Alexander Palace Forum

Imperial Russia and Romanov Links => Romanov and Imperial Russia Links => Topic started by: Ammie on July 08, 2004, 08:07:04 AM

Title: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Ammie on July 08, 2004, 08:07:04 AM
Here's a link to Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in Rocky Hill, NJ.  It looks like a lovely church.

http://saint-elizabeths.org/

Ammie
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: grandduchessella on July 08, 2004, 11:16:36 PM
In photos it also references Sommerville, NJ--I lived there as a kid!  I'm going home to Delaware at Christmastime and I think I'll be taking a pilgrimage of my own! I hope they have Ella souvenirs--I know, that's tacky of me.  :-[
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Ammie on July 09, 2004, 08:45:16 AM
I don't think its tacky at all!  I'm thinking of making a trip up there sometime this summer.  I live about an hour & a half from Sommerville/Rocky Hill, so says mapquest  ;).
Ammie
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 09, 2005, 05:31:57 PM
Do you know of any Orthodox churches in the north of England, by any chance & is it possible for anyone to recommend a site which compares the beliefs of Orthodoxy & Catholicism...A bit of strenge request, I know, but there you go... ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 09, 2005, 05:33:08 PM
I meant to add, there was once abook I read by Catherine de Hueck Doherty about Orthodoxy & it was very interesting...I can't find it now, any suggestions?
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ,
Post by: ptitchka on January 12, 2005, 07:52:50 PM
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Do you know of any Orthodox churches in the north of England, by any chance & is it possible for anyone to recommend a site which compares the beliefs of Orthodoxy & Catholicism...A bit of strenge request, I know, but there you go... ;)



If you are anywhere near Liverpool, I could not imagine a better place to go than the Chapel of the New Martyr Elizabeth, in Birkenhead.  Some other parishes are listed at www.rocor.org as well.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 12, 2005, 08:56:12 PM
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Here's a link to Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in Rocky Hill, NJ.  It looks like a lovely church.

http://saint-elizabeths.org/

Ammie
I'm only about 20 minutes from Rocky Hill, never knew about this church!
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 15, 2005, 09:42:12 AM
 :) :) :)Oh wow!!! I had no idea that there was one there...I was at uni in Liverpool (centuries ago!) and my father's family come from not far away. That's BRILLIANT! Particularly that it's named after Ella!!! I can't tell you how excited I am!
THANK YOU!! :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 15, 2005, 12:47:06 PM
Thank you still more now because by following your threads I've found one even closer to home! :)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 20, 2005, 05:09:16 PM
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is it possible for anyone to recommend a site which compares the beliefs of Orthodoxy & Catholicism...

Bluetoria, try www.fatheralexander.org
It has heaps of info about Orthodoxy, and I think it has pages comparing Orthodoxy and Catholicism (I haven't read them though).
Georgiy
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 20, 2005, 05:50:02 PM
Thank you very much, Georgiy, I will! :) What is it about Orthodoxy that is so magnetic - even for people who have no direct contact with it.... :-[
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 21, 2005, 04:22:08 PM
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What is it about Orthodoxy that is so magnetic

I don't know, but (walking on eggshells here in anticipation of upsetting other denominations, so please forgive me if I do!) Orthodox means Correct/True Faith/Practice. So it is the original Christian Faith in its fullest expression, which I think is why it is so compelling (if you get into it - to an outsider it might just seem strange) :)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 21, 2005, 04:34:35 PM
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Orthodox means Correct/True Faith/Practice.


Georgyi, do you mean that in the sense as to how it translates from Russian: "pravoslavnaya" literally meaning "the rightly glorified" (or something like that). But doesn't every religious denomination think the same of their own faith?
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 21, 2005, 04:47:43 PM
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Georgyi, do you mean that in the sense as to how it translates from Russian: "pravoslavnaya" literally meaning "the rightly glorified" (or something like that). But doesn't every religious denomination think the same of their own faith?


I was brought up that my faith is 'The One True Faith' but now our Church no longer preaches that...probably because most of us never believed it anyway! There must surely be many way 'to God' according to different cultures and backgrounds & characters. The ESSENCE of all 'true' religions seems to me to be the same. It is, here at least, the week of Christian Unity.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 02:07:54 PM
It is the translation of the Greek word Orthodox.

