschaftlichen carriage, which drove at the Soldatenspalier along on the flax path there. That was the car of the princess Heinrich, who gave the high husband as to escort. On years outside it will be separate from the loved husband, and the Thränen in its eyes, which the high woman wipes now and then secretly away, seemed to want to ask the sky whether and when it will see the husband again?
From Colombo the prince admiral sent the first gifts to the wife and its both sons into the homeland. The princess received a tasteful selection of sapphires and Runbinen, which came from the island and ornate were verabeitet to bracelets. The sons of the prince got interesting moon stones, a whole collection cat eyes, from bamboo, from a skillful Singhalesen twisted ship and similar toys sent. Often the prince of its high wife and its sons had thought and was high-pleased from there, when he received the message that princess Heinrich of Prussia on special desire of its imperial brother, who wanted to prepare him thereby a special joy on the way for the far east was. On German ground, in the new German possession, the high pair met and now followed daily of the luck and the joy after so long months of the separation.
The colony had large preparations to receives the high woman met, a large Festessen took place, Reunions, trips in the country and to the hunt was undertaken, and the social life began to develop since also the ladies of several officers abkommandierter to China had accompanied the princess and now as German housewives worked. But not for a long time the beautiful days of happy gathering lasted; Princess Irene longed herself back to her children, while prince Heinrich had to still stay, because his mission was not fulfilled yet and new journeys to the ports of Eastern Asia were approaching."
i has take the lovly scens out.
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There was a colombo is Asia ?
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Hi,
There is a Colombo in Sri Lanka, formerly Ceylon. It's the capitol city.
Larry
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It make sense that Henry got gems for Irene. Wonder what setting it end up in...
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yeah he was in Asia and a jear later came he home to her family. He has a very long trip in asia. yeah he was from 1898-1900 there.
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There was a newspaper article which mentioned that Irene was the first Western royal princess to visit China.
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There's even a book about Prince Heinrich's stay in Southeast Asia: "Prinz Heinrich in Kiautschau" by Conrad Fischer-Sallstein.
For the full text see http://www.jadu.de/jaduland/kolonien/asien/kiautschou/pheinrich/phostasien.html (http://www.jadu.de/jaduland/kolonien/asien/kiautschou/pheinrich/phostasien.html) and its subpages.
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yeah thanks.
i wanted ask again, im sorry but i know that every married couple has fights. Irene and Henry too, its true that he has rage accumulations ?? poor Irene, i think she has stress enough with her son waldemar who has the illness, and mabe she was still sad, about her youngest son Junor Henry. but i think Irene and henry was happy together and has help each other about the illnes from waldemar and the death of the little henry.
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Well I think she was pretty mean to her son when she cut him and his son out of her will...
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yeah i think too.
somewhere has Alice(Irenes mother) wrote to her mother that Irene is a "Ugly child". well we know that she was snot so pretty like her other sisters, but i think she has something that has tightened henry.
Irene was the third child, she was between of this clever victoria,beautiull Ella, and this little shy pretty Alix. i think Vicky, Ella, and alix has more candidate to marry than Irene.
but irene was strong enough to ignore that and fell in love with Henry.
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She was actually quite amiable to her cousins and in-laws.
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yeah but her figure was not like ellas and alixs, she was a lit bit like victoria, a lit bit stronger. but where she was older than she was thin.
im sure that irene and alix has fight sometimes, cause they has share a room like ella and vicky. But i think irene has given way while she a fight with alix. or ??
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Alicky was more stubborn than Irene, who was more of a busybody.
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do you mean that Irene was a busybody or Alix.
Irene and Alix was closer to each other becuase of their sons.
Was Louis (father of VEIA: vicky, Ella, irene and alix.) agreed with the Marrige of his daugthers ? i knew that Louis didnt wanted that victoria marry Louis of battenberg,.
was he aggred with the marrige of Irene and Henry ? im sure he has love his daugther.
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Alicky was the stubborn one and Irene the busybody...
I don't think Ludwig IV of Hesse was against his daughter marring Louis of Battenberg. They are cousins anyway and he knew the family well.
