Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Prince_Lieven on August 09, 2005, 04:45:34 PM

Title: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 09, 2005, 04:45:34 PM
The only daughter of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, she suvived the revolution and married her first cousin Louis, Duc d'Angouleme, the son of Charles, Comte d'Artois. In 1814 when the monarchy was restored in France, Marie-Therese was in the triumphant procession into Paris. Imagine how she must have felt knowing that the people now cheering her had murdered her parents and brother only 22 years earlier . . .
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: cimbrio on August 09, 2005, 05:49:27 PM
One of History's ironies I suppose... what happened to her afterwards? Any portraits of her? I'm sure there's lots....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 06:22:56 AM
Marie-Therese died in 1851, aged 73. She lived with her Austrian relatives after France became a republic again. She never had any children, and was tormented by people who pretended to be her brother, Louis XVII but always avoided meeting her . . .
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 06:59:45 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/Angouleme.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:07:33 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/Angouleme2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:08:41 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/Angouleme3.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:09:20 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/Angouleme4.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:10:18 AM
Here are some portraits of Marie-Therese!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:30:31 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/LouisXIX.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marc on August 14, 2005, 07:32:00 AM
And one of her husband ''King'' Louis XIX Antoine of France better known as Duc d'Angouleme!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 07:56:52 AM
Thanks you so much for the lurvly pics, Marc. Gosh, look at that one of Louis - looks a little weedy, doesn't he? No wonder he and Marie-Therese had no children.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: cimbrio on August 14, 2005, 09:31:37 AM
Weren't they both already fairly inbred?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 01:59:15 PM
Quote
Weren't they both already fairly inbred?


Well, Marie-Therese's parents weren't actually that inbred in comparison to other royals - Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were 3rd cousins, I beleive. As for her husband, his parents were also 3rd cousins.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Helene on August 15, 2005, 12:13:18 AM
It is the familly tree  ;):

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/picdat/tree.htm

There is a legend who said she was replaced by her sister, but it is the firt time I heard this story  :

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/index.htm
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 04:57:49 AM
Thanks for info, Helene - this theory about substitution seems pretty far fetched. I read Debra Cadbury's 'The Lost King of France' which is in theory a book about her brother but in fact is almost a biography of her, and the substitution theory is not mentioned once.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 15, 2005, 01:07:43 PM
Quote
It is the familly tree  ;):

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/picdat/tree.htm

There is a legend who said she was replaced by her sister, but it is the firt time I heard this story  :

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/index.htm


Thank you for the post of the family tree - my knowledge of the French monarchy is quite poor indeed.  Could someone enlighten me about the rather basic descend of Charles X?  Is it he from whom the late Henri, Count of Paris is descended?  Why was Henri not elevated to a ducal title, as it seems quite common among French royals?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 01:45:31 PM
The late Comte of Paris was the claimant to the French throne. Charles X was the second last King of France. After her was deposed, the French made Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans 'King of the French'. Louis Philippe was descended from 'Monsieur', the younger brother of Louis XIV. Charles's X's male line died out in the 1880s, leaving the (now deposed) Orleans line of Louis Philippe the sole claimants to the throne. The Comte of Paris was the heir of Louis Philippe as his senior male line descendant. . .
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: umigon on August 17, 2005, 05:40:46 AM


In those times there were so many stories about substitutions (Louis XVII supposedly had survived and another child was put in his place (false), Marie Antoinette was safe in Austria when on October 1793 one of her maids was beheaded in her place (false) and then this story about Marie Thérèse, also false)

It was very common in those times inventing this silly little stories. I suppose it was, for them, some kind of 'Hello!' magazine of the time!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 17, 2005, 02:12:56 PM
Quote
The late Comte of Paris was the claimant to the French throne. Charles X was the second last King of France. After her was deposed, the French made Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans 'King of the French'. Louis Philippe was descended from 'Monsieur', the younger brother of Louis XIV. Charles's X's male line died out in the 1880s, leaving the (now deposed) Orleans line of Louis Philippe the sole claimants to the throne. The Comte of Paris was the heir of Louis Philippe as his senior male line descendant. . .


Thanks so much  Prince.  A further question.  If Louis Philippe was Duke of Orleans prior to ascending the throne, then why wouldn't the ducal title have continued downward to the Comte of Paris as head of that line of the family?  Is there a Duke of Orleans today?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 17, 2005, 02:32:35 PM
Chris,

As far as I can see, the Orleanist claimants to the French throne mostly styled themselves as 'King of the French' when they succeeded to their father's claims. During their father's lifetime, they were usually styled Duc de Chatres, Duc de Guise or Comte de Paris. I suppose that the Duc d'Orleans title was inherited from Louis Philippe, and was only held by the man who claimed to be king, and if he was calling himself King he would not use the Orleans title. His children, though, would be styled d'Orleans - e.g. Princess Isabel d'Orleans, and they are known as the House of Orleans.

The late Henri, Comte de Paris (1908-1999) the second most recent claimant, always styled himself by this title, though I don't really know why he never called himself King.  His son Henri (born 1933) is the current claimant, now calling himself Comte de Paris and Duc de France.

So, in answer to your questions, there is no Duc d'Orleans today, though the Comte de Paris may consider it one of his titles.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 19, 2005, 02:57:07 PM
Is anyone aware of a good biography of Marie-Therese? I have searched on and off for years with no luck finding one in English (my French, alas, is non-existent). Thanks in advance for the help.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 21, 2005, 08:48:27 AM
Quote

In French Aristocracry does a Comte rank higher than a Duc?   Could it be they no longer use the title Duc d' Orleans because Phillippe Egalitie was executed holding that title?


That's an interesting idea, Michael. I'm inclined to think that, as in England, a Duc is the highest title - then again, Louis XVI's brothers were title Comte de Provence and Comte d'Artois. surely if Duc was higher they would have been made Ducs? So perhaps you are right . . .
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: trentk80 on August 21, 2005, 09:50:18 PM
Quote

That's an interesting idea, Michael. I'm inclined to think that, as in England, a Duc is the highest title - then again, Louis XVI's brothers were title Comte de Provence and Comte d'Artois. surely if Duc was higher they would have been made Ducs? So perhaps you are right . . .


But as far as I know Louis XVI's brothers, the Comte de Provence and the Comte d'Artois, used these titles before the Revolution and Philippe Egalité's execution. On the other hand, I once read that Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before becoming King of the French in 1830.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: umigon on August 22, 2005, 04:59:45 AM
Yes, Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before ascending to the throne.


The title of Duke I think must be higher than that of Count in every country!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 22, 2005, 05:05:32 AM
Quote
Yes, Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before ascending to the throne.


The title of Duke I think must be higher than that of Count in every country!


Hmmm . . . <chews lip thoughtfully> where's grandduchessella? She probably knows the answer . . .
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 05:56:26 AM
In France:
Emperor, King, Prince of Royal blood, Prince, Duke, Marchis (spell? marquis in French),Comte (Count),  Vidame , Vicomte (Viscount), Baron , Chevalier (Khight), Écuyer (Squire)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 22, 2005, 07:41:54 AM
Quote
In France:
Emperor, King, Prince of Royal blood, Prince, Duke, Marchis (spell? marquis in French),Comte (Count),  Vidame , Vicomte (Viscount), Baron , Chevalier (Khight), Écuyer (Squire)


Thank you sooooooooo much Lisa! BTW, marquis is marquess in English. Just a little question - what is a Vidame? And by Princes not of Royal Blood I assume you mean the likes of the Contis and the Condes?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 08:17:08 AM
Yes, a prince of royal blood is a close member of the royal family(brother, son, uncle...). BTW, in France, when you are a prince, you are a member of the royal family...
I nerver hear avout vidame, but according to this site (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titre_de_noblesse ), it's an old title from the Middle Ages, and it's quite rare!

I found some inforamtions here, but not the translation of the page above..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_nobility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:French_nobility
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 22, 2005, 08:23:14 AM
Thank you so much for that, Lisa. Very informative. How unusual that in the UK, a prince is always a HRH and always a member of the royal family, as opposed to in Germany where princes were HSH and of lower rank than dukes. What was the honorific of the Princes de Conti and Conde? What about Marie-Therese? Was she a HRH? And after her marriage was she still called Madam Royal or always Duchesse d'Angouleme?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 08:41:39 AM
Prince of Condé has the title of First Prince of Royal blood (premier prince du sang) until 1709 and we called him "Monsieur Le Prince". The first Prince of Condé was Louis,Charles IV's 5th son (1489-1537). The Condé's first son was called Duc d'Engien...

Here is the list of the Condés, in French:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Cond%C3%A9
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 08:49:49 AM
The Contis are coming from The Grand Condé (Louis II de Condé (1621-1686). The first Conti , Armand was his brother...

Armand de Bourbon, prince de Conti (1629–1666) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand%2C_Prince_of_Conti
François Louis de Bourbon, prince de Conti (1664–1709) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Fran%C3%A7ois_I%2C_Prince_of_Conti
Louis-François de Bourbon, prince de Conti (1717–1776)

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 08:56:06 AM
I don't know about Madame Royale... :-/ As she was king's daughter, she certainly was HRH...
Here is a little bio in French:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_%28Madame_Royale%29
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 22, 2005, 09:01:51 AM
thanks for the info Lisa. I just wish my French was better!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 10:38:28 AM
It's a real good way to progress!... ;)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: etonexile on August 22, 2005, 11:45:20 AM
It's my understanding that in the French monarchial system....the various heirs of the king go down through his titles...Duke,Count...etc. They are all honourary titles....the gentlemen as such are Princes of France....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Lisa on August 22, 2005, 12:17:14 PM
Hmmm... Its is more complicated...
Exemple:

Jean II le Bon king of France (1350-64)
His sons:  Charles V, king of France (1364-1380)
               Louis I duke of Anjou and King of Sicilia
               Philippe II le Hardi, duke of Burgundy


It is very complicate,and actually I'm not an historian of the French nobility titles and its rules... Moreover, some of the kings has only 1 son (or even not at all!), or some others like Henri II or the Dauphin (1729-1765) has 2 or 3 sons and all of them became kings! :P

a good genealogy: clik on the dynasty you want: http://jfcampio.club.fr/RoisFran.htm
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 22, 2005, 01:09:35 PM
I wonder if Princess Marie-Therese ever met Napoleon III - he became emperor just 2 months after her death.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 07:54:10 AM
Marie-Therese has not had many biographies in English; most of her English biographies are not very good, and sometimes contradictory, but they are worth a read.

Marie-Therese wrote an autobiography of sorts while being held prisoner in the Temple during the French revolution.  I think its published as her Journal, and may have been rereleased in the last few decades.

Imbert de Saint-Amand wrote two biographies of Marie Therese- look for his books on the Duchess of Angouleme, as well as his book on her sister-in-law, the Duchess of Berri.

Ernest Daudet wrote a book about her called "Madame Royale."  It is about her youth and marriage.

Alice Curtis Desmond wrote a biography of her called "Marie Antoinette's daughter."  This book is almost unbelievably awful, but does contain some good information.  

I believe Joan Evans wrote a biography about her, but I have not found a copy yet.

The best biographies are in French.  

The German website listed in this thread about the possibility of Marie Therese being switched with another woman after the French Revolution has an invaluable list of books that discuss Marie Therese, including various Memoirs of courtiers and so forth.  I would recommend using that list as a guide if you want to read more about her.  

Marie Therese and Napoleon never met, but he said that she was the only man in her family.  This was said in admiration; when Napoleon returned from exile for his hundred day last hurrah in France, Marie Therese was the only member of the royal family who attempted to rally the troops in defense of her uncle, Louis XVIII.  

Hope this helps....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 09:59:12 AM
Thanks palatine! I didn't know that last part.

As I said before, 'The Lost King of France' is almost a bio of Marie-Therese, and 'Marie-Antoinette: the Journey' mentions her a lot too.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on October 23, 2005, 01:45:33 PM
I love the portraits posted on this site of Madame Royale, or the Duchess of Angouleme, as she was known after her marriage. The best I have seen anywhere!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 23, 2005, 01:57:32 PM
About Marie Thérèse and HRH.  The important thingwas to be a child or grandchild of a reigning monarch. Until the death of Louis XVIII, Marie Thérèse had precedence over her husband, the Duc d'Angouleme - she was an "enfant de France", and he was only an "arriere petit enfant de France", i.e. the great grandson of Louis XV.

They were both present in the room when Louis XVIII died, and for the first time Marie Thérèse allowed her husband to leave the room first! As he was now the eldest son of a reigning monarch he had precedence.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 01, 2005, 01:31:02 PM
 There are several rumors as to what went wrong with the marriage of Madame Royale with her cousin Angouleme (Louis-Antoine.) I always heard that he was impotent and that the marriage was never consummated. Recently, I heard that the Pope made them take a vow of chastity when they got married because they were first cousins. That sounds far-fetched to me; look at all the Hapsburgs who married their first cousins! Anyone have any information about this?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 01, 2005, 03:41:08 PM
I always heard the impotent story too . . . I agree that the alternative sounds ridiculous.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 01, 2005, 03:52:48 PM
It really does.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 07, 2005, 02:01:59 PM
Quote
It is the familly tree  ;):

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/picdat/tree.htm

There is a legend who said she was replaced by her sister, but it is the firt time I heard this story  :

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/index.htm



The legend of Spohie Batta, the "Dark Countess" is currently being put forth by supporters of the descendants of Naundorff as the reason why the Duchess of Angouleme did not recognize her "brother." It is not a new story, and was circulating during the Restoration. People could not understand how the sad, nervous, tense woman, prone to fainting spells, could be the daughter of the beautiful, charming, vivacious Marie-Antoinette. There was not the same understanding of post-traumatic stress syndrome as there is now, or survivor's guilt, common to those who are the sole survivors of a family disaster.

No one really knows what exactly Marie-Therese was subjected to in the Temple when she was in solitary confinement for a year. The "memoirs" she wrote there were written under the surveillance of a revolutionary spy; Marie-Thererse later disowned them. (Changing the "story" is also common to those who have been through trauma, as over the years they come to remember more that they blocked out and understand more about the implications of the terrible things that occurred in youth.) Before Mme. Elisabeth was killed, she begged Marie-Therese never to let the guards find her undressed or in bed. Since the guards would make surprise visits to her cell at all hours of the day and night, the 16-17 year old princess, Madame Royale of Versailles, would sometimes spend the night in a chair, terrified. (See Memiors of the Duchesse de Gontaut)

When restored to France and the Tuileries in 1814, Marie-Therese wanted everything to be exactly as it was when she had last been there with her family, which was of course, impossible. She was subject to nightmares and hysterical episodes when something would by chance remind her of her family's ordeal. She tried to reverse the gossip about her mother by her own excruciatingly correct deportment and charitable activites, preferring hospitals and orphanages to the ballroom and the opera box, but due to propaganda people by 1830 she was called "Madame Rancune" or "Lady Resentment."

She was haunted by the fate of her brother and never certain that he had died in 1795. A funeral Mass and day of mourning was held for her parents, but there was never anything for Louis XVII. But that is a subject for another discussion....

She never had any children due to her bizarre and unhappy marriage, but loved her niece and nephew, Louise d'Artois and the Comte de Chambord, as her own.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 07, 2005, 02:32:44 PM
A sad, lonely life.  :'(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 07, 2005, 03:05:26 PM
Yes, indeed! But a courageous life, too. She did a lot to rebuild France after all the country had been through with the Revolution and Napoleonic wars.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: RomanovFan on November 11, 2005, 01:37:16 PM
Quote
The only daughter of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette


Actually, wasn't she the oldest daughter? I thought Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI had another daughter, Sophie Beatrix who died at age 1 or something... ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 11, 2005, 02:19:02 PM
 She was the only surviving daughter. Yes, Baby Sophie died in 1787.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 11, 2005, 03:00:32 PM
Quote

Actually, wasn't she the oldest daughter? I thought Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI had another daughter, Sophie Beatrix who died at age 1 or something... ???


Yes, sorry, by 'only' I meant only surviving.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 03:33:57 PM
"The Fatal Friendship" a brilliant book by Stanley Loomis mentions Marie-Therese a lot! Apaprently she inherited both her mothers and Madame Elisabeths jewels.

The book also mentions Count Fersens attempted visits to her after she was released from the Tower.

A very sad life indeed! :(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 11, 2005, 04:37:05 PM
Yes, when she went to opera she went covered with Marie-Antoinette's diamonds. She could be glamorous when she chose to be, every inch a princess.

I do believe Count Fersen visited Marie-Therese on several occasions and they maintained a close friendship until he was lynched by a mob in 1810 (?).
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:08:55 PM
Apparently the first time he saw her after her release was at a ball. She approached him and said something like she was pleased to see he was safe.

He was desperate to talk to her alone, sending requests through her ladies in waiting, but she was very distant towards him. At one point he was invited to see her but on arrival at her found another 20 or so people present. Apparently she looked at him often.

He never did get to talk with her properly and in the end he left and never saw or contacted her again. They were never friends sadly.

I think she was embarrased, especially as she must have been aware of what everyone was saying about his possible relationship with her mother.

Also Madame Elisabeth never approved of him, and many other friends of the Queen, with the exception of the Princess de Lamballe who Madame Elisabeth was very loyal towards.

It is quite likely she passed this dissaproval on to her neice during their long and lonely imprisonment.

I have read most of this in Stanley Loomis's book.  :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 11, 2005, 05:35:13 PM
I read in Loomis's book and elsewhere about Fersen's aborted attempt to see her in Vienna. However, he was able to see her in England at Hartwell House in Buckinghamshire in 1809 and before that they corresponded. Loomis thought that she avoided him in Vienna because of the "affair" he allegedly had with her mother, but I think her Habsburg relatives were just very strict about who she saw, and Fersen was not on the list of people she could recieve, perhaps because of the gossip. He was welcomed by the Bourbons, as they all remembered him from Versailles, as he had been part of the diplomatic corps of Sweden to France. Marie-Therese welcomed him as a friend of both of her parents. (This was in Turquan's biography of the princess, I believe, or else in Miinergeride's "Son of Marie-Antoinette". Fersen, many believe, was helping M-T investigate the fate of her brother, Louis XVII.)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:38:29 PM
That's very interesting, thank you Elena. If they did stay in touch then that is very nice. I wonder what her thoughts where on his death?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 11, 2005, 06:09:03 PM
 You are very welcome, Eddieboy!!  :)I think Marie-Therese was probably horrified because of the violence of Fersen's death (she knew first hand what a mob could be like :'(). Also he had tried to rescue her family by arranging the escape attempt in June 1791, aborted at Varennes :(; she knew him as an old friend. Losing him was probably like losing an uncle, especially since she most likely felt she could trust him and she could not trust some of her relatives.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 04:36:26 AM
Yes i agree Elena  :) :), if he was on good terms with her, it would have been awfuly sad and brought back unhappy memories of her mother.

