Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: koloagirl on August 14, 2005, 08:44:09 PM

Title: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: koloagirl on August 14, 2005, 08:44:09 PM
 :(
Poor little Louis XVII - the ill-fated son of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI - was forcibly taken from his mother and sister after his father's execution and given to one of the jailers where he was brainwashed into saying at his mother's trial that she was incestuously involved with him!  I simply cannot imagine her anguish at seeing him and hearing the obscenities he was uttering.  

Then after her execution - he passes into the pages of history -- most people believing he died of abuse and neglect in the Tower - but many people came forward later claiming to be this same boy.
Echoes of GD Anastasia!   :-/

What is everyone's opinion on this?  How do you think he died?  

Janet R.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 05:00:13 AM
Well, I read a book by Debra Cadbury called 'the Lost King of France' which deals with this issue - it is a very sad story. Taking things like DNA into accout, I beleive she confirms that Louis XVII did indeed die the in the Temple Prison. His poor sister was tormented for the rest of her life by men claiming to be him, but would never meet her for fear she would identify them.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Helene on August 15, 2005, 06:00:43 AM
  You're right, He was the second son of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette, He receives the title of duke of Normandy, and becomes hear with the dead of his elder brother, Louis-Joseph-Xavier deceased on June 4, 1789.

  Locked up with his family in the Tuileries, then in the Temple, after August 10, 1792, He is separated from his father on 2  December, when the lawsuit of the king opens, then of his mother on July 3, 1793. He is then entrusted to the guard of  Simon  a shoe-maker. This man tried  to corrupt the child by teaching him a  language disrespectful.

  January 5, 1794, Simon gives up the post of "tutor" and the small heir, entrusted to the guard of renewed police chiefs every evening, is subjected to reinforced "safety measures".

   His head was shaved, and nobody does not authorize him to see his sister, Mrs Royale, who lives solitary on the floor above. Herself speaks with a certain detachment about her small neighbor in the memories which she will write later.

 The child locked up in the Temple dies abruptly in 1795. :-/

  Many "false-heir" will haunt France and the world during decades which follow, of which most famous are certainly Naundorff.




Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I am not very good in English  :P
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 06:32:26 AM
Quote

Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I am not very good in English  :P


That's OK - are you French? You speak wonderful English! Have you also read the Lost King of France?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Helene on August 15, 2005, 06:38:57 AM
Yes I am french, so I am very happy there is a section for "French Royals"  :D

And no, I don't read this book, but if you advise it to me, why not  :)

Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 06:52:35 AM
Yes, it is a wonderful book - The Lost King of France by Deborah Cadbury (I only just noticed that I have been spelling her name wrong). I defy anyone to read it and not find it upsetting!!!!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 07:44:15 AM

Yes, as you have already said, Louis XVII died in the Temple prison. Probably of tuberculosis...

It was confirmed by DNA tests done to the heart of the little boy that was conserved against some hair of young Marie Antoinette conserved in Vienna thanks to her mother, Empress Maria Theresia!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 07:47:08 AM
Yes, Maria Theresa was a magnificent woman, but that's another story for another thread!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Grand Duke on August 15, 2005, 09:44:36 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Louisxvii-1789.jpg)

To know more about Louis XVII:

- Louis XVII at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France);

- Naundorff, the most famous claimant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wilhelm_Naundorff);

- Website about Naundorff (http://www.louis-xvii.com/) - only in French.

- Website of Philippe Delorme, french historian who arranged for DNA testing of the long-supposed to be Louis XVII's heart (http://www.chez.com/louis17/) - in French.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: koloagirl on August 15, 2005, 03:37:50 PM
 :) :)

Thanks Grand Duke for those links -- I muddled my way through the French ones with my schoolgirl French!  :-/

How fascinating that the pretender Naundorf as he was pursuing his claim to be Louis XVII had so many of the same experiences as Anna Anderson - and apparently was able to convince many of the royal suite up to his death that he was indeed the little heir.  And apparently to this day his descendants are still pushing his claim!  ::)

And again mitochondrial DNA comes into play and disproves his claim these many years later!  Amazing!

Wonderful links!  And I'll have to read the book also!
Merci beau coup!   ;D

Janet R.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 08:55:05 AM
This is indeed Louis XVII, after Kucharski Alexandre (1741-1819), Museum of Versailles:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/96-021504.jpg)


another by Elisabeth Vigée-Lebrun
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/anctre_du_yoyo.jpg)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 09:01:12 AM
Here is the first Dauphin, Charles-Louis (1781-1789)
with mother, brother and sisiter by Vigée-Lebrun:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/124_jpg.jpg)

close-up:(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/dauphin1.jpg)


by the same, with his sister, Madame Royale (next duchesse d'Angoulème) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/scan10.jpg)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 16, 2005, 09:01:24 AM
Here is a pic of Louis XVII's brother Louis-Joseph (I always thought he was Louis Joseph Charles Xavier):

(http://www.batguano.com/xavier.jpg)

He died aged 8.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Lisa on August 16, 2005, 09:15:41 AM
Louis-François-Joseph-Xavier, 1rst Dauphin de France,  (1781-1789)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/dauphin2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/dauphin3.jpg) pastel, museum of Versailles
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Helene on August 16, 2005, 09:50:11 AM
In this three website, it is said that he is his brother  so I don't know what to think  ??? :

http://www.louis-xvii.com/autre17.htm (http://www.louis-xvii.com/autre17.htm)

http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/det4-en.html (http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/det4-en.html)

http://www.madamedepompadour.com/_m_antonietta_fersen/ita/_manton/man_img/man_fam.htm (http://www.madamedepompadour.com/_m_antonietta_fersen/ita/_manton/man_img/man_fam.htm)

Anyway, beautiful pic Lisa like always  ;), in your second pic Louis have an "émigrette", it is the  ancestor of the yoyo  :)


Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 16, 2005, 12:17:08 PM
I am very happy to see this thread started, as the Bourbons of France have long fascinated me, way before the Romanovs. Actually my first love is Marie Antionette, and Versailles I have considered the "epidome" of what is "royal", well, until I went to St.Petersburg ! [but then, so much there is modeled on Versailles and the Bourbon court].
The unfortunate child, Louis XVII sadly met his fate in the dark prison. His sister's story, Madame Royale is also sad if not as targic. The Castelot books on both of them are interesting.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Mgmstl on August 16, 2005, 11:33:48 PM
Poor Louis Charles, such a devoted son, and how horrible his life must have been after he was taken from his mother.  

However I somehow feel sorrier for the survivor of it all Marie Therese Charlotte, Duchesse de Angouleme. On her gravestone is the quote " Ask yourselves, ye who pass this way, if your sorrows in life do not equal mine."

A woman who was the sole survivor of the Royal Family,
left to money hungry, greedy relatives who cared naught for her, and then married to her cousin, who cared naught for her.  It is too bad she didn't have children, so she could have had someone in her life to love.

Just think of the agony, each time she interviewed a pretender, the thoughts that must have entered her head, is he, isn't he..... very sad, very very tragic.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ilyala on August 17, 2005, 04:13:46 AM
i read a book of marie antoinette, written by stefan zweig. in there it said that among other accusations brought to marie antoinette was incest! apparently the accusers had managed to get the dauphin to testify that his mother had molested him!  :-/

no-one actually believed it, since he probably was scared out of his minds, but still, what a cruel thing to put her through.

the same book said that it's very likely that the dauphin was actually axel fersen's son...
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Helene on August 17, 2005, 04:38:46 AM
It is a site about Axel de Fersen  ;) (Sorry it is in french) :

http://axelvonfersen.free.fr/

And look at the gallery, it is said once again that it is Louis Joseph in the portrait, Lisa do you have a link where it is said that it is not him ?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 17, 2005, 05:06:02 AM
Quote
Poor Louis Charles, such a devoted son, and how horrible his life must have been after he was taken from his mother.  

However I somehow feel sorrier for the survivor of it all Marie Therese Charlotte, Duchesse de Angouleme. On her gravestone is the quote " Ask yourselves, ye who pass this way, if your sorrows in life do not equal mine."

A woman who was the sole survivor of the Royal Family,
left to money hungry, greedy relatives who cared naught for her, and then married to her cousin, who cared naught for her.  It is too bad she didn't have children, so she could have had someone in her life to love.

Just think of the agony, each time she interviewed a pretender, the thoughts that must have entered her head, is he, isn't he..... very sad, very very tragic.


I totally agree - I've always felt very bad for Marie-Therese. For her to have survived, with her entirely family dead . . . shudder.

Re Axel Fersen - I never heard that he was Louis-Charles' father. Possible, of course, but we have no reason to beleive it. Louis XVI certainly considered Louis-Charles his son.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on August 17, 2005, 05:45:01 AM


Yes, ilyala, Louis Charles was convinced to swear that both his mother and his aunt, Madame Elisabeth, had molested him. When this ''proof" was brought to trial, Marie Antoinette talked to the jury and said that she called to reason and to the hearts of all those who were parents, but that she wouldn't respond to such aberration... or something similar to that.

It was absurd confessing to that, so much when she knew that, although she was being tried, she was going to be executed whatever happened during the trial!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Lisa on August 17, 2005, 06:19:41 AM
Quote

And look at the gallery, it is said once again that it is Louis Joseph in the portrait, Lisa do you have a link where it is said that it is not him ?

Le site de l'agence photographique de la Réunion des Musées Nationaux!

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/home.aspx

for Louis XVII: http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchT.aspx?V=CSearchT&SID=22S39UVT2RNF&E=S_22S39UVT2RNF&NoR=500&New=T

For Louis Joseph:http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=65&FP=1925659&E=22S39UVT24ZL&SID=22S39UVT24ZL&New=T&Pic=48&SubE=2C6NU0S9QI5X
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Helene on August 17, 2005, 09:42:28 AM
Merci Lisa  :), Je leur ai écrit pour avoir plus de précision sur cette histoire d'identification  ;D
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Lisa on August 17, 2005, 11:23:50 AM
De rien! :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 06, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
Quote
This is indeed Louis XVII, after Kucharski Alexandre (1741-1819), Museum of Versailles:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/96-021504.jpg)


another by Elisabeth Vigée-Lebrun
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/anctre_du_yoyo.jpg)



I question whether the top picture is truly Louis XVII. In books it is sometimes labelled as such, but to me it looks like the first Dauphin, Louis-Joseph, who died of tuberculosis in 1789. The bottom picture is definitely Louis XVII, the robust Louis-Charles, with chubby cheeks and curly hair the color of straw as he was often described, even into the days of the Temple imprisonment, before being separated from his mother. Louis-Joseph was thin, delicate and consumptive-looking. Charles was healthy like a "peasant child." The boys in these two pictures do not look like the same person, taking it for granted that children go through various transformations.

This is just my opinion. For many years I was confused as to how these two pictures were both supposed to be Louis XVII, while the top one so much resembles Louis-Joseph. I really do think some history books have the wrong name on the wrong child.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 06, 2005, 06:23:50 PM
Quote
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Louisxvii-1789.jpg)

To know more about Louis XVII:

- Louis XVII at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France);




- Naundorff, the most famous claimant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wilhelm_Naundorff);

- Website about Naundorff (http://www.louis-xvii.com/) - only in French.

- Website of Philippe Delorme, french historian who arranged for DNA testing of the long-supposed to be Louis XVII's heart (http://www.chez.com/louis17/) - in French.



Now THIS is definitely the blonde, plump Louis-Charles, Louis XVII, the lost Dauphin.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 07, 2005, 01:12:21 PM
Quote
:(
Poor little Louis XVII - the ill-fated son of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI - was forcibly taken from his mother and sister after his father's execution and given to one of the jailers where he was brainwashed into saying at his mother's trial that she was incestuously involved with him!  I simply cannot imagine her anguish at seeing him and hearing the obscenities he was uttering.  

Then after her execution - he passes into the pages of history -- most people believing he died of abuse and neglect in the Tower - but many people came forward later claiming to be this same boy.
Echoes of GD Anastasia!   :-/

What is everyone's opinion on this?  How do you think he died?  

Janet R.


I think Louis XVII did not die in the Temple in 1795 but was replaced by another boy. Yes, I have read all about the DNA. The specimen used, a desiccated heart, to me is questionable. How do they know where that heart really came from? The doctor who performed the autopsy and allegedly removed the heart was sympathetic to the Revolution and no one witnessed the autopsy but other revolutionaries. Marie-Therese was right upstairs but not allowed to come downstairs to see her "brother's" body, not to pray at his side or anything. After the body was removed, she allowed to come out of solitary confinement where she had been for a year and go down into the garden.

It is theorized that the real Dauphin may have been exchanged with one Jean-Marie Hervagault, illegitimate son of the Duc de Valentinois, Prince of Monaco, a relative of the Habsburgs. He was five years older than Louis-Charles, which accounts for the fact that eyewitnesses said the captive "Dauphin" looked to be about 15, not 10.  The bones later excavated were definitely those of a teenager, in spite of the wierd effects TB has on bone growth. Interesting.....

