Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Grand Duke on August 09, 2005, 02:03:02 PM

Title: King Louis XIV
Post by: Grand Duke on August 09, 2005, 02:03:02 PM
.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 09, 2005, 02:05:28 PM

 He was a great king, though he spent a lot of money . . .
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: cimbrio on August 09, 2005, 02:34:06 PM
Yes, those high heels must have been so expensive...
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Kimberly on August 09, 2005, 02:36:35 PM
Surely he is an ancestor of the Noble Grand Duke of Lipton on Avon. I can see SUCH a resemblance!!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 09, 2005, 02:43:40 PM
Is this the Louis who regularly danced in court ballets as a young man?  He is showing good 'turnout' in that painting.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 09, 2005, 02:49:11 PM
He wore the heels because he was quite short, a la Napoleon who always made himself look taller in his portraits by sitting on a horse etc . . .
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: cimbrio on August 09, 2005, 02:55:36 PM
I think Napoleon's grave at Les Invalides is down below so apparently everyonehas to "bow" to have a look at him, thus we all bow to him even though he's dead :P
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Agneschen on August 09, 2005, 03:38:10 PM
The hereabove posted portrait of King Louis XIV "the Sun King" by Hyacinthe Rigaud is extremely famous here in France and to be found in every history schoolbook. Louis XIV was the embodiment of France's prestige, greatness and autocratic power as it prevailed at the time. I think this portrait in full court dress does picture his majesty (though it is flattering for the King was already old when it was painted and his legs must not have looked as good as they do).  

As a young man, indeed, King Louis was extremely fond of dancing.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Grand Duke on August 09, 2005, 04:21:12 PM
(http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter10/images/louis_xiv.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: baronet on August 10, 2005, 05:54:56 AM
Hellow everybody, new here. My first post :)

What about the wig? Well a special wig mixed fifty-fifty with his own hair!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 06:20:54 AM
Welcome, baronet!

I'm sure Louis wore a wig - everyone at the French court did, and likewise the court of his cousin Charles II in England. Plenty of make-up to, I'd imagine.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 07:41:53 AM
http://www.henri-iv.com/louis141.gif

Now that's definitely a wig!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Tsarfan on August 10, 2005, 09:52:14 AM
Quote
He wore the heels because he was quite short, a la Napoleon who always made himself look taller in his portraits by sitting on a horse etc . . .


Yes, Louis XIV did initially don high heels in order to raise his stature -- literally -- among the throng of his court.  Unfortunately, every sartorial move he made triggered a fad, and soon everyone else at court was wearing high heels . . . and Louis ended up right back where he started.  (Vain as he was, he could not order others not to wear heels without an open acknowledgement that it was all about his height.)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Tsarfan on August 10, 2005, 10:01:15 AM
Quote
He was a great king, though he spent a lot of money . . .


At least while Colbert, Louis' famous counsellor, was alive Louis' expenditures actually advanced the fiscal fortunes of France.

Colbert drove the development of French manufacturing of luxury goods.  Coupled with his master's international-style-setting expenditures, sales of French luxury goods skyrocketed across Europe, bringing large sums of foreign currency into France.

It really wasn't until the wars of his later reign that the effects of Louis XIV's expenditures exerted a negative impact.  This eventually reached such proportions that much of the silver funiture of Versailles was melted down to keep the army in the field.  For instance, there was a famous suite of silver furniture and planters in the Hall of Mirrors that disappeared forever in the Mint's cauldrons.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: ilyala on August 11, 2005, 11:21:05 AM
i think he was a great king but i also think that unconsciously he did a lot of harm to france. because he became so powerful and everyone got the notion that the king must do everything. and he was followed by two incompetents (one because he didn't want to, second because he couldn't be competent) and the whole france was used to depending on the king... and when the king is bad... baboom! :P
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 11:34:05 AM


Louis was the personification of vanity, but also of power!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Tsarfan on August 11, 2005, 11:56:16 AM
One must remember that when Louis was a small child, the French nobility engaged in a coup, known as the Fronde, against the crown.  His mother and Cardinal Richelieu barely escaped with their lives, and the young Louis was severely traumatized in much the same way that Peter the Great was by the palace coup against his mother and her relatives in his childhood.

Louis grew up knowing that the only way to secure the safety of himself and his dynasty was to quash the political aspirations of a fractious nobility.  In fact, Versailles was enlarged into the "gilded cage" it became under Louis for largely political reasons.  Louis needed to cut the senior nobility off from their bases of support in their regional estates, and he devised the plan of luring them to Versailles.

In pursuit of that aim, he created both positive reinforcements and negative consequences relating to Versailles.  For reinforcement, he made Versailles the center of culture and entertainment in France.  It had to be a lush, never-ending -- and ultimatly addictive -- parade of music, art, high society, games and sundry other diversions.  On the consequences side of it, no one who did not spend a considerable portion of their year in or near Versailles had any hope of receiving lucrative appointments for themselves or their family members, state pensions, or other preferments.

Part of Louis' plan was to make life at Versailles so ruinously expensive for the nobility that they would be devoid of funds with which to raise private armies or pursue other political agendas.  Hence the ever-escalating elaboration of dress and entertainment expenses, the encouragement of high-stakes gambling, etc.

The primary reason Louis developed such a ponderous court etiquette was to give the nobility something to connive and fight over other than real political power.  If he could make the right to hold the king's right glove during the Grand Lever more desperately sought after than the right to hold the king's left glove, then he could effectively emasculate his nobility.  He did just that.

It was initially a brilliant strategy that bought France several generations of respite from civil war.  It was also a strategy that developed a life of its own, living well beyond Louis' need for it and ultimately contributing to the collapse of the monarchy.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 12:01:42 PM

Indeed, Louis destoyed the nobility's power to such an extent, that nobles could only content themselves flattering the King to see if they gained His favour.


About the Fronde, I suppose you meant Mazarin, didn't you?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Tsarfan on August 11, 2005, 12:25:01 PM
Sorry . . . I did mean Mazarin.  Thanks for the catch.

I sometimes post while at work and get in too big a hurry.  I was thinking about writing a post about the Musketeers and apparently had Richelieu on the brain.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 12:29:56 PM


Nothing wrong with that, it happens quite often to everybody, I suppose!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Grand Duke on August 11, 2005, 04:16:31 PM
Quote
Louis was the personification of vanity, but also of power!


Just like me  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Helene on August 13, 2005, 11:33:27 AM
Votre Altesse "Grand Duke", voici votre palais  ;):

http://www.insecula.com/salle/theme_40033_M0037.html

Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 05:38:27 AM
Here's some pics:

(http://www.raingod.com/angus/Gallery/Photos/Europe/France/Paris/images/Versailles01.jpg)

(http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/dfg/core/versail.jpg)

(http://www.sonic.net/~kathy/vers.big.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 06:29:59 AM
Wow, you were there! Wonderful! I would imagine that it is quite awe-inspiring in person!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 07:42:03 AM


I was there this past 3rd August!!!


Later i'll try to post up some photos I took there!

It was really worth it!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 07:44:10 AM
Quote

I was there this past 3rd August!!!


Later i'll try to post up some photos I took there!

It was really worth it!


Oooh . .. please, please post them umigon!!! That would be a treat for all of us!!!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 09:21:37 AM


Ok, I will try to post the ones that were best done!