According to Stanley Loomis after he tired to see her in Vienna and was not particulalry successful he gave up and never contacted her again. But, as you say, if he was able to see her in England at Hartwell House in Buckinghamshire in 1809 that sounds to me like they must have stayed in touch.

Am glad :) :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 12, 2005, 06:49:28 AM
Yes, Eddieboy, that was the impression I got from various other things I have read. Hartwell House is now an inn and spa and I am almost positive I read in their brochure as well that Count Fersen visited there while the Court of Louis XVIII was in residence. They still know which rooms various members of the royal family stayed in. It used to all be on their website, but it has been some years since I checked it.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 06:53:31 AM
Thank you Elena :) I am not that far from Buckinghamshire really, maybe i will take a trip up their sometime.  Apparently many of the rooms are magnificent and much the same :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 12, 2005, 07:14:14 AM
Quote
Thank you Elena :) I am not that far from Buckinghamshire really, maybe i will take a trip up their sometime.  Apparently many of the rooms are magnificent and much the same :)


Yes, it looks like they did an excellent and authentic restoration job! If you get over there, let us know what you discover!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on November 13, 2005, 03:09:01 PM
I've read that the Habsburgs tried their best to limit Marie-Therese's contact with any of the French exiles in Vienna, not just Fersen.  As I recall, the Habsburgs had plans of their own for Marie-Therese, and were considering marrying her to the Archduke Charles.  The Habsburg plans came to nothing, and Marie-Therese was finally allowed to join her uncle Louis XVIII, who she followed from Russia to England during the Bourbon Interregnum, refusing to abandon him and seek a more secure refuge in Vienna, where he was unwelcome.

I believe Marie-Therese refused to attend the funeral of her parents that Louis XVIII held.  Apparently, Marie-Therese had serious doubts that the right bodies had been found.  

Marie-Therese was tormented for most of her life by men claiming to be her brother, Louis XVII.  Marie-Therese quietly investigated the more serious claimants, sending out courtiers with a list of questions that she had drawn up.  I doubt Marie-Therese had much hope, but she continued to investigate.  She never recognized any of the claimants as her brother, though some people criticized her for not doing so, and felt that she was just out for power for herself.  After the Bourbon Restoration, Marie-Therese was recognized as the Dauphine; her detractors claimed that she was too eager to become a Queen to recognize her brother and take a subordinate place.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 13, 2005, 04:31:16 PM
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I've read that the Habsburgs tried their best to limit Marie-Therese's contact with any of the French exiles in Vienna, not just Fersen.  As I recall, the Habsburgs had plans of their own for Marie-Therese, and were considering marrying her to the Archduke Charles.  The Habsburg plans came to nothing, and Marie-Therese was finally allowed to join her uncle Louis XVIII, who she followed from Russia to England during the Bourbon Interregnum, refusing to abandon him and seek a more secure refuge in Vienna, where he was unwelcome.

I believe Marie-Therese refused to attend the funeral of her parents that Louis XVIII held.  Apparently, Marie-Therese had serious doubts that the right bodies had been found.  

Marie-Therese was tormented for most of her life by men claiming to be her brother, Louis XVII.  Marie-Therese quietly investigated the more serious claimants, sending out courtiers with a list of questions that she had drawn up.  I doubt Marie-Therese had much hope, but she continued to investigate.  She never recognized any of the claimants as her brother, though some people criticized her for not doing so, and felt that she was just out for power for herself.  After the Bourbon Restoration, Marie-Therese was recognized as the Dauphine; her detractors claimed that she was too eager to become a Queen to recognize her brother and take a subordinate place.


Yes. Marie-Therese, while in Vienna, came very close to being betrothed to her cousin Archduke Karl, brother of Emperor Francis. The plans came to nothing, and the princess joined her uncle Louis XVIII (in Courland/ Latvia), who enticed her into marrying her pathetic cousin Angouleme by writing love letters in his name. They were married in 1799 and eventually migrated to England, to the above mentioned Hartwell House, after first renting a smaller residence.  The unhappiness of her marriage is well known. They returned to France in 1814.

Marie-Therese was indeed not present at the funeral of her parents. (BTW there are some great photos of the Chapelle Expiatoire on the Princess de Lamballe thread! :)) She spent the day of Jan 21 1815 secluded in her private oratory at the Tuileries, the same oratory that had been Mme Elisabeth's. It was a custom for daughters not to attend the funeral of a parent, although in the case of M-T it may also have been too traumatic; she did not do well in large Parisian crowds. There were rumors that the bodies were not really those of the King and Queen, although Chateaubriand in his "Memoires d'Outre-Tombe" insists that he recognized Marie-Antoinette's jaw from when she once smiled at him at Versailles. However, Marie-Therese later visited  their sepulchres at St Denis, so I do not know how much credence she gave to the rumors.

Marie-Therese felt it was her sacred duty to discover the truth of her brother Louis XVii's fate, and discreetly followed up on any leads. No, she did not give her official recognition to any of the claimants. Once in the spring of 1817, while walking in the gardens of Versailles with her brother-in-law Berry, a shabby young man approached the princess with his hand out, saying, "Sister!" Marie-Therese's reaction shocked Berry and the entourage. She shouted at the young man: "Go AWAY! Go AWAY! It is YOU who destroyed my family!" The stranger ran away into the park and disappeared, leaving his "sister" quite agitated.  This illustrates the inner torment she experienced in matters relating to her brother. (I also posted this anecdote on the Louis XVII thread. It is from Meade Minnergerode's book on the Dauphin, I believe.) IMO, it goes back to some of the ugly things that happened in the Temple prison in 1793.

I think she was concerned, if her brother was alive and found, that he would be incapable of governing France after the horrors perpetrated upon him in the Temple. She backed off on her searching a bit after 1820, not because of her husband but because of her beloved nephew, Henri, Duc de Bordeaux and Comte de Chambord, whom she loved like a son. She really wanted Henri to inherit the throne and no one can blame her; he was a beautiful, intelligent boy and would have made a good ruler. Nevertheless, as late as 1827, when her father-in-law had become King Charles X and she herself was Madame la Dauphine, she was still following up on leads about the fate of her brother, such as when she had the confrontation with Nicole Hervagault, who was said to possess information.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 13, 2005, 05:09:01 PM
Just a theory - perhaps by saying 'you destroyed my family' to the 'Dauphin' Marie-Therese was referring to the young Dauphin's accusations (that he was forced to make) against Marie Anotinette and Mdme Elisabeth, whom he said sexually abused him.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 13, 2005, 05:10:47 PM
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Just a theory - perhaps by saying 'you destroyed my family' to the 'Dauphin' Marie-Therese was referring to the young Dauphin's accusations (that he was forced to make) against Marie Anotinette and Mdme Elisabeth, whom he said sexually abused him.



That is exactly what I think...she had some major unresolved issues with the terrible things that happened to them there.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on December 03, 2005, 08:00:42 AM
It is possible that Marie-Therese believed that her brother's accusations of incest triggered Marie-Antoinette's trial and execution.    

The Temple prison became something of a tourist attraction after Marie-Therese was sent to Vienna.  After Napoleon came to power, he had it torn down so that it would not become a shrine to the royal family.  When Marie-Therese returned to France after Napoleon's fall, she built a chapel on the site where the Temple had once stood, to expiate the evil that happened there.  Unfortunately, neither the chapel nor anything else ever brought her real peace.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 07, 2005, 07:29:04 AM
I agree. It is a shame but I think she never felt the same way about her brother after the abuse allegations and I think she knew deep down he had died but maybe she hoped that just one member of her immediate family was still alive?

It was a pretty awful life I think. Spending her formative years in prison and being separated one by one from her family. She lost everything pretty much apart from her mothers and aunts jewels, and what good is that!

Very sad and very barbaric treatment for someone so young.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 07, 2006, 11:29:10 PM
If you examine original documents, original books published in French, and speak with descendents of Charles X (through the Bourbon Parma line), you'll have a clear picture of Marie Therese Charlotte, duchesse d'Angouleme.   Her husband/cousin was impotent, the marriage was unconsumated (which she tried to disguise by forbidding an autopsy of her body--this was expressly written down in her testament of July, 1851).   She was troubled by doubts about her brother's fate all of her life. Although thought by many to be abrupt and cold, among her friends and loyal adherents of the Bourbons, she was known to be kind and gracious.  By all accounts she was very decisive and possessed her mother's strength of character (and, like her mother, was an accomplished horsewoman).  Napoleon declared, "She's  the only man in the family!" after hearing of her heroic stance at Bordeaux in 1815.  She was devoted to her neice and nephew, who became the Comte de Chambord and the Duchesse de Parme.  Chambord was her universal heir, inheriting her fortune in 1851.   She died at Frohsdorf in Austria.   This property was left to the Comtesse de Chambord, who also inherited a portion of Marie Antoinette's jewels.  Frohsdorf remained in the Bourbon family until 1941.  Marie Therese is interred in the crypt of Castagnavizz, just outside Gorizia, Italy, with five other members of the Bourbon dynasty.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 08, 2006, 07:52:07 AM
A great summary, Frohsdorf!! Have you ever been to Frohsdorf?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 08, 2006, 10:29:24 AM
I was wondering if their are any photographs of Marie Therese?  :)

As the first photo of Queen Victoria is from 1844!! and Marie Therese didn't die until 1851!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 08, 2006, 11:37:40 AM
Yes, I have visited Frohsdorf, Brunnsee, Gorizia, etc, many times.  For many years I kept up a correspondence with Comtesse Blanca de Wurmbrand-Stuppach (1906-1999), the youngest daughter of Princesse Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo, who sold Frohsdorf in 1941.  I also visited her in her later years.   That entire story (the sale of Frohsdorf, the dispersion, sale, and destruction of the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf) is a very sad tale.   I, too, often wondered if Marie Therese Charlotte had ever been photographed.  Madame de Wurmbrand-Stuppach told me a photo never existed at Frohsdorf.  There were many portrait miniatures on ivory, but no photographs.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 08, 2006, 01:05:50 PM
Frohsdorf, I would love to hear more about your visits to Frohsdorf and Gorizia, etc, and the tragic sale of the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf. What a shame! I always heard that the Comte de Chambord had a magnificent library! What do you think about the legend of the "Dark Countess?"
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 08, 2006, 08:27:51 PM
The "Dark Countess" story of Hildburghausen is a legend with no basis in fact.  The town, however, does keep the tale alive---there are booklets, etc, one can purchase in the small  museum there.  The lady's grave can still be seen on  a hillside outside of town. I visited Hildburghausen about two or three years ago.  

According to the legend, Marie Therese was substituted for another girl upon her release from the Temple Tower in December, 1795.  Well, Fersen saw and spoke with her in Vienna in 1796, carefully noting his impressions in his journal.  He recognized her as the girl he last saw in 1791.  Later, when she joined her uncle in Mittau in 1799, Louis XVIII wrote a private letter to the Comte d'Artois, in which he stated, "She so perfectly recalls both her mother and her father...."  Then in 1814, upon returning to France, she met again Pauline de Tourzel, Comtesse de Bearn, daughter of her old governess, and exclaimed, "Oh, it's Pauline!"---an imposter probably wouldn't have recognized Marie Therese's old childhood friend.  Finally, one need only examine the portraits at Versailles by Baron Gros and other artists---she most definitely resembles both Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette.  Also, keep in mind, that her cousin, Francis II, would NEVER have turned over to an imposter the money and jewels smuggled out of the country by the King and Queen of France in 1791.

The Hildburghausen mystery is interesting.  But the "Dark Countess" definitely was not Marie Therese Charlotte de France.

As for Frohsdorf and its contents----

Prince Don Jaime de Bourbon (1870-1931), Duc de Madrid,  inherited the entire estate and the contents of the chateau upon the death of the Comtesse de Chambord in 1886.  He took up residence there in 1909, upon his father's death---which made him the Head of the Royal House of Bourbon.   He was not especially wealthy, so maintaining the vast building, the grounds,  the royal collections, etc, was often difficult.  One of the first things he sold was the magnificent silver service of Charles X, as well as the adjoining property of Katzelsdorf.

Many items were stolen during World War I.  When Don Jaime died in 1931, he left Frohsdorf and the remaining collection to his sister, Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo.  Almost immediately, another sister, Archduchess Blanca of Austria, brought suit in court for what she believed to be her share of the estate.  After much needless expense, the property of Pitten was turned over to Blanca (Katzelsdorf, Frohsdorf, and Pitten all belonged to the Duchesse d'Angouleme, then the Comtesse de Chambord, etc).  The library of the Comte de Chambord was removed from Frohsdorf in 1935 and sold by Maggs Brothers of London.  Then, in 1937 at Sothebys in London, Marie Antoinette's magnificent diamond necklace was sold by the two sisters.  Finally, in 1938 (also at Sothebys in London), the art and paintings were removed from Frohsdorf and sold by Princess de Bourbon-Massimo.  The sale was a disaster, with extremely low prices realized.  Also, many items held back for exhibition only were completely destroyed when the Germans bombed London.

Princess Massimo and her daughters remained at Frohsdorf through Hitler's Anschluss, but they saw the writing on the wall and finally sold the entire property to the German Reichpost in April, 1941.  What remained (and it wasn't much) was smuggled to Italy and Vienna.  When WWII ended, they returned to Frohsdorf (part of the grounds and a few outbuildings still remained in the Princess' possession).  Unfortunately, Austria came under foreign occupation and Frohsdorf was in the Russian zone.  Russian soldiers plundered Frohsdorf and many remaining Bourbon possessions were burned in the courtyard of the chateau, including the large crucifix of the Duchesse d'Angouleme and portraits of the Comte and Comtesse de Chambord.   The family then left Austria for Italy.  When Princess Massimo died in 1961, her youngest daughter, Countess Blanca de Wurmbrand-Stuppach, took up residence in a large house that was once part of the Frohsdorf estate.  She died there in 1999.  Princess Massimo had three other daughters.   These four girls inherited what remained of the French Royal collection.  Very little escaped both World Wars and the Russian occupation in 1945.  And, of course, there were the sales at Sothebys, as well.


Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 09, 2006, 06:46:39 PM
Thank you, Frohsdorf, for your utterly fascinating account! Oh, I wish I could have talked to you about eight years ago!!

I agree with you about the Dark Countess story.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 09, 2006, 11:00:15 PM
Yes, the story of Frohsdorf is fascinating and very tragic.  What a magnificent museum it would have made today!  I visited Comtesse Blanca Wurmbrand-Stuppach on a few occasions and corresponded with her for years.  I got to know her when she already an elderly lady, but she was very  lively and intelligent.  Even in her later years she was contacted by people claiming to be descendents of Louis XVII---in fact, believing that I was another one, she at first was reluctant to meet me.  She also held a deep aversion to the Orleans family.  
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 10, 2006, 07:34:49 AM
Thank you so much  :) What an interesting and amazing story!! If only in was a museum now with all those lovely things relating to the Bourbons. It's sad to think they were all divided up and went back out into the world!!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 10, 2006, 02:06:11 PM
   I am a great fan of Royals, and Marie Therese is among my favourite maybe because she is French as myself. Anyways in the biographies I have read of her and her mother,  I remember, that she is portrayed as a child as a very self conscious person, well aware of her rank and royal blood. She seems to lack Marie Antoinette´s affability and gentleness.
 
  I also had the Impression that her mother´s favourite was a youger brother Louis Charles "Chou d amour".

  I do not want to enter the polemic on her substitution, but it seems striking to me that she seemed to get along so well with her uncle Louis XVIII when he was one of his mother´s enemy.

  Louis XVIII made her beleived that her engagement was something her parents wanted, when it now prove to be a lie, since the Duc d angouleme was to be engaged offcialy to one of the princess of the colateral line. I can t remember if it was a Conde Princess!

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 10, 2006, 02:11:41 PM
Welcome Sissi! :D

Quote
 
  
   I also had the Impression that her mother´s favourite was a youger brother Louis Charles "Chou d amour".




I got this impression too.  ;) But then she did say when Marie-Therese was born that she would always be special to her, since a son would have belonged to the state.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 10, 2006, 02:24:52 PM
Thank you!!!!!!It a pleasure to be among passionates!!!! ;D

  I remember reading somewhere, that Mousseline as her mother called her was, less affectionate than chou d amour, and that somehow the princess was badly influenced against her mother by her entourage.

 the same case happen with the first Dauphin who had a solid dislike of Madame de Polignac, and taht dislike was somehow extended to the Queen.


 
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 10, 2006, 02:31:03 PM
I believe that it s a waste that she marry that poor man. I think she had waht it take to make a good Queen, she had courage, she had a sense of duty her mother did not have when she was young!
 Poor thing!how sad she married that man!!!!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 10, 2006, 02:41:41 PM
Just a thought, but does anyone think it would have been better if she had married the younger brother, the Duke de Berry?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 10, 2006, 02:59:32 PM
Most probably yes!

  We will never know for sure if the Duc d Angouleme´s impotence was known before his mariage.
 But if it was the case, the Frech Crown lost an asset I believe. her talent, her blood might have been more productive and beneficial ti the Crown if she had married a NORMAL man.
 
  Actually the point is not sho she did not marry, but who she did marry.
She was a propaganda tool for Louis XVIII. However Louis XVIII never had a long vision of thing.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on January 10, 2006, 04:36:29 PM
It might have been best if Marie-Therese had been allowed to marry one of the sons of the Duke of Orleans, since an alliance might have kept Philippe-Egalite out of mischief.  Such a marriage was discussed when Marie-Therese was a child.  When her parents decided against arranging the Orleans marriage for her, it cemented Philippe-Egalite's hatred of Marie-Therese's parents.  