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why was Irene Busybody... ??? ist confused me.
but here in wikipedia of victoriaof hesse stand:
"Victoria married Prince Louis on 30 April 1884 at Darmstadt. Her father did not approve of the match; in his view Prince Louis had little money, and would deprive him of his daughter's company, as the couple would naturally live abroad in Britain. However, Victoria was of an independent mind and took little notice of her father's displeasure"
but that thaht he knew the family well is right.
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Wikipedia is not a good source for information. Anyone can write whatever they want to a Wikipedia entry. There are several good books -such as The Mountbattens by Richard Hough - about the family.
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ok thanks but i always thought that wikibedia is the best lexikon of all.
but why was Irene was a busybody ?? ok nobody is perfect and irene has of coruse a bad side but that she can be so like a busybody , i didnt thougth that .
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I write a Wikipedia entry about you and make up everything. This is not to say that there may be some good entries written by actual scholars ...but as an academic librarian, I can tell you - AVOID IT ... and start reading some books ...
ok thanks but i always thought that wikibedia is the best lexikon of all.
but why was Irene was a busybody ?? ok nobody is perfect and irene has of coruse a bad side but that she can be so like a busybody , i didnt thougth that .
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True. Although even serious books now list Wikipedia as sources...
Irene did butt herself into situations that she was not needed. According to Maria Paulovna (the younger), when she had second thoughts about Wilhelm of Sweden and wished to tell "Aunt Ella" about it. But Irene told her to shelve it as the news would kill Ella (if Serge's death did not kill Ella, I doubt pretty much that piece of news would). It was not Irene's place to advice Maria on anything...Later when Maria told Ella about that, she was surprised that Ella did not know about the incident and told her that it would have been alright. Ella most likely remember QV and Augusta's hope of her either marry Willy or Fritz of Baden. She chose Serge instead...
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Princess Irene and Prince Henry with Mossy and some of her family, including Philip & Mafalda, Richard, Prince Wolfgang and his wife the former Princess Marie of Baden
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/Untitled-1hessecopy.jpg)
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thanks for the pic
but ist really strange to see who is who , is the first woman who sit on the chair irene ? and the man behind her Henry ?
its seems so.
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The women are Irene, Mafalda, Mossy, Marie Alexandra (Princess Wolfgang)
The men are unknown, Prince Christopher, Prince Henry, Prince Philip, Prince Frederick Charles (Fischy), Prince Richard, Prince Wolfgang.
The men stand behind their respective wives.
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ok thanks
who know about the hobbys about Irene?
i know that ella loves Music and Art, like Ernie and Alix
victoria i think she love ARt and science
in many pics i saw that she has a book in her hand, i think she has love to read.
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Was the photo from a newspaper ? IJN maybe ? ???
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Newspaper.
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ok thanks
who know about the hobbys about Irene?
i know that ella loves Music and Art, like Ernie and Alix
victoria i think she love ARt and science
in many pics i saw that she has a book in her hand, i think she has love to read.
I wouldn't know about any certain hobbies, that would be interesting to find out.
I've actually found Irene to be plain in looks, but I think in her earlier years she looked cute and sometimes very pretty, too, although she seemed to have grown dramatically thin in old age. She does seem to have been a bit of a "busy-body" at times, but I don't think she had bad intentions. She seemed enigmatic but also friendly, emotional and supportive.
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Yeah i think too, tha only not nice think, was in the time where she fell in Love with Henry, and her QV didnt know about the match. But i can understand why Irene hasnt told it to her Grandmother, Cause she know that QV never wanted that they will marry, she would force Irene to marry a another man.
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I don't know why Irene never told her grandmother; she only found out that there was a courtship when they had become engaged, which Queen Victoria really disliked as she would have liked to find out earlier. But, I don't think that Queen Victoria would have ever actually forced one of her granddaughters to marry a certain someone if they didn't want to.
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But we know that QV has force Ernie and Victoria Melitta,to marry. But about her Granddaugthers she has never force them.