Here they are:

An image of Versailles as you approach to the palace

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/3/8/388a9f29.jpg)


(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/9/5/95ddfb3f.jpg)

Louis XIV's statue:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/4/b/4bc5679b.jpg)

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/4/4/44a034ef.jpg)


The famous golden clock:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/1/3/134caff0.jpg)

A view from the gardens:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/a/2/a21a4378.jpg)

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/5/7/574e0879.jpg)


The bedroom of la dauphine María Teresa, which was then the bedroom of her beloved husband, le dauphin Louis Ferdinand, son of Louis XV:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/5/0/5093e106.jpg)


The famous Hall of Mirrors:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/0/0/005f6e9c.jpg)

A figure of Marie Antoinette in her bedroom:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/3/e/3ef5a802.jpg)

Marie Antoinette's bed:

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/8/2/82363c3c.jpg)


Sadly it was to late to go to the gardens, so in my next trip to Paris, I'll return to Versailles!

Hope you liked the pics!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 09:47:08 AM
Thanks you so much, umigon!!!!!!!!! they are beautiful pics!!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Grand Duke on August 15, 2005, 09:49:36 AM
Beautiful pics, thank you very much!

OMG, the 1st photo has the time 12.10 pm and the last 5.15 pm - 5 hours at the Palace and you didn't get to see everything!  :o :o :o

Maybe is a week enough?  ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 09:53:05 AM


There is a little secret about the hour... they were taken on two separate days! Yes, the first day the queue was of, at least, two hours, under the sun.


So I decided to wait and I went other day after having lunch, supposing there would be less people... I was right!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Helene on August 15, 2005, 12:34:23 PM
There are lot of fountains in the park and in the early days of Versailles, fountain guards were ordered to whistle when Louis XIV approached, so that the fountains could be fully turned on because the supply in water was difficult.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Tsarfan on August 15, 2005, 01:08:20 PM
I have been to Versailles a couple of times, but it was years ago.  The palace is in an almost perpetual state of restoration.  As with all palaces, it went through many modifications even while still in use as a royal residence.  For instance, the famous Ambassador Staircase was removed in, I think, Louis XV's time, to make way for some additional rooms.  Also, the ground floor gallery was originally open to the air but later enclosed by Louis XIV to provide an exercise space for rainy-day walks.

The biggest alterations, of course, came after the Revolution, when some of the state rooms were converted to museum galleries glorifying the French military exploits of the 19th century.

By the early 20-century, the palace was in an advancing state of decay.  John D. Rockefeller came to its aid in the 1920's, at which time structural engineers and restorers made their first descent on the place.  As you might expect, the initial focus was on the major state apartments and the suites of the royal couple.

Some of their findings were startling.  Louis XIV had built Versailles "on the cheap", as it were.  For instance, many of the fountains were in near collapse, because they were made of cement poured around bundles of flagons in an attempt to cut costs.

The restoration of Versailles today seems to be well-funded and moving along apace.  Last I heard, the restorations had been extended into the ground-floor quarters of other members of the royal family.

In its heydey, Versailles was home to around 10,000 people.  While the members of the royal household lived in relative comfort and privacy, some astonishingly high members of the nobility were relegated to pretty ratty quarters in the garret floors, where they had one or two small poorly-ventilated rooms, where people urinated in hallways and stairwells, etc.  Maybe not much of a problem in those days . . . Louis XIV himself was reported to have seen a bath only twice -- upon being born and being embalmed.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Grand Duke on August 15, 2005, 04:14:13 PM
Quote
There are lot of fountains in the park and in the early days of Versailles, fountain guards were ordered to whistle when Louis XIV approached, so that the fountains could be fully turned on because the supply in water was difficult.


The fountains of Versailles needed as much water as all the city of Paris!  :o
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 04:55:39 PM
Good God! Only the best for Louis!!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 03:16:17 AM
I was at Versailles on june this year... with some friends (we are historians of art! ;D 8))...
The gallerie des Glaces (english name?) is close nuntil 2007 because they restaure it.

and the site (in French): http://www.chateauversailles.fr/

and in English:http://www.chateauversailles.fr/en/ (what is that languague , at my times, everybody spoke French! pfuuuu! 8))

here are some of my pictures:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo004.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo005.jpg)

Louis XIV by Le Bernin
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo016.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 03:30:35 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo020.jpg)


Le Petit Trianon
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo048.jpg)


Le Grand Trianon (my home!)
[(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo053.jpg)


yes! this is the WC!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo060.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 03:33:58 AM
an the bath!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo061.jpg)

Marie Antoinette by Elisabeth Vigée Lebrun:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo049.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo054.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 03:35:41 AM
Empress's Marie Louise bedroom at the Grand Trianon:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo087.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo084.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Helene on August 16, 2005, 03:36:07 AM
LOL, dur dur les toilettes, as tu des photos de la ferme ?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 03:38:41 AM
and in the park:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo068.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/Photo063.jpg)

merci Hélène!
C'est le luxe ces toilettes! t'imagine! au 18è siècle! Napoléon s'est assis dessus! :P

Unfortunetly, we haven't not enought time to see La Ferme et le hameau! :-/ Next time!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 16, 2005, 04:27:43 AM
Wonderful pics, Lisa! Though I will admit, my school-boy French was insufficient to pick up on everything you and Helene said to each other! ; - )
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 05:09:18 AM
hum hum!  :-/
our discussion was not very serious :-[: we speak about the WC: it is very comfortable, and Napoléon sat on it! ;D 8)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 16, 2005, 05:20:31 AM
Quote
hum hum!  :-/
our discussion was not very serious :-[: we speak about the WC: it is very comfortable, and Napoléon sat on it! ;D 8)


Ah, well, if Napoloeon sat on it, that makes it the most important WC in the world!!! ; - )
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 06:35:43 AM
sure! ::)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Modena on November 05, 2005, 07:17:43 PM
Quote
Yes, those high heels must have been so expensive...


Seriously, he was known for having very shapely legs  :-*
Great dancer, too.  :-*
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 06, 2005, 02:51:26 AM
Quote

Ah, well, if Napoloeon sat on it, that makes it the most important WC in the world!!! ; - )


When I visited the Grand Trianon, I was told that the apartments were restored by Napoleon III for the visit of Queen Victoria. I think the WC must date from this time. I'm pretty certain they did not have such things in the 18th century.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: James_Davidov on November 18, 2005, 06:48:30 PM

This legend has always intrigued me; and I was surprised after I searched the site not to find anything on it….

For those of you who don’t know this story, pull of a chair, it’s just as worthy a mystery as any of the Tsar’s.