Marie-Therese had a distant relationship with her mother, but she absolutely adored her father.  She seems to have been Louis XVI's favorite child, probably because she was the firstborn.  There is a report that she sadly asked her father once if he had been disappointed when she was born, since she was a girl, but he reassured her and said that he wouldn't have had her any different.  

I don't find it surprising that Marie-Therese clung to her uncle Louis XVIII, since he was her last link to her father.    
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 10, 2006, 06:32:20 PM
I have read various accounts indicating that Madame Royale was distant and cold with her mother when she was child---which definitely could have been the result of outside influences.  However, IF this was the case, their relationship changed dramatically as the girl grew older, especially when they were imprisoned in the Temple Tower.  

Marie Therese always venerated her mother's memory.   She died on October 19, 1851, three days after the anniversary of her mother's execution, and on October 15th, on her deathbed, very ill with pneumonia, she declared, "Nothing shall prevent me from going to the chapel tomorrow to pray for the soul of my mother."  Her mother's portrait by Vigee-Lebrun always hung in a place of honor in her private apartments at Frohsdorf.

As for her marriage----yes, in some ways, it was the tragedy of her life.  She married Angouleme assuming it was the final wish of her parents.   The fact that he could not give her children definitely had an impact on her character.  However, she  was devoted to her young niece and nephew and always considered them her own children.  In fact, she stated this in her testament of July, 1851.

She certainly would have made a decisive and imposing sovereign in many ways.  
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 11, 2006, 08:16:08 AM
Definetely Marie Therese was distant to her mother, she was rather cold, in my opinion it could have that she was in fact influence by her entourage against her mother as was the first Dauphin.
 Or that she knew so well her place as Daughter of France that she might have found any affection demosntration out of place, if you read Madame d Oberkich memoirs she is portrayed as a little person very aware of her rank and status.
  I did not know that she grew closer to her mother during captivity.

    But I do have read that as an adult she barely spoke of her mother, and when she did it was to criticize her.

    Actually this was among the reasons people thought she was another person. The Duchess d Angouleme was found cold, distant, not elegant at all, lacking her mother´s charm.

   Does any of you know another reason for which she could have been so distant to her mother.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 11, 2006, 09:20:04 AM
You are incorrect in your assessment of Marie Therese's relationship with Marie Antoinette.  I have read Oberkirch's memoirs, which mention Mde. Royale as a child.

I have studied the French royal family both before, during, and after the Revolution in great detail for many years and have met and corresponded with members of the Bourbon-Parma family, as well.  

As a good introduction to Mde. Royale after her release from the Temple and before her marriage, you may want to read Ernest Daudet's book, "Madame Royale", which contains excerpts from original letters.  For instance,  Marie Therese at first refused to have to anything to do with the Comtesse de Provence, "believing her to be the late Queen's enemy, and consequently her own"----which definitely shows esteem and loyalty to her mother's memory.

Furthermore, she fainted upon seeing Marie Antoinette's final letter when it finally reappeared during the Restoration.   Yes---she was cold and distant when presented with it, because she rightly assumed that someone was in it for money.  Which proved to be true----the man expected renumeration from the Bourbon government..

One thing to keep in mind is that many memoirs and chronicles were written by people who did not know her well or who were turncoats, opportunists, and traitors.  In 1814-1815 there were dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Bonaparte nobles who expected to be treated favorably and with respect by the Bourbon family.  

Marie Therese was definitely cold and disdainful with many of these people----they were not loyal to her family, they were opportunists, and some were even former Revolutionaries.  She was extremely kind and gracious with nobles who had served her family during the many years of exile, or who had remained loyal to the Bourbons during Bonaparte's glory days.  Unfortunately, many of the memoirs of the time were written by former members of Bonaparte's court.

During her final years, one member of her household exclaimed, "We found her to be kind, and anxious to please everyone."

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 11, 2006, 09:59:00 AM

I thank you for your insight! ::) Do you have an idea why she might have been distant during her childhood???

 


Quote
You are incorrect in your assessment of Marie Therese's relationship with Marie Antoinette.  I have read Oberkirch's memoirs, which mention Mde. Royale as a child.

I have studied the French royal family both before, during, and after the Revolution in great detail for many years and have met and corresponded with members of the Bourbon-Parma family, as well.  

As a good introduction to Mde. Royale after her release from the Temple and before her marriage, you may want to read Ernest Daudet's book, "Madame Royale", which contains excerpts from original letters.  For instance,  Marie Therese at first refused to have to anything to do with the Comtesse de Provence, "believing her to be the late Queen's enemy, and consequently her own"----which definitely shows esteem and loyalty to her mother's memory.

Furthermore, she fainted upon seeing Marie Antoinette's final letter when it finally reappeared during the Restoration.   Yes---she was cold and distant when presented with it, because she rightly assumed that someone was in it for money.  Which proved to be true----the man expected renumeration from the Bourbon government..

One thing to keep in mind is that many memoirs and chronicles were written by people who did not know her well or who were turncoats, opportunists, and traitors.  In 1814-1815 there were dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Bonaparte nobles who expected to be treated favorably and with respect by the Bourbon family.  

Marie Therese was definitely cold and disdainful with many of these people----they were not loyal to her family, they were opportunists, and some were even former Revolutionaries.  She was extremely kind and gracious with nobles who had served her family during the many years of exile, or who had remained loyal to the Bourbons during Bonaparte's glory days.  Unfortunately, many of the memoirs of the time were written by former members of Bonaparte's court.

During her final years, one member of her household exclaimed, "We found her to be kind, and anxious to please everyone."


Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 11, 2006, 07:33:26 PM
I agree with Frohsdorf on this. I do not think that there is ANY evidence that M-T was distant from M-A, EVER. And I have read just about everything about her in print, in English and some in French. The little princess adored her mother, although it could not compare with the closeness she had with her Papa. She and Louis XVI were SO much alike, but that did not mean she was distant from her mother. Marie-Antoinette herself supervised Madame Royale's education at Versailles. If anything, there may have been a mother-daughter tension which is very natural, the daughter rebelling against the mother's strictness. M-A was known to be strict (but not harsh or cruel) with M-T because she did not want her to be like herself (distracted and unable to concentrate on study) but she wanted her daughter to be a serious, educated princess, devoted to the poor, which is excatly what she became.  There is the account of how at Epiphany, M-A showed M-T many beautiful toys, but then told her they were all going to the orphans and paupers. It was to teach her that the people came first. There are many similar anecdotes.

M-A as a girl hardly saw her own mother the Empress; she was determined that her daughter would be  kept with her as much as possible, and she was.

There was some talk of Madame Royale becoming betrothed to young Louis-Phillippe de Chartres d' Orleans as children, but Marie-Antoinette would have none of it. She thought the Duc d'Orleans too awful. So there was a betrothal ceremony at Petit Trianon of Madame Royale with Angouleme. They had no idea then that he would be unable to sire children. During her exile in Vienna, Provence (Louis XVIII) convinced her to honor the earlier betrothal, much to her own misery.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 11, 2006, 07:39:24 PM
Quote
  I am a great fan of Royals, and Marie Therese is among my favourite maybe because she is French as myself. Anyways in the biographies I have read of her and her mother,  I remember, that she is portrayed as a child as a very self conscious person, well aware of her rank and royal blood. She seems to lack Marie Antoinette´s affability and gentleness.
  
   I also had the Impression that her mother´s favourite was a youger brother Louis Charles "Chou d amour".

   I do not want to enter the polemic on her substitution, but it seems striking to me that she seemed to get along so well with her uncle Louis XVIII when he was one of his mother´s enemy.

   Louis XVIII made her beleived that her engagement was something her parents wanted, when it now prove to be a lie, since the Duc d angouleme was to be engaged offcialy to one of the princess of the colateral line. I can t remember if it was a Conde Princess!



Goodness, where did you get the idea that she got on well with Louis XVIII?? Not at all!!! They were politically opposed and the intrigues at the Tuileries after the Restoration were tremendously byzantine. Once the fat old uncle knocked her down in front of the entire Court. But M-T was faithful to him as the head of the family and as the de facto sovereign  - "the French Antigone" they called her. But that did not mean she liked him or agreed with him, "the Crowned Jacobin" as he was called. Marie-Therese was a woman of the highest virtue and loyalty to a heroic degree!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 12, 2006, 01:42:43 AM
Quote

Goodness, where did you get the idea that she got on well with Louis XVIII?? Not at all!!! They were politically opposed and the intrigues at the Tuileries after the Restoration were tremendously byzantine. Once the fat old uncle knocked her down in front of the entire Court. But M-T was faithful to him as the head of the family and as the de facto sovereign  - "the French Antigone" they called her. But that did not mean she liked him or agreed with him, "the Crowned Jacobin" as he was called. Marie-Therese was a woman of the highest virtue and loyalty to a heroic degree!



This is correct. She was indeed opposed to the policies of Louis XVIII, which she saw as too liberal by half. She was more of an "Ultra", like her father in law the Comte d'Artois. The Ultras were convinced that the only way forward was to restore the "ancien régime" in it's entirety. For the Ultras Louis XVIII's pragmatic approach
was that of a "crowned Jacobin" and the duchesse of Angouleme was stylised as the true representative of the royal family (i.e. "Antigone").

When Charles X ascended the throne, the Ultras took power. However it took them only six years to mess things up!

I find it characteristic that she never had her photograph taken - she was always trying to put the clock back half a century. Contrast with (ex-) Empress Eugenie, who flew in an aeroplane before she died.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 12, 2006, 02:37:16 AM
Thanks for the info about any possible photographs, I suppose it would seem not, what a shame!  :)

I did read that Marie-Therese cared for Rosalie, the servant girl from the Conciegrie (sp?) and found a place for her in a home for incurables and Rosalie would talk of the generosity of M-T any one have any more info? thanks :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 07:00:14 AM
Quote
Just a thought, but does anyone think it would have been better if she had married the younger brother, the Duke de Berry?



Marie-Therese and Berry were both on the Ultra-Royalist side, with Artois, and so they would have that in common, whereas Angouleme was allied with Louis XVIII.  Therese and Angouleme quarrelled about politics all the time. She may have been happier with Berry (had she married him instead) if she could have gotten him away from Amy Brown. But it never would have happened, because Angouleme was the heir and the older brother, and if she married one of them it had to be him.

I personally think that she would have been happier had she married Louis-Phillippe, but her cousin Marie-Amelie married him. And she would perhaps have been happiest with Archduke Karl von Habsburg, who had been in love with her in Vienna. But who can say?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 07:07:04 AM
Quote
Thanks for the info about any possible photographs, I suppose it would seem not, what a shame!  :)

I did read that Marie-Therese cared for Rosalie, the servant girl from the Conciegrie (sp?) and found a place for her in a home for incurables and Rosalie would talk of the generosity of M-T any one have any more info? thanks :)


Marie-Therese was extremely generous and took care of many old servants and  other people who had been kind to her family in their hour of need.  She had many pensioners. I don't recall the details of what help she gave Rosalie.  I know she went to visit Madame Simon (evil Simon's wife) at Des Incurables in  Dec 1814, although that was mostly to question her about what happened to Louis XVII in the Temple.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 07:12:40 AM
Quote
    
   I also had the Impression that her mother´s favourite was a youger brother Louis Charles "Chou d amour".

  


I think that Charles received the indulgence often given to the baby of the family. He was a charming, affectionate, and vivacious child (he had the queen's personality.)  But I do not think she had favorites among her children. She playfully called Therese her "Mousseline la serieuse."
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on January 12, 2006, 10:28:27 AM
I think Louis-Charles was his mother's favorite because he became the all-important heir after the death of his older brother.  He inherited his mother's vivacity, extroverted nature, and charm, which pleased his mother but also made her worry, since she wanted him to be a good king.  Louis-Charles quite naturally absorbed a lot of Marie Antoinette's attention since he was the living symbol of her hopes for the future.

Marie-Therese's relative lack of dynastic importance made her much less important in her mother's eyes, although, as Elena says, Marie Antoinette carefully supervised her education and spent time with her.  Marie-Therese's introversion and shyness may have frustrated Marie Antoinette, who knew what handicaps these qualities were for a royal, since Louis XVI was the embodiment of them.  On her side, Marie-Therese probably heard gossip about her mother that may have encouraged her to believe that the rapidly destabilizing political situation was largely due to her mother's unpopularity.  

When a mob surrounded Versailles and demanded that Marie Antoinette must show herself, Marie-Therese and her brother accompanied her when she complied.  Marie-Therese listened to the people scream abuse at her mother for a few painful minutes until the mob demanded that the children be sent inside.  It must have been an incredibly traumatic experience, since she may have believed that her mother was about to be murdered.  

I think as a result of that and other experiences, Marie-Therese came to feel very protective of her mother.  During their imprisonment at the Temple, it was Marie-Therese who searched out a vantage point that would allow Marie Antoinette to watch Louis-Charles play in the courtyard after he was separated from them.  

During the years that Marie-Therese lived alone in the Temple, she scratched a few messages into the walls of her room, including one to the effect that she was the unhappiest girl in the world since she did not know what had become of her mother.  She only learned of her mother's execution long after it happened.

It’s true that Marie-Therese rarely mentioned her mother in later years, but she never wore her heart on her sleeve.    
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 12, 2006, 11:00:57 AM
Thanks Elena!!  :) :-* very interesting.

Didn't the Duchess de Tourzel break the new of all the executions? or perhaps it was another lady who was appointed as companion while she was in the temple?

I do not see why M-T would not of mentioned her mother much in later years other than it being emotional painful? I can well believe Marie Antoinette being a good mother.

I don't doubt M-T was emotionally scarred by her experiences having experienced such pain in her childhood.  :'(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on January 12, 2006, 11:23:44 AM
Marie-Therese learned of her mother's execution from a young woman named Madeleine Bocquet-Chanterenne, who was sent to live with her at the Temple in 1795 as a companion.  Marie-Therese did not know it, but Madeleine had been ordered to spy on her.  

According to Ernest Daudet's biography, after Madeleine introduced herself to Marie-Therese, they had the following conversation.

"What of my mother?" asked Madame Royale.

"You have no mother."

"And my aunt?"

"She is dead."

"And my brother?"

"He, too, died a week ago."

Marie-Therese had been incredibly lonely during her imprisonment.  She befriended Madeleine, and called her "my dear Renete."  A few months later, Marie-Therese was allowed to meet with Madame de Tourzel, who probably gave her more information than Madeleine was willing to do.  Tourzel also smuggled letters from Louis XVIII to Marie-Therese, which seem to have convinced her that her duty was to rejoin him as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 12, 2006, 01:02:18 PM
I'm go glad that many participants on this site are able to look beneath appearances to discern the true personality of Marie Therese Charlotte.    She was a remarkable woman in many respects----far too much hearsay and rumors have been written about her.  A well-researched and comprehensive biography in English is long overdue!  My personal opionion is that she would have made a better sovereign than either of her uncles, Louis XVIII or Charles X.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 12, 2006, 01:17:06 PM
Quote
A well-researched and comprehensive biography in English is long overdue!  My personal opionio is that she would have made a better sovereign than either of her uncles, Louis XVIII or Charles X.
 


I agree! Marie-Therese is one of my favourite royals!  :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 01:22:36 PM
 Thanks, Eddieboy! Yes, it was Madeleine "Renette" who broke the news of her family's demise to Marie-Therese, exactly as Palatine describes. Renette was also a spy for the government, which M-T did not discover until years later, which is why after the Restoration she tried to buy up all the copies of her "Memoirs" which she had written under Renette's guidance, in order to destroy them. Madame de Tourzel and Pauline did not come to her until she was about to be released and sent to Vienna.

In the memoirs of various courtiers that I have read, Marie-Therese spoke of both of her parents and her beloved Aunt Elisabeth with great reverence. At Frohsdorf at her prie-dieu she kept a special reliquary of the shirt her father wore at the guillotine, covered with his blood; the lace cap crocheted by Marie-Antoinette in prison, and the scarf blown off of Madame Elizabeth's shoulders while ascending the scaffold. She lit candles in front of these objects everyday while at her religious devotions.

If she appeared to show restraint in discussing her mother (as some claim), perhaps it was because of the way Marie-Antoinette's name had been dragged through the mud. M-T was standing there on the balcony and sitting in the carriage when her mother was called a "whore" and every obscenity, as well as the times the palace was stormed.  She heard and saw things that no child should hear or see in reference to a parent. The young girl was herself subjected to crude and invasive language (and God only knows what else) from the jailers in prison. She had certainly heard that her mother was guillotined right after a notorious prostitute with another prostitute right behind, to show the populace that the queen was just one more harlot. She was known to faint at the mention of her father's name and I think in the case of her mother it was also an unbearable subject to discuss. Too many painful memories....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 01:36:51 PM
Quote
       Louis XVIII made her beleived that her engagement was something her parents wanted, when it now prove to be a lie, since the Duc d angouleme was to be engaged offcialy to one of the princess of the colateral line. I can t remember if it was a Conde Princess!



Yes, Angouleme before the Revolution had been more or less engaged to Mlle Adelaide d' Orleans, which is why some said Adelaide (Louis-Phillippe's sister) disliked Marie-Therese. Adelaide never married and M-T may as well not have, but she did have a position of influence that Adelaide may have coveted.

Angouleme became more conservative and allied with his father Artois after Berry's assasination and Louis XVIII' s demise, which had fatal consequences for the dynasty. They both (Charles X and Louis Antoine) backed the ordinances that brought on the July 1830 Revolution. They waited until Marie-Therese went to Vichy to take the waters before launching their disastrous program, although she had begged her uncle/father-in-law not to sign anything while she was gone. But they did not listen to her. Chateaubriand lamented that M-T could not become the queen regnant, and he was right, because she had prudence and will-power that the men in her family lacked.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 01:44:45 PM
Quote
I'm go glad that many participants on this site are able to look beneath appearances to discern the true personality of Marie Therese Charlotte.    She was a remarkable woman in many respects----far too much hearsay and rumors have been written about her.  A well-researched and comprehensive biography in English is long overdue!  My personal opionio is that she would have made a better sovereign than either of her uncles, Louis XVIII or Charles X.
 