And, that is why in Russian it is called Pravoslavny - correct worship/glorification. In Japanese Seikyo - exactly the same meaning of Correct Worship.

We believe absolutely that ours is the True Faith passed down to us unaltered from the Apostles, as it says in the Creed: "And (I believe) in One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church." - that is, the Orthodox Church (catholic here meaning universal and for all peoples).
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 02:19:04 PM
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We believe absolutely that ours is the True Faith passed down to us unaltered from the Apostles..


But this is what everyone seems to believe about their own faith.  


Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 03:54:57 PM
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We believe absolutely that ours is the True Faith passed down to us unaltered from the Apostles..  
 
 
 
But this is what everyone seems to believe about their own faith.


:)
But if we look specifically at Christianity, we are faced with the fact that there are three different Churches which can be traced back to the beginning of Christianity - Othodoxy, Catholicism, and the Monophysite Churuches (Syrian, Coptic etc). The Monophysites fell away from the other Christians in the 500s, the Catholics from the Orthodox in 1054. If we read through the theology and history, it seems clear enough (to me at any rate  :D) that the Orthodox Church is the one which has kept the Faith as handed down to it without change.  
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
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 ... it seems clear enough (to me at any rate  :D) that the Orthodox Church is the one which has kept the Faith as handed down to it without change.  


I''m sure you're right as you know a lot more about this than I do. I do remember reading that early Christianity itself (when it was techically just a branch of Judaism) was strongly revised by Saul/Paul, while the rest of the apostles were totally against what he came up with, so it just depends which apostle you want to go by, I guess  ;).  
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 05:23:41 PM
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I''m sure you're right as you know a lot more about this than I do. I do remember reading that early Christianity itself (when it was techically just a branch of Judaism) was strongly revised by Saul/Paul, while the rest of the apostles were totally against what he came up with, so it just depends which apostle you want to go by, I guess  ;).  


Yes, Paul of Tarsus, as far as most any scholar is concerned, brought into being the *religion* of Christianity, and when it came time to select writings for the Christian canon, well, most of it wound up being written by Paul, and it was he who spread the new faith in the near east cities of the Roman Empire, and even unto Rome.
The apostles, well, Peter, James, and their gang, were of course suspicious and jealous of Paul's success and they clearly didn't consider him a true "apostle."

Anyway, I do agree that as far as Christianity goes, the Orthodox (some would say the Armenian Orthodox, particularly) has stayed truest to the "official," earliest organized faith.

Personally, I prefer the books that were left out of the canon, as I suspect they come closer to the truth of many matters, and Constantine, after all, was really only interested in the propaganda uses of the curious new faith that had attracted so many.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 05:23:46 PM
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 :)
But if we look specifically at Christianity, we are faced with the fact that there are three different Churches which can be traced back to the beginning of Christianity - Othodoxy, Catholicism, and the Monophysite Churuches (Syrian, Coptic etc). The Monophysites fell away from the other Christians in the 500s, the Catholics from the Orthodox in 1054. If we read through the theology and history, it seems clear enough (to me at any rate  :D) that the Orthodox Church is the one which has kept the Faith as handed down to it without change.  


I studied theology at university - little good did it do me! - I could NEVER understand the reason for the division between the East & West - it always seemed to me to be playing with words rather than any REAL truth. It all boiled down to filioque (& the Son) as far as I could follow! It also seemed very far removed from the Gospels.  In no way am I disagreeing with what you write Georgiy - I am only trying desperately to discover what separates Catholicism & Orthodoxy now.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 05:25:12 PM
Dunno...i do recall that when St Paul went to Jerusalem he only saw Peter and James, but it sounds like modern speculation as the oldest Church histories don't seem to talk about it (from memory - but then they wouldn't anyway I guess). But the striking thing about the early Church is that no matter how geographically seperate from each other  they were, they all professed the exact same faith as each other and maintained the same traditions. They were One Apostolic Church.

