Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Imperial Claimants Post Here => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: on December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM
Title: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 21, 2004, 08:06:49 PM
While I would be the last to begrudge my brother and sister Forum Members a good time, I'm afraid this discussion area has become a play pen only. I would ask to reserve at least this one topic area for serious claimants only - and would ask that any joke or ridicule posts or comments posted here be moved to another area.

Some of us are legitimately interested in a discussion of claimants as an area of study, and I am one of those, having checked out a few of these stories myself.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Donny on June 21, 2004, 10:27:27 PM
The 'other' claimants thread has been viewed over four thousand six hundred times.

They must be saying something that people enjoy.

Yes, I agree, let's have the few people that are interested post on this new thread called 'For Serious Claimants, Please.

I would't expect too many posts, though.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 21, 2004, 10:39:26 PM
Actually, as a sideline to the whole Romanov story, I have studied a few...those that I could find material on.  Most are just a mention-footnote in books about other subjects though.
I have several books on Alexeis & Anastastias, but have not found anything on the other claimants.
Also, I have a very almost hysterical book by someone who claimned to be Rasputin !! Now THAT was really pushing creditability !!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on June 22, 2004, 07:09:38 PM
Lisa,

I believe you're not that happy with as I may say "The witty Imperial Claimants". As Donny said maybe people enjoy reading (or not). But for the ones who post I think it's real fun (some have great imagination). Speaking for myself I'm also very interested in the other topics on this board.

But of course if there's a need of a serious thread this would be the right place.

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on June 23, 2004, 12:05:15 PM
Perhaps the subject should read For Serious Conversation about the Claimants, Please.

Rodger sent me here to talk about Claimants.  This is what I wrote on another board on 19 June 04:

 Massie mentioned some of the imposters in The Romanovs, The Final Chapter in Part II.
1.  Nadezhda Ivanova Vasilyeva died  in 1971 in a asylum in Riga
2.  Two women, real names uknown, however, know as Marie and Anastasia who died in the Urals in 1964
3. Filipp G.  Semyonov who was said to have hemophilia and claimed to have been Alexis
4. Marga Boodts who lived in Italy and claimed to be Olga
5. Larisa Feodorovna Tudor died 1927 and buried in Kent, England who claimed she was Tatiana.
6.  A man who  lived in Madrid as Prince Alexis d'Anjou whom some said was Alex Brimeyer.... died in Spain
7. Man, name unknown, claimed to be Alexis and lived in Ulm, Germany
8. Alexi Tammet-Romanov died in 1977 in Vancover, British Columbia
9.  Prince Alexis Romanov who died in 1986 and had lived in Scottsdale, Arizonia
10.  Another Alexis was said to have been assassinated in Chicago by the KGB...
11 & 12.   Two people who claimed to be Alexis and Anastasia met in USA and gained some attention by the press... names unknown
13.  Goleniewski died in 1993..
14. Eugenia Smith lived in Illinois then R.I. and Massie said was still living in 1995
15.  others ???
16. Anna Anderson (Manahan), who always had the most attention, died 1984, and whom many believe was a Polish peasant

Anyone have any other names?

AGRBear

P.S. 23 June 04: I will add to this.  Since several of you have studied some of the claimants, perhaps this thread could talk about what we have learned about claimants, excluding Anna Anderson, since she has her own discussion thread.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 23, 2004, 11:53:45 PM
Gee, AGR Bear, why did Rodger "send" you here? Are you Rodger?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on June 24, 2004, 06:13:41 PM
So pleased this thread has opened up. However, I do enjoy all the other topics of discussion.  Underlying they are somewhat interesting and informative. I do hope that we can be open minded and respectful in our views.

I believe that some members of Tsar Nicholas's family escaped.  

I would like to use this forum to analyse and share what information people  have to draw up possible clues as to what could have happened during 1917-18. Other than what has actually been written.  Possibly take a different view. What escape plan could have been planned and by whom.


I believe from information I have that two of the Tsars children did escape.  There is documented evidence that two Grand Dutchesses were picked up at Black Sea ports, on royal orders by a British naval ship HMS Lord Nelson in 1918 and dropped somewhere in Oran in French North Africa.  

Can anyone shed more light?



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on June 24, 2004, 08:34:48 PM
Please. share your "information" about who was picked up and when and where.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Donny on June 24, 2004, 10:22:03 PM
Yes,  please fill us in on this new information about the Tsars children that  escaped from the cellar.   This could change the whole course of Russian history and leave a lot of writers with egg on their face.  Don't waste a minute more.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on June 25, 2004, 11:09:29 AM
Candice,
You mentioned before about the two GD that were picked up on Yalta or somewhere in the Black sea Coast, but I thought you were talking about Xenia Alexandrova and Olga Alexandrova. Yet you never really mentioned who you were talking about.  Can we know why??

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on June 25, 2004, 02:15:15 PM
I am not Rodger.  

He had mentioned that there was a thread on claimants and I assumed he meant this thread.

Am I still in the wrong place?

AGRBear

PS
There were many agents moving around Russia, especially the House of Special Purpose.  Surly someone was working on a rescue?  What about someone in  the White Army who was about to enter Ekaterinburg?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on June 25, 2004, 05:50:38 PM
This information came from an article I saw and in the Telegraph newspaper on September 25, 1996.  I still have the cutting. The small article did not specify which imperial grand duchesses were dropped off at Oran in French North Africa. The article was written by Charles Arnold-Baker.

My belief is consistant with other people that believe that two of the girls did escape.  If this article is a thread one cannot dismiss it.  If this is correct, it would also be feasible that they would've settled somewhere in the south of Europe.

Comments and discussions are not meant to throw egg in anyone's face nor to challenge any one person. This is purely to share opinions and information and possibly stumble into a true credible mystery.

We know that there was a rescue attempt.  What if it had been half successful?  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on June 28, 2004, 09:36:08 AM
Candice,
I agree with you, We are here to  comment and discuss our point of view, but also based on facts and information we have gathered somewhere else, and also bring new light and knowledge about events we did not have enough information, such as why Sophie was set free and allowed to leave, now we know, and learning the truth about events like that, are what make this discussion forum worthwhile...

Best Regards,
Title: Discussion of Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 28, 2004, 01:31:07 PM
I agree that a "ground rule" of such discussions needs to be respect for those posting. Also, it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind. For my part, I am most interested in stories with two bodies rescued, Alexis and one of his sisters. Based on available information, scenarios with this information seem most viable.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on June 28, 2004, 02:16:42 PM
I do apologize for repeating what I said earlier but I can only show you the article that appeared in the The Mail newspaper in 1996. I do apologize for missleading you to believe it was the Telegraph newspaper.  :( I read both. In fact it was The Mail newspaper that the article appeared in. The article written by Charles Arnold-Baker, states that two imperial grand dutchesses were picked up at Black Sea ports and dropped off at Oran, French North Africa. By HMS Lord Nelson, in 1918.  

If you want me to post it let me know how I can do that. Alternatively you can find it in the 25th September, 1996 issue of The Mail newspaper published in the UK.

This would mean that the Grand Dutchesses could have taken refuge in southern Europe/Africa where no one would suspect who they were rather than East Europe where they were known and were being hunted down and threatened with extinction. This seems more credible to  me and exciting.

The investigation would certainly have to take another route.  I wonder how many potential pretenders would surface now?

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please[quote author=Can
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2004, 02:44:43 PM
Quote
This information came from an article I saw and in the Telegraph newspaper on September 25, 1996.  I still have the cutting. The small article did not specify which imperial grand duchesses were dropped off at Oran in French North Africa. The article was written by Charles Arnold-Baker.

My belief is consistant with other people that believe that two of the girls did escape.  If this article is a thread one cannot dismiss it.  If this is correct, it would also be feasible that they would've settled somewhere in the south of Europe.

Comments and discussions are not meant to throw egg in anyone's face nor to challenge any one person. This is purely to share opinions and information and possibly stumble into a true credible mystery.

We know that there was a rescue attempt.  What if it had been half successful?  


I think an open mind is needed until all the facts are in.  The only problem is what are the facts and what are the "red herrings"?

If there is a report that two of the girls were rescued and taken to N. Africa, then what can that mean?  It means one of the two girls may have been the girl missing from the Koptyaki grave.  And if it  is true, then one of the two girls must have been recaputred by the Soviets, returned to Ekaterinburg area, killed [for the second time, so to speak] and buried with the others....  I say this because it is said that only one girl is missing from the Koptyaki grave.  

What if one was a girl and the other, Alexis, who was young enough to have pretended he was a girl?  The girls could have cut their hair and braided their hair into his.  Did he and any of his sisters have the same color hair?

If it was two girls to N. Africe and Alexis was taken somewere else that that time and the three were not in the Koptyaki grave after the 19th of July 1918, was there anyone in the grave at this time?

Science is good but, I assume,  it hasn't been discovered how to pin point the exact date the bodies were buried in the Koptyaki grave.

According to the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  alot of bones are missing from the Koptyaki grave.  Perhaps this is because bodies were moved around... We already are told that they were moved at least once from the Four Brothers Mine to the Koptyaki grave.  Were there other graves?  Or were the bodies which were missing added later?  Perhaps after the Red Army defeated the Whites..... 1919....

The  best liers are the ones who stick closer to the truth.


AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Donny on June 28, 2004, 03:31:04 PM
The idea that  some or any of the imperial children survived and did NOT contact their grandmother, the Dowager Empress or their auntie Olga, the Tsars' sister is simply beyond belief.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on June 28, 2004, 03:33:28 PM
AGRBear,

I was under the impression that all the children (or at least the daughters) had had their heads recently shaved after recovering from the measles- so it may have been rather difficult for them to have braided their hair into a wig for Alexie...although the idea is a weirdly charming one!  :)

Its an unusual notion....

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on June 28, 2004, 05:53:18 PM
Donny, I have read that the Dowager Empress never believed that her family were all murdered.  I'm almost positive she knew exactly where they were!  I'm sure that only a handful of people knew the truth.  Possibly someone still knows the truth?   If anyone is still alive.

AGRBear, I don't think the Soviets were ever to be trusted in what they claimed happened or found.  As you say the Koptyaki grave had been disturbed many times.  Also the recent DNA on  Grand Dutchess Ella's finger is questionable.  

In one of the books I've read it mentioned that the Imperial family only communited through postcards, while they were in captivity. I don't know whether anyone remembers reading that.

Could Alexei have been swapped for the kitchen boy?  Before that dreadful night of the murder, the kitchen boy that Alexei used to play with was sent away ages before the rest of the staff were taken away.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 29, 2004, 12:06:20 AM
Donny, I have read that the Dowager Empress never believed that her family were all murdered.  I'm almost positive she knew exactly where they were!  I'm sure that only a handful of people knew the truth.  Possibly someone still knows the truth?   If anyone is still alive.

I have spoken with enough members of the family to be convinced that everyone close to the IF believed them to be dead. It was difficult for MF to accept her sons were dead

AGRBear, I don't think the Soviets were ever to be trusted in what they claimed happened or found.  As you say the Koptyaki grave had been disturbed many times.  Also the recent DNA on  Grand Dutchess Ella's finger is questionable.  

Oh boy. I like King and Wilson's approach to the question of what to believe from the Bolsheviks. One must consider their statements, especially if the information can be coroborrated. I think it most likely that the finger which was supposed to be Grand Duchess Ella's was not hers. We still have too many samples of the Victorian mtDNA from live sources to discount them versus this dubious test result.

In one of the books I've read it mentioned that the Imperial family only communited through postcards, while they were in captivity. I don't know whether anyone remembers reading that.

Could Alexei have been swapped for the kitchen boy?  Before that dreadful night of the murder, the kitchen boy that Alexei used to play with was sent away ages before the rest of the staff were taken away.  

Leshka Sednev died in 1928, so a swap is doubtful.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 29, 2004, 12:27:12 AM
The problem Lisa, is that the tested Victorian lineage doesn't match the Gill results.  This isn't too surprising because there is published variance at position 16111 between T and C in several female line QV descendants, with no heteroplasmy.  This variance is published in Purple Secret: Genes, Madness and the Royal House of Windsor, London, 1998.

So which 'Victorian lineage' are you referring to?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Donny on June 29, 2004, 01:10:45 AM
I have to ask, which  of these two threads is the most goofy?  Claimants or 'Serious Claimants?

I get a great laugh from reading both of them.

Lisa, your  twists of logic  and reason are  stranger than Tsar Valmont,  Tsar Doug and MMR4th put together!.

Rodger, we are still concerned about position 16111.

I know, how about a thread titled:  Very, Very Serious Claimants, We're Not Kidding!!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on June 29, 2004, 08:11:52 AM
Donny, may I say that truth is stranger than fiction!

I'm not surprised that you find both threads very funny or difficult to comprehend.  How many claimants!!!! ::) DNA is still questionable.  We thought that science at last could solve the puzzle but that was contrived and confused by the soviets themselves.

I read somewhere that there is the Anderson DNA sequence and Dr. Gill's. Both using different methods in determing the DNA sequence.

Roger, as you can see this is above my head. Can you please explain.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on June 29, 2004, 09:37:43 AM
LisaD,

I don't think that Alexie was able to walk at this time, so that the notion of his being "switched" with the kitchen boy seems a little strange... Also people would have been able to see the differance between the two boys!  

Sigh... sometimes the questions raised in this discussion are wonderful -  and sometimes they just seem  very weird...

PS- What exactly is "wrong" with the DNA?

(please use simple words- I am no expert!)  ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on June 29, 2004, 10:01:38 AM
Ok
on the "switching Alexei" notion...WHY would the Bolsheviks not be keeping a very close eye on the TSAREVITCH? If any single person could have given the White Army a figure to fight for after Nicholas, it would have been Alexei...You can be very very very certain that Yurovsky would have made dead sure Alexei was in the basement.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Vera_Figner on June 29, 2004, 01:16:56 PM
Yes "Rodger" do explain! Didn't you post earlier that you have a background in DNA science?  What field did you say your graduate work is in?

I have looked for the post where you talk about that, but it has been deleted. Fortunately, I saved a number of posts on this subject (yours and others) because it was all so fascinating!

So don't be shy! Tell us about your work.  Will your dissertation deal with the Romanov case? Did you use it for your master's thesis as well?  

What about articles you have written that you can refer us to.  This field is so exciting and ever-changing, and there are so many here who would like to learn more.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2004, 01:21:51 PM
There are two of Nicholas II's children missing from the Koptyaki grave, Pig's Meadow and the Four Brothers Mine.

All might not have died on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Maybe someone, one of the guards,  wasn't watching that night or maybe the night of the 15th and some or all escaped.  This would have left Yurovsky in a mess....  There were people who recalled trains being searched for members of the Royal Family....  Or do we forget about those statements and call them "white herrings".

And, no matter how hard they  [CHEKA then the GPU then the KGB and all the communists] tried,  they never found the two who were missing, or, if they did, they could no longer bury their mature bones with the others....

AGRBear  

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2004, 01:31:52 PM
Quote
AGRBear,

I was under the impression that all the children (or at least the daughters) had had their heads recently shaved after recovering from the measles- so it may have been rather difficult for them to have braided their hair into a wig for Alexie...although the idea is a weirdly charming one!  :)

Its an unusual notion....



I do recall something about the measles and one of the books went into some detail about the measles for a particular reason.  Anyone out there who can remember the point in time they had the measles, if not the measles, then what and when it was which made them shave their heads?

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Lanie on June 29, 2004, 01:57:59 PM
The children had the measles following a little party given for various youngsters Alexei's age in February 1917 I believe; one of them had the measles, I guess, and they ended up all coming down with it.  The medicine made their hair fall out (I think) so their heads were shaved.  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Janet_W. on June 29, 2004, 02:07:33 PM
It was the measles, and I think this portion of the discussion deserves its own section, so I will begin one in the section specifically about the family.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2004, 02:55:33 PM
So, they did have their hair in July 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on June 29, 2004, 02:58:53 PM
yes, they did, but remember that human hair doesnt grow all that fast, so they did not have LONG braidable hair only just one year later.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on June 30, 2004, 02:13:46 PM

This is all especulation. There is not a fact to support this theory, is it?

On the other hand, I honestly would like to read Rodger's point of view on the MtDna Analisys.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Antiquarian2001 on June 30, 2004, 04:21:54 PM
I am not sure where this post belongs but since it concerns escapees I am posting it here pending a check by the administrator.
With the Great War on it could not have been possible to escape thru Germany. I have a friend whose grandparents escaped thru Persia. Apparently there was a flourishing trade between Persia and Russia in those days. It was a long way to go from Petrograd. Does anyone have more information about  survivors who used this route.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on June 30, 2004, 04:24:18 PM
Please go to the Russian Revolution section, and start a new topic there about this question. I am sure you will get some interesting answers there.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 01, 2004, 02:45:27 PM
So, all photographs taken after they had the measles  meant they either had no hair [the shaved heads photo] to short hair [bobed] to July  1918?

Can anyone direct me to photographs taken only  in Ekaterinburg of the family.  Either on the web or in books.

Thanks

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 01, 2004, 04:45:03 PM
I haven't seen any photos of the girls in Ekaterinburg without their hats off. Their hair could have been short. Photos show a full fringe.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 01, 2004, 06:00:26 PM
FA, didn't Nicholas abdicate in favour of his brother Michael? Therefore Alexei wouldn't necessarily be a threat, especially being so weak and ill.  

It seems to me that Yurovsky, being a bit of a dark horse, could have played a part in the escape.  Just another angle to look at.




Quote
Ok
on the "switching Alexei" notion...WHY would the Bolsheviks not be keeping a very close eye on the TSAREVITCH? If any single person could have given the White Army a figure to fight for after Nicholas, it would have been Alexei...You can be very very very certain that Yurovsky would have made dead sure Alexei was in the basement.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: kensue on July 01, 2004, 06:42:09 PM
In Peter Kurth's book "The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra", he stated that the girls wore wigs while their hair was growing out.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 01, 2004, 06:51:25 PM
Yes Candice, Nicholas abdicated in favor of his brother Michael, still, regardless of the abdication (refused by Michael), the  figure of Alexei being alive, would have given the White Army a stronger reason to fight back. So, it seems to me like nonsense to  make a great effort to save him, just to keep him hidden the rest of his  life.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremy galeaz on July 02, 2004, 06:44:19 PM
For Robert Hall

Mr. Hall,

You wouldn't happen to have the names (and names of the authors )of those books you mentioned on "Anastasias and Alexis" handy would you?
I've tracked down a few books, but it would but it might be a great help if there are a few I'm missing.

thanks
J. Galeaz
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 02, 2004, 07:04:16 PM
I don't think the intention was to hide Alexei for the rest of his life. I'm sure the plan was to return the Monarchy.  As time passed things didn't turn out the way they planned, so Alexei had no chose but to stay and lived where they hid him. This is just speculation on my part. :)

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 03, 2004, 10:30:58 AM
Candice,

     While your notion of revolutionaries secretly wanting to reestablish the Monarchy is charming...it does'nt really make any sense to me. One of the goals of the Revolution was to free Russia of Autocracy - that is the Tsar!
    Although many people have stated that some of the IF 's "keepers"  may have become more sympathetic with them after getting to know them, I am doubtful that any of them started hatching plots to secret away the extreamly ill Tsarevich and keep him in seclusion until the time was right for him to be revealed...
    Its a charming idea - something out of Victor Hugo - but not logical... at least not to me.  ;)

Still I may be wrong!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: _Rodger_ on July 03, 2004, 12:13:52 PM
It's not quite clear that 'free' is the appropriate term given that by any measure or stretch of the imagination, the Soviet Union was the worst generally recognized government in the history of the modern world.    ::)

I used the phrase 'generally recognized' because the USSR was recognized by Western governments as legitimate.  I don't believe the US recognized Hitler's Reich as a legitimate government, but I could be wrong on that.  If it had, it certainly broke diplomatic relations quickly.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 03, 2004, 02:09:55 PM
Rodger,

Sorry- I just dont understand your last post...
Is this about "survivor/claiments" or the respectability of revolutionary governments?

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 04, 2004, 04:54:37 AM
The Monarchy has always been  in most countries the only stable form of rule even with the ruthless of rulers. The Monarchy has always been for the people and country. The majority of the Russian people were happy with having a Royal Family. 

With persistance the small minority revolutionary groups were able to confuse and distort truth and manipulate power by sheer chaos and confusion which created a revolution that became the darkrsk period of Russia. Freedom was no more!

The Russian people were led to believe that they could decide the direction of their own fate but the minority revolutionaries only wanted power. The power to control!  Once the undemocratic politician is elected all interest is in the power to rule.

The Whites were always hoping for the Monarchy to be reinstated. There were many that loved The Family and would do anything to help.  :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 04, 2004, 03:42:40 PM
Candice...

    Your perspective on the virtues of Monarchy are certainly heartfelt.... but I must cordially disagree with you.
    I do not believe that most Russians "deeply loved" their Tsar - and they probably didn't all foster a "deep hatred" either  - I don't think most of them actually really spent a great deal of time thinking about him everyday.  Nicholas was an extreamly private man, rarely going to public events when he could help it. He wasn't constantly in the public eye. In fact this could have contributed to his unpopularity -  a lot of people wanted a spectacle - a  "Star" so to speak- and N & A were not going to give them the show that they desired.  
    About the Whites...
    Actually the "White Movement" during the Civil war was a conglomeration of various groups and many of them were NOT pro monarchy...In fact the only thing that they all had in common was the fact that they didn't recognize the Bolshevic claim to power. This may have been one of the many reasons that they failed.

    I like the sentiment behind your views - but I cannot agree with you.
R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 04, 2004, 03:54:32 PM
Quote
The Monarchy has always been  in most countries the only stable form of rule even with the ruthless of rulers. The Monarchy has always been for the people and country. The majority of the Russian people were happy with having a Royal Family. 

With persistance the small minority revolutionary groups were able to confuse and distort truth and manipulate power by sheer chaos and confusion which created a revolution that became the darkrsk period of Russia. Freedom was no more!

The Russian people were led to believe that they could decide the direction of their own fate but the minority revolutionaries only wanted power. The power to control!  Once the undemocratic politician is elected all interest is in the power to rule.

The Whites were always hoping for the Monarchy to be reinstated. There were many that loved The Family and would do anything to help.  :)

///////////
Candice,
What is your background in Russian history?  I don't mean Imperial Russian history, but the history of the Russian people.  
You stated that after the Revolution of 1917 "Freedom was no more."  If you had even an introduction to Russian history you could not have written that, nor believed it.  The Bolsheviks were not by nature "democratic" as western democracies understand it today, but neither were the Romanovs nor the tsarist families who ruled before them.

Where do you find evidence that the average Russian "wanted a royal family."  I don't think it mattered very much to most Russians.  If they could have had either a royal family or a democratic government that would have been fine as long as they had some semblance of human rights (they had absolutely none), and allowed an education and a way to provide a decent living for their families.  Most of their lives were wretched with no hope for a better future.

While I take issue with a great many Soviet policies (particularly under Stalin, of course), the Soviets did, in fact, make it possible for education, medical care, and other benefits of a modern society.  The tsars did not bother much with this, much to their discredit.

As for the Whites, I do not believe their ultimate intent was to restore the monarchy, certainly not in the form it had existed in prior to the revolution.

If you can provide citations that disagree with my views, I would be happy to learn about them.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 06, 2004, 11:07:49 AM
I must agree with Dashkova's last post.
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2004, 05:14:50 PM
Daskova: << Where do you find evidence that the average Russian "wanted a royal family."  I don't think it mattered very much to most Russians.>>

According to the family stories,  the officers of the Tsar's army who fought for the "WHITES" were not in favor of democracy but wanted a government like England with the symbol of the Royal Family.

This was part of the earlier Decembrists Revolution which extented into the Whites.

Unforutantely,  some of the leaders of the Whites caught the "greed" bug and saw themselves rising to power.  

And,  the Royal family did matter to most Russians, no matter their ethnic background.  I would say you've been reading too many books who's authors didn't know the Russian people.  To them,  the Tzar sat on the right  hand side of God, and called  the Tsar "their little father" and his bride was their "little mother".  The church held fast to the importance of the royal family and the majority of the peasants were loyal to the church and to their Tsar.

The Russian Revolution of 1918, the Rusian Civil War and the communist party re-created a great deal of the history of Russia.  And a great deal of their historical accounts show the Tsar was hated and picture him sitting next to the beastly Rasputin.

To those of you who believe the Tsar didn't matter,  you haven't the real picture of Russia or it's people prior to Lenin and Stalin.....

Even though my relatives and ancestors in Russia were not part of the Russian church,  they, too, felt the importance of the Tsar.  Even the poorest farmer was aware of what was happening in St. Petersburg or Moscow or Kiev....  True,  the grapevine may have been slow but there was always someone in the village who held information, understood it and then repeated the latest events.  For example: One of my ancestors was a blacksmith in the center of his village.  He knew the news which he spread to the local people.  Plus there were schools with teachers who were in touch with other teachers.... Preachers who traveled from village to village and sometimes from country to country, also, spread the news.  There were newspapers in various languages.....  So,  I find it difficult to understand why you think the people in the Black Sea area or the Volga or the Crimea or the Caucasus or the Baltic or Siberia didn't know and understand their own personal duty to their God, to their Tsar, country  and family.

AGRBear

Note:  I should have added:  It was this loyality which frighten the CHEKAs in Ekaterinburg and why they claimed to have killed Nicholas II, his family, and every Romanov they could find within their boundaries and, maybe, a few outside their coundaries.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 06, 2004, 06:20:40 PM
On one of my posts I mentioned the possibility that two Grand Dutchesses were left at Oran in French North Africa.  I found by reading Michael Occleshaw's book 'The Romanov Conspiracies' that on page 154 he mentions the possibility of a Russian family settling in Morocco at that time.

I find that very interesting. 8)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Ming on July 06, 2004, 06:43:31 PM
Please forgive me if this has already been addressed...I'm new at this.   My question is about Nicholas' sister, Olga, who emigrated to Canada.  I know she was an artist and lived simply, but I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about her two (I think) sons?

Any info will be appreciated!

Ming
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 06, 2004, 07:06:39 PM
Candice,
Why do you find that interesting?. I never read the book, but the way you say it, it could be any russian family settled in Moroco.
Could you quote, please, so I can understand perfectly what you are saying??

Thank you
Arturo
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 06, 2004, 07:45:21 PM
AGRBear,

Your last post was simply stunning. So, you actually believe that the average Russian had the time and inclination to express their loyalty and "personal duty" to the Tsar?

I think it is you who have read entirely the wrong books. So many here are caught up in the Imperial side of the Russian story.  I promise you they are such a minor part, and compared to the rest, not quite so interesting.

You wrote of "the family stories" and I am assuming you refer to your own.  I have Russian family myself, none of them revolutionaries, far from it, but they tell a very different tale from yours, especially the very old ones.

You are aware, aren't you, that a number of excellent ethnographies were written by Russians, and qualified outsiders, about the Russian people?  
I would recommend to you "Village Life in Late Tsarist Russia" by Olga Semyonova Tian-Shanskaia.  An upper class Russian herself, she lived amongst the people for four years.  She was far ahead of her time and wasn't afraid to report the truth of the matter.

I can recommend a great many more books on the same theme.  You don't need to recommend to me any books with the Imperial viewpoint, I've read most and own many of them. It was how I got started in Russian history. The material I'm working with now, I must say, is far more interesting than the gold, gilt, balls and "blind loyalty" of the Imperialist view.


There existed a type of "loyalty" in the population, but remember that the population was largely illiterate, desperately poor, and afraid of authority.  It was much easier to feign devotion or practice tradition by rote.  In fact, true devotion borne out of knowledge was not an option for these people.  Therefore, how can you say it was earnest loyalty?  

People (and we are talking about the vast majority, the whites nor the reds were a majority in the country) who knew they had no hope for a better life, who regularly worried about how they would feed their kids the next day or watched those same kids die from malnutrition or a medical problem (no money for doctors), please tell me when these people might have had the time to think about how great it was to have a tsar and that they would be loyal forever. That's a load of rubbish.

I am fortunate to be fairly well acquainted with both sides of this issue, and have respect for the Imperial past as well as the Russian people (note that I make quite a distinction between the two and believe the latter to be far superior human beings), but the fact of the matter is, if you were to have approached the average Russian (read: peasant) in Imperial times and caught him or her in an honest moment, and asked about their "loyalty" to the tsar, they would have thought you to be rather funny.

It was a little different with regard to the rich peasants (Kulaks) and with the growing middle class, to be sure. How interesting, as they had enough ease in their lives to play at Tsarist devotion.  They were, unfortunately, not the majority of the Russian people.

As to the last part of your post, regarding the Ural soviet and the killing of the tsar, please elaborate.  This part is not very clear to me.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 07, 2004, 01:55:54 PM
Dashkov wrote:  >> As to the last part of your post, regarding the Ural soviet and the killing of the tsar, please elaborate.  This part is not very clear to me.<<

I assume you were referring to my following quote:

Quote

Note:  I should have added:  It was this loyality which frighten the CHEKAs in Ekaterinburg and why they claimed to have killed Nicholas II, his family, and every Romanov they could find within their boundaries and, maybe, a few outside their coundaries.


If the CHEKA or the Soviets or the Reds didn't fear Nicholas II return to power, or replacing him with Michael or another Romanov then there was no need to order their executions.

What reason do you believe was behind the orders of executions of Nicholas II and the others?

Even the tearing down of the Impatiev House proved the undying devotion of some of the Russians continued to be a thorn in the side of the old communists.

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 07, 2004, 04:13:11 PM
Arturo,

This Romanov mystery is a puzzle.  There are so many pieces. One cannot assume that all pieces are correct of course. I'm trying to fit  pieces into my puzzle by a process of elimination.  Some pieces seem credible so I will consider them.  

'The Romanov Conspiracies' mentioned a woman claiming to be a GD having escaped and living under an assumed identity in the UK.  Was supposed to have arrived in England from Morocco.  Her name Larissa Haouk/Feodorovna.

What I'm trying to say, is, that so far North Africa and Southern Europe is a possibility for the children to have escaped to. They would not have had any problems with languages spoken in those areas as they could speak French and Italian.

The article that appeared in The Mail newspaper which mentioned French North Africa, is one. Two, the book written by Michael Occleshaw 'The Romanov Conspiracies' and three, a book that I came across recently that was printed 1930s 'The Paradise of Fools' by Michael Mason printed 1936 on page 72 mentions Anastasia in Libya.

As you know my believe is that at least two of the children survived.

Candice



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 07, 2004, 04:55:33 PM
Village life in Russia in the late 1900, I would imagine was the same as in most places anywhere in Europe under any rule.  People either had money and were able to afford anything.  However, if they were poor a person wasn't considered as human.

Religion played a dominant factor that ruled people's lifes and frightened anyone regardless of class.  The church was the rod.  

I would'nt put any blame on the Monarchy or the people's ignorance, in my opinion it was purely the sign of the times where society had not yet evovled.  I think if Alexander III not died when he did change would have continued for the better.

In todays society the  Russian people aren't afraid to speak out, they expect change and demand equal rights. Something that is still questionable. They still have a long way to go.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 07, 2004, 05:50:01 PM
It's unfortunate to always disagree with you, Candice, about this matter, anyway. However, once again I must point out certain facts of Russian history.


"Village life" the same all over Europe in the late 19th century??? You must be joking! Hurry and read some real Russian history (the kind without costume balls, k?) because in this one comment you blatantly reveal your lack of knowledge regarding Russian history.

When the "Tsar Liberator" "freed" the serfs (slaves) in 1860, he may have had good intentions, but he didn't properly follow up on what precisely "freedom" meant to the newly "freed."  

Listen.  These people (most of the population) had less than nothing. Freedom did not change this, in fact, it made life much worse.  Aside from the obvious (think about what life was like for newly freed African-American slaves), Russian peasants were given only the poorest quality land and had to pay the landlords for it (the payment plan was 50 years).  Again, these people had NOTHING. No money, no education, and the poor land they were given was invariably landlocked and guess what?  They had to pay a fee to transverse the landlord's property to reach water necessary for crops, trade, transport, indeed, even for life.

Sound like a good deal to you?  Yes it was the fault of the Tsar, if the  buck didn't stop with him, where else?  Nothing was done about the plight of the peasants because the Tsar was too busy placating the noble landowners. It was not a pleasant position to be in, but it was not impossible. He (Alex II and his successors) didn't take the time to deal with the problems brought on by "freeing" the serfs.

You see what it got them.  I don't know of any late 19th century, early 20th century European countries whose leaders were assasinated/murdered over such blatant abuse of the people.  Except, of course, Russia!

If you bother to read books about Russian history from this period (from 1860-1920) (nothing with pastel tinted photos, mind you), you will quickly realize that Russia was SO far behind the times that to compare it to Western Europe of that age -- in ANY capacity -- is not only preposterous, but also demonstrates an inexcusable type of ignorance.

Also, regarding the Occleshaw book, this book, to the best of my knowledge, has never, ever been taken seriously except by the most outlandish conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 07, 2004, 05:55:42 PM

Religion played a dominant factor that ruled people's lifes and frightened anyone regardless of class.  The church was the rod.  

###
Oops, almost forgot!  Yes, religion. Sorry, but while there were many religious people in Western Europe during the period in question, the sort of oppressive rule of church was a Medieval thing.  Don't you remember, Russia missed the Renaissance? (largely due to the Mongol invasion). Even unto Nicholas II rule, the people were still languishing in "Medieval Times".
###

In todays society the  Russian people aren't afraid to speak out, they expect change and demand equal rights. Something that is still questionable. They still have a long way to go.
[/quote]

###
To go to where?  Russian culture is an extremely complex issue, and this is already on the wrong thread.  If you'd like to spar over this particular issue, start a new one.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 07, 2004, 06:47:58 PM

I assume you were referring to my following quote:


If the CHEKA or the Soviets or the Reds didn't fear Nicholas II return to power, or replacing him with Michael or another Romanov then there was no need to order their executions.

What reason do you believe was behind the orders of executions of Nicholas II and the others?

Even the tearing down of the Impatiev House proved the undying devotion of some of the Russians continued to be a thorn in the side of the old communists.

AGRBear

[/quote]

Yes, thank you.  Since you've stated here that you are reading FOTR, I recommend you stay tuned for where the authors discuss who made the decision to kill the family, and why. I agree wholeheartedly with King and Wilson that Lenin did not order the murders, and even encouraged against them.