Yes, there does need to be an up-to-date serious biography written about Marie-Therese. (Sorry, the best I could do was a historical novel  ;), which at least introduces the American reader to the idea of her.) But someone needs to do an exhaustive, comprehensive, scholarly work based on family archives, etc. She was a very influential princess and a great deal of history happened because of the strings she pulled behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Paul on January 12, 2006, 04:55:59 PM
Quote
 My personal opionio is that she would have made a better sovereign than either of her uncles, Louis XVIII or Charles X.
 


I heartily agree. Marie Therese would've made a very acceptable queen. So many French princesses would've probably done better than had many of their male relatives. Anne, daughter of Louis XI, and Renee, daughter of Louis XII, also come to mind.

Alas: that blasted Salic Law!

On the other hand: the Salic Law rendered Marie Therese relatively unimportant, politically. She couldn't, by Legitimist standards, claim the crown in her own right. She couldn't transmit a claim to the throne to heirs of her body. The revolutionary gore hounds lost no advantage in ransoming and releasing her.
It's ironic that, in this case, institutional sexism probably saved her life.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 06:31:25 PM
That is so true, Paul. If not for the Salic Law, Marie-Therese would have been killed during the Revolution!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: palatine on January 12, 2006, 06:43:08 PM
Marie-Therese could have claimed the kingdom of Navarre in her own right, since she had a better claim to that throne than either of her uncles.  When Henri of Navarre decided that Paris was worth a mass and became Henri IV of France, he did not merge the two crowns, but kept Navarre as a separate kingdom with its own laws.  The Salic Law only applied to France.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 12, 2006, 07:48:34 PM
That is true, Marie-Therese could have claimed the crown of Navarre. It was suggested to her by Chateaubriand, but she declined to claim her rights.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 12, 2006, 09:35:30 PM
Here is a list of books in English that will serve as a good introduction to the life of the Duchesse d'Angouleme:

"Madame Royale" by Joseph Turquan
"Daughter of Louis XVI" by George Lenotre
"Madame Royale" by Ernest Daudet
"Dauphines of France" by Frank Hamel
"Marie Antoinette's Daughter" by Alice Curtis Desmond
"Memoirs of the Duchesse de Tourzel"
"Youth of the Duchesse d'Angouleme" by Imbert de Saint-Amand
"Duchesse d'Angouleme and the Two Restorations" by Imbert de Saint-Amand.
"Memoirs of the Comtesse de Boigne"
"Memoirs of the Duchesse de Gontaut"

I highly recommend the books by Daudet, Turquan, and Lenotre.  The Desmond book has some interesting information but is highly fictionalized.

The best book in  French is "Madame Royale" or "The Secret of Madame Royale" by Andre Castelot (same book but different editions).



Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 13, 2006, 01:25:15 AM
Quote
Marie-Therese could have claimed the kingdom of Navarre in her own right, since she had a better claim to that throne than either of her uncles.  When Henri of Navarre decided that Paris was worth a mass and became Henri IV of France, he did not merge the two crowns, but kept Navarre as a separate kingdom with its own laws.  The Salic Law only applied to France.


She could have claimed the title, but it would have been meaningless as the separate institutions of Navarre had been abolished in 1789-90. A resurrection of separate privileges for Navarre after 1814 would have been politically very complicated, as other areas had also lost their "independence" in the revolution (the Comtat Venaissin for example.

The Estates of Navarre voted to abolish the Salic law in 1789, but this change was never put into force as Navarre ceased to exist as a political entity shortly afterwards. Louis XVIII and Charles X called themselves "King of France and Navarre" but Navarre was no longer a separate kingdom.

So Marie Therese was wise not to consider any such thing.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 02:20:49 AM
A book came out a few years ago about the dauphin and what had actually happened to him. It is a great read and mentions quite a bit M-T's later years  :). I don't have the book with me so i'm sorry i cant remember the name.  :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 13, 2006, 07:29:22 AM
Quote



Angouleme became more conservative and allied with his father Artois after Berry's assasination and Louis XVIII' s demise, which had fatal consequences for the dynasty. They both (Charles X and Louis Antoine) backed the ordinances that brought on the July 1830 Revolution. They waited until Marie-Therese went to Vichy to take the waters before launching their disastrous program, although she had begged her uncle/father-in-law not to sign anything while she was gone. But they did not listen to her. Chateaubriand lamented that M-T could not become the queen regnant, and he was right, because she had prudence and will-power that the men in her family lacked.


It was Polignac who was behind the ordinances. Maybe M-T did not like him because she had taken a dislike to his mother as a child? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 13, 2006, 08:17:44 AM
It is probable that she did not like madame de Polignac. I know for a fact that the first Dauphin had a dislike for the Duchess, in that sense he was influenced by his governor Monsieur d Harcourt. There is an anecdote that once when he was sick in bed, His mother came to visit him with the Duchess and the little prince told her to go away because he could not stand her perfume.....
    But she was wearing NO PERFUME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 08:32:14 AM
Quote

It was Polignac who was behind the ordinances. Maybe M-T did not like him because she had taken a dislike to his mother as a child? Anyone know?


M-T did not detest Polignac in the same way she had previously detested Decazes and other politicians and officials. In fact, I don't know that she  detested him as a person (he was a devout Catholic and she liked that); she just was very acutely aware of the flammable situation in France with the recent famines and unemployment (deja-vu?) and she dreaded where Polignac was going to lead CharlesX. (So did Talleyrand which is why he changed sides and gave his support to Louis-Phillippe.)

Mme. de Polignac was more of the Dauphin's governess than she was Madame Royale's. (Therese was cared for by the sub-gouvernante, Madame Mackau. ) The reason Marie-Antoinette had Mme de Polignac as governess was that they were close friends and the queen wanted to raise her children herself and she knew that Gabrielle would not assert the rights of Madame la Gouvernante, which was an official position in the kingdom. I do not think Therese disliked Gabrielle but she did not love her the way she loved Mme de Tourzel and Mme Mackau.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 08:36:14 AM
Quote
Here is a list of books in English that will serve as a good introduction to the life of the Duchesse d'Angouleme:

"Madame Royale" by Joseph Turquan
"Daughter of Louis XVI" by George Lenotre
"Madame Royale" by Ernest Daudet
"Dauphines of France" by Frank Hamel
"Marie Antoinette's Daughter" by Alice Curtis Desmond
"Memoirs of the Duchesse de Tourzel"
"Youth of the Duchesse d'Angouleme" by Imbert de Saint-Amand
"Duchesse d'Angouleme and the Two Restorations" by Imbert de Saint-Amand.
"Memoirs of the Comtesse de Boigne"
"Memoirs of the Duchesse de Gontaut"

I highly recommend the books by Daudet, Turquan, and Lenotre.  The Desmond book has some interesting information but is highly fictionalized.

The best book in  French is "Madame Royale" or "The Secret of Madame Royale" by Andre Castelot (same book but different editions).





Be careful of the Alice Curtis Desmond book. As Frohsdorf says, there is stuff in there that is fabricated. It really is more of a novel than a serious bio, although it has great pictures and loads of information.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on January 13, 2006, 08:51:10 AM
Quote

M-T did not detest Polignac in the same way she had previously detested Decazes and other politicians and officials. In fact, I don't know that she  detested him as a person (he was a devout Catholic and she liked that); she just was very acutely aware of the flammable situation in France with the recent famines and unemployment (deja-vu?) and she dreaded where Polignac was going to lead CharlesX. (So did Talleyrand which is why he changed sides and gave his support to Louis-Phillippe.)

Mme. de Polignac was more of the Dauphin's governess than she was Madame Royale's. (Therese was cared for by the sub-gouvernante, Madame Mackau. ) The reason Marie-Antoinette had Mme de Polignac as governess was that they were close friends and the queen wanted to raise her children herself and she knew that Gabrielle would not assert the rights of Madame la Gouvernante, which was an official position in the kingdom. I do not think Therese disliked Gabrielle but she did not love her the way she loved Mme de Tourzel and Mme Mackau.



Great! Thanks, Elena_Maria_Vidal!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 08:55:55 AM
Quote
That is so true, Paul. If not for the Salic Law, Marie-Therese would have been killed during the Revolution!



It was not only the Salic Law that saved Therese. (Poor Mme Elisabeth, it did not save her!) Therese was kept alive as a pawn for bargaining purposes and as a possible tool for a political coup. Before the end of the Terror in 1794, there were wild rumors swirling around Paris, one of the rumors being that Robespierre planned to marry Madame Royale.  Yes, it sounds far-fetched!  The princess described a gentleman coming to see her in the prison at night (they were always bursting in upon her in the dead of night, which almost shattered her nerves) and she discovered later that it was Robespierre himself. Also, there is evidence that Louis XVIII was corresponding with Revolutionary leaders, including nasty Hebert and Chaumette (who were guillotined for being involved in a "royalist plot"). Louis XVIII wanted Therese allied with him to strengthen his claim, and he did not stop at anything to obtain that end, including deluding her into marrying Angouleme.

Marie-Therese was famous for the raspy timbre of her voice. The royalists claimed her vocal chords had begun to disintegrate during her year of solitary confinement, but there is evidence that her voice was not melodious to begin with, since Marie-Antoinette was working with her even in prison, trying to teach her how to modulate her tones. What do you all think of this?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 13, 2006, 09:26:33 AM
  Wow!!! i did not know that, interesting!


Marie-Therese was famous for the raspy timbre of her voice. The royalists claimed her vocal chords had begun to disintegrate during her year of solitary confinement, but there is evidence that her voice was not melodious to begin with, since Marie-Antoinette was working with her even in prison, trying to teach her how to modulate her tones. What do you all think of this?[/quote]
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 09:36:20 AM
I'm not sadistic or anything but i am so delighted that nearly all those responsible for sending Louis and Marie Antoinette to the guillotine suffered the same fate themselves!!  :) :)

That's poetic justice for you!!!  :) :)

EDIT - P.S Is that bad?  ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 09:57:41 AM
Quote
I'm not sadistic or anything but i am so delighted that nearly all those responsible for sending Louis and Marie Antoinette to the guillotine suffered the same fate themselves!!  :) :)

That's poetic justice for you!!!  :) :)

EDIT - P.S Is that bad?  ???



I feel the same way! There were still many of them around afterwards. They never could get rid of Talleyrand, he always rose to the top, like pond scum. One of the other revolutionaries, Joseph Fouche, survived to be Napoleon's Chief of Police and later served under Louis XVIII for awhile. Imagine Therese having to run into him at the Tuileries, when he had voted for her father's execution!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 10:03:22 AM
Glad you agree Elena!!  :)

You are right they were scum and their were evn those who called for the execution of M-T!!!!  >:( >:(

Thank god they never did.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 10:29:18 AM
Well, there were many times during her difficult life that she probably wished they had killed her! She really had amazing courage to go on in spite of everything.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 10:49:17 AM
Yes im sure you are right Elena especially those dark lonely days after Madame Elisabths departure. :'(

And yes I agree there were still to many that remained and all such hypocrites, they should have guillotined the lot.

Also, at least out of loyalty to his late brother, Louis XVIII should never have had the likes of Joseph Fouche working under him. What a painful reminder for Marie-Therese.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 11:34:52 AM
I agree with both of you. Marie-Therese must have been horribly lonely after Madame Elisabeth's execution - didn't Marie Antoinette tell her - before MA's death - to obey Elisabeth and treat her as a second mother?  :-/

About Marie-Therese's voice, thank for that interesting info Elena. Of course, if MA was teaching her how to change it early on, it might have just been her normal voice.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 11:48:18 AM
Yes she did Prince! I think she quite understandably hoped that Madame Elisabeth would be permitted to stay with Marie-Therese. I doubt she ever dreamt that they would leave her son to die and her daughter kept prisoner alone. To inhumane.   :-/
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 11:50:19 AM
Yes indeed Eddieboy!  :-/

I find it very touching that she committed her children to Madame Elisabeth's care - just like Charles I telling his children to obey their mother. Silly, I know, but I think it's very touching.  :-/ Poor Marie-Antoinette - it's almost better that she didn't survive to see what happened to her son. And Elena's right, I'm sure that at times Marie-Therese wished they had killed her!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 12:13:21 PM
Therese confided many years later, after the Revolution of 1830, to her neice Louise d'Artois and Louise's governess Mme. de Gontaut about how her life in prison. She said that her Aunt Elisabeth, before being taken away, warned her that when left there alone she must never allow the jailers to find her in bed or undressed. Since they would visit her at all hours of the day and night, Therese often spent nights sitting up fully dressed, afraid to lie down, for fear that her tormentors would burst in upon her and molest her in some way. When she washed her underclothes, it was with great care, and she would stretch them out to dry under the mattress of the bed, so that the men could not see her underclothes. It was this kind of consistent stress that caused Therese even after her release to jump whenever she heard a door knob turn or a bolt being drawn.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 12:25:34 PM
How sad!  :-/  Thanks Elena, I didn't know that. Did the stress affect Marie-Therese's health? Did she go grey early?  :'(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 12:39:27 PM
I think she did well to live as long as she did!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 12:47:51 PM
Good question, Prince, because we all know how Marie-Antoinette went prematurely gray. From her portraits, no, I do not think Therese went gray early; she would not have been one to wear a wig or dye her hair. The effects of stress were mostly upon her psychological health - she displayed what (to me) appear to be symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome similar to others who have witnessed bloody, cataclysmic events. She struggled with insomnia and nightmares her entire life, and could be heard pacing in her room at all hours. She was known to faint at the mention of her father or if she saw a place or a person who reminded her of some past terror.  She even fainted in public, and once at the sight of her cousin Louis-Philippe (his father had voted for her father's death). There were some parts of Paris through which she told her coachman she must never be driven, especially the Place de la Revolution where the guillotine stood. I believe that she was terrified that her beloved nephew Henri de Chambord would suffer the fate of her brother Louis XVII, which may have caused her to be overprotective of him. She had a great deal of insecurity about money, even when Louis XVIII made certain they were all well-provided for, and so she kept a bag of diamonds with her all the time "for emergencies."

In 1814, when the word came to Hartwell House that the monarchy was to be restored, Marie-Therese collapsed, the excuse being that it was too much happiness for her to bear, since she was so unaccustomed to feeling happy.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 12:51:24 PM
Quote
I think she did well to live as long as she did!!


Yes, I think she basically had a strong constitution. Marie-Antoinette was into healthy, natural foods, fresh air and exercise for her children, which helped them as long as they avoided getting TB.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 12:52:33 PM
Quite a revolutionary way for MA to think at the time!  ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 12:53:56 PM
Quote
Good question, Prince, because we all know how Marie-Antoinette went prematurely gray. From her portraits, no, I do not think Therese went gray early; she would not have been one to wear a wig or dye her hair. The effects of stress were mostly upon her psychological health - she displayed what (to me) appear to be symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome similar to others who have witnessed bloody, cataclysmic events. She struggled with insomnia and nightmares her entire life, and could be heard pacing in her room at all hours. She was known to faint at the mention of her father or if she saw a place or a person who reminded her of some past terror.  She even fainted in public, and once at the sight of her cousin Louis-Philippe (his father had voted for her father's death). There were some parts of Paris through which she told her coachman she must never be driven, especially the Place de la Revolution where the guillotine stood. I believe that she was terrified that her beloved nephew Henri de Chambord would suffer the fate of her brother Louis XVII, which may have caused her to be overprotective of him. She had a great deal of insecurity about money, even when Louis XVIII made certain they were all well-provided for, and so she kept a bag of diamonds with her all the time "for emergencies."

In 1814, when the word came to Hartwell House that the monarchy was to be restored, Marie-Therese collapsed, the excuse being that it was too much happiness for her to bear, since she was so unaccustomed to feeling happy.


Thanks a lot.  :D I'm not surprised she worried a lot about money, having gone so long with virtually no possessions!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 01:00:32 PM
Quote
Quite a revolutionary way for MA to think at the time!  ;D


;) Yes, indeed! The queen was fond of the back-to nature philosophy of Rousseau; she was one of the first of French mothers not to have her children put in swaddling clothes and would have breast-fed her babies herself except that someone (probably Empress Maria Teresa) talked her out of it. She  loved using herbal remedies and lotions made from the flowers and herbs from her own gardens at Trianon, and she loved to eat and drink the produce from her private farm.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 01:09:04 PM
Quote

 (probably Empress Maria Teresa) talked her out of it. .


Shades of Queen Victoria on the same subject some 100 years later!  ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 01:40:35 PM
Quote

Shades of Queen Victoria on the same subject some 100 years later!  ;D



Yes. Whereas Marie-Antoinette was very much like Alexandra Feodorovna in her approach to motherhood, except perhaps not so neurotic in other ways.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 13, 2006, 02:01:56 PM
It would have been better for the first dauphin if his mitehr would have breast feeded him, since he got TB from his nourice Madame Poitrine.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 13, 2006, 02:03:22 PM
I am surprise that they are not much portraits of Marie Therese. The only ones I know of MT as a grown up women are the one posted here.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 02:03:29 PM
Oh i thought there was a history of it??  ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 13, 2006, 02:26:28 PM
I'm sorry,  I can't see the fotos in the first page, so I hope I'm going round  ::)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/Marie-Therese-CharlottedeFrance.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/Marie-Therese-Charlotte1778-1851.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/Marie-Therese-Charlotte.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/MarieThereseCharlotte1795.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/Marie-Antoinette1755-1793etsesenfan.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 13, 2006, 02:43:43 PM
Beautiful pictures !!!!!Thank you!!!!
Mummmm! how do you post pictures! :-[
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 02:44:11 PM
Lovely! Thank you kora, what is the last one? :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 03:10:50 PM



Thank you for putting these photos up again so we do not have to keep scrolling back!! In the portrait of Therese as an adult one can see that she facially resembled her father (and her Aunt Elisabeth, as she herself said) although I think she had Antoinette's mouth and jaw (very Habsburg), as well as her mother's long neck, beautiful arms and hands. She would have looked more like her mother if her expression were not so grave, but then who can blame her? She did not have her mother's legendary grace but she did carry herself with dignity, a very royal lady.