Also, let us recall that the Royal crypt at Saint-Denis had been rifled by the revolutionaries and the many remains scattered - it may have been Louis-Joseph's heart, the older brother, or another family member's. There were many royal hearts at large, see Andre Castelot's book. (Also Meade Minnergerode's "Son of Marie-Antoinette.")

I do not know which claimant was the real one. I am not a Naundorfiste, however. It is well to keep in mind that Provence was said to be sending out boys as decoys, just to stir up the pot and distract attention away from whoever was the true claimant.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ilyala on November 08, 2005, 02:16:26 AM
while i don't quite believe what you're saying... let's go along with it... if i were the little dauphin and had just escaped (somehow) prison, after having been worked out as a peaasant, after having to make horrible allegations against my mother, and after living in such a closed off environment... i doubt i would ever want to go back there again. especially since he was so little when everything happened. i would find myself a peaceful place, live a quiet life and forget all about the horrors of revolution
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 08, 2005, 07:00:40 AM
Quote
while i don't quite believe what you're saying... let's go along with it... if i were the little dauphin and had just escaped (somehow) prison, after having been worked out as a peaasant, after having to make horrible allegations against my mother, and after living in such a closed off environment... i doubt i would ever want to go back there again. especially since he was so little when everything happened. i would find myself a peaceful place, live a quiet life and forget all about the horrors of revolution



I agree; I think that if he did escape he lived in obscurity somewhere. I also think his sister was aware that if her brother was ever found, he might not be mentally capable of taking the reins of government because of the unspeakable things that had happened to him.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eurohistory on November 09, 2005, 09:04:08 AM
DNA studies done on Naundorff's remains proved that he was not Louis XVII.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 09, 2005, 09:23:51 AM
Quote
DNA studies done on Naundorff's remains proved that he was not Louis XVII.

Arturo Beéche


Yes, that is very true. I personally did not believe in him, anyway.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 10, 2005, 09:49:42 AM
There is an anecdote - I don't know whether to post it here or under the Duchesse d'Angouleme's thread, for it illustrates a great deal about her approach to the situation of her lost brother. I read this in one of Joseph Turquan's books (or else in  Meade Minnergerode.) One spring day in 1817, Marie-Therese, Duchesse of Angouleme was walking in the park of Versailles with her brother-in-law and cousin, the Duc de Berry. (They did not live at Versailles after the Restoration- too expensive, but they wanted to restore the chapel and maintain the graounds.) Suddenly, a young man approached them,  in shabby garb. He went to the princess, holding out his hand, saying, "Sister!"

Marie-Therese's reaction was startling to her brother-in-law and the entourage. She shouted at the young stranger: "Go AWAY! Go AWAY! It is YOU who destroyed my family!" The young man ran off into the park of Versailles and disappeared, leaving his "sister" in near hysteria. The story indicates that Marie-Therese was not at peace about Louis XVII, and still probably troubled in her heart about things that happened in the Temple prison.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: stacey on November 29, 2005, 10:26:48 AM
Seems to me that the DNA tests are pretty conclusive--that the poor child did indeed die, probably from abuse and neglect. Unbelievable the cruelty that "revolutionaries" can show to innocent children. I mean, teaching him to call his own mother vile names and even accuse her of incest--that is beyond cruel, it's obscene--words fail me for once!! I cannot imagine what poor Marie Antionette felt, hearing such things and knowing that her son had been subjected to such hateful brainwashing. I'm sure tho that she felt much sorrier for her poor little boy than she did for herself. And Helene, thank you so much for telling us about the "emigrette"--when I first looked at the painting my jaw dropped and I thought, "If I didn't know better, I'd swear he was holding a yoyo!" You do indeed learn something new every day---merci beaucoup, Helene!! ;D
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ilyala on November 30, 2005, 12:43:43 AM
lots of ugly things happened during the french revolution. while i believe that the french were right to want a change i think they went about it the worst way possible and brought on more harm than good. and in the end it all just led to the installation of napoleon who was an emperror and who pretty much did what a king would do in his place... therefor, not much of a change after all... so many people dying for nothing...  :(
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: etonexile on November 30, 2005, 05:36:48 AM
More often than not the consequence of revolutions is greater misery...Bad is often followed by worse...

Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: frohsdorf on January 08, 2006, 12:05:09 PM
Louis XVII died in the Temple.  All existing letters, dcumentation (and, now, scientific testing) point to that.   Scientific testing proved Naundorff was an imposter.  Eleazar Williams in Wisconsin has been proved an imposter.  There is not a thread of evidence pointing to the survival of Louis XVII .   At the time of her death in 1851, Marie Therese Charlotte, duchesse d'angouleme, named her nephew, the Comte de Chambord, her universal heir.  Her brother was never mentioned in her July, 1851, testament.  So, finally, after many years of doubt, she must have felt certain that her brother had died in 1795.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 08, 2006, 01:22:29 PM
How was Eleazar (Lazare) Williams proved to be an imposter? Really, I am curious. He looked an awful lot like the Comte de Provence  (from the portraits, which could have heightened the likeness) and was brought to New York by the ex-valet of the future Louis Xviii. I wondered if he was someone's natural child, always doubting he was LouisXVII. Did they do a DNA test?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: palimpsest on January 08, 2006, 03:51:41 PM
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3461/73179641ul.jpg)

A carved jar containing what is believed to be the heart of Louis XVII is placed next to a crown in France's royal crypt during a mass celebrated in the Saint-Denis Basilica, outside Paris, Tuesday, June 8, 2004. The heart is to be buried near the graves of Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI, who would be the parents of the young boy. (AP Photo/Pool)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: palimpsest on January 08, 2006, 03:54:07 PM
(http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/9083/73179033nk.jpg)

A Mass is celebrated in memory of Louis XVII in the Saint-Denis Basilica, outside Paris, Tuesday, June 8, 2004. The heart of a 10-year-old boy identified as Louis XVII was placed in France's royal crypt after genetic testing persuaded many historians that it was almost certainly the real thing. The heart is to be buried near the graves of Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI, who would be the parents of the young boy. (AP Photo/Pool) *
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: palimpsest on January 08, 2006, 03:55:50 PM
(http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/7831/73184543kw.jpg)

Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou, left, who is considered to be the head of the French Royal House, Prince Charles-Emmanuel de Bourbon Parme, second left, carrying his daughter Elizabeth, his son Amaury , background, his daughter Charlotte, foreground, his wife Baroness Constance de Ravinel, and their child Zita, arrive at the Saint-Denis basilica, north of Paris, Tuesday, June 8, 2004, before the solemn deposition of the heart of Louis XVII in the Bourbon chapel in the Basilica. The heart of the 10-year-old heir to France's throne who died in the Paris fortified Temple prison on June 8, 1795, and that was cut from Louis XVII's body following a tradition of keeping royal hearts separate from their bodies, will be placed during a ceremony in France's royal crypt of the Basilica, now that genetic tests have satisfied historians and the government that the tiny petrified heart passed down through the centuries is almost certainly the real thing. (AP Photo/Remy de la Mauviniere)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: palimpsest on January 08, 2006, 04:51:39 PM
(http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/6849/73176361hc.jpg)

Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou, foreground right, who is considered to be the the head of the French Royal House, attends with his grandmother Emanuela Dampierre, center, Duchess of Segovia, a requiem mass at the Saint-Denis Basilica, north of Paris, Monday, June 7, 2004. What is believed to be the heart of Louis XVII, the 10-year-old heir to France's throne who died in the Paris fortified Temple prison on June 8, 1795, and that was cut from Louis XVII's body following a tradition of keeping royal hearts separate from their bodies, will be placed during a ceremony on June 8 in France's royal crypt of the Basilica, now that genetic tests have satisfied historians and the government that the tiny petrified heart passed down through the centuries is almost certainly the real thing. Others are unidentified. (AP Photo/Remy de la Mauviniere)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 08, 2006, 05:31:20 PM
Excellent photos, thank you! Marie-Therese, Madame Royale, would never receive the heart in the reliquary when it was offered to her by the ex- revolutionary doctor who performed the autopsy in the Temple prison, since she had not been permitted to see the body, even for the purpose of offering prayers.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: palimpsest on January 08, 2006, 05:46:23 PM
with pleasure! :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ilyala on January 09, 2006, 04:41:25 AM
Quote
Louis XVII died in the Temple.  All existing letters, dcumentation (and, now, scientific testing) point to that.   Scientific testing proved Naundorff was an imposter.  Eleazar Williams in Wisconsin has been proved an imposter.  There is not a thread of evidence pointing to the survival of Louis XVII .   At the time of her death in 1851, Marie Therese Charlotte, duchesse d'angouleme, named her nephew, the Comte de Chambord, her universal heir.  Her brother was never mentioned in her July, 1851, testament.  So, finally, after many years of doubt, she must have felt certain that her brother had died in 1795.



again, i am not suggesting that louis xvii didn't die in the tower, because i'm almost certain that he did. but just because he wasn't any of those two imposters doesn't mean he wasn't alive. also, his sister might have not known he was alive or if she knew she might not have wanted to let the world know in her will. as i said before, had i been a 10 year old boy escaped from prison and horrors, the last thing i wanted was to let anyone know i'm still alive so they can come after me. i'd just hide and shut up. this is one of the reasons i don't believe the romanov claimants, the louis xvii and basically any simmilar claims: not because i think it's impossible to have survived, but because if anyone did survive, i doubt they would want anyone to know...
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on January 09, 2006, 04:53:30 AM
Louis XVII did indeed die in 1795. At least the heart is his. It was DNA tested with Marie Antoinette's hair that was kept in Vienna. No more mistery, Louis XVII died in prison.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 09, 2006, 06:43:18 PM
I just want to know why they did not let his sister see his body.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 10:14:21 AM
Fascinating, elena-maria-vidal ! I'm even more upset...
Thank you for drawing my attention to this topic.

I hope you're right, for obvious sentimental reasons ! Better to imagine the boy getting older quietly than knowing he was dead like a beast!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 10:43:03 AM
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Fascinating, elena-maria-vidal ! I'm even more upset...
Thank you for drawing my attention to this topic.

I hope you're right, for obvious sentimental reasons ! Better to imagine the boy getting older quietly than knowing he was dead like a beast!


Well, that is why as you said on another thread, people are still debating this. Not to question the DNA, but that heart could have been Louis Joseph's or some other family member's. There is no conclusive proof that it came from Charles (louis XVII).
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: coquelicot on January 19, 2006, 11:16:19 AM
Indeed. Some french surfer said the only thing we can say for sure is that it is a heart genetically related to Marie-Antoinette. And Habsburg-Lorraine family was huge !
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 12:32:21 PM
Even though dying like an animal after such terrible abuse is dreadful to think of, living in exile, unknown and disinherited, is just as terrible to me. No matter how you look at it, the fate of Louis XVII is not a pretty picture.

Just as in the case of the "Dark Countess" some of the Dauphin claimants were obvious political plants to stir up trouble for the established regime. Claude Perrein, for one, the "Baron de Richemont" who with his brother Jean took turns impersonating Louis XVII, was a member of the Carbonari, an Italian Bonapartist movement. It was also thought that Louis XVIII was sending out boys as decoys from his place of exile, in case his nephew had survived, he did not want competition for the throne, and sought to make the mystery more murky by having a number of claimants turning up everywhere. Lazare Williams of New York, for one, had previous connections with the household of the former Comte de Provence.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 12:40:18 PM
That Louis XVIII was a such a rat!!!!!!! :-/
     
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 12:52:56 PM
I have always regarded Louis XVIII as being one of the most evil Frech Royal. His thirst for power destroyed his brother family. I know the Revolution had many otehr aspects, but he definetely encourage the hostility agaisnt MA, and always thought out loud of his brother as an imbecile manipulated by his wife. He was the one who first said that Louis Charles was illegitimate. He did everything he could to undermine his brother reputation and sovereignty.
  In the end he did become King, but I think that he will never cease to be looked at the most intrigant, selfish, dreadful king!
 
  The other Kings and Emperor did not want him to have the crown, I think Talleyrand was the one who convinced them to gave him a chance.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 01:21:32 PM
Yes, Sisi, I agree on all points. I'm going to write more about my thoughts on Louis XVIII on his thread when I have more time. For now, let me say that some think that he actively sabotaged Madame Royale's investigation into the fate of her brother, which under the circumstances she had every right to make. His minister Decazes blocked Therese's efforts to communicate with various claimants, especially "Charles of Navarre." OK, so maybe they were all fakes, but as his sister she had a right and a duty to her own peace of mind to explore the rumors.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 01:36:23 PM
I agree 100% with you Elena Maria, her duty was too look for her brother even if they were all fake, he was the only member of her family who could have survived. She must have wished to at least find her brother alive.
 I do not think that she was ever angry at him for the incest accusation! she knew he was a child, who was being influence and maybe force to.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 01:50:38 PM
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I agree 100% with you Elena Maria, her duty was too look for her brother even if they were all fake, he was the only member of her family who could have survived. She must have wished to at least find her brother alive.
  I do not think that she was ever angry at him for the incest accusation! she knew he was a child, who was being influence and maybe force to.