In 1698 a mysterious man was imprisoned in the Bastille. Almost no one seemed to know who he was, although residents of the French prison were usually important people who had fallen out of favor with King Louis XIV. This man had been a captive of the government since at least 1687, and for all that time his face had been hidden by a mask.
The masked man died in 1703, but rumors about his strange existence continued to circulate. In 1711 the king's sister-in-law, the Princess Palatine, mentioned the story in a letter to her aunt. The prisoner was treated very well, she said, but two musketeers stood by him at all times, ready to kill him if he removed his mask. He ate in the mask, slept in the mask, and eventually died in the mask. Even at the royal court his identity remained a mystery.
The philosopher and writer Voltaire was confined to the Bastille in 1717. He spent almost a year there, and later told a friend that he had spoken to people who had served the Man in the Iron Mask. In his book The Age of Louis XIV, published in 1751, Voltaire said that the prisoner was forced to wear an iron mask as early as 1661, when he was held captive on the island of Sainte-Marguerite. The prisoner was young (in 1661), tall and very handsome. He dressed in the finest lace and linen, and enjoyed playing the guitar.
In his later writings Voltaire dropped broad hints about the prisoner's possible identity. According to Voltaire, the man was about 60 when he died, and bore a striking resemblance to someone very famous. Of course, the most famous face in France at that time belonged to King Louis XIV, who was also in his 60s. Another writer, Joseph de Lagrange-Chancel, lived at Versailles during Louis XIV's reign and was imprisoned on Sainte-Marguerite in the 1720s. He asserted that Benigne d'Auvergne de Saint-Mars, the governor of Sainte-Marguerite, treated the masked man deferentially and called him "my prince."
In 1768 a descendant of Saint-Mars wrote that the prisoner was called "Tower" by his captors. He didn't have to wear the mask all the time, only in public, and the guards sometimes saw him without it. When prison officials were in Tower's presence they politely removed their hats and remained standing until the prisoner gave them permission to sit.
Stories about the masked prisoner are often conflicting. Some writers state that he wore a mask of black velvet, not iron. Etienne Du Junca, who was second in command of the Bastille, never saw the prisoner without his black velvet mask. Du Junca wrote in his journal that the prisoner was buried under the name M. de Marchiel. A later writer located a death certificate giving the prisoner's name as Marchioly and his age as approximately 45.
In 1789 journalist Frederic-Melchior Grimm claimed that a royal valet had revealed to him that Louis XIV had an identical twin. The twins' father, Louis XIII, feared the brothers would grow up to fight over the throne, so he sent the second-born baby away to be raised in secret. The boy was taken into a nobleman's household and treated with great respect, but he was never told who he really was. As a young man he saw a portrait of his brother and guessed the truth. He was immediately arrested, and spent the rest of his life as the Man in the Iron Mask.
Many people believed this (probably fictional) account, which was elaborated and embroidered by other writers as the years passed. It has been said that when the Bastille was stormed by a revolutionary mob, the prince's skeleton was discovered, still wearing its iron mask, but there is no record that this actually happened. Napoleon supposedly believed that he was descended from the unfortunate prince, who, according to legend, had married the daughter of the governor of Sainte-Marguerite.

James
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: James_Davidov on November 18, 2005, 11:33:10 PM
By the way...that was from RoyatlyNU

http://www.royalty.nu/legends/IronMask.html

James
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: ilyala on November 19, 2005, 01:15:52 AM
well i think that he didn't wear that mask for nothing. either he had a face that was really really ugly for some reason or his face was evidence of something (ie a striking resemblance to someone...)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 19, 2005, 09:39:22 AM
Very interesting, James. Thank you. I have never heard the mystery told so clearly before!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: veu on November 19, 2005, 12:11:37 PM
We think that this story is true!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 19, 2005, 01:20:02 PM
We don't! :D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 19, 2005, 04:06:48 PM
 Oh, I think it is true, which does not make it less of a mystery.  ;)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Kimberly on November 19, 2005, 04:56:48 PM
Hello, who is "we" :)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: James_Davidov on November 19, 2005, 06:24:40 PM

The jury for we(me)...is still out....He must have been someone important, interesting and potentially damaging to someone....

any suggestions?

James
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: etonexile on November 19, 2005, 06:34:30 PM
Pretty unlikely...he would have choked on his own hair and beard in a locked mask...think about it.... ::)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: James_Davidov on November 19, 2005, 07:16:47 PM

Quote
Pretty unlikely...he would have choked on his own hair and beard in a locked mask...think about it....


Which supports the theory that guards were stationed by him at all times, ready to kill him if he removed it...

that along with the prision officers calling him 'Prince'..would hint to him being someone VERY powerful..


James
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 21, 2005, 12:23:16 AM
Quote

Which supports the theory that guards were stationed by him at all times, ready to kill him if he removed it...

that along with the prision officers calling him 'Prince'..would hint to him being someone VERY powerful..


James


Or it supports the theory that this is a made-up story!

There is also the amusing anecdote about the Comte de Provence (later Louis XVIII), on meeting his niece Madame Royale for the first time after her release from the Temple. Instead of saying how awful it must have been, the first thing he wanted to know was whether her father had told her the identity of the Man in the Iron Mask!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 21, 2005, 09:57:14 PM
Quote

Or it supports the theory that this is a made-up story!

There is also the amusing anecdote about the Comte de Provence (later Louis XVIII), on meeting his niece Madame Royale for the first time after her release from the Temple. Instead of saying how awful it must have been, the first thing he wanted to know was whether her father had told her the identity of the Man in the Iron Mask!


I had forgotten that story. Typical....
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: stacey on November 29, 2005, 09:38:32 AM
From what I've read about this fascinating mystery, apparently there WAS a very mysterious prisoner, so I don't think it's fiction. At the same time, there certainly has been a lot of wild speculation about the identity of the prisoner, a lot of it VERY unlikely to say the least!! Still, he must have been someone easily recognizable--why else go to such lengths to hide his face?! And the striking deference shown to him was unusual, to say the least! Which does seem to suggest he was a "person of importance".  I've also heard (don't know if it's truth or rumor) that at one point the prisoner wrote a note and threw it from his prison window. Allegedly a man passing by found it and went to the prison warden (or at least one of the guards--I think it was the warden tho') ANYHOW--the warden looked at the note carefully and then asked the man who found it, "Did you read this?" The man answered, with apparent honesty, "No, I cannot read or write." To which the warden replied, "That is your good fortune!"--presumably meaning that had he been able to read whatever the mystery prisoner wrote, his own fate would have been a very sad one!! BTW--I think it HIGHLY unlikely that the poor prisoner was forced to wear a mask of iron--ugh!! Much more likely to have been of velvet or satin or something like that, and easily removed for shaving, etc. This is a very intriguing mystery--and I do love a good historical mystery!! ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Marc on December 11, 2005, 07:13:58 AM
From what I read in King Louis XIV biography,the real identity of the man in the Iron Mask was only known to King Louis XIV,King Louis XV,King Louis XVI and previously Prince Regent d'Orleans(King Louis XIV told him on his death-bed)!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: RomanovFan on December 26, 2005, 01:19:21 AM
Did those kings know who the prisoner in the mask was? Was he actually supposed to be the good twin brother of a nasty king?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: ilyala on December 26, 2005, 03:24:52 AM
maybe the other way around ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 26, 2005, 05:38:01 AM
Some say the man was the Duke of Monmouth! James II didn't have the heart to have his nephew executed, so he had another man beheaded in his place and sent Monmouth to Louis XIV.....
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: palatine on December 28, 2005, 01:04:02 PM
Monmouth was executed in front of a large crowd of witnesses, so he couldn't have been the man in the iron mask.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 02, 2006, 05:19:56 AM
This is what Mme Campan says in her memoirs:

"During the first few months of his reign Louis XVI. dwelt at La Muette, Marly, and Compiegne. When settled at Versailles he occupied himself with a general examination of his grandfather's papers. He had promised the Queen to communicate to her all that he might discover relative to the history of the man with the iron mask, who, he thought, had become so inexhaustible a source of conjecture only in consequence of the interest which the pen of a celebrated writer had excited respecting the detention of a prisoner of State, who was merely a man of whimsical tastes and habits.

I was with the Queen when the King, having finished his researches, informed her that he had not found anything among the secret papers elucidating the existence of this prisoner; that he had conversed on the matter with M. de Maurepas, whose age made him contemporary with the epoch during which the story must have been known to the ministers; and that M. de Maurepas had assured him he was merely a prisoner of a very dangerous character, in consequence of his disposition for intrigue. He was a subject of the Duke of Mantua, and was enticed to the frontier, arrested there, and kept prisoner, first at Pignerol, and afterwards in the Bastille. This transfer took place in consequence of the appointment of the governor of the former place to the government of the latter. It was for fear the prisoner should profit by the inexperience of a new governor that he was sent with the Governor of Pignerol to the Bastille.