However, things being as they were in Ural state at that time (a populace that seemed to have a strongly revolutionary bent -- this exists in the Ural area even today!, along with the encroaching White Army) made for a mix that seemed to have led to the decision that was taken.  Pressure, and local politics, and a little panic.  I do not think for a moment that those involved with the murders were terribly concerned about Nicholas retaking the throne.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 07, 2004, 06:55:10 PM
Dashkova / Candice/  AGRBear...peace! :)

I like to debate and spar as much as anyone, but lets try to keep this discussion friendly...
Candice - you have a very sentimental heart, but the problems in Russia were extreamly complex and the Tsar was an autocrat - he had to shoulder some responsibility for a fair amount (maybe not all) of this chaotic situation.

AGRBear - maybe you might want to read more about the actual White movement and the Russian Civil War... Orlando Figes book "A Peoples Tragedy" is quite good and gives a great deal of clear information!

Dashkova - I agree with you about almost all of this, but I beg you to be patient with those who are not as familiar as you are with the complex history of this era...

R. ;D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 07, 2004, 07:07:44 PM
Candice,
Somehow after reading your post, I get the impresion (besides, thinking I am reading a post from Douglas or Rodger) that you already have a situation "Two GD escaped", or "The whole IF escaped"..and you are looking for the motivations or the events that gave as a consecuence the escaping of the two GD or the IF to the north of Africa.  In one's mind, one can INFERE a thousand  situations that could have brought as a concecuence the escaping of any menber of the royal family based on asumptions or "facts" without suport.

I, same as many other people who post here, would be happy to know for sure that ANY member of the IF escaped alive, but without any SOLID EVIDENCE, I could just keep dreaming that it happened, the rest of my life.

Some other thing, and this goes for everyone. This is a  website to discuss  Russian History, this is not a website to decide who the next  Russian Ruller will be, this is not a summit to aknowledge anyone as the true and legitimate heir to the throne of Russia,  I beleive that we should  bring  the light of knowledge to the events that are related to the last Russian IF, but with solid evidence, same as  Penny & Greg did it regarding  Sophie, sharing that kind of information so others can learn from what we know, I think is one or the porpouses of this website.

So, Candice / Rodger / Douglas / Donny, or whatever name you choose to use, unless you give us any information with a solid support with FACTS, not speculations, to back it up, we can make a whole story of how the IF escaped. (I can help you, I have a very vivid imagination myself, although, I have the feeling you do not need my help very much).

Best Regards,
Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 07, 2004, 09:28:08 PM
Hello Ming, :)

As far as I know Nicholas' sister Olga Alexandrovna  lived her last years in Canada in a small apartment above a barber's shop. I'm afraid that she died in the late 1990s ( I think) - and sadly-  I do not know the whereabouts of her children.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 07, 2004, 09:39:15 PM
 This web site is a real hoot!

Some people come with carefully thought out questions about very esoteric issues of Russian culture or tsarist society...Some people wish to clarify their already remarkable knowledge of obscure historical ephemera...and some people just want to babble on about anything that wanders through their feeble awareness!

I guess I'm with the third group   HA HA   :D

R.


Title: Kulikovsky are boRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 07, 2004, 10:02:39 PM
OA, Nicholas' sister died in 1960, in Canada. Her sons by Kulikovsky are now both dead as well. Tihon in 1993,  Guri in 1984.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 08, 2004, 01:23:41 AM
Olga Alexandrovna Romanova-Kulikovskaya 1882-1960
-Tihon Nikolaevich Kulikovsky 1917-1993
  -Olga Tihonovna Kulikovskaya 1964-
-Guri Nikolaevich Kulikovsky 1919-1984
  -Kseniya Gurievna Kulikovskaya 1941-
  -Leonid Gurievich Kulikovsky 1943-
  -Alexander Gurievich 1948-
 
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 08, 2004, 01:41:54 PM
My goodness.  This place is "a jumpin' ".

It appears that certain opinions,  such as a posible escape by one or more from the Ipatiev House,  have been harpooned.

Let me quote the first investigator on scene of the Ipatiev House and the disapearance of the Romanov and the others on the night of 16/17  July 1918.  It was written in the New York Tribune by Herman Bernstein after his meeting with Sergeyev: "...I examined the lower storey of the building where the royal family lived and where the crime was supposed to have been committed.  I do not believe that all the ... people, the tsar, his family, and those with them, were shot there."

For more information see The File On The Tsar by Summers and Mangold p. 89.

It is assumed I've read all the wrong books and do not have the slightest idea what it was really like in Russia.

As I've stated on other threads,  my ancestors were Germans who migr. to Russia at the turn of the 1800s, accept one, who was part of Tsarina Elisabeth II's court in the 1700s.  From the nobility down to the poorest peasant my roots have been issued.  I have heard every kind of story about the Romanov's  to that of Stalin's  rule.  I could match anyone story for story from the glory of serving the Romanovs down to the story where six children had to eat the end of the fingers because they were starving because the communists stated to the villagers that no one was to sell the family food because they were "enemies" of the government.

Perhaps,  my views are different than others on this thread, but, that doesn't make them untrue statements.

For example,  here in the USA we have a huge variety of living due to many events which have occured in our lives.  Some of us were born to parents who were poor.  Some of us were born to parents who were rich.  Some of us were born with HIV because our parents were spaced out and didn't know what they were doing.... From each child has and will be sent forth a different version of his or her life in the USA.  Some people have or will grow up hating the government whom they blame for their troubles.  Some have or will grow up loving the USA and serve the country in all different ways.  This is life.  

So, please,  do not bounce on those of us who see life differently than you do.

Gooooof.

For this old lady that was a long jump off my soap box.

Love the debate so keep it going people.

AGRBear



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 08, 2004, 01:56:58 PM
Quote
AGRBear:  >>
If the CHEKA or the Soviets or the Reds didn't fear Nicholas II return to power, or replacing him with Michael or another Romanov then there was no need to order their executions.




The reasons I named all three, the CHEKA, Soviets and Reds, is because they all had this same fear.  So,  it doesn't matter who ordered the execution, the basic reason for doing it, if it was done that night or a year later, was the same.  I believe after the Revolution of 1918 there was a war called the Russian Civil War which lasted several more years.  Evidently, not everyone was happy with the life under Lenin and then Stalin.  And, if a strong Romanov had exsisted, but done did because they had been killed, and   had risen up against the communists, there might well have been a different fate than Russia ended up having.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 08, 2004, 06:51:56 PM
Valmont, my information comes from articles and books which I have mentioned in my posts. If these are the wrong kind of source material than most of the information made public is, therefore, rubbish!

Regards,

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 08, 2004, 07:00:06 PM
AGRBear, I tend to agree with you. :)

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 08, 2004, 07:43:51 PM
AGRBear/ Candice,

    I don't think that anyone here is out to get either of you- although I know that when the discussions get really motivated it might appear that way!

    I am glad that you have such a colorful heritage AGRBear, with such interesting ancestors... they are obviously very very important to you...( Not that it matters, but I'm not at all Russian - simply fascinated with the culture language & history.)

   I still feel that the Summers/Mangold's "alternative history" is very far fetched.  I do hope that you will keep reading and researching... You never know what you might find.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 08, 2004, 08:54:17 PM
I agree, nobody is out to "get" anybody here.  The only difficulty I have is when broad assumptions are drawn about Russian people.  The old tale about how much the people loved the tsar is a myth. It has provoked annoyance and ironic smiles from every Russian I have ever known, in the states, abroad, and in Russia, from all types of Russian heritage.

My own studies and academic research into this subject only verifies all  I have been told.


Even today, few Russians have much appreciation for the Tsarist period. It's not what they are about now, and if anything, provokes sad memories of ancestors who were enslaved, and then the ugly murders, for which they still feel guilty.  But the interest in this family that is so strong in the west simply is not found among Russian people today.  They wonder why we are so interested.  Ingrid Bergman, Anna Anderson, and Robert Massie have much to do with this, and not many Russians know about any of these. And don't really want to know.

When I was in St. Petersburg last month, my guide did not really want to take me to the Alexander Palace.  "There's nothing there, it is not interesting," I was told. I had to insist several times that we go there. They simply do not get it!  I was told this reaction is typical.

Taken alone, and as good human beings, I have a lot of sympathy and interest in Nicholas II, his family and his ancestors.  He came to the throne at a point in time when maltreatment of the populace had become intolerable and there really was no turning back.  Slavery and the ripple effect it causes is never right, and I can never support such policies from any government, and again, I realize Nicholas II was handed this dreadful situation on a silver platter, and no peaceful solutions. Still, had he been given a different sort of upbringing (i.e.: if his father had not taken a reactionary stand -- though understandable in light of his father's murder) things might possibly have been different, but I doubt it.  He seemed to be unable to comprehend that in fact he was not a "little father" to millions. He had not a clue to their sufferings and did nothing to help alleviate their misery. Despite everything, I believe he could have tried harder.  Certainly for the sake of his beautiful family he should have done so.  That he didn't speaks volumes of his true character.

As to survival, hey, I don't think there's anybody here who wouldn't love to learn that anyone survived. I see nothing wrong with continuing to explore the possibilities.  Humans possessing kind hearts cannot help even today to grieve and hope that somehow there were survivors.

But I think we all have to look at this case with a cold, hard eye. To do otherwise, in my opinion, and as a historian, is irresponsible. The wishful thinking and romance and mystery must not get in the way of the facts.  The evidence indicates that probably nobody got out alive.  Yes, of course, there are hints, and bits and pieces of information floating around like so much flotsam and jetsom, information that could possibly point to a different story.  None of these pieces have yet formed a mosaic that points to a different reality.

This is not to say it never will. Yet in the face of continued research, including Greg and Penny's book,  more is revealed but the outcome remains the same.

I personally believe that several of the books that have been mentioned on this site (all of which I have read, and at one time could quote from Summers and Mangold) are the products of wishful thinking, and not entirely objective research.

I have been reading about and studying this story for many years.  Do I hold a little hope in my heart at this point? Of course. I don't think anybody would feel otherwise.  But the more time that goes by, the more I feel it is a cruel insult to the memory of this family, who most likely perished together, and should be left in peace.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 08, 2004, 09:00:58 PM
I'd also like to point out that it was the Soviets who restored the palaces in St. Petersburg, while the Alexander Palace struggles with restoration expenses during the post-Soviet period.

Personally, I prefer Moscow. That's the real Russia :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 09, 2004, 12:02:25 AM
Well, actually, this is only partially true. The Soviet government did fund some restoration work at Tsarskoe Selo for both the Catherine and Alexander palaces before WWII.

However, the Nazis did significant damage there, especially to the Alexander Palace. And, because of the sympathies that were aroused for the Imperial Family when viewing the Alexander Palace, the Soviet government became unwilling to spend any more money to "restore the restoration". Thus, there was no more museum and the building was turned over to the Baltic Fleet.

By the time of the third Russian Revolution, there was still work to be done on the Catherine, and there was a generation of deferred maintenance on the Alexander that needed to be done as a result of Soviet deliberate neglect. So, indeed, the Russian Federation has had difficulty funding work on these palaces.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 09, 2004, 08:45:20 AM
Hello all,
Back on topic

I still don't think that there are any serious claiments - if by claiment you mean secret survivors or children of survivors. Yes a lot of Romanovs survived (putting paid to Rasputins so called "prophecy" - haha) but I don't know if any of them can still claim to be entitled.

R. :D

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2004, 03:44:09 PM
Quote

I personally believe that several of the books that have been mentioned on this site (all of which I have read, and at one time could quote from Summers and Mangold) are the products of wishful thinking, and not entirely objective research.


Summers and Mangold's book The File On the Tsar was the first book to question the data which was repeated over and over in other books.  I think they made some excellent points.  Also, they stepped out of the box which holds the theory that NOT all were killed in the Ipatiev House on the night of 16/17 July 1918.  Since then, more information is being revealed to the public eye.  King and Wilson's book Fate of the Romanovs continue the search and reveal more facts.  Personaly, I think, it is up to the readers, like you and me, to make our own decision as to what we may or may not believe on the night of 16/17  July 1918.  

As for myself,  I have an unusal interest which I've already voice on another thread under: "What got you interested in the Romanovs" Posts #74 and #76.  And to make it brief:  In or about 1947, I was about five years old,  a man, who's name I don't know, told me a story about the night of the 16/17 July and what happened.  Also, where the bones would be found and that two bodies would be missing.  So, my search is to discover who this man was, why he told me what he did,  and how much truth was there to this story, and, if true, then why tell a child and why me?

In the 1970s,  I wrote down a brief description of what I knew and who the two missing Romanov's were.  The papers were stamped with offical seals and can hold up in any court of law here in the USA.

Since the 1980s,  I have read just about everything about the Romanovs and continue to do so.

So far,  no one has disproven what I was told.

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 09, 2004, 08:10:08 PM
AGRBear....

  In the Wiccan/ Neo Pagan community saying this sort of thing was called a "Grandmother story" ... good luck!

  I am glad that you had your memoirs sealed and documented somewhere... (I guess).... But this still doesn't explain anything about the survivors theories ....
Oh no... please don't tell me... am I to guess that your  Mr. XXX is a survivor/claimant?  Or maybe ...could it be ...ohhh   noooo....not agggainnnn... :-/

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Ilana on July 09, 2004, 10:11:28 PM
Ming,
Paul Kuilikovsky, Olga's great-grandson lives in London.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 11, 2004, 04:38:12 PM
Quote
AGRBear....
Oh no... please don't tell me... am I to guess that your  Mr. XXX is a survivor/claimant?  Or maybe ...could it be ...ohhh   noooo....not agggainnnn... :-/

R.


I am smiling at your attempted humor,  ;D, HOWEVER, I have not stated if there were survivors or if there were not, according to my Mr. XXX's story.   I will say, that he made no such claims to me of being a Romanov [through the front door or  back door].  So, you can relax.  AND, I repeat, I am not Rodger and make no claims he has been said to have made.

If you or anyone else have an answer as to why I was told, I'm willing to listen.  Because, I sure don't know.

Anyway, let's return to the subject of claimants.

If all the eleven were killed  on the night of 16/17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House, why were the Red Army sending out soldiers looking for "missing" Romanovs after the 16th of July?

Example:  p. 343 - In the File On the Tsar, Summers and Mangold mention the chief of the Swedish Red Cross mission was traveling in a private railway-car.  The train was stopped and "searched in order to find Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of Tsar Nicholas II".

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: ptitchka on July 11, 2004, 05:38:16 PM
I was under the impression that according to one source some soldiers were told to backtrack the route the truck had taken in order to find two bodies that had rolled or been bounced off the vehicle:  Alexei and his sister -- and not as if they were looking for living children.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 11, 2004, 08:12:22 PM
ANGRBear,

Thanks for "smiling at my attempted humor"  ???

Anyway, I know that I would better understand your information about Mr XXX - and what he told you-- if you could explain that information to the good people here...It's hard to discuss things that we aren't aware of... if you take my meaning ... so I would love it if you could reveal the story...

About the survivor issue - I guess I'm still not convinced that there were any. Yes- two bodies are missing! I accept that without reservation - I guess that I still not convinced that anybody escaped or was somehow secreted away....

I might be wrong tho...
R.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 12, 2004, 07:51:17 AM
Nothing will be put to rest until the bodies are found.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 12, 2004, 11:44:12 AM
Today there was a very big article in the Telegraph newspaper(UK) saying " Scientists reopen the Romanov mystery".  Thank heavens for that!  I hate when anything is brushed aside and buried because some people have the influence to do that.  To me, there's a mystery about the death of The Family and we should find out what actually happened in 1917/1918.  I believe that this has come about because the Russians have tried to hide the truth.  I maintain my believe that two of the Tsars daughters did escape and in my opinion it was Olga and Anastasia that survived.

So the scientists are battling for the truth, at last.  How exciting!

The paper also says that " Dr. Peter de Knijff, head of the Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research at Leiden University in the Netherlands, agrees that the Gill-Ivanov study was "unrealistically solid".

Dr. Knight said: "We have uncovered irregularities and inconsistencies (and very strange goings-on) in the case, and the results claimed by the DNA tests are essentially impossible."

It's always about confusing, manipulating and contriving truth to the extend that one doesn't know what is the truth.  So political don't you think.




Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 12, 2004, 12:57:18 PM
This is the same Telegraph that reported the  Russian customs inspector to be  Alexei's heir, and a 101 year old woman [also Russian] to be the last "real" Anastasia.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 12, 2004, 08:07:39 PM
Candice

    Sorry, but a lot of people here may have already heard about some "imperfections" in the Tsars DNA - I certainly had read about it in a number of scientific journals.
   Dr Gill has commented in some detail as to a slight and very unusual mutation in some of the readings. I do not have the particular book in front of me so as to quote to you-- but I would suggest that you read "Looking for Anastasia" its a fine book available in almost any library, it was writtem in the late 1990's (as I remember) and hopefully it will clarify some of the controversy for you.

PS--- I don't see any of this as "political"-- I see it as decent scientific research. No scientist would complain if his methods are reexamined or even questioned by other scientists...although I am sure that the rantings of paranoid people lost in conspiratorial fantasies might be a little tiresome! ::)

R. ;D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2004, 08:39:03 PM
Quote
This is the same Telegraph that reported the  Russian customs inspector to be  Alexei's heir, and a 101 year old woman [also Russian] to be the last "real" Anastasia.
Cheers,
Robert



I am not familar with the Telegraph in the UK. ?  Could you explain farther Robert?

Quote
I don't see any of this as "political"-- I see it as decent scientific research. No scientist would complain if his methods are reexamined or even questioned by other scientists... ::)

R. ;D


I agree.

Next question: What kind of court order would they need to unseal the coffins since they have been sealed and buried?
 
AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 12, 2004, 10:53:10 PM
The Telegraph newspaper in the UK reported all 3 articles, the DNA conference in Brisbane, plus the Alexei descendant & the 101 year old Anastastia. Among other Romanov articles.
It is a fairly well known paper, if a bit shady at times.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 13, 2004, 01:30:48 PM
rskkiya, you mean DNA mutations? I don't think they had any imperfections.  Yes, ofcourse I know everyone knows.  Sorry, I didn't make my point clearer. :(

My point was, I am very please that the case will be reopened.  The Scientists concerned should own up to being misled by the Russians and start a new with their own DNA investigation.  They're wasting time by accusing each other being vindictive and political.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 13, 2004, 05:05:28 PM
Robert_Hall, I consider the Telegraph in the UK to be one of the more serious newspapers.  However, what newspaper isn't a bit shady? :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2004, 06:58:11 PM
Quote
The Telegraph newspaper in the UK reported all 3 articles, the DNA conference in Brisbane, plus the Alexei descendant & the 101 year old Anastastia. Among other Romanov articles.


Can we find these stories on-line, if not,  does anyone have time to tell us briefly what was said?

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 14, 2004, 07:25:19 PM
AGRBear

Sometimes you just have to do a little research!
Check out "Looking For Anastasia" in your local library- sorry- I don't have the name of the authors... My copy has been borrowed...
You could also locate a microfich of the Telegraph report there too.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2004, 09:15:43 AM
You can search the Telegraph.co.uk for free on line [Untill it is finally decided who is buying it I suppose]. The DNA conference article is by Highfiels, 12/7 but they also list an additional 110 articles on the Romanovs over the past few years. BTW, I read everything, just about from The Times to The Guardian, and yes, they all have their shady sides, Candice.
Cheers
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Janet_W. on July 15, 2004, 01:32:31 PM
As a member of the press (albeit a minor one), I have to ask who and/or what doesn't have a "shady side"? Wherever one or more homo sapiens congregrate, you'd better  believe that sooner or later there are going to be complicatons, and very possibly shennanigans!  

A wide variety of people and organizations comprise "the media"--in fact, this website could also be considered media, with all of us as its contributors--and the integrity levels vary, as they do in all professions.

The idea behind a newspaper or other printed medium, however, is that printed word (and since the invention of radio, the broadcast word) can not only inform, question, and serve as a "watchdog," but also bind the reporter to accountability. Most journalists are aware they are being held to a higher standard and will be dismissed if they do not behave in ethical fashion, and they therefore act accordingly.

Perhaps this has been off-topic, but perhaps not . . . because of censorship issues in both Tsarist and post-Tsarist Russia, plus our own questions about reportage re: the assassination of the Tsar and his family, sooner or later journalistic ethics are bound to be part of the discussion.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 15, 2004, 03:12:47 PM
Ok ! Ok...One giant worldwide paranoid conspiracy at a time!

This Giant conspiracy is about the so called Romanov Survivors... (wow-- its the new reality tv show...who will be voted away from the firing squad next...! ;D)

Whether the media is bias, shady, sainty, liberal, conservative or the pawns of the freemasons is another topic!

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2004, 05:34:40 PM
The Reds continued their lies.  On 22 Sept 1918 [p. 178 in File On the Tsar] the Izestiya newspaper published a story that Nicholas II's body was exhumed from the grave in the woods and placed in a zinc coffin....  On the same page of the same book Summers and Mangold tell us that Pravda reported that 28 people were placed on trial for the murder of the "whole Romanov household".  Fourteen were found guilty and executed.  More lies??

What other lies have the USSR officials fed  us which so many people have swallowed hook line and sinker?

Ahhh,  yes,  how about the reports by the eye witnesses that they burned and then buried Alexei and one other person, whom we now debate as to whether it was Marie or Anastasia?  This was obviously a lie. Nothing has been found to prove this part of their story. So  what esle did they lie about?

I for one, know full well, the impact that the CHEKA then the GPU and later the KGB had on people whom they threaten if they didn't keep their silence.  Oh, and, they had many ways to make sure that the silence was kept.  Maybe, they threaten to kill the families of the guards involved.  They had done this before.  Whole families vanished in the night.  Everyone knew this. So, all the guards knew  what would happen if they did not repeat what they were told to say.  Wasn't it Rudolf Lacher who voiced: "I served the Bolsheviks well.  I kept my silence."  This is found on p. 516 in the Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson.

Now, don't tell me that I'm parnoid.  There are two real clues which indicate someone was lying.   Two missing bodies are missing in the Koptyaki grave and meadow.

Two bodies didn't just suddenly come alive and walk away...

So, where are they, and why did the witnesses continue to tell us they were buried where they were not?

Please, don't push at me the question:  "If they did survive, why didn't they show their faces after that night?"  Maybe they did, but, we may never know.  The CHEKA then the GPU and the the KGB were very good at keeping secrets.

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 16, 2004, 10:44:38 AM
AGRBear, I don't believe the stories from the Russians either.  I also think you have answered your own questions. I think your looking for clarification in order to continue your line of investigation.  Whether you get it that is another matter.  Most of the information regardless of the documentation is all speculation thanks to the controlling powers in Russia who have benefited well.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 16, 2004, 11:08:14 AM
Russia is a very big country.  The Ural area has wide stretches of wilderness and has been notorious for secreted burials for centuries.

Sure, as long as there are not enough bodies accounted for, there's a chance that two got away.  Now, how far they got is yet another question.  Furthermore, one would have to dig up the entire route traveled by the truck (over two days) to reliably increase the chances of survival.

As to "not believing the Russians," this is just juvenille thinking, and painting the people involved (directly and on the periphery) as nothing but a pack of liars.  For political expediency, sure, plenty of lies must have been told.  Fake "searches" for Romanovs also took place.  

But underlying all of this, the people who left their memories recorded WERE THERE.  We were not.  Embedded within their reports are truths and untruths.  What we have as individuals living today, are only our own speculation.

Historically speaking, those living at the time and participating in one form or another, are the most reliable.  To discriminate against anyone's documented memoirs simply because they are of a particular nationality (Oh, they're Russian...I don't believe *their* stories) is blatantly irresponsible. Not too bright, either.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2004, 04:56:50 PM
Quote

As to "not believing the Russians," this is just juvenille thinking, and painting the people involved (directly and on the periphery) as nothing but a pack of liars.  For political expediency, sure, plenty of lies must have been told.  Fake "searches" for Romanovs also took place.  

---
 To discriminate against anyone's documented memoirs simply because they are of a particular nationality (Oh, they're Russian...I don't believe *their* stories) is blatantly irresponsible. Not too bright, either.


Since all my ancestors were from Russia,  I'd be the last to discriminate against Russians or any person because of his/her nationality, religion or color.

As for believing those involved, well,  since my ancestors were from Russia,  I don't need to explain to my family nor those who suffered under the Bolshviki, CHEKA, GPU, KGB or the Red Army, but to others, let me explain:  There is a saying: When the Soviets wanted to keep a secret,  the best way was to make sure there was only one person left who knew, and,  sometimes it was necessary to eliminate that person for the sake of the Soviet Union."  With rules like this,  why wouldn't a few people be told to lie about something as important as fixing a mess, if all didn't go as planned and because of this continued need to hid the truth, most people will probably never know  what really happen on the night of July 16/17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House

When Lenin died, there was Stalin and ....then came Khrushchev.
Please, do not waste your time telling me that they weren't capable of sending such an order "for the sake of the Soviet Union"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 16, 2004, 05:20:52 PM
AGRBEar, my post was not particularly directed to you, and sure, plenty of people on all sides of the political fences were eliminated, none for good reasons (to our modern minds).

This sort of thing was also rampant under Tsarist rule, from Ivan Grozni to Nicholas II.  It goes on today, in different guises, such as the journalist recently murdered.

Not a whole lot has changed over a milenium, which is why it is very annoying to repeatedly read about non-existent "good old days."

As for Khrushev, for pity's sake, considering it was the Soviet Union we're talking about, the man had a lot of good ideas for reform.  They don't call it "The Thaw" for nothing! But the powers that be behind the powers that be (namely Suslov) sent Nikita packing.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 16, 2004, 09:36:55 PM
AGRBear...

I am so confused...first you were American-- then you were German,  then you're a German from Russia... now your Russian?
Y ne'panimiayu!  Y ne'panimiayu!

Just stop worrying about whatever heritage you want to claim for yourself and give us the facts... After all I'm English, but that doesn't mean that I have a genetically  better knowlege of the House of York or Plantagenant than a scholar who has devoted her life to the study!

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 17, 2004, 01:34:51 AM
Quote
As to "not believing the Russians," this is just juvenille thinking, and painting the people involved (directly and on the periphery) as nothing but a pack of liars.  For political expediency, sure, plenty of lies must have been told.  Fake "searches" for Romanovs also took place.  

But underlying all of this, the people who left their memories recorded WERE THERE.  We were not.  Embedded within their reports are truths and untruths.  What we have as individuals living today, are only our own speculation.

Historically speaking, those living at the time and participating in one form or another, are the most reliable.  To discriminate against anyone's documented memoirs simply because they are of a particular nationality (Oh, they're Russian...I don't believe *their* stories) is blatantly irresponsible. Not too bright, either.


I agree Dashkova.  Should we make up stories about what happened on 16/17 July 1918 or refer to documented memoirs of people who were actually there? Just they are communists doesn't mean they are incapable of teeling the truth.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 17, 2004, 11:17:42 AM
Olga and Dashkova!

Dubroye utro! (good morning)

You both have delightful precise and witty posts and its  always a delight to discover them.

ALAS  (sigh) We seem to have forgotten that AGRBear possesses  [glb]secret knowledge [/glb]all about the Real Fate of The Romanovs...
She really ought to tell us all this shocking story now...
don't you think? ;D

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2004, 12:58:34 PM
It is true, I was told a story about 1946.  So, I have been asking various questions on various threads to see if I can prove or disprove what I was told.  I see no reason to say more at this time since I don't believe in repeating what might be just another "red herring" or "white rumor".

Some of my  questions  seem to spark remarks like Rskkiya's.  

As for being American and German and Russian,   these people already know from the various theads,  my ancestors were Germans who migrated to Russia in the late 1700s and early 1800s then left Russia for the good old USA in the late 1800s and early 1900s.  Not confusing at all.  

Now, can we get back to the subject, please.

If two bodies are missing, can we assume the two escaped?  If they escaped we should ask:  "When?"  "How?"  "Who helped them?"  "Is there evidence this might be possible?"

Most agree that Alexei may not have lived very long  if he did escape.  However,  Anatasia/ Marie could have.  Most of us have ruled out Anna Anderson.  There were 29 other women who claimed they were Anatasia/ Marie, Olga or Tatiana.  Could one of them been the real missing daughter?  Anything is possible, not highly probable, but possible.  And,  I think that is the direction this thread is supose to be moving.

AGRBear :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 17, 2004, 01:06:05 PM
AGRbear

Will you tell us what you know?

About the bodies ...do you agree that alexie is not there?  I am convinced that we do not yet have his remains.
Most forensic experts (and I am not a forensic expert) agree that most likely Anastasia is not in the grave.  I accept this possibility too.

I do not believe that they escaped. I think that the bodies were damaged & burned and have not yet been found.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 17, 2004, 03:06:16 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Rskkiya.
Just because 2 bodies are missing does not in any way imply,indicate or otherwisae hint that there was survival.It just means that they are missing.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2004, 04:06:33 PM
How did they become missing 86 years ago today ???

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 17, 2004, 04:12:20 PM
AGRBear

Do you mean "where are the bodies?" 'Where did they go ?"  Is that your question?

I thought that you had read Yurovsky's note (its viewable at this site) explaining all about dispossing of the remains.

But I guess you won't believe him because he's a big bad revolutionary!   Right?

If you have any other idea about the remains just tell us...ok?

R.


Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 17, 2004, 04:38:30 PM
Yurovsky's note is really very clear...

I think that he may have misidentified one of the corpes as that of Demidova, because the bodies had been partially disfigured. And if they had been left in the water for even 24 hours no doubt they would have started to bloat and decompose.

simple

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 17, 2004, 11:28:49 PM
Hi R

But what do you mean by really very clear? The 1920 note, 1922 memoirs, or the 1934 note?
THis was pointed out very well in the "fate of the romanovs"
how could yurvorsky forget how many bodies he burned only 5 years after the event. (in 1922 he states he only burned alexi)
amnesia would be stretching it....

But I think the best evidence, though circumstancial and subjective, for something odd happening at the four brothers mine were in his comments he made regarding the Grand Duchess Marie.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 18, 2004, 09:16:44 AM
Jeremy
Hello!

I don't follow...please explain-- what remarks about Marie?

I am familiar with the statement from 1934 and one statement from the 1920s (sorry I forget which one)...I did not notice any significant differences between these statements (although I did not parce them word for word) other than some explanations about the soldiers fatique.

Do you have all three copies and are they available in translation?

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 18, 2004, 02:44:47 PM
AGR Bear: The purpose of this thread is to discuss serious survivor claims. If you have something to say about what you heard in 1946, then you should simply say it. Beating around the bush is annoying to say the least. Whether or not it is credible or not will eventually get sorted out.

The only interesting survivor tidbit I've found is a few lines from Eugenia Smith's Anastasia book. She mentions an Tsarist officer throwing two bodies off the infamous truck when it broke down - Alexis and herself.

I don't think Smith is Anastasia for a moment - but within these lines is information that contains truth. There were Tsarist officers in and around Ekaterinburg when the IF were still alive and there are two missing bodies. The first may have been known by some time, but I would guess that few people knew exactly how many bodies were unaccounted for prior to 1991.

I thus wonder who her sources were?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 18, 2004, 06:06:51 PM
Is or was Anastassi a common name then?  Is there a photo of him anywhere  even as a priest? How old would he have been in 1918?  Sorry to ask so many questions but this is very interesting and could be helpful with another very important piece in my puzzle.

AGRBear it would be very interesting if you would share anything at all.  May I ask you please, were you living in the USA 1946 when the mystery xxx spoke to you about the event of 1918 and if so, where.

As always I appreciate your comments and thank you.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 18, 2004, 08:17:36 PM
Candice

WHAT PRIEST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ??

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 18, 2004, 11:44:47 PM
Quote
It is true, I was told a story about 1946.  So, I have been asking various questions on various threads to see if I can prove or disprove what I was told.  I see no reason to say more at this time since I don't believe in repeating what might be just another "red herring" or "white rumor".


I'm sure we wouldn't mind if you just told us this story. Maybe somebody here will be able to prove/disprove what you were told.

Candice, do you have another story? We'd all like to hear it.

Dobroye utro, rskkiya!  ;D Kak dyela?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 19, 2004, 09:40:52 AM
Dobrui ultro Olga!
Spasibah kharasho...a buie?

I wonder if Angrbear will tell us her thrilling tale! ;D

Paka
R.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 19, 2004, 03:46:20 PM
Hi R

Sorry, I don't have my notes in front of me, and I'm not going to argue this isn't a subjective point, but I believe the statement occurs (according to "The Fate Of The Romanovs" anyway) in the 1922 memoirs.
When Yurvorsky reaches the mine he states that he finds diamonds on three of the Grand Duchesses, but not on the Grand Duchess Marie, and he writes

" I was not surprised by this, as once again it reflected her disgraced position in the ROmanov family at the end."

cross that with his earlier statements about firing and firing at the girls but they "wouldn't die." and bayonet piercings in which he points out Marie specificilly and says "the bayonet would not pierce her bodice."
Then, there is the likelyhood that Marie revived in the courtyard as the bodies were being loaded unto the truck. Again, the bayonets "would not pierce them."

Okay, so what was protecting her if she didn't have a diamond corset like the other girls?

I thought at first someone must have stolen the jewels. But his own statement shoots down this first theory. "Not surprised"? By witnessing a 19 year old girl bounce bullets and bayonet blows with her bare body knowing that her sisters all had diamonds and other valuables under their clothes?

Then I thought well something else must have been protecting her..but what else would be so valuable that it would be hidden under her clothes... except for valuables>?

Then I thought, well she had already left for Ekaterinburg with her parents when the other girls received the order to "arrange their medicines" and wasn't there to sew the jewels into her clothes.
But, neither, was Alexandra, and Yurvorksy mentions finding specific jewels on her.

And, finally, how exactly does he know that finding her without diamonds under her clothes was a reflection on her position in the Romanov family at the end? Does anyone believe that he actually stood at the door as they were changing, and heard someone say such a statement to Marie specificilly. In which case, he would have known about the diamonds, and not written about discovering why exactly the girls "wouldn't die" when he began undressing the corpses. But it didn't happen that way.

So, he's only guessing about the "reflection on her disgraced position in the Romanov family" part (she had been caught doing something "improper" with a guard I think, whatever "improper would be by Victorian standards. )  But why would he feel the need to take such a guess unless he really was surprised to begin with?

So, I think either HE stole the jewels off of Marie, or one of the girls wasn't there to be buried. And he was trying to make some logical explanation for it.

Standing on it's own, the statement is just scientifically impossible. Even if you were to argue that every bullet missed, what about the bayonet thrusts? How would she have survived all of that trauma without the "diamond shield" like her sisters?

If anyone else has any theories that you think might work I'd like to hear them too.