I love the picture of them playing in the park at Trianon, it captures the essence of Antoinette's relationship with her children. (Besides I like her matching shoes and hat! :))
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 13, 2006, 03:14:57 PM
As the portrait has the date  of 1790, it might be Marie-Antoinette with Marie-Therese and Louis Charles
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 13, 2006, 03:27:52 PM
It may have been completed in 1790, but begun earlier. Nevertheless, it is probably Louis-Charles, as you say, Kora. It does not look like the park at the Tuileries. I wonder if it is at Saint-Cloud, where they were allowed to go even after the Revolution began? It was at Saint-Cloud where Charles gave Marie-Antoinette the flower called an "immortelle" saying, "Maman, I want you to be like this flower!"
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Agneschen on January 13, 2006, 04:56:11 PM
Quote
So, in answer to your questions, there is no Duc d'Orleans today, though the Comte de Paris may consider it one of his titles.


Prince François (1935-60), brother of the present count of Paris, was duke of Orléans. The title is now borne by another of the brothers Jacques (his twin brother Michel being comte d'Evreux).
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 13, 2006, 04:59:31 PM
Thank you.  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 08:15:35 AM
The two pictures in the circular frames (not the baby picture) but the one of Marie-Therese in mourning, I wonder what the date is on that? Is she mourning for Louis-Joseph or Baby Sophie? Or is it later, after the Revolution, when she was mourning for her entire family?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 14, 2006, 09:19:12 AM
Could it be that she is mourning her parents? though she does look quite young.

She appears to be wearing a mourning medallion with what looks like the image of two people. Either her siblings or parents?
:)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 09:31:54 AM
Yes, Eddieboy, I think you are right!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 14, 2006, 03:01:41 PM
These ivory  miniatures  in the circular frames  have been made after 1795, therefore I think, that princess was mourning for her entire family :'(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 03:06:45 PM
Thanks, Kora! Yes, she looks very sad, doesn't she? The portrait must be of her either right before she left France or in Vienna.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marie-Liesl on January 14, 2006, 03:09:00 PM
I read that when Marie-Therese after execution of her parents left France and came to Austria, her family want to marry her with archduke Karl, brother of emperor Franz I., but Marie-Therese thought about herself that she is Frenchwoman, and she married Louis d´Angouleme.
Did anybody hear more about Marie-Therese and Karl?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 03:35:53 PM
Quote
I read that when Marie-Therese after execution of her parents left France and came to Austria, her family want to marry her with archduke Karl, brother of emperor Franz I., but Marie-Therese thought about herself that she is Frenchwoman, and she married Louis d´Angouleme.
Did anybody hear more about Marie-Therese and Karl?


Hi, Marie-Liesl!! I have heard different things about this situation and my impression is that her French retainers were saying that Therese did not want to marry Karl because she was a Frenchwoman and hoped to someday return to France. They may have said this in order to save face, since I read elsewhere that the Emperor Francis, Karl's brother, wanted a more advantageous alliance for him than the orphaned, penniless daughter of a murdered king, and forced Karl to break off his friendship with Therese. I read this in Alice Curtis Desmond's book which is suspect so I do not know for sure how true that is.  There is a scene in which she runs out of the party and wants to jump off a bridge when Karl's engagement to another girl is announced. Maybe our friend "Frohsdorf" knows how exactly true all of this is?

I have read in some reputable memoirs, I think even Madame de Gontaut, that it was generally known that Karl was madly in love with Therese and that when the attempted betrothal came to nothing it caused some heartbreak at least on his side.

I always felt that Therese did love Karl in return; he was very ruggedly handsome as a young man (at least from the pictures I have seen) as well as being a capable soldier. I think losing him contributed to the on-going agony of her life, especially to have him replaced with Angouleme.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 14, 2006, 03:46:53 PM
Elena :) I thought Marie-Therese was very well of after her release? not to mention her mothers and aunts jewels etc!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marie-Liesl on January 14, 2006, 03:52:56 PM
Thank you.
I read it in Helga Thom´s book Love, power and machinations.
In september 1795 17-years-old Marie-Therese interchanged for five obseses and sended her to Austrian court, but firstly they want to send her to some convent, but now Marie-Therese was rich heiress. She inherited her mother´s jewels and her marriage portion, castles Rambouillet and St-Cloud, and because of this property they want to marry her.
In this book are also som letters, which Maria-Antoinetta wrote to Axel Fersen and then Axel to her.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 14, 2006, 03:57:52 PM
Small illustration to conversation on jewels -  a diadem of duchesse d'Angoulêm  ::)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/01.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:02:41 PM
Drool . . . it's brillo soap pads, thanks Kora.  :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:05:07 PM
Yes, Eddieboy, she was eventually well-off but it was a gradual process. She did not get her jewels back until she joined her Uncle Provence in Mitau, and she did not have a fortune again until after the Restoration. They had to beg the Prince of Wales and the Tsar for money in order to live.

After being restored to the throne, Louis XVIII put a huge amount of money in an English bank so that they would have something to live on if they were all exiled again, which they were, of course. Even after she had money after the Restoration, Therese was extremely frugal, conscious that she had obligations to pay the retirement of old servants and she always gave generously to the poor. She wore much-mended gowns over and over again, much to the frustrations of her ladies.

However, in Vienna in the 1790's Therese had next to nothing and was a guest of the Habsburgs. Mrs Desmond claims that there were prints of Karl and Therese together sold in the streets of Vienna while she was there in hopes of an upcoming betrothal, which may be a fact. I would love to see one.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 14, 2006, 04:07:35 PM
Thank you Elena!! I understand now! She had nothing when she was released then.. :(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:07:42 PM
Quote
Thank you.
I read it in Helga Thom´s book Love, power and machinations.
In september 1795 17-years-old Marie-Therese interchanged for five obseses and sended her to Austrian court, but firstly they want to send her to some convent, but now Marie-Therese was rich heiress. She inherited her mother´s jewels and her marriage portion, castles Rambouillet and St-Cloud, and because of this property they want to marry her.
In this book are also som letters, which Maria-Antoinetta wrote to Axel Fersen and then Axel to her.


Unfortunately, the revolutionaries would not let Therese have her income from her properties. I don't think Napoleon did either. If anyone knows differently, I would love to know about it!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:08:33 PM
Was she referred to as Therese or Marie-Therese in the family? Like the way Marie-Antoinette was sometimes 'Antoine' or 'Antoinette'?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:09:29 PM
Quote
Thank you Elena!! I understand now! She had nothing when she was released then.. :(


You are welcome, Eddie. Yes, it was a gradual reclamation process, getting her jewels and other things back. Some things she never got back!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 14, 2006, 04:10:59 PM
She must have been pleased to get certain property back, like a link with her deceased parents!  :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:11:08 PM
Quote
Was she referred to as Therese or Marie-Therese in the family? Like the way Marie-Antoinette was sometimes 'Antoine' or 'Antoinette'?


They called her "Therese" just as they called her mother "Antoinette."
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:12:08 PM
Quote

They called her "Therese" just as they called her mother "Antoinette."


Thanks Elena, is there anything you don't know about this topic?  :D :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:12:26 PM
Quote
She must have been pleased to get certain property back, like a link with her deceased parents!  :)


Yes, it is amazing she got anything back. Louis XVIII was good at making deals with the revolutionaries, however.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:14:52 PM
Quote

Thanks Elena, is there anything you don't know about this topic?  :D :D


LOL! You are funny! There are many things I don't know; I could keep researching this family forever. I would like to know more about what really happened with Karl.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:16:29 PM
Quote

LOL! You are funny! There are many things I don't know; I could keep researching this family forever. I would like to know more about what really happened with Karl.


Keep researching, we depend on you.  ;D ;D Seriously though, this is a wonderful topic and thanks sooooo much to those - especially elena_maria, Eddieboy, Sissi, Kora and Agneschen - who have contributed to it recently.  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:18:56 PM
Thanks also to you, Prince, for being such a gentleman!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:22:24 PM
Always a pleasure, love to learn more about Therese!  :D

BTW, which side of her family do you think she resembled?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marie-Liesl on January 14, 2006, 04:24:31 PM
If you want, I can send here these letters (Marie-Antoinette and Axel´s), but not today, but tomorrow, because I must translate it.
These letters (without one) was censored by one of Axel´s family member.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 14, 2006, 04:24:32 PM
Yes i second that! Thank you Elena and Prince & others, this thread is extremely interesting!! I agree the family is so fascinating!!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:29:23 PM
Quote
If you want, I can send here these letters (Marie-Antoinette and Axel´s), but not today, but tomorrow, because I must translate it.
These letters (without one) was censored by one of Axel´s family member.


Please do!  :D :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:29:59 PM
Quote
Yes i second that! Thank you Elena and Prince & others, this thread is extremely interesting!! I agree the family is so fascinating!!!


I've done little, but Elena certainly deserves thanks, and you too Eddieboy!  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 14, 2006, 04:30:21 PM
I want to thank you all  for making this forum an extremely interesting and unique place!! This is a reallly gift to me :-*
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 04:33:50 PM
Quote
I want to thank you all  for making this forum an extremely interesting and unique place!! This is a reallly gift to me :-*


Heehee, this thread is giving off some very good vibes tonight.  ;D ;D Glad you like it here Kora.  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 14, 2006, 04:53:21 PM
Some time ago, I've found a book about Marie-Therese,  it is free to read, and you can find it here
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/wormeley/princess/princess.html
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 04:58:14 PM
Quote
If you want, I can send here these letters (Marie-Antoinette and Axel´s), but not today, but tomorrow, because I must translate it.
These letters (without one) was censored by one of Axel´s family member.


Why don't you start a new topic thread for that? That would be interesting. I always heard that Fersen destroyed the original letters from the queen but made 'copies' in his own hand. (She wrote to him extensively during their captivity, calling him"Monsieur Rignon" for the sake of the censors in case they read her mail.  He was trying to arrange an escape for them and the King of Sweden was trying to help, too.) And then a relative of Fersen's scribbled out portions of the letters and  his diaries in which he recounted his adventures around Paris with various ladies.

Are those the letters you are referring to?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 05:00:12 PM
Quote
Always a pleasure, love to learn more about Therese!  :D

BTW, which side of her family do you think she resembled?


I think she resembled the Bourbon side for the most part, with a few of her mother's attributes, such as the swanlike neck and Habsburg jaw.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 05:04:24 PM
Quote
Some time ago, I've found a book about Marie-Therese,  it is free to read, and you can find it here
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/wormeley/princess/princess.html



Oh, Kora, this is a treasure! Thank you!! That is the best picture of Mme de Lamballe that I have ever seen!

Can you find a picture of Archduke Karl von Habsburg, brother of Francis II?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kora on January 14, 2006, 05:30:45 PM
Karl von Habsburg (1771-1847)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/KKK/KarldAutriche1771-1847.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 05:31:54 PM
Thank you, Kora. You are a gift to us!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 05:35:30 PM
Quote

I've done little, but Elena certainly deserves thanks, and you too Eddieboy!  ;)



Well, you are sweet. If anyone wants to read more than I could ever write here, there is always my novel. See
www.emvidal.com
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 14, 2006, 05:39:10 PM
Yes, I've been thinking about your books - I'll pm you, ok?  :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 14, 2006, 05:49:06 PM
OK!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 16, 2006, 01:20:03 PM
Quote
Karl seems ´pretty handsome in the picture you post Kora! What a difference with Angouleme who looks a little bit abnormal.

  I think its a pity that she is not buried next to her parent and brother.

  


Yes, it is sad that Therese is not buried at Saint-Denis with her parents. I do not think the French government at the time would permit it.

Angouleme does look abnormal. I never could figure out exactly what was wrong with him.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 16, 2006, 01:27:35 PM
his mother seems to have been the problem, the Savoie princesses were mocked at the time, since both of them were very very short and hairy! she was too shy, abnormally shy! I guess he inherited these traits of caracter.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 16, 2006, 01:31:56 PM
Quote
his mother seems to have been the problem, the Savoie princesses were mocked at the time, since both of them were very very short and hairy! she was too shy, abnormally shy! I guess he inherited these traits of caracter.


I agree, and I don't think he had proper nutrition, or enough affection, either.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 16, 2006, 01:59:34 PM
I agree completely!!!! they were brought up very badly as a matter of fact I think that Angouleme said once, that he was brought up comme un cochon, as a pig!!!!!

 Marie Therese d Artois was indifferent and did not pay any attention to her children.

 
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 16, 2006, 02:03:26 PM
You are right, Sisi, those Artois children were given over to the servants to raise.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 16, 2006, 03:21:07 PM
I have just finished reading a book on Marie therese by Monique de Huertas, Huertas beleive that there was a substitution, that the Duchess d Angouleme was Philipine Lambriquet, which she says was an illegitimate child of Louis XVI.

  She writes that physically madame Royale and the Duchess were very different, however in a close up  in a red dress which is posted at the begining I see a resemblance with Marie Antoinette.
  her other points were that the handwriting was different, that the Duchess did not enjoy music.

  I know that Huertas is no Andre Castelot but nevertheless it is interesting to see that some people still beleive that there was a substitution.
 
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: ilyala on January 16, 2006, 03:46:01 PM
i wonder where they come up with these things ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 16, 2006, 03:56:36 PM
Somewhere on this thread someone brought that up, the Dark Countess story. I have a book that a monk sent me by a relative of the Habsburgs called "Death Holds No Secrets" that makes the claim that Therese was exchanged in the Temple for an alleged half sister. The books backs the claimant Naundorf, whom Therese would not recieve, not because she thought her brother was dead for certain, she just did not think Naundorf was he.

First of all, I cannot see Louis  XVI begetting a child out of wedlock. Therese looked like both of her parents, it is obvious from the portraits. Also, SO many reputable people who knew her before, knew her afterwards and never doubted she was who she was, like Mme de Tourzel and Pauline, not to mention all the relatives.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 16, 2006, 04:00:16 PM
I personally do not think that a substitution was posible, however Huertas mentions the fact that many people during the restoration had trouble recognizing Marie Therese. I know that people change physically and mentally, she went through a lot and this could explain the change in her behaviors.

 Why a subsititution?

 In my opinion there is two posibilities:

1. she might have wanted some calm, a quiet life....
or 2. I know there is no account on any physical harassment, but does any one think that she could have been molested in some ways?

  I personally do not remember reading anywhere something like that, but she was surrounded by evil men.
 And her aunt did told her  to be careful never to be found in her nigth gown.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 16, 2006, 04:02:07 PM
No louis XVI was not the type of man to have had a child out of mariage.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 16, 2006, 04:05:04 PM
Quote
I personally do not think that a substitution was posible, however Huertas mentions the fact that many people during the restoration had trouble recognizing Marie Therese. I know that people change physically and mentally, she went through a lot and this could explain the change in her behaviors.

  Why a subsititution?

  In my opinion there is two posibilities:

1. she might have wanted some calm, a quiet life....
or 2. I know there is no account on any physical harassment, but does any one think that she could have been molested in some ways?

   I personally do not remember reading anywhere something like that, but she was surrounded by evil men.
  And her aunt did told her  to be careful never to be found in her nigth gown.


I don't think she was substituted but the reasons you give, about the possible molestation, etc, are the very reasons she was  cold  and withdrawn to people who were not close friends or family. They did not understand about post-traumatic stress in those days and if she had been molested then there was no psychological counselling for her, except for her confessor, to whom she was attached.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 17, 2006, 08:19:44 AM
(http:// http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/madameroyaleetlouisjoseph.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 17, 2006, 08:20:54 AM
Thanks to Kora I have been able to post a picture!!!! :P

  I will post some more!!!!
Thanks Kora!!! ;D ;) :D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 17, 2006, 08:22:20 AM
(http:// http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/madameroyale3.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/madameRoyale1.jpg)

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 17, 2006, 10:03:47 AM
What beautiful pictures! Thank you!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 17, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
Hi, everybody !

The explanation given by Huertas for Louis betraying his wife is that, after his operation for his phimosis, he tried with someone... This was successful enough as to give birth to little Philippine.

After the death of Philippine's mother, Marie-Antoinette adopted her under the name "Ernestine". The writer believes it's the reason why Ernestine is mentioned in the "registre des enfants de France", where only king's children are.

I think this explanation is ridiculous. Why would Louis try with another woman ? Furthermore, we now suspect there was no operation at all, as you already said, elena-maria-vidal.

Huertas goes on noticing physical differences between little Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème. She wonders why, for instance, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte d'Angoulème has an aquiline nose, while Mousseline hasn't. Well... don't children's faces change a lot while getting older ? And doesn't Charlotte look like her mother ? But Monique de Huertas says Marie-Antoinette hadn't an aquiline nose neither !

The only point that made me think twice in her demonstration is the following : Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, still inprisoned in the temple, was nice, sweet and affectionate. Later, the duchess d'Angoulème was cold and distant.

Yes, I agree such horrible misfortune may change someone forever. And how ! But why so late ? Why this period when she was tender ? I really wonder...

Another detail, too... The writer says there's a huge difference between Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème's scriptures. I've checked that on a site, and it's true... Strange, isn't it ?

I actually don't know what to believe... Surely Louis didn't have any child with another woman than his wife. But is any substitution impossible ?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 17, 2006, 04:17:30 PM
Quote
Hi, everybody !

The explanation given by Huertas for Louis betraying his wife is that, after his operation for his phimosis, he tried with someone... This was successful enough as to give birth to little Philippine.

After the death of Philippine's mother, Marie-Antoinette adopted her under the name "Ernestine". The writer believes it's the reason why Ernestine is mentioned in the "registre des enfants de France", where only king's children are.

I think this explanation is ridiculous. Why would Louis try with another woman ? Furthermore, we now suspect there was no operation at all, as you already said, elena-maria-vidal.

Huertas goes on noticing physical differences between little Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème. She wonders why, for instance, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte d'Angoulème has an aquiline nose, while Mousseline hasn't. Well... don't children's faces change a lot while getting older ? And doesn't Charlotte look like her mother ? But Monique de Huertas says Marie-Antoinette hadn't an aquiline nose neither !

The only point that made me think twice in her demonstration is the following : Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, still inprisoned in the temple, was nice, sweet and affectionate. Later, the duchess d'Angoulème was cold and distant.

Yes, I agree such horrible misfortune may change someone forever. And how ! But why so late ? Why this period when she was tender ? I really wonder...

Another detail, too... The writer says there's a huge difference between Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème's scriptures. I've checked that on a site, and it's true... Strange, isn't it ?

I actually don't know what to believe... Surely Louis didn't have any child with another woman than his wife. But is any substitution impossible ?