Such was, in fact, the truth about the man on whom people have been pleased to fix an iron mask. And thus was it related in writing, and published by M. ——- twenty years ago. He had searched the archives of the Foreign Office, and laid the real story before the public; but the public, prepossessed in favour of a marvellous version, would not acknowledge the authenticity of his account. Every man relied upon the authority of Voltaire; and it was believed that a natural or a twin brother of Louis XIV. lived many years in prison with a mask over his face. The story of this mask, perhaps, had its origin in the old custom, among both men and women in Italy, of wearing a velvet mask when they exposed themselves to the sun. It is possible that the Italian captive may have sometimes shown himself upon the terrace of his prison with his face thus covered. As to the silver plate which this celebrated prisoner is said to have thrown from his window, it is known that such a circumstance did happen, but it happened at Valzin, in the time of Cardinal Richelieu. This anecdote has been mixed up with the inventions respecting the Piedmontese prisoner."
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mili on January 25, 2006, 08:36:10 PM
My God! These photos are absolutely and spectacularly breath-taking. I'll get there one day :)
The Trianon is actually quite more modern to what i expected, and it surely is different from the Austrian court and imperial apartments! It wasn't quite furnished according to the French court standards was it?
Marie Antoinette's bed looks exceedingly uncomfortable; it gives me the impression of being covered in clingwrap!
Also what were the wc's like in palaces before the 19th century? Were chamber pots relied on mostly?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 26, 2006, 01:31:09 AM
Quote
My God! These photos are absolutely and spectacularly breath-taking. I'll get there one day :)
The Trianon is actually quite more modern to what i expected, and it surely is different from the Austrian court and imperial apartments! It wasn't quite furnished according to the French court standards was it?
Marie Antoinette's bed looks exceedingly uncomfortable; it gives me the impression of being covered in clingwrap!
Also what were the wc's like in palaces before the 19th century? Were chamber pots relied on mostly?


The nobility had what was called a chaise percée. It was like a normal (very ornate) chair with a hole in it. Underneath would be the chamber pot which would be removed by a servant. Ladies had little stools - a servant would crawl under their voluminious skirts to put them into place!

Everyone else used the corridors I believe.  :) Well, you did ask!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: ilyala on January 26, 2006, 03:10:17 AM
Quote

The nobility had what was called a chaise percée. It was like a normal (very ornate) chair with a hole in it. Underneath would be the chamber pot which would be removed by a servant. Ladies had little stools - a servant would crawl under their voluminious skirts to put them into place!

Everyone else used the corridors I believe.  :) Well, you did ask!



talk about nasty jobs :D
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mili on January 26, 2006, 04:38:21 AM
The corridors  :o :o :o
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 26, 2006, 08:06:48 AM
That is very true. The corridors and especially the stairwells reeked. That is why those who could escaped the main palace to their "country" houses.

Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Angie_H on January 26, 2006, 12:00:43 PM
I read somewhere that the man was Louis XIV "real" father. That another man was his father and not Louis XIII and because he so resembled Louis XIV he had to wear the mask. Probably a bunch of bunk but look at Louis XIII & Anne of Austria, after 20 yrs. of marriage they finally have a child?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 26, 2006, 12:02:09 PM
Umigon knows a lot about that issue. I think it's historically almost 100% proven that Anne and Louis were Louis XIV's parents . . .
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: palatine on January 26, 2006, 02:26:58 PM
Most historians are convinced that Louis XIII was the father of Louis XIV and Philippe.

Some believe that after Louis XIII died, Anne of Austria secretly married Cardinal Mazarin.  If they'd had a child or children, it would have been politically embarrassing for everyone.  There is no proof of Anne and Mazarin's marriage, or that they had a child together, but at one time it was a leading theory to explain the true identity of the Man in the Iron Mask.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Sissi on January 26, 2006, 03:06:37 PM
I did not know that Louis XVIII asked MT if she new that identity of the man in the iron mask!!!! :o


 I learn from you guys everyday thanks!!!! ;)

Alexandre Dumas in his novels "Le Comte de Bragelonne" deals a lot with the man in the iron mask, according to the novel, Aramis new that the prisoner was Louis XIV twin brother. he tries a coup d etat by replacing the king by the prisoner but d Artagnan finds out and avoids it.

  Alexandre Dumas and many other writers such as Voltaire who you guys mentioned before did beleive that the prisoner was of royal blood.

 I guess we will never know, but I just think we love mysteries, and this is probably one of the biggest ever!

 Anyways, he must have been pretty famous, and pretty dangerous....
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mili on January 26, 2006, 04:40:58 PM
Until when was this commonly practiced?!  :o
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 26, 2006, 04:49:54 PM
I think that the Revolution and Napoleon brought some minimal sanitation; the Bonapartes were known to be very clean. However, the same unsavory situation existed in the Tuileries under the Bourbon restoration.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mili on January 26, 2006, 04:52:59 PM
Holy Moly! Antoinette must have been appauled! I cant imagine that being done back home in the Austrian court, i'm pretty sure they observed strict court procedures on just about everything.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 26, 2006, 05:00:38 PM
Probably! That is why she went to her Trianon so often.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Angie_H on February 02, 2006, 10:17:47 AM
Does anyone know about Louis XIV's daughter? This was an actual legitimate one that he had with Maria-Teresa of Austria and she died around the age of five? I have only read one book that references her
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Prince_Lieven on February 02, 2006, 11:02:53 AM
I think she was Marie-Therese, born Jan 2 1667 and died March 1 1672, but that's all I know.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Agneschen on February 02, 2006, 06:18:52 PM
Quote
Sadly it was to late to go to the gardens, so in my next trip to Paris, I'll return to Versailles!


You will have to devote a whole day to the gardens exclusively umigon for they are so huge and there is so much to see.
I am lucky enough to live in Paris and go and see them every year during the summer and am always amazed at their beauty and magnificence ! Besides a lot of work is done by the gardeners and there frequently new things to see.
For all those who plan to visit Versailles gardens, I recommend you to do it in spring or during the summer and during the week end to see les grandes eaux (all the fountains are working) - almost magical !
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 08:45:58 AM
Quote

You will have to devote a whole day to the gardens exclusively umigon for they are so huge and there is so much to see.
I am lucky enough to live in Paris and go and see them every year during the summer and am always amazed at their beauty and magnificence ! Besides a lot of work is done by the gardeners and there frequently new things to see.
For all those who plan to visit Versailles gardens, I recommend you to do it in spring or during the summer and during the week end to see les grandes eaux (all the fountains are working) - almost magical !


 Agneschen is right visiting the gardens during Les grandes Eaux is something spectacular..... there is also music.... Versailles is so beautiful, an dif you wait for sunset it is even more beautiful it gives a sensation of mistery.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:25:09 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/LouisXIV.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Louis20XIV20and20Family.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/louisfamily.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Louis14.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/louis-xiv-1-sized.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/LOUIS_XIV_Cavalier.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/LOUIS_XIV_BEBE.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/louisxiv3.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: susana on October 06, 2007, 03:15:49 PM
I believe it's established that Louis XIV and Phillipe his brother were the issue of Louis XIII and Anne of Austria--but the identity of the Man in the Iron Mask was revealed only to Louis XIV, XV, and XVI--no queens. It makes sense that Louis XV's regent would have been told so he could pass it on to Louis XV when he came of age. Louis XIV was initially very popular with his people, leading his armies in battle and an exceedingly polite and considerate man--not as portrayed in the book and movies. I believe the 'man' was some relation--possibly a twin--of Louis XIV; he had to have the possibility of upsetting the rule of France to have had such extreme measures taken to keep him and his identity secret.