We need a thread to talk about the Orthodox Church I guess. Actually an understanding orthopraxia and the Orthodox Faith can help a lot in understanding the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 05:28:46 PM
Will you start one? I should like very much to learn.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 05:30:07 PM
The filioque was a biggie, but also the movement by the Pope to have himself seen as the head of the entire Church played a big part. i'm not sure why they added the filioque as it is scripturally unsound. No doubt there are plenty of extremely scholarly books out there which explain everything! (Though in a way that is so dry, long and complicated it's difficult to get through). The Fatheralexander website has lots of good info about Orthodoxy, like I say, and I am sure you will find clear information on that site, including about the differences between the two Churches.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 05:32:42 PM
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Will you start one? I should like very much to learn.


Not that I could teach anyone anything worth knowing!
I'll have to think about it - I really wouldn't want to do it without a blessing from our Priest. :)

(And here I have been for weeks talking about the Church with no blessing...)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 05:34:08 PM
I have followed the fatheralexander site (THANKYOU!) To be honest it isn't the theology that concerns me (most Catholics understand little of it anyway) it is the spirituality which draws me...but perhaps I should leave it there for now.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 05:36:43 PM
The Orthodox Church is deeply spiritual - I agree - that was the first thing that drew me to her, the absolute truthfulness of the spirituality I felt there - it touched me to the depth of my soul instantly.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 05:37:53 PM
D'accord!  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 05:47:40 PM
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Yes, Paul of Tarsus, as far as most any scholar is concerned, brought into being the *religion* of Christianity, and when it came time to select writings for the Christian canon, well, most of it wound up being written by Paul, and it was he who spread the new faith in the near east cities of the Roman Empire, and even unto Rome.
The apostles, well, Peter, James, and their gang, were of course suspicious and jealous of Paul's success ...

Well, Paul never even met Jesus, while Peter and James knew him well, so can you blame them for assuming that they were more "qualified" to judge and interpret? The story I learned about this went something like this (I hope I get it right): in order to get more recruits for the new Christian sect, Paul decided to "ease" the requirements by first starting to accept gentiles, which wasn't done before. In order to attract even more new recruits, Paul cancelled the dietary laws and the circumcision laws ( from what I understand that one was a big deterrent! ;)) among some other original rules, and generally tried to taylor the new rules so that they appealed to the general public more. After he adjusted these things, a lot more people started to flock to him. The other apostles, like Peter and James, were none too happy with this - they felt that Paul is only adjusting things in order to be popular/get more people in, so this is why they renounced him. So according to this view, although orthodoxy may be the oldest out of the three sects, it is by no means the original, since even Jesus himself did not seem to follow the current version (his was pre-Paul)...  

I am not by any means an expert on any religion, I just happen to remember this story I once read.  I hope this doesn't offend anyone as it is meant purely for discussion purposes. But for me, finding out things like this makes me wonder about the authenticity of any religiouos sect...

Yes, seems that  we could use a section on religion here!  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 05:50:50 PM
Yes, the major argument between Peter & Paul - which only goes to show that things haven't changed much in 2000 years!

Will YOU start the new thread then please? ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 05:54:20 PM
 
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Will YOU start the new thread then please? ;)


Done  :D
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 05:56:59 PM
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Yes, the major argument between Peter & Paul - which only goes to show that things haven't changed much in 2000 years!

 And most likely never will  ;D.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 06:15:52 PM
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Well, Paul never even met Jesus, while Peter and James knew him well, so can you blame them for assuming that they were more "qualified" to judge and interpret? The story I learned about this went something like this (I hope I get it right): in order to get more recruits for the new Christian sect, Paul decided to "ease" the requirements by first starting to accept gentiles, which wasn't done before. In order to attract even more new recruits, Paul cancelled the dietary laws and the circumcision laws ( from what I understand that one was a big deterrent! ;)) among some other original rules, and generally tried to taylor the new rules so that they appealed to the general public more. After he adjusted these things, a lot more people started to flock to him. The other apostles, like Peter and James, were none too happy with this - they felt that Paul is only adjusting things in order to be popular/get more people in, so this is why they renounced him. So according to this view, although orthodoxy may be the oldest out of the three sects, it is by no means the original, since even Jesus himself did not seem to follow the current version (his was pre-Paul)...  

I am not by any means an expert on any religion, I just happen to remember this story I once read.  I hope this doesn't offend anyone as it is meant purely for discussion purposes. But for me, finding out things like this makes me wonder about the authenticity of any religiouos sect...