Hello, again, coquelilot!!! Well, my dear, I  must say I do think that Marie-Therese had an aquiline nose when she was young.(BTW, Marie-Antoinette had quite an aquiline nose herself!) It became more accentuated as she matured, which was also the case with her cousin, Marie-Adelaide d'Orleans.

As for the handwriting, sometimes people's handwriting is altered by accidents and traumatic experiences. Only a professional graphologist can tell for certain.

Marie-Antoinette  formally adopted Ernestine and another little girl named Zoe to be "sisters" of Madame Royale, devastated by baby Sophie's death. But they were not sired by Louis.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 17, 2006, 04:34:42 PM
Oh ? I knew about Ernestine. The two girls, her and Mousseline, were even dressed up like twins and raised together. I've read it was to lower Mousseline's hauteur.

I've never heard of this Zoé ? Could you tell me more ?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 17, 2006, 04:40:01 PM
Zoe was a child of servants like Ernestine and she later became a Visitation nun. Therese was in contact with her after the Restoration. Ernestine was taken out of the country by an aristicratic family and died in exile. The queen would have kept the girls with her but she did not feel it right to endanger their lives. They all played together at Trianon with Artois' boys and knew each other very well.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 17, 2006, 04:52:10 PM
Thanks a lot !

Never seen any mention of Zoé... Even Ernestine is often forgotten by biographers !

It seems Marie-Antoinette loved adopting children, mabe because she was raised in a big family, and she wanted that for her children too ? She considered "Guichette", Gabrielle de Polignac's daughter, as hers by adoption, she wrote with such concerns and tenderness !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 17, 2006, 05:06:47 PM
The story about Ernestine Lambriquet is in my opinion weird!!!! i have trouble beleiving that Louis XVI would have had a child outside the mariage, and even worse a test child!!! Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??

 I know that there is record of Ernestine in the books of the Enfant the France, but in my opinion she could have been adopted as Marie Antoinette adopted some years earlier Jacques (rebaptised Armand) the little peasant she found on a road with his grandma.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 17, 2006, 05:08:53 PM
Quote
Thanks a lot !

Never seen any mention of Zoé... Even Ernestine is often forgotten by biographers !

It seems Marie-Antoinette loved adopting children, mabe because she was raised in a big family, and she wanted that for her children too ? She considered "Guichette", Gabrielle de Polignac's daughter, as hers by adoption, she wrote with such concerns and tenderness !


So true!!

Ernestine and Zoe are mentioned in Vincent Cronin's "Louis and Antoinette" as well as the fact that both the king and queen loved children.  When they would walk in the gardens together, a parade of little children followed them. When she first came to France, Antoinette's menage was quickly infamous for the small children (she asked the servants to bring their children with them) and dogs romping about her glittering apartments.  She played hide and go seek with Mme Elisabeth who was a little girl when Antoinette got married. It was how she had lived all her previous life, surrounded by children and pets. (Much of what she later did was actually trying to recreate the childhood that she was ripped from at age 14. Most of her friends were several years older, not strange for the youngest daughter in a family of 16 children.)

Remember that little boy she adopted before she had her own children? I forget his name, but he later became a revolutionary.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 17, 2006, 05:10:06 PM
Quote
Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??  


Exactly ! It's the most stupid explanation I've ever read !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 17, 2006, 05:10:34 PM
Quote
The story about Ernestine Lambriquet is in my opinion weird!!!! i have trouble beleiving that Louis XVI would have had a child outside the mariage, and even worse a test child!!! Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??
 
  I know that there is record of Ernestine in the books of the Enfant the France, but in my opinion she could have been adopted as Marie Antoinette adopted some years earlier Jacques (rebaptised Armand) the little peasant she found on a road with his grandma.


Armand! That was his name! Yes, he was adopted the way Ernestine and Zoe were, but was no relation to the royal family.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 18, 2006, 10:18:29 AM
Quote
Most of her friends were several years older
::)

I had noticed it too... except for Fersen, born on Spt 4th 1755 and Vigée, also in 55 (in March, as far as I remember).
Louise de Lamballe and Gabrielle de Polignac were born in Spt 49.

I think you're right, she always desperately tried to find her familial nest back, most of all the magical friendship she had with her sister Carlotta, who loved her "extraordinarily".

How terrible it must be to be parted from one's family so young, and to be thrown in a so corrupt court !

She loved children, she loved pets, she loved flowers, trees, plants... she loved everything that lives ! She enjoied beauty, quiet, peace, too... and, surely, the sound of water. You can hear it softly murmuring when you rest in Trianon garden...
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 18, 2006, 10:41:22 AM
Quote
::)

I had noticed it too... except for Fersen, born on Spt 4th 1755 and Vigée, also in 55 (in March, as far as I remember).
Louise de Lamballe and Gabrielle de Polignac were born in Spt 49.

I think you're right, she always desperately tried to find her familial nest back, most of all the magical friendship she had with her sister Carlotta, who loved her "extraordinarily".

How terrible it must be to be parted from one's family so young, and to be thrown in a so corrupt court !

She loved children, she loved pets, she loved flowers, trees, plants... she loved everything that lives ! She enjoied beauty, quiet, peace, too... and, surely, the sound of water. You can hear it softly murmuring when you rest in Trianon garden...


I agree with you completely, coquelicot! I had a similar experience at Trianon, especially when I first visited it in 1980, when it was all better maintained than when I visited in 1999. It was in the dead of winter when I first walked in Marie-Antoinette's gardens, but the birds were singing, and I experienced it to be a peaceful and serene place.

Some of Antoinette's male friends, such as the Baron de Besenval and even the Prince de Ligne, I believe, were older than herself as well. They were mostly foreigners, too, like Fersen.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 18, 2006, 11:12:58 AM
Oh, yes ! There was Coigny, too... I think Besenval and Coigny were rather old gentlemen, weren't they ?

I've been to Trianon in 1989 or 90 (during the french destestable commemoration of their bicentenary...), in february. I immediately fell into the charm of this park, and never forgot it.

I went back recently, and back again... I would like to see this wonderful eden in all seasons, you know. Once, I saw a photo of Trianon gardens with snow. An enchantement !

But you're right, elena maria vidal ! It's as if some kind of magics was working there... I've been there in november, and the weather suddenly got nice ! It's beautiful when darker too, becoming more mysterious. And delightful when bright, with all these birds singing, these animals quiet, people gently wandering. It's a pleasure how respectful people are in this place !

We can be happy, now : huge reconstruction works has been done, and are still. We will soon be allowed to visit the hameau ! Finally ! It's a dream !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 18, 2006, 11:48:02 AM
Quote
Oh, yes ! There was Coigny, too... I think Besenval and Coigny were rather old gentlemen, weren't they ?

I've been to Trianon in 1989 or 90 (during the french destestable commemoration of their bicentenary...), in february. I immediately fell into the charm of this park, and never forgot it.

I went back recently, and back again... I would like to see this wonderful eden in all seasons, you know. Once, I saw a photo of Trianon gardens with snow. An enchantement !

But you're right, elena maria vidal ! It's as if some kind of magics was working there... I've been there in november, and the weather suddenly got nice ! It's beautiful when darker too, becoming more mysterious. And delightful when bright, with all these birds singing, these animals quiet, people gently wandering. It's a pleasure how respectful people are in this place !

We can be happy, now : huge reconstruction works has been done, and are still. We will soon be allowed to visit the hameau ! Finally ! It's a dream !


Yes, Besenval was white-haired.

I would love to see it all now since the restorations. Thanks for letting me know! Your descriptions are lovely!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 18, 2006, 12:00:51 PM
Sissi, I'm very sorry... I've used the wrong topic. So, I've copied my message on the right one, and deleted it here...

I fully agree with you. She was an exceptionnal woman indeed !  ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 18, 2006, 03:09:34 PM
Trianon is an example of the kind of life the queen tried to design for her family, a place for her to be with her children away from the public gaze, although the gardens were open to the public on Sundays. The fact that Therese experienced such beauty as a child made the horrors that followed more difficult to bear, possibly, as well as creating a light in her mind that the darkness could not penetrate.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 18, 2006, 04:18:38 PM
It must have been hard for Marie Therese, she had been raised with care, love andsurrounded by luxury and beauty and all the finest things in the world, she was proud of being daughter of the king of France, and all of the sudden she is nothing! a prisoner, an orphan...
 That must have been terrible! and that poor child Louis XVII.... he died in such miserable conditions, that MA from heaven must have been happy that she was reunited with him again! :'(
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 18, 2006, 04:50:23 PM
Well, she certainly was glad to be joining Louis. Remember how she wrote to Mme Elisabeth, "I go now to join your brother...." in her last letter.

I still have not found the quote from Edmund Burke. I'll look for it tonight.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 18, 2006, 10:05:46 PM
Good evening, everyone---

I discussed the substitution and Hildburghausen story some pages back in this thread.  It is a legend with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Someone brought up the difference in Marie Therese's handwriting.  I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.

She was not in love with Archduke Karl of Austria.  During her years in Vienna, she met him only a few times.  It was the plan of her cousin, Francis II, to marry them, but Marie Therese refused.  She always remained loyal to the wishes of Louis XVIII (that she marry Angouleme) because she believed this to be the last wishes of her parents.

It is just incredible to me, that the crazy "substitution" story still circulates, although, as I mentioned in a previous entry, the town of Hildburghausen in Germany does keep the tale alive.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 02:40:17 AM
Hi, Frohsdorf !

Quote
I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.


I agree with you, of course, and experienced the same modifications... fortunately !

Nevertheless, as far as I remember, duchess D'angoulème's scripture seemed to me rougher and more childish than earllier ? Is it an impression ?

I can tell you that substitutions stories still circulate in France, about Marie-Thérèse Charlotte as well as about Louis-Charles ! Concerning him, it's such a rage...  ::)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 08:00:31 AM
  Yes in France story about Marie Therese substitution, some people would love to open Marie Therese´s coffin to make some DNA test. I have read and even talk to people who think that she was raped at some point of her emprisonment and due to that she decided to retire herself from the world.

 
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 08:29:40 AM
Frankly, Sissi, finishing Huerta's book, I didn't know what to believe... But, now, I'm reading Castelot's "Madame Royale", and it seems Huerta relies a lot on Castelot's biography of Marie-Thérèse Charlotte's childhood. For instance, a mistake that amazed me (Valmont for Vermond, queen's obstetrician) in Huerta's book surely comes from Castelot's one.

Mistakes and copying must make readers suspicious, musn't they ?

Furthermore, I found pictures very resembling Marie-Antoinette on this topic. It seems duchess d'Angoulème really looked like her mother ! Same grace and carnation, whatever written descriptions may argue !

I'm still worried about scriptures and behaviour. So many people describe duchess d'Angoulème as a clumpsy person...

You know, I think people need daydreams. They prefer to imagine Charles or Charlotte spending a peaceful life somewhere in space than to face the truth. Itsn't it horrible to admit a little boy was left on is own dying like a dog in a stinking cell ?

Furthermore, french royalists may be attached to these allegued Louis XVII ? There are families directly concerned, and descendance !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 08:37:55 AM
Quote
Good evening, everyone---

I discussed the substitution and Hildburghausen story some pages back in this thread.  It is a legend with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Someone brought up the difference in Marie Therese's handwriting.  I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.

She was not in love with Archduke Karl of Austria.  During her years in Vienna, she met him only a few times.  It was the plan of her cousin, Francis II, to marry them, but Marie Therese refused.  She always remained loyal to the wishes of Louis XVIII (that she marry Angouleme) because she believed this to be the last wishes of her parents.

It is just incredible to me, that the crazy "substitution" story still circulates, although, as I mentioned in a previous entry, the town of Hildburghausen in Germany does keep the tale alive.



Welcome back, frohsdorf! I was afraid we had lost you! Thanks for your opininion on this matter!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 08:46:02 AM
Quote
Frankly, Sissi, finishing Huerta's book, I didn't know what to believe... But, now, I'm reading Castelot's "Madame Royale", and it seems Huerta relies a lot on Castelot's biography of Marie-Thérèse Charlotte's childhood. For instance, a mistake that amazed me (Valmont for Vermond, queen's obstetrician) in Huerta's book surely comes from Castelot's one.

Mistakes and copying must make readers suspicious, musn't they ?

Furthermore, I found pictures very resembling Marie-Antoinette on this topic. It seems duchess d'Angoulème really looked like her mother ! Same grace and carnation, whatever written descriptions may argue !

I'm still worried about scriptures and behaviour. So many people describe duchess d'Angoulème as a clumpsy person...

You know, I think people need daydreams. They prefer to imagine Charles or Charlotte spending a peaceful life somewhere in space than to face the truth. Itsn't it horrible to admit a little boy was left on is own dying like a dog in a stinking cell ?

Furthermore, french royalists may be attached to these allegued Louis XVII ? There are families directly concerned, and descendance !


The mystery of the Dauphin is a very different matter than the far-fetched nonsense about Therese. In those days before DNA, people had no way of knowing for sure what happened to him.  There were many claimants and rumors and occasionally a reliable testimony to stir things up. Even Therese herself was not certain for many years what had happened to her brother, and was still known to be questioning witnessing (discreetly, of course) into the 1820's. Up until the DNA tests, serious scholars have wondered about the truth. (I wrote the reasons for this on the Louis XVII thread if you want to see it.)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 09:52:56 AM
 It's a rage, on french boards, this question about Louis-Charles ! People immediately have arguments on this subject, it gets passionate ! Moderators finally close the topic... but another is soon back again !

If the "Dark Lady" wasn't Mousseline, have you any idea who she was ? And the reason why her mentor treated her like a princess ? Was she an usurpator, or was it just a coincidence ?

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm really upset by the whole story... Is it definitely impossible France wanted to keep Louis XVI's daughter ? The only remaining person of this family ?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 09:55:53 AM
Quote
It's a rage, on french boards, this question about Louis-Charles ! People immediately have arguments on this subject, it gets passionate ! Moderators finally close the topic... but another is soon back again !

If the "Dark Lady" wasn't Mousseline, have you any idea who she was ? And the reason why her mentor treated her like a princess ? Was she an usurpator, or was it just a coincidence ?

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm really upset by the whole story... Is it definitely impossible France wanted to keep Louis XVI's daughter ? The only remaining person of this family ?


I don't know who she was. I often wonder myself. It could have been a ploy to cast doubt on Marie-Therese and thus undermine the royal regime.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 10:03:44 AM
Quote
thus undermine the royal regime
 ???

Why ? She had no children of her own. Louis XVI's blood was extincted ? She was nothing left but Louis XVIII's Antigone ?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 10:12:18 AM
Quote
 ???

Why ? She had no children of her own. Louis XVI's blood was extincted ? She was nothing left but Louis XVIII's Antigone ?


I mean there were those who wanted to cast aspersion on the governments of Louis XVIII and Charles X by spreading the story that their niece, who gave them so much respectability, was not really a princess.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 10:18:38 AM
Thank you for explaining. It's true at that times politics were so "floating" and no regime sounded really sure nor legitime enough.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 19, 2006, 08:37:21 PM
At one time there were plans to open the grave of the "Dunkelgrafin" in Hildburghausen, but the town authorities refused.  Why?  Because if testing proved the the story to be false, the town would lose it's one claim to fame.

I have never heard anything regarding the opening of the Duchesse d'Angouleme's tomb in Castagnavizza!  That would seem a sacrilege, and I cannot see the Bourbon family granting permission any time soon.

There is no documentation anywhere---no letters, no diaries, no documents---from anyone who knew Marie Therese Charlotte that support this outrageous story of a rape or substitution.  

The direct heirs of the Comte de Chambord have always attested to the absurdity of these rumors.  

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 20, 2006, 03:11:04 AM
I believe you ! But such rumours live for long, obviously !
Even DNA analyzis wouldn't extinct them, I guess, as we can see for Charles' case. As elena-maria-vidal explained, such stories may be grounded on political purposes, a lot of people were highly concerned in spreading them. Nowadays, there are other reasons, sentimental, nostalgic, touristic... I think that, on one end, people need to daydream and, on the other hand, some have less noble interests in making others dream ! ::)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 20, 2006, 09:33:43 AM
Quote
At one time there were plans to open the grave of the "Dunkelgrafin" in Hildburghausen, but the town authorities refused.  Why?  Because if testing proved the the story to be false, the town would lose it's one claim to fame.

I have never heard anything regarding the opening of the Duchesse d'Angouleme's tomb in Castagnavizza!  That would seem a sacrilege, and I cannot see the Bourbon family granting permission any time soon.

There is no documentation anywhere---no letters, no diaries, no documents---from anyone who knew Marie Therese Charlotte that support this outrageous story of a rape or substitution.  

The direct heirs of the Comte de Chambord have always attested to the absurdity of these rumors.  



A friend of mine who is a friend of a man who believes in the "Dark Countess" story said that they secretly exhumed her at night without permission and the body was found to be incorrupt! How's that for a wild story!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 20, 2006, 12:23:58 PM
 :o

Didnt also people tell that, when Madame Elisabeth was guillotined, there was a scent of rose ? Can we believe that ?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 20, 2006, 12:40:41 PM
Quote
:o

Didnt also people tell that, when Madame Elisabeth was guillotined, there was a scent of rose ? Can we believe that ?


I read the same thing in Yvonne de La Vergne's bio of Madame Elisabeth. I believe it to be true. She was killed in the light of day in front of thousands of people and many witnessed the inexplicable scent of roses that surrounded the guillotine as the princess' soul left her body.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 20, 2006, 12:42:40 PM
Oh ? But how is it physically possible ?  :-/
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 20, 2006, 12:47:46 PM
Quote
Oh ? But how is it physically possible ?  :-/


It was a miracle from God, my dear. She was a saintly person. There are many other instances of such phenomena occuring in  the lives of the saints, especially your own Sainte Therese de Lisieux, la Petite Fleur.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on January 21, 2006, 10:38:02 PM
The "Dunkelgrafin" legend is an interesting story, but that's all it is, as far as the Duchesse d'Angouleme is concerned.  There is a definite mystery in Hildburghausen.   Why bury the poor woman on a wooded hillside in an anonymous grave instead of a cemetery or church?  