If Anne and Mazarin had had a child, it would simply have been spirited away into a household dedicated to raise the child and would have been an open secret as with all the other royal bastards. They were historically well-taken care of.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: dmitri on October 06, 2007, 08:43:18 PM
The Man In The Iron Mask was pure fiction.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on October 07, 2007, 09:16:08 AM
This is what Mme Campan says in her memoirs:

Quote
dangerous character, in consequence of his disposition for intrigue.
Quote
 

Bell, this is very interesting! When you get into the realm of intrigue would that not be open for a lot of Possibilities.

 
Quote
He was a subject of the Duke of Mantua,
Quote

 This is the only Prisoner Mentioned that might fit that Possibility!

Quote
Count Ercolo Antonio Matthioli: An Italian who worked for the Duke of Mantua. The French wished to buy the fortress of Casale from the duke, but Matthioli mishandled the negotiations and was imprisoned at the order of Louis XIV. Matthioli is said to have worn a mask voluntarily because it was an Italian tradition.
Quote

However, he certainly doesn't fit the role of Intrigue or dangerous.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: susana on October 08, 2007, 01:05:57 AM
The Man in the Iron Mask is a true historical figure--Dumas wrote a novel, but it was based on fact. I believe a source is the book The Sun King which mentions the secret was passed down from Louis XIV to Louis XV to Louis XVI. Corrobation is possible for anyone willing to look for it.

I love these fascinating threads. Thanks for provocative thoughts and opinions.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: ivanushka on November 05, 2007, 04:02:48 PM
I remember watching a documentary about the Man in the Iron Mask years ago which put forward the theory that he was in fact Louis XIV's half brother.  If I remember correctly, the theory was that because Louis XIII couldn't/wouldn't impregnate Anne of Austria she was encouraged to have an affair with a courtier who fathered Louis XIV and his brother Phillippe.  This courtier remained close to the royal family and his sons by his wife were quite friendly with the new King and his brother.

One of these sons was a wild character who discovered that he and Louis were related and made threatening noises about revealing it.  In order to safeguard his position Louis had the man arrested with the orders that he was to be well treated but that his face must be kept hidden at all times - hence the Iron Mask.

I keep meaning to buy a book on this subject as it is one of the most fascinating mysteries in history!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: beladona on April 07, 2008, 02:39:22 AM
I am reading a biography of Luis XIV. written by Anthony Levi and in this book he says, that Queen Anne of Austria and Mazarin had a long-standing love relation (probably ended with a secret marriage!?) and Mazarin is the real father of King Luis XIV. Levi has some "proofs" for it (based mostly on homosexuality of Luis XIII. and his hate towards Queen Anne and on one document with false date, supporting that Mazarin was in Paris in time of Queen Anna´s unexpected impregnation).
Is it serious theory supported by any other historians with some credible proofs or is it just Levi´s wild idea based on a rumours? I am very surprised with this book and I don´t know anything about Anthony Levi - is he hictorian or journalist looking for sensation?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on April 07, 2008, 04:56:00 AM
According to The Court of Louis XIII by Katherine Alexandra Patmore there had been many rumors about the birth of the Dauphin. These are some of the names mentioned richelieu, Pere Joseph (confessor), Comminges ,nephew of Captain of the Guard  and these have been explored. If cardinal Mazarin had been involved Patmore states

http://books.google.com/books?id=QU5BAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Louis+XIII&ei=2-T5R82HLJHCyQTvq5XKCQ#PPA302,M1
Memoirs of Madame De  Montespan by Madame De Montespan



In France, where men affect to be so gallant and so courteous, how is it that when women rule their reign is always stormy and troublous? Anne of Austria—comely, amiable, and gracious as she was—met with the same brutal discourtesy which her sister-in-law, Marie de Medici, had been obliged to bear. But gifted with greater force of intellect than that queen, she never yielded aught of her just rights; and it was her strong will which more than once astounded her enemies and saved the crown for the young King.

They lampooned her, hissed her, and burlesqued her publicly at the theatres, cruelly defaming her intentions and her private life. Strong in the knowledge of her own rectitude, she faced the tempest without flinching; yet inwardly her soul was torn to pieces. The barricading of Paris, the insolence of M. le Prince, the bravado and treachery of Cardinal de Retz, burnt up the very blood in her veins, and brought on her fatal malady, which took the form of a hideous cancer.

Our nobility (who are only too glad to go and reign in Naples, Portugal, or Poland) openly declared that no foreigner ought to hold the post of minister in Paris. Despite his Roman purple, Mazarin was condemned to be hanged.

The motive for this was some trifling tax which he had ordered to be collected before this had been ratified by the magistrates and registered in the usual way.

But the Queen knew how to win over the nobles. Her cardinal was recalled, and the apathy of the Parisians put an end to these dissensions, from which, one must admit, the people and the bourgeoisie got all the ills and the nobility all the profits.

Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on April 07, 2008, 06:01:40 AM
Sorry, I am having trouble with my Computer! If Cardinal Mazarin had been in the habit of visiting  Anne of Austria the knowledge would be very much known at the time. There were Spies of concerned Parties everywhere.  At one point both the homeland of the young Queen and the Pope were involved in encouraging an heir! As it was terrible pamphlets were published. I believe the version Madame De Montespan puts forward in her memoirs is the correct one. She of course is the famous beauty that was the Mistress of Louis IV and knew both Anne of Austria and Cardinal Mazarin..... She relates this story....

Quote
Though ceasing to make a royal residence and home of Paris, his Majesty did not omit to pay occasional visits to the centre of the capital. He came incognito, sometimes on horseback, sometimes in a coach, and usually went about the streets on foot. On these occasions he was dressed carelessly, like any ordinary young man, and the better to ensure a complete disguise, he kept continually changing either the colour of his moustache or the colour and cut of his clothes. One evening, on leaving the opera, just as he was about to open his carriage door, a man approached him with a great air of mystery, and tendering a pamphlet, begged him to buy it. To get rid of the importunate fellow, his Majesty purchased the book, and never glanced at its contents until the following day.

Imagine his surprise and indignation! The following was the title of his purchase:

        "Secret and Circumstantial Account of the Marriage of Anne of Austria, Queen of France, with the Abbe Jules Simon Mazarin, Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church. A new edition, carefully revised. Amsterdam."

Grave and phlegmatic by nature, the King was always master of his feelings, a sign, this, of the noble-minded. He shut himself up in his apartment, so as to be quite alone, and hastily perused the libellous pamphlet.

According to the author of it, King Louis XIII., being weak and languid, and sapped moreover by secret poison, had not been able to beget any heirs. The Queen, who secretly was Mazarin's mistress, had had twins by the Abbe, only the prettier of the two being declared legitimate. The other twin had been entrusted to obscure teachers, who, when it was time, would give him up.

The princess, so the writer added, stung by qualms of conscience, had insisted upon having her guilty intimacy purified by the sacrament of marriage, to which the prime minister agreed. Then, mentioning the names of such and such persons as witnesses, the book stated that "this marriage was solemnised on a night in February, 1643, by Cardinal de Sainte-Suzanne, a brother and servile creature of Mazarin's."

"This explains," added the vile print, "the zeal, perseverance, and foolish ardour of the Queen Regent in defending her Italian against the just opposition of the nobles, against the formal charges of the magistrates, against the clamorous outcry, not only of Parisians, but of all France. This explains the indifference, or rather the firm resolve, on Mazarin's part; never to take orders, but to remain simply 'tonsure' or 'minore',—he who controls at least forty abbeys, as well as a bishopric.