I don't think she was angry with him either but I do think that the horror of everything that had happened made her experience conflicted feelings on many levels. In such cases there is a thing called Survivor's guilt in which the innocent survivor feels inexplicably guilty for being alive.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 01:57:15 PM
It is sad because nowaday you have profesional help to overcome any type of traumas. But back them she didn´t have anybody to help her cope with it. i think she was highly misunderstood!

  You seemed to beleive that there is a posibility that Louis XVII was removed from prison and got lost somewhere. Do you think that mT could have also be change for another woman?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 19, 2006, 02:11:04 PM
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It is sad because nowaday you have profesional help to overcome any type of traumas. But back them she didn´t have anybody to help her cope with it. i think she was highly misunderstood!

   You seemed to beleive that there is a posibility that Louis XVII was removed from prison and got lost somewhere. Do you think that mT could have also be change for another woman?


No, I do not think M-T was exchanged for another girl, simply because she was before and after more of a public figure. There were many, many people who had seen her every day at Versailles and at the Tuileries before she was put in the Temple. There were many who recognized her afterwards, reputable people, close servants; it did not even occur to them that she was not herself. So many family members - yes, Louis XVIII was shady, but Charles X, even though he was a rascal, was not shrewd enough for such a ruse and was terrible at keeping secrets. Angouleme and Berry were buffoonish in their own ways, but they were terribly indiscreet and would have blurted it to someone; then everyone would have known. I also cannot see them, Artois' sons, being so dishonest. Not to mention Cousin Chou-chou (the Duc be Bourbon) and his son, Enghien. And then the Orleans clan -they would have known and used it to launch a coup sooner than they actually did.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Sissi on August 23, 2006, 03:17:52 PM
I recently found this portrait which is said to be Louis XVII at the Tuilerie, I had never seen it before, I see a resemblance but I think also that the boy on the portrait looks old for a 7 years old Dauphin, what do you think? By the way it is at the Musee Carnavalet in Paris.

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Louis17carnavalet.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Louis17.jpg)

Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ilyala on August 24, 2006, 02:15:26 AM
i believe elena said once that she thought this was the first dauphin, louis-josephe, his older brother. louis-josephe was thinner and iller, while louis-charles was very healthy and robust.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on August 24, 2006, 05:52:08 AM
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Well, that is why as you said on another thread, people are still debating this. Not to question the DNA, but that heart could have been Louis Joseph's

It could not have been Louis Joseph's as Louis Joseph's had been embalmed on his death. Embalmed hearts show very different traits from those of the one which certainly belonged to Louis XVII (see Cadbury's book). I'm amazed how you all ignore the scientific conclusions.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Dmitry Russian on October 11, 2006, 04:32:06 PM
The poor and unfortunate kid! It is very a pity to me of this boy! It is guilty only that it was born in improper family during improper time and in the improper country. Why this poor boy has paid such terrible price for adults? Instead of this boy exist Charles X and Louis XVIII which have sat out in the English refuge and have returned to France only when Napoleon is in the reference. I think, nobody can replace this lost king. Now I hear about so-called Louis XX or duke of France and Paris, as about possible applicants for the French throne. But anybody from them will not replace the kid!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Temple?
Post by: Lucien on March 23, 2007, 02:42:17 AM


Another site:

http://www.nndb.com/people/974/000097683/





Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on March 30, 2007, 05:03:22 PM
Hi! Iam new to this, but believe that the dauphine did not die in the prison but was taken away and escaped to America. I was told ever since I was a child about my ancestor who was born in France in 1785. His parents were both beheaded at the time of the French Revolution. He was of the Royalty of France. He escaped and came to America on a boat. His parents had enormous wealth. In doing reserch on this Royal Family, I have run across pictures of Marie Antoinette and King Louis and King Charles. I can say that the pictures I have of my great great grandfather, my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father, my brother and my nephew as well as pictures of myself and a picture of my grandfathers cousin  RESEMBLE  this Royal Family.  Why do I have pictures of my family that resemble these people?  Could it be that I am right to think that my ancestor could be the LOST DAUPHINE?? I have tried to contact Universities and Professors of Genetics to see if someone would be interested in the pictures I have or just what to do from here on.  I am not making this up nor am I day dreaming as one Professor told me. I do not think that they want to listen to what I have to say for fear of having to change History. I am not a young inexperienced person in doing family history. I am 63 years old and have done family history for 50 years of my life and I am a member of the Daughters of The American Revolution as well. I had to research my family to prove that I had a Revolutionary Soldier. Can anyone tell me how to prove this?   Thank You.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on April 02, 2007, 04:37:27 PM
Whatever you believe, or whether your post was meant to be serious or not, the DNA testings have firmly established the dauphin died in the Temple. The heart couldn't have been  Louis Joseph's, so it was definitely that of Louis Charles.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 02, 2007, 05:26:03 PM
Dauphine? Louis XVII never married whilst he was DAUPHIN.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on April 03, 2007, 06:47:36 AM
Dream on. I resemble Marlon Brando but I definitely am not related to him. Least I don't think so... ;D  ;D


Nb: That's Marlon Brando when he was in his prime. Definitely not when he was older.  :-X
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on April 04, 2007, 02:48:07 AM
Dauphine? 

Yeah, I, too, thought this  strange  ;D :o
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 04, 2007, 06:29:19 PM
Well, I read a book by Debra Cadbury called 'the Lost King of France' which deals with this issue - it is a very sad story. Taking things like DNA into accout, I beleive she confirms that Louis XVII did indeed die the in the Temple Prison. His poor sister was tormented for the rest of her life by men claiming to be him, but would never meet her for fear she would identify them.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 04, 2007, 06:42:32 PM
Hi again, I did not explain that if the dauphine is my ancestor, maybe, that I know you think it strange that a young dauphine married. I did not say that, only that he came to America at age 7 to 10 years old. He did not marry until he was 29 years old.  I just read Deborah Cadbury's book also. The heart that they did the DNA test on, wasn't it taken from the body of the boy that died in the prison? Didn't they also dig the body up that was the boy that died in the prison? Wasn't there something said that this was not the dauphine because this boy was about 14 years old and had his molars and his legs and arms were the size of a older child than the dauphine?  Well, if the heart was taken from that boy's body, how could it then (after being decided that the body was not the dauphine's) how could the heart be his heart?  Was there two bodies and two hearts?  I did not read that. Explain this to me please!   Thank You.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 04, 2007, 07:43:15 PM
Why are you calling him a "dauphine"?  A dauphine is the WIFE of a dauphin. Anyone who claims such nonsense would surely know the correct  words. Especially if  such a person spoke even a modicum of French!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 05, 2007, 06:22:55 AM
Hi again! I stand corrected on what to call the dauphin!!!  I do not know the French language but I do decend from several different lines of French people. I beg your utmost pardon!!!  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on April 05, 2007, 06:31:24 AM
If I remember correctly, the heart's DNA was tested with Marie Antoinette's hair sample (correct me if I'm wrong),so, if the heart could only be that of Louis XVII or a fake Dauphin, then it must have been Louis XVII the child who died in the Temple, as the heart's DNA fitted with Marie Antoinette's.

So, unless anybody wants to start a new story about the fake child (who never existed) being a bastard son of Marie Antoinette and Fersen (or whoever ;D ;D), I think we should definitely state that the child died aged 10 in 1795 and let him rest in peace!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on April 05, 2007, 06:33:26 AM
By the way, Hi! to everyone again! :P
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 06, 2007, 08:21:06 PM
Hi again, I am not making anymore comments or any contradictions to anything that anyone has to say about the Lost Dauphin.  It seems like History, the Government or just who ever has decided that enough is enough. So be it. I hope everyone is satisfied with the results of  two hundred years of cover up .   Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 06, 2007, 08:44:04 PM
Just what would be the logical  reason for a "cover-up"?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 08, 2007, 07:45:17 PM
Hi I said I would not make onymore comments. But I will say this. If you were the son of King Louis and Marie Antoinette and they beheaded your parents and put you in a prison and by chance you did get out of that prison and find that you were on a boat and was "free". that you only had to work for you passage over and then could continue on with your life, wouldn't you live the rest of your life to (cover up) the fact that you had anything to do with the King and Queen of France that everyone hated so much. Wouldn't you also be afraid to say anything that would lead onyone to finding out who you really was?  Remember, they wanted to do away with the dauphin! There were men that came forth with claims of being the dauphin becasue they wanted money, plain and simple, but if you were as afraid as I can imagine from all the abuse and mistreatment and fear the this child went thru, then I can understand why he would simply keep quiet and not say anything. That he may say something to his children, so they would know something about where he came from but not even to tell them that he was the lost dauphin.  He would not care for France and how they treated him and his parents. He would forever turn his back on that part of his life and continue on living his common man's life.   Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 08, 2007, 07:51:09 PM
No.
No one else in the family hid their heritage, so why not?
However, this is the day of Ressurection. Bon Pasque!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 08, 2007, 08:00:15 PM
    And since I started this, I will finish it. Since the body of the dauphin and the heart that they did the DNA on had DNA that matched Marie Antoiette ancestors it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the boy was relation to Marie Antoinette, but  it did not prove that Marie Antoinette was the mother of this boy.  Read about it on the web sites and also in the book written by Deborah Cadbury. Yet, everyone has no doubt. Ok. If that is what everyone thinks, let them. Now, I will not NOT make any more postings. Especially since I am wrong and every one else is right. I'm not fighting for anything. I have my own reasons to believe what I think is right.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Elizaveta on April 08, 2007, 09:10:52 PM
Wow. That's all I can say.  ::)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on April 11, 2007, 11:35:34 AM
" 'It puts to an end a mystery that has absorbed so many of us. The DNA analysis show's the child's heart is from a member of the Habsburg family. The historical research shows that this heart came from the orphan of the Temple. Since, apart from Marie-Thérèse who survived, the only other relative of Marie-Antoinette in the Temple in 1795 was Louis-Charles, now we have an answer`.' " (Delorme in The Lost King of France by Deborah Cadbury, p.281 f.)

I wonder how someone can convincingly argue this heart belonged to a member of the Habsburg family other than the dauphin. Would be interesting to know how to establish such a theory which fits  historical research. But maybe Carol Jean can come forward with one . . . ::)

Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 11, 2007, 07:30:42 PM
Hi!  I said that I was through putting any more comments on this  because no one wants anything to come up differently than what the Professors and Historians say is the way it was. There was a Mrs. Simon ( read about her in the book by Deborah Cadbury) that told repeaditly that the true Louis Charles was smuggled out of the prison in a clothes basket and another boy put in his place.  No one listened to her very much, did they? The boy was taken care of  by several different people over the time he spent in the prison. When new people took over to care for him, did they actually know him and were familiar with him? Read about that in the book also. Even the Doctor that did the autopsy, was he familiar with the boy for the previous years? Were they certain that it was actualy Louis Charles? And why didn't they let Louis Charles's sister, Madam Royal see her brother's dead body for verification and to prove that it was actually  Louis Charles that had died in that prison? Why has so many things happened to make it that there could be any doubt. If his sister, who was only one floor above him was only permitted to come down and make positive proof of his identity, then I would not question any of this. I question it because of all of these things and the fact that seven generations down from this family in time, and with the story and family tradition that has been handed down, that I can see resemblences in not just one or two of my family but in six or seven different people, all decendants of a boy born in France in 1785 that said his parents were wealthy and were beheaded and that he had excaped France and never wanted anything more to do with that part of his life. Now that I have said this, I hope that I can keep my promise and not post any more to this at all. In the mean time, I will go on doing my research and try to find out for myself why I am thinking the way I do about this ancestor of mine.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 19, 2007, 06:06:48 AM
Sorry if I offended anyone. Comments can be made to this. Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on April 19, 2007, 02:54:19 PM
Sorry if I offended anyone. Comments can be made to this. Carol Jean

No, you didn't offend anyone I suppose.
Bu you still haven't come forward with a theory about what other Habsburg heart than that of Louis XVII the heart in question could have been.
All the other points you raise have already been dealt with in Cadbury's book. They don't support your theory.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 20, 2007, 06:12:28 AM
HI!  The only comment that I will make is this: It depends on how one is looking at something as to what they perceive. Remember the story of the four blind men trying to describe the elephant. Each one was feeling different parts of the elephant and described that what they thought. So, I don't think that it would make any difference to any one of you that has a different perspective what I would say. So therefore I will end this. As for as the heart, there was quite a few decendants of the Hapsburgs and maybe one of the male children was put in Louis Charles's place. Does any one know all of the children of Marie Antoinette's sisters and brothers and what happended to them? But, I get the distint impression that I may just as well shut my mouth and never ever make a comment  about what I think again!  Seems like you all think that I'm missing a brain.  Thanks for your comments. Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 19, 2007, 08:01:59 PM
To be honest, we have no reason to think he didn't die in the tower and that the body without the heart wasn't his, except for some lady who claimed someone switched the bodies with another boy, but we don't really have a reason to believe her.

