Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Stuarts of Scotland => Topic started by: Prince_Lieven on September 08, 2005, 04:11:49 PM

Title: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 08, 2005, 04:11:49 PM
A thread to discuss Queen Margaret, Scotland's first ever Queen-regnant!

Margaret was born on 9 April 1283 to Eric II of Norway and Margaret, daughter of Alexander III of Scotland. Her mother died in childbirth. When Alexander III died in 1286, the 3 year old Margaret was declared Queen of Scots, which said a lot for how far the laws of progmeniture had come in Scotland. Edward I, King of England, arranged the Treaty of Birgham in 1290 with the Scottish lords, which arranged that Margaret was eventually marry his son and heir the Prince of Wales.

MArgaret left Norway for Scotland in 1290, but fell ill soon afterwards and died in the Orkney Islands c.September 26. She was buried in Bergen with her mother.
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 08, 2005, 04:39:18 PM
The treaty of Birgham:

(http://www.scotlandspast.org/images/Margaret&EdwardProposal1290ad.jpg)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 08, 2005, 04:40:07 PM
Pic of Margaret:

(http://www.royalhouseofstewart.org.uk/Battles/maidofnorway.jpg)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 08, 2005, 08:52:32 PM
Poor child!

Only seven years old and died en route to claim her crown!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: umigon on September 09, 2005, 04:17:24 AM
How different History would have been had Margaret survived and married the Prince of Wales or any other man!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 09, 2005, 05:29:04 AM
Hhmmmm yes, in particular for the future Edward II- he might have had a more "comfortable " death.
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 09, 2005, 04:57:46 PM
Or maybe an even more uncomfortable one, if Margaret had used her Norwegian imagination!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 09, 2005, 06:14:41 PM
Just a side note: because the new rule for monarchial numerals in the UK is to take the highest one from either England or Scotlands, the next Queen Margaret will be Margaret II . . . just some useless trivia.  ::)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 10, 2005, 03:34:22 AM
Quote
Or maybe an even more uncomfortable one, if Margaret had used her Norwegian imagination!

Oooff,the mind boggles :o
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 10, 2005, 03:35:58 AM
Re: Margaret II:

Would that have applied to Princess Margaret if the Queen had died young? Or is this a recent change?
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 06:05:25 AM
I think it was decided in the 60s . . . but I might be wrong.

Now, bell, this is one I can call La pauvre petite Margaret.  ;)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 10, 2005, 09:00:35 AM
Well in the picture you posted I thought she looked rather tall for her age. ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 09:01:32 AM
 ;D ;D Oh, don't trust that - it was probably done about 300 years after she died.  ;)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 15, 2005, 01:16:55 AM
I meant that if Margaret had grown up, married Edward and had him murdered she could have used her imagination (which was Norwegian since she was from Norway) to think of an unusual and cruel form of death. :)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 15, 2005, 11:10:52 AM
I don't know!  but they probably had a few unusual local varieties. :D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 15, 2005, 12:10:28 PM
How about a smack in the gob with some frozen salt cod ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 15, 2005, 12:19:49 PM
Yessss! Any other ideas? ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 15, 2005, 12:41:47 PM
Well I am sure Norwegian food is a culinary delight so how about being wrapped in whale blubber and bombarded with meatballs ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 15, 2005, 12:46:52 PM
while stapled to a christmas tree!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 15, 2005, 01:03:49 PM
This is a very imaginative discussion . . . I've always thought that being slapped with a wet fish of any kind would be AWFUL.  ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 15, 2005, 01:08:14 PM
Come round to ours any friday night.. friday night is "wet fish in the gob" night 8)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 15, 2005, 01:13:15 PM
 ;D ;D ;D I may hold you to that!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: kmerov on September 15, 2005, 08:23:53 PM
So who ruled Scotland while Margaret was Queen?
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 16, 2005, 08:10:53 AM
Hi Kmerov!

A regency council was decided by a parliament of nobles and prelates shortly after Alexander's death. It comprised six "governors" - four noblemen and two bishops Glasgow and St Andrews. It wasn't a very satisfactory arrangement as these men didn't cooperate.

However the arrangement survived (minus two governors who died) until 1290 when the Maid died.

At this point Edward I saw fit to nominate her successor. He chose John Balliol.

A similar regency council was set up (at first) for Mary Queen of Scots.

Hope you didn't object to all the Norwegian jokes by the way, am I right in thinking that you are danish?

Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: ilyala on September 17, 2005, 02:42:02 AM
i was JUST thinking of opening a thread about the what-ifs concerning margaret marrying edward... *sighs*... i really am away too much...

the interesting part is that had they married and had children the scottish and english crowns would have been united a lot earlier than they were...
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 17, 2005, 02:44:38 AM
and there wouldn't have been a Stuart thread to post on here.....
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: ilyala on September 17, 2005, 02:53:04 AM
...and a couple of wars less... :)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 17, 2005, 04:51:19 AM
There were other occasions when this might have happened:

If Elizabeth had died of Smallpox in 1562

If Mary Queen of Scots had married Edward VI and they had produced a child.

If James V of Scotland had married Henry VIII's daughter Mary.

If Henry VIII had died without children (James V would have inherited).

If James IV of Scotland had married Edward IV's daughter Cicely (they were engaged in the 1470s), and Elizabeth of York and Henry VII had died in a bizarre multiple accident.

Can anyone think of any more ifs?


Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 17, 2005, 06:51:57 AM
Well, bell, you seems quite fond of counterfactual history, as am I! Umm . . . I can' think of any more . . . Arbella Stuart had a claim to both thrones. If James I had died childless . . .  ::)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 05:32:08 AM
Or if he had married her instead of Anne of Denmark!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 06:15:57 AM
If Elizabeth and Charles had succumbed to Typhoid in 1612 along with their brother Henry, then the crowns could have separated again.

The heir to England was Arabella Stuart. After her death it would be the descendants of Catherine Grey (i.e. Edward and William Seymour).

The heir to Scotland was the Earl of Arran (one of the Hamiltons anyway). They were the senior line of descendants from James II's daughter Mary. (Hope I've got this right!)

Another interesting possibility would be that Elizabeth and Frederick managed to hang on in Bohemia but converted to catholicism (à la Henri IV). In 1700 they would have no protestant descendants. Thus the Act of Succession would have to look to the descendants of Catherine Grey in England and the Hamiltons in Scotland. The Act of Union in 1707 would never have happened!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 07:14:42 AM
Yes, or what if the Gunpoweder Plot had succeeded, and the rebels made Elizabeth Queen Elizabeth II, but Charles' supporters had him crowned King of Scots - separate again!!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: kmerov on September 19, 2005, 09:25:22 AM
Quote





Hope you didn't object to all the Norwegian jokes by the way, am I right in thinking that you are danish?



Thanks for the info. :)
Yes I'm danish, and no, not at all. You can make all the jokes you want about norwegian people. ;D ;)
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 20, 2005, 11:49:47 AM
Quote

Thanks for the info. :)
Yes I'm danish, and no, not at all. You can make all the jokes you want about norwegian people. ;D ;)


You're welcome. Do feel free to contribute about the Scandinavian connection in the Stuart section. We've done Anne of Denmark on the Scottish consorts thread, and Margaret of Denmark (1456-86) is coming up shortly!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: Kimberly on September 20, 2005, 01:01:02 PM
And you can insult British cuisine as much as you like ;D
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 22, 2005, 04:44:22 PM
though not Scottish cuisine!

I recently gave a friend here in Germany (!) a recipe for cockieleekie soup, which, he assured me, went down very well!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: kmerov on September 25, 2005, 11:13:37 AM
 
Quote

You're welcome. Do feel free to contribute about the Scandinavian connection in the Stuart section. We've done Anne of Denmark on the Scottish consorts thread, and Margaret of Denmark (1456-86) is coming up shortly!

I'm afraid I don't know anything about these women ( :-[), exept that Denmark had to give Scotland the Orkney and Shetland Islands when (I think) Margrete was married, and the country was in lack of money.
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 25, 2005, 12:59:15 PM
Yes, Scotland was allowed to take over Shetland and Orkney until Margaret's dowry was paid. It never was, so Scotland just kept the islands. All of the Hebrides (and I think the Isle of Man) were Norwegian until 1266!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: ilyala on September 25, 2005, 06:14:46 PM
those islands were the dowry of anne of denmark, james 1st's (of england 6th of scotland) wife... or so i thought... :-/

edited to add: anne of denmark that is
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 26, 2005, 12:38:07 AM
Hi Ilyala!

No it was definitely Margaret of Denmark's dowry - She married James III in 1468 or 1469. We drifted off topic I'm afraid and started talking about another Margaret!
Title: Re: The Maid of Norway
Post by: The Test Card Girl on September 16, 2020, 08:33:46 AM
I think the Maid has never been portrayed by a child actress in television or film?