The "incorrupt body" story IS wild!  When I visited the grave in 2001, it had obviously not been disturbed for many years.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 22, 2006, 12:19:23 PM
Frohsdorf, I completely agree. I don't know who the poor woman was who was buried there as the Dark Countess; maybe she was a saintly person, but she was NOT Marie-Therese of France.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 27, 2006, 02:21:42 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/kucharsky.jpg)


This portrait was given to Madame de Toursel by the queen, Charming isn`t it?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 27, 2006, 02:26:37 PM
Very charming!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 28, 2006, 12:35:25 PM
lovely, indeed ! i've never seen this portrait before. It seems to be regsitered as a Kusharsky's painting. Does anyone know ? Kusharsky's paintings of Antoinette's family generally are my prefered ones...
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 08:37:37 AM
Quote
lovely, indeed ! i've never seen this portrait before. It seems to be regsitered as a Kusharsky's painting. Does anyone know ? Kusharsky's paintings of Antoinette's family generally are my prefered ones...



 Yes it is a Kusharsky, and they are my favourites too, I love this portrait she looks so real!!!!  :P
 I imagine that she must have been a really pretty young child. Too bad her looks faded as she grew older...
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 11:03:14 AM
  There is very few portrait of MA as an adult, besides the one with the red dress and two mores I think I have seen that is pretty much it! Those anybody knows why is that.?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 12:40:22 PM
There are many lithographs and drawings of Therese but few paintings of her as an adult, possibly because of the expense, and she was trying to be frugal.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 01:24:02 PM
OhHHHH :( I would have love to have more prtriats of her!!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 01:33:24 PM
Yes, me too. Apparently she lost a great deal of her looks after her disappointing marriage to Angouleme.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 30, 2006, 01:37:29 PM
Yes indeed. In 'Madame Royale' Elena_Maria depicts many people remembering the pretty young Therese of happier times then comparing her to the more careworn Duchesse d'Angouleme.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 01:56:38 PM
She aged badly, she was a child one of the most charming princess of Europe, people may have felt disappointed, however if you look at the portrait she still looks nice after she was sent to Vienna.

 So I guess you must be right her mariage did not help her looks
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 02:11:11 PM
It may be one of the reasons people said she had been exchanged with another girl.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 02:36:36 PM
You are right Elena Maria,people that knew her before, adn new how charming she was and what a beauty she might have become it must have been a great disappointement, I am quiet disappointed when I look at the portrait, I kbnow that children change but she did change in a very drastic way....

  Besides the heir of Sweden and of Naples did they were talks of any other posible match for her?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 02:51:58 PM
Yes, young Louis-Phillippe d'Orleans but Marie-Antoinette could not stand his father ( and for good reason, IMHO.) However, Angouleme always seemed to be in the first place.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 03:02:07 PM
I know MA wanted to be near her children, but for a fille de france being Duchesse d Angouleme was not a great match, and politically a mariage abroad could have been useful for France, besides in the case of the prince of naples, she would have been close to her aunt the queen MAria Carolina.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 03:06:18 PM
Yes, but the Duc d'Angouleme was an heir to the throne of France, fourth or fifth in line, which was pretty close considering the way people died in those days.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 03:24:41 PM
Do you think that MA had that idea in mind after the death of Louis Joseph, do you think that somehow she might have thought of the idea of losing Louis Charles, and marrying MT to Angouleme would at least secure the throne for one of her children.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 30, 2006, 03:36:40 PM
That is exactly true, Sissi. In case both of her sons died, she wanted to make certain that her daughter had a chance of becoming queen consort of France.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 31, 2006, 05:40:27 AM
Didn't Marie-Antoinette say that she didn't want her daughter to suffer the same fate as hers, by being sent abroad for a political marriage ? I always thought this was the main reason why she wanted to marry Mousseline to Angoulème : to be sure her daughter won't have to leave France and her family, as she once had to leave Austria.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 31, 2006, 08:13:13 AM
Yes madame Campan mentioned that in her memoirs, MA was very attached to her children, she also thought that being a daughter of France was much more importatn than being queen consort in an other realm...
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 31, 2006, 08:23:37 AM
Coquelicot and Sissi, you are both absolutely right.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 31, 2006, 09:09:57 AM
I read that MT was devastaded at Louis Joseph`s death, they got along pretty well, I think she was closer to him than with small Louis Charles, because of the age difference! I know that the first dauphin did not like Madame de Polignac was that the case with MT?
 Something else I have visisted Versailles many times but I can`t seem to find what were her rooms, does any of you know?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 31, 2006, 09:27:32 AM
Yes, M-T was devastated by L-J's death, as was the entire family (except Provence). I think that Mme de Polignac was more of a Madame la Gouvernante in name only, with Madame de Mackau doing most of the work under the queen's direct supervision. Not that Mme de Polignac was not there because the Dauphin's governess could never leave him alone. I don't think they disliked her, they were just closer to Mme de Mackau, who had also raised Mme Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 31, 2006, 10:14:15 AM
By the way, I came to the conclusion that many lies had been told about Gabrielle de Polignac. The same misadventure occured to her as to the queen: she was decried and traduced by jealous people. Marie-Antoinette had a great affection for her, so great that it envolved her whole family. She helped all the Polignacs the best she could, "loving them with all her heart", she wrote, and considered Gabrielle's children hers by adoption. Many courtiers told Gabrielle was made governess only because of her lazyness, that would allow the queen to raise her children alone ! I on the contrary think they both raised their children together, recreating the warmth of a big family Marie-Antoinette so much missed. Madame Campan, who was close to Marie-Antoinette, appreciated Madame de Polignac, she even liked and respected her as a sweet woman and a devoted friend to the queen. In my view, we may believe her. Gabrielle de Polignac, forced to leave Versailles by anxious Marie-Antoinette, got ill while hearing of the king's execution. She didn't survive on Antoinette's one. She died on December 9th, 1793, was buried in Vienna with the epitaph "died from sorrow".
Nowadays, her sad reputation seems immovable. Historians, repeating words of their predecessors from generation to generation, have done their works ! But I persit on prefering to follow Marie-Antoinette, who wrote to her "dear heart" she would only find peace when the purity of Gabrielle's heart will be recognized.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 31, 2006, 10:33:29 AM
Yes, coquelicot, I am coming to a similar conclusion. Mme. de Polignac was terribly maligned in some of the same ways as the queen. Whereas, in reality, Gabrielle was known for her simplicity of dress and the fact that she never wore diamonds. Marie-Antoinette loved her like a sister. I think your assessment is accurate.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 31, 2006, 11:25:53 AM
That's it ! But from Zweig to Lever, all the biographers of Marie-Antoinette decrie this devoted friend she loved like a sister. Even Elisabeth de Faydeau, who wrote this so beautiful book about Fargeon, Marie-Antoinette's perfumer, is in this tradition. And look at this awful manga !  :-X
There are so few sources about Gabrielle de Polignac... and most of them full of anger. It seems Antoinette's wish will never be exauced !  :-/
It's one more reason why I appreciate Fraser's work : her opinion about duchess de Polignac is more balanced. For instance, she doesn't forget to mention how close she was to the king, too... among the few ones he trusted !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 31, 2006, 11:28:35 AM
That is true! Louis trusted Gabrielle and encouraged Antoinette to be friends with her.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 31, 2006, 01:00:25 PM
I used to have a negative opinion of Polignac, books always seemed to portray her as an intrigant always begging for money and advantages for her relatives. However I have changed my mind, she was not such a bad woman after all, both of you are right she was calumnized as MA was.

  I know Louis XVI favoured that friendship, because he thought it was less dangerous than the one with Madame de Lamballe and her Orleans entourage, however, even if Madame de Polignac was a good person, she was surrounded by opportunists, who took advantage of her intimacy with the queen. I think that as a friend you have to watch over your friends interest and their good names, Polignac knew that MA was unloved, it was a secret to no one.... I think that as a friend she should have maintain the demand for her relatives a little more frugal....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 31, 2006, 01:16:04 PM
Of course, dear Sissi ! But that's not so easy ! I think they both were too nice and generous, her and Antoinette, and they both were manipulated by people who took advantage of their sentimentality. Antoinette was manipulated by her austrian family, and Gabrielle by her greedy relatives. It can be so difficult to answer no ! :-[
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 31, 2006, 01:47:20 PM
you are right!! It is so very difficult to say know to people you love!!!! :-[

 Changing the subject I have read that the first dauphin got Tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine it is sad that queens did not have the customs to breast feed their babies, It could have save the poor child, because MA had a robust health before the revolution.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 31, 2006, 01:52:25 PM
That is so true because M-A had originally wanted to nurse Madame Royale but I think her mother talked her out of it.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on January 31, 2006, 01:56:37 PM
Didn't she even begin to nurse her ? But it wasn't in the habits of the court of France, so, she dropped it. Sissi, you think Louis-Joseph got tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine ? Is it possible ? Wasn't bone tuberculosis a familial disease among Bourbons ? Louis-Auguste got it as a child, but was cured at Meudon.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on January 31, 2006, 03:24:43 PM
Quote
Didn't she even begin to nurse her ? But it wasn't in the habits of the court of France, so, she dropped it. Sissi, you think Louis-Joseph got tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine ? Is it possible ? Wasn't bone tuberculosis a familial disease among Bourbons ? Louis-Auguste got it as a child, but was cured at Meudon.


  Dear coquelicot, I have read that Madame Poitrine was the one who pass the disease to Louis Joseph! I know tha Bery was sick in his youth but I did not know that it was tuberculosis.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on February 01, 2006, 01:27:15 AM
Quote

   Dear coquelicot, I have read that Madame Poitrine was the one who pass the disease to Louis Joseph! I know tha Bery was sick in his youth but I did not know that it was tuberculosis.


I believe L-J also suffered from rickets, which is caused by a vitamin deficiency - i.e. poor diet. May be wrong though!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on February 01, 2006, 01:50:59 AM
I'm pretty sure Louis-Auguste suffered from the same disease as his sons. The fresh air of Meudon was reputed to have cured him. That's why poor Joseph was sent there too.
Later, Charles got this horrible disease in captivity, too.
That's the reason why I believe it was a familial problem.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 01, 2006, 08:19:24 AM
TB of the bone indeed ran in the family (or perhaps the germ just lived in the palace, which would not be surprising.) I never heard of Louis-Joseph having rickets, but Charles certainly did, while in the Temple prison.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 01, 2006, 08:33:09 AM
I have read that Versailles was an unhealthy environement, maybe if mA would have kept her children in Meudon or Saint Cloud far way from the court and Versailles thaty mught have grown up healthier. I know she wanted to be as close as posible to her children but maybe for the delicate nature of both her sons it turned out to be a bad decision.

  MT seemed to have had a good health, even though she always lived in Versailles, but her brothers were delicates and I think that if they had been raised in another palace things might have been different.

 Angouleme and Berry were brought up outside Versailles and lived to adulthood.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 01, 2006, 08:49:50 AM
Yes. That is also one of the reasons M-A insisted on going to Trianon so often, just to get her family out of the main palace, but look how much people criticised her for it.

Where did Angouleme and Berry grow up? (I always thought they grew up at Versailles, too.) The Bagatelle?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: coquelicot on February 01, 2006, 08:50:31 AM
I think the duphin wasn't allowed to go where he wanted, was he ? I mean, it wasn't easy to bring him elsewhere than Versailles, even for health reasons.

Switzerland could have been better for him ! But that was impossible, I'm afraid. That must be terrible, to see one's child deperish, and to be forced to keep him in a bad place. I'm pretty sure Marie-Antoinette knew Versailles wasn't good for her children, but that the queen and dauphin were tied up there !
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 01, 2006, 10:02:55 AM
I think that unfortunetely both her sons were sickly, tehre is account of Louis Charles being very nervous since he was a baby. And even in the temple whle he was with his family his health began to deteriorate, I know that the stress of the Revolution and Varenne`s flight might have caused it too, but I think that he had a poor health as well. MT seemed to have a robust child, or maybe it was due to the fact that she was older.

Angouleme and Artois lived in Versailles but not in the palace. I will try to remember where I read that.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on February 02, 2006, 02:56:53 PM
Madame de Campan says that LJ had rickets - it caused curvature of the spine. It is a deficiency of Vitamin D. Exposure to sunlight helps.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 02, 2006, 02:59:25 PM
Yes, Monsieur Bell, I do now recall that Madame Campan said that. Not enough sunshine....
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: QueenEna1887 on February 02, 2006, 03:39:18 PM
On the wikipedia.org section of Marie-Therese in the controversy section of her, I read that she it was likely she went into hiding in 1795 and that she was raped and likely became pregnant while in prison with her family by the prison guards. Can anyone confirm this as true or false?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 02, 2006, 03:50:24 PM
The rumor that M-T had been raped and borne a child in prison was circulating during the Restoration and at one point some poor girl came forward claiming to be her "daughter." However, I do not think she had a baby. I do not know if she was molested or not and if so in what way. We do know that she was verbally assualted by the guards' obscenties and that she lived in dread of physical assault all the time she was in jail, which may be just almost as psychologically devastating as actual assault - the constant anxiety took its toll on her.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:08:53 AM
"Le Seul Homme de la Famille"
Napoleon

 (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/pauillac.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 03, 2006, 09:24:27 AM
Quote
"Le Seul Homme de la Famille"
Napoleon

  (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/pauillac.jpg)


Oh, Sissi, thank you for posting this picture, one of my favorites of M-T. It shows her after she bravely but unsuccessfully tried to rally the troops at Bordeaux when Napoleon returned to France from his exile in Elba. She was forced to flee to the shore to take ship to England but as she did many people followed her, begging her for souvenirs. She gave them the white feathers from her hat, crying out, as the wind and the rains swirled around her: "Bring them back to me in better days, and Marie-Therese will show you that she has a good memory and has not forgotten her friends at Bordeaux!"
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:29:27 AM
Exactly!! a great display of courage, napoleon gave the order to let her go unharmed, this is where he claimed that she was the only man of the family!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 03, 2006, 09:33:04 AM
Yes, it was then that Napoleon made that comment, after Therese showed such courage at Bordeaux.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:35:27 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Caraud_Joseph_La_Reine_Marie-Antoin.jpg)


Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:40:34 AM
Sorry it is really smal, I will try to find a bigger version, I like this painting it was was painted in 1870 by Joseph Caraud.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 03, 2006, 09:41:56 AM
It looks interesting; what is it a picture of?
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 09:44:02 AM
It is MT kissing her mother
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 03, 2006, 09:46:01 AM
Beautiful! I have never seen it before!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 10:03:04 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/angouleme2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on February 03, 2006, 10:33:35 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/xavier.jpg)


Look how lovely this portrait of Louis Joseph Xavier Francois first dauphin....He looks enchanting!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 03, 2006, 10:39:22 AM
He does! A beautiful boy!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 04, 2006, 05:31:15 AM
Quote

Oh, Sissi, thank you for posting this picture, one of my favorites of M-T. It shows her after she bravely but unsuccessfully tried to rally the troops at Bordeaux when Napoleon returned to France from his exile in Elba. She was forced to flee to the shore to take ship to England but as she did many people followed her, begging her for souvenirs. She gave them the white feathers from her hat, crying out, as the wind and the rains swirled around her: "Bring them back to me in better days, and Marie-Therese will show you that she has a good memory and has not forgotten her friends at Bordeaux!"


Marvellous! Thank you Elena I never knew this!!! :) :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Prince_Lieven on February 04, 2006, 06:30:45 AM
Elena tells that scene very movingly in 'Madame Royale'. M-T truly deserved Napoleon's compliment of being 'the only man in the family'!  :)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on February 04, 2006, 09:09:52 AM
Oh, now I am blushing!  Thank you, Eddie and Prince for your kind words!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on March 03, 2006, 11:50:32 PM
There are many accurate portraits of Marie Therese Charlotte as an adult still in existence;  I'm refering to oil paintings, not engravings (which can be misleading):

----Two large full length portraits at Versailles.  One in a white gown painted by Baron Gros in 1814.  Another in the red gown we've seen on this site, painted about 1824, when she became Dauphine.  These two portraits are in the Restoration Galleries, usually closed to the public.  But I made special arrangements to see them in 2002.

----A half-length seated portrait in a gold embroidered gown painted by Robert Lefevbre in 1827, now in the City Hall in La Rochelle, France.

----The portrait by Baron Gros called "The Embarkation of the duchesse d'Angouleme", now in the Bordeaux museum.

---- Two portraits once in the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf, sold at Sothebys in 1938:  one half-length in a white gown, another one in a red gown painted by Thomas Lawrence.

----A portrait miniature painted about 1845, now in the collection of the Wurmbrand-Stuppach family.  I saw this portrait (the only one I've seen of M.T. as an elderly woman) when I visited Countess Wurmbrand in the 1989 and 1992.

----There is also a wonderful full-length portrait of M.T. as a young woman, just released from the Temple, full length, dressed in black.  One copy is in a Scottish collection, the other is in the Hermitage in Russia.

----It appears that  she was never photographed, according to sources I've checked and correspondence I have received  from the Bourbon family.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 09:22:22 AM
Do you know if there is a portrati of her as a mature woman, for I have nevers een one??? ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: lancashireladandre on March 07, 2006, 11:38:17 AM
Quote
There are many accurate portraits of Marie Therese Charlotte as an adult still in existence;  I'm refering to oil paintings, not engravings (which can be misleading):

----Two large full length portraits at Versailles.  One in a white gown painted by Baron Gros in 1814.  Another in the red gown we've seen on this site, painted about 1824, when she became Dauphine.  These two portraits are in the Restoration Galleries, usually closed to the public.  But I made special arrangements to see them in 2002.

----A half-length seated portrait in a gold embroidered gown painted by Robert Lefevbre in 1827, now in the City Hall in La Rochelle, France.

----The portrait by Baron Gros called "The Embarkation of the duchesse d'Angouleme", now in the Bordeaux museum.

---- Two portraits once in the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf, sold at Sothebys in 1938:  one half-length in a white gown, another one in a red gown painted by Thomas Lawrence.

----A portrait miniature painted about 1845, now in the collection of the Wurmbrand-Stuppach family.  I saw this portrait (the only one I've seen of M.T. as an elderly woman) when I visited Countess Wurmbrand in the 1989 and 1992.