And, in 1922 Yurvorsky changes the number of bodies burned from 2 to 1. (Alexi)

more later
Jeremy

P.S.
If someone believes in the idea of a Romanov survivor "Diamond shields" are also of interest when looking at the medical historys of different "Anastasia claiments" Like ANastasia "Grecheva" who the doctor said was  "baring no chest injuries" and the article on the Anastasia claiment who died in 1971, with injuries on her arms, but no report of injuries on her chest

This  instead of scars all over the place, in vital areas where it would be quite impossible to survive if stabbed wit h a bayonet or hit by a bullet, and not receiving immediate medical attention.  


     
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 19, 2004, 04:47:58 PM
I apologize for confusing you rskkiya, I got the posts crossed.  The priest I was referring to was Anastassi or Anastassy as mentioned in another post, he was supposed to have written something?  




Quote
Candice

WHAT PRIEST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ??

R.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 19, 2004, 05:00:46 PM
Olga, I do have a story but there are pieces still missing from my puzzle and I don't want to cause a stampede! All I can say for the moment, is that, the Orthodox church is invovled.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 19, 2004, 09:02:46 PM
Candice

Do you have the same story as ANGBear?  

We are so interested... ::). Please just don't keep us waiting any longer. ;)

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 20, 2004, 05:14:54 PM
Yes, looks like Candice & Angry Bear are playing  in the same team...What I do not know, is how sharing such an important secret would cause an stampede?, and why Angry Bear does not share her story either... Copyright matters, maybe??

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 20, 2004, 06:37:24 PM
Yes, stampede indeed. "Hot off the press !, and what could possibly be said that we have not heard at least some semblance of before ?
At this speed, I'll wait for the movie version.....
Cheers
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 20, 2004, 09:36:18 PM
AGRBear and Candice- are you the same person? And really, if you're not going to tell us these claimant/survivor stories, then don't talk about them.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2004, 09:41:57 PM
Bozshmoi!

If Angrbear is Candice ...then... could they both be...Rodger!  DUhDunndunn! ;D
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2004, 10:48:55 PM
Several of you, who  apparently have become bored in the non-serious thread,  have jumped over to this thead  with your silly antics.  If  our questions bore you then please start a different thread where you can have your fun.  If you wish to present us with some good answers and / or suggestions, please do, because I for one welcome good suggestions  and / or answers.

Pease note my name.  It is not Rodger, nor Candice nor Angrbear nor angrybear.  

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 21, 2004, 12:41:07 AM
Okay, so you say you aren't any of those people. You still have not answered my question. Are you going to explain your theory of what happened or not?
Title: " they dissapeareRe: For Serious Claimants, P
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 21, 2004, 03:24:57 AM
One could posit, ANRYBear, that the bodies were missing from the very begining.  No one has said "whoosh, they dissapeared".

And so far as I can tell, every poster on this thread is just as legitimate as the others.  Or are some "theories" more correct than others?
Cheers,
RH
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 21, 2004, 02:55:37 PM
AGRBear,
You do not bore us with your questions (And I think I can speak for the rest regarding this). What  I do not understand, is all the suspense and mistery about something that someone (A misterious man) told you 57 years ago, when you were only 5 years old. You can tell a lot of things to a 5 year old kid, and  they do not necessarily have to be true.

Could you please answer my question this time?

Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2004, 03:24:05 PM
Quote
Hi R
 
....how could yurvorsky forget how many bodies he burned only 5 years after the event. (in 1922 he states he only burned alexi)
amnesia would be stretching it....


Yurovksy's memory appears to be faulty.  Or is it?  His memory might have been very good, it's just that he may not have been telling us the truth the first time, the second nor the third time.

Why would he lie?  He thought he could get away with lying if the grave was never found.  And, I assume,  he never could have imagined all the scientific knowledge we have, now, to discover not only the ages of the bones but also their sex and DNA.

Let me throw this theory out to Jeremy:  What if Marie and her soldier friend left  and did not return on the day of her birthday?  From what I understand from the other threads, Marie had felt rejected by her family and the others.  And,  she had a good relationship with the guards.  Perhaps it was the five guards whose bodies were later discovered by the Four Brother's Mine, who had helped Marie and the soldier escape...  The rest of the family was executed to prevent any more rescues.  Since they had Anatasia, Yurovsky could have sent out words that she was the one missing.  If any questions were raised by local CHEKAs or Moscow,  he could say, the rumors were false because he had Anatasia and could prove it. Which he could, if it was Marie who had gone missing.   As for Alexei's body being burnt, then this would go along with one of Yurovsky's statements which eliminates a female body being burnt.

AGRBear

PS.  A note to Robert:  We all are  interested in your theory.  
PSS. Lisa, Valmont....:  Please take a look at my reply #102 for my answer
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 21, 2004, 04:32:18 PM
Hi everyone!  I'm not AGRBear nor Roger or anyone else.  I am simply Candice :)

I believe that Anastasia and Olga were the two girls that went missing. That, I have always believed.  As for other members of the family such as Maria or Tatiana, I don't know? Because this being a mystery I too have to be open minded.  However, I have a photo that I'd like to share with you and possibly have your comments? So Forum Adm  if it is possible to share this image with you how do I post it?  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 21, 2004, 04:43:39 PM
email it to me and I will post it.
And, for the record, the IP of each poster is logged and recorded, and I can check them. Agr, Candice, Rodger are all indeed different people (unless someone has a private jet!!)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Janet_W. on July 21, 2004, 05:11:33 PM
Candice, "believing" is subject to interpretation and can mean having faith, being a wishful thinker, or possessing hard evidence. We'll look forward to knowing which type of believing you're referring to!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 21, 2004, 05:40:13 PM
I am not saying they are the same person. I just "feel" they are in the same "team"...But, hey, I am open to new theories...I have to admit,  That I never heard that one about GD Marie.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 22, 2004, 09:40:47 AM
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/upe3000.jpg)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on July 22, 2004, 02:32:46 PM
Who is this photo supposed to be of?It doesn't look like any of the IF to me.
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest and I'm very interested in knowing what your stories are Candice and AGRBear.I just hope you two will reveal them soon,this waiting is rather ridiculous.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 22, 2004, 03:07:25 PM
Candice asked me to post it here. Perhaps she will clarify soon.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 22, 2004, 04:19:13 PM
I can throw my weight in gold  to the beting table, she's going to say it is GD Marie...
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 07:05:46 PM
I can assure you of this it isn't GD Marie. :)  However, I have compared her with Anastasia and I find a very good resemblance.  But, I don't have any decent images that are clear enough to have posted one next to my mystery XXXXXXXX person.  

FA would it be possible for you to post a clear image of Anastasia so they are next to each other for viewers to assess both images.  Hope I'm not asking for too much.  This is for discussion sake.

Thank you for your understanding and kindness.

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 22, 2004, 07:11:36 PM
Thank god I'm skinny..
So, Candice, how did you come to the posession of this picture?
Could you please fill us in?

Best.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 22, 2004, 07:27:13 PM
oh gawd... not more pictures...

Y'know---for what its worth I have a pictiure of my greataunt that looks just like your Mystery girl...I guess that I'm suddenly royal now...hehehe!

Lol  ;D
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 07:36:32 PM
Valmont, sorry but I can't reveal my source at present because I still have too many pieces to research before I can say anymore. I just wanted for discussion sake post this photo of my mysteryxxxxxxxx person.

I also must say that AGRBear and I do not have any plan, I really don't know who AGRBear is.  I am interested in the questions AGRBear has put to this post and other posts as well. Very interesting. I like the line of investigation.  

Regards,

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 07:49:10 PM
rskkiya, one thing I must make clear here, no one is claiming royalty!  If you have any issues about being royal more power to you.  I  believe that many people are still facinated with the mystery of the Imperial family's dissappearance and just like me, want to find the truth whatever that may be.



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 22, 2004, 09:01:58 PM
No Candice--I'm not royal...(its called a joke dear...)

So, you want us to look at that photo and tell you if its Anastasia?

bozhmoi....

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 23, 2004, 06:49:27 PM
rskkiya, thank you for your kind reply.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 24, 2004, 12:16:14 AM
AGRBear - I find your P.S. response to Valmont and myself to be insufficient and bordering on disrespectful to us. We have both asked you specific questions which you by referring us to Reply #102 indicates you do not intend to answer. Simply posing questions, as you have been doing is not discussion.

I must therefore conclude since you will not answer direct questions that you are uninterested in actual discussion.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 24, 2004, 06:22:34 AM
AGRBear and Candice, your refusal to answer questions and explain your theories is frustrating and makes you look like the many other Romanov fakes out there. This is not the place to post old photos and think up airy fairy escape/survival theories that have no credibility whatsoever. Please either tell us your claimant stories or shut up and move on.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2004, 11:50:10 AM
Let patience grow in your gardens  ;D

Quote
Hi R

....how could yurvorsky forget how many bodies he burned only 5 years after the event. (in 1922 he states he only burned alexi)
amnesia would be stretching it....
 


Let's go back past the flury of impatience and answer jeremy's question,  which I think is a very good question.

How could Yurovsky forget how many bodies he burned in 1922?

And, I'll add to this:  How could Yurovsky forget where he buried the charred bones?  As evidence states in Fate of the Romanovs, the bones are not where he told us they were.

Pick one or add your own:  (1) Does this mean Yurovsky was telling us a fib? (2)  He knew but kept this one last secret to himself? or (3)  Or, he didn't know?

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 24, 2004, 01:02:31 PM
AGRBear,
What if he did not want to tell?. Unfortunately, he's not alive anymore, so all we can do is speculate, and I can give you a thousand reasons why he did not want to tell, but they will all be speculations. Do you know why?.. Because I have no hard evidence to back up what I am saying. They will all be probable reasons why he did what he did....
So, if all you have to share with us, are speculations about a probable plot to save the IF...we can be here chewing the same subject for the next 40 years....(without hard evidence)....

Best regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2004, 03:53:00 PM
You don't know and I don't know  ;D, so, let's ask questions and see what kind of answers we can find togather.  Sometimes,  it more important to take the journey into history than to reach our distination.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 24, 2004, 05:20:27 PM
H i Agrbear

Thanks for your input. though I believe all if the imperial family was shot at in the basement, i do like listening to all theories.
you know, several months ago i received an email from a man, claiming to be russian, who said that he heard as a child that "one of the daughters" survived, and lived her life out as the maid Demidova! Dying in the 1950s. I wrote him back requesting more information, but I have never heard from him again. (Of course)

I do remember a letter like that in the back of Edvard Radzinsky's "The Last Tsar" , written by the neice of the lady's maid that survived. (I'm sorry, I don't recall the correct spelling of the name)
Has someone with that theory posted on this website before?

ALso, Forum Administrator, my question about GD Marie seems to be getting buried. I don't want to get in the way of anyone having a good time, but I'm interested in hearing other theories and ideas on the topic. Should I move it? If so, where?

Also, does anyone know the name of the claiment who opened the "Anastasia Beauty Salon" ?

jeremy
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 24, 2004, 08:10:25 PM
Jeremy...Hello

    Well as far as Yurovsky's not mentioning how many bodies were burned in one of his stories (I don't remember that version) -- I must say again that I am familiar with two of the supposed three confessions and although I do not have them memorized -- I don't remember any significant difference between them. Most people when questioned do not perpetually give the precise  same answer -- unless they have had to memorize a story...thus to me, any  tiny differences in the narration read as true rather than false.

   About the "daughter" who claimed to be Demidova...well as Anna D. was a middle aged woman at least as old as Alexandra -- it would have been a trick for a young girl to fake a 20 year age difference...

   Good luck with your research, but I have to say that I don't believe that there were survivors, simply because the "survivor theories" don't make any sense.


R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 24, 2004, 08:23:21 PM
Candice...

Well, I actually looked at the picture you posted and at a handful of photos that I found of Anastasia...and I discovered certain similarities-- they were both bipedal mammals of the sort found within the last century.

We are still waiting for the rest of the information that you promised us...
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 24, 2004, 09:09:35 PM
rskkiya, as always you have an incredible sense of humour. Bipedal indeed!  ;D

As I recall, I haven't promissed anyone anything.  I have shared information as part of an ongoing discussion on a fascinating topic. The fact is,  I believe there were survivers and you don't!  Frankly I don't understand why you have such a strong and aggresive tone towards anyone who doesn't believe what you think.  

However, I have just posted the Forum Administrator a couple more sets of photos because as an artist I believe that pictures do tell a story.  So there are more bipedal mammals in photos to come, sorry ;D.


p.s. Provided FA decides otherwise.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 25, 2004, 04:28:53 PM
Candice

You have mentioned a conspiracy with the Orthodox  Church...remember...Don't be a tease.

Generally if you claim to have information, it is considered poor taste to refuse to share it ...if it is now no longer a valid claim -- then a simple retraction would be in order.

I am beginning to loose faith in you :-/
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 25, 2004, 05:09:42 PM
Dear FA: I see little point in your continuing to post charming pictures of Europeans if there are not going to be any explanations as to who they are supposed to be and what relationship those who want them posted have to said Europeans. You are welcome to do as you wish, of course, but those of us who are interested in the serious study of claimants are growing bored and frustrated with the lack of information. I for one am over my questions not being answered. I want to be neither cat nor mouse in this little game.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2004, 05:19:22 PM
Quote
...we can be here chewing the same subject for the next 40 years....(without hard evidence)....
Arturo Vega-Llausás


I've been doing so  longer than that already ;D and others since July 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2004, 05:51:27 PM
I must agree, Lisa, Arturo et al. This has become a tedious waste of time & imagination.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 25, 2004, 06:19:49 PM
FA, did you receive my last two e-mails with attachments? I will explain the photos once they are posted. I feel sure that they are self explanatory.  I'm sure you can see from the photos I sent you what my research is leading to so far.

Lisa, photos can lead one in a direction that can help with reseach.  By posting these images, they will I think raise more questions as to who could have helped in the rescue attempt and their position.

rskkiya, I have no reason at this point to retract what I have said about the Orthodox church, as we all know - right up till the last few days the nuns and a couple of priests visited the IF in captivity, that's what most of the books say.  I think it very possible that Ella conspired to help the IF and involved the priests with the rescue attempt.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 25, 2004, 06:48:57 PM
Candice: You are entitled to your opinion that the photos are self-explanatory. We, however, are entitled to have our questions answered IF you wish to engage in a meaningful discussion. To continue to play cat is ridiculous. I have asked the FA to cease posting pictures that do not contain an explanation because this is a pointless and frustrating exercise without information. For the record, the information we want to see is:

- Who is the subject of the photo?
- When and where was it taken?
- What is the story with the claimant?
- Do they have descendants?
- What is your relationship to the claimant?

If you are not prepared to answer straight forward questions, I respectfully request you cease posting, at least on this topic area.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 25, 2004, 07:26:14 PM
I did receive your pictures. Today has been busy with other stuff. I confess that I agree with Lisa D on this issue.  IF you will send me the rest of the information to accompany your photos, I will post them. Photos alone mean nothing, without your evidence to give them credence.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 09:59:45 AM
While they work on the to be or not to be photographs,  let me revert back to my earlier question which has been ignored: " What if Marie and her soldier friend left  and did not return on the day of her birthday?  From what I understand from the other threads, Marie had felt rejected by her family and the others.  And,  she had a good relationship with the guards.  Perhaps it was the five guards whose bodies were later discovered by the Four Brother's Mine, who had helped Marie and the soldier escape...  "

Is there any evidence that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after her birthday?

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: RobMoshein on July 26, 2004, 10:08:28 AM
Every time I see "what if", I can only think of Joan Crawford's response..."but ya ARE in that wheelchair, Blanche, but ya ARE...."
Speculation is nothing more than that.  There is far more evidence to support all of them being in the house and being shot. The lack of evidence cannot logically itself be construed as EVIDENCE....which is all such supposition is.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 26, 2004, 10:17:08 AM
I don't have a copy in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that the Empress mentions Marie in her diary more than once after her birthday, including just a day or two before the 16th.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2004, 10:27:13 AM
THANK YOU Dashkova, of course...
July 15, 1918
"Monday, greyish morning. Later sunshine. Lunched on the couch in the big room as women came to clean the floors, then lay on my bed again and read with Maria..." Diary of Alexandra Feodrovna.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please"
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 11:09:37 AM
There were a few interesting results from the time of Marie's birthday, 27 June,  to about the 3 of July, according to King and Wilson in their book Fate of the Romanovs.

Since Marie was found  [in or out of the Ipatiev House], everthing changed for the family and for the guards. p. 246: "This obviously followed from what happened, because her mother and eldest sister treated her as if she didn't belong, like an outcast."  A quote from Yurovsky.  

p. 247:  "After June 27 Nicholas did not write again in his diary for the next six days..."

And what happen to the young guard who is said to have been with Marie: p. 247:  "...Skorokhodov...was removed from the Ipatiev House on the evening of June 27...."  It is said he was taken to Ekaterinburg City Prision and then there is no farther evidence of him being alive or dead after this point in time.

On p.. 245 they write that Sidorov entries in the guard book are absent from 27 June to 3 July....  On the 4th the duty book was turned over to Yurovsky and Nikulin [p. 246]

p. 249 they tell us that the local newspaper wrote:  "Romanovs and his relatives will not escape the hour of the People's Court."

p. 250 they tell us that the Hotel Amerika held a meeting which included Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, Didkovsky, Safarov, Chukazev, Ermakov, Voikov, Yurovsky, Katanov, Lepa and Myasnikov.

Are there any remarks about Marie between 27 June and 3 July?

AGRBear  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2004, 11:14:20 AM
Are there any entried (sic) about Marie between 27 June and 3 July?
6/29, 7/1, 7/3
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 26, 2004, 02:26:28 PM
Quote
Every time I see "what if", I can only think of Joan Crawford's response..."but ya ARE in that wheelchair, Blanche, but ya ARE...."


I think It was Betty Davis' response to Joan Crawford, on "Whatever happened to baby Jane", wasn't it?...

Best

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2004, 02:28:12 PM
You are correct...
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Janet_W. on July 26, 2004, 03:04:25 PM
That would be Bette.

And yes, Blanche (as played by Joan) would never ever use "ya" for "you" . . . too refined, don't you know.  ;)

BTW, while it conceivably might be more important to journey into history rather than to reach one's distination (sic), the pleasure of that journey largely depends on the person who is along for the ride.

And after awhile, when the journey ceases to feature any sort of substantial information, it becomes less history and more fantasy, fueled by a high level of narcisisism.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 06:32:39 PM
There are remarks with Marie's name in Alexandra's diary, which means she was absolutely, possitively and without a doubt in the Ipatiev House on the 3/16 July up to 10:00 in the evening.  ;D

I guess,  there is no room left for farther questions until the clock strikes ten.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on July 26, 2004, 07:10:20 PM
Quote
There are entries with Marie's name in Alexandra's diary, which means she was absolutely, possitively and without a doubt in the Ipatiev House on the 3/16 July up to 10:00 in the evening.  ;D

I guess,  there is no room left for farther questions until the clock strikes ten.

AGRBear



Ok, "Ms. Bear," you've once again posted (this time in two threads) more rather cynical remarks concerning the last days in the Ipatiev house and what followed, but once again vague.  You seem to want others to "bite," but then you change the subject, never really stating your beliefs or how you know what happened.

You enjoy this game, no?  Do you also see it is rather silly?

What is finally your point?

Oh, perhaps more patience is required in others' gardens?

At this point, I suspect yours is choked with weeds.
Your "must have patience," cloak and dagger is SO reminicent of someone who used to post here regularly.

Someone told me you are acquainted with this person's claim. I suppose you wish to be somehow associated with this person (you know who ;) ).  If not, you should make your case clear, or someone else will be obliged to do so for you.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Vera_Figner on July 26, 2004, 07:44:09 PM
Maybe this will help clarify a few things.  Here is a copy of an IM I received from AGRBear, when I messaged her about "Rodger" sending her to post on a particular thread (Maybe she will elaborate):

_______________________________

AGRBear
YaBB Full Member




The road to truth is the best one to travel.

   

Posts: 185
 Re: "Rodger" sent you? Are you *serious*? on: Jul 2nd, 2004, 5:00am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am aware of Rodger's claims.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 26, 2004, 07:58:47 PM
FA, the photos are of Nicholas Romanov and Yurovsky. I'd like you to help me with the photo of who I think is Nicholas R and Yurovsky in a group posing for the photograph.  I feel  they're making a statement by posing together. All the photos were taken at the turn of the century and are genuine. They are post cards, some marked with a Military stamp on the reverse also the dates are between 1918/19.

Lisa, sorry but my source does not want to be identified.  This is a forum for discussion with anonimous members and guests. I respect that. Please, I'm not playing a cat and mouse game.  I'm searching for more information. Hopefully you can help.  Thank you.

Regards,

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 08:43:22 PM
Quote
Maybe this will help clarify a few things.  Here is a copy of an IM I received from AGRBear, when I messaged her about "Rodger" sending her to post on a particular thread (Maybe she will elaborate):
_______________________________

AGRBear
YaBB Full Member
The road to truth is the best one to travel.

Posts: 185
  Re: "Rodger" sent you? Are you *serious*? on: Jul 2nd, 2004, 5:00am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am aware of Rodger's claims.
 
AGRBear  
 


Quote
...I can check them. Agr, Candice, Rodger are all indeed different people (unless someone has a private jet!!)


Like the rest of you,  I read Rodgers posting before he deleted them.    If I remember correctly he was claiming relationship to the Romanovs through DNA.

Otherwise,  I know nothing more about him/her/they....

AGRBear




Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Vera_Figner on July 26, 2004, 08:53:19 PM
Aside from harping incessantly on the recently released Stanford "study" (he is one of the authors) none of Rodger's posts stated he had a direct claim.

However, he does actually make such a claim, but not so openly.  It was he who poked fun at other posters for having claims, in some cases even encouraging such claimants to get over it and look for their family member's true story.  It was he who started the "joke claimants" thread.

I've got copies of the deleted posts to back this up.

He never, ever came out and said he had a claim.
Not here, anyway.
He reveals this privately, and according to your message, you know more than you're telling.

Unless you were guessing.
In which case, brilliant guess!
I don't know -- for myself, I am not convinced.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 09:10:56 PM
If I had spoken to Rodger privately,  and he had told me about his relationship privately,  I would not have mentioned it in my post.  Evidently,  I must have read between the lines without realizing it.  What I voiced was the impressions his posts had given me.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 26, 2004, 09:42:05 PM
People.

    AGRBear's refusal to answer even basic questions and her continued claims to a secret history-- has worn my patience to the quick!
    No doubt there are many charitable people here who will be willing to play games with her, but I have utterely despaired of ever getting anything honest or rational out of her ...

Agrbear there is a homey yankee phrase that you might know... "fish or cut bait."

Tell us the truth.

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 27, 2004, 10:01:32 AM
Candice
Your pictures look NOTHING like "Nicholas Romanov" who I assume you mean to be Nicholas II. I will not post them, as without reasonable documentary evidence to support your assertion (beyond a claimed resemblance, which I fail to see utterly) this is more "what if"...
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 10:47:07 AM
I agree with Rskkiya. I have not gotten any answer from AGRBear whatsoever, besides a P.S. comment to check her reply #102, and to be honest I am just tired of this "Cat & Mouse" game.
I asume the reason she cannot give a direct answer, is because she does not know the answer, and in the more simple questions, like her identity, she just refuses to answer, all she knows is "What if"..Well AGRBear, let me put it in terms that are easilly understood by you....

-What if you tell us who you are and what your agenda is?


Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 01:47:37 PM
Oh, yes Indeed, others were FAR more entertaining... The diference is that they NEVER backed up on all the nonsense  they said.
Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about our "Dear" Bear woman.  I cannot help it, but I  strongly feel she is  trying to  gather  as much nonsense as she can to back up a theory  that can justify Rodger's claim with all these "What If's", Claiming she knows what happened  the night the RF was murdered, and then backing up when  any of her "Nonsense theories based on a what if"  fall to the ground as soon as  REAL FACTS & COMMON SENSE are brought up. I am just tired of this "circus", and I will not take for serious any of her fantasy fuelled "What if" stories....  and that explanation about "reading between the lines" and guessing Rodger's claim...... Honey... I do not think you are smart enough for that....So, unless AGRBear comes out with a better explanation than a 5 year old kid would give about her relationship with Rodger, I will not take her seriously...... but of course... that is not going to happen, for that explanation will never come...... Right now, AGRBear  has chocolate all over her face,  but she says she never touched the cake.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2004, 02:33:43 PM
Quote
....  and that explanation about "reading between the lines" and guessing Rodger's claim...... Honey... I do not think you are smart enough for that.... Right now, AGRBear  has chocolate all over her face,  but she says she never touched the cake.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás


I do like chocolate, which you have said is all over my face.  There is only one problem,  it's not true,  so, let me put my paw into the yummy sweet truth which is on my face, I must admit.

Let me know when you'd like to join me.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 02:53:26 PM
Join you where??....I am all ears...
First, what is not true?..

AGRBear,
If you  take a minute to read your posting, (I know it might be  real hard and difficult for you), you may notice, it doesn't say ANYTHING !!!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 04:45:24 PM
AGRBear,
It is interesting how you chose to talk about the "chocolate" on your face, rather than explaining your relationship with Rodger.
With your silence regarding that subject, you are confirming that there is a conection indeed between Rodger and you.. So, now that we (you and I) have established that, let's talk about your identity.

I was told you were Shay McNeal... Is this true??

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 27, 2004, 05:31:25 PM
FA, how awful, sorry, I do not mean the Tsar Nicholas Romanov.  The photos are very clear I mean Nicholas Nicholaevitch Romanov.  Please, the photo I used is from the book 'The Hunt for the Czar' the author mentions him as Nicholas Romanov I made that mistake.  I am specifically referring to Nicholas Nicholaevitch Romanov.  





Quote
Candice
Your pictures look NOTHING like "Nicholas Romanov" who I assume you mean to be Nicholas II. I will not post them, as without reasonable documentary evidence to support your assertion (beyond a claimed resemblance, which I fail to see utterly) this is more "what if"...
FA

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on July 27, 2004, 05:34:41 PM
I've followed this thread with great interest. But now Valmont is mentioning the name Shay Mcneal, It's getting hot.

Candice, did you want to post photo's of Nicholas II meaning he'd survived??.

I stay tuned on this.

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on July 27, 2004, 05:37:26 PM
Candice,

Thanks for clearing this up.

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 27, 2004, 05:47:02 PM
Anna, no I do not believe that Nicholas II survived.  I think he did die in Ekaterinburg along with his wife.  However, I believe that some members did survive.

The photos I posted to Forum Administrator were of Nicholas Nicholaevitch and Yurovsky. I know the photos would be very interesting and would generate quite a discussion as to the people that might have rescued some of the members of the IF. I guess you will probably not see them as FA is determined not to share my photos.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 05:57:57 PM

Anna,
Why is this getting hot?. It is a valid question. I just want to know, if this is true. That is all.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2004, 06:06:01 PM
Quote
AGRBear,
 It is interesting how you chose to talk about the "chocolate" on your face, rather than explaining your relationship with Rodger.
With your silence regarding that subject, you are confirming that there is a conection indeed between Rodger and you.. So, now that we (you and I) have established that, let's talk about your identity.

I was told you were Shay McNeal... Is this true??

Arturo Vega-Llausás


Jumping crickets,  how does such a rumor spread?  No,  I am not Shay McNeal.

And,  I don't know how many more times I have to say,  I am not Rodger.  I do not know Rodger.  I have never talked to this person off line.  I am not Candice.  I am not flying through a fantasy world looking for some some make-believe characters.  I probably have more books in my library than twenty of you put togather.  And,  I have no intentions of giving you my real name.  So,  let's get back to the subject.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Valmont on July 27, 2004, 06:29:11 PM
AGRBear,

When did I tell you I was going to play the game under your rules?

Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on July 27, 2004, 06:47:08 PM
ok. First, I'm going to ask everyone to please stop personal sniping, and discuss facts pure and simple. I can confirm that AGR is not Rodger nor Candice. She posts from Wisconsin.
Candice. I will post your photos in the morning provided you fully explain your theory of how they show "survival" and of whom...I think this is fair.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on July 27, 2004, 07:23:48 PM
Valmont,


To answer you're question : I thought the same. ;)

Anna

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 27, 2004, 07:57:30 PM
AGrBear, what makes you think you have more books than any of us ? The last time I inventoried my collection, which was about 7-8 years ago, I had close to 500 volumes in my US library, we have not counted the England library in so long I can't even guess. Maybe 2-3 hundred ??  In any case, my collection is not large compared to others I have seen. As it is generally just volumes in English.
Candice, what makes the photos from Hunt For The Tsar so special?  The book has long been discredited & the photos it contains are not unique.
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 08:57:32 PM
Dear Mr. Hall,

    Agrbear will no doubt not answer your perfectly rational request, as she has avoided all questions that would oblige her to behave in a sensible manner...I would wager that she will simply post something completely unrelated...but I don't bet!
    In the spirit of remaining on topic... I would like to ask if anyone here is familiar with a woman who claimed to be the secret daughter of Fransica/Anna and Prince Rudolf (?)..Ananstasia Kalaminsky (sic) Romanoff ...I think that she was mentioned in "The Romanovs The Final Chapter"...And while I am certain that she was as mad as any bedbug(and not related to anyone involved)  I was curious if anyone knows if she was still alive...

These escape/capture/ attempted murder/fleeing/ only to be recaptured and buried elsewhere stories are very tiresome and quite redundant! :P

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 27, 2004, 09:51:51 PM
Right-o then, on to the actual topic here.
I know of the 2 families claiming to be descendants of Alexei, seperate Alexeis, by the way,  but am not aware of anyone else running around lately with any claims.
There was a brief flurry of them in Russia a few years back, but they faded away after their 15mins. Anyone know of someone else?
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 10:14:19 PM
Mr. Hall

Do you know of the claims of Alexie Tanneeyev (Sic)Romanov...I heard that his widow claimed thta he was Alexie, and wanted him exhumed for DNA testing.

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 28, 2004, 01:06:18 AM
Alexis claimants:

Heino Tammet-Romanov - Vancouver, BC
Scotsdale Alexis
Vasilli Filatov
"Michael Grey's" father?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on July 28, 2004, 02:43:57 AM
Quote
I am specifically referring to Nicholas Nicholaevitch Romanov.
Quote


Nikolai Nikolaevich 1831-1891
Nikolai Nikolaevich 1856-1929

??? ??? ???
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 28, 2004, 11:22:53 AM
Olga, I made referece to Nikolai Nikolaevich 1856-1929.

Candice



Quote
I am specifically referring to Nicholas Nicholaevitch Romanov.Nikolai Nikolaevich 1831-1891
Nikolai Nikolaevich 1856-1929

 ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 28, 2004, 11:32:48 AM
Robert, I only refer to one photo the one of Nikolas Nikolaevich.

Why can't we trust the photos in 'The Hunt for the Czar' have they been manipulated?  If so, would you have a photo of Nikolas Nikolaevich 1856 - 1929 that hasn't been touched?

I found the 'The Hunt for the Czar' a very interesting book. I think most of the books written have some fragment of truth in them.  I agree not to believe everything that is written especially when it is only ear say and most of it is speculation not actual proof.

Candice


Quote
AGrBear, what makes you think you have more books than any of us ? The last time I inventoried my collection, which was about 7-8 years ago, I had close to 500 volumes in my US library, we have not counted the England library in so long I can't even guess. Maybe 2-3 hundred ??  In any case, my collection is not large compared to others I have seen. As it is generally just volumes in English.
Candice, what makes the photos from Hunt For The Tsar so special?  The book has long been discredited & the photos it contains are not unique.
Robert

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 28, 2004, 11:41:01 AM
Forum Admin, thank you for deciding to post them. However, please take under consideration the time difference and when I am able to reply.  So, if I haven't responded it doesn't mean that I won't.  I will try to  reply to the questions as best I can.


Quote
ok. First, I'm going to ask everyone to please stop personal sniping, and discuss facts pure and simple. I can confirm that AGR is not Rodger nor Candice. She posts from Wisconsin.
Candice. I will post your photos in the morning provided you fully explain your theory of how they show "survival" and of whom...I think this is fair.
FA

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2004, 03:16:20 PM
It appears that Hall and I keep book stores in business.   However, I am sure that the average family library doesn't have all these books, and, I should have said "average family", instead I said "20".   Since many of us posting on this forum have more interest in the Romanovs, other royal families and history,  we are not on the "average" rung of the ladder that show percentages.

Did not mean to step on Hall's toes or anyone elses  :-/

So,  tell me more about these claimants.  I'm all eyes ::)

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2004, 03:59:06 PM
I was fortunate when I started collecting books on royalty, some time in the 60's. A dear friend turned me on to used book stores and I cleaned them out for practically nothing.  I continue to buy whatever comes out not, but not aboust just anybody anmore.  Spending half the year in England for so long has helped in finding such books greatly.
I will admit that now they are burdensome and I really do need to cull the library of entire sections.  The Romanovs will NOT be one of them however.
In any case. I keep pretty up-to-date on the latest "proof & theories" stuff.  And Guy Richards has even distanced himslef some time ago from "Hunt..."
Of course one is entitled to believe anything one wishes.
I prefer a more logical, pragmatic outlook on history.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremy_galeaz on July 28, 2004, 05:21:50 PM
Hi everyone,

THank God this forum is getting back on track.

I'm sorry to sign in as a guest, having trouble clocking on.


Hi R.

Just to clear up a misunderstanding. When I posted my question earlier, I wasn't saying I believed the story, nor was I trying to promote it as a theory. I have my own theory and am willing to leave it at the door in order to keep this discussion group  in the right direction.
I was just curious if anyone else had heard this story about this "pretender"?