QV just didnt wanted that one of her Hesse-Granddaugthers will marry someone of Russia. But Alix and Ella has done that. QV Knew that something terrrible will happen in Russia.
QV was happy that Irene and Victoria hasnt married one of Russia.But with Henry she wasnt very happy...
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Well...QV was miffed that Missy married into Romania and dumped poor Georgie. She made sure that Ernie got Ducky. Marie Coburg relented because her daughter was NOT marrying into England but to nearby Hesse. Irene 's engagement was low key, but Vicky wasn't asked in this instance. She opposed Ella on health grounds and end up with "the cow from Holstein" who was unkind to her at every turn. She was perhaps glad that Alice's daughter was to marry Henry, her troublesome son...
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But in the information aout Irene and Henry, that Henry was a good Husband and Father and he was very much niecer than in his childhood. i dont know why Irene feel in Love with henry, or why henry love Irene, mabe she was so quite and lovly.
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Yet...He was not a model son to Fritz & Vicky. Henry was not as screwed up as Willy, but did have issues with Vicky. However after the marriage, Vicky noted that Henry was nicer to her and credit Irene's influence... ;)
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Yeah she has change him to a good man. Irene and Henry was happy married, althought they has two ill boys, but its hanst kill the Love between Irene and Henry. they were aleays faithful to each other.
But somewhere i has read that Ella has said that Henry has always flirt with other womans or ? or something about that Henry has flirt.
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Well...I think he may be a flirt, but I don't think Henry strayed. Like his grandfather Wilhelm I, he was always ready to indulge a pretty face (his favourites were Alexandra of Wales and Elisabeth of Austria)... ;)
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hmm but something inside of him wanted Irene and not the other womans. i Think Henry was Irenes firtst love. But i dont know if irene was the first love of Henry. im sure he has few womans before His wife.
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Not much been heard about that, but like Louis of Battenberg (another sailor prince) he may have his adventures overseas before marriage. After that I doubted that.
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yeah i think too Louis of Battenberg was a faithfull Hsuaband to his wife and he has loved her. Im sure the Henry has "ladys" before his Marrige.
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I doubt though he can top his cousin Louis Battenberg by bedding gthe lovely Lily Langtry (and had a daughter with him). :D
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hmmm mabe. But i thought Louis knew Henry since the Wedding of Henry and Irene. Cause he was with VHM and the children on Irene and Henrys wedding in 1888
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They knew of each other's existance since The Battenbergs were very close to the Russian Imperial Family...
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i thhink the realtionship of the Louis with Henry, Sergej, Nicky and Ernie was very nice and friendly. i think they were friends, like a close family of course with their Wifes.
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Yes...especially Nicky and Henry since both have sick sons...I think Irene was a comfort to Alicky...They were in the same boat. :(
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but someoher i has read in our forum that that someone has wrote that Nicky and henry was friendly to each other, but not very close like nicky and Ernie.
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Well...Nicky was friendly to most people, but I think Henry understood what Nicky and Alicky went through than Ernie. Although it was at Ernie's wedding (to Ducky that is) that Nicky finally won Alicky over...
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yeah mabe. but nicky and Ernie was close friends. and i think Henry with louis, cause they has share their Passion : the sea"
what new for me is that Sigismund has marry on the 11.th July, ist the birthday of his Mother Irene.
and Waldemar has marrys on the 13.th August, on the birthday of his father Henry.
Mabe they wanted made a surprise to their Parents
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I agree that Irene had some aspects of sneakiness in her charecter... ;)
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Mabe ist the idea of the Sons of Irene and Henry . Irene was not perfect like all.
But her relatives in Germany and England, loved her and henry. And the townspeople of Kiel, loved the pair too.
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Generally speaking Irene was not a bad person, nor was she motivated by malice in her dealing like her sister-in-law Charlotte. She was just a busybody that wanted to get into the action (like she was the first to visit Anna Anderson...).
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i knew that her sister-in law Charlotte was not a good mother, she has a daugther and has ignore her. Henry and Irene was on the side of their Niece. Henry has a fight with his sister charlotte, and Irene has just supported her husband.