"Look at the young monarch," it continued, "and consider how closely he resembles his Eminence, the same haughty glance; the same uncontrolled passion for pompous buildings, luxurious dress and equipages; the same deference and devotion to the Queen-mother; the same independent customs, precepts, and laws; the same aversion for the Parisians; the same resentment against the honest folk of the Fronde."

This final phrase easily disclosed its origin; nor upon this point had his Majesty the slightest shadow of a doubt.

The same evening he sent full instructions to the lieutenant-general of police, and two days afterwards the nocturnal vendor of pamphlets found himself caught in a trap.

The King wished him to be brought to Saint Germain, so that he might identify him personally; and, as he pretended to be half-witted or an idiot, he was thrown half naked into a dungeon. His allowance of dry bread diminished day by day, at which he complained, and it was decided to make him undergo this grim ordeal.

Under the pressure of hunger and thirst, the prisoner at length made a confession, and mentioned a bookseller of the Quartier Latin, who, under the Fronde, had made his shop a meeting-place for rebels.

The bookseller, having been put in the Bastille, and upon the same diet as his salesman, stated the name of the Dutch printer who had published the pamphlet. They sought to extract more from him, and reduced his diet with such severity that he disclosed the entire secret.

This bookseller, used to a good square meal at home, found it impossible to tolerate the Bastille fare much longer. Bound hand and foot, at his final cross-examination he confessed that the work had emanated from the Cardinal de Retz, or certain of his party.

He was condemned to three years' imprisonment, and was obliged to sell his shop and retire to the provinces.

I once heard M. de Louvois tell this tale, and use it as a means of silencing those who regretted the absence of the exiled Cardinal-archbishop.

As to the libellous pamphlet itself, the clumsy nature of it was only too plain, for the King is no more like Mazarin than he is like the King of Ethiopia. On the contrary, one can easily distinguish in the general effect of his features a very close resemblance to King Louis XIII.

The libellous pamphlet stated that, on the occasion of the Infanta's first confinement, twins were born, and that the prettier of the two had been adopted, another blunder, this, of the grossest kind. A book of this sort could deceive only the working class and the Parisian lower orders, for folk about the Court, and even the bourgeoisie, know that it is impossible for a queen to be brought to bed in secret. Unfortunately for her, she has to comply with the most embarrassing rules of etiquette. She has to bear her final birth-pangs under an open canopy, surrounded at no great distance by all the princes of the blood; they are summoned thither, and they have this right so as to prevent all frauds, subterfuges, or impositions.

When the King found the seditious book in question, the Queen, his mother, was ill and in pain; every possible precaution was taken to prevent her from hearing the news, and the lieutenant-general of police, having informed the King that two-thirds of the edition had been seized close to the Archbishop's palace, orders were given to burn all these horrible books by night, in the presence of the Marquis de Beringhen, appointed commissioner on this occasion.

 
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Princess Susan on April 07, 2008, 07:25:48 AM
Very interesting quotation from Madame de Montespan's memories. I 've never read before these claims, witch considered Cardinal Mazarin for Lois XIV's father.
Does the book contain also some informations about Luis's relationship with Marquise Francoise Maitenon and gosips about their sicreet marriage?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Princess Susan on April 09, 2008, 06:34:54 AM
I am reading a biography of Luis XIV. written by Anthony Levi and in this book he says, that Queen Anne of Austria and Mazarin had a long-standing love relation (probably ended with a secret marriage!?) and Mazarin is the real father of King Luis XIV. Levi has some "proofs" for it (based mostly on homosexuality of Luis XIII. and his hate towards Queen Anne and on one document with false date, supporting that Mazarin was in Paris in time of Queen Anna´s unexpected impregnation).
Is it serious theory supported by any other historians with some credible proofs or is it just Levi´s wild idea based on a rumours? I am very surprised with this book and I don´t know anything about Anthony Levi - is he hictorian or journalist looking for sensation?

I have found out this book in one bookshop today. And according author's introduction Anthony Levi is historian, and profesor of french language and literature.  So if we can judge according this, he is competent in history. But I haven't read the book. Maybe I will buy it later because would be realy interesting to read it.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on April 09, 2008, 08:50:33 AM
The Memoirs of Madame de Montespan do contain a lot of information on Madame Maintenon also referred to as Scarron.. She in fact was in charge of the King's natural children by Montespan and in that capacity drew the interest of Louis XIV! He found her capable and She had an amusing way of conversation. Temperamentally she was very different from Montespan who although was considered a great beauty had a very demanding jealous nature and made scenes. Maintenon is conceded to have contracted a morganatic marriage with Louis around six months after his wife died. Contemporaries who knew Madame Maintenon had either the highest regard for her or had opinions like Elizabeth Charlotte, the second wife of Monsieur the King's Brother.

The bottom link is to a Book on line entitled Madame Maintenon and the other link to The Memoirs of the Louis XIV by Elizabeth Charlotte Duchess d'Orleans.

Quote
The marriage of Louis XIV. with old Maintenon proves how impossible it is to escape one's fate. The King said one day to the Duc de Crequi and to M. de La Rochefoucauld, long before he knew Mistress Scarron, "I am convinced that astrology is false. I had my nativity cast in Italy, and I was told that, after living to an advanced age, I should be in love with an old ----- to the last moment of my existence. I do not think there is any great likelihood of that." He laughed most heartily as he said this; and yet the thing has taken place.
Quote

Quote
If he had not been so unfortunate as to fall into the hands of two of the worst women in the world Montespan, and that old Maintenon, who was even worse than the other, he would have been one of the best kings that ever lived; for all the evil that he ever did proceeded from those two women, and not from himself.

Although I approved of many things he did, I could not agree with him when he maintained that it was vulgar to love one's relations. Montespan had instilled this into him, in order that she might get rid of all his legitimate blood connections, and might suffer none about him but her bastards; she had even carried matters so far as to seek to confine the royal favour to her offspring or her creatures.
Quote


http://www.public-domain-content.com/books/Louis14/C6P1.shtml



http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=ehBsfjQqVZkC&dq=Madame+de+Maintenon&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=QnrRd0GJpr&sig=8kR3glKPtfTYBtn2w6ekvM_KZBE#PPA45,M1
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on April 10, 2008, 04:34:15 AM
I would be very interested in the sources of  Anthony Levi for this Book! Would love to know what he uses? The theory that Mazarin was the father of Louis XIII is a very well known one. After twenty years of course there would be speculation and with Louis XIII preferring his favorites! Different Historians favor different views of this.  But I have never read a Memoir of that era that states this and some of them are very honest.
 From the Book " the Court of Louis XIII"  here are the events of the night Louis XIV was conceived...