THanks for your time

Jeremy
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2004, 06:36:34 PM
Hello again !
SAorry, I got distracted on my own last posting !
Anyway, Jeremy, the maid Demidova story has been mentioned & discredited in several works I think.
As for Anastia's Beauty Salon- which one ? I have seen several over the years. None that I know of claimed any real connection to the Romanovs though. I think the idea just conjured up visions of glamour, which after all, is what those places are all about. The one that came closest I think was one I ran accross in Hollywood [where else] in the late 60's. Very 1950's "been around" look about it, with faded crowns on the signboard & window.
Over the years I have met a lot of people who have made ssome veiled, obscure claim at a long, lost family connection, usuall the tale got more detailed the more cocktails were consumed.  None were ever worthy of serious consideration.
During that Polish fellow's heyday, didn't "they" have a family reunion with Tatiana & Marie? as he rdognozed the Chicago Anastasia?  I also recall they all later denounced each other. Did none of them leave  falg-waving descendants ? Anna Anderson still has her  "believers" notably the most credible Peter Kurth.
While that English Alexei descendant is so off-the-wall it is tragicallt laughable, Kendrick's case for the Vancouver Alexei is a pretty damn good argument, almost as good as Peter's for Anna.
A couple of years ago, while in Eastern Europe, I heard of  these young girls, young women, whatever who were claiming to be the great-great grand daughters of one of the GDs.  I do not recall which one, but definitely not Anastasia. Not so sure they were very clear on it either. I did not speak what they wre speaking & was reliant on a friend to translate & he was not clear on what they were saying. Nor was he interested. I guess their story never got very far. Aspiring rock stars I seem to recall.
And, to top off my latest count, some American bimbo was on a British talk show last Jan. I think it was. In the course of her plugging what cheap B movie it was she was in, she tossed off a claim to being "related to the "lost Romanovs" " whatever that was supposed to mean. I didn't know who she was, but not a very impressive Hollywood "name" I gather.
{even less impressive- I never saw her movie advertised either].
I guess now-a-days, someone with a claim would have to pass dna tests or no publisher would take them so the "survivor" business is left pretty empty.
Cheers
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on July 28, 2004, 08:25:39 PM
[quote/Robert] American bimbo [quote/Robert]

Hey I'm American!!   :D  (I know you mean no disrespect, I'm just teasing   ;D )
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on July 28, 2004, 08:30:45 PM
I don't know why my smilies weren't working on that last post  ???  ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2004, 08:50:59 PM
Well, I'm America/British & I meant the stereotypical Hollywood B actress, brainless ,bleached, etc. "bimbo".

However, amongst the "claimants" I was remined of Mike Romanoff [sic] who never actually "claimed" to be a real Romanov, but did not discourage the rumors, as it helped his restaurant business in Hollywood. A grand  "Hollywood classy" place who's heyday is long gone.
And most, if not all the staff that were left behind in Tobolsk survived & were accounted for. Does anyone know if any of their descendants are visible? That is currently producing memoirs pr interviews ??

Cheers
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 29, 2004, 12:55:03 AM
Regarding the B movie actress, this is probably Stephanie Romanov, who is something of a bimbo and who claims to be "one of the lost Romanovs". I asked a granddaughter of Prince Vasili what part of the family she is from. I was told with a wink - from a very distant branch - meaning, she is not related.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 29, 2004, 01:30:25 PM
Thanks, Lisa. I believe you could be very well correct. I am not too au currant on pop on current pop culture but have noticed that name here & there. Wondered who she was.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 29, 2004, 04:06:05 PM
Stephanie Romanov was on the t.v. series "Angel", the spinoff of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". I worked on "Angel" a couple of times as an extra when I first moved out to L.A. Stephanie Romanov was in the episodes I worked on, but I never spoke with her personally though.
(Speaking of Hollywood, I do have information on the recent death of the son of a "maid of honor" to the Empress Alexandra. He came to Hollywood and had a respectable career as a charector actor. A bit of information on him can be found at IMDB.COM, is stage name was Alex Rodine. I work with his daughter, and she is a good friend of mine. But I'm not sure where I should put this on the forum?)

Hi Mr. Hall

I did find that reference to the "Anastasia Beauty Salon", it's in the book "The Great Pretenders"< written by a Professer from Wales. I'll write to him and see if I can get more information.
Also, you wouldn't happen to remember the names of those books with reference to the Demidova story, would you?

my best
Jeremy


 
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 29, 2004, 06:49:19 PM
Jeremy
I will check, I have a vague idea but it may a bit of time to get to them.
Best,
Robert
Oh, where is the Anastasia salon you are refering to ?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 29, 2004, 08:13:54 PM
Dear Mr Hall...

It seems that I have won my wager ( had I placed a bet!  ;)) For it appears that NO answers have been forthcoming...Only more questions!

R.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 29, 2004, 08:32:10 PM
Jeremy, me again
Most of my Romanov books are in stacks waiting to be inventoried but one  close to the surface of the piles is Radzinsky[THE LAST TSAR, he deals with Demidova on pgs 434-35. I just scanns the index so not sure how much he gets into it.
ROYALTY DIGEST also had an article I think some time ago. I do not have the indexes though, so it takes some time go through all those issues.
a quick look in Bookfinders shows quite a few titles The GREAT PRETENDERS, which one are you referring to? I have one, but it is in the London library, well actually in a box in storage & I have asked my friend there to dig it out at his convienence to see which author. I will not be back until Nov. to find it myself.
Another book I HAD, ALIVE AGAIN ? by Polinskii [not too sure about that spelling] Is rather obscure. I gather it was privately printed [#453 of 1000]. It has the feel of a master's thesis or some sort of PhD work.  The references & notes  seem to take more pages than the actual text. It came out around the same time as NICHOLAS & ALEXANDRA in Britain.  It is a work devoted entirely to the various claimants know at that time of anyone to do with the Romanovs.  It is also an extremely tedious read. I am not sure, but I think I sold it along with a lot of other volumes in London last year. I think I can get in contact with the buyer if anyone is interested in it though.  That will take time.
I'll post more as I come upon it.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 29, 2004, 08:37:31 PM
There is a fine book called either "Looking for Anastasia" or "The Quest for Anastasia" (so sorry)- I lent the book out over a year ago and never got it back  >:(--but it's fairly up to date and a very good read!

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 29, 2004, 08:55:30 PM
"Quest" by Klier perhaps?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 29, 2004, 09:00:46 PM
Yes! Thats the one!

Ta ever so!

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Alexa on July 30, 2004, 11:11:14 AM
I'll second rskkiya's recommendation of "The Quest for Anastasia."  I'm reading it for the second time, and it's just as good the second time around.

Alexa
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on July 30, 2004, 06:23:07 PM
I liked chapter 9 of 'The quest for Anastasia' where the DNA is explained. It also clearly describes how Anna Anderson was a fraud.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on July 30, 2004, 07:03:16 PM
"The Quest for Anastasia."I've heard of this book but have never read it.I'll have to add this book to my reading list as well.This is why I love this forum,you learn such wonderful things from some really great people. :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 31, 2004, 08:55:32 AM
Merrique,
I recommend this book very highly and it ought to be in any well stocked Library.
You might also look for Anastasia Dead or Alive from Nova Home Videos - its also quite good and truly entertaining.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 31, 2004, 11:17:21 AM
I am trying to remember "Dead or Alive", what made it so different than the other tv videos? I do not normally keep videos, so I can't usually distinquish one from another.
I had a wonderful video on thr Romanov-Iran connection, but that was a comedy of errors.  As I do not understand a word of Farsi. I just remember the very clear dramatisations as well as rare documentary pictures. It is probably still available at Iranian book/video stores even though it was pre-revolution.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on July 31, 2004, 02:46:15 PM
Mr. Hall-Hello!

Anastasia Dead or Alive was an hour long stientific study of the claims of Anna Anderson and the DNA evidence- produced by Nova, a series on the american Public Broadcasting Station ...copies are available from station WGBH in Boston on the net. Its very good-- but sadly Mr. Peter Kurth comes off looking a bit.... ummmm.... fanatical.

I do recommend it .

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 31, 2004, 05:00:04 PM
I remember it now. And Peter Kurth is rather fanatical, at least about Anastasia.  Otherwise, a quite charming fellow.
BTW, that Romanov Iranian video was produced at the time of the Shah's big party at Presepolis, & supposedly showed how some of the family escaped thru Persia/Iran. It was lavishly produced. But, by the time I matched up someone to translate it witrh someone who had an all region video player I had rather lost interest in it. Still floating around somewhere in London I think.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 01, 2004, 09:51:14 PM
Candice...

What has happened to the evidence that you were going to show us all about the secrets of the Last Romanovs and the Orthodox Church?
HMMMM? ;D

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 02, 2004, 10:10:34 AM
I wrote her and told her that she had to accompany her photos with details of what they were supposed to "prove"...that was days ago, and so far no answers. They will not be posted until she provides the details.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 02, 2004, 03:37:31 PM
Thank you for the quick response.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 02, 2004, 03:39:26 PM
Hi everyone,

Please, let's not start this again? It's silly. The forum adminstrator should have the last word on the subject.

Hi Mr. Hall,

The full title is "The Great Pretenders: True stories behind famous historical myths (or legends)" and the name of the author is Jan Bondeson.

Yes, I would be interested in "Alive Again," as well as the Royal Digest if the buyer is interested in making any copies. Thank you very much for your time and effort.

Also, I don't know if anyone has read "The Lost King of France: A true story of revolution, revenge and DNA" by Deborah Cadbury, but it's a quite interesting related topic. You may find some familiar charectors

My best
Jeremy  

 
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 02, 2004, 03:45:34 PM
Sorry Jeremy? I didn't understand your last post...?

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 02, 2004, 04:29:54 PM
A very good book indeed, Jeremy. A good read for the "Anastasia  chasers".
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 02, 2004, 06:38:01 PM
FA, you said you could not post them because I sent them to you as attachments and not jpg.  I explained to you that I couldn't send them to you as jpg as because my computer crashes.  I did give you an explanation regarding the photos. The photos are of Yurovsky and Nicholas Nicholaevitch Romanov.

My source has provided these photos and I wanted to share them with you as a form of discussion.  The people in the photos seem to be making a statement.  

FA, the first photo I sent you of my mystery person, I sent it as an attachment and you were able to post it. Can you not post these other images I have e-mailed to you.  

Regards,
Candice




Quote
I wrote her and told her that she had to accompany her photos with details of what they were supposed to "prove"...that was days ago, and so far no answers. They will not be posted until she provides the details.
FA

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 02, 2004, 06:48:13 PM
rskkiya, I think we have crossed wires here.  I didn't promise any information on secrets of the Last Romanovs.  I did say that in my opinion the church must have been involved in the rescue plot.  But ofcourse, you don't believe that there was a plot to rescue the IF.

Regards

Candice






Quote
Candice...

What has happened to the evidence that you were going to show us all about the secrets of the Last Romanovs and the Orthodox Church?
HMMMM? ;D

R.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 02, 2004, 06:52:35 PM
Candice-
I think we all believe there were plenty of plots. That none of them were sincere [i.e. fraudulent] or successful is what the consesus seems to be.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 02, 2004, 08:00:09 PM
Robert, I believe there was a rescue attempt and it was only half successful.  

Candice

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on August 02, 2004, 08:25:02 PM
Since you believe that part of the rescue was successful, why don't you spell out what you think happened.  What was the scenario?  How did it happen?  Just believing, "just because", or having a feeling isn't very impressive.

I would be curious to know what you think played out, including names, places, etc.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 02, 2004, 08:30:43 PM
OK- "PLOTS TO RESCUE", Better ?
"half successful ???One either achieves one's goal=success or doesn't= not successful.
Sort of like half winning here.
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Douglas on August 02, 2004, 09:33:37 PM
Oh, I get it, Candice.  The 'rescue attempt' was half successful.  That means that their clothes were rescued but that the people that once  wore them were somehow missing.  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 02, 2004, 11:53:22 PM
Candice: you really must stop this. I realize your source doesn't want to be named. Fine. That does not stop you from answering the questions that are posed here! You can tell the story up to the point of present day descendants who wish to remain unnamed. None of this would stop you from answering questions!

Once again, FA, I implore you to put a stop to this unless the poster is going to step up to the plate with information. Period.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 03, 2004, 09:28:42 AM
FA
I must second LisaD.'s request. This sort of thing is not only tiresome, such teasing suggestions as "I know something that you don't know - but I wont tell you" are insulting and annoying.
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 03, 2004, 11:10:29 AM
I thought I had made it clear to Candice that she had to "step up to the plate" and answer the questions, from what I had written above. So, as I have done with all those who wish to put forth "theories": "Show us the evidence", with specifics, not "innuendo", hearsay, or unidentified "witnesses, experts, lab tests, space aliens" etc etc.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 03, 2004, 12:21:08 PM
Ok, sorry, I don't want to stir you up.  I can name several books that believe what I believe.  'The Hunt for the Czar', 'The Quest for Anastasia', 'The Romanov Conspirasy', 'The Romanovs', 'The file on the Tsar', 'The Plots to Rescue the Tsar' these are just a few books that I've read that believe that at least two of the children did escape. In otherword there is the possibility that they were rescued.  So why can't I stress that I believe that too.  

IF/children were transported to French North Africa, the article from the Telegraph is correct. They then went to Sicily, Malta, and North America.  All this could only be possible with the help of Yakov Yurovsky, Nicholas Nicholeavitch, Michael Michaeleavitch, the Orthodox priests and Nuns that  were working with GD Ella to supply food to the family along with the help of some of the Royal families of Europe.  

Somewhere I read that MM did attempt a rescue and to his dissappointment wasn't successful.  Was it possible that he was dissappointed because he was only able to rescue some not all?

My opinion and research does not mean to affend anyone.  I find this Forum informative and interesting because it is open for discussion and debate.


Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on August 04, 2004, 04:48:10 PM
Oh Candice, look at the books you mention. Plots to rescue the Tsar - didn't think much of it... The Hunt for the Tsar ... These are the ones with wild speculation and what if... Where's the real proof?

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on August 04, 2004, 06:03:26 PM
Quote
Oh Candice, look at the books you mention. Plots to rescue the Tsar - didn't think much of it... The Hunt for the Tsar ... These are the ones with wild speculation and what if... Where's the real proof.


I don't think there is any proof.It's all just a bunch of "what if's" with no prrof to back it up.I'm just sick and tired of hearing it.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2004, 08:33:49 PM
This is twilight zone [no caps intentional] material.
Forget it.
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 05, 2004, 12:12:10 AM
Quote
Ok, sorry, I don't want to stir you up.  I can name several books that believe what I believe.  'The Hunt for the Czar', 'The Quest for Anastasia', 'The Romanov Conspirasy', 'The Romanovs', 'The file on the Tsar', 'The Plots to Rescue the Tsar' these are just a few books that I've read that believe that at least two of the children did escape. In otherword there is the possibility that they were rescued.  So why can't I stress that I believe that too.  

IF/children were transported to French North Africa, the article from the Telegraph is correct. They then went to Sicily, Malta, and North America.  All this could only be possible with the help of Yakov Yurovsky, Nicholas Nicholeavitch, Michael Michaeleavitch, the Orthodox priests and Nuns that  were working with GD Ella to supply food to the family along with the help of some of the Royal families of Europe.  

Somewhere I read that MM did attempt a rescue and to his dissappointment wasn't successful.  Was it possible that he was dissappointed because he was only able to rescue some not all?

My opinion and research does not mean to affend anyone.  I find this Forum informative and interesting because it is open for discussion and debate.




First of all - belief is a matter of religions or philosophies. The books you mention don't "all believe two Romanovs escaped". At least two of them are based on a work of fiction - no messy facts involved! The others simply state the fact that 2 corpses are missing. Two missing corpses do not equal two escaped Romanovs!

Second, there is a vast difference between probability and possibility - but you seem confused that these are the same thing. They're not. It is certainly possible there was a rescue or an escape but it's very unlikely and highly improbable. Yet, you insist that what was possible was also probable. No, sorry.

Third, there is absolutely no evidence that the individuals you mention helped the IF escape from Russia. And, you're not even clear about how they are supposed to have hot footed it out of Russia. Yurovsky remained a faithful Chekist his entire life, so please, don't deprive the man of the honor he sought so valiently. At the time of the executions, Nicholas Nicholievich was trying to stay alive in the Crimea. He had no opportunity to rescue anyone, not even himself!

Fourth, if anyone had been rescued by Miche-Miche or anyone else, I'm sure they'd have at least told their families.

Your opinions are most welcome, but please stick to the truth or a close proximity to it.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 04:59:13 AM
anna, what makes you think that the information you believe and presumably the books you favour are any more credible?  I think they are all founded on speculation.  What a bunch of drunken murderous guards and the Russian authorities reported then...doesn't make it any more full proof or credible, they can't even find the true remains nor determine the right DNA. What is speculation and what is proof? What proof!  In my opinion it is all speculation!




Quote
Oh Candice, look at the books you mention. Plots to rescue the Tsar - didn't think much of it... The Hunt for the Tsar ... These are the ones with wild speculation and what if... Where's the real proof?

Anna

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 05:30:31 AM
Lisa, I note your comments and thank you :)

You mentioned NN being in the crimea, do you have any proof of that.  Is there any documented evidence? As for Yurovsky, you can help people and still be a faithful Chekist.  May be the man had principles?  

I read in one of the books that Mich-Mich did plot a rescue but he was dissappointed that it failed and because of his failure he returned to Norway. Why would he return to Norway?  Will look for the book.

Regards




Quote

First of all - belief is a matter of religions or philosophies. The books you mention don't "all believe two Romanovs escaped". At least two of them are based on a work of fiction - no messy facts involved! The others simply state the fact that 2 corpses are missing. Two missing corpses do not equal two escaped Romanovs!

Second, there is a vast difference between probability and possibility - but you seem confused that these are the same thing. They're not. It is certainly possible there was a rescue or an escape but it's very unlikely and highly improbable. Yet, you insist that what was possible was also probable. No, sorry.

Third, there is absolutely no evidence that the individuals you mention helped the IF escape from Russia. And, you're not even clear about how they are supposed to have hot footed it out of Russia. Yurovsky remained a faithful Chekist his entire life, so please, don't deprive the man of the honor he sought so valiently. At the time of the executions, Nicholas Nicholievich was trying to stay alive in the Crimea. He had no opportunity to rescue anyone, not even himself!

Fourth, if anyone had been rescued by Miche-Miche or anyone else, I'm sure they'd have at least told their families.

Your opinions are most welcome, but please stick to the truth or a close proximity to it.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 05:39:27 AM
Robert, yes.....you could say, was the cup half full  or was haft empty? I will give it my best shot to find out. Research is always very challenging!



Quote
OK- "PLOTS TO RESCUE", Better ?
"half successful ???One either achieves one's goal=success or doesn't= not successful.
Sort of like half winning here.
Robert

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 05:41:15 AM
Robert, yes.....you could say -  was the cup half full  or was it half empty? I will give it my best shot to find out. Research is as always very challenging and time consuming!

Regards  :)


Quote
OK- "PLOTS TO RESCUE", Better ?
"half successful ???One either achieves one's goal=success or doesn't= not successful.
Sort of like half winning here.
Robert

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 05:44:21 AM
Oooops! My smiley didn't work.  :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 05, 2004, 09:10:51 AM
Candice
Your remarks to Anna were vulgar and completely uncalled for...You are not answering our questions - you're simply doubting the legitimacy of documented historical evidence without explaining why you doubt it! Nor are you proposing other theories with any facts to back them up - you just hint and tease with a pathetic  collection of rather sad photos...  Is this the best you have to offer ?

Fish or cut bait.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 05, 2004, 09:18:11 AM
Ok, Enough.
Candice, this ends here and now unless you provide explicit evidence instead of theory or speculation.  Your "explanation" about your photos are nothing more than speculation and not proof.  I believe we have all given you plenty of opportunity to this point.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on August 05, 2004, 09:22:29 AM
Quote
Candice
Your remarks to Anna were vulgar and completely uncalled for...You are not answering our questions - you're simply doubting the legitimacy of documented historical evidence without explaining why you doubt it! Nor are you proposing other theories with any facts to back them up - you just hint and tease with a pathetic  collection of rather sad photos...  Is this the best you have to offer ?

Fish or cut bait.

R.


I agree! For someone who frets over making sure a smiley is working in a post -- such detail over nothing! -- Candice certainly isn't very forthcoming with the details that matter!

In an earlier post, Candice, you answered someone's question by saying: "My souce does not wish to be revealed."  Your source for the photos?  A would-be survivor?  I can only say that not even *you* believe your half-baked tales, if you had any confidence whatsoever, you would state your case clearly.

You don't have any serious, important information, of that I am certain. You do, however, enjoy playing games.  I do not understand why others are indulging you by playing along.

But you like that, don't you?
Title: aRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 05, 2004, 12:04:08 PM
Candice: Nicholas Nicholievich was able to leave the Crimea on a war ship in 1919 through the help of the British government. There are a multiplicity of sources which prove this and the fact that he was in no position to rescue Nicholas II and family in 1918.

To my knowledge, Miche-Miche continued to live in England for the rest of his life, never having lived in Norway, there would be no reason to return.

I never said Yurovsky didn't have principles, because I think he did. Just not the same ones I do! He was a committed Checkist, therefore hated Nicholas as all good little revolutionaries must do!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on August 05, 2004, 12:31:13 PM
Candice,

I never said the books I read are more credible. I never used the words I believe" You said : "I can name several books that believe what I believe".Than you said:  "In my opinion  it's all speculation.

I guess, you believe speculation!!

You asked me what proof. You're the one who would provide us with evidence.......

btw
Rskkiya, .... thanks ;)

Anna



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 05, 2004, 02:41:24 PM
Well I don't really care if there is someone "behind" Candice or not...I don't see any serious evidence of any survivors.

However I do think that its interesting to consider just what would motivate someone to pose as a survivor...
In my opinion Anna Anderson was mentally unstable, as was Mr Gorinouski (sp) from Poland. I think that many of the other claiments were either motivated by greed (all that imaginary Romanov gold  ;)) or a deep need for attention. Any comments?

R.

Anna  :) pashalsta
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on August 05, 2004, 05:45:19 PM
Maybe is has something to do with the human mind, sort of instinct - urge?

Anna

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 06:17:36 PM
Sorry to dissappoint you but I cannot take a bow.

anna, I agree the psychological aspect of the mind is facinating.  Anna Anderson et al have been an interesting read with all there claims.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on August 05, 2004, 06:22:46 PM
Oh, Candice, why **not**?
Don't be surprised if from now on you have far fewer here willing to take your bait.

You have such a gift for blithely ignoring posts directed to you, so some of us will return that in kind, k?

:-*
Princess Dashkova

Title: Re: aRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 06:24:11 PM
Lisa, thank you for that information. I would like to know more about where NN lived. It is very interesting that you should say he left on a British ship in 1919.

Candice




Quote
Candice: Nicholas Nicholievich was able to leave the Crimea on a war ship in 1919 through the help of the British government. There are a multiplicity of sources which prove this and the fact that he was in no position to rescue Nicholas II and family in 1918.

To my knowledge, Miche-Miche continued to live in England for the rest of his life, never having lived in Norway, there would be no reason to return.

I never said Yurovsky didn't have principles, because I think he did. Just not the same ones I do! He was a committed Checkist, therefore hated Nicholas as all good little revolutionaries must do!

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2004, 06:34:03 PM
Although I have never written a book or a paper, I have read enough & researched enough for others to have done so. In my opinion, these people, or most of them,  were trying to hide something of their true selves, yet get attention as someone else. You know, "no one wants me the way I am, I  can BE somebody"  Naturally, this has always drawn supporters, and not just for false Romanovs. It goes way back. I think some personaly came to BELIEVE who they were who they claimed to be. AA is a case in point. Of course, she was a bit unstable anyway, who knows what she believed [Peter Kurth may strike me down !!].
Others, just semi glorified circus acts, a con. Gullible audience.
I have met a couple who actually started out trying to write fiction- no interest, so they created some. Didn't matter if proved false later, the idea was to sell books. Not very good ones at that.
Like I said, this is not just a Romanov act. There are quite a few bogus princes, Arab sheiks, mahawhatevers, etc. running around all over the planet.
Only a few days from now, I am being introduced to an Eastern European "prince", who is in need of a fast copy of his genealogy. I was promised he is NOT "Russian". Should be fun. It will not be the first time I have been asked.  I will only do it for authors of fiction though. Sometimes for college kids writing papers.
Re: our "little  contributor" [term used very loosely], She cited a few of the notoriuos discredited books, what about the 200 or so I am staring at my feet in piles, that are universally accepted as validly researched & presented FACTS ?
Oh well, some people escaped from Star Wars & land anywhere. They usually land Here in SF though.
Cheers,
Robert
Oh, sorry to hear Guy Richards is gone, Not surprised though. I met him years ago, very briefly when "Hunt" came out. A very funny fellow.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 06:35:19 PM
Princess Dashkova, I do apologize but I don't mean to ignore your posts or anyone elses.  However, if you think I'm doing this for attention, yes, I'm searching for  answers. So I will rattle some cages until I get my questions answered. Nothing else!

Candice



Quote
Oh, Candice, why **not**?
Don't be surprised if from now on you have far fewer here willing to take your bait.

You have such a gift for blithely ignoring posts directed to you, so some of us will return that in kind, k?

 :-*
Princess Dashkova


Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on August 05, 2004, 06:50:35 PM
Now, now, Candice, of course you do!

However, I think most of us would be delighted for you to prove me wrong!

Unfortunately, this would require some explanations and some less-than-vague responses on your part, which...I guess is impossible since facts or even completely articulated theories are not in your bag of tricks.

It's ok.  I see how the illusion of holding special, secret knowledge makes you feel special.  People like you need that to cope with personal inadequacies.  

So, next time you don't follow through (hmmm, should be in about five minutes, right?) I will try to remember your disability and smile fondly and say: "Oh, there she goes again...awww, isn't it cute how she pretends!"
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on August 05, 2004, 06:52:15 PM
Candice all you seem to do is ignore everyones posts and the questions put to you about your "supposed" facts/theories.Why can't you just come out with this theory of yours or just be quiet about it?

Why don't you start explaining yourself and showing some facts and evidence instead of rambling on about nothing and giving meaningless hints.We are all getting pretty tired of this game playing.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 06:55:31 PM
Dashkova,  I did my part re the photos.  I sent them to FA, I have explained the photos to him. It's out of my hands.  It's his Forum and FA continuously wants more explanation after I have already explained several times. How can you be frustrated with me?  

The photos were supposed to activate some form of discussion, without them you wouldn't understand my point.  The photos as I said in an earlier post are of Yurovsky and Nicholas Nicholaevitch.

My source and I are not claiming anything merely researching. I do hope that's clear.

By the way, the smiley thing... it was supposed to be funny!  However, I am very particular. :)






Quote

I agree! For someone who frets over making sure a smiley is working in a post -- such detail over nothing! -- Candice certainly isn't very forthcoming with the details that matter!

In an earlier post, Candice, you answered someone's question by saying: "My souce does not wish to be revealed."  Your source for the photos?  A would-be survivor?  I can only say that not even *you* believe your half-baked tales, if you had any confidence whatsoever, you would state your case clearly.

You don't have any serious, important information, of that I am certain. You do, however, enjoy playing games.  I do not understand why others are indulging you by playing along.

But you like that, don't you?

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 05, 2004, 07:12:39 PM
Merrique, I'm a romantic!  I believe that at least two did survive. That is my theory.  I also believe that Yurovsky was one of the key people that could have helped them escape. That is my other theory.  

The photo that I sent FA has (in my opinion and that would be up for discussion) Yurovsky placed in the centre of a group of seven people. There are two sailors sitting on either side of Yurovsky. In the back row second on the right is NN.

Can't say anymore as there is no picture for you to comment on.






Quote
Candice all you seem to do is ignore everyones posts and the questions put to you about your "supposed" facts/theories.Why can't you just come out with this theory of yours or just be quiet about it?

Why don't you start explaining yourself and showing some facts and evidence instead of rambling on about nothing and giving meaningless hints.We are all getting pretty tired of this game playing.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 05, 2004, 08:07:13 PM
Hi R

To me anyway, survivor theories and "claimants" are two different subjects,(unless you're talking about "claimant" testimony on survival at Ekaterinburg)

So, everyone, why not a different discussion group for "survivor theories" in order to keep this one on track?

Jeremy      
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 05, 2004, 08:14:59 PM
A seperate thread for THEORIES as opposed to factual claims is a good idea.  Candice, your photo is not going up because you "feel" certain people in the picture are Yurovski or NN...you cannot PROVE your "feelings". This is not a thread about feelings...it is about hard evidence and proof.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 05, 2004, 08:48:45 PM
Quote



 At the time of the executions, Nicholas Nicholievich was trying to stay alive in the Crimea. He had no opportunity to rescue anyone, not even himself!




True, Nikolasha was one of several family members in the Crimea who were imprisoned at the Ai-Todor estate with their lives in danger. They came very close to being executed several times until twists of fate saved them. In the end they were fortunate the British ship arrived to take them away or they'd have surely been killed. You can read detailed accounts of Nikolasha being held prisoner in Lost Splendor and Flight of the Romanovs.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 05, 2004, 09:16:04 PM
This not a remark to or about Candice...

   I think that Mr. Halls comments on how anyone might be tempted to try to reinmagine themselves as someone "special" is a good point. Who wouldn't rather be famous or even infamous rather than ordinary...This might be even more appealing for someone who is adopted,  ;) or  those unsatisfied with their dull relatives. Anyone could be tempted- even for an instant -to reimagine their life as a  lost Romanov, U F O abductee, breeder from a Satanic cult or King of the Gypsies.

   However imagination is not fact.  I like facts. Lets just discuss the evidence. So far, noone has presented any new ideas about claiments, although I would welcome any serious presentations.

   Any other Princesses, Royal bastards, Grandduchess in Exile or Imperial demigods might want to visit the other topic site.
:D
R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 05, 2004, 10:23:31 PM
How tall is the guy in that pic, remember NN was 6'6" ;)

But seriously, not only was Nikolasha being held prisoner in the Crimea at the time, the people there had NO IDEA where the Imperial family was to rescue them even if they could, which of course they couldn't. The day they heard of the execution, they went on with picnics as usual because they had heard so many rumors before they didn't believe anything anymore. Whoever started the story (not blaming Candice, she could have heard it somewhere) sure picked the WRONG person to use in Nikolasha, because his time in 1918 in the Crimea IS accounted for!

Nikolasha, his brother Peter, their wives, Dowager Empress, Xenia, Sandro and their children, as well as Felix and Irina and Felix's parents were all part of the drama. You can read the very exciting accounts of their plight and near death experiences, as well as their eventual escape, in the last 2 chapters of LS for which there are links on this site :)

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/xxvi.html

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/xxvii.html
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 06, 2004, 04:29:53 AM
Annie, Thank you for your information, I have read Lost Spender and found it very interesting.

To everyone, the only thing I'm interested in is finding the truth, if that is at all possible after so many years passed and most of the people are no longer with us.

Regards
Candice :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on August 06, 2004, 07:12:58 AM
Quote
So I will rattle some cages until I get my questions answered. Nothing else!







When do we get our questions answered. Nothing else!

thanks for your friendly remarks !

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on August 06, 2004, 07:43:17 AM
I wish I could use stronger language on you, Candice. But I will refrain.  >:(
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 06, 2004, 09:11:59 AM
Here are her pictures, they may not post because of the file format, which I could not change because they would not save like a regular picture. You may get a prompt to click 'open' and you can see them on a wordpad.

http://www.boomspeed.com/kittylove/NicholasRoomanovandEF.doc

http://www.boomspeed.com/kittylove/Yurovsky_and_YYY.doc

edit: they would not post to show up as real pictures, you might try clicking on the link to see if you get the prompt and you can open it in a wordpad, that's all it's doing, that's all I can do :-/ Somebody post and let me know what you get.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 06, 2004, 09:13:16 AM
Previet Oliga!

   Kak dila?
I do like your new double headed icon -- very stylish!

   So, I do hope that anyone willing to offer us evidence about survivors or claiments will come forth...those who just wants to hint and promise information without presenting anything valid (ehemm hint hint) should not waste our time.
Such clowns ought to go away.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 06, 2004, 09:30:21 AM
For the record, since Candice wants to blame me instead of answer my questions. The reason why I declined to put up the pictures is specifically because here are the salient points of her explanation:
" The images on either side of Nicholas Nicholaevitch is the grandfather of my source who believes that it one and the same person. The image of Yurovsky is compared with another individual who the source feels resembles Yurovsky ...
The photo of NN accompanied with the photos of EF on either side seem to be all the same person NN...Both NN and Yurovsky are in the group NN second from the right and Yurovsky sitting in the centre. In the back row, first on the left is a priest that left the brotherhood, who then became a professor at Fordham University....As an artist I do see and read a lot into the photos. "

I asked for specific factual evidence and got  this. If readers feel I was too harsh in this matter, please say so and I will post the photos.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 06, 2004, 09:37:55 AM
FA
This is your site...I trust your judgement. I would be interested to see these famous photos but only if there is a point to all of this.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 06, 2004, 09:47:50 AM
First,
I want everyone to feel this is "THEIR" forum.  I just try to act as hall monitor, keeping everyone on point and behaving... ;)

For me, the major hurdle with Candice is that NN's time is fully accounted for and she produces no evidence to establish that either NN or Yurovski are actually in the pictures beyond "belief" or supposition, much less that they every actually MET.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 06, 2004, 10:08:09 AM
FA

I'll trust your judgement.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 06, 2004, 11:03:19 AM
The main reason this topic interested me in the first place was the "whatever happened to" aspect of people who long ago  CLAIMED to be so and so.  A sort of follow-up. All their stories were discredited or people simply lost interest.  I was just wondering if anyone was still waving their flags.  AA has her own site so I was thinking of the lesser known folks. The latest being  Michael Gray's bizarre story: after he was roundly laughed off stage, what happened to him?
Another being the Anastasia Beauty Salon story. My curiosity is raised by that one. I had seen such places over the years, but did not realize that someone actually claimed a Romanov connection there !
The Tatiana grave in rural England, a follow up on research into that story would be nice. No one believes she was Tatiana, but they do think with a certain amount of sincerity that she was indeed a Russian of the "upper class" or at the least connected with the court in some way. Any news on that search?
There is the other thread for some sort of fantasy game, and a different category for off-the-wall theories with no back-up  is an excellent idea. Otherwise, I think this thread has lost direction & is pre-occupied with some simplistic fantasy story of an adventure filled trek to North Africa and beyond with no supported evidence. This does not even meet the low standards of "theory" in my book.
Wake me up when it gets interesting again please.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 06, 2004, 11:15:38 AM
here are pictures of NN, by the way, courtesy of Annie:
http://personal.palouse.net/valeska/grand-duke.htm
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 06, 2004, 12:10:49 PM
Just curious, did anyone get the pictures to show up?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Louise on August 06, 2004, 12:17:10 PM
Yes, I was able to see the pictures. Now, the question I have is...Are we to believe that in the first set of pictures, the man in the middle is Tsar Nicholas? Please, and really. I saw that picture a million years ago in the book Hunt for the Tsar or File on the Tsar. Not likely, not him.

Now in the second set of pictures, the man second from the right is SUPPOSE to be NN? Nope, not him. Never will believe it. NN was 6'5" or taller. At the time that picture was taken NN was older, grayer, and had a beard and please don't try to placate me by insisting that he shaved it. Like wise with the picture of "Nicolas"

What some people won't do for attention.