The DNA from the heart also matched with his relatives, of course it's kind of hard to take a heart that been passed around for centuries as being absolutely conclusive  :-X.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on June 01, 2007, 06:58:15 AM
I'm sorry, but Iam not the one who said that someone smuggled out the real Louis Charles in a laundry basket. That was Madam Simon. That is in the book written by Deborah Cadberry. Evidently everyone just overlooked her comments as a crazy person, but she was present at the time Louis Charles was in the prison and her husband was training Louis Charles to learn a trade, so she must have had some connection with Louis Charles. Why did she say that Louis Charles had escaped in a laundry basket?  I will not make any other comment on this. Just read it in Deborah Cadberry's book. Seems like everyone thinks highly of what Deborah Cadberry has in her book.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on June 01, 2007, 07:06:18 AM
And while I'm posting,just what kind of diease makes a childs arms and legs grow extra long? They said that the body of the boy who died in the prison had longer legs and arms and appeared to be about 14 years old. They said that an illness had caused Louis Charles's arms and legs to grow extra long. Do we have any record of an illness that causes this to happen to a child? That is also in Deborah Cadberry's book. Let me know if you know of an illness that causes this to happen to a child.  Remember, Louis Charles was ONLY seven to ten years old.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kimberly on June 01, 2007, 11:22:01 AM
Hi Carol-Jean, do you mean the corpse exhumed by Laguerre and his team in 1894?? If so it was surely the wrong corpse :-\
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 01, 2007, 05:40:50 PM
That is rather interesting. Why would she say that?  :-\ What possible motive would she have to make something like that up?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on June 03, 2007, 06:40:32 PM
Iam not making any thing up. I have read about what I have posted, in Deborah Cadberry's  book. I read about Mrs. Simon saying that some one smuggled Louis Charles out in a laundry basket and another boy put in his place. I read about the boy the autopsy was done on and that someone made the comment that the boys arms and legs were extra long for a boy between 7 and 10 years old and that he had molers already and appeared to be about 14 years old. They said that he must have had some sort of illness that caused his arms and legs to grow so fast! But what about his molars? Most people are 12 years old before they have molars, aren't they? I just have been really examining the facts that have been written in Deborah Cadberry's book and I guess I just don't believe that the boy that died in the prison was the real Louis Charles. I think that with all the evidence and what had been told about the boy that DID die in the prison, that someone would question it. Louis Charles was born in 1785. If he was the child that died in the prison in 1795 he was ONLY 10 years old. And if he was really Louis Charles and they didn't have anything to hide about his death then his sister should have been able to confirm his death by at least being able to identify his body. BUT, they didn't let this happen. I think it was because they knew that she would know that it was not her brother. BUT, they would rather let her wonder the rest of her life. Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 04, 2007, 04:25:58 PM
Iam not making any thing up. I have read about what I have posted, in Deborah Cadberry's  book. I read about Mrs. Simon saying that some one smuggled Louis Charles out in a laundry basket and another boy put in his place. I read about the boy the autopsy was done on and that someone made the comment that the boys arms and legs were extra long for a boy between 7 and 10 years old and that he had molers already and appeared to be about 14 years old. They said that he must have had some sort of illness that caused his arms and legs to grow so fast! But what about his molars? Most people are 12 years old before they have molars, aren't they? I just have been really examining the facts that have been written in Deborah Cadberry's book and I guess I just don't believe that the boy that died in the prison was the real Louis Charles. I think that with all the evidence and what had been told about the boy that DID die in the prison, that someone would question it. Louis Charles was born in 1785. If he was the child that died in the prison in 1795 he was ONLY 10 years old. And if he was really Louis Charles and they didn't have anything to hide about his death then his sister should have been able to confirm his death by at least being able to identify his body. BUT, they didn't let this happen. I think it was because they knew that she would know that it was not her brother. BUT, they would rather let her wonder the rest of her life. Carol Jean
lol I didn't mean you were making anything up. I meant the woman who said Louis Charles's body was switched.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on June 04, 2007, 05:55:18 PM
Yes, that is my question as well. Why did Madam Simon say that the boy was smuggled out in a laundry basket and another boy put in his place? And why didn't some one think that this might have happened when they found that the boy that died in the prison had long legs and long arms for a boy who was only at the most 10 years old. And why didn't they question it even furthur when they found that he had molars? The Doctor that did the autopsy on the boy that died in the prison WAS NOT the Doctor that had taken care of Louis Charles from the time he was put in the prison until this boy died in the prison. I ask if the Doctor even knew Louis Charles. The first Doctor died before the boy in the prison died and another Doctor took over.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: imperial angel on July 17, 2007, 04:37:48 PM
He certainly died in the Tower. In a way, his fate is a bit like the sons of Edward IV in England, although they were likely murdered by Richard III. Then, there is Tsarvitch Alexei. All of these heirs met their fate simply because if who they were. All of them had imposters later, who claimed to be them. In the case of Louis XVII, I don't think there can be any doubt about the DNA testing, in my opinion. It fits very neatly,even given the controversial history of the heart. As for Marie- Therese, I am sure she was affected by everything, and it's too bad her later life and marriage was such a tragedy, in a way. Maybe had she married into another royal family, she might have had a better chance to blossom and leave the past behind her, but who knows??? She must have had conflicted feelings about the role her brother played in events, agreed.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 24, 2007, 07:05:28 AM
Maybe had she married into another royal family, she might have had a better chance to blossom and leave the past behind her, but who knows???

I doubt that would have made any different. She was irrevocably scarred by the whole experience and hardly suprising. :(
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: ashdean on July 24, 2007, 10:08:23 AM
Maybe had she married into another royal family, she might have had a better chance to blossom and leave the past behind her, but who knows???

I doubt that would have made any different. She was irrevocably scarred by the whole experience and hardly suprising. :(
Marie Therese might have lived  long life but it was as tragic...perhaps even more so than her brothers..
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: imperial angel on July 24, 2007, 05:53:41 PM
Yes, that is so. She suffered many tragedies. I guess why I said she might have been happier married into another royal family, is because I read in Deborah Cadbury's book that there were plans when she was young( but after the Revolution) to marry her into the Austrian royal family. That made me wonder if she would have been happier if her marriage hadn't been so unfortunate, on top of the things she already had suffered.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 10, 2007, 08:34:44 AM
:(
Poor little Louis XVII - the ill-fated son of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI - was forcibly taken from his mother and sister after his father's execution and given to one of the jailers where he was brainwashed into saying at his mother's trial that she was incestuously involved with him!  I simply cannot imagine her anguish at seeing him and hearing the obscenities he was uttering.  

Then after her execution - he passes into the pages of history -- most people believing he died of abuse and neglect in the Tower - but many people came forward later claiming to be this same boy.
Echoes of GD Anastasia!   :-/

What is everyone's opinion on this?  How do you think he died?  

Like most people, I find it hard to believe that the French - having murdered Louis and Antoinette - would let the male heir live.  Still, the romantic in me would like to think he did.  There was a movie with Anthony Andrews and Jane Seymore that suggested that the Scarlet Pimpernel rescued the little prince.  Nice idea - but again only a movie! :)
Janet R.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 10, 2007, 08:53:12 AM
Dream on. I resemble Marlon Brando but I definitely am not related to him. Least I don't think so... ;D  ;D


Nb: That's Marlon Brando when he was in his prime. Definitely not when he was older.  :-X

That response was mean-spirited and un-called for.  Perhaps it is preferable to attack with facts than personal indictments?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 10, 2007, 08:58:32 AM
Why are you calling him a "dauphine"?  A dauphine is the WIFE of a dauphin. Anyone who claims such nonsense would surely know the correct  words. Especially if  such a person spoke even a modicum of French!

Why the pettiness?  Attack the poor woman on the facts but to say her arguments have no validity because she can't spell in French or English is just unnecessary, surely?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 10, 2007, 09:19:51 AM
   And since I started this, I will finish it. Since the body of the dauphin and the heart that they did the DNA on had DNA that matched Marie Antoiette ancestors it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the boy was relation to Marie Antoinette, but  it did not prove that Marie Antoinette was the mother of this boy.  Read about it on the web sites and also in the book written by Deborah Cadbury. Yet, everyone has no doubt. Ok. If that is what everyone thinks, let them. Now, I will not NOT make any more postings. Especially since I am wrong and every one else is right. I'm not fighting for anything. I have my own reasons to believe what I think is right.  Carol Jean

I believe two things on this topic.  First, I think everyone on this website would love to believe that Louis XVII survived and escaped French "justice".  The second thing I believe is that history is just a consensus of opinion.  But it is still just an opinion.  I think it takes a brave soul to challenge the establishment but, having said that people used to believe the world was flat and if you got to the end of the world, you'd fall off.  Obviously, we now know this is not so.  In view of this, I think it is healthy to challenge established views but you need to back this challenge with testable facts that are stronger than existing theories.  It is not helpful to dismiss established views with claims of cover ups or conspiracy theories because the only people who are really interested in these are the tabloid media.

I personally would love to find irrefutable evidence that the Dauphin escaped to America but it would take a lot.  Claims that it was easy because his dead parents were loaded simply don't hold water because the French Treasury (and therefore the French monarchy) were bankrupt at the time.  Have you got anything else?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: dmitri on August 10, 2007, 08:38:57 PM
No as there isn't any.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 10, 2007, 09:25:13 PM
No as there isn't any.

Thanks, Dmitri but this was a question for Carol Jean.  She has raised some interesting assertions and I would like to remain open to possibilities.

I'm not saying that I prescribe to this theory but one possible way the Dauphin may have survived is via Fersen.  Perhaps Fersen paid off one or more of the guards in the Tower to give him the child (and replace him with an alternative).  The guards were known to be open to bribes according to Antoinia Fraser and Fersen had significant financial resources behind him.  But what to do with the child?  The Hapsburgs had shown themselves to be bloody useless in assistance with  Antoinette so maybe Fersen turned to the Americans?   Benjamin Franklin had been in France and the French monarchy had rendered financial assistance in the American Revolution. Perhaps Franklin or others agreed to help Fersen get the kid out in return.

I'm not saying that I prescribe to this theory, Dmitri.  Not by a long shot.  But I am open to possibilities.  America would have been a long way to send the Dauphin but - on the other hand - it would be one of the last places the French would have looked for him if they discovered the switch.  This would have made America a perfect choice.

Again, I am just exploring possibilities but I have posed the question to Carol Jean since she raised the issue in the first place.  Being a gentleman and a scholar, I'm sure you will give the lady first go at the questions I have raised.

Thanks
Sophie
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on August 11, 2007, 12:01:41 AM
I've long been a lover of Marie Antoinette and pondered the possibility of survival until I came across a news article speaking about the heart found in that French Revolution reliquaries (?) museum. After having read it I would say I'm one of those who believe Louis-Charles died in the Temple Prison. However after reading The Scarlett Pimpernel I cannot help but admit it is nice to imagine that he could have been liquidated and spared further torment. Well thats my bit on the matter  :-\
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Mari on August 11, 2007, 12:13:37 AM
I think a lot of us wish the little Prince could have escaped....

I wonder where Carol Jean is now? She hasn't posted in quite a while......
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 11, 2007, 01:20:36 AM
I've long been a lover of Marie Antoinette and pondered the possibility of survival until I came across a news article speaking about the heart found in that French Revolution reliquaries (?) museum. After having read it I would say I'm one of those who believe Louis-Charles died in the Temple Prison. However after reading The Scarlett Pimpernel I cannot help but admit it is nice to  imagine that he could have been liquidated and spared further torment. Well thats my bit on the matter  :-\

I think all of us would prefer the Scarlett Pimpernel version.  In view of this, it would be very interesting to pursue Carol Jean's thesis to see where it leads us.  Where are you, Carol Jean? ??? ???
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 13, 2007, 05:38:04 PM
Hi, I have not posted anything on this for some time because I felt that everyone thought that I was just bringing something out to be re-hashed again and that everyone wanted to just accept what the historians and professors said about little Louis Charles and leave history alone. But, I have been busy doing something on my own that will come out in a few months that may change how people think of what I have been saying. I will let you know what it is when I have accomplished my mission.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: LouisXX on August 13, 2007, 10:10:43 PM
 ;D  I have to confess, I am very new to this forum, and to what sort of people are interested in it.  But I must say I am extremlel happy with the amount of enthusiasm that is displayed on the last royals of the ancien regime; how they lived, were loved, hated, and perished.  I remember one of the first things that had to drawn me to Versailles and the eve of the revolution in that place was little Louis Charles, and I have always felt, maybe somehow he did escape.  Though many signs point to no, that many more point to yes.  It would not have been all that impossible, and I hope that we can truly find out if he did.  Keep the faith guys! 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 14, 2007, 01:49:10 AM
Hi, I have not posted anything on this for some time because I felt that everyone thought that I was just bringing something out to be re-hashed again and that everyone wanted to just accept what the historians and professors said about little Louis Charles and leave history alone. But, I have been busy doing something on my own that will come out in a few months that may change how people think of what I have been saying. I will let you know what it is when I have accomplished my mission.  Carol Jean

Carol Jean, good to hear from you! 8) 8) 8)

I understand your sentiments because I have encountered a number of people who are not only arrogant and intransigient with what they know - or think they know - they also feel the need to publicly flog/undermine anyone who raises the slightest bit of doubt in relation to their views.  However, there are many more very intelligent, very knowledgeable people who want to know more and are happy to challenge the establishment should new evidence come to pass.  In view of this, I would encourage you to share your views with those of us who have open minds (and hearts).  You never know, we may me able to help!