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I know "Charley the brat" was not a popular member of the Hohenzollern Family. However in Darmstadt I saw some nice photos of Irene taken with her cousin and in-law. They were dated around the time of the Wedding (Irene & Henry's) and both looked happy and relaxed...
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ah ok, but i think their relationship, was broken, where charlotte has married and has ignore her daugther.
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Charlotte was a selfish woman who lived intrigue, while Irene just listens to gossip, not in the same league...
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With all due respect, the perpetual posts between Eric Lowe and Russka Princess make painful reading. It's ruined the thread.
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hmm Irene and Henry was good Parents, and lovly, although Irene was a busy-body.
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With all due respect, the perpetual posts between Eric Lowe and Russka Princess make painful reading. It's ruined the thread.
Perhaps Eric Lowe and Russka Princess could be given their own thread. ;)
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why ? ^^ we can speak with all.
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What surprises me, is why Waldemar von preussen (the Oldest son of Irene and Henry) children never had. Though he was married, however none had kinder.
Why? is it not because he his illness to his children wanted to transmit, or could his woman get no children? does somebody know about that give?
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Could be. Why is a complicated question asit involved two person and one could be sterile.
Indeed. His cousin Rupert, son of Alice of Athlone had the dieces through his mother, although it was Alice's father Leopold, who was the sufferer....
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She looked like a deb in her first low cut dress showing bosom and long arms. Very different from the dark nun-like dresses Alicky wore in daytime.
Showing bosom? Dark nun-like dresses? There is no need for such sexist remarks.
And if you would take a look at the pictures of Alix from the 1880s and early 1890s, before her father's death, you might notice that many of Alix's daytime dresses were not of darker colours than those of her sisters during the daytime and were not higher-necked than those of her sisters before they were out.
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Me ? A Sexist ? No I am far from one. Please no name calling please.
The clothes Alicky preferred were severe in colour and design if you compare with the Wales...
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Me ? A Sexist ? No I am far from one. Please no name calling please.
Name calling? Not at all! 'Sexist' is simply how your remark came across.
As you know, Alix often wore light colours in summer - not at all severe in colour, unless you think she should have worn white or off white dresses all the year round. There were a couple of years in which she seems to have perferred dresses and jackets without frills or ruffles. I think she looked fine and stylish in them. It may not be your taste, but nuns did not dress like that, as you know perfectly well.
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I would be very (!) interested in finding out how Eric is able to know the actual color of a dress the Empress wore?. Even if in those days there were b/w photographs only.
But to return to our topic: I think a photo of Princess Alix and Ludwig Battenberg - taken on Feb 21st 1887 on occ. of the Renaissance ball - has been posted somewhere here. If I find it I'll re-post it so as you can see the the dress she wore is different from the one in 1888
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Thanks ! You answered my question. The ball in 1887 was also are renssiance theme ball. It is different from her "coming out" or debut ball" where she wore the white dress. Indeed I think it would make a difference to see it.
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For darling Eric: the first photo shows Princess Alix and her brother in law Ludwig Prince of Battenberg on Feb 21st 1887 on occasion of the Grand Ducal Hessian Renaissance ball in the Residential Palace - her first public ball.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Alexandra/Alix4.jpg)
and here is one taken in the Summer 1888 - the ball especially for her. You can clearly see the differnece of the dresses.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff260/helenintroy/EllaandhersisterAlix.jpg)
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I think we misunderstood each other. I am talking about Alicky's "coming out ball", and you are talking about the first ball she attended. In other times, the coming out ball usually comes first. Alicky's three elder daughters had "coming out balls" before other balls. The US and UK also had its Debuntant balls.
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The second photo is actually from her coming out ball. The year before she was allowed to attend because of the engagement of her elder sister Princess Irene. An exeption - you see.
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Indeed. Poor Alicky losing her sister to Berlin ! Would love to know what feels about the change. Did she love being the only undisputed first lady of Darmstadt or sad that she would be alone now all her sisters are now married.