Louise
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 06, 2004, 12:17:57 PM
Anne, I just got a blank screen.
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Janet_W. on August 06, 2004, 12:39:22 PM
Submitted for Your Consideration:


"Feelings . . .  Whoa whoa whoa feelings . . . . " -- Unjustly popular song of several decades ago

"I believe for every drop of rain that falls / a flower grows . . . " -- Beautiful song of inspiration

"Just the facts, ma'm." -- Sgt. Joe Friday's cut-to-the-chase remark to anyone about to discourse or go off-topic


;)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 06, 2004, 01:31:04 PM
Does anyone recognize this woman?
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/teeyoung.jpg)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on August 06, 2004, 01:43:57 PM
Honestly?
It looks a little bit like Ethel Rosenberg, or a wee bit like my friend Debbie's grandmother. But not like any Romanov I've ever seen -- then again I am no expert on photo's.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Lisa on August 06, 2004, 01:45:35 PM
mmmmmh...let me think. who she could be? I don't know. an another Anastasia? but I must think very carefully and because the discussion is about the claimants...
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 06, 2004, 03:01:20 PM
FA, re your reply to my last message I assure you I'm not trying to blame you for anything, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.  Although you have not accurately quoted my description of the photos I sent you, and my description does indeed contain typo errors, I can see that my line of enquiry is not useful at this time.  I therefore ask you to let me put it on the back burner for now.

I am, however, most interested in what you say and in keeping in touch.



Quote
For the record, since Candice wants to blame me instead of answer my questions. The reason why I declined to put up the pictures is specifically because here are the salient points of her explanation:
" The images on either side of Nicholas Nicholaevitch is the grandfather of my source who believes that it one and the same person. The image of Yurovsky is compared with another individual who the source feels resembles Yurovsky ...
 The photo of NN accompanied with the photos of EF on either side seem to be all the same person NN...Both NN and Yurovsky are in the group NN second from the right and Yurovsky sitting in the centre. In the back row, first on the left is a priest that left the brotherhood, who then became a professor at Fordham University....As an artist I do see and read a lot into the photos. "

I asked for specific factual evidence and got  this. If readers feel I was too harsh in this matter, please say so and I will post the photos.
FA

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 06, 2004, 04:29:52 PM
MY GRANDMOTHER ! Long lost [dead], well, hmmm Greek and boy did she claim & pretend !!
Cheers Grannii Angi
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2004, 05:39:05 PM
Back to the "could-it-be Yurovsky photo offered to us by Candice.

All I have are photographs of him in his later years .... The one where he has facial hair and is drinking, if my memory serves me right, a glass of tea....  There was another but I can't recall in which book it was in.... Does anyone have one of his earlier years so we can have some kind of comparison to Candice's photo.

Yurovsky must have known and met many people in his life.  And, I do believe he loved photography.

Reserving my opinion until I have more information.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on August 07, 2004, 12:49:01 PM
FA, I don't recognize that person at all.  Could you tell us who it's supposed to be?  It can't be a Romanov, I'm sure. . . ;)  ::)

Seriously, it doesn't even remotely resemble any Romanov.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 07, 2004, 10:55:04 PM
On one of our more hysterical [funny] threads, a man claiming to be a direct descendant of Rasputin was running around. I think he may have been dis-proved. However, at least one of Rasputin's daughters had her own claim to fame for a while. Anyone know of any real [or supposedly real] Rasputin descendants now?
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 08, 2004, 09:55:22 AM
Robert,
This question really belongs in a separate Rasputin thread.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 08, 2004, 10:08:33 AM
I would agree, however, he was  connected to the IF as much as Demidova or even Yurovsky was. Also, I could not find an appropriste thread on Rasputin.  I am not criticising, but I think we may be getting a bit top-heavy in threads here ?  I was hoping this to be inclusive of all imperial era claimants, just just those of the IF itself.
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on August 08, 2004, 05:11:08 PM
Who is that woman whose picture is posted?  Or maybe I should ask who is that woman SUPPOSED to be? ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 08, 2004, 05:59:27 PM
I want to know if you recognize this woman. That is the question.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Louise on August 08, 2004, 06:06:41 PM
I for one do not know who this woman is.

Louise
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 08, 2004, 07:38:51 PM
Maria Ousepenkaya in her younger years? Fanny Brice's mother in Funny Girl?
Neither do I know who she is.
Is this another of Candice's games?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Louise on August 08, 2004, 07:41:24 PM
Ok, here is my offical answer. It is Princess  Vera Constantinovich.

Louise
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on August 08, 2004, 08:43:34 PM
I haven't got a clue who that woman is in that picture.Can you give us a hint FA?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on August 09, 2004, 05:27:51 AM
Anna Vyrubova?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Lisa on August 09, 2004, 05:35:32 AM
Quote
I want to know if you recognize this woman. That is the question.


What we will win?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: anna on August 09, 2004, 06:03:42 AM
Looks like the Queen Mum in younger years.

Lisa, you can win this photo in a silver frame, very nice on a bedside table :D

Anna
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Lisa on August 09, 2004, 06:06:27 AM
Yeeeaaaaahhh? hmmmm...bof :-X  :P  :-/
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on August 09, 2004, 04:32:58 PM
Quote
Does anyone recognize this woman?
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/teeyoung.jpg)


Sorry, she looks completely unfamiliar to me.  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 09, 2004, 05:48:11 PM
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/teeyoung.jpg)

I think she's FA's mother at about 35-40.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 09, 2004, 06:29:02 PM
It is NOT my mother.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Douglas on August 09, 2004, 06:38:18 PM
It looks a lot like King Hakon's mother.  Do I get the prize?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2004, 06:50:49 PM
http://www.boomspeed.com/kittylove/NicholasRoomanovandEF.doc

I assume this is Nicholas Romanov as is stated in THE HUNT FOR THE CZAR by Guy Richards.  His name was mentioned in the San Francisco Examiner on 26 July 1920 in which he urged that the Russians be helped to replace the communist govt. wtih a Russian monarchy.  On p. 122 Richards tells us that there was another article.  One states Nicholas as "no kin of" Nicholas II and the other states he is a "natural son" of Nicholas II's uncle.....  And in the first the report gives him the rank of "captain" and in the second the rank of "colonel" .  


The other two,  I would guess, is the same man only younger.

Can someone tell us what uniform he is wearing and the medal pinned over his pocket?

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 09, 2004, 08:35:46 PM
Sorry FA  :P Did anyone else guess it?

Bear- So the guy is claiming to be the illegitimate son of Nikolasha? Why have we not heard of him before?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2004, 10:22:39 PM
The photograph with Romanov in uniform was in the book Hunt for the Czar by Guy Richards, which I had remembered seeing.

That's about all I know....

I don't know if he was or was not part of the Royal Romanov family.  Someone else will have to give us that information.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on August 10, 2004, 12:16:09 AM
Sorry, FA, I don't mean to irritate you, but I honestly have no idea who it is.  :-/  Barbra Streisand!  ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 10, 2004, 09:01:56 AM
Ok,
Here's the deal.  First, that photo is my Great Aunt Sadie "Tee" Dreikurs, my grandmother's sister, taken in Berlin in 1924 (an amazing woman, artist, author, world traveller and my family's "Auntie Mame"...but I digress).
I put that up for one reason. I wanted to show how people WILL try to find a resemblance in an unattributed photo when they think they need to due to the CONTEXT in which they are presented the picture. About half of you did....Just because I posted a photo, in this thread, half of you assumed there must be a resemblance to someone historical and found one.
I hope that this little "lesson" will stick with you when you see unattributed or undocumented photos with people claiming a resemblance to historical figures. Resemblance in old pictures means very little without substantial hard evidence to support it.
No prizes, this time...
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 10, 2004, 09:26:09 AM
OK, back to "serious claimants". Does anyone know where I can write to Maria Vladirmirovna?
Is she still in Madrid?
Thanks,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2004, 09:26:21 AM
Quote
Ok,
Here's the deal.  First, that photo is my Great Aunt Sadie "Tee" Dreikurs, my grandmother's sister, taken in Berlin in 1924 (an amazing woman, artist, author, world traveller and my family's "Auntie Mame"...but I digress).
I put that up for one reason. I wanted to show how people WILL try to find a resemblance in an unattributed photo when they think they need to due to the CONTEXT in which they are presented the picture. About half of you did....Just because I posted a photo, in this thread, half of you assumed there must be a resemblance to someone historical and found one.
I hope that this little "lesson" will stick with you when you see unattributed or undocumented photos with people claiming a resemblance to historical figures. Resemblance in old pictures means very little without substantial hard evidence to support it.
No prizes, this time...
FA



OOoh good point FA! I agree that can happen, and did! It's like what I posted in the Vasili Filatov thread about the song, and pictures, and suggestion ;)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on August 14, 2004, 01:41:58 AM
Quote
Ok,
Here's the deal.  First, that photo is my Great Aunt Sadie "Tee" Dreikurs, my grandmother's sister, taken in Berlin in 1924 (an amazing woman, artist, author, world traveller and my family's "Auntie Mame"...but I digress).
I put that up for one reason. I wanted to show how people WILL try to find a resemblance in an unattributed photo when they think they need to due to the CONTEXT in which they are presented the picture. About half of you did....Just because I posted a photo, in this thread, half of you assumed there must be a resemblance to someone historical and found one.
I hope that this little "lesson" will stick with you when you see unattributed or undocumented photos with people claiming a resemblance to historical figures. Resemblance in old pictures means very little without substantial hard evidence to support it.
No prizes, this time...
FA



Brilliant work, FA. Oh, I do hope Rodger is paying attention, this is a very good lesson for him.  But, of course, his case is different. Of course, of course ;)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 14, 2004, 04:54:06 PM
Robert - As far as I know, Maria Vladimirovna still lives in Madrid. I am not in correspondence with her, but perhaps someone who posts here is and can get you an address.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on August 29, 2004, 11:14:38 AM
On another thread, it was asked if their were any claimants who voiced they were the uncrown Tsar Michael II?  I don't recall but I'm sure some of you have the answer.  If so, could you tell me your source so I could find these claims?

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2004, 11:19:30 AM
Such a person did post here, and then several months later threatened to sue Bob because he felt some of the most sceptical responses to his claims were libelous and demanded they be removed.  In fairness, we removed every single reference to the topic.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on August 30, 2004, 06:17:58 PM
I think Nicholas Romanov's "natural son" of Nicholas II's uncle could have been with the  American Intelligence. I wonder if that was a special uniform for that division. I'm 98% sure that Nicholas was a Romanov, using a different name.  

Candice



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on September 06, 2004, 11:29:18 PM
Concerning Candice's photographs

The group of photographs you have marked as Yurovsky and YYY are:
(1) Yurovsky - the same photo used by King in his bio found on the following URL: http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovski_bio.html

(2) The clean shaven person you, Candice, think might be Yurovsky?

(3)  The group photo you think is Yurovsky and  Nicholas Romanov.  Which Nicholas Romanov?  The one you just mentioned as being "natural son of Nicholas II's uncle"

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on September 08, 2004, 06:49:42 PM
AGRbear, in answer to your questions:

1.  Yes, I have used the same photo as King.

2. Yes, the clean shaven person with a mustache in the group photo, I think to be Yurovsky.

3.  Yes,  "natural son of NicholasII's uncle" mentioned in 'The Hunt for the Czar' by Guy Richards.

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on September 09, 2004, 10:52:01 AM
I have just posted three photos of the real Yurovsky, courtesy of Penny here:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1094464093;start=6#6
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on September 09, 2004, 12:22:31 PM
FA and Penny, thank you for posting those images of Yurovsky.  I definitely agree with you Yurovsky in your photos looks very different, he has straight course hair and is very heavy set with a full lower lip. Possibly due to less hair on his face? Whereas in my photo that I coppied from the book 'The Romanovs, The Final Chapter' by Robert K. Massie, the photo of Yurovsky clearly shows him as having curly hair and being thinner in structure.  Could the man in Massie's book be a younger Yurovsky, or could it be an impersonator?  

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on September 09, 2004, 12:27:08 PM
AGRBear, I have a correction to make.  The photo of Yurovsky that I used was from 'The Romanovs, The Final Chapter' by Robert K. Massie not King.  King also uses the same photo.

Candice


Quote
Concerning Candice's photographs

The group of photographs you have marked as Yurovsky and YYY are:
(1) Yurovsky - the same photo used by King in his bio found on the following URL: http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovski_bio.html

(2) The clean shaven person you, Candice, think might be Yurovsky?

(3)  The group photo you think is Yurovsky and  Nicholas Romanov.  Which Nicholas Romanov?  The one you just mentioned as being "natural son of Nicholas II's uncle"

AGRBear

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 06:28:18 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/dashkova/NOTAnastasia.jpg)

This is one view of Litwin's "Anastasia".  Part of a group photo he believes to have been taken approx. 1929 right after the death of the Dowager Empress.  Also in the larger photo are the supposed "GD Maria," "GD Mikhail A," the "Hetman" and others.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 06:31:12 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/dashkova/GDMikhailA.jpg)

And this is Litwin's "Uncle Mike" aka (according to *him*) GD Mikhail.  This is also from the larger, group photo, which I have seen. My copies are parts from that photo that were photocopied and given to me by Litwin.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on September 29, 2004, 07:19:32 AM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/dashkova/NOTAnastasia.jpg)

This is one view of Litwin's "Anastasia".  Part of a group photo he believes to have been taken approx. 1929 right after the death of the Dowager Empress.  Also in the larger photo are the supposed "GD Maria," "GD Mikhail A," the "Hetman" and others.


Well she looks more like an older Anastasia than AA ever did. But that Misha, no way.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 08:23:44 AM
Dashkova, can you post the whole group photo? I'd like to see the others.  That Anastasia does kind of look like an older version, sort of, like the nose/eyes/face shape, but if it was taken in '29, that would make Anastasia 28.  That woman looks about 48.  Did he have pictures of "Olga" or "Tatiana" too?  I'd like to see them as well as the "Maria" pic.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 09:00:49 AM
Michelle, I wish I could help out with the group photo, but I do not have that, basically he copied, cut and pasted the parts he initially wanted me to see (and mailed them to me).  I later saw the original in person, but do not have a copy.

He claimed that Olga and Tatiana went to Argentina and had some photos that I did see of those two GD's.  However, he had a time problem as the photos in question were obviously taken late 1940s or 1950s and the women in the photos appeared in their early to mid 20s.  He explained this by saying that "everyone in my family (meaning the Romanovs) doesn't age until right before they die."

Ohhhh-KAY, your highness, I thought at the time.

I've got some more photos that need to be scanned. I'll try to post them soon.  For now, check the next post for another view of "Anastasia"
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 09:02:43 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/dashkova/notanastasia2.jpg)

Another photo Litwin says is Anastasia.  From her "wedding photo" (when she married the Hetman, according to him)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: haleycopter on September 29, 2004, 09:36:10 AM
Dashkova, thanks very much for the pictures.  I've been following the research thread and have found it very interesting, although I really don't have anything intelligent to say regarding it.   :)  Just an observer at the moment.

I do think that your first picture of "Anastasia" looks indeed like an older version of the GD.  Not that I'm saying it's her, but...the woman in the picture looks like she has seen more than her share of difficult times, and I imagine that the real Anastasia, had she lived like Litwin claims, would look something like that.  Although, was the real GD so big-boned?  

Also, the second picture, to me, doesn't look like the same person.  *shrug*  I can't really tell, but the first one looked more like a ghost of the Anastasia that we know than the second.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 10:34:14 AM
Thank you, Dashkova for the pictures.  They are very interesting.  :)

I must say, though, that the second "Anastasia" doesn't look like the real GD at all--not even close.  It's most certainly the same person as the first "Anastasia," but she looks all wrong.  Her eyes, the nose (it looks rather large and ugly, I guess you could say:P).........Just doesn't look "right."

That is VERY peculiar that Litwin said that his family doesn't age until right before they die.  That's totally ludicrous because age is evident in the pics we know of Nicky and Alix.  And of course the children matured, which would be a form of "ageing."  So that kind of makes me think that this guy could very well be a little "out there." ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 10:47:21 AM
Quote
Thank you, Dashkova for the pictures.  They are very interesting.  :)

I must say, though, that the second "Anastasia" doesn't look like the real GD at all--not even close.  It's most certainly the same person as the first "Anastasia," but she looks all wrong.  Her eyes, the nose (it looks rather large and ugly, I guess you could say:P).........Just doesn't look "right."

That is VERY peculiar that Litwin said that his family doesn't age until right before they die.  That's totally ludicrous because age is evident in the pics we know of Nicky and Alix.  And of course the children matured, which would be a form of "ageing."  So that kind of makes me think that this guy could very well be a little "out there." ::)


Hi Michelle.  "Out there" Yes!
He liked to remark that he could never fit into the modern/commoner world because he always "heard distant trumptets."
What utter cheez!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 10:51:08 AM
Quote

Hi Michelle.  "Out there" Yes!
He liked to remark that he could never fit into the modern/commoner world because he always "heard distant trumptets."
What utter cheez!


"Distant trumpets?!" :o :o :o  Holy moly!  This guy is severely delusional!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o

::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Annie on September 29, 2004, 11:59:28 AM
Quote
Dashkova, can you post the whole group photo? I'd like to see the others.  That Anastasia does kind of look like an older version, sort of, like the nose/eyes/face shape, but if it was taken in '29, that would make Anastasia 28.  That woman looks about 48.


It's common for people to look older in those old pics. Maybe because of the styles back then, or a harder lifestyle, a lot of older pictures look older than the person really is. I was surprised to see some old prairie pics of worn out ladies holding kids and I thought they were the grandma and it turned out they were the mother who wasn't even 30 yet! My Grandma was born in June 1901 like Anastasia and she lived until 1986. She told me once that people in older times looked older and that she had noticed in her life that people in my time didn't look so old for their age as they did years ago when she was younger.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on September 29, 2004, 12:23:19 PM
If Litwin via Dashkova  #1 photo and #2 photo are the same person,  then these are excellent examples how photographs of the same person can be different ....

If I remember,  their are several artists on this thread.  I'm wondering what they would say about the broad slavic cheeks on #2 as compared to the thiner face on #1....

Trying to keep an open .....

AGBRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 29, 2004, 12:36:06 PM
Slavic ? Romanovs ?
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 12:54:18 PM
AGRBear, I agree about the more Slavic cheekbones in the second photo, and though I am no artist, I have a background in art history.  Again, I'm no expert and this is only my opinion, but the photo with the baby, one side of the face is more shadowed than the other, perhaps lending a more "thin" appearance.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on September 29, 2004, 01:09:44 PM
Although  the photographs are in black and white,  it appears #1 photo has light color hair, whereas,  #2 has dark hair....

???

And, yes,  Robert,  good point.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on September 29, 2004, 04:19:27 PM
Dashkova, thanks for sharing the Litwin photos.

I have been following the multiple "survival/claimant" threads with various levels of interest, amusement and disgust since I first joined these boards back in February.  In a few cases, contributors have been individuals with agendas of their own (some more hidden than others) who fancy themselves descendants of a "long-lost" survivor of the wholesale slaughter of Romanovs in 1918.  Even more entertaining has been watching the various sniping and baiting between posters who, as it turns out, have (gasp!) dueling theories.

Only on a few occasions have I found myself so irritated by sheer ridiculousness that I have been spurred to contribute.   This is one of those times.

I am baffled that these "grandsons of Anastasia, etc" continue to ignore historical and scientific evidence, anecdotal history, common sense, and the well-documented personalities of all the souls who died, simply to push their delusional beliefs and dreams.  

Does ANYONE seriously think for one single solitary second that GD Michael Aleksandrovich, had he survived Perm, would not have moved heaven and earth to reach his wife and son and stepdaughter?  Does ANYONE seriously believe that the Dowager Empress and Olga Alexandrovna were such heartless women that they would have denied a genuine survivor?

People will believe what they want to believe, history and evidence and logic be damned.   If someone wants to escape what they perceive to be the mundane ordinariness of their lives and fancy themselves some sort of long-lost royal, fine. It's sick and it's sad and pitiful, in my opinion, not to mention insulting to those who lost their loved ones.  

And no, that is NOT Michael Aleksandrovich.  And that is NOT Anastasia Nikolaievna.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on September 29, 2004, 04:27:22 PM
JANE

Spasibah balshoiyu!
  Your comment was a breath of fresh air . With a few witty and well chosen words you brought us all back into line!
  Thank you and I do hope that you will still stick around and contribute.

part of this motley crew
Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 29, 2004, 04:30:52 PM
Bravo, Jane! (Clapping hands)

Of course the real Misha would have moved heaven and earth to rejoin his family. It is an insult to his memory to suggest anything else!

Of course Anastasia's (or Marie's) family would have welcomed her back - no matter what the circumstances. It is an insult to the memory of the Imperial Family to suggest anything else!

Yet, the insults continue, all these years later, with the grandchildren now of the claimants. Nearly all these stories are similar - the old relative reveals their "Imperial" heritage days weeks or months before death.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 29, 2004, 05:51:53 PM
I agree 110% Lisa. It has been my contention since I first became interested in the Romanovs that it is simply an insult to think that any would have "hidden" from the family or any "Family" would have refused them, no matter what differences of opinion may have been.
These "deathbed confessions" and ridiculous claimants are a trashy insult. Even more ridiculous as the time has worn on. It is not even "speculation" now, it is downright fantasy.
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on September 29, 2004, 05:53:22 PM
Please see the original letter written by GD Olga, posted in the AA and Anastasia thread, where she writes those very words about her and her mother, IF there had really been a survivor.
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 06:33:39 PM
I read the letter from GD Olga right after it was posted and am so grateful to have been able to see it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the entire extended family were completely heartbroken over their loss, and would have absolutely moved heaven and earth to be reunited with any lost loved ones.

And thank you Jane for your lovely post.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on September 29, 2004, 06:40:51 PM
I do like the photos but the person in your photos in my opinion does not resemble Anastasia Romanov.  The structure of her face is different and her her eyes are larger, the shape of her nose is not the same it is heavier and not as refined as Anastasia's nose. Also her mouth seems slightly wider.



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 06:44:33 PM
Whoa there, Candice!  Are you sure you've read this end of the thread carefully??

These are NOT *my* photos, and I never said they resembled Anastasia or Mikhail (in fact, my view is quite to the contrary!) and used my art historical background only in reference to the shadows that fall on the lighter-haired photo to suggest that is why the Slavic features observed in the other photo don't show up.

i.e.:  ahem...I don't think it's Anastasia, either!

And these are not my photos, ok?  They are *photocopies* that were given to me by the Stanford claimant, and just because he gave them to me doesn't mean I think they're of any sort of Romanov.
I am not trying to be picky here, but *please* don't anyone think I'm putting forth some sort of claim myself! lol!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 09:03:29 PM
Dashkova, I'm a bit confused by your post.  When did I ever say that I thought that you were supportive of this "Anastasia?"  If I said that these were "your" photos, I didn't mean it in the same way that you're talking about.  I already know that they're Litwin's.  It's just easier to type "your photos" as opposed to "Litwin's photos," or whatever.  I don't understand where this attack, I guess, is coming from all of a sudden. :-/
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Lanie on September 29, 2004, 09:04:42 PM
Michelle, I think Dashkova meant Candice, not you. :)

These photos make me laugh, a lot...just like Litwin does.  Very entertaining stuff this.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 09:19:32 PM
Quote
Dashkova, I'm a bit confused by your post.  When did I ever say that I thought that you were supportive of this "Anastasia?"  If I said that these were "your" photos, I didn't mean it in the same way that you're talking about.  I already know that they're Litwin's.  It's just easier to type "your photos" as opposed to "Litwin's photos," or whatever.  I don't understand where this attack, I guess, is coming from all of a sudden. :-/


Michelle, I am so sorry, my mistake, and I don't mean to sound like I am attacking *anybody*. I just want to make completely *sure* that everyone understands that these aren't my personal and/or family photos and that while I do have the photocopies in my possession, I don't believe the claims made about them by others.
Whew!
Again, my apologies!
Thanks to Lanie for pointing this out before I had a chance to correct.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 09:21:12 PM
Oh thank you Lanie! :)  I feel much better now. :D  I was kinda wondering if Dashkova had meant someone else.  But, ya, it is pretty entertaining! :D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 29, 2004, 09:21:31 PM
Quote
Michelle, I think Dashkova meant Candice, not you. :)

These photos make me laugh, a lot...just like Litwin does.  Very entertaining stuff this.


Yes, strange but funny at the same time, I know what you mean.  I see where you kicked him out of your yahoo group.  He has posted the identical message in *my* group there, too!  Total nutjob.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on September 29, 2004, 09:25:07 PM
Oh, don't worry about it, Dashkova.  I forgive you! :D :)  Your post wasn't really an "attack," I just drew a blank of more suitable words. My mind can draw lots a blanks when it comes to certain words--frequently. LOL! ::) :D  So again, no sweat. ;)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on September 30, 2004, 08:34:58 AM
Jane you were right on the money!

Thanks! I hope though when the real, if there is a real, claimant does show up that we can all be able to identify him/her. Because of all these false alarms - if you will - I'm wondering if we will all still have that clarity to see the truth when it does show up.

We all seem a bit jumpy and walking on pins and needles like poor Dashkova seems to be now not wanting to offend the seemingly thin skinned intellectuals on this site.

Oh?! I'm sorry if I offended anyone?! Just calling it as I see it.

I'm sorry dashkova if you have been made to feel this way. Best regards. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 30, 2004, 08:46:35 AM
Not at all. This argument isn't worth a lot of my time to begin with, so I don't see the need to waste more time battling with others (who will believe what they want, anyway). It might look like I'm working hard not to "offend" but what is really happening is I won't be bothered to continue to argue a point.  

Especially since I had to personally deal with much of what I have been posting about in this thread, and more that I haven't posted.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on September 30, 2004, 10:26:51 AM
Quote
I hope though when the real, if there is a real, claimant does show up that we can all be able to identify him/her. Because of all these false alarms - if you will - I'm wondering if we will all still have that clarity to see the truth when it does show up.


As far as I am concerned, the overwhelming weight of credible and reliable historical and scientific evidence establishes that the "truth" is that Nicholas II, Empress Alexandra and all five of their children died in Ekaterinburg in July 1918, either inside the Ipatiev House or shortly thereafter as a result of injuries.  Ditto regarding the Romanovs imprisoned in Alapaevsk.  And GD Michael Aleksandrovich died in June 1918.

We already know the "truth."  All else is either wishful thinking, navel-gazing, self-aggrandizing or delusional psychosis.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 30, 2004, 11:36:09 AM
You forgot: childish fantasies and Walt Disney musical cartoons.
Cheers !
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on September 30, 2004, 03:06:01 PM
Quote
You forgot: childish fantasies and Walt Disney musical cartoons.
Cheers !
Robert


LOL very good one Robert! ;D :D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on September 30, 2004, 03:17:35 PM
You are all real  tuff on this subject.  :-/

I suppose if there was a real descendant of one of the missing Royal children,  you'd not even let him/her in your front door unless there was a DNA report in  his/her hand.  [This doesn't include Dashkov who did keep and open mind for a time with Litwin.]

Can you just imagine back in 1919 and into the early 1920s if there was/had been a "real" claimant,  how difficult it would have been to get passed most of you?   I'm sure the Romanovs were  more leary than any of could ever be.

Then who should show up but Ana Anderson claiming she was Anatasia....

If there was a "real" claimant out there somewhere and saw what was happening to Ana Anderson,  I'm not sure he/she would have come forward.  Why?  Well, just think about it.  Here is a young woman/ boy who has experience a huge trauma and may be in some kind of depression who would have had to argue over if they were "real" or fake.

Added to this, there would have been news media, flashing bulbs from camera and all those people who gather at this kind of event.....  The "real"  he/she would have to repeat his/her story over and over... And,  this would before he'd/she'd get to see anyone who counted.....  Then you'd have questions like:  "How did you survive when no one else did?"  Also, in order to survive,  maybe he/she did things, such as getting married,  which would have been frown upon...  

If there was a survior or survivors,  the jewels wouldn't have been useable since this would have alerted someone who would have gone to the local CHEKA....  Without money,  you're not going to be buying a train ticket to Manchuria or China.... or a boat ticket to England...

And,  who could you tell that you are  not only a Romanov but a child of Nicholas II.....?  Even if you did,  you'd get laughter and a wink.

If there was a survior  who was alone and had never had to deal with the "outside world",  and,  having just lost your family,  it would have been more than tuff.

Won't even go into Alexei's health problem,  if he had been the one who survived.

Before anyone jumps up and calls me Rodger, again,  please don't.  I am not Rodger nor do I make any claims of being a descendant of NIcholas II nor do I even know a Romanov.  And, no, I don't have an agenda which would present a claimant or a child of a  claimant.

Anyway,  just thought I mention how difficult it would have been and still is if a "real" claimant exsisted, and,  it would be even tuffer for a child of the "real" claimant because I think if he/she  showed us the results of a DNA test and it showed she/he related,  I bet over half here just on this thread wouldn't believe it.  As for me,  I'd just say my usual,  "I'm keeping a open mind about it. ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on September 30, 2004, 03:26:47 PM
First,
Why should ANYONE waste their time on any claimant without DNA testing?
WHY should people who know the facts very well NOT ask hardball questions and demand answers?

Do you think if someone showed up claiming to be Amelia Airhardt, Judge Crater or Jimmy Hoffa anyone would be any less sceptical?

NO ONE should be given a "sentimental" break on their claims just because maybe it was "tough on them".  THAT is what con artists count on for their scams, suspension of rational thinking and suspension of disbelief, by playing on the sentiment and emotions.

I for one, make no apologies for being tough on anyone with such a claim.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 30, 2004, 03:36:34 PM
The difference, AGRB, is that we are presently looking at what- 86 years of innumerable published memoirs, research, histories, tests of every concievable sort and scrutiny.
Even in those days, there would have been ways for escape if there was someone to actually "escape". Others did it. Those children were not well known enough to be recognized, the church ran an underground railroad of sorts and not just for running Romanovs. I doubt the Emperor himself, shaved, out of uniform would be recognised.  He was not even on that many postage stamps! There were plenty of waiting open arms once accross any border.
I do not think that "tough" is correct. Realistic is more appropriate, in my opinion.
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 30, 2004, 04:19:17 PM
Quote
You are all real  tuff on this subject.  :-/

I suppose if there was a real descendant of one of the missing Royal children,  you'd not even let him/her in your front door unless there was a DNA report in  his/her hand.  [This doesn't include Dashkov who did keep and open mind for a time with Litwin.]

Can you just imagine back in 1919 and into the early 1920s if there was/had been a "real" claimant,  how difficult it would have been to get passed most of you?   I'm sure the Romanovs were  more leary than any of could ever be.

Then who should show up but Ana Anderson claiming she was Anatasia....

If there was a "real" claimant out there somewhere and saw what was happening to Ana Anderson,  I'm not sure he/she would have come forward.  Why?  Well, just think about it.  Here is a young woman/ boy who has experience a huge trauma and may be in some kind of depression who would have had to argue over if they were "real" or fake.

Added to this, there would have been news media, flashing bulbs from camera and all those people who gather at this kind of event.....  The "real"  he/she would have to repeat his/her story over and over... And,  this would before he'd/she'd get to see anyone who counted.....  Then you'd have questions like:  "How did you survive when no one else did?"  Also, in order to survive,  maybe he/she did things, such as getting married,  which would have been frown upon...  

If there was a survior or survivors,  the jewels wouldn't have been useable since this would have alerted someone who would have gone to the local CHEKA....  Without money,  you're not going to be buying a train ticket to Manchuria or China.... or a boat ticket to England...

And,  who could you tell that you are  not only a Romanov but a child of Nicholas II.....?  Even if you did,  you'd get laughter and a wink.

If there was a survior  who was alone and had never had to deal with the "outside world",  and,  having just lost your family,  it would have been more than tuff.

Won't even go into Alexei's health problem,  if he had been the one who survived.

Before anyone jumps up and calls me Rodger, again,  please don't.  I am not Rodger nor do I make any claims of being a descendant of NIcholas II nor do I even know a Romanov.  And, no, I don't have an agenda which would present a claimant or a child of a  claimant.

Anyway,  just thought I mention how difficult it would have been and still is if a "real" claimant exsisted, and,  it would be even tuffer for a child of the "real" claimant because I think if he/she  showed us the results of a DNA test and it showed she/he related,  I bet over half here just on this thread wouldn't believe it.  As for me,  I'd just say my usual,  "I'm keeping a open mind about it. ;D

AGRBear


I see nothing wrong with keeping an open mind and I think you do make some good points.  I think the problem that surfaces (so far, every single time) is that the people who make the claims really *do* have some sort of agenda, ranging from money to a need for recognition, to visions of being offered the throne of Russia (as Litwin imagines).  Also, most if not all of these claimants think they're *special* somehow and shouldn't be expected to do things like...well, like *work* for a living and that they -- due to their royal blood -- should be treated with deference.

Can anyone offer examples of claimants (not just those who claimed to be the original family members, but their descendants and relatives) who did not follow this example?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on September 30, 2004, 07:47:08 PM
Yes for 86 years there have been claiments.  How sad or how clever of the Russian Governemt.  It's the only way of keeping the true claimants embarassed/scared to come forward.  I agree with ARGBear.  Who would believe them.  

Dashkova, If there were any one claimant, they would only be interested in trying to make sense of their own belonging and not because they felt "special" or didn't want to "work" or for "money" reasons as you say.  I'm sure that if a true descendant was to surface they would not state a claim.   That decision remains only with the people of Russia.



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 30, 2004, 08:53:51 PM
Quote
Yes for 86 years there have been claiments.  How sad or how clever of the Russian Governemt.  It's the only way of keeping the true claimants embarassed/scared to come forward.  I agree with ARGBear.  Who would believe them.  

Dashkova, If there were any one claimant, they would only be interested in trying to make sense of their own belonging and not because they felt "special" or didn't want to "work" or for "money" reasons as you say.  I'm sure that if a true descendant was to surface they would not state a claim.   That decision remains only with the people of Russia.





Candice, I don't know how old you are, my guess is fairly young.  When I was young I felt an overpowering need to believe that somehow someone had survived. When you are older you will look at things differently and realize that wanting something to be a certain way really is only wishful thinking and a way to somehow cope with the horrible truth.
It's a nice fairy tale, that's all I can say about it.  Actually, and maybe because I am older now, I have made peace with what can only be the truth.