Cheers
Sophie :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 14, 2007, 05:36:38 PM
Thank you for your kind words! I have been very busy on something that is very important to me and it  will be available to everyone in the next month or so. I feel that everyone needs to be able to see things from my point of view in order to fully understand what I have said on this forum. So for now, thank you for understanding that not all people are highly educated but that doesn't mean that they can not reason or figure out something or see something that others just can not see.  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 13, 2007, 04:14:40 PM
Hi again to everyone! Just wanted to tell you that my project is about complete and I will have a book published soon. It is titled Could Marie Antoinette be my great, great, great, great grandmother. It has many pictures in it to show what I have been talking about and why I believe like I do. I will have a web site also so anyone can get the book. Thanks for your kind words.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Mari on September 14, 2007, 04:38:58 AM
 Carol Jean After the Web site is set up please post a link. I would like to see your Pictures.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 14, 2007, 06:46:25 PM
The book has just gone to the printer .
I have done my best not to have any errors in the book. It has been a chalenge. Tell me what you think of it. Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 15, 2007, 01:33:34 PM
No offence but I always find it so funny when people compare pictures of those that are long dead with more recent individuals to show similarities (or not!) :) There was a similar incident on the Windsor threads that compared Queen Mary with a 12 year old boy!!!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 15, 2007, 04:11:57 PM
Thank you for your opinion. I like it when people say what they think! Thank you so very much!!  Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 15, 2007, 05:14:00 PM
Just one comment. Most of us inherited our looks from our parents or grandparents. Who did they inherit their looks from? Probably they inherited their looks from their parents or grandparents. Isn't one of the very first things that you hear someone say about a new baby is that the baby looks just like his daddy? What was said when daddy was born? Was it said that the looked just like his daddy?
I can see that not all people look like their parents but they do resemble someone in their ancestry because of the fact of inheriting their genes from their ancestors. So much for that. Thank you any way for you comment. Carol Jean
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 19, 2007, 06:47:52 PM
To let you know that I have a book that I'm publishing about my belief that my ancestor is the son of Marie Antoinette. I have put a link to the cover of the book in a previous posting so that you can see what I am talking about since most people do not want to believe anything that I have posted. So far I have not had but one comment about this so I guess that no one wants to say anything about it. Whatever, maybe you just haven't looked yet. I know that a lot of people will have negative remarks to make.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 20, 2007, 10:33:18 AM
Oh don't worry about it dear. I don't think anyone gives two hoots about your ancestor, that's probably why know one has replied. You are entitled to believe what you like. (For example I like to think i'm descended from Adonis). But most people know that Louis died in the tower (I always feel sorry for poor Marie Therese who was plagued by pretenders!)   :(

Good luck with your book! There might be some entertainment value in it?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kimberly on September 20, 2007, 12:15:17 PM
I've had a look Carol-Jean and very good luck to you.Keep us updated on the sales of your book.
Oh and Eddieboy REALLY is descended from Adonis. ;)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on October 31, 2007, 06:28:02 PM
Just to let you know that my book is being published and will be in print soon. I have 50 pictures in the book. I have comparison pictures of my Guinn family (descendants of the little boy that escaped France and the French Revolution) and pictures of the Royal Family. I have pictures of all of my great great grandmothers to show that I look more like Marie Antoinette than I do any of them. It is a very interesting study.  I have already posted a link to my web site in case any one wants to look. Carol
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: coquelicot on November 01, 2007, 04:13:47 PM
So you look like Marie Antoinette, dear Carol Jean ? Could you post pictures of you, so that we could compare ?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 01, 2007, 07:31:01 PM
Eddieboy, you must be elated to my first cousin.He is a direct decendant of Zeus!
You should all meet up up at the next reunioin on Mt.Olympos.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 01, 2007, 08:13:51 PM
Yes, I know that sounds like I must be some sort of a crazy person, but I  am not crazy nor am I just trying to be something that I am not either. I have done genealogy and worked on my family lines for 50 years of my life, so I have worked on my family history longer than most of you have been living. I have put this book together in good faith that I have done all the research and have put together what I myself consider more proof than most any one else on this planet has about what actually happened to the Lost Dauphin. I know that I will be rediculed and jeered at because of unbelief. I have previously posted a link to the cover of my book, but  inside the book is more proof than anyone else has assembled together. Most everyone just guesses at what happened to the Lost Dauphin and if he was truly King Louis's son and not Axel Von Fersen's son and so on. Enough said.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 02, 2007, 12:09:37 AM
My Dear Carol Jean,
The one question I have is what do you hope to achieve by advertising the fact that you are related to Marie A?
Money?,notoriety, power? Personal satisfaction?
Do a dna with Louis 20th and the problem is solved.
How is ex princess Lisa lately?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: coquelicot on November 02, 2007, 04:05:53 AM
Quote
he was truly King Louis's son and not Axel Von Fersen's son and so on
Of course he was ! About that I have not a single doubt !
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2007, 04:39:48 AM
There is a difference between advertising one's ancestry for motives such as fame, wealth, and money, even if this ancestry is true, and would entitle you to some or all of this if it could be proved, and a difference between having pride in one's ancestry simply for the fact of what it is. To me, the mystery of Louis XVII was solved, albeit tragically, when I read Deborah Cadbury's book on the subject, not sure of the title off the top of my head. You can debate this, but it seems authoritative to me, and that's what I believe until more compelling evidence comes along. There might well still be questions in some people's heads, but not in mine. I didn't know the story of this tragic boy really well until I read that book, so I didn't mean to say I ever had doubts. I guess people can believe what they want to believe, and if that is the truth to them, and comforting, okay- I am not here to condemn or make fun of, but simply to say this case seems already closed by scientific evidence.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vasaborg on November 02, 2007, 02:18:22 PM
Is there any chance that the DNA taken from the embalmed heart was from the wrong Dauphin? Could it have been taken from the heart of the first Dauphin?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Silja on November 02, 2007, 04:39:29 PM
Is there any chance that the DNA taken from the embalmed heart was from the wrong Dauphin? Could it have been taken from the heart of the first Dauphin?

Most unlikely because the first dauphin's heart had been embalmed. The heart which was tested and which was proved to belong to a relative of Marie Antoinette's was not.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 03, 2007, 07:16:34 PM
If you read the book by Deborah Cadbury, you will have read in it that DNA proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the heart of the boy that died in the prison was indeed a RELATIVE of Marie Antoinette's. But you will also read in Deborah Cadbury's book that the test done on the heart DID NOT prove that the boy that died in the prison was Maria Antoinette's son. I also read her book. I also read in her book that a Mrs. Simon, the wife of the man who brutalized Louis Charles said repeaditly that the REAL Louis Charles was smuggled out of the prison in a laundry basket and escaped. I'm quoting from Deborah Cadbury's book. This is not something I am making up. I have asked the question why the DNA test did not prove that the boy that died in the prison was Marie Antoinette's son as half of his DNA would MATCH up with her DNA and the other half would be his fathers DNA.  So science should have told us that half of the boys DNA matched EXACTLY with Marie Antoinette's DNA.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 04, 2007, 02:50:07 PM
Tell me how a DNA test on Louis 20th would prove anything? If you are correct that the boy that died in the prison was Louis Charles and that his sister did not have any children, then who would have any DNA that would match up with the Royal family beside the children of King Charles X? Just curious.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 04, 2007, 06:07:21 PM
I'm not against anyone here, but I just wanted to say, is there not a full lock of Marie Antoinette's hair in some kind of embroidery piece? That could certainly be used as DNA for testing.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 04, 2007, 06:23:13 PM
Yes, but that lock of hair from Marie Antoinette can only be tested on a son, not the son's son or on down thru that line. It can be tested on the daughter of her daughter and then the daughter of that daughter on down thru the daughters, but when it comes to the male line down, it can only be tested on the son of Marie Antoinette. That is why I have said that the test that they did on the heart of the boy that died in the prison should have sientifically proven that Marie Antoinette WAS his mother and not that it proved that the boy that died in the prison was her RELATIVE. I found this out when I wanted to do a DNA test on myself as I decend from the male line down (if I am correct in what I'm thinking).
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2007, 07:53:43 AM


Please, Carol Jean, don't take my words as being nasty or rude, as I think you have been very gentle in your accounts and I wouldn't like to break up the general tone of this discussion. Now, that said, I think everyone is free of thinkg they descend from this or that king or queen and it may indeed be true, but I don't think this can be proved by showing photos. Not even by DNA tests that, with centuries of distance would be dubious at the best. I think irrefutable proof of this alleged parentage would be producing letters proved to be real of the people involved in what happened in the 18th century and then a series of birth certificates demonstrating that you indeed descend from this long lost prince.

From what I read and what my general impression is, more importantly after scientists have tested a heart supposed to be that of Louis Charles with Marie Antoinette's hair and having obtained some results of significant positive character, I would say the Dauphin did indeed die in prison. Then, scientific questions put aside, I would think it most difficult for a child so firmly guarded as Louis Charles to not only to scape, but also to survive to the long and difficult journey to safe United States without any noble or important person helping him and writing down somewhere that the Dauphin was alive and safe by his own hand in the U.S.

But then, if you could prove this alleged parentage with real documents rather than with photographs, I would be mostly interested. And I think I wouldn't be the only one...
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 05, 2007, 11:35:09 AM
Eddieboy, you must be elated to my first cousin.He is a direct decendant of Zeus!
You should all meet up up at the next reunioin on Mt.Olympos.



How is ex princess Lisa lately?


lol, hilarious!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 05, 2007, 01:23:05 PM
I am not just showing photographs. My ancestor was born in France in 1785 (same year as the dolphin) he escaped the French Revolution and came to America as a stow a way on a boat. His intention was to hide until he arrived in the U.S. He was discovered and someone paid his passage for which he worked for that person seven years to pay him back. I have researched his life from the time he came to America until his death. His two sons descendants BOTH told their descendants the same tradition that he was of the Royalty of France, that his parents had enormous wealth and that both his mother and father were beheaded at the time of the French Revolution. I ask you who had enormous wealth, were the Royalty of France and both the man and his wife (both) beheaded at the time of the French Revolution? I have found a listing of those beheaded at the time of the French Revolution and I did not find any husband and wife BOTH beheaded BUT the King and Queen. I did not set out to find a connection to any Royalty nor am I looking for fame or fortune. This all began as a quest to find out the truth about my ancestor. I just wanted to know who my ancestors were in France. Then I found pictures of the King and Queen and saw the likeness and could not believe what I was looking at.
So, that is what my quest has been all about. How come is it that my Dad, my Grandfather, my great grandfather and my great great grandfather look like King Louis XVI? And why do I have any resemblence to Marie Antoinette unless I am right that my ancestor was the lost dauphin. I have pictures of all of my great great grandmothers and I do not resemble them, but I can see a resemblence to Marie Antoinette. Even my nephew has a resemblence to King Louis XVI. How come?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 05, 2007, 01:38:41 PM
Carol Jean, as I pointed out earlier I resemble Adonis oh and Michelangelo David, does that make me a relation of them?? All you have to go on is hear say, he said this, he resembled this etc..it's all very wooly.
 :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2007, 01:55:29 PM

That's what I exactly meant. It's nothing personal against you, Carol Jean, but all the evidence you provide is subjective and intangible... I know people who look amazingly like each other and still have nothing in common, genetically speaking.

Furthermore, as belonging to the Royal Family of France is something you knew by oral tradition, it's easy that you could in fact be descended from France's haute noblesse and that this fact has become enhanced during all those generations until you were born. And there were also hundreds of people guillotined and persecuted during the French Revolution who were descendants of other kings of France. Or it could just be a legend. My mother's surname is Berenguer, and in our family oral tradition states that we are descended from the Counts of Barcelona and Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, el Cid. I would love to be descended from them, but as yet I haven't found any tangible proof of it, so I just take it as what it is until now: oral tradition, family legend...

What I mean is what Eddieboy has pointed out: without any biological or documentray proof, your quest, as you name it, won't have any validity as an investigation. I maintain that it would have been impossible for Louis Charles to escape alone; at the same time, it would have been impossible for someone to help him out and not to write anything about it or at least tell it to someone!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 05, 2007, 03:18:55 PM
His two sons descendants BOTH told their descendants the same tradition that he was of the Royalty of France, that his parents had enormous wealth and that both his mother and father were beheaded at the time of the French Revolution. I ask you who had enormous wealth, were the Royalty of France and both the man and his wife (both) beheaded at the time of the French Revolution? I have found a listing of those beheaded at the time of the French Revolution and I did not find any husband and wife BOTH beheaded BUT the King and Queen.

Like Umigon said, I don't want to be critical or rude towards you Carol Jean, but there were most certainly entire families of Aristocrats, between 18,000 and 40,000 people in total, beheaded during the Reign of Terror. Just off the top of my head, the Marquis de St. Cyr (I'm sure thats his name) and his family were all executed, and even Camille Desmoulins and Luciille Duplessis and their son Horace were all executed. The latter may not be aristocrat's but it just goes to show that entire families were in fact condmened to death. I even recall reading the executioner Samson's memories of having to guillotine small children and them not even being big enough to fit on the scaffold properly.