----There is also a wonderful full-length portrait of M.T. as a young woman, just released from the Temple, full length, dressed in black.  One copy is in a Scottish collection, the other is in the Hermitage in Russia.

----It appears that  she was never photographed, according to sources I've checked and correspondence I have received  from the Bourbon family.

There is a portrait of Madame Royale in the wonderful Bowes museum in the North of England.This vast third empire style museum crammed with works of art is on the edge of the small market town of Barnard Castle,County Durham and was originally built by Josephine Bowes the french wife of the local grandee John Bowes an illegitimate son (and heir to huge estates) of the 10th Earl of Strathmore and thus a distant relative of the Queen Mother.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 04:38:50 PM
Marie Therese`bust


(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/bustedemadameroyaleparAchille.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 13, 2006, 03:47:47 PM
  I have heard a lot of things about the supose substitution of Marie Therese! Quite frankly I do not believe in it! Everybody is entail to have their own opinion but if you ask me, I find it kind of hard for a number of a reason!
  In a way it would have been easier to substitute the young king, who was younger, and politically more important.
   MT was older, (your face and figure change more as a child then as a grown up).
  However I found that during her like time she was black mailed by her ancient sous gouvernante Madame de Soucy and a doctor.
  This lady knew something about MT and after asking "gently for money" she completely black mail her.

  Does any of you know something about that story...

:o
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 13, 2006, 04:04:38 PM
Her life is unfortunately not cristal clear, I believe that she is a very complexe personage! She is quite hard to define.
 I know she went through a lot of traumas but still for instance why would she not want an autopsie???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: pers on March 14, 2006, 05:46:19 AM
Having seen numerous times what an autopsy entails and knowing what they do to you when they embalm you, I do not blame poor MT for not wanting to be autopsied!!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:09:58 PM
Something else that crosses my mind! is the fact that the subsitutionist have try to focus on the fact that the Duchess was a very cold woman, that she went so far as to say "that woman is the responsible one" referring to her mother the queen.
 
  I have trouble to believe in that, however if you read marie Antoinette`s biography you can feel at least the authors make you feel that there was a preference toward Louis Charles.
  That somehow MA did not really understood her daughter`s attitude so well.

    I think it is really hard to really know Marie Therese, she is always referred to as part of an  other context, she is always the daughter, sister, niece of someone, but I would like to know what she might have felt!!!

   She was a proud person, as a child she was self conscious of her rank. She was a daughter of France and took a lot of pride in that. Her mother tried to restrained that feeling of grandeur, because she thought it would do her more harm than anything else.
   
    She invited children fron non noble backgrounds and told her daughter that she had to be a good hostess no matter the origine of the guests. Mousseline is said to have not been happy with the task!
    I suppose she resented her mother`s "lesson"?

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:15:52 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/charites.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:19:09 PM
This was written in the Tuileries, after the Return from Varennes she went straight to her room to find that her money had been stolen from her drawer!
 She was devastated and went to her mother crying that it was gone. The queen promessed to replace it from her own money.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:21:56 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/benezech.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:22:53 PM
One of the last letter written in the Temple
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:24:19 PM
A letter by Louis Antoine with a Post datum from Marie Therese!

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/infante2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:25:47 PM
Zoom of the post datum

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/infantedet.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 14, 2006, 01:40:52 PM
Quote
Zoom of the post datum

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/infantedet.jpg)


Is it just me? - but the handwriting and even the style of expression (curiously flat) seems to be pretty consistent in all three examples. There's even the trait of leaving exactly the same tiny gap between each word, quite a contrast to her husband's style.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:45:24 PM
It is exactly what I thought!! The one in favour of the substitution say that there was a diference in handwritting, I am no expert, but I find them quite resemblant! besides the Duchess did not have a bad hand writting as it says she had! ???

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 01:50:33 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/lavergne.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 14, 2006, 02:31:24 PM
The first historian to find out about the black mail was Castelot who was also the first to have access to her letters, he discovered throught the letter she wrote to her private secretary the Baron de Charlet, back then he was more preocupy by the posible substitution of Louis XVII so he did not really took them into account!
  After some time he went back to the letters and thought that the black mailes had something to do with Naundorff! But it proved wrong.

   She was being black mailed by a Dr. named Lavergne, who had the information from madame de Soucy who had been sous gouvernate of the princess in Versailles.
 According to the man, the Duchess had told madame de Soucy a secret right after being set free from the Temple, something big! A big revelation!
  But what big revelation???? Nobody knows! ???
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 15, 2006, 01:30:08 AM
Quote
The first historian to find out about the black mail was Castelot who was also the first to have access to her letters, he discovered throught the letter she wrote to her private secretary the Baron de Charlet, back then he was more preocupy by the posible substitution of Louis XVII so he did not really took them into account!
   After some time he went back to the letters and thought that the black mailes had something to do with Naundorff! But it proved wrong.

    She was being black mailed by a Dr. named Lavergne, who had the information from madame de Soucy who had been sous gouvernate of the princess in Versailles.
  According to the man, the Duchess had told madame de Soucy a secret right after being set free from the Temple, something big! A big revelation!
   But what big revelation???? Nobody knows! ???



Maybe the real colour of her hair.....? ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Kimberly on March 15, 2006, 03:26:37 AM
Ouch, Bell, ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 15, 2006, 08:29:30 AM
Quote


Maybe the real colour of her hair.....? ;D



Could be!!! ;D
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Alexander_II on March 20, 2006, 05:55:18 AM
Maybe she had disclosed what had really happened to her brother in the Temple?  I recall reading somewhere that upon her death, Marie-Therese left a sealed document titled, "The Fate of Louis XVII".  In accordance with her instructions this document was to remain sealed and not to be opened for 150 years.  If this document exists, it should have been opened in 2002 yet I have heard nothing further about it.  
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 20, 2006, 08:55:08 AM
Quote
Maybe she had disclosed what had really happened to her brother in the Temple?  I recall reading somewhere that upon her death, Marie-Therese had left a sealed document titled, "The Fate of Louis XVII".  In accordance with her instructions this document was to remain sealed and not to be opened for 150 years.  If this document exists, it should have been opened in 2002 yet I have heard nothing further about it.  


Dear Alexander II I have read that too somewhere, I recall that the document was suposelly in the Vatican.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on March 20, 2006, 09:38:25 AM
However regarding the secret she was blackmailed with,  seemed to have been "her " secret"  something directly affecting her. According to the letters it was a secret capable of destroying her flawless reputation!Some people think that it might be a proof of the substitution!

  I don`t think Louis XVII urvived the Temple, however in his case a substitution might have proven beneficial hi was the heir to the throne! many people would have benefit from his substitution. However in the case of Marie Therese I see no point in substituting another woman! She was no heir, and therefore had no political importance, it is true that she was used as a propaganda tool but she was not as important as her brother was. So in my opinion there was no reason to substitute her, unless she expressed the desire herself.

  In the case, that she might have said "yes I want to live a quiet life, apart from politics and media!" it is still hard to believe that such a princess would say that! She was proud of being who she was, of her rank, I do not believe that Marie Therese would have accept to live apart from what she thought was her destiny.
She had lived with her mother and aunt who displayed great courage, she wouldn`t have agree to live a commoner life when she was the daughter of her parents.

   So if you ask my opinion "the secret" has to be something else!
  Some people think it might have been a rape! There is no proof but still nobody really knows what might have happened in those walls, she was left alone, she had no servant, she was a young woman, atractive, her parents had been hated. The truth is that anything could have happen!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Alexander_II on March 21, 2006, 01:42:31 AM
I think we all agree that the substitution theory is absurd however, it is highly possible that she was raped if we confine the secret specifically to Marie-Therese.  Whilst disparaging for a Princesse Royale, it would of been very difficult for either Madame de Soucy or Dr Lavergne to allege unless the rape eventuated into a pregnancy and the childs identity could of been destructively exposed.

Again what if Louis XVII had survived the Temple but was either physically or psychologically affected to such a degree as to render him a threat to the cause of the very ambitious Bourbon's?  Now such a secret is worth paying for because it does affect many of the key players.  This purely speculative scenario of events would of course explain why the family very expediently dismissed all pretenders without any real curiosity or interest.  Even Anna Anderson received more attention from the Romanov's and let's face it, she had even less to gain!

If this document exists, it could very well be the key because as history has it Marie-Therese's brothers fate did directly affect her.  It was Louis XVIII who desired and pushed his eager niece into marrying Louis-Antoine, Duc d'Angouleme, despite the initial opposition to the match by his brother Charles, guarantying Marie-Therese in his mind the throne of France.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on May 29, 2006, 11:45:24 PM
It's true that Marie Therese may have paid "hush money" to certain individuals in her later years (as Andre Castelot suggests in his biography of the Princess).   This may or may not have pertained to Louis XVII, as Marie Therese was never entirely sure what became of her brother.  Although she designated the Comte de Chambord her heir in her handwritten last will and testament (July 1851), for many years she was troubled by persistent doubts about the fate of Louis XVII.  However, there never was any kind of sealed document, or a second will.  This was a rumor that was passed down through the years.  The daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo (the last Bourbon owner of Frohsdorf), made a formal inquiry,  visited the Vatican, and met with papal officials to determine whether or not Marie Therese sent any documention to the Pope prior to her death in 1851.  The official statement of the Vatican was that no such documentation ever existed in the papal archives.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on May 30, 2006, 09:20:24 AM
Quote
It's true that Marie Therese may have paid "hush money" to certain individuals in her later years (as Andre Castelot suggests in his biography of the Princess).   This may or may not have pertained to Louis XVII, as Marie Therese was never entirely sure what became of her brother.  Although she designated the Comte de Chambord her heir in her handwritten last will and testament (July 1851), for many years she was troubled by persistent doubts about the fate of Louis XVII.  However, there never was any kind of sealed document, or a second will.  This was a rumor that was passed down through the years.  The daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo (the last Bourbon owner of Frohsdorf), made a formal inquiry,  visited the Vatican, and met with papal officials to determine whether or not Marie Therese sent any documention to the Pope prior to her death in 1851.  The official statement of the Vatican was that no such documentation ever existed in the papal archives.

  Really!!! I heard that a document might have been placed there for custody!! in nay case some historians believe that the black mailed was somehting about her! I don`t think there was a substitution, I know, she changed but after the traumatic event she went through, it is kind of normal, it would have been abnormal if she had not changed, her gloominess was the product of her emprisonment, the death of her close relatives. I am not really a supporter of the substitution theory, i don`t think there is enough sustainable evidence, even though I would love to think that she did hide, and was happy!!!

 However, some historians beleives that she was raped, and became pregnant!

 I thought aboutthat possibility, she was a young pretty girl, aurrounded by hateful men, a raped princess was grave for Louis XVIII ambitions, he needed her for propaganda, to give legitimacy to his claim, she was to important for him to let her go that easily, the solution might have been an abortion, which at the time might have rendered her sterile. This is only speculation!!!!! ::)
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on June 06, 2006, 08:14:14 PM
The original handwriten, signed, and dated (July 1851) last will and testament of Marie Therese Charlotte is in the Archives Nationales in Paris.  She does not mention her brother, Louis XVII, and designates the Comte de Chambord her universal heir.  I own a photocopy of the original document, that I acquired through the Archives Nationales.

There was no secret, no rape, and no substitution.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Alexander_II on June 14, 2006, 06:29:33 AM
Dear frohsdorf, you may have acquired a public copy of the last will and testament of Marie-Therese but it is very naive of you to suggest this document concludes that there was no secret.  By your own admission, you validate that, "Marie-Therese may have paid hush money to certain individuals in her later years".  How does her last will and testatment sustantiate this possible bribery, blackmail or for that matter formally deny any merit towards the suggestion that she was potentially sexually abused during the term of her imprisonment?  The evidence strongly suggests that there was a secret.  We can only speculate as to its very nature but it was obviously important enough for Marie-Therese to want it to remain so!

Furthermore, the daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo may well have partaken in a pilgrammage to the Vatican but it is a well known fact that documents in the Vatican Secret Archives (Archivio Segreto Vaticano), or the even more larger secret Apostolic Penitentiary Archives are never made public due to the privacy of the confessor-penitent nature of the Penitentiary.  Therefore, if Marie-Therese did place a sealed document with the Vatican, officials were under no obligation whatsoever to confirm the truth of the matter to these ladies and in all reality would have been instructed to deny its very existance.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Sissi on June 14, 2006, 08:13:05 AM
I agree with you Alexander II, we can only speculate about what she was black mailed with, but the truth is that there was something she did not want anybody to know about. There was something secret!!! What is that secret? nobody knows for sure. Marie Therese was a serious woman, she would have not paid one cent if it would have not been a serious thing!
Besides you do not black mailed the king`s niece or daughter in law just like that, without serious motives.
   The Vatican is known for its fantastic and secret archives, they will not reveal what they contain that easily.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on June 24, 2006, 07:30:20 PM
None of the memoirs of the period, nor any of the serious biographies of Marie Therese Charlotte support a rape in the Temple Tower.  Nor do any documents exist in the French National Archives to support this.  But feel free to gossip about it.

At the time of her death, Marie Therese must have felt certain that her brother was dead, or had died in the Temple Tower in 1795.   She would not have named the Comte de Chambord her heir, otherwise.  Her brother, as the legitimate King of France, would have been named in her will, especially since her money and jewels would also have belonged to him, since it was all that remained of the fortune smuggled out of France by Marie Antoinette in 1791.

She very character, serious and pious,  would not allow her to keep her brother's existance a secret if he, indeed, still lived.

In all likelihood, she paid "hush money" to certain individuals to keep the rumors and imposters quiet.   Naundorff, as you know, hounded her until his death.

The "secret document" in the Vatican is a myth and is a good example of the rumors and outright lies that can gain credibility as "historical fact" over the years.

I would like to know the source, a reliable cited source, with a referral to documentation that I can look at to support  this supposition and rumor that Marie Therese sent a secret document pertaining to the Fate of Louis XVII to the  Vatican.   Not just , "Oh, I heard....."

I have studied Marie Therese's life for many years, have examined original letters and documents in both the French and Austrian national archives, and have also interviewed members of the Bourbon family.  I know what I'm talking about----as others on this site do not.    
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on June 24, 2006, 11:20:29 PM
I meant to say "HER very character...."  not "SHE very character...."  

The possibility of a  "secret document" or second will is mentioned in passing in Roger Langeron's (or perhaps Joan Evan's---one or the other, I don't have my papers with me at the moment)  very superficial biography of the Princess.  He does not  back this up with anything and does not provide a source or documentation to support this.

It's this kind of careless statement that creates problems for both the casual reader of French history and the serious researcher.

Based on what I've seen and read, any money Marie Therese paid out was to keep the tittle-tattle and gossips quiet!  Didn't work too well, obviously, as people are STILL gossiping about it over 150 years later.

Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Nathalie on June 25, 2006, 06:41:12 AM
None of the memoirs of the period, nor any of the serious biographies of Marie Therese Charlotte support a rape in the Temple Tower.  Nor do any documents exist in the French National Archives to support this.  But feel free to gossip about it.

I don't know, but unfortunately it seems quite realistic. Even nowadays there are many sexual abuse all over the world.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: frohsdorf on June 25, 2006, 10:00:07 AM
My contributions to this subject, the great Marie Therese Charlotte secret and Louis XVII conspiracy,  are over.  
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: pouvoir aux canards on July 28, 2006, 04:05:56 PM
I have studied Marie Therese's life for many years, have examined original letters and documents in both the French and Austrian national archives, and have also interviewed members of the Bourbon family.  I know what I'm talking about----as others on this site do not.    (FROHSDORF)

I try to study the life of Louise Marie d'Artois, daughter of Duc et Duchesse de Berry (ou Berri) . His life in France, Scotland, Prague, etc.... After his wedding with Carlo III I have some informations. If there were one or several book(s) in French or Italian (or Portuguese, English, Spanish) I would be happy to read them.

Best Regards

P.S. your opinions about Duchesse d' Angoulème seemed to me very wise...




Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 07, 2006, 05:58:28 AM
My contributions to this subject, the great Marie Therese Charlotte secret and Louis XVII conspiracy,  are over.  

Oh relax will you? It's a discussion board!!
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on July 08, 2008, 02:22:20 PM
I know that this thread has not been used in a while but I had a question:

What was Marie-Therese's realtionship with her maternal first cousin, Maria Amalia of Naples and Sicily, Duchess d'Orleans and Queen of the French? What were Marie-Therese's feelings about Maria Amalia becoming Queen of the French? Did she consider her a traitor or just a woman following her husband's wishes? And what did Marie-Therese feel at Maria Amalia's flight from France in the Revolutions of 1848, did the the two cousins ever write to each other after 1848?

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Mari on July 09, 2008, 08:23:29 AM
Marie Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme regarded her as the Daughter of her Mother's Champion and favorite Sister. She always called her
"ma vraie cousine"   

http://books.google.com/books?id=r0QQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240&dq=madame+adelaid+by+bearne&ei=zaV0SL_CNY_-sQP_tMT      P. 443






Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Norbert on July 10, 2008, 11:34:17 AM
who could hate Queen Marie Amelie...we know she was not happy to sit upon a revolutionary throne.
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Mari on July 13, 2008, 06:58:43 AM
Marie Therese felt very differently about Louis Phillipe becoming King of the French however. Upon hearing of his humiliating removal and his shameful flight the Duchess de Berry clapped her hands and danced around the room but the Duchess d' Angouleme said thrilling all over "Mon dieu, I dare not listen any more; We are too completely avenged."



http://books.google.com/books?id=GaEMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=Marie+Therese,+Duchesse+d%27Angouleme++and+Louis+Phillipe&ei=WuV5SO_8F52yjAHmi7iKDA
Title: Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
Post by: Marie Valerie on February 25, 2014, 11:41:46 AM
Some newer german books (2012) on Marie Therese or " Die Dunkelgräfin":


Die Dunkelgräfin: Das Geheimnis um die Tochter Marie Antoinettes (The Dark Countess: The secret about Marie Antoinettes daughter)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/9783492264570.jpg)



Das große Geheimnis von Hildburghausen: Auf den Spuren der Dunkelgräfin (The great secret of Hildburghausen: On the traces of the Dark Countess)

(http://salierverlag.de/out/pictures/generated/product/1/340_380_80/9783939611691_shop.jpg)