I am always willing to listen to the remote possiblities that crop up from time to time, but you must admit every claimant that has popped out of the woodwork (and there have been so many, as we know) resembles more of a sideshow act than anything else.  And there is no reason whatsoever to expect any "true" claimant to behave any differently.  It would always wind up being a case of:  "what's in it for me."
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on September 30, 2004, 08:55:36 PM
Quote
Yes for 86 years there have been claiments.  How sad or how clever of the Russian Governemt.  It's the only way of keeping the true claimants embarassed/scared to come forward.  I agree with ARGBear.  Who would believe them.  

Dashkova, If there were any one claimant, they would only be interested in trying to make sense of their own belonging and not because they felt "special" or didn't want to "work" or for "money" reasons as you say.  I'm sure that if a true descendant was to surface they would not state a claim.   That decision remains only with the people of Russia.





Yikes, I just caught the first part of your post.  Do you seriously believe that the Russian government is responsible for all the claimants over the years?  And to *distract* everyone from the true, holy, sacred claimants?? That's laughable. In fact, that's classic Litwin.
Tin foil hats for everyone!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on September 30, 2004, 11:26:29 PM
Quote
First,
(1)Why should ANYONE waste their time on any claimant without DNA testing?
(2)WHY should people who know the facts very well NOT ask hardball questions and demand answers?

(3)Do you think if someone showed up claiming to be Amelia Airhardt, Judge Crater or Jimmy Hoffa anyone would be any less sceptical?

(4)NO ONE should be given a "sentimental" break on their claims just because maybe it was "tough on them".  THAT is what con artists count on for their scams, suspension of rational thinking and suspension of disbelief, by playing on the sentiment and emotions.

(5) I for one, make no apologies for being tough on anyone with such a claim.


Questions 1 through 4:  I agree.  

My point was:  A "real" claimant or a child of one would have a hard time convincing most of you that he/she was "real".

If I had added "and I" you might not have thought I was on the outside shaking my head on this one.

I, also, was pointing out that if there was  [I'm assuming they he/she has passed away by now] a claimant/claimants,  he/she/they,  may not have been able to say,  "Here I am!"  If this is what happen than there might have been many reasons why the "real" claimant was lost not just to the CHEKA and the Ural Soviets but to the world up to this point in time.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 01, 2004, 09:30:15 AM
Tin hats and all, who would have most to gain from these pretenders and so many of them. Who actually knew that at least a couple of children survived?  It must have been the Government or organization.  All of them coming from somewhere in East Europe.  The more pretenders/claimants the story gets more ridiculous!  One's immediate reaction is - O God, not another one!

This is why we need to keep an open mind.

The murder remains unsolved and there are many questions to be answered.  One cannot close one's eyes to the possibility that there might actually be a descendant even today.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 01, 2004, 10:08:12 AM
The "murder" unsolved? With confessions and proof, crime scenes et al. Seems pretty solved to me.  No one was charged and brought to trial. That is the only open end to this "case".
Why "MUST" anyone keep an open mind at this point. What is the compelling reason ?  Imperial rainbow dreams, perhaps ?
I think the vast majority of the world's population goes to bed at night  with not a worry about Romanov ghosts stalking about, if they think about them at all.
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 01, 2004, 10:40:03 AM
Candice?

 "Who actually knew that a couple of the children survived?"

As far as I know - you are one of the few people here still believing in the survival of Romanov children and "grandchildren..."
Again I ask,  where is the DNA proof?

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 01, 2004, 11:11:51 AM
Robert, most of the information that has been filed as evidence is inconclusive.  On analysis Elizabeth's body did not provide the hoped-for match.  Also, as you say, no one was charged.  Photographs of unrecognisable bodies lying in the street and disinformation from biassed (manipulated?) military witnesses on the scene cannot be relied upon.  As for your comments against keeping an "open mind," I understood that 's what this website is all about.

Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 01, 2004, 11:24:28 AM
UMMMM
"No one was charged" with murder because the murderers were viewed as HEROES of the Bolshevik People's Revolution...They gladly and loudly bragged about their roles to anyone who would listen, for decades. Candice, if you really, I mean REALLY, read all the evidence, look at the hard facts, much much much much more is "conclusive" than you seem to believe, even to the most staunch "AA" supporters or even the "2 children" survived theorists....
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 01, 2004, 11:24:49 AM
Isn't it amazing what assumptions are drawn!  Two bodies are missing...therefore two survived?  Huh??

I still and will always say that those who weave the fairy tales do it because it hurts too much to face the facts.

And so de nile runs through Egypt and elsewhere.

As for this board being designed as a place to be openminded, I'm sorry, I don't get that, either.  This is a tribute site (to the Romanovs and Imperial Russia generally), a beautiful, extremely informative tribute site, that happens to have a discussion forum.

Maybe the FA can elaborate, but it seems to me that the idea behind the development of this site was to honor and preserve the era and people in question, not to speculate endlessly on various scenarios and improbabilities.  That the owners of this site *tolerate* such discussions demonstrates openmindedness, but it doesn't necessarily mean the owners think such speculations on survival of IF members is a good thing.

These, of course, are just my views and perceptions!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 01, 2004, 11:31:24 AM
rskkiya, it is the lack of evidence from the remains that gives rise to those theories that at least two children were spirited out through the Dardanelles to the Med.  This theory, as I have quoted earlier, has given rise to recent (2004) press articles on those lines (eg. Daily Telegraph). So I'm not the only person who is searching for further evidence on that hypothesis.

Regards
Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 01, 2004, 11:39:19 AM
Quote
IAs for this board being designed as a place to be openminded, I'm sorry, I don't get that, either.  This is a tribute site (to the Romanovs and Imperial Russia generally), a beautiful, extremely informative tribute site, that happens to have a discussion forum.

Maybe the FA can elaborate, but it seems to me that the idea behind the development of this site was to honor and preserve the era and people in question, not to speculate endlessly on various scenarios and improbabilities.  That the owners of this site *tolerate* such discussions demonstrates openmindedness, but it doesn't necessarily mean the owners think such speculations on survival of IF members is a good thing.

These, of course, are just my views and perceptions!


Since you asked.
This is NOT a "tribute" site. This site is devoted to the history of the Last Tsar of Russia and his family and Imperial Russia. Yes, the owner of the site is sympathetic to the IF, but, and this is a large but, the accurate history, good and bad is foremost.

Part of this history is the fact that two bodies are missing. While we, ourselves, "believe" beyond reasonable doubt that Alexei and either Anastasia or (in our opinion most probably) Marie died that night, other very reputable and credible historians raise their own doubts. So, this discussion is necessary, not merely "tolerated".

We do tolerate the "what if" discussions, since so many people enjoy them, but we do try to keep the genuine discussion of fact and scientifically supported theory separated from the truly hypothetical. Sometimes it gets a little murky.

At least, from my viewpoint, I do allow the forum discussions to be open minded, and try to keep my personal views put out there as "our opinion" and nothing more. If Im not doing that, then I apologize and want to be informed of exactly when Im imposing our beliefs upon the general discussion.
Thanks
FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 01, 2004, 11:45:28 AM
Candice

I would recomend that you take atvantage of the FA's good advice and examine all the sources... This site is a real treasure house, why not examine some new information here!

The Daily Telegram -- as I remember it -- was never the most  "academically sound" of journals. Even allowing for this, what is the Telegram's evidence? Or are they simply reporting on yet another case of "Survivor" stories?

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on October 01, 2004, 11:48:06 AM
Hey, FA, that was very nicely said!  I'm glad you guys think the fact that the two bodies missing needs to be discussed. :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 01, 2004, 11:53:44 AM
Where do I begin?

This investigation of what happen on the night of 16/17  July 1918 is not closed,  in case you hadn't noticed.

There are two bodies missing.

There may be contaminated DNA.

There are quarrels over a single finger.

There are eye witnesses who claimed they saw one,  some or all the Royal Family after that night.

Robert,  just look at your book shelf.  Their lives and mystery has captured your interest.  Only difference is,  you've been studying all this maybe longer than others and have found evidence that has placed you in a box called "desided".

This case is not closed because some of you have made up your minds about what happen that night.

Pehaps,  because the case is not close,  I think some of us have become amature dectectives who are poking around looking for evidence in hopes that we can come to some kind of  comfort zone and, we, too, can climb into a box called "desided".  Many of the posting here show how many have done their  sleuthing.

Since I wasn't even alive then, all I have are books and other data avaliable to the public.  And,  according to some of you,  I have a lot more books to read.

Until I make up my mind,  I continue to search, ask questions and keep an open mind.  There is no rush to make any decisions.

As for the exsistence of a "real" claimant or a desendant of a "real claimant",  I haven't a clue if one exsists or doesn't exsist.  All I know from 62 years of having lived that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

AGRBear


Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 01, 2004, 12:03:13 PM
ref: Reply 373 (FA) I don't think it is offensive to investigate the intriguing possibility of an 'escape'.  Interested people obviously keep doing that because of possible gaps in information, or inconsistencies in evidence, given that many royal heads of Europe would have loved to have contrived an escape, however covertly, as surely they would have expected their counterparts to have done for them in such horrific circumstances.  I think that if they did, that would indeed be "beautiful" (as you so nicely put it).  If this website could prove it either way, what a tribute to the web site and its contributors, whom I greatly respect.

Regards, Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 01, 2004, 12:10:16 PM
Agrbear

WHAT eyewitnesses?
People love to repeat that "eyewitnesses" saw one or two or more escape...but who are these witnesses? where are they are named... in which book? Were they ever cross-examined ?
Please give me a source that I can check!
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 01, 2004, 02:35:14 PM
Having studied this case for more than 25 years and having been exposed personally to a claimant (who is talented to the point that he has convinced scientists to stake their careers), and again, speaking only for myself, there simply isn't anything else to be considered.

It is a nice dreamscape to play in, if it's what's required for coping or for those who love the fantastic and the realm of "what if."

I've done all of that and still come back to what I and most others believe:  they were killed.  They were buried, some in one way, some in another.  The end.

As for my use of the term "tribute," I define the word as a synonym for "honor," so if there was confusion about that, sorry!

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 01, 2004, 02:52:18 PM
I think it is no secret that I agree with Dashkova. I find the whole Romanov saga of historical interest.  I certainly do not idolize them, and have  offered my critical opinion of them to the resounding shock from defaming ikonized demi-gods.
So be it.
If people wish to continue to search under beds for conspiricies and ghosts, they will. Nothing will convince them otherwise than that there is "something" to be found.
I am equally convinced that there is nothing to be found.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 01, 2004, 05:06:14 PM
Surprise!
  I agree with Dashkova and Mr. Hall (this is due to the fact that we are all the same person -- insert sinister menacing laughter! )LOL  ;)  (just joking)
  Angrbear or Candice, please do give me the name of any book which quotes the so called eyewitnesses to survivors.

Rskkiya

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 01, 2004, 05:16:29 PM
Go on over to the thread about Heinrich Kleibenzetl:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091980231;start=0#0

This is just one person who claimed he had seen Anastasia.

Also go over to this thread about other eye wittnesses:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 01, 2004, 07:33:28 PM
Agrbear

  Is the best that you can do-- to simply refer me to threads re: Summers and Mangold's opus and an untitled book by Kurth?

I want books dear... with authors and titles ?  OK?

  By the way, I am familiar with Summers and Mangolds work -- it is utter trash with no viable evidence whatsoever. I was so hoping for something better...

  And which of Kurth's books are we talking about?

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 01, 2004, 08:08:16 PM
Quote
Agrbear

   Is the best that you can do-- to simply refer me to threads re: Summers and Mangold's opus and an untitled book by Kurth?

I want books dear... with authors and titles ?  OK?

   By the way, I am familiar with Summers and Mangolds work -- it is utter trash with no viable evidence whatsoever. I was so hoping for something better...

   And which of Kurth's books are we talking about?

R



Did you read the theads before you hurried back to this thead to spew your opinions?  I think not.  Summers and Mangold were in touch with more information than most of us will ever see.  From what I understand from another poster who worked for them,  they are very careful and  do their homework  in what they write, and, I think they were the first ones to climb out of the box and look around for information which others seem to ignore.  Yes, they are out of date because they didn't know about the grave with the nine bodies.  As for Kurth,  he has been quite kind to answer questions on the forum.  He, too, has done his homework.  This Heinrich K. , whom he talks about, did testify in court in Berlin in the Ana Anderson case.

Dear Ryskkiya,  do you have information that proves Heinrich K. was lying?  I'd be interested in reading that information.

And,  what is it about Summers and Mangold which always seem to send you into a frenzy?   Do you have evidence that they were trying to mislead their readers?  If so,  please give us an example.

AGRBear



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 02, 2004, 03:50:05 PM
agrbear

I do know the Summers/Mangold book and as I have said here before-- it's a lot of rubbish and the sources are not reliable...Thats why I get tired of this book as the only source so many people offer up..I had hoped for a new reference.

I am still looking for the name of Kurth's book on the "witness". I don't like to rely on instant message/email documentation - I prefere a book with sources I can document and refer back to! Sorry if this sounds to "shrill" for you. Its a savage part of my primitive scholastic nature.

I am sorry if I was too brusque... I just expected more from you.

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2004, 04:00:32 PM
Quote
.. [in part]...

I am still looking for the name of Kurth's book on the "witness". I don't like to rely on instant message/email documentation - I prefere a book with sources I can document and refer back to! Sorry if this sounds to "shrill" for you. Its a savage part of my primitive scholastic nature.
R.


I don't have this book either.  Let me know what you find, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 02, 2004, 04:17:00 PM
Agrbear...

You don't know the name of Kurths book? I thought that you were recomending it!

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Michelle on October 02, 2004, 06:29:27 PM
Rskkiya, I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but I don't recall AGRBear referring you to this book that Kurth apparently wrote about some "witness."  She was only talking about Kurth's work in general.  I know how you love to scream at her and so I'm offering you some condolences. ;) ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 02, 2004, 06:59:41 PM
Michelle

;) ;) ;) ;) :-X :-X :-X ;D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2004, 10:16:36 AM
Ryskkyia-It is one thing having an opinion and it's another when you call books "rubbish".  Please prove this or stop trashing Summers and Mangold or any other book which do not fit your  views.
------

Back to the latest comment about claimants.

If the two missing bodies are one daughter and Alexei then why can't we assume they escaped and lived long enough to have a child or children?

Of course,  Alexei did have hemophilia and may not have lived longer than his early twenties.  As far as I know,  a male becomes sexual active and can produce before the age of twenty.

If  he or she did have a child or children then they are out there somewhere.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 04, 2004, 05:21:32 PM
agrbear

I have read this particular Summers& Mangolds book and in my scholarly oppinion there is no viable evidence in their claims. OK :)

Please just help me find the name of the book by Mr. Kurth which you have recomended...

You have complained about people at this site not being "nice enough"--so I am asking as nicely as I may... Please help me find  the title to this book!

the cat R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: ptitchka on October 04, 2004, 07:03:11 PM
Quote

------

Back to the latest comment about claimants.

If the two missing bodies are one daughter and Alexei then why can't we assume they escaped and lived long enough to have a child or children?]

Because it does not necessarily follow that the Tsarevich-Martyr and his sister survived simply because they were not in that particular grave.


[Of course,  Alexei did have hemophilia and may not have lived longer than his early twenties.  As far as I know,  a male becomes sexual active and can produce before the age of twenty.

If  he or she did have a child or children then they are out there somewhere.]

>>
Please remember if you must follow this line that younger folks read these messages...    You refer to a young boy as if he would have had the mindset typical of today's 18 and 19 year olds back in 1922-23.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 05, 2004, 09:56:15 AM
Quote
>>
Please remember if you must follow this line that younger folks read these messages...    You refer to a young boy as if he would have had the mindset typical of today's 18 and 19 year olds back in 1922-23.



There were many people whom we today would call children who in the yesterdays were not considered children.  It was not unusual for 15 to 17 years olds being wedded.

Today,  we would prefer our children do not have to follow the foot stepes of their forebearers and wed after they have gone to college.

We hope that all our children refrain from sexual actitivites until after mariage.

All said,  this doesn't change the fact  one of Nicholas II's daughters and Alexei, who's bodies are missing,  could have survived, wed and had children before they were twenty years old as GRBEAR suggested.

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 05, 2004, 10:03:00 AM
C1

Well yes.... anything is possible (the moon may be made of cheese  ;)) but not everything is probable!

It could have happened-- but then where is the evidence... I think we are all looking for the same thing, some sort of evidence.

the cat R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Merrique on October 05, 2004, 06:13:00 PM
I agree with Rskkiya.All this talk is meaningless unless you have the evidence to back them up.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 05, 2004, 06:42:58 PM
If the Bolshviks  destroyed all evidence that two children of Nicholas II escaped and then rewrote their version of what occured,   tell me how can I find any evidence?  

C1


Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 05, 2004, 06:49:05 PM
C1

DNA or mDNA evidence from the supposed "survivors" or their "children".... perhaps? I thought thats what you had suggested in the first place....what other evidence did you expect?

the cat R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 05, 2004, 06:53:43 PM
Or- there simply no evidence to be found to support your contentions. In that event you are basing them on conjecture mixed with wishful thinking & fantasy.
While those of us with opposing views are basing ours on investigations from the event itself through the present with volumes of researched, published and verified results. Perhaps?
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 06, 2004, 11:32:52 AM
OK! This is just too frustrating!!!

When we look at Nicholas's view of his position as Tsar, unlike his wife's view who always admonished him to ' ...be like Peter the Great...',etc., Nicholas 2nd instead wantd to tend to his vegetable garden, PERIOD!!!

Now I'm not saying he didn't try to be a good ruler obviously we have all read that his position, he believed, was ordained by God. He believed that he had a great responsibility to rule Russia responsibly! No question about that! BUT!

Given the opportunity to 'escape' from his cage or prison of responsibility I think he took it and didn't look back! He took it for himself and his family and didn't look back!!!

Ofcourse this view of thought hinges on my belief that some or all of them did escape.

I just think it extremely likely that the reason no-one has heard from them, be it from the 'two' who escaped or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. End of story!!!! I don't mean to be cynical. Just my oppinion. Best regards. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 11:43:50 AM
JonC wrote:

'or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. '


Oh, I think you have some ideas about this, don't you, Jon.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 06, 2004, 11:52:03 AM
Quote
OK! This is just too frustrating!!!

When we look at Nicholas's view of his position as Tsar, unlike his wife's view who always admonished him to ' ...be like Peter the Great...',etc., Nicholas 2nd instead wantd to tend to his vegetable garden, PERIOD!!!

Now I'm not saying he didn't try to be a good ruler obviously we have all read that his position, he believed, was ordained by God. He believed that he had a great responsibility to rule Russia responsibly! No question about that! BUT!

Given the opportunity to 'escape' from his cage or prison of responsibility I think he took it and didn't look back! He took it for himself and his family and didn't look back!!!

Ofcourse this view of thought hinges on my belief that some or all of them did escape.

I just think it extremely likely that the reason no-one has heard from them, be it from the 'two' who escaped or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. End of story!!!! I don't mean to be cynical. Just my oppinion. Best regards. JonC.


Oh good grief.  Are you serious?  Are you actually saying that Nicholas II escpaed from the Ipatiev House and "never looked back" and decided to settle down in obscurity as a turnip farmer or some such nonsense?

So fine...go ahead, disregard the remains that were identified as his, disregard the Ural Soviet (N II was the prize plum after all), disregard all facts and reality.  Never mind that Nicholas II was so loyal to Russia that he refused to leave when he had the chance, and chose to stay with his entire family.  And sure, Nicholas was such a carefree guy that he's have let his mother sit, poor and heartbroken, for the rest of her life in Denmark, while he pulls up weeds in your fantasy land.

My goodness.  Do you believe the moon is made of green cheese?  Do you believe the 1969 moon landing was all a hoax, just because you couldn't see it with your own eyes?  What more, exactly, would a mind as credulous as yours require in order to convince you that Nicholas II is dead?  And died in 1918, as a prisoner of the Bolsheviks?

We know that scientific evidence/DNA/bones don't cut it for you.  Historical and anecdotal evidence clearly doesn't pass muster with you.  What more, exactly, do you need?

I hope, for the state of all mankind, that you never have to sit as a member of a jury someday.  The concepts of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" or "preponderance of the evidence" are clearly outside your grasp.  

Edited to add: ARRRGGGGGGGHHH!

Edited again to add:  You're just a troll, JonC, aren't you?  'Fess up. Or perhaps you just hear the "distant sound of trumpets?"




Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 11:57:05 AM
Quote
C1

DNA or mDNA evidence from the supposed "survivors" or their "children".... perhaps? I thought thats what you had suggested in the first place....what other evidence did you expect?

the cat R.


So,  the cats are, now, going to surround me and Jon C.  I can't speak for Jon C. because I don't even know him.  However,  I guess I should be proud of the fact that I am going to be their new target.  ;D

Let me try to explain to the cats [male and female] and others about the Bolsheviks.

These people were cruel, vicious and willing to do more than cover up the truth.  They were capable of murdering eye witnesses.  They were capable of burning telegrams.  They were capable of threating eye witnesses who were foced to repeat what the Bolshviks wanted them to say....

Let me pause here and give one example:

When the chief eye witness Jacob Jurovsky  [Yacob Yurovsky] was dying,  the Bolsheviks were afraid he might lighten his soul and reveal the truths of what happen to the Royal Family, so,  the Bolsheviks/ communists  arrested his favorite daughter.  For insurance they probably made  farther threats which probably referred to the  arrest his sons....  There is rumor that a Bolshvik may have hurried Yurovsky's death.   No one noticed a man dying of cancer who just happen to have died a few months before he should have? If they did,  who was going to bring it up with anyone?

Entire families vanished under the Bolsheviks.  But who would complain?  If anyone dare to complain, well, they, too vanished.  Russians are not stupid people.  They quickly learned if they complained,  they would be next to vanish.

So,  it is complete fantasy if I or anyone else,  so long after the event of the executions,  think they could find evidence which the Bolsheviks / communists didn't want me, you or anyone else to find.

Who knows what the "cats" and other pro-communists will say about these truths or probibilities.  Whatever it is,  I could give you thousands of names of those who vanished for each of their propoganda dogma facts they have been trying to get the world to believe since 16 July 1918.

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 06, 2004, 12:05:41 PM
Quote
When the chief eye witness Jacob Jurovsky  [Yacob Yurovsky] was dying,  the Bolsheviks were afraid he might lighten his soul and reveal the truths of what happen to the Royal Family, so,  the Bolsheviks/ communists  arrested his favorite daughter.  For insurance they probably made  farther threats which probably referred to the  arrest his sons....  There is rumor that a Bolshvik may have hurried Yurovsky's death.   No one noticed a man dying of cancer who just happen to have died a few months before he should have? If they did,  who was going to bring it up with anyone?


More speculation? Please see my response to JonC above.

Quote
Who knows what the "cats" will say about these truths or probibilities.  Whatever it is,  I could give you thousands of names of those who vanished for each of their propoganda dogma facts they have been trying to get the world to believe since 16 July 1918


OK.  So start listing the names.  Or is this just more dramatic hyperbole to support your half-formed "theories?"
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 12:14:27 PM
Quote

So,  the cats are, now, going to surround me.  I guess I should be proud of the fact that I am going to be their new target.  ;D

Let me try to explain to the cats [male and female] about the Bolsheviks.

These people were cruel, vicious and willing to do more than cover up the truth.  They were capable of murdering eye witnesses.  They were capable of burning telegrams.  They were capable of threating eye witnesses who were foced to repeat what the Bolshviks wanted them to say....

Let me pause here and give one example:

When the chief eye witness Jacob Jurovsky  [Yacob Yurovsky] was dying,  the Bolsheviks were afraid he might lighten his soul and reveal the truths of what happen to the Royal Family, so,  the Bolsheviks/ communists  arrested his favorite daughter.  For insurance they probably made  farther threats which probably referred to the  arrest his sons....  There is rumor that a Bolshvik may have hurried Yurovsky's death.   No one noticed a man dying of cancer who just happen to have died a few months before he should have? If they did,  who was going to bring it up with anyone?

Entire families vanished under the Bolsheviks.  But who would complain?  If anyone dare to complain, well, they, too vanished.  Russians are not stupid people.  They quickly learned if they complained,  they would be next to vanish.

So,  it is complete fantasy if I or anyone else,  so long after the event of the executions,  think they could find evidence which the Bolsheviks / communists didn't want me, you or anyone else to find.

Who knows what the "cats" will say about these truths or probibilities.  Whatever it is,  I could give you thousands of names of those who vanished for each of their propoganda dogma facts they have been trying to get the world to believe since 16 July 1918.

C1
 


Ok, cats don't come when they're called, but here's one who happened to be online when you posted ;)

I'm not sure who you think you are, or by what authority  you are using to supposedly "educate" everyone else on this board (Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on your background) about Bolshevik atrocities. Of course we all know there were plenty.

But let me try and explain something to *you*, C1.
The same sorts of atrocities were committed against a great many people during the tsarist regime.  Splitting hairs over this and having a  ****ing contest over who was badder, is pointless.

What *is* important to point out is that it was the Bolsheviks who actually succeeded in reforms that alieviated centuries of suffering for most of the Russian population.  This they did by making available (for the first time, btw)  education, medical care, **infrastructure, for God's sake!**, pensions, decent housing, and much more.  It was NOT perfect by a long shot.  Many did "disappear" (particularly under Stalin), but life was WAY better for the *majority* of Russians than any time during the tsarist era.

Do you understand what I am saying here?

Bolshevik and Imperial regime = atrocities.

Imperial = no education, no medical care, no, well, no *nothing* for centuries. Unspeakable poverty was the norm.

Bolsheviks = though all far from perfect, the following: education, medical care and leave, pensions, decent housing (compared with tsarist era), child care, and more.  In other words:  a chance at a better life.

The Bolsheviks and Soviets ultimately failed.  But they tried.  And they made progress.  The tsars could not be bothered to do either.  That's a fact.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 06, 2004, 12:23:58 PM
I, for one, certainly won't deny that there were atrocities committed under the Bolshevik/Soviet regime, just as there were under Tsarism.  No one can be crueler to man than fellow man.  I think we will all agree on that.

C1 is implying in his/her post that thousands died to keep safe the secret of what really happened in July 1918, and speculating that "they" (it's always the ubiquitous "they" isn't it? "They" really get around) "probably" made further threats, yada, yada, yada.  And that kind of feverish, speculative, conspiracy theorizing is what I am calling bollocks on.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 12:29:01 PM
Ahhh, ok.  When I saw the "cat" reference my feline radar went up...lol.

Well, I think it's quite a stretch to suggest that there was a coverup and that people died protecting it.

Sheesh...kind of "DaVinci Code"ish.  Somebody's been reading too much Dan Brown.  I have a background in religion studies (not as a "believer" but as a historian), and that book, though it had some interesting ideas, was hogwash.

Just like the suggestion that there was some society/conspiracy to protect the "escaped" Romanovs.  I suppose the next thing we'll hear is that the CIA gave them all new identities, and that FDR and Henry Ford brought them to America ;)  Hmmm...it all sounds SO familiar.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 12:34:29 PM
I'll be more than happy to supply names.  In fact,  I'll start with a list of villagers of just one village in the Ukraine.  While I'm gone to get the names let me provide you with some of the story.

The visitor from another village found a village nearby void of  all of it's people.

Evidently,  the Bolsheviks had entered the village at dinner time.  Food was left stilll cooking on the stoves, bread was still in the ovens....  Half eaten plates of food was on the tables....

The dogs, cats and other creatures were still there but no people.  No old people.  No babies in the crib.

In those days,  the villager  did  not need much imagination to know what happen.

I'm not sure how many people were in this village.  But I will find the names  and  I will place the names on a different thread.  Also, if I can get permission I'll provide the story I had read on another web site.
----

Back to this thread about claimants.

Jon C.  has presented the idea that if one or all escaped,  that the one or all did not want it to be known they were still alive.

I believe the Dowager Empress stated more than once that she knew for a fact that both her sons Nicholas II and Michael were still alive.  Some would have you believe that this, too, was a fantasy of an old woman who wanted to believe her sons were alive.  Maybe.  Then, again, maybe not.   Heck,  if the Bolsheviks had tried to kill me once,  I don't think I'd give them a second chance.  By this time,  Russia was smothered in the kind of hatred which Olga, above on another thread [see quote below]  toward the Queen of England.  So, what was the point for them to return to the public eye.   I wouldn't be surprised if their descendants,  if there were any, were ever aware their grandfather was ever Emp/Tsar of Russia.

C1

PS  Olga's quote:
Quote
I have not served in the forces but I honour his memory by continuing the tradition by being a Royalist.
You do this just because your father did? Aren't you your own person? Are you not able to think for yourself?

And another abrasive little secret, I go horse racing a lot and when I pass the Queen [HM The Queen is at most of the big meetings] I bow, I bow to her and her Office.


Do you see lots of upper class bluebloods there? The Queen is nothing more than an archaicfigurehead who symbolises British Imperialism and the grossly unjust class system. Why should she live in  a wonderful palace, have people bowing and kissing her shadow just because she was born into that position?

                                                                                             

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.  ;D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 12:40:23 PM
Quote
I'll be more than happy to supply names.  In fact,  I'll start with a list of villagers of just one village in the Ukraine.  While I'm gone to get the names let me provide you with some of the story.

The visitor from another village found a village nearby void of  all of it's people.

Evidently,  the Bolsheviks had entered the village at dinner time.  Food was left stilll cooking on the stoves, bread was still in the ovens....  Half eaten plates of food was on the tables....

The dogs, cats and other creatures were still there but no people.  No old people.  No babies in the crib.

In those days,  the villager  did  not need much imagination to know what happen.

I'm not sure how many people were in this village.  But I will find the names  and  I will place the names on a different thread.  Also, if I can get permission I'll provide the story I had read on another web site.
----

C1



C1, you seem determined to hold a ****ing contest anyway.  It is pointless. Every story you can throw out about the Bolsheviks,there are those of us here who can throw back three times as many about the cruelty of the tsarist regime.  Interesting how you avoid acknowledging it was the Bolsheviks that made reforms happen.  Blindly loyal imperialists do that, though.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 01:09:36 PM
Contest?  This is not a contest.

What has occured is simple,  there are a few of you who have chase away some very interesting posters.  I've seen it happen again and again....  I just sat back and did nothing.  Now,  I feel ashamed that I didn't say something.  Oh, I had some good exused not to get into this,  such as:  "I didn't have time." or "I just didn't want to be bothered." or "Who cares?".  So,  here I am, because I do care.  Course,  I really don't have the time to match each posting like I am today.  But,  I will be around.

This is a thread about "Serious Claimants".  If you'd like to debate the history about the Revolution under the Red and White  thread,  that's great.  I'll jump over there and we can continue.

Meanwhile,  why don't you cats and those who are not cats [I know I am in the minority],  because I'm not asking all of you to believe in my opinions,  talk about how wrong you think I am about the Bolsheviks whom some of you believe would never have destroyed a document or killed an eyewitness to the events surrounding the missing two bodies of Nicholas II's children.

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 01:51:48 PM
C1, Here is where you went off topic (copied and pasted from above):

"So,  the cats are, now, going to surround me and Jon C.  I can't speak for Jon C. because I don't even know him.  However,  I guess I should be proud of the fact that I am going to be their new target.  

Let me try to explain to the cats [male and female] and others about the Bolsheviks.

These people were cruel, vicious and willing to do more than cover up the truth. "

The only way this could be responded to was where you made the above assertions.  Yes, you *did* bring the bolshevik vs. imperial into this thread.  Since you are so keen to discuss this aspect, I'll look for your further posts on this subject in the Russian Revolution folder.

If you tie the Bolshevik/Imperial debate with the ultimate fate of the Romanovs, expect to see responses here as well!

And BTW, nobody ran anyone away from here.  Some people enter this forum and immediately post on threads that are **obviously** controversial! What's amazing is that some of these same people plead shock, hurt and dismay to discover that someone might possibly *challenge* their views.  Some can't handle it and leave.  That isn't anybody's fault, it's either an unwillingness to debate an already well-established controversial issue, a lack of knowledge or in some cases, closemindedness.

There are plenty of other folders and threads here that deal with far less controversial topics.  Those who would wish no opposition to their views should maybe have a look in those threads first!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 02:06:52 PM
C1 wrote:
 "talk about how wrong you think I am about the Bolsheviks whom some of you believe would never have destroyed a document or killed an eyewitness to the events surrounding the missing two bodies of Nicholas II's children."

Well, of course it's possible! I don't think anybody denies that!  The point is:  dead is dead, and just because certain document *may* have been destroyed doesn't change that.
You are operating on the assumption that two are missing because two escaped/survived, and there is no solid evidence that such a scenario took place.

Hey, maybe the "missing documents" read something like this:
"Two of the children were found to be living, kept for two days, then they died and were buried under the house where they died"

But that doesn't fit your fantasy, does it?



Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 06, 2004, 04:09:35 PM
C1    sigh

   Look the cat remark was just a lark (I do like cats ;D) but nothing else-- so please try not to let it get to you so!
   Why do you think that someone survived? Because its a "cool idea"? Ok- fine. Is there any evidence for this notion such as children of "survivors" ?  Ok -where is the DNA evidence ? If there were no children... i.e. the daughters escaped but died of exposure 3 months later in someones barn...Ok - what can show that ...a letter?a "Secret Report" to the Cheka? An old family story?
   If you want us to discuss this with you politely please explain your idea and evidence. But if you just like the idea of survivors and have no evidence -- well thats ok too -- its called a pleasant fantasy, one for personal reflection but not really one to post here and expect everyone to agree with.
   You may not  believe this C1-- but the people here are not spies for the Soviets, ;) nor are they out just to torment you! I think in all honesty that if someone really had the evidence for a 'survivor" we would all be thrilled but so many times its just a story completely unsubstantiated with facts. Many of us may have gotten burned before.

JonC
  You really must think that Nicholas was a hateful man if you would suggest that by creating a "new life for himself and possibly his children"  he would willfully allow his mother and his relatives to go on mourning for him.  I don't really care for Nicholas and even I would not suggest that!

Rskkiya

PS --C1 if you were looking for BB I think that he's still here.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 04:15:47 PM
Quote
C1 wrote:

Well, of course it's possible! I don't think anybody denies that!

Hey, maybe the "missing documents" read something like this:
"Two of the children were found to be living, kept for two days, then they died and were buried under the house where they died"

But that doesn't fit your fantasy, does it?



I am pleased Leo "the Lion", also,  known as Dashkova,  no longer thinks it impossible that the two of the Romanov children might have survived,  and,   that they might have been alive two days after the  July 17, 1917.   ;D

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 04:19:26 PM
Every one of my posts on this thread sails right over your head, don't they?