Again, no offense, I just wanted to point that out.

Also like Umigon stated that they themself may be descended from those persons, I may or may not be related to the Unsinkable Molly Brown (Margaret Brown). My mother's maiden name is Brown and my grandfather has persistently told me she is my great-great aunt by marriage. As much as I'd love to believe him, I'm just the slightest bit skeptical unless I actually had psychical evidence such as a marriage certificate or something to prove it. She did play an important role in the Titanic tragedy, and has even been portrayed in movies, and the idea that I really am related leaves me uncertain as to it's truth. Again it's like one of those family legends.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 05, 2007, 03:37:31 PM
Not to get off topic but Horace was only about 2 when his parents where guillotined. He died in 1825. I've not read anything about them executing children, i'm a bit skeptical about that. I personally beieve they spared Madame Royale because of her age...
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 05, 2007, 05:18:13 PM
OK. If you want to tell me I'm full of it, go ahead! Where in the world do you think you would find something written down about an escape of the future king  that they all wanted to see die????? I have had it  with that kind of thinking---yet you believe that that heart that had been thrown around and was as solid as a rock that it proved the boy died in the prison! And you believe that Louis Charles had some sort of diease that made his arms and legs grow long as a fourteen year old boy when he died at the age of seven or eight! Really!! I can only say that this is my last posting. I will not post on this forum ever again.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2007, 06:30:14 PM

Carol Jean, I think we were very polite, and I don't understand your reaction. This is a discussion forum and we come here to discuss. We just pointed out some facts we think would be important to support your theory that you haven't come forward with. It was just that: amiable discussion, I would say. Nothing else.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 05, 2007, 10:18:12 PM
Not to get off topic but Horace was only about 2 when his parents where guillotined. He died in 1825. I've not read anything about them executing children, i'm a bit skeptical about that. I personally beieve they spared Madame Royale because of her age...

Whoops, I looked that up and you're definitely right, he died that year in Haiti. Sorry about that...  :-[  And I would definitely concur with the notion of Marie Therese's age being a factor in her survival.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: umigon on November 06, 2007, 06:54:54 AM

Teenagers were also executed during the Revolution... I guess not only age, but also her position as a hostage to exchange with Austria, as I think it did occur. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 06, 2007, 06:58:45 AM
I am sorry for the statement that I made. But really, what kind of document would have been written anywhere that would say that the lost dauphin escaped and that someone had helped him get on a boat and sail to America and freedom? They wanted to kill him as he was next in line to be the King and they wanted to do away with the King and his family. I ask you a question. How much proof did someone have to start the BELIEF that we evolved from APES? Was there some sort of document that said that this human baby had an ape for a mother?
How many people believe this? Yet this was and still is believed. I will just let my book speak for itself and not try to convience anyone that I have some documented proof on this forum.
Thanks for setting me straight!  You are all very inteligent people and I'm sure you know what your talking about. There will be plenty of discussion about this topic I'am sure and some may agree with me and some may think that I don't have enough evidence or nothing in concrete evidence. Ok. Everyone can say and think what they want to, but people have believed a lot of things in this world with almost no evidence to prove it. Enough said.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: coquelicot on November 06, 2007, 10:50:25 AM
You can't compare speculations about an historical character to this scientific theory of evolution, can you ?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vasaborg on November 06, 2007, 03:09:42 PM
I find it strange that who ever rescued him did not leave some written account of what happened before they died. I cant see such an important moment in history as this going unrecorded.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 06, 2007, 04:08:02 PM
Yes, that would have been the absolute thing to do wouldn't it? I guess that everyone would think of doing just that. Any body that has an important place in History writes down what they did. Even if you would get your head chopped off because you were a part of some scheme to free the son of King Louis and Marie Antoinette, you would write it down so that 200 and more years later there would be no doubt about what happened. It would have been really nice if Madame Royal got to see her little brothers dead body so that she could positively identify it but for some strange reason that was not the case. And what is scientific evidence? It is a theory, a belief, based on what some one works on for years and then comes to a conclusion about. Some scientific thoughts do not have any more proof than what some smart educated  person has came up with that everyone else accepts as the absolute truth.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on November 06, 2007, 04:17:10 PM
Oh and Eddie Boy, I would definately look up my genealogy if I was you! You may just be surprised as to who you are relation to (especially since you say you look like them)!  Oh yes, I guess we all look like someone weather we have any connection or not. People look like people thank goodness not the first ancestors that some think we descend from.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 07, 2007, 01:50:39 AM
Well I wouldn't want anyone thinking i'm after fame and fortune! I will let the resemblance's speak for themselves.  ;)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vasaborg on November 07, 2007, 01:51:42 PM
I dont think there was much chance of the person getting their head "chopped off" years after the revolution, Its strange that when the Bourbons were restored  nobody said anything about  the Dauphin being alive , if he was alive why didnt he go back to France and claim the throne?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 07, 2007, 02:12:27 PM
And, since the Habsburgs took in Marie Louise and Napoleon's son, why would they ignore the Dauphin of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI ? This whole story is just as preposterous as some ex-princess claiming to be TWICE decended from Nicholas !!. Just a fantasy.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: BeautyQueen on November 09, 2007, 09:20:43 AM
I don't understand why you all have to start different subjects, out of one. Did he die in the tower? Yes, he sadly did. That's all there is to it.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Alixz on December 11, 2007, 06:43:45 PM
There is a disease called marfan's that makes the arms and legs of a person longer than the norm.  Abraham Lincoln had it.  That is why he was so tall and thin and lanky.  In comparison to a person with "normal" length arms and legs, marfan's sufferers have a normal trunk but their arms and legs are longer than we normally see.

It is an inherited defect.  But more than that I don't know.

I have never posted in this section before, I don't know that much about French Royalty.

But it seems that every family has some story that has been handed down.  My own has several (which I won't bore you with) but even though I have done some research, I have found nothing to substantiate any of the stories that I grew up hearing.

One of things that brought people to America was the idea of a "new beginning".  Many wanted to drop their old life and begin a new one without the excess baggage that they had carried around with them in Europe.  And many made up stories to make themselves more important than they were back home in Europe.

Not to be disrespectful, but this story sounds a bit like John Jakes and his Phillipe Charbeneux who became Philip Kent.  Anyone remember the Kent Family Chronicles?

Carol Jean, no one is saying that you are crazy, only that stories like this abound and with the Internet, they abound even more.

I once said about those who claimed to be Alexei - so many claimants - so little time.  I think that applies to the Dauphin as well.

And one other thing, The French helped the Americans in the Revolution.  But their motives were not so altruistic as we once believed.  The French enjoyed baiting the English and by helping the Americans they baited the English in a big way.  So I don't know if the young American Republic would have had any hand in saving the Dauphin.  It was a much older American Republic that did nothing to help Nicholas II and his family in 1918.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on December 11, 2007, 07:33:37 PM
If the disease is inherited, then would not the dauphin have inherited it from some one in the Royal Family? Who? And yes, I know that there is hundreds of stories that have been handed down in families, so I am not just jumping at a straw or some story. Did you know that the Royal Family had talked of and even tried to escape thenselves and flee to America? Also there was rumor that the dauphin had escaped and had gone to America. There is quite a bit that may point to his having escaped, but people seem to only believe what some certain people have said about the dauphin. I don't think that anything I could ever say would change some peoples minds.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Alixz on December 11, 2007, 09:15:18 PM
Marfan syndrome is caused by a defect in the gene that enables your body to produce fibrillin, a protein that helps give connective tissue its elasticity and strength. Ordinarily, you have large amounts of fibrillin in your bones, your aorta and the ligaments in the lenses of your eyes. But if you have Marfan syndrome, you're likely to have too little fibrillin in these structures. This causes them to stretch abnormally when they're subjected to ordinary stress.

Most people with Marfan syndrome inherit the abnormal gene from a parent who has the disorder. Marfan syndrome is an autosomal dominant condition, which means that a defective gene from only one parent is needed to pass the disease on. It also means that each child of an affected parent has a 50-50 chance of inheriting the defective gene.

In about one-fourth of people with Marfan syndrome, a mutation occurs for the first time in the egg or sperm of a parent who doesn't have a genetic abnormality, and the defect is then passed on to the child. Although it's not possible to know for certain, the likelihood is small that the mutation will recur if the same parents have other children
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: KaKu on December 23, 2007, 01:42:53 PM
I follow this discussion and I have got some thoughts.... I´m sorry Carol Jean, but my opinion is that your teory is based more on hopes than facts, BUT you are so hard defender of your teory, which is of course conclusion of your long research. You said something about ... we can just compare DNA mother (Marie Antoinette) and her son, so is possible to compare DNA of your ancestor and Marie? It should be logically possible, what do you all think? And I have also one more appeal, can you send as some pictures from your book, in my country I can only dream about more selection of books than three about Marie Antoinette and one about Louis XVI.... Thank you
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on December 30, 2007, 07:25:15 PM
Hi, Yes, that would really prove my theory, BUT, I have not located where my ancestor is buried. I was hoping to find out something about this DNA that would prove my theory but as yet have not. This year I have plans to do some traveling to see if I can locate my ancestor's naturlization papers or maybe some other document that would have his date of birth, date of immigration and any other information that I can find. If, they have the DNA of King Louis XVI then maybe I can still have some way to prove my theory as I have a brother living that would be a direct decendant of the ancestor that I think is the lost dauphin. I have been told that DNA goes back either male to male to male or female to female to female, so my DNA could not be tested against Marie Antoinette's, but my brothers DNA could be tested against King Louis XVI's.
As to the pictures, I will try to scan some into my computer and then post them to this site if you are really interested in seeing them.
Thanks for your posting. As you said, I have done a lot of research on my ancestor and I am not one to say something unless I have more than just an idea or that I am wishing something is true.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: KaKu on December 31, 2007, 12:30:21 PM
Thank you Carol Jean, you know, it is interesting idea, that in the world there can be Marie Antoinette´s  descendant, and if your teory is true I hope in happy end of your research
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on January 11, 2008, 07:23:37 PM
Hi KaKu, I am going to try to post a link to a few pictures in my book.
(http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/cjgennut)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: trentk80 on May 01, 2008, 11:49:50 AM
Carol Jean, I'm curious about what happened to your book. Any updates? I read in the link you provided that you are signing copies of it.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Norbert on May 01, 2008, 02:46:05 PM
Surely the DNI tests made last year confirm without doubt that the Dauphin died a prisoner  and now lies with his parents in St Denis.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Imperial.Opal on May 02, 2008, 06:56:22 PM
 I watched a documentary on Australian TV last night, a french production - LOUIS XVII: Unsolved Enigma, 1785 - 1795,  quote from the

 newspaper review of it

 If it had been solved, it would'nt be a enigma, would it ? And it goes downhill from here. To resolve this question of his fate, DNA
 testing was conducted on what may have been the heart of Louis XVII or that of a brother who died before him or that of someone
 else entirely. It is a dense trawl through dull terrain, end of quote

 I fell alsleep after 40 minutes watching it, 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Norbert on May 08, 2008, 04:10:31 AM
Like the Romanov's, it makes a good soap opera
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 09, 2008, 01:49:02 AM
One of Carol Jeans strongest peaces of evidence is the fact that he apparently resembles Marie Antoinette as do many of his descendants.  ??? I don't think that's very reliable personally.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Norbert on May 09, 2008, 06:28:56 AM
Before or after the fall of the monarchy I wonder...the poor woman changed dramatically during her imprisonment ...the sketch of her going to her death is unrecognisable to the glorious portraits of her as Queen
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: trentk80 on May 21, 2008, 06:47:56 AM
Before or after the fall of the monarchy I wonder...the poor woman changed dramatically during her imprisonment ...the sketch of her going to her death is unrecognisable to the glorious portraits of her as Queen