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i think she wasnt alone to be still in darmstadt alone with her brother. But i think she has loved her three sisters, and they has visit ech other before alix has married . In the time where the father of alix was died, victoria and irene came right now to darmstadt to comfort her and ernie. Ella coulnt come, why i dont know.
Irene and alix was close to each other, cuase they has sons who has the same illlnes and the two girls ahs shared the same roomlike ella and vicky.
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More complicated between Ella and Ludwig, he was hard on her when she converted and so was Irene. Only VMH openly supported her.
Yes Irene & Alicky clincked on that level of sick children.
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Why ? i thought ernie and ella was very close to ech other, and i thought ella with irene too.
or do you mean the father of the girls ?
yeah victoria was very close to ella, although they has argumenst, cause vicky has her own regulate and ella didnt like that
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Yes I refer to the father as Ludwig (QV also called him that) while the brother as Ernie. He wrote Ella a hard letter when she converted and I think Irene did so too...
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Oh yeah, i has read somewhere that Irene has very much cried, couse ella has change her religion.
Ella has wrote a letter to her father, that she is sorry that she has done that, but she think it is the right thing.
But has victoria change her religio? i dont think, only alix and ella has that .
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Yes...Only Ella & Alicky.
Ludwig was against Alicky marrying Nicky for religious reasons. Had he lived longer, Alicky might not have married Nicky. His death cleared her way to become Empress of Russia.
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hmm if alicky and nicky couldnt married, becuase of ludwig, than their love wiould be bgigger and stronger. I think they would all do, to be toegther.
i think Ludwig didnt liked to see , how his Girls marry and travel away from the home. He was against, the marrige of Victoria, Ella, and mabe Alix. Btu irene i dont know.
he said to his daugther that Louis of battenberg wanted just marry victoria, cause she has money. But she didnt belived that.
was ludwig against the love from henry and Irene ?
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I don't think so. The Hohenzollerns were Protestant and rich, and Ludwig did get along with Fritz...
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Than he was glad that his Daugther Irene married Henry of prussia.
he has just problems with Ella, victoria and mabe Alix.
i dont know why such a handsome and nice man like Henry has fell in love with such quite Woman like Irene.?? ok they knew ech other said their childhood.
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He was not against it that is for sure.
Indeed they knew each other since childhood, when their mothers holiday togather.
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yeah
But where the little henry (son of irene and henry) was died, it was a really shock or irene and henry. But im sure he has comfort her. and i think they has visit the burial of their little boy. Or???
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That is quite private and unless someone uncovers new info on the couple. We do not know for sure...
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hmm
but i think they has do that . im sure they has arguments like vicky and louis about l Lili langrty.
im sure irene was sometimes jealous if Womanns has lrt with henry. Ella wrote once, that henry flirt to much.
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Do get the book on VMH "The Four Graces". It will deal with the Lilllie Langtry thing in full detail.
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hmm
but i think they has do that . im sure they has arguments like vicky and louis about l Lili langrty.
im sure irene was sometimes jealous if Womanns has lrt with henry. Ella wrote once, that henry flirt to much.
Does anybody know about Henry flirting too much with other women?
As far as I know "Hessian Tapestry" is the only book dealing with Irene, Henry and their relationship and I cannot remember that David Duff does mention anything about that or relationships with other women.
But who knows... Henry had been a sailor and probably had "a girl in every port"? I have difficulties believing that.
Regards,
Gabriella.
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Eric
Is "The Four Graces" now available?
Allan Raymond
Do get the book on VMH "The Four Graces". It will deal with the Lilllie Langtry thing in full detail.
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Hi Alan!!
No, it's not available yet, but I can say with authority that it will be available this fall!!!!
Ilana
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Ilana
Does that mean I can have it signed at the RD weekend in the Spring?
Allan Raymond
Hi Alan!!
No, it's not available yet, but I can say with authority that it will be available this fall!!!!
Ilana
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Lets ask Arturo that question since he is the publisher...
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Lets ask Arturo that question since he is the publisher...
Why on earth would we dismiss what the author herself has told us? Ilana as the author certainly would know - if the question you're referring to is when it's coming out.