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 06, 2004, 04:24:08 PM
C1

Anything is possible-- but many things are NOT probable.
Please explain why you think that two (or more) survived even for a few days? Checka Report #12321AZ  Two bodies found in Ivan Ivanovich Fillilipov's kitchen garden? Please give us a source!  Records from the Urals socialist commitee meetings January  1917- December 1921?

Ok?

poor kitty cat Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 04:26:00 PM
Quote

#the daughters escaped but died of exposure 3 months later in someones barn...Ok - what can show that ...a letter?a "Secret Report" to the Cheka? An old family story?
Rskkiya


Just "3 months",  why not make it 4 months or 9 months?

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 06, 2004, 04:28:51 PM
C1

Its your fantasy you create the "information."

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 04:32:24 PM
Rskkiya, I think we've got a hopeless case here.  C1 wants **desperately** to believe in this fantasy.  He/She cannot back it up whatsoever, but there is much foot stamping and hurt feelings when anyone questions the fantasy.
You know...

[glb]LaLa Land! Wheeee![/glb]
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 06, 2004, 04:39:30 PM
C1
Noone here has suggested that the Bolshevics were angels--- so what is your point? Where is the evidence? Show me the evidence! Any evidence! Please!

If you want to beat up on revolutionaries do visit the Russian Revolution thread.
If you have a theory-- then explain it.

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 06, 2004, 06:50:51 PM
C1, JonC, AGRBear, BB and I do quote and refer to books and articles written by scientists and historians, etc.  However, none of the books that we have read and refer to are acceptible to you.  

Just like you  the people that you discredit are possibly just as qualified as you with their University accredited degrees. This is a web site and a discussion forum on the history and lives of the Romanovs for all regardless of their education.  For most it is just an interest in Russian History of IF and their descendants. Not a degree challenge!

One querry I have is, that you believe what the Russians reported in their investigation, which was only hear say. What was said or what somebody thought he saw, is pure speculation in my opinion.  But the Russians documented that to be solid evidence, so in your mind, it must be true. Plus photographs of dead bodies which in my view cannot be identified as IF members. The Russians documented that as evidence?  

It all has been very interesting to read and in some cases there might be some truth to part of the investigation that took place. It's knowing what information is credible and what is false.  I think this is important.  In my opinion, from all that has been written it is important to read between the lines and try and see a different angle and not be distracted by the reporter or the writer's opinion.

I do believe that some of the family members did survive and they must have been  terrified for their lives and their survival, for very good reason.  The family that was important to Nicholas and his family did know their whereabouts, as Empress Marie always stated and believed.  

Regards
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 06, 2004, 07:36:45 PM
Candice...

OK :) fair enough! Please do list some books (with authors) for me to check out of the library...
Although I have read Summers & Mangolds book ( I find that one very unreliable !) - I would be truly interested in any other sources that you should like to suggest.

I am quite serious. Please just list the books/articles/ magazines in one or two posts --- I sadly am running out of time to spend here! You might not believe me,  but honestly I am willing to see your evidence and examine it fairly.

R. :D
Title: nRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 06, 2004, 08:07:08 PM
Just what, prey tell, were these so-called "survivors" hiding from?  Not one Romanov of any ilk was chased down/after by the Soviet "agents". In full view, bemoaning their losses, begging at the courts of Europe, selling their tales of woe, flying their own flags, all quite openly.
And now ? Just what is the threat now? The family cannot even agree amongst the living who is a valid representative !
The Emperor, perhaps could have been a legiitmate political target- if he was indeed alive. However, there were no Soviets agents after this "phantom" either. Why ? Because they knew full well he was already dead.
What would be a valid reason to hide, conspire, cover-up such a welcome fate of salvation from the bloddy maw of that execution chamber ?
Speaking of which, for those religous amongst the "survivorists", the Orthodox church, both inside and outside of Russia is not in the habit of making martyrs out of those who did not die. That is a prerequisite of the title itself.
One another point, it is most annoying to be called a "pro-communist" or "Bolshie sympathiser" simply because  some feel your agruments are simplistic, at best. I was about to sharpen my [cat] claws, but the comment "McCarthyism was not all that bad" sort of explained the mindset we are dealing with. Says a lot about the debate skills and open minds of the dissenting faction.
Cheers,
Robert

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 08:59:19 PM
Do you think all this hissing, clawing, and, attempt of redirection could have been because I suggested the survival length of 9 months -- the time it would have taken for a child to have been carried and born by the daughter who's body is missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow?

C1

#1-NOTE:  Ralph,  you are not a part of the 3 cat act.  So,  please excuse me if I don't answer your posting at this moment.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 09:08:24 PM
Quote
Do you think all this hissing, clawing, and, attempt of redirection could have been because I suggested the survival length of 9 months -- the time it would have taken for a child to have been carried and born by the daughter who's body is missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow?

C1

#1-NOTE:  Ralph,  you are not a part of the 3 cat act.  So,  please excuse me if I don't answer your posting at this moment.


LOL!!! *Too, TOO* funny, C1!
Oi, Ryskkiya, catch the nine month part?  What did I tell you?

And as an aside...Robert, I am *very* sorry some members here persist in calling you "Ralph"?  Where in the world do they get this idea?  My apologies that you are not part of the cat contingent.

Regards from Dashkova, the cat that ate the canary.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 06, 2004, 09:14:58 PM
Hmmmm, interesting. C1 & AGRBear seem to share a problem with appelations beginning with "R".
Cheers,
R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 09:19:17 PM
Quite an observation! Robert, I think maybe you are a cat after all.  ;)
Title: Re: nRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 10:19:05 PM
Ralph must have written the following because it doesn't read like one of Robert's posting.  

Quote
Just what, prey tell, were these so-called "survivors" hiding from?  Not one Romanov of any ilk was chased down/after by the Soviet "agents". In full view, bemoaning their losses, begging at the courts of Europe, selling their tales of woe, flying their own flags, all quite openly.
And now ? Just what is the threat now? The family cannot even agree amongst the living who is a valid representative !
The Emperor, perhaps could have been a legiitmate political target- if he was indeed alive. However, there were no Soviets agents after this "phantom" either. Why ? Because they knew full well he was already dead.
What would be a valid reason to hide, conspire, cover-up such a welcome fate of salvation from the bloddy maw of that execution chamber ?
Speaking of which, for those religous amongst the "survivorists", the Orthodox church, both inside and outside of Russia is not in the habit of making martyrs out of those who did not die. That is a prerequisite of the title itself.
One another point, it is most annoying to be called a "pro-communist" or "Bolshie sympathiser" simply because  some feel your agruments are simplistic, at best. I was about to sharpen my [cat] claws, but the comment "McCarthyism was not all that bad" sort of explained the mindset we are dealing with. Says a lot about the debate skills and open minds of the dissenting faction.
Cheers,
Robert




Robert knows the Bolsheviks would have hunted the Imperial Family members down until they found them and executed them.

Robert knows that a number of Grand Dukes did not escape Russia and were  executed.  Once the Romanovs did escape Russia,  it was more difficult to murder  them in a foreign country.

Robert,  I don't know anything about the Orthodox Church and their inner workings.

And, Robert and the rest of us know it's  true,  the Romanovs "outside" of Russia do have a struggel with the succession of the throne which is being discussed on another thread.

As for the name calling,  I believe the "3 cats" and "Ralph" was started with AGRBEAR and the " "Bolshie sympathiser" labeled his/her self. [I don't recall who called themselves this].

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 06, 2004, 10:36:53 PM
For one so curious, it is amazing you do not look up and see what is flying right over your head.
The point being made was- no Romanovs were chased down by Soviet assasins- OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA !
Of course any fool with a title who stayed in Russia was easy target practice.
Also, despite overwhelming lack of political support, there was no dearth of open doors for Romanov refugees.
The post stands as signed,
Robert
{who the blank is RALPH ?}
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 10:45:05 PM
Quote
...
I am quite serious. Please just list the books/articles/ magazines in one or two posts --- I sadly am running out of time to spend here! You might not believe me,  but honestly I am willing to see your evidence and examine it fairly.

R. :D


Over on another thread I found this quote of Penny Wilson who talked about Yurovsky, his death and daughter:

Quote
Rimma Yurovskaya was a devoted follower of Lenin, even receiving the Order of Lenin in 1930 for her outstanding services to the party.

As Stalin became increasingly insane, he began targeting old Bolsheviks and Lenin devotees who had not transferred their dedication to himself.  Rimma was picked up on charges of counter-revolutionary activity in 1933 or 1934.  Yurovsky certainly knew of her arrest and internment, though he was already sick with the cancer that killed him.  Because of the timing, however, there are those who believe that Yurovsky was hospitalized in the Kremlin in order to ensure that he did not make a recovery.  There is no evidence that he was actively murdered, however.

Rimma Yakovlevna was in and out of prison camps for just about twenty years.  Her final release was in the early fifties, but she did not receive her pardon until the mid-70s.  At that time, she was considered fully rehabilitated, and her Order of Lenin was returned to her.

I can understand that she was arrested under false charges, and imprisoned by Stalin for pretty much the erst of his life, but I have no idea why it took so long to pardon her.  Twenty or twenty-five years seems a little excessive -- but maybe there was a form of "probation" after having been in prison for so long.  Certainly, I can imagine that she was considered suspect for a long time afterwards.  I'm afraid I don't know very much about life in the Soviet Union after WWII....


Apparently,  I am not the only one who has wondered about this:
"Yurovsky certainly knew of her arrest and internment, though he was already sick with the cancer that killed him.  Because of the timing, however, there are those who believe that Yurovsky was hospitalized in the Kremlin in order to ensure that he did not make a recovery.  There is no evidence that he was actively murdered, however."

C1

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 06, 2004, 11:07:36 PM
I don't know whether Stalin had Yurovsky murdered or not, but if he did, it would be keeping in character.  See, this is just another example of "reaching" and trying to make certain things fit, i.e.:  *If* Yurovsky was done away with/disappeared, it was because it was feared he would "reveal" the "truth" about the escape of Nickolai et al.

But there was no reason to Stalin's madness, ok?  He went after *everybody*, starting with (by the time he took power the aristocracy and small middle class were gone) the Kulaks, then the "wreckers" and then with Kirov's murder Stalin went totally nuts going after Bolsheviks, comrades, friends, loyal party members from all walks of life.  We of course, also know he even sent agents abroad and tracked down Trotsky!  But not any Romanovs!

(oh, but according to Litwin, he DID, in Michigan, where the family was supposedly living all cozy with Henry Ford.  The alleged attempt was mostly unsuccessful but after that the family scattered. So saith the distant trumpet Tsar.  I am sure there are others who will speculate similarly, but there isn't any evidence of such murders/attempted murders of secreted Romanovs abroad!)

The point is, saying that: "Oh, Stalin went after Yurovsky...see, see?? You know what *that* means!"

Well, it doesn't mean anything, if you've ever studied Stalin as much as I  and others have. The man was a diagnosed paranoid (he had the diagnosing doctor killed, btw) -- if he suspected anything on Yurovsky, well, hey, join the club, Yakov! He was there along with just about everyone else in Russia during the Stalin era.

And, like Robert (and yes Robert, I still don't know who this "Ralph" is that is referred to) I stand by everything I've posted, including the implication of one *rather* transparent poster among us!
No wait...make that *two*.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 06, 2004, 11:52:22 PM
I believe Lenin was still in power.  I don't know of anyone who has linked the Imperial deaths to Stalin.  However, Stalin was around.  Wonder where he was in July of 1918?

I'm sure someone will tell us.

Just like I hope AGRBEAR tells us why she ever called Robert "Ralph".

Yawn.

Past my bedtime.

It was a fun day.  Thanks.
Good night All

Be back when I can :-*

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 12:01:18 AM
"C1" wrote:
I believe Lenin was still in power.

Um...you *were* referencing the Penny Wilson post which read:
"As Stalin became increasingly insane, he began targeting old Bolsheviks and Lenin devotees who had not transferred their dedication to himself.  Rimma was picked up on charges of counter-revolutionary activity in 1933 or 1934.  Yurovsky certainly knew of her arrest and internment, though he was already sick with the cancer that killed him.  Because of the timing, however, there are those who believe that Yurovsky was hospitalized in the Kremlin in order to ensure that he did not make a recovery.  There is no evidence that he was actively murdered, however."

Please note that STALIN was the Soviet leader at this time.  C1, your posts don't make a lot of sense.  What sort of point are you making?

"C1" wrote:
 I don't know of anyone who has linked the Imperial deaths to Stalin.  However, Stalin was around.  Wonder where he was in July of 1918?

**Again, I was responding to your previous post that spoke of Stalin's involvement with a possible Yurovsky murder/imprisonment?

And...
Just like I hope AGRBEAR tells us why she ever called Robert "Ralph".

**Cough** Yep, right.  I bet she makes a guest appearance in the near future.

And...
Past my bedtime.

**Based on your recent posts, I am sure you would need some rest.  I am not being facetious here, PLEASE go back and try to be more clear in what you're saying or there is no way anyone can have reasoned dialogue with you!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 12:05:56 AM
AGRBear:

I don't think this is relevant, but since you asked about Stalin's whereabouts in 1918, from July onward, here it is:

July 7 V. I. Lenin and J. V. Stalin exchange telegrams on the revolt of the "Left" Socialist-Revolutionaries.
In a letter to V. I. Lenin, J. V. Stalin informs him of the military situation in the Tsaritsyn area and about Turkestan.
July 8 J. V. Stalin writes to S. Shaumyan in Baku on the home and foreign policies of the RSFSR and Azerbaijan.
July 10 In a letter to V. I. Lenin, J. V. Stalin protests against the orders of Trotsky which were leading to the collapse of the Tsaritsyn Front and the loss of the North Caucasian region.
July 15 J. V. Stalin wires the People's Commissariat of Military Affairs urging the rendering of immediate aid to Soviet Turkestan.
July 17 After an inspection of the Tsaritsyn Front, J. V. Stalin wires V. I. Lenin reporting his findings.
July 18 J. V. Stalin informs V. I. Lenin by direct wire that between July 12 and 16 five trainloads of food have been sent to Moscow.
July 19 A Military Council of the North Caucasian Military Area is set up, headed by J. V. Stalin.
July 20 In a telegram to S. Shaumyan, J. V. Stalin, on behalf of the A.R.C.E.C. and the Council of People's Commissars, insists that the Baku Soviet pursue an independent foreign policy and vigorously combat agents of foreign capitalism.
July 24 J. V. Stalin discusses with V. I. Lenin by direct wire the food situation in Moscow and Petrograd.
August 4 In a letter to V. I. Lenin, J. V. Stalin informs him of the military and food situation in the South.
August 6 J. V. Stalin signs an order of the North Caucasian Military Council on the reorganization of all agencies engaged in supplying the front.
August 8 J. V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov. who are at Kotelnikovo Station, give orders to the commander of the southern sector of the Tsaritsyn Front for the transfer of forces in connection with the offensive of the Krasnov bands.
August 13 J. V. Stalin signs an order of the Military Council proclaiming a state of siege in the city and Gubernia of Tsaritsyn.
August 14 J. V. Stalin signs an order of the Military Council mobilizing the bourgeois of Tsaritsyn for the digging of trenches.
August 17 J. V. Stalin wires to Parkhomenko in Moscow informing him that the situation on the Tsaritsyn Front has improved.
August 19 J. V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov are at Sarepta in connection with the military operations at the front.
August 24 J. V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov sign the operations order for the offensive on the Tsaritsyn Front.
August 26 In connection with the need for armoured cars at the front, J. V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov sign an order for the reorganization of the Tsaritsyn ordnance works.
August 31 J.V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov send a telegram to Y. M. Sverdlov. Chairman of the A.R.C.E.C., in connection with the villainous attempt on the life of V. I. Lenin.
September 6 J.V. Stalin informs the Council of People's Commissars by wire of the success of the Soviet offensive in the Tsaritsyn area.
September 8 J. V. Stalin wires V. I. Lenin informing him that a counter-revolutionary revolt of the Gruzoles Regiment organized in Tsaritsyn by the Socialist-Revolutionaries has been suppressed.
September 10 At a meeting in Tsaritsyn, J.V. Stalin, on behalf of the Council of People's Commissars and the North Caucasian Military Council, congratulates the regiments which distinguished themselves in action at Tsaritsyn and presents them with banners inscribed: "For Military Valour."
September 12 J. V. Stalin leaves for Moscow to report to V. I. Lenin on the situation on the Southern Front.
September 15 V. I. Lenin, Y. M. Sverdlov and J.V. Stalin confer on questions concerning the Tsaritsyn Front.
September 17 J.V. Stalin is appointed Chairman of the newly-formed Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front.
September 19 J. V. Stalin examines questions of the composition and activities of the Collegium of the People's Commissariat for the Affairs of Nationalities.
V. I. Lenin and J. V. Stalin wire congratula-tions to the revolutionary troops of the Tsaritsyn Front.
September 31 Izvestia publishes an interview with J.V. Stalin on the situation on the Tsaritsyn Front.
September 22 J. V. Stalin returns to Tsaritsyn from Moscow.
September 28 J.V. Stalin presides at the first meeting of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front, where the question is discussed of dividing the military units of the front into four armies.
October 3 J.V. Stalin and K. E. Voroshilov send a telegram to V. I. Lenin demanding that the Central Committee discuss the activities of Trotsky which menace the Southern Front with collapse.
October 6 J. V. Stalin again leaves for Moscow.
October 8 By decision of the Council of People's Commissars J. V. Stalin is appointed a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic.
October 11 J. V. Stalin returns to Tsaritsyn from Moscow.
J. V. Stalin informs Y. M. Sverdlov by direct wire of the situation on the Tsaritsyn Front.
October 16 A "Letter to the Poor Peasants of the Don," signed by J. V. Stalin and other members of the Military Council, is printed in the newspaper Soldat Revolutsii, No. 58.
October 18 J. V. Stalin wires V. I. Lenin informing him of the rout of Krasnov's armies at Tsaritsyn.
October 19 J. V. Stalin leaves Tsaritsyn for Moscow.
October 22 J. V. Stalin wires congratulations to the revolutionary regiments which routed the white-guard forces at Tsaritsyn.
At the Second Congress of the Ukrainian Communist Party (Bolsheviks) J. V. Stalin is elected a member of its Central Committee.
October 29 J. V. Stalin addresses a plenary meeting of the Moscow Soviet on the situation on the Southern Front.
J. V. Stalin's article, "The Logic of Facts (In Reference to the 'Theses' of the Central Committee of the Mensheviks)," is printed in Pravda, No. 234.
November 6 J. V. Stalin's article, "The October Revolution (October 24 and 25, 1917, in Petrograd)," is printed in Pravda, No. 241.
November 6-9 J. V. Stalin takes part in the work of the Sixth Extraordinary All-Russian Congress of Soviets.
November 9 The Sixth Extraordinary All-Russian Congress of Soviets elects J. V. Stalin a member of the A.R.C.E.C.
November 11 On behalf of the C.C., RCP(B), J. V. Stalin greets the First Congress of Moslem Communists in Moscow.
November 13 The All-Russian Central Executive Committee elects J. V. Stalin a member of its Presidium.
November 17 J. V. Stalin's article, "Partition Wall," is printed in Zhizn Natsionalnostei, No. 2.
November 24 J. V. Stalin's article, "Don't Forget the East," Is printed in Zhizn Natsionalnostei, No. 3.
November 30 J. V. Stalin is appointed a member and Vice-Chairman of the Council of Workers' and Peasants' Defense.
December 1 J. V. Stalin speaks in the discussion at the first meeting of the Council of Workers' and Peasants' Defense.
V. I. Lenin and J. V. Stalin arc empowered by the Council of Defense to endorse the decisions of its commissions.
December 3 J. V. Stalin presides at a meeting of the Council of Defense commission on improving railway transport.
December 7 The Council of People's Commissars approves a decree drafted by J. V. Stalin recognizing the independence of the Estland Soviet Republic.
December 11 At a meeting of the Council of Defense, J. V. Stalin makes reports on improving railway transport, on political agitation work in, and the appointment of commissars to, divisions in process of formation, and on the quartering of military units.
December 22 J. V. Stalin's article, "Things Are Moving," is printed in Zhizn Natsionalnostei, No. 7.
December 25 J. V. Stalin discusses the state structure of Byelorussia with responsible officials of the Byelorussian National Commissariat.
J. V. Stalin gives instructions by direct wire to Myasnikov in Smolensk on the organization of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Byelorussian C.P.(B).
December 29 J. V. Stalin reports on the food situation in the war area at a meeting of the Council of Defense.
December 30 On V. I. Lenin's recommendation, the C.C., RCP(B) decides to send J. V. Stalin to the Eastern Front.

Spokone noche!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on October 07, 2004, 05:41:12 AM
Due to different timezones, I seem to have missed out on some of the fun.  ;D

Quote
I just think it extremely likely that the reason no-one has heard from them, be it from the 'two' who escaped or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!!


The reason nobody heard from them was because they were dead. D.E.D.

Quote
Who knows what the "cats" and other pro-communists will say about these truths or probibilities.  Whatever it is,  I could give you thousands of names of those who vanished for each of their propoganda dogma facts they have been trying to get the world to believe since 16 July 1918.


A list with genuine references would be nice, pazhalsta.

Quote
I believe the Dowager Empress stated more than once that she knew for a fact that both her sons Nicholas II and Michael were still alive.


Maybe it was because she couldn't accept the truth.

Quote
I believe Lenin was still in power.  


While he was dead? He must have been talented.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Just for the record, I'd rather be a zmeika.

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 09:59:07 AM
Quote
Candice...

OK :) fair enough! Please do list some books (with authors) for me to check out of the library...
Although I have read Summers & Mangolds book ( I find that one very unreliable !) - I would be truly interested in any other sources that you should like to suggest.

I am quite serious. Please just list the books/articles/ magazines in one or two posts --- I sadly am running out of time to spend here! You might not believe me,  but honestly I am willing to see your evidence and examine it fairly.

R. :D


C1/ Candice/ JonC/ Agrbear  anyone...
Give me some book titles and authors and I will be willing to examine and discuss the evidence. However if you won't- or can't- do that much... well
then this is rather pointless isnt it....
Rskkiya  
Title: Re: nRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 07, 2004, 10:21:07 AM
1. Ralph must have written the following because it doesn't read like one of Robert's posting.  
- WHO the devil is "Ralph"? If you don't identify him, I'll ask you to stop using this name.

2. Robert knows the Bolsheviks would have hunted the Imperial Family members down until they found them and executed them.
- Under which specific circumstances? in the middle of the Civil War, or later?

3. Robert knows that a number of Grand Dukes did not escape Russia and were  executed.  Once the Romanovs did escape Russia,  it was more difficult to murder  them in a foreign country.
- Proved by the fact that NOT ONE was murdered in exile. Unlike Trotsky....
Who was someone they DID want dead. So clearly they didnt CARE about the survivors. QED.

4.  Robert,  I don't know anything about the Orthodox Church and their inner workings.
-Perhaps you SHOULD so you could participate in an informed manner.

5. And, Robert and the rest of us know it's  true,  the Romanovs "outside" of Russia do have a struggel with the succession of the throne which is being discussed on another thread.
-Which is a purely hypothetical discussion since there is virtually NO chance that Russia will choose a monarchy again, much less offer the throne to some long distant Romanov descendant born in a foreign country.

6. As for the name calling,  I believe the "3 cats" and "Ralph" was started with AGRBEAR and the " "Bolshie sympathiser" labeled his/her self. [I don't recall who called themselves this].
ALL THE NAME CALLING stops here. AND I will ask the "cat" references to please STOP as well, as that is just another way of keeping that part of the discussion going.
Title: Re: nRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 10:35:17 AM
Quote
J... AGRBear has added numbers to Robert's posting]...
(1)Just what, prey tell, were these so-called "survivors" hiding from?  Not one Romanov of any ilk was chased down/after by the Soviet "agents".
(2)In full view, bemoaning their losses, begging at the courts of Europe, selling their tales of woe, flying their own flags, all quite openly.
(3) And now ? Just what is the threat now? The family cannot even agree amongst the living who is a valid representative !
(4) The Emperor, perhaps could have been a legiitmate political target- if he was indeed alive. However, there were no Soviets agents after this "phantom" either. Why ? Because they knew full well he was already dead.
(5) What would be a valid reason to hide, conspire, cover-up such a welcome fate of salvation from the bloddy maw of that execution chamber ?
(6) Speaking of which, for those religous amongst the "survivorists", the Orthodox church, both inside and outside of Russia is not in the habit of making martyrs out of those who did not die. That is a prerequisite of the title itself.
(7)One another point, it is most annoying to be called a "pro-communist" or "Bolshie sympathiser" simply because  some feel your agruments are simplistic, at best.
(8) I was about to sharpen my [cat] claws, but the comment "McCarthyism was not all that bad" sort of explained the mindset we are dealing with. Says a lot about the debate skills and open minds of the dissenting faction.
Cheers,
Robert



(1)  Just what, prey tell, were these so-called "survivors" hiding from?  Not one Romanov of any ilk was chased down/after by the Soviet "agents"

Robert please read the following from A People's Tragedy by Figes p. 642:

"A tour of the Cheka, " [CHEKA], "jails would reveal a vast array of different people.  One former inmate of the Butyrka jail in Moscow recalls seeing politicians, ex-judges, merchants, traders, officers, prostitutes, children, priests, professors, students, poets, dissident workers and peasants -- in short a cross-section of society.  The Petrograd poetess Gipius wrote that 'there was literally not a single family that had not had someone seized, taken away, or disappear completely' as a results of the Red Terror...."

I and you know that the Bolsheviks murdered every Romanovs in Petrograd, Moscow, Ekaterinburg and Alalpaevsk.....  they could.  When they went after the Romanov community in the Crimea, they were stopped by the Germans.

Let's take this one step at a time so our debate doesn't get bogged down my length.

If I am wrong,  please enlighten me.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 07, 2004, 10:45:09 AM
AGRBear, it appears to me you are deliberately being obtuse regarding Robert's post.  

Robert's point (which, I may add, is quite obvious) is that no Romanov who had escaped the Revolution and was living outside Russia was hunted down by Stalin's agents (cf. Trotsky, who was hunted down and murdered).  

This "disingenousness" is really quite unbecoming.  

Jane
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 11:15:05 AM
I am sorry Jane.  Obviously, this was not how I read Robert's  posting.  

I do not know if you are aware as to how many Romanovs were being hunted down by the Bolshviks "inside"  Russia in those early years.

Take a look at the following thread which just shows the Imperial Family and does not include all the other members of the family:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1090449527

There was a large comunnity of Romanov's in the Crimea and there were orders given by the Bolsheviks to execute them, however,  the arrival of the German troops prevented this from happening.  [I'll go and find that thread's URL and return with it and post it under a PS.]

If Robert meant that there were no murdering of Romanovs "outside" of Russia,  than I do not know.  However, whenever there is mention of a Romanov committing a "sucide" that all eyes turn toward Lenin back in those days.  Someone else will have to tell us if there is a proven fact that a Romanov was murdered outside of Russia by Bolsheviks.

AGRBear

PS - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1092759462

Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 12:46:58 PM
This quote from James_H farther developes my thoughts on this subject:


Quote
That's a complicated question.

The problem with monarchies is that unlike a president a monarch is for life and when removed unfortunately still retain royal pretensions and are often still recognized by reigning dynasties. They are often still treated as defacto kings eg. Ernst of Hanover. Former King Konstantine of the Hellenes etc...

The only true way to totally remove a monarch is to kill them. In doing so they are stripped of a "divine" right to rule. To remove a Dynasty one must kill a large number of the family because the throne passes automatically to the next in line. The more absolute the monarch the more total the removal must be... even if it is only to be seen as reinforcing your position as the next legitimate regime.


If Alexei had survived,  would it have been wise for an under aged Emp/Tsar of Russia to have been exposed until there was (1) sufficient protection  and (2) there was, also, his health to contend with in those early months....???  which may have prevented Alexei from escaping Russia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 12:47:27 PM
Agrbear...
To misquote Freud
"Sometimes a suicide is just a suicide..."

Or do you take every misfortune as a "communist plot?" Sometimes you do make me laugh! :D

By the way did you note my post about "books" earlier on this page?

R
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 07, 2004, 12:47:32 PM
AGRBear, I am well aware of the matters to which you refer, thank you.  I am aware of the Romanovs who barely made it out of the Crimea, before sailing out on HMS Marlborough.  

Again, Robert's point was very clear to me, and apparently also was to our FA, who further elucidated on it (although in all fairness to you, it is equally clear that Rob's response was directed more towards the Curious One).  I stand by what I said to you in my earlier post.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 01:20:23 PM
C1

Please explain you curious and rather morbid fantasy about a suviving daughter and ahhh 9 months later a baby? Is this something out of Anna Anderson? Some old family story? Your own "dream?"

Remember dear the name of the game is evidence...

Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 01:20:24 PM
Excuse me for this huge  ;D  but I was just wondering why someone hasn't asked Curious One if  she's Rodger.

[I assume Curious One is a female from the cartoon--the pig tails braids-- used as the symbol for the postings.]

R. -  Books?  No I didn't see your posting.  Guess I'll have to turn a few pages and see what all was posted these past few days.  If you are referring to anything I've written today,  I did quote A People's Tragedy by Figes whom you recomended.

Jane,  I am glad you can see how I read Robert's posting and even after going back and rereading his post,  I am not sure which of us is right.  We'll have to let Robert tell us on this one.

AGRBear






Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 01:24:36 PM
Quote

C1/ Candice/ JonC/ Agrbear  anyone...
Give me some book titles and authors and I will be willing to examine and discuss the evidence. However if you won't- or can't- do that much... well
then this is rather pointless isnt it....
Rskkiya  

here it is in part agrbear...the rest is up a few posts- not far!
By the way- I do hope you are not a teddy bear even though you have an icon of one!  LOL
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 07, 2004, 01:31:45 PM
C1 posts from Pleasant Valley California, the bay area. Is probably NOT Rodger.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 01:51:18 PM
Went back and reread Robert's posting and as I scrolled down to read the other postings I found this:

Quote
For one so curious, it is amazing you do not look up and see what is flying right over your head.
The point being made was- no Romanovs were chased down by Soviet assasins- OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA !
Of course any fool with a title who stayed in Russia was easy target practice.
Also, despite overwhelming lack of political support, there was no dearth of open doors for Romanov refugees.
The post stands as signed,
Robert
{who the blank is RALPH ?}


In the above posting you did make it very clear:
"The point being made was- no Romanovs were chased down by Soviet assasins- OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA !"

As to who is RALPH:  I knew a Ralph Hall when I was a kid and I must have thought  Robert and wrote Ralph.  Such occurences will happen to you when you get to the age 62.  People my age call it "having a senior moment".  You'll have to ask Curious One why she called you Ralph, although,  it appears to me she was making a point about the way Robert wrote that particular post.  Robert is usually more precise and calm in his wording. I may be wrong.  I have a feeling Curious One will tell us.   And,  if Robert would like to be a part of the 3 Cat bunch,  so be it .  I'll wave my wand and bidd-ba-bobbi-boo,  Robert is a cat, too.
;)

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 07, 2004, 02:06:54 PM
Just a couple of points:

Maria Feodorovna lost all 4 sons she gave birth to during her lifetime. It was incredibly difficult for her to lose Alexander in his babyhood and George as a young adult. We have documented sources which detail her extreme anguish. After the Revolution, first her youngest and favorite son was murdered followed by her eldest surviving son and his family, also murdered. The killers both lied about their crimes and exulted in their deeds.

C1, Every parent I know totally understands why MF would deny her two sons were dead, especially given the circumstances. That you cannot indicates you just don't get parental grief, which is fine. I hope you never have to experience it. However, please don't let your not getting it distort our understanding of history.

As to the Grand Dukes being safe once they left Russia, I would say that is still unproven. We know that Stalin went so far as to place agents in Nicholasha's home in France. We know Stalin went so far as to place a KGB agent in Dmitri Pavlovich's circle. This is all invasive enough for me to be suspicious of early deaths of any Romanov. I do not consider this paranoia - in Stalin, we were dealing with a mass murderer of global proportions. Rather, it is a matter of how we go about proving certain deaths were murders.

Do any of you find it convenient that Michael's only child died at age 21 in a car accident? Do any of you find it convenient that Dmitry died of a kidney ailment in his early 40's when he was being treated for TB? When he was feeling much better?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 07, 2004, 03:04:31 PM
Lisa, sorry, but no, I do not find the early death by car accident suspicious. It is far too common an occurence. Those sort of incidents do not take account of who is in the cars involved.
As for Dimitry. well, this has been gone over by various authors over the years.  I do not know enough abut TB to make even a guess about his treatment. I have heard, however, that he was far more afflicted by liver disease due to acute alcoholism. Where, you may well ask? Somewhere in these shelves of books I respond. His eventful/sad life certainly made him ripe for such a fate.
Now, the "spies/agents" in the Romanov camps. So what ? I am NOT defending that monster Stalin, but his using agents was no different a tactic than any other power used.  Actually, it is time honoured practice by everybody.  The US had spies in Sadam's court, big surprise that he did the same to Bush/Clinton/Bush ?
Actually, Pres. Clinton once said of a fallen dictator "he had men out to assasinate me, I was trying to do the same to him so what?' or words to that effect.
Anyway, I doubt that he was concerned about who was going to pick up a battered crown from the gutter, he was happy to see the Romanovs bicker amongst themselves over that.  Probably just wanted to keep aware of what they were up to and perhaps find some  $$$ in the bargain.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 07, 2004, 03:08:23 PM
Lisa makes an excellent point about MF.

As far as "convenient" deaths referenced at the end of the last post, I admit I don't know much about the specifics of Dmitri's death (beyond the fact that it was Davos, TB, 1942, I'm sure someone will correct me if I have the bare bones wrong), but in all honesty, I've never thought George Mikhailovich's death anything other than a tragic accident.  Speeding car, young man, etc.  Is there any infomation anywhere that indicates it was anything else but an accident?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 03:59:46 PM
Quote
Candice...

OK :) fair enough! Please do list some books (with authors) for me to check out of the library...
Although I have read Summers & Mangolds book ( I find that one very unreliable !) - I would be truly interested in any other sources that you should like to suggest.

I am quite serious. Please just list the books/articles/ magazines in one or two posts --- I sadly am running out of time to spend here! You might not believe me,  but honestly I am willing to see your evidence and examine it fairly.

R. :D

Agrbear: This was what I meant... Rskkiya 8)
Ps. About the whole Cat thing...the FA wants it all to stop!