Quote
It was a stormy night when Louis left the convent to head for St. Maur. The tempest was at its height.  Rain fell in torrents and the torches spluttered and went out. It was a sorry night for the King's journey. Yet at St. Maur's was the king's bed while at the Louvre was neither bed nor supper in his own suite, for la bouche were absent. Then Guitaut, Captain of the bodyguard spoke up who was on terms of freedom with his sovereign. Why did not his Majesty stay at the Louvre sharing the Queen's apartment? But of such a plan Louis would hear nothing at first. but the flooded road, the sodden torches, the impenetrable night...Guituat spoke again, the Queen- and supper- and a bed. No, said the peevish King the Queen sups too late and goes to bed late for me. guitaut said the Queen would certainly accomodmate her hours to your Majesty's convenience. Louis wavered and Guituat spurred  his horse and headed  to announce the coming of the King. The Queen was ready with a welcome. There was shelter, food and comfort.

and here is the description also in " Louis XIV and the Court of France"  of his conception.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yBZGAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=Mazarin+the+father+of+Louis+XIII&source=web&ots=O25aMruQLv&sig=rBgnYe7lRe036jlE4e1CFeolWUk&hl=en#PPA96,M1
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: imperial angel on November 23, 2008, 03:25:32 PM
What books are there on this subject?  As for who he was, it is hard to say. A subject of the Duke of Mantua? Perhaps. But  a foreigner with a penchant for dangerous intrigue would be locked up like that and his identity protected so much? I doubt it. He doesn't seem important enough. As for a child of Anne and Mazarin's I doubt it. It is true that it might have been embarassing had they had a child, since it would have been a bastard child of a queen, not a King. Different sitiuation- there was always the double standard for men and women then, male royals could have bastards, women couldn't. But although a bastard would have been embarassing, I doubt these kinds of precautions woud have been taken (  prisoner and a mask). Seems like overkill- the child wouldn't have been that important.

As for a twin brother? Maybe. But what if something had happened to Louis XIV as a child or before he could have heirs, and he had been an only child ( nobody knew Philipe would be born at the time of Louis's birth)? Even if Louis XIV had had a identical twin, why would they have kept his existence secret from birth since Anne and her husband had no other children? They needed all the heirs they could get, and they couldn't have known they would have another child. They didn't know if Louis XIV would live to adulthood or have heirs, as children could and did die young then. Life for royals even was uncertain. Why would they hide away a perfectly legitimate heir, if he had a twin brother? Wouldn't that brother have been regarded as good insurance in case Louis XIV died before he had heirs or could rule?  Doesn't make sense. I do believe as well Louis was the son of Anne and Louis.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: susana on December 06, 2008, 01:56:43 PM
Both LXIV and his brother Phillipe had the same dark exotic coloring of LXIII--Anne of Austria was quite blonde.
If Anne had an affair with Mazarin, why would they keep two boys out as royal brothers and who in the heck would they lock up?
Here's another thought: if LXIV was a twin, and they do run in families, how many of you know that LXV had twin daughters?
It seems overdone to cover a man's face, treat him royally, unless his face is the problem--recognition. Who could be so dangerous to a king surrounded by Musketeers that he needed to wear a facial disguise?
Also, don't you think the mask might have been removed on occasion to check for health, sores, tooth condition, and perhaps a hair trim? If the Man In The Iron Mask was ony an enemy why would it be passed down in secret from king to king ending with LXVI?jPerhaps in near darkness to prevent recognition?
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Lucien on October 21, 2009, 01:04:21 AM
Wonderfull exhibition at Versailles:

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2009/10/versailles-showing-off-louis-xiv.html

courtesy hja
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on October 21, 2009, 01:08:11 AM
Paris anyone? This would be worth going for!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on October 21, 2009, 02:07:53 AM
Madame de Montespan once said that Louis XIV did not lover her, that he thought as he was King he should have the most beautiful Woman at Court as his Mistress (paraphrased) which I always found extremely interesting and shrewd of her. Interesting because She lasted so long! But I came across this about Louis XIV:

The Duchesse de Bourgogne being in the family way this spring, was much inconvenienced. The King wished to go to Fontainebleau at the commencement of the fine season, contrary to his usual custom; and had declared this wish. In the mean time he desired to pay visits to Marly. Madame de Bourgogne much amused him; he could not do without her, yet so much movement was not suitable to her state. Madame de Maintenon was uneasy, and Fagon gently intimated his opinion. This annoyed the King, accustomed to restrain himself for nothing, and spoiled by having seen his mistresses travel when big with child, or when just recovering from their confinement, and always in full dress. The hints against going to Marly bothered him, but did not make him give them up. All he would consent to was, that the journey should put off from the day after Quasimodo to the Wednesday of the following week; but nothing could make him delay his amusement, beyond that time, or induce him to allow the Princess to remain at Versailles.
On the following Saturday, as the King was taking a walk after mass, and amusing himself at the carp basin between the Chateau and the Perspective, we saw the Duchesse de Lude coming towards him on foot and all alone, which, as no lady was with the King, was a rarity in the morning. We understood that she had something important to say to him, and when he was a short distance from her, we stopped so as to allow him to join her alone. The interview was not long. She went away again, and the King came back towards us and near the carps without saying a word. Each saw clearly what was in the wind, and nobody was eager to speak. At last the King, when quite close to the basin, looked at the principal people around, and without addressing anybody, said, with an air of vexation, these few words:

"The Duchesse de Bourgogne is hurt."

M. de la Rochefoucauld at once uttered an exclamation. M. de Bouillon, the Duc de Tresmes, and Marechal de Boufflers repeated in a, low tone the words I have named; and M. de la Rochefoucauld returning to the charge, declared emphatically that it was the greatest misfortune in the world, and that as she had already wounded herself on other occasions, she might never, perhaps, have any more children.

"And if so," interrupted the King all on a sudden, with anger, "what is that to me? Has she not already a son; and if he should die, is not the Duc de Berry old enough to marry and have one? What matters it to the who succeeds me,—the one or the other? Are the not all equally my grandchildren?" And immediately, with impetuosity he added, "Thank God, she is wounded, since she was to be so; and I shall no longer be annoyed in my journeys and in everything I wish to do, by the representations of doctors, and the reasonings of matrons. I shall go and come at my pleasure, and shall be left in peace."

A silence so deep that an ant might be heard to walk, succeeded this strange outburst. All eyes were lowered; no one hardly dared to breathe. All remained stupefied. Even the domestics and the gardeners stood motionless.
This silence lasted more than a quarter of an hour. The King broke it as he leaned upon a balustrade to speak of a carp. Nobody replied. He addressed himself afterwards on the subject of these carps to domestics, who did not ordinarily join in the conversation. Nothing but carps was spoken of with them. All was languishing, and the King went away some time after. As soon as we dared look at each other—out of his sight, our eyes met and told all. Everybody there was for the moment the confidant of his neighbour. We admired—we marvelled—we grieved, we shrugged our shoulders. However distant may be that scene, it is always equally present to me. M. de la Rochefoucauld was in a fury, and this time without being wrong. The chief ecuyer was ready to faint with affright; I myself examined everybody with my eyes and ears, and was satisfied with myself for having long since thought that the King loved and cared for himself alone, and was himself his only object in life.

from Memoirs of Louis XIV and His Court by Duc de Saint-Simon

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/3865/pg3865.html
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: CountessKate on October 23, 2009, 07:27:18 AM
I think it was Antonia Fraser in 'Love and Louis XIV', who suggested that Louis was not so completely selfish as this anecdote suggests - that essentially he felt guilty about having caused the Duchesse de Bourgogne's miscarriage and this outburst was a sort of defensive outburst.  It certainly wasn't true "that the King loved and cared for himself alone, and was himself his only object in life" - he was absolutely shattered by the death of Marie Adelaide and his grandson Louis, and Saint Simon rages for chapter after chapter about his fondness for his bastard children.  It is no doubt true that he was selfish, but it's hardly surprising given that from his birth he had been treated as the centre of the universe, and very few people tended to stand up to him - for example, the Duchesse de Bourgogne in Saint Simon's story did not appear to have voiced an opinion, and Madame de Maintenon was 'uneasy' while Fagon was 'gentle'.  I can't recall that Louis XIV ever over-ruled the doctors again with regard to Marie Adelaide's health - a shame, since they managed to kill her with bleeding, emetics and the help of the measles by the time she was 26. 