If you're talking about RD, since Ilana normally goes, she, and not Arturo would determine if she's going to be there to personally sign someone's copy or not.
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No I know Ilana well and I doubt she would be upset over my comments.
Many a times the publisher controls the date of the publication. For example MacIntosh 's book on the Oldenburgs took 4 years before publication.
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Eric
Surely there is no need to ask Arturo the question. If what Ilana indicated is not quite correct then Arturo would respond accordingly as a member of the Forum.
If Ilana quotes with authority that is good enough for me.
Allan Raymond
No I know Ilana well and I doubt she would be upset over my comments.
Many a times the publisher controls the date of the publication. For example MacIntosh 's book on the Oldenburgs took 4 years before publication.
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Well I hope it would be ready as quite a lot of us fans have been waiting for quite awhile.
Looking forward to it anyway !
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Eric
Surely there is no need to ask Arturo the question. If what Ilana indicated is not quite correct then Arturo would respond accordingly as a member of the Forum.
If Ilana quotes with authority that is good enough for me.
Allan Raymond
No I know Ilana well and I doubt she would be upset over my comments.
Many a times the publisher controls the date of the publication. For example MacIntosh 's book on the Oldenburgs took 4 years before publication.
Thank you Allan. My feelings exactky. If someone really knows Ilana, they would know she would not speak without being sure, and Lowe was dismissing what she said.
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Alan,
I should be pleased to sign a copy for you!!!!
Hugs,
Ilana
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I wonder about what pics would appear. A lot of Photos of the Hesse sisters had been published before. I guess the content is the important thing here...
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Irene and Henri:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/IreneofHessewithHenry1.jpg)(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/IreneofHessewithhusbandHeinrichofPr.jpg)
Irene:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/Irene-11.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/IreneofHessesitting1.jpg)
Irene and Family:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/IreneandFamily1.jpg)
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the pics are so lovly, the second pic is so romantic, they seems happy there. Hnery have bad fingers, he hold her on her waist. hehe Well they are in love.
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It is true that this picture is very beautiful
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Irene:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/IreneofHesseinfancydress1.jpg)
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Yes that picture looks spontanious. ;)
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http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/42312/2540655920060065525S425x425Q85.jpg
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It sold for a few hundred dollars on ebay about 3 years ago.
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This particular seller sold about 10 over the course of a few auctions--and that was just of Irene. He had many other of QV's family, most of them signed. I was lucky enough to get 3 of Irene and some others. Of course, my hubby wasn't too happy. :-X
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I think I remember that particular auction... there was even one of Alexandra Feodorovna but it was - strange enough - signed ALICE of Hesse. It was definitely her handwriting...
I bought two toddler photos of Princesses Ella and Irene as well as several signed postcards of Irene from him. A dummy to give away those treasures for such low prices...
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She was Princess Alice of Hesse named after her mother. She only became Alexandra after her marriage.
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She was Princess Alice of Hesse named after her mother. She only became Alexandra after her marriage.
True, her real name was Alice, but she was called "Alix" from an early age--her mother said they called her that because the Germans mispronounced "Alice." I have seen photos of her signed "Alix" but one signed "Alice" must be quite rare.
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No comment for the Empress's name anymore. If there are really people who still think that her correct name was "Alice" I wonder: what the hell are you doing here? You should READ (!)
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It was England that she was sometimes called Alice--the Court Circular and postcards often referred to her as such. Alice did intend for her to be named after herself, as indicated in her letters, but her name was Alix--the closest she could get based on the German pronunciation.
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Yes. Thanks. I think within her English cousins she think of herself as "Alice" and that is why she signed it as such. You are correct. Alix was named after Alice, who claimed the Germans murdered her name (found in her letters).
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Does anyone have photos of Prince Henry in childhood? I looked at this whole entire thread and I haven't come across one. I didn't post at the Having Fun section because a lot of posters doesn't go there. Thank you.
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Does anyone have photos of Prince Henry in childhood? I looked at this whole entire thread and I haven't come across one. I didn't post at the Having Fun section because a lot of posters doesn't go there. Thank you.