And regarding any untimely accidents well Stalin "may have smiled a little when it happened"... but I really don't think that the KGB was involved in all expat Romanov deaths. (misquote Kate Hepburn The Lion In Winter)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Candice on October 07, 2004, 05:05:35 PM
rskkiya, reply #424 Here are just four of the books on my desk: 'The Romanovs, The final chapter' by Robert K. Massie, 'The Hunt for the Czar' by Guy Richards, 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw and 'The plots to rescue the Tsar' by Shay McNeal.  

I have mentioned these books many times before and also mentioned articles that have appeared in 'The Telegrah' and 'The Mail' not the Telegram I don't think there is such a newspaper as the Telegram in existence, rskkiya.  These UK newspapers that I have mentioned are not historical newspapers, they are merely reporting world news.  The authors of these articles(on the Romanovs and DNA) are journalists reporting the latest scientifc findingsb]  I will not say any more regarding newspapers! Otherwise, we might have to start a new thread on 'Credible Newspapers'! ;D

Regards, Candice
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 07, 2004, 05:13:22 PM
As I explained to Forum Admin.,  we must have been writing at the same time and I never saw his post about the cat stuff  so my posts after his oviously looks as if I was not paying attention to his wishes.

I shall obey.

R.-  You have a block on my personal messages so I can not reply to your messages ....

AGRBear


PS  I was not the one who asked what Stalin was doing on the night of 16 July 1918.  That was a good question and an excellent answer and them some  ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 05:13:57 PM
Candice

Ok Thanks.
By the way "The Daily Telegraph" was an English Newspaper - not the best sort - but that was centuries ago lost in the mists of my youth ! LOL

Anyway I have Massies books- and I will look for the others.
Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 05:18:52 PM
Agrbear!
You are not blocked from my PM list (at least not anymore) ;) I blocked a lot of people for about 3 days over a month ago. Post me only if you want to.

Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 05:42:10 PM
AGRBear wrote:
PS  I was not the one who asked what Stalin was doing on the night of 16 July 1918.  That was a good question and an excellent answer and them some  ::)

****Ah, sorry about that. It's just that...like "Ralph" writes like Robert, you and C1 could be identical *twins* with regard to writing style and general beliefs.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 05:49:15 PM
Candice wrote:  Here are just four of the books on my desk: 'The Romanovs, The final chapter' by Robert K. Massie, 'The Hunt for the Czar' by Guy Richards, 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw and 'The plots to rescue the Tsar' by Shay McNeal.  

********
The first one listed, Massie's book, is a problem simply by virtue of it's title (there's *never* going to be a "final chapter")

The last three are a fun romp, interesting to speculate, but NOT to be taken seriously.  The last one, the McNeal, is based on a work of fiction.

Anyone have anything better to recommend?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 07, 2004, 05:51:18 PM
Quote
JonC wrote:

'or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. '


don't you, JOh, , I think you have some ideas about thison.


Dashkova what are you talking about? ::)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: CuriousOne on October 07, 2004, 05:52:24 PM
Quote
C1 posts from Pleasant Valley California, the bay area. Is probably NOT Rodger.


I guess I should be grateful there is doubt in the Forum Admin.'s mind that I  am "probably NOT Rodger".  I am a female as AGRBear fiqured out from the cartoon, so,  it would be pretty hard for me to be Rodger.  

I am, however, displeased that Forum Admin.  has stated that my messages are coming out of Pleasant Valley, CA.  Had I wanted that advertized I would have placed it in my profile.  So, [a shrug], now, all of you know.  It's a beautiful sunny day in the Golden State and I hope everyone is having a great day.

Hey,  AGRBEAR,  you were right.  You even were blamed for what I wrote   ;D.

C1
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 05:52:25 PM
Your attempt to quote what I wrote previously failed miserably.

Here's what I wrote:

Oh, I think you have some ideas about this, don't you, Jon.


This is what I mean:

I believe you could expound on your theory at great length.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 07, 2004, 06:10:27 PM
Jane.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that Nicholas 2nd and his family can be swept under the proverbial rug just yet.

It has been clear to me and I think others on this board that the jusry is still out on the fate of the Romanovs.

I know you quote all those 'so called' eye witnesses and the 'reports' about the 'murders' and the reports, reports..,reports. Yet we still don't have the final word on the 'validity' of these 'reports'.

The DNA, I think to be the most crucial evidence, is seriously in question. Because of that the 'bones' are in question.

I was once told that if you want to find out the truth follow the money trail. I didn't believe there was any money until recently when we all read how the Russian governmet is trying to get the billions of the Tsar's gold held in Japanese banks, it got me thinking.

Not just politics but also Gold makes for strange bedfellows. Thus were the Brits and the Ruskies in cahoot for the loot? Well the Japanese aren't denying the have the 'loot'. They are holding off, and negotiating hard for oil shipment contracts from Russian oil. They also want their island north of Japan back.

Jane my advise to you is to clear your head of all the so called 'evidence' stop drinking the kool aid, and watch and wait for the next ' real' evidence...if it is out there. Best Regards. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 07, 2004, 06:27:23 PM
JonC
Please see various places on the forum where the question some "missing romanov fortune" has been discussed.
The bottom line is this, there IS NOT nor ever WAS any missing cache of 'the tsar's gold'. period.  The money trail was followed and accounted for.

Do NOT make the mistake of assuming that Tsarist Government deposits abroad are somehow also "personal" Romanov funds. They are NOT. Assets of the Tsarist Government passed to the Provisional Government (and most of them were liquidated to pay the debts of these two). Any funds left would be more likely to belong to subsequent Russian governments than to descendants.

Sadly, there simply is no "gold trail" to finance the supposed "motives" of the alleged consipiracies.
Do your homework
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 07, 2004, 06:28:39 PM
Quote
Jane my advise to you is to clear your head of all the so called 'evidence' stop drinking the kool aid, and watch and wait for the next ' real' evidence...if it is out there. Best Regards. JonC.


LOL, that's the funniest thing you've said yet.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 06:50:48 PM
JonC

KoolAid?

Ok... :-/ :-/ What are you drinking?

By the way your suggestion that N.  & Co. wanted to escape and somehow 'reinvent a life out of the public eye" is one of the cruelest things that I have ever heard!
Do you really think that he was really so selfish as to ignore the sufferings of so many of his kin abroad? Could he possibly have sat by while his extended family mourned him?

Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 07, 2004, 07:08:29 PM
Quote
Do you really think that he was really so selfish as to ignore the sufferings of so many of his kin abroad? Could he possibly have sat by while his extended family mourned him?


Well, rskkiya, that's exactly what "JonC" must think, looking back to his earlier post on the subject.

What can one do?  :-/




Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 07, 2004, 07:38:00 PM
To FA..

So the gold that the Russian Govt is asking to retrieve from Japan is not the Tsar's personal stash? Ok, I stand corrected. I guess when one reads 'Tsarist gold' it must mean Government gold. Thanks for the heads up. Best regards. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 07:38:49 PM
Quote
JonC

KoolAid?

Ok... :-/ :-/ What are you drinking?

By the way your suggestion that N.  & Co. wanted to escape and somehow 'reinvent a life out of the public eye" is one of the cruelest things that I have ever heard!
Do you really think that he was really so selfish as to ignore the sufferings of so many of his kin abroad? Could he possibly have sat by while his extended family mourned him?

Rskkiya


It's not a question of drinking, Rskkiya dear, it's *trumpets*. The distant variety.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 07, 2004, 07:43:30 PM
Rskkiya.

Obviously by abdicating I think he made up his mind to abandon his 'annoited' position..don't you think so? Abdicating meant abandoning what he was born to do till death parted him. No-one put a gun to his head...with all due respect to him. He was wrong to do it. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 07:48:36 PM
Quote
Rskkiya.

Obviously by abdicating I think he made up his mind to abandon his 'annoited' position..don't you think so? Abdicating meant abandoning what he was born to do till death parted him. No-one put a gun to his head...with all due respect to him. He was wrong to do it. JonC.


This is backpedaling.

Here's what "JonC" wrote a few days ago  He specifically refers to the "abandonment" in the context of Nicholas II escaping with and for his family to begin a new life:

"Given the opportunity to 'escape' from his cage or prison of responsibility I think he took it and didn't look back! He took it for himself and his family and didn't look back!!!

Ofcourse this view of thought hinges on my belief that some or all of them did escape.  

I just think it extremely likely that the reason no-one has heard from them, be it from the 'two' who escaped or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. End of story!!!! I don't mean to be cynical. Just my oppinion. Best regards. JonC. "
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 08:02:28 PM
JonC

  You don't seem to realize what point I am adressing with my comment to you re: "Nicholas the survivor ."
Sigh.
  The legal nicities of abdication are not the point in this discussion --what you seem to have said (I may well be wrong) is that the tzar magically not having been executed went on to ignore the tears of his relatives and friends all over the world and create a secret life?  With no thought to aid or comfort his extended  family who believed the whole family dead...he went on his merry way?!?!
Hmmm--

Youre not Russian Orthodox ...are you.
Rskkiya  
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 07, 2004, 08:14:23 PM
Quote
I'll be more than happy to supply names.  In fact,  I'll start with a list of villagers of just one village in the Ukraine.  While I'm gone to get the names let me provide you with some of the story.

The visitor from another village found a village nearby void of  all of it's people.

Evidently,  the Bolsheviks had entered the village at dinner time.  Food was left stilll cooking on the stoves, bread was still in the ovens....  Half eaten plates of food was on the tables....

The dogs, cats and other creatures were still there but no people.  No old people.  No babies in the crib.

In those days,  the villager  did  not need much imagination to know what happen.

I'm not sure how many people were in this village.  But I will find the names  and  I will place the names on a different thread.  Also, if I can get permission I'll provide the story I had read on another web site.
----


Where is this recorded, dear C1? EVIDENCE please not just a foaf story. FACTS!
Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 07, 2004, 09:18:40 PM
JonC wrote: "I was once told that if you want to find out the truth follow the money trail."
**********
Who told you this? Was it your father?
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Olga on October 07, 2004, 10:57:16 PM
His Fairy Godmother told him.  ;D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 08, 2004, 02:18:16 AM
Fairy Godmother sounds entirely plausible.

But I'll stick with "Dad"
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 10:10:38 AM
Hello Olga and Dashkova
(my henchmen...sinister laugh! HeHeHe!)LOL

My dear ones now do behave!  ;)

Is it all about money or the romanic notion of a Holy Russia under a Holy Tzar that really motivates JonC?
I just don't follow his posts -- they make little sense to me... but I'm mean and cruel and academic... :D
LOL

Jon C  Do you think that you are an heir? Is that what this is about?

Rskkiya

ps Dashkova- lovely icon!
pps Olga- its always nice to here from you! Paka!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 08, 2004, 10:20:24 AM
Dobre ootrah to the newest -- and kindest, most fair, etc, etc -- Goddess on the board!

I will explain my recent post to JonC, but will privately message it.

Oh, glad you like the icon. :)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 10:26:27 AM
Quote
....[in part]....I don't know whether Stalin had Yurovsky murdered or not, but if he did, it would be keeping in character.  See, this is just another example of "reaching" and trying to make certain things fit, i.e.:  *If* Yurovsky was done away with/disappeared, it was because it was feared he would "reveal" the "truth" about the escape of Nickolai et al.

But there was no reason to Stalin's madness, ok?  He went after *everybody*, starting with (by the time he took power the aristocracy and small middle class were gone) the Kulaks, then the "wreckers" and then with Kirov's murder Stalin went totally nuts going after Bolsheviks, comrades, friends, loyal party members from all walks of life.  We of course, also know he even sent agents abroad and tracked down Trotsky!  But not any Romanovs!

(oh, but according to Litwin, he DID, in Michigan, where the family was supposedly living all cozy with Henry Ford.  The alleged attempt was mostly unsuccessful but after that the family scattered. So saith the distant trumpet Tsar.  I am sure there are others who will speculate similarly, but there isn't any evidence of such murders/attempted murders of secreted Romanovs abroad!)

The point is, saying that: "Oh, Stalin went after Yurovsky...see, see?? You know what *that* means!"

Well, it doesn't mean anything, if you've ever studied Stalin as much as I  and others have. The man was a diagnosed paranoid (he had the diagnosing doctor killed, btw) -- if he suspected anything on Yurovsky, well, hey, join the club, Yakov! He was there along with just about everyone else in Russia during the Stalin era.
....


I have no idea if Stalin had Yurovsky murdered.  Maybe Penny Wilson will explain where she read about  her "hint" that Yurovsky might have been murdered under Stalin's watch.

I do, however, find it interesting that no one seemed to disagree the fact that Stalin was "mad" or "he went after everybody".  In fact,  it is a chilling fact.

Could one or two of the everybodies been  the "real" claimants who could have escaped the CHEKA that eventful night only to be recaptured and later murdered?

AGRBear




Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 11:38:30 AM
Agrbear
Good point!
I don't think that anyone here is a big fan of Dear Joseph Dzujchachvilli --I do think him a great hero during WWII but he was quite paraniod...

I think we have gotten of topic " Serious claiments"  I am still confused about the suggestion of an heir escaping from Stalin?

By the way I will be at the library this saturday to investigate the reccomended books mentioned by C1 Candice and yourself.
Rskkiya
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 11:50:41 AM
Quote
... [in part]...JonC
By the way your suggestion that N.  & Co. wanted to escape and somehow 'reinvent a life out of the public eye" is one of the cruelest things that I have ever heard!
Do you really think that he was really so selfish as to ignore the sufferings of so many of his kin abroad? Could he possibly have sat by while his extended family mourned him?

Rskkiya


Evidently you are just having fun at Jon C's expense.  Why doesn't this surprise me?   It is unfortunate  Jon C's  suggestion is being rediculed.  Since his thoughts are not that much different than my own thoughts that one, two or all may have escaped.  Unlike R and others,   I can understand what Jon C. is trying to discover.  

Jon C. ,  it is possible that one, two or all of the Imperial Family escaped.  I for one do not believe the history written by the CHEKA of Ekaterinburg, the Ural Soviets nor Lenin and Stalin's people.
----
Here is a good example:  

Time and time again,  we are being told that Lenin did not sent a telegram to Ekaterinburg to give the order of the execution of the Imperial Family.

In the book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalaev pps.  290-291.

In brief the authors talk about Filipp Goloshchekin's visit to Moscow in early July.

"There is some indication that a contingency plan was discussed.  In the 1930s, Yurovsky stated that while Goloshchekin was in Moscow in early July 'the center' decided 'what to do if abandoning Yekaterinburg became unavoidable'-- implying that this was a decision in favor of executing th forer tsar..."

The authors go into the possible trial if  Nicholas II was taken to Moscow.

A few paragraphs later the authors write:
"Did Moscow respond with a direct order?  If a decision to execute the former tsar and his family had alrelady been made in Mocow, no such order would have been necessary.  According to Yurovsky, however an order to  'exterminate the R-----ovs' did arrive in Yekaterinburg sometime before 6:00 in the evening on 16 July [Document 159]."   "But Yurovsky's statement is not proof.  It also raises more questions."
----
You bet it raises more questions by me and others.

Knowing how well Lenin, Ural Soviets and CHEKA could cover up a single telegram,  means to me that they were certainly capable of covering up the escape of one or all of the Imperial Family on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Ryskkiya and others can't seem to accept this possibility.  However, after long last,  they will admit a very very distant possibility one or two of the Imperial Family may have escaped for a day or two or nine months.  [I have no idea  where C1 is taking them on this, althought I can guess.]  But,  I, Jon C., and others can.   I assume that is why this thread was created in the first place because of the possibility there are  "Serious Claimants".

When I, Jon C. or anyone else dares to think  one or all escaped the doubters ask for evidence.

I have mentioned the fact that a high offical in the German community had told people that  when the word came out of Russia around the date of 16 July 1918 that Nicholas II had been executed that it was not to be believed.....

I have mentioned various names of people who claimed they had seen one or all members of the Royal Family after 16 July 1918....

There is evidence that trains were being searched by Red Army who were looking for the "missing" Romanovs...

This evidence is set aside by those who believe the CHEKA, Ural Soviets and Lenin that they executed the Imperial Family.

The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and Stalin and other communists have had a long long time to eliminate all evidence that could have proven an escape of one, two or all.

Conspiracy.  You bet!

Why?  As I've said before,  "The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and communists did not/  do not want the world to know that the Imperial Family was not executed on the night of 16/17  July 1918 because of the approaching White Army but they  [nine we know of out  of the eleven] were MURDERED when there  was no longer a threat from the White Army rescuers.

AGRBear

PS  I jumped off my soap box before answering R. 's question about  how cruel it was that none of those who escaped had contacted any members of their family.  Since,  we know the Imperial Family would have,  if they could have,  means a lot of things were happening to them.  Probably cruel things.  And, they were not able to tell anyone they were alive.  As the days, months and maybe a year passed,  and, there still was no word,  it may be safe to assume the "nine" were recaptured and murdered.   Two were not found or the CHEKA,  Ural Soviets and Lenin would have left us their bodies to be found just like they did the nine.

PSS  Sorry R.,  I seem to be pointing my finger at you today.  I am talking to all who have placed themselves into a "box" and can't seem to even peep a look at other posibilities.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 12:20:06 PM
Agrbear
Lets try to be civil!  

  I have agreed to examine the books that were suggested about survivors.And although I am willing to read the books I have not said that I accept the survivor theory ...OK!    Please don't imagine that everyone has a soapbox here(it just makes you look paranoid)
  JonC seems to say a lot of strange things which I was curious about... He implies a very thoughtless and selfish Nicholas in his posts sayingg that that he (N) would wish to escape & tell noone of his survival ...
  I do think that this is just a ploy that  JonC is using to suggest a heritage of Romanovs " in the closet" so to speak...But I may be incorrrect.  I feel that JonC will be able to defend himself from my remarks.

Agrebear
So you believe in conspiracies...OK
Rskkiya
Title: your "views" havRe: For Serious Claiman
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 12:33:30 PM
AGR, et al- What makes you think those of us who oppose
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 12:41:16 PM
Agrbear

  I really do think that my willingness to actually reread some of the books suggested by the pro survivors "club' ought to respected-- not mocked .
  You have complained in the past of uncivil behaviour on this thread...I ask you now to please be a bit more circumspect.   Please!

Rskkiya

PS The FA has made several posts about the the "telegram from the government issue" Please reread them! R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 12:45:43 PM
Sorry, pc blip.
In any case, I think we have read/researched all the dissenting, alternative works probably long before you & your coterie have.
AND, without relying on propaganda from any politically motivated source have come to the conclusion that there were simply no survivors of that infamous "execution".
The topic here is "serious claimants". In my view, that would be contending Romanov family members or imposters who would have us take their "cause" seriously. The latter of that group have been mostly easily dismissed. Those who were not have been so thouroughly investigated that it is now scientifically certain that they too were false.
As none of your so-called "survivors" have made any claims whatsoever, what are you talking about?
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2004, 01:04:44 PM
The reason that this thread demands people provide EVIDENCE about survivors is because as pointed out, it is for those with claims of being survivor/descendants.

this thread is NOT, I repeat NOT about speculation "if" 2 of them survived.
Please go start a hypothetical discussion thread to discuss the "what if's" of their survival.

Anyone who posts here as a claimant or posts purporting to KNOW about claimants will have their hard evidence demanded. As can reasonably be expected. period.

FA
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 01:41:52 PM
Telegram:

R- wrote:
"The FA has made several posts about the the "telegram from the government issue" Please reread them! R. "

I'll be more than happy to read or reread Forum Admin. posting o the telegram.  Where may I find them?  

Meanwhile,  since I've continued to read The Fall of the Romanovs by Steinberg and Khrustalaev,  I see on p. 292:

"The main evidence that a telegram ordering execution came from Moscow is a statement made in the 1960s by a member of the Kreimlin guard who claimed that he personally carried Lenin's message to the telegraph office"confirming" the "decision" of the Ural party committee to execute the former tsar and his family."  following this statement is the number 53.  So,  I turned back to note #53 which reads "Radzinsky, Last Tsar, pp. 345 -346.

So I went out to my garage,  moved about ten boxes and found Radzinsky's book.  

Radzinsky continues with a letter of Nikolai Lapik,  director of the Progress Factory's museum in the town of Kuibyshev p. 345-6:  
"We have in our museium a tpyed record of a conversation between F. F. Akimov and A. G. Smyshlyaev...."

To make it brief,  Radzinsky talks about the telegram and more.  The telegrapher had refused to give up the "copy" of the telegram and the  "ribbon", a gun was pulled, threats and the operator gave up the  "copy" and the 'ribbon".

Radzinsky's conclusion was:
"So, the Sovnarkom and Central Executive Commmitte (that is, Lenin and Sverdlov) sent that telegram to Ekaterinburg  'with confirmation of this decision' about the execution of the tsar's family."


-----

Quote
Sorry, pc blip.
In any case, I think we have read/researched all the dissenting, alternative works probably long before you & your coterie have.
AND, without relying on propaganda from any politically motivated source have come to the conclusion that there were simply no survivors of that infamous "execution".
The topic here is "serious claimants". In my view, that would be contending Romanov family members or imposters who would have us take their "cause" seriously. The latter of that group have been mostly easily dismissed. Those who were not have been so thouroughly investigated that it is now scientifically certain that they too were false.
As none of your so-called "survivors" have made any claims whatsoever, what are you talking about?
Cheers,
Robert


We  [I and Robert] have  already agreed he probably has more books in his library than I but I'm not sure if he could out number me if I counted ALL the books I've bought and read. Besides, I'm not sure what the number of books have to do with my theory that there may have been "survivors"  There are many readers who have used the library and don't own but a few books.  

Nor have I ever announced that I thought a "real" claimant or descendant has ever  surfaced.

All I am asking is that you open up your mind to the possible fact that the CHEKA, Ural Soviet and Lenin may have covered up events of the night of 16/17  July 1918 in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg , Siberia , Russia.  I used the telegram because there is a controvery over it's exsistence, too.

And, once you have opened your mind,  then allow those of us who think it is possible that one, two or all may not have been executed that night as the CHEKA, Ural Soveits and Lenin try to make us believe they were.

AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2004, 01:54:27 PM
They are on the AA/Anastasia thread, about Oct. 1. in response to British Blue.
the gist of it:Yurovsky was not in direct communication with Lenin. His direct contact was with Sverdlov (chairman of Central Exec Committe in Moscow). The military commander of Ekaterinburg, Goloshchyokin went to Sverdlov in Moscow, and was specifically denied permission to execute the IF. Lenin told Sverdlov that he specifically wanted the IF brought to Moscow for a public "show trial"
Sverdlov's exact words;"Filip, (Goloshchyokin) tell the comrades that the ARCEC does not give official sanction to an execution."

The relevant telegrams are in Last Act of a Tragedy, published in 1996, by Aleksyev, who spent much time going thru all the relevant files and archives  in Russia, able to read whatever he wanted. there simply are NO telegrams from Lenin ordering the murders.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 02:07:35 PM
Quote
The reason that this thread demands people provide EVIDENCE about survivors is because as pointed out, it is for those with claims of being survivor/descendants.

this thread is NOT, I repeat NOT about speculation "if" 2 of them survived.
Please go start a hypothetical discussion thread to discuss the "what if's" of their survival.

Anyone who posts here as a claimant or posts purporting to KNOW about claimants will have their hard evidence demanded. As can reasonably be expected. period.

FA


How can anyone come forth and make a claim if most of you refuse to even consider there is a possibility that one, two or all were not executed on the eventful night in July?

And,  yes,  I agree,  the evidence presented to us by the CHEKA, Ural Soviets and Lenin are as high as a hill I live on but that doesn't mean we can't  weed out the "red herrings" from the truth.  However,  in order to accept a "real" claimant,  it is important to understand someone could have and may have escaped.

Evidence.  I've  retold some of my evidence in my earlier posting.  Like Candice said,  no one seems to care to debate this evidence.
 
If you do,  then what evidence do you have that Mirbach was lying when he told the general not to worry if the general heard the news after the  date of 16 July that Nicholas II had been shot by the Ural Soviets?  Because, to mem,  this sounds like the Germans were ploting a rescue for the 16th of July 1918.

I'd love to read this answer and continue this debate on what-ever thread you care to send me

AGRBear


:)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 02:24:22 PM
Quote
They are on the AA/Anastasia thread, about Oct. 1. in response to British Blue.
the gist of it:Yurovsky was not in direct communication with Lenin. His direct contact was with Sverdlov (chairman of Central Exec Committe in Moscow). The military commander of Ekaterinburg, Goloshchyokin went to Sverdlov in Moscow, and was specifically denied permission to execute the IF. Lenin told Sverdlov that he specifically wanted the IF brought to Moscow for a public "show trial"
Sverdlov's exact words;"Filip, (Goloshchyokin) tell the comrades that the ARCEC does not give official sanction to an execution."

The relevant telegrams are in Last Act of a Tragedy, published in 1996, by Aleksyev, who spent much time going thru all the relevant files and archives  in Russia, able to read whatever he wanted. there simply are NO telegrams from Lenin ordering the murders.


Forum Admin.,  are you asking me to answer this over on the Anastasia thread?  Or,  are you reminding me where there was conversation about the telegram and our conversation continues here?   OR, am I to take all of this  to a thread which needs to be started by me?

AGRBear


Title: osition is based Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 02:38:45 PM
AGR, don't be silly. I was not challenging for a bibliographical inventory and you know it. I was that my p
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2004, 02:39:11 PM
No,
you asked where to find my postings re telegrams. so I told you.
BUT I did ask earlier that this thread be left to specific Claimants and that the "what if" discussions be in an appropriate thread. There has not been a discussion of a specific Claimant here for ages.

Thanks
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 08, 2004, 03:10:53 PM
To rskkiya, Beloshka & whoever.

So you have come to the conclusion that I'm an heir..OK! you got me!...but? how'd you know I inherited my dad's bills? WOW!...OK!..you must be spychic...tell me since you have 'the' knowledge when will I be rich, and independent?...you don't have to tell me now take your time I can certainly wait!

Listen, seriously now, I have nothing against anyone on this site. As a matter of fact I enjoy the information shared by all because I am learning more and more about the Romanovs and Russia in general.

I think the FA has it right, this thread is for 'Serious Claimants'. Our discussions nevertheless, even though they have slipped into the realm of interpretation and possibilities are important to discovery. Maybe the FA can direct us to another thread.

Whatever the discussion though I don't think anyone of you has the right to start demeaning the one who has a different view of things. I'm not going to point fingers, you know who you are, but AGRBear and I and whoever else should be allowed to, until all the information has been verified, to express a contrary opinion.

I believe in what AGRBear is saying. I thank her for being so meticulous with her explanation of events..much more than I could ever do and I for one would be very unhappy if she could not express herself!!! She adds credibility to her objections to the universally 'accepted' facts by asking pertinent questions and making proper conclusions. I am sure she may be wrong here and there but that's how we all learn.

Best regards. JonC.

P.S. Whoever is a 'Serious Claimant' please speak up!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 08, 2004, 03:43:21 PM
No one's being "demeaned".  I think part of the problem is when members come in and post their theories and ideas that severely deviate from accepted scholarship, that's all they do!  "This is what I think and why I think it" and then can't back it up!  That's not scholarship, that's tabloidesque.

Until the conspiracy enthusiasts get fluent in Russian and German and go research in the original documents (such as what Wilson and King did, and whose scholarship I for one consider the most current and most accurate) or discover something previously overlooked, you *cannot* speak with authority, and neither can you pull anything from Razdinsky, McNeal, and the others and expect to convince anyone.

The kind of research I'm talking about is the province of historians who have been trained to the profession.  There is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist and even making grand speculations -- that can actually be a lot of fun -- but it's not serious! If you post *demanding* to be taking seriously you better have something more to back it up, or at least understand that you're going to receive major opposition and not whine about it!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 08, 2004, 03:45:49 PM
"JonC" wrote:
So you have come to the conclusion that I'm an heir..OK! you got me!...but? how'd you know I inherited my dad's bills? WOW!...OK!..you must be spychic...tell me since you have 'the' knowledge when will I be rich, and independent?...you don't have to tell me now take your time I can certainly wait!

***Stop getting your hopes up. Never gonna happen.
And:
P.S. Whoever is a 'Serious Claimant' please speak up!

***Sorry. Don't think there's any ventriloquists here to help you out.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Jane on October 08, 2004, 03:50:34 PM
Quote
No one's being "demeaned".  I think part of the problem is when members come in and post their theories and ideas that severely deviate from accepted scholarship, that's all they do!  "This is what I think and why I think it" and then can't back it up!  That's not scholarship, that's tabloidesque.

Until the conspiracy enthusiasts get fluent in Russian and German and go research in the original documents (such as what Wilson and King did, and whose scholarship I for one consider the most current and most accurate) or discover something previously overlooked, you *cannot* speak with authority, and neither can you pull anything from Razdinsky, McNeal, and the others and expect to convince anyone.

The kind of research I'm talking about is the province of historians who have been trained to the profession.  There is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist and even making grand speculations -- that can actually be a lot of fun -- but it's not serious! If you post *demanding* to be taking seriously you better have something more to back it up, or at least understand that you're going to receive major opposition and not whine about it!


Very well stated, Dashkova.  I agree 100%!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 03:51:12 PM
Hello

  FA has made a valid point --we ought to be discussing any "serious claimants" (if they exist) here...
  I do not believe that there are any survivors and that AA and all other notorious claiments were either frauds or mentally deranged people. Time and the contrived tales that so many claimants make to explaining their magical survival are the reasons for my doubts. It's just not logical! (PS Sorry folks  There is no Father Christmas, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny! )LOL 8)
  I am willing for the sake of this discussion to examine the books which C1 and Candice have mentioned before, and I intend to explain in some detail why I do -or don't- find their arguements legitimate.

JonC. Spychic ? What is that?

Rskkiya.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 08, 2004, 06:05:52 PM
Dashkova.


OK..then, Dashkova says that everyone who hasn't been published please SHUT UP! You can't be heard or listened to because you are not a professional researcher. Your words mean nothing!!! as per Dashkova.

Greg and Penny we all bow down to you because you have been published you alone are legitimate commentators, whatever you say goes..as per Dashkova.


I have a lot of repect for Greg and Penny. Their books are wonderful but please, just because the majority of us haven't written any books on this subject doesn't mean our opinions don't matter....

Dashkova shame on you. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 06:11:09 PM
Thread: Grand Duchess Anastasia / Did The Romanovs Survive:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1074956237;start=0

AGRBear



On the telegram stuff,  I'd like to continue it on the following URL:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1075191962;start=475#488

on post 453.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: JonC on October 08, 2004, 06:13:06 PM
To rskkiya. I was referring to Dashkova.

Hey Dashkova!

WHAT??? You don't know what 'SPYCHIC' means? And I thought you were one...well let me help you..you were supposed to jumble the first two letters around i.e. 'PSYCHIC'. I'm sorry but this doesn't spell nicely for your future of reading into other people's family relationships. tut! tut! too bad! lol. Best regards. JonC.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 06:20:38 PM
Ok

Lets agree to be civil.
If you are going to make glittering generalizations then please explain them and offer facts!
  Some prople here really do believe in the possibility of survivors, some people here are certain of this, and some people here may think that they are the heirs! ;)
  Some people do not believe in survivors or escapees from the execution.
  I am willing to examine the evidence suggested by some 'believers" here.

Noone needs to SHUT UP (crude :-X) JonC, we all need to be a bit more credible in our statements.

Rskkiya

JonC the word is Psychic not Spychic ... People do tend to respect your posts when you can spell!
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Dashkova on October 08, 2004, 06:30:43 PM
Quote
Dashkova.


OK..then, Dashkova says that everyone who hasn't been published please SHUT UP! You can't be heard or listened to because you are not a professional researcher. Your words mean nothing!!! as per Dashkova.

Greg and Penny we all bow down to you because you have been published you alone are legitimate commentators, whatever you say goes..as per Dashkova.


I have a lot of repect for Greg and Penny. Their books are wonderful but please, just because the majority of us haven't written any books on this subject doesn't mean our opinions don't matter....

Dashkova shame on you. JonC.


You have completely and totally misrepresented everything I wrote in the post you are ranting about.

Shame on you! (For that and a good many other things)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 06:32:17 PM
JonC-typos happily ignored, we all make them. However, clumsy cover-ups are amusing only with cleverness.
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 06:35:20 PM
Once again I must ask for a certain level of civil decorum.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 06:39:21 PM
And Rsskiya, my dear comrade, that was a tad under the belt, so to say. After all, dyslexia does get the better of us all at times, does it not?
Adoringly,
Robert
Title: JonC the word i
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 06:45:42 PM
Rsykkiya  you tell the rest of us  to behave themselves and in the next breath you  throw out things like:

"JonC the word is Psychic not Spychic ... People do tend to respect your posts when you can spell."

Remember, we have many young people reading and writing on this forum and let me tell them,  it's the thought that counts not the spelling, which can be corrected when a person, who notices the misspelling and doesn't wish to embarase you,  can write you a personal messages and, then, the  person who has made the error can  click on the
                                   modify" button
and can correct the spelling.



;D  AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 06:45:54 PM
Dear Comrade (and Diety) Hall ;)

To maintain a level of polite decorum in this thread -- I will happily apologize!  :DLOL

Comrade R 8)
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 06:50:34 PM
Quote
And Rsskiya, my dear comrade, that was a tad under the belt, so to say. After all, dyslexia does get the better of us all at times, does it not?
Adoringly,
Robert



Then along comes Robert who tells it like it is  "....that was a tad uner the belt..."  and in his next breath talks about "dyslexia".  

ENOUGH!  PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :-[  AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 06:53:15 PM
Lets all play nicely and stay on topic please.

Rskkiya ;D
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2004, 07:03:37 PM
Claimant,  come out, come out,  where ever you are!

;D
AGRBear
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 07:07:34 PM
Agrbear !

Wonderful! LOL :D

R.
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 08, 2004, 07:28:08 PM
As for you, AGR, lighten up ! If you had paid any attention to any of my postings, you would have realised that I was aiming the dyslexia jab at myself, as much as anyone else.
Now, deity is bad enough, let's not capitalise it, please.

CLAIMANTS...
the last one I got a laugh out of was this fellow in England- at least he got a book out of it. Author, Michael Gray [not his real name, of course] the title- BLOOD RELATIVE. [1998]
"The astonishing story of the survival of the Tsarevich, written by HIS SON".
Hey, just as many, if not more laughs as the fairy dust floating around here !
Cheers,
Robert
[oh no, could BB ??? ]
Title: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2004, 08:15:14 PM
I've had quite enough. You have ALL been asked politely three times now, and just can't behave.

I am personally DISAPPOINTED.

Thread locked until I decide otherwise.