I think Madame de Montespan was probably right about Louis XIV's love for her, but I'm not really sure she was in love with him either.  I've always thought Louise de La Valliere was the only woman who truly loved him for himself, insofar as she would have loved him if he wasn't the King of France.  I don't think it really proves that Louis XIV was incapable of loving, although undoubtedly he was inclined to put himself first - but he made quite tender gestures towards Madame de Maintenon for example, and as I said loved at least some of his children and certainly Marie Adelaide.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Mari on October 24, 2009, 03:02:26 AM
I find Louis XIV one of the most interesting of the Kings of France even with all the material I have read I am still trying to make up my mind how deeply he loved! Favored yes.....planned great marriages for.... hoped for honor and glory for his sons..but he inspired an element of fear with that majesty! I note that Saint- Simon refers to the Duc du Maine as that dear son. But it almost seemed as if Madame Maintenon loved them and plotted for them and their titles much more even than the King.

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For some time past Madame de Maintenon, even more than the King, had thought of nothing else than how to raise the remaining illegitimate children, and wished to marry Mademoiselle de Blois (second daughter of the King and of Madame de Montespan) to Monsieur the Duc de Chartres. The Duc de Chartres was the sole nephew of the King, and was much above the Princes of the blood by his rank of Grandson of France, and by the Court that Monsieur his father kept up.
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 With his Mistresses he could seem to capitulate at their tears but he could be absolutely ruthless also. As he got older he seemed to get more sentimental. I am in the process now as to evaluating his feeling for Madame Maintenon and hers for him.
As I said a very interesting King!

Saint Simon mentions (and he revered Louis XIV) that in his anger Louis XIV did this after The Duc de Maine disgraced himself in letting the Enemy slip away through indecision:   

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All our army was in despair, and officers and soldiers made no scruple of expressing their anger and contempt. M. de Villeroy, more outraged than anybody else, was yet too good a courtier to excuse himself at the expense of M. du Maine. He simply wrote to the King, that he had been deceived in those hopes of success which appeared certain the day before, entered into no further details, and resigned himself to all that might happen. The King, who had counted the hours until news of a great and decisive victory should reach him, was very much surprised when this letter came: he saw at once that something strange had happened of which no intelligence had been sent: he searched the gazettes of Holland; in one he read of a great action said to have been fought, and in which M. du Maine had been grievously wounded; in the next the news of the action was contradicted, and M. du Maine was declared to have received no wounds at all. In order to learn what had really taken place, the King sent for Lavienne, a man he was in the habit of consulting when he wanted to learn things no one else dared to tell him.

This Lavienne had been a bath-keeper much in vogue in Paris, and had become bath-keeper to the King at the time of his amours. He had pleased by his drugs, which had frequently put the King in a state to enjoy himself more, and this road had led Lavienne to become one of the four chief valets de chambre. He was a very honest man, but coarse, rough, and free-spoken; it was this last quality which made him useful in the manner I have before mentioned. From Lavienne the King, but not without difficulty, learned the truth: it threw him into despair. The other illegitimate children were favourites with him, but it was upon M. du Maine that all his hopes were placed. They now fell to the ground, and the grief of the King was insupportable: he felt deeply for that dear son whose troops had become the laughing stock of the army; he felt the railleries that, as the gazettes showed him, foreigners were heaping upon his forces; and his vexation was inconceivable.

This Prince, so equal in his manners, so thoroughly master of his lightest movements, even upon the gravest occasions, succumbed under this event. On rising from the table at Marly he saw a servant who, while taking away the dessert, helped himself to a biscuit, which he put in his pocket. On the instant, the King forgets his dignity, and cane in hand runs to this valet (who little suspected what was in store for him), strikes him; abuses him, and breaks the cane upon his body! The truth is, 'twas only a reed, and snapped easily. However, the stump in his hand, he walked away like a man quite beside himself, continuing to abuse this valet, and entered Madame de Maintenon's room, where he remained nearly an hour. Upon coming out he met Father la Chaise. "My father," said the King to him, in a very loud voice, "I have beaten a knave and broken my cane over his shoulders, but I do not think I have offended God." Everybody around trembled at this public confession, and the poor priest muttered a semblance of approval between his teeth, to avoid irritating the King more. The noise that the affair made and the terror it inspired may be imagined; for nobody could divine for some time the cause; and everybody easily understood that that which had appeared could not be the real one. To finish with this matter, once for all, let us add here the saying of M. d'Elboeuf. Courtier though he was, the upward flight of the illegitimate children weighed upon his heart. As the campaign was at its close and the Princes were about to depart, he begged M. du Maine before everybody to say where he expected to serve during the next campaign, because wherever it might be he should like to be there also.
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I think pride had a lot to do with the titling and marriages of his illegitimate Children as well as the need to control the Princes of the Blood and the Peerage.  from Volume I same link

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The Marechal de Boufflers, who had defended Namur, was made Duke, and those who had served under him were variously rewarded. This gave occasion for the Prince of Orange to say, that the King recompensed more liberally the loss of a place than he could the conquest of one. The army retired into winter-quarters at the end of October, and the Generals went to Paris.
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As to Louise de la Valliere I agree with you. I think She truly loved the King I only wish She had entered the Convent a little sooner the second time for her own sake.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: CountessKate on October 25, 2009, 07:12:15 AM
Saint Simon was a brilliant memorialist but not an especially good interpreter of Louis XIV or indeed Madame de Maintenon, the latter of course being coloured by Saint Simon's extreme hatred of her invidious position and her promotion of Louis XIV's bastards.  There is in fact a very good reason why Louis XIV promoted his illigitimate children and intermarried them with the princes of the blood, and that was that Louis only had a single legitimate son and a few nieces to marry dynastically.  He was well aware of the problems of the Fronde and the need to keep the nobility under his thumb - Versailles was an instrument for doing just that as well.  He could not marry his illigitimate children into foreign royal families - he got a very dusty answer from William of Orange when he tried - but he could bribe the Condes and the Contis and the Orleans into these marriages.  Such near alliances gave them a much stronger cause to support the throne, and indeed the medieval Dukes of Burgandy had done exactly the same with their illegitimate offspring for precisely the same reasons.   Madame de Maintenon no doubt loved them (or at least the Duc du Maine) and promoted their interests but she would not have got very far if Louis had not had the same idea and a very good political need.  Saint Simon could not see beyond the fact that he was 'polluting' the royal blood lines with bastardy, and that the rights of the French dukes were being imposed upon, and he interpreted this as Madame de Maintenon's perverted love of Louis' bastards and her evil plotting to somehow pull the wool over his eyes.  But any studies of Madame de Maintenon show that although she did influence Louis XIV, it was hard work and he was no pushover.  If he wanted to promote his illigitimate children he did not do so because of his wife's 'plotting' but because he felt he had good reasons for it which were not to do with sentiment.  And possibly because he was fond of them, although as Mari says it's difficult to know how deeply he loved people.
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 06, 2010, 04:42:14 PM
One story about Louis XIV that is wrong is that he had a certain speech impediment and that by slavishly imitating him his court imposed a uvular r on standard French. Contrary to myth the uvular r only started to spread in the 18th century, and Louis XIV undoubtedly spoke with a rolled r, like an old French peasant from the province today!
Title: Re: King Louis XIV
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 18, 2019, 07:12:38 PM
For those of us who like painting of this period see:
Adam-Frans Van der Meulen
Pierter Meulener
Erasme Quellin
Robert Van den Hoecke
Jean Van Huchtenburg
Karel Breydel
Pieter Ver Dusten
Peter Shalers

and Flemish war artists