Have you seen Heinrich in the group photos with his parents and siblings?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/PrincessCharlotte_brothersWilhelmHe.jpg)
With Wilhelm and Charlotte (Heinrich is the youngest one)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/EmperorFriedrichIII_family_1865-.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/cdvprince-1212001324-17015.jpg)
In 1865 with parents and siblings
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/cdvprince-1221681013-18846.jpg)
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Svetabel thanks for the last pic of Vicky and Fritz with Charlotte Wilhelm and Heinrich..ive been trying to find a clear version of that picture everywhere!
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Thank you very much Svetabel!!!!! I appreciate it so much. On the first pic that you posted, how come the older boy (not sure if it's Wilhelm) is wearing a Russian outfit?
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On the first pic that you posted, how come the older boy (not sure if it's Wilhelm) is wearing a Russian outfit?
Fashion of the day!
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Yes. That was the fashion of the day for royal children.
I heard Irene wasn't too fussy about clothes like Ella and Alicky...
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although Irene has sometimes really beautifull dresses, before her and after her wedding.
Irene and VHM wasnt both not so fussy about closthes like Ella and Alix.
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Yes. Irene and VMH were more sensible in clothing. Although Alicky turned matronly as soon as the babies spoiled her figure.
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i wanted to know how was the relationship between Irene`s sons Waldemar and Sigismund.
Was they both always cloe to each other ? i think they has share room or ?
Was Irene closer to Waldemar than Sigismund ? i think yeah, cause waldemar has the illness like alexej and sigi was the health of them.
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Does anyone have photos of Prince Henry in childhood? I looked at this whole entire thread and I haven't come across one. I didn't post at the Having Fun section because a lot of posters doesn't go there. Thank you.
Here s another one. I think he is the kid hugged by Victoria ;) (not sure tho)
(http://img197.imagevenue.com/loc137/th_89440_friedrich3prussia1831-91_122_137lo.jpg) (http://img197.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=89440_friedrich3prussia1831-91_122_137lo.jpg)
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That is a photo of CP Frederick and Vicky with their children: Charlotte, Waldemar, Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe. Henry and Wilhelm are not in that particular picture.
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Thanks for the aclaration! i wasnt sure about it ;)
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Thank you anyways Katenka.
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Irene's sons were close to each other until Waldemar's death. Sigimund later relocated to Middle America to grow coffee, but lost a bundle there. His son Aftred still lives in that area (Costa Rica).
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I have a question, I read once the book "Fost and sun myself" from Asta Scheib and in the eighteenth chapter Felix Yussupow (Ehemann of Zinaida Yussupow) with grand duke Nikolas Nikolajewitsch stands spoke. Nikolas rushed about The last czarina Alexandra and about the illness them her son gave.
Nikolas said: "her brother Friedrich has died at the age of three years of the illness, and her sister, princess Irene of Prussia, has brought four critically ill sons on the world!"
I did not know at all Irene four dead sons on the world brought, nevertheless, these were three, and only the oldest one and the latest one suffered from the illness. what is right then now?
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Darling "Nikolasha" seems not to have been informed very well :)
Princess Irene gave brith to three sons - and you are correct about the eldest, Waldemar suffering from hemophilia. The youngest, Heinrich seems to have had it too. I don't know the circumstances of his death tho. Just read a letter from Irene - she sufferd terribly but was very brave about it
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Sigimund was far from sickly...I don't understand that either.
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I think this is due to Mendel's rules.......
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I'm confused here. I thought Irene's youngest son, Prince Heinrich died of hemophilia. Am I right?
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yeah i think so it too. And many Information say it the same like you.
But i dont know why asta scheib wrote that she has four sons. Has Irene mabe a abortion ???? but i dont know it,
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I think it was not a fact. Irene had three children and 2 survived to marry. Don't understand 4 dead boys mean ??? ::)
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Yeah, Irene only had three sons; Waldemar, Sigismund, and Heinrich and it was only Waldemar and Heinrich that were haemophiliacs...Sigismund was fine.