I guess Carol Jean resembles Marie Antoinette in her glorious portraits as Queen, not in the sketch of her on the way to the guillotine.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 21, 2008, 11:06:14 AM
Eye of the beholher, I suppose, and people tend to see what they want to see, not neccessarly what is there. I  personally do not think she would bear any likenss at all. Remember, there are no live photographs of MA, only idealiised paintings and the sketch by David.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: trentk80 on May 21, 2008, 11:48:19 AM
I know it, Robert. I was just being sarcastic.  ;)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 21, 2008, 02:09:14 PM
I-O, it might be hard to know if that is just a legend or true.  MA, like most court ladies of the era, powdered her hair white long before imprisionment. Only her hairdresser knew for sure, so to speak.
I gathered that, Terrence, just joining in...
 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 26, 2009, 12:53:29 PM
I have not posted on this for a long time, but wanted others to know that I published a book on my belief that my ancestor was the lost King of France and then found a Genetic Genealogist that would compare DNA testing that was done on my brother (who is a direct male descendant of
the little boy that was a stow-a-way on the boat in 1792-1793). DNA has established that the little boy took someone else's surname when he arrived
in the U.S. and that our surname really was not the name that he and all his male descendants went by. I am still working on the DNA trying now to find a descendant of King Louis XIV to compare DNA.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on April 26, 2009, 08:54:04 PM
I have gone through this thread just now. I  would be very much interested in any concrete documentary proof that Louis Charles  indeed was smuggled out and survived...... surely there must be some if this was true? And how was it made possible and by whom?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 27, 2009, 07:18:39 AM
Hi, I don't think that any one would be able to find any document stating that Louis Charles was smuggled out of the prison. Remember that they wanted to get rid of the Royal Family. But I read in Deborah Cadbury's book that a Mrs. Simon who was the wife of the man who was brutilizing little Louis Charles said that Louis Charles was smuggled out in a laundry basket. I have read in another book that even on her dying bed that she still held to this story. No one seems to have believed her. Since writting my book I found a genetic genealogist and sent him a copy of my book. I had my brothers DNA (who is a direct male descendant) tested and then had the comparison done against our Surname. According to the genetic genealogist we have been going by a Surname that was not our Surname. There was no matches. So now I am working to find a descendant of King Louis XVI
to compare DNA. The genetic geneaologist has told me that as of now my theory is alive and well.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on April 27, 2009, 09:03:40 AM
Welcome back Carol! Please please would you post those photos of your family members where you thought there was a resemblance to Marie Antoinette! It was hilarious!
Thanks in advance :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 27, 2009, 09:54:22 AM
If you think it is hilarious, then why should I post any pictures? If I get done what I want to accomplish by the DNA then I won't have to prove anything more.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Eddie_uk on April 27, 2009, 12:03:25 PM
Sorry I ment no disrespect Carol Jean & was not laughing at your expense, please don't be spoil sport. I did just find it very amusing at the time & I could do with a laugh today! Am flat hunting - very dull!!!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on April 27, 2009, 04:11:23 PM
I am sorry if I took you wrong but I have had a lot of people say negative things about my theory. All I can say is that DNA testing has proved half of my theory and I am working on the other half to prove it also. As for the pictures, they are in my book and if any one really cares to see for themselves then they can order a book and look at what I have put together. Of course if DNA proves my theory then I will add to my book. I have done extensive work tracing my family tree for fifty years of my life and I do not jump to conclusions as I am a person who wants and desires proof.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on April 28, 2009, 03:03:18 AM
Hi, I don't think that any one would be able to find any document stating that Louis Charles was smuggled out of the prison. Remember that they wanted to get rid of the Royal Family. But I read in Deborah Cadbury's book that a Mrs. Simon who was the wife of the man who was brutilizing little Louis Charles said that Louis Charles was smuggled out in a laundry basket. I have read in another book that even on her dying bed that she still held to this story. No one seems to have believed her. Since writting my book I found a genetic genealogist and sent him a copy of my book. I had my brothers DNA (who is a direct male descendant) tested and then had the comparison done against our Surname. According to the genetic genealogist we have been going by a Surname that was not our Surname. There was no matches. So now I am working to find a descendant of King Louis XVI to compare DNA. The genetic geneaologist has told me that as of now my theory is alive and well.

Thank you, Carol Jean!  Is there any website link to your book?  I'm very much interested in Marie Antoinette and her family, hence my interest on your posts.  Good luck on determing that DNA thing. :)
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on June 20, 2009, 06:30:20 PM
Hi, Get the book from your library written by Deborah Cadbury and read in it about Mrs. Simon. She held to her story even on her death bed that little Louis Charles was smuggled out in a laundry basket. Any one who is about to die is not so likely to be telling a lie. Yet, no one believed her. I believe that she was motherly to little Louis Charles and may have even helped him escape.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Philippe Delorme on June 22, 2009, 11:46:32 AM
:(
Poor little Louis XVII - the ill-fated son of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI - was forcibly taken from his mother and sister after his father's execution and given to one of the jailers where he was brainwashed into saying at his mother's trial that she was incestuously involved with him!  I simply cannot imagine her anguish at seeing him and hearing the obscenities he was uttering.  

Then after her execution - he passes into the pages of history -- most people believing he died of abuse and neglect in the Tower - but many people came forward later claiming to be this same boy.
Echoes of GD Anastasia!   :-/

What is everyone's opinion on this?  How do you think he died?  

Janet R.


Yes, Louis XVII died in the Temple tower :
http://louis17.chez.com/


Philippe DELORME
http://phidelorme.free.fr/phid
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 21, 2009, 07:04:01 PM
Does anyone know of a direct male line descendant of King Louis the XIV? I would like to get this descendant to have a DNA test done on himself and post the results on Framily tree DNA or Ancestry.Com DNA. Or if on of the historians have access to King Louis XVI's DNA and could do this I would like to see the DNA of this Royal line made available on one or both of these sites. If by any chance that their DNA would match up with a direct male line from the little boy that came over on a boat as a stow-a-way and told his children that he was of the Royalty of France and that his parents were beheaded at the time of the French Revolution I think that  it would prove  Louis Charles did escape from the prison and did make it to America and does have decendants living there now and several male direct line descendants at that!  I have written a book on my belief and now I am trying to find the proof that I need to prove my theory. I had my brother's DNA tested and have compared it to other's with the surname that the little boy from France took after he arrived in the U.S. and my brothers DNA does not match up with any one with that Surname or any variation of it.
The Genetic Genealogist has told me to pursue the direct male lines of the Kings of France. So now I am tyring to find someone that would be willing to help. It would either prove my theory right or would prove my theory wrong.  Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on September 21, 2009, 06:28:04 PM
But why was he considered as this way? Certainly that he never governed his nation, he died
too young. Why to count him in the dinasty?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on September 25, 2009, 07:31:47 PM
I don't think that you understand what I am trying to prove by having the DNA of a male line descendant of King Louis XIV to compare with the DNA of my brother who is a direct male line descendant of the boy that escaped France at the time of the French Revolution and told that his parents were both beheaded and that he was of the Royalty of France  and that he had came over from France to America hiding for fear of his life.
If I can find a male descendant of King Louis XIV in a direct male line (male to son to son and so on) that would be willing to have his DNA tested and post the results on Ancestry.Com's DNA or Family Tree DNA --- the maybe I will find a DNA match and will then have the proof that I am looking for that will prove that the little boy that came on the boat from France to America was really the son of Marie Antoinette and King Louis XVI.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: King François X on November 29, 2009, 04:35:00 PM
I belive all the descendants of Louis XIV are "royal" and are probably not open to give there DNA. Some of them have official websites i imagine. The "empress of russia" does.( i hate her) ha. And can i have a link to your book Carol Jean? i would love to buy it.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on December 05, 2009, 09:07:05 PM
Hi, I can not give you a link to my book on  this forum---no advertizing but if you will leave me a private message then I will try to contact you and find out where to send you a book.  I do not want to go against the rules of using this forum. Thanks for your interest. 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 18, 2011, 10:51:02 PM
Yes, ilyala, Louis Charles was convinced to swear that both his mother and his aunt, Madame Elisabeth, had molested him. When this ''proof" was brought to trial, Marie Antoinette talked to the jury and said that she called to reason and to the hearts of all those who were parents, but that she wouldn't respond to such aberration... or something similar to that.

I think Marie-Antoinette was right in appealing to the hearts of fellow parents, who most likely realized what an absurd charge that was. Yes, it was in a period not long after the witch hunts, when people could be made to hysterically believe almost anything about a woman, but it was also an age of incredible cruelty and abuse (i.g. whipping and child prostitution) which we in Western societies fortunately are very unfamiliar with today, so it seems absurd that mother-son and aunt-nephew incest should be an issue. Especially considering that this was not just an age when poor families all slept together in one bed, but also an age when babies were nursed for years (often by other women than their own mother) and mothers, who were constantly pregnant or nursing, wouldn't think it odd to soothe an eight-year-old like the Dauphin with the occassional tit treat when he became too jealous of his suckling baby sibling.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 17, 2012, 07:28:06 PM
If there is anyone interested in what I have put together in my book--I would be glad to have others look at the book and contents.
For information contact me at cjgennut@yahoo.com.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: darius on July 19, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
If there is anyone interested in what I have put together in my book--I would be glad to have others look at the book and contents.
For information contact me at cjgennut@yahoo.com.

Having written a book I find it rather peculiar that you haven´t been able to use even an online geneology to trace the line of Louis XIV...
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 21, 2012, 09:17:27 PM
I did write a book and I have traced the genealogy of King Louis XVI---and I have contacted some of the descendants of the Royal Kings of France.  So what are you saying? I have done a lot of research on the Royal Family and their ancestors and descendants. I just have not found anyone who IS a descendant that will do a DNA test.  How would you go about doing that? Have you any idea?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: darius on July 22, 2012, 06:14:34 AM
It´s a bit of a problem if they aren´t willing to collaborate.  Only options as I see it is to somehow procure their hairbrush, or prick them with a pin.  On a serious note, apart from the likenesses you have detected in family pictures, and the account of the goaler´s wife that the Dauphin escaped, what makes you think that the Dauphin was your ancestor, and that your ancestor wasn´t simply one of the millions of immigrants who arrived in the Americas in the 18th and 19th century.  I am afraid to say that your claim is tenuous to say the least based on what you have shared here.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 24, 2012, 08:33:47 AM
You and lots of others have your opinon---we are all intitled to our own beliefs and thoughts. After doing so much research on my ancestor and not finding any connection to any family here in the U.S. and knowing the story handed down from one generation to another about HOW he arrived in the U.S. and then actually tracing him and his whereabouts--trying for years and years to find out his ancestry in the conventionally way I then took his word that he was of the Royalty of France and tried to find out who he really was. DNA proved that the surname he had was NOT his surname at all. So, with all this in mind--I then turned to the Royalty of France and their history, ancestors, stories and pictures.
And I am saying that I worked on his ancestry here in the U.S. for more years than you are old--probably as I started when I was in my teens and I am now in my sixties. So, this is no fly by night ---grabbing at some sort of whim.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 24, 2012, 09:20:35 AM
I've been looking at this thread for the first time today, and one question which has yet to be answered is how the heart which was DNA-tested, and whose provenance seems to be well-attested, could come from a descendant of Maria Theresa other than the young Dauphin. Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I understand it, the test showed the heart to come from a descendant of MT. She had a huge family (15 children), but it seems highly unlikely that a boy substituted for the Dauphin would also be descended from MT, as well as being around the right age and able to pass for him. An illegitimate descendant is a possibility in theory, but unlikely to be conveniently available in practice.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 24, 2012, 06:51:48 PM
From what I have read the test on the heart proved that the heart belonged to someone that had the same ancestry as Marie Antoinette and two of her sisters. I read in a book by Deborah Cadbury that the test did not prove that the heart belonged to a son of Marie Antoinette.
DNA goes back from father to father to father and so on. The only connection that is proven by mtdna testing is from the Mother to the son.
Otherwise if a woman has a test---it goes back to her mother and then her mother and then her mother and so on. So to prove that a son belongs to a woman ---they have a test that can prove that---and to prove that a child belongs to a father they can prove that.  But that is as far as it goes either back on the female side or the male side depending what sex that the child is. If you have access to a computer to look up the books written by Deborah Cadbury--the name of the book has escaped my memory. Oh, and Marie Antoinette had four children--two boys and two girls.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 25, 2012, 02:37:42 AM
OK.

M DNA goes largely unchanged down the female line, and that was what was relied on to identify the Romanov remains in the 1990s. That was what had to be used as the other types of DNA were too degraded to be used.

So we are dealing with someone in the same female line of descent as Marie Antoinette, and therefore Maria Theresia. My knowledge of the 18th century Habsburg dynasty is rusty now, but what I do remember distinctly from studying the period at university is that the Habsburgs suffered a biological crisis in the early 18th century, and there were very few of them at the time she succeeded in 1740. She and her husband solved the problem by having a huge family, but it seems to me unlikely that a boy substituted for the Dauphin would, most conveniently, have the right ancestry through the female line. There may have been illegitimate sons of Marie Antoinette's brothers around, for example (I don't know) but genetically that would not work, as they would inherit their M DNA from their non-Habsburg mothers.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on July 25, 2012, 07:01:08 AM
The heart in the Basilica taken by Pelletan has a totally undisputed history from 1830 onwards although there is still documentary evidence for it being in Pelletan's possession before that. The 1998 DNA tests proved that it was the heart of a male child between 7-10 years of age and that this child was unequivocally the son or possibly the grandson of one of Empress Maria Theresa of Austria's daughters.

Of these, only four of those that made it to adulthood had issue. Maria Christina of Teschen, who had a daughter that died in infancy (a day after birth), Maria Amalia of Parma who had 9 children only 3 of which were boys, her eldest lived to adulthood, and the younger two died at a few days and 3 years respectively. Maria Carolina of Sicily had two sons who survived into adulthood and of the male grandchildren through Maria Amalia and Maria Carolina's daughters there are no princes whose hearts would accurately match or have been available to Pelletan.

That leaves Marie Antoinette who had two sons, Louis Joseph and Louis Charles. Given that the heart was known to be in the hands of Pellatan who is proven to have also examined a deceased male child in the Temple in 1795, and the complete lack of male candidates available from Marie Antoinette's sisters, ( the two aunts DNA that was tested, Maria Johanna and Maria Josepha died without issue) then the heart HAS to belong to either of Marie Antoinette's sons with all the supporting evidence pointing to Louis Charles.

Louis Joseph died aged 7 and was buried in the Royal tombs at St Denis. These were destroyed during the revolution in 1793 and the bodies removed and despoiled. However, the burial custom for the princes/Kings of France was for the heart to be removed at death and then embalmed ( this is what prompted Pelletan to remove the heart in the first place) The heart of Louis Joseph was removed and embalmed ( records prove this) not stored in alchohol as was the heart kept by Pelletan.

Therefore the heart tested in 1998 can only be that of Louis XVII, there are no other viable candidates that the heart could belong to.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 25, 2012, 07:24:55 AM
Vanya

Thank you, but just to complete the circle, who was Pelletan and how did he have access to the heart?

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on July 25, 2012, 09:21:58 AM
Jean Phillippe Pelletan was a Parisian surgeon who upon the French Revolution in 1789 was appointed chief surgeon to the new 'Guarde Nationale'. In 1795 he was working as head surgeon at the Hotel-Dieu, the oldest and most central hospital in Paris on the Ile de Cite (its still there). It was therefore the nearest hospital to the Temple prison where the surviving children of Louis XVI were being held. He attended to Louis XVII's medical needs at the Temple on several occasions before the child's death of Tuberculosis  on 8th June 1795 ( the same disease that killed his elder brother Louis Joseph).

On the 9th June 1795 he was called there to perform an autopsy on the body of the ten year old Louis XVII. Despite his elevation by the revolution, he still had monarchist sympathies and so observed the French Royal burial custom of removing the heart. He did this in secret and preserved the child's heart in alcohol. Pelletan then made several documented attempts to give the heart to the child's remaining relatives, including Louis XVIII but these came to nothing. In Pelletan's later career he also acted as consultant-surgeon to Napoleon Bonaparte.

The heart Pelletan removed from the child in the Temple was later stolen by one of his medical students but returned to his widow ( Pelletan's) it then possibly left France for a time and was held by Spanish relatives of the Bourbon family who then gave it to the Archbishop of Paris who had it stored at St Denis where it remained from 1830 onwards.

In 1998-2000, the historian Philippe Delorme arranged for the heart to be tested by a Belgian DNA specialist Prof. Cassiman of the University of Louvain who confirmed via the analysis given in my last post that it was indeed the heart of Louis XVII. On the 8th June 2004 ( 209 yrs to day that Louis XVII died) the heart was buried in a funeral service attended by representatives of many of europes royal families at the royal basilica at St Denis and was then interred next to the remains of the child's parents, Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette.

 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 25, 2012, 11:13:56 AM
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on July 25, 2012, 02:53:40 PM
You're most welcome Ann, the best books or sources for more info on this are Antonia Fraser's 'Marie Antionette', Susan Nagel's 'Marie Therese' and Deborah Cadbury's 'The lost King of France' all are very good and the Deborah Cadbury book is particularly moving and quite hard going, describing the terrible, mental and physical cruelty visited upon the unfortunate boy, ( it had me in tears) it also gives a very balanced look at the recent science and process of elimination used to determine if the preserved heart was indeed that of Louis XVII.

Philippe Delorme's website is also very interesting, its in french, but 'google translate' seems to work fine. All the survivor stories were a real source of anguish and pain for the one irrefutable survivor, Marie Therese, Madame Royale. Her uncles and cousins found them a political nuisance but for her it was all very personal and heartbreaking. There were even stories that circulated around her in her lifetime that she was actually a double whilst the 'real' Marie Therese lived in secret in a German castle as the veiled 'Dark Countess'.

The truth unfortunately was not as colourful, the brutal facts are that the fate of both the children in the Temple prison was actually very straightforward and much, much more tragic than any of the fiction that grew up around them.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 26, 2012, 02:49:54 AM
Thank you. I will look out for the Cadbury book in particular.

Incidentally, if anyone is a fan of C.S. Forester's 'Hornblower' books, Marie-Therese and the Duke of Angouleme make a brief appearance in 'Lord Hornblower', set in 1814-15.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on July 26, 2012, 09:04:35 AM
I made a mistake on checking about the whereabouts of the heart from 1830 onwards- The Archbishop of Paris had it until 1830, it was then passed between various members of the Spanish Bourbons and didn't return to France until 1975! so sorry that part was not accurate.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 27, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
If you can, get the book that Deborah Cadbury wrote---The Lost King of France. In it it tells of a Mrs. Simon who cared for Louis Charles in prison. On her death bed she is still swearing to the fact that the Dauphin escaped from the prison in a laundry basket and she went to her death saying that he was alive. Louis Charles's sister would not meet with many of the men who claimed that they were the lost dauphin.
Why not? If she was in agony over not knowing the truth about her brother---why wouldn't she want to see these men herself--so she would know.  But if she also knew like Mrs. Simon that he had escaped---then she would not HAVE to meet with any of these men to satisfy her knowledge of what happened to her brother.  She was also not allowed to see her dead brother in the prison. Why not?  If he was truly her brother--she would have known---but if he was not her brother, she would have known that another boy was substituted for him and that her brother had escaped!  I believe that the boy that died in the prison was not Louis Charles. I believe that all of this was done to cover up the truth. The boy that died in the prison had his TWELVE YEAR OLD MOLARS. How old was Louis Charles?  Ten years old?  Does all this make sense? They also stated that the boy had long legs and arms for a child only ten years old. Since there is these descrepencies and these things that do not add up---why is it that everyone will believe and take it for the truth?  Oh and yes, the mtdna test that they took should PROVE that he was the son of Marie Antoinette--not one of her sisters or any other things but that he was the son of Marie Antoinette---and that is not what was said at all. It was said that the mtdna proved that he was a relative of Marie Antoinette on her maternal side. It should have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the child was the SON of Marie Antoinette!
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 02, 2012, 07:37:35 PM
I did not add this but when a DNA test is done on a baby to prove who his father is---it will tell absolutely if the child belongs to whoever the mother claims is the father  or not--so the some is true of a mtdna  test to prove who the mother of the child really is as well.  These tests on a child will tell who their mother and father truely is. It is positive proof.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on August 03, 2012, 01:24:49 AM
I have now got a copy of the Cadbury book and will respond when I've read it. On a quick skim of the later chapters, it looks as though the DNA work was done very thoroughly and carefully, and there is precious little room for doubt.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 03, 2012, 07:38:58 PM
Just remember that test on a child will be positive test of his mother and his father.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: DNAgenie on August 04, 2012, 01:07:35 AM
Quote
I did not add this but when a DNA test is done on a baby to prove who his father is---it will tell absolutely if the child belongs to whoever the mother claims is the father  or not--so the some is true of a mtdna  test to prove who the mother of the child really is as well.  These tests on a child will tell who their mother and father truely is. It is positive proof.

This statement is not strictly accurate, as there are at least three different types of DNA tests that are used in different circumstances to confirm the possibility of paternity or maternity. Each type of test is only of value if there is a suitable test with which it can be compared.  A single DNA test of any type is meaningless on its own.  So, if the test is intended to confirm paternity with a specific father, for example, you need DNA samples of reasonable quality from both the father and the child.

The different types of DNA test that might be used to confirm relationships include:
(1) Y-DNA, which is inherited in the direct male line. It cannot distinguish between a father, grandfather, brother, uncle, or male cousin, but if there is no match, the relationship between suspected family members is disproved. Matches which are close, but not exact, leave the whole question open to doubt.

(2) mtDNA, which is inherited in the direct female line, though males as well as females inherit it from their mothers. It cannot distinguish between mother, grandmother, sister, aunt, or female cousin, but if there is no match the relationship between suspected family members is disproved. Again, close matches are suggestive, but not proof.

(3) A paternity test, using autosomal DNA values at standard sites on about 13 different chromosomes (CODIS values).  These are internationally standardised and are frequently used in forensic tests, paternity or maternity tests, and tests of siblings.  Although exact matches are usually diagnostic of relationships, near matches are much less certain, as people from similar geographic backgrounds can have similar DNA values, so results can often be inconclusive.

Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on August 04, 2012, 07:27:13 PM
When they tested the heart that was supposed to be the heart of Louis Charles against hair that they had of Marie Antoinette---they had the DNA from both the mother and the child---so why did they say that the DNA from the heart matched with Marie Antoinette's sisters--and that they did not say that the DNA matched with Marie Antoinette's?  Wouldn't Marie Antoinette have the same mtdna that her sisters had? This would not prove which one of these sisters had this child. It could have been any of her sisters or her female cousin's from her mothers sisters.
Why wouldn't it positively prove who the mother was?  If it would NOT prove who the mother was, why was the test taken?
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: DNAgenie on August 04, 2012, 07:39:48 PM
Quote
When they tested the heart that was supposed to be the heart of Louis Charles against hair that they had of Marie Antoinette---they had the DNA from both the mother and the child---so why did they say that the DNA from the heart matched with Marie Antoinette's sisters--and that they did not say that the DNA matched with Marie Antoinette's?  Wouldn't Marie Antoinette have the same mtdna that her sisters had? This would not prove which one of these sisters had this child. It could have been any of her sisters or her female cousin's from her mothers sisters.
Why wouldn't it positively prove who the mother was?  If it would NOT prove who the mother was, why was the test taken?
 
Who are "they", ie the people who did the test?  Do you have a link or a reference to these results? The answer will usually be found in the fine print.

It sounds to me as though at least two different sorts of DNA tests were done on these samples (mtDNA and CODIS tests), and the results would depend on many factors, including the quality of the DNA, and what matched or didn't match between samples in each test.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: CountessKate on August 05, 2012, 03:14:50 AM
When they tested the heart that was supposed to be the heart of Louis Charles against hair that they had of Marie Antoinette---they had the DNA from both the mother and the child---so why did they say that the DNA from the heart matched with Marie Antoinette's sisters--and that they did not say that the DNA matched with Marie Antoinette's?  Wouldn't Marie Antoinette have the same mtdna that her sisters had? This would not prove which one of these sisters had this child. It could have been any of her sisters or her female cousin's from her mothers sisters.
Why wouldn't it positively prove who the mother was?  If it would NOT prove who the mother was, why was the test taken?

Since you reference Deborah Cadbury's book, I am surprised you do not seem to have taken in that she clearly stated there was insufficient viable DNA from Marie Antoinette's hair to make an effective comparison with the Pelletan heart.  This was why the comparison was made with hair from Marie Antoinette's sister Johanna Gabriella (the hair was from two different sources and thus in differing conditions). 
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on August 05, 2012, 05:36:33 AM
'When they tested the heart that was supposed to be the heart of Louis Charles against hair that they had of Marie Antoinette---they had the DNA from both the mother and the child---so why did they say that the DNA from the heart matched with Marie Antoinette's sisters--and that they did not say that the DNA matched with Marie Antoinette's?'

I've yet to read the book, but this sounds like the cautious approach of serious scientists. They very rarely express things in definite terms, but talk in terms of probability. Equally, forensic pathologists do not say that a wound was definitely made by a bayonet, but that it was made by a blade of particular shape and dimensions, and not inconsistent with its being made by a bayonet.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on May 23, 2013, 04:31:50 PM
I have wondered why they did not use King Louis XVI's hair for testing on the heart. This would have proven that he was the son of the King and would have put to rest the accusations that Queen Marie Antoinette had an affair. Maybe I am wrong but I would have thought that they would have had his hair. Of course after all those years it would be something to prove any way.  DNA from the a descendant of the Kings of France---male line only would prove it though even today if the DNA from the heart is still available. Also DNA from a descendant of the Kings of France would prove if a male living now is a descendant of the Lost King of France.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Kalafrana on May 24, 2013, 09:41:48 AM
I think they were relying on mDNA (that is the kind which survives in old samples), which passes unchanged down the female line. The Dauphin would therefore have inherited his mDNA from his mother, not his father, and the testing would show his descent from Maria Theresa through Marie Antoinette, and then back from Maria Theresa to her female-line ancestors.

The same technique was recently used in Britain on Richard III's skeleton. Researchers had managed to find a man who descended from one of Richard's sisters exclusively through the female line. His mDNA matched the skeleton's. Of course, the absence of a match would not have proved conclusively that it wasn't Richard, because there could be a break in the other person's descent.

Ann
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on July 12, 2013, 06:07:37 PM
It was explained to me the the mother's mtdna only passed down to her son---on the male line but went from her to her daughter and then to her daughter's daughter and so on down the female line.  A male's DNA passes down from son to son--down the male line---and again only to his own daughter.  Are you saying this is not correct---that I was informed about this---and it is not right?  I wish to know the actual truth of how and to whom DNA and mtdna is passed down from generation to generation.  Thanks for explaining this to me.
Title: Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
Post by: Carol Jean on October 10, 2019, 09:42:57 AM
Hi, I am back. I hope to be able to post some pictures from my book on this forum but not sure how to do it.  Carol Jean