Yes, seems that  we could use a section on religion here!  ;)


I've got just an undergrad minor in religion but it continues to fascinate and I try to keep up on the new scholarship.  Paul's whole point in "easing" the restrictions had to do with his belief that Jesus himself wanted it that way.  I do believe that Peter, James, et al were behaving like silly twits, Peter was beyond a shadow of a doubt a huge hypocrite and James only joined in the "show" when he realized there was something in it for him (in this world, that is ;) ).  During Jesus' lifetime he was opposed to his brother's ministry to the point of (along with other family members, including Jesus' mother) attempting to basically have Jesus committed or at least keep him from continuing to make a bad name for his family.

As for the original faith, Jesus cannot be the originator of the religion since (at least according to the gospels, which are at the VERY least, highly suspect) he never intended to start a new religion of any type.  As far as any officially organized Christian religion, Orthodox *is* the earliest example and it was based on the practices of the "house churches" established around the region by Paul.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 06:52:26 PM
Didn't Peter have the dream which revealed that all foods were clean? (I can't remember off the top of my head who had the dream, but I am sure it was Peter).
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 06:52:59 PM
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I've got just an undergrad minor in religion but it continues to fascinate and I try to keep up on the new scholarship.  Paul's whole point in "easing" the restrictions had to do with his belief that Jesus himself wanted it that way.  I do believe that Peter, James, et al were behaving like silly twits, Peter was beyond a shadow of a doubt a huge hypocrite and James only joined in the "show" when he realized there was something in it for him (in this world, that is ;) ).  During Jesus' lifetime he was opposed to his brother's ministry to the point of (along with other family members, including Jesus' mother) attempting to basically have Jesus committed or at least keep him from continuing to make a bad name for his family.

As for the original faith, Jesus cannot be the originator of the religion since (at least according to the gospels, which are at the VERY least, highly suspect) he never intended to start a new religion of any type.  As far as any officially organized Christian religion, Orthodox *is* the earliest example and it was based on the practices of the "house churches" established around the region by Paul.
 Well, I figured there has to be another side to the story  ;). How did Paul know that this was what Jesus wanted? He never spoke to him or met him. I know that he supposed to have had a revelation, but suppose for one second that he was wrong ? Why do we want to base everything on one man's revelation (possibly delusion  :-/) ?
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: bluetoria on January 23, 2005, 06:56:13 PM
A very wise person once told me to judge everything 'by its fruits' - the fruits of St. Paul's ministry (& I'm not by any means a St. Paul fan!) was the bringing of Christianity to places beyond Israel. It worked!
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 07:31:29 PM
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Didn't Peter have the dream which revealed that all foods were clean? (I can't remember off the top of my head who had the dream, but I am sure it was Peter).


Yes, exactly.  Then Paul caught him in the act of being a hypocrite because it was all fine and dandy to eat previously forbidden foods (and in the company of ...gasp...the uncircumcised, another former no-no) until one day James and his posse came to visit.  As soon as Peter saw James coming he left the table ;) Paul called him on this, but the two never did really see eye to eye.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 07:36:08 PM
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 Well, I figured there has to be another side to the story  ;). How did Paul know that this was what Jesus wanted? He never spoke to him or met him. I know that he supposed to have had a revelation, but suppose for one second that he was wrong ? Why do we want to base everything on one man's revelation (possibly delusion  :-/) ?


Of course he could have been wrong, because, like you said, he never met the man.  He did apparently have access to the "J" scroll, which was probably a collection of the sayings of Jesus and from which Matthew, Mark, and Luke borrowed heavily.  This is what Paul based his beliefs upon and added to that massive amounts of classical Greek philosophy (which is apprently what Jesus based his teachings on, but we don't know any of that for sure because unless Jesus spoke Greek -- and he likely did -- we have not a single word directly from him) and this is how the Christian "doctrine" was formed.  The basic tenets upon which were built Western Civilization came from Paul, not Jesus.
And that civilization comes with a lot of good and a lot of bad baggage.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 07:38:29 PM
Thanks, Dashkova, that's very interesting!
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 07:42:54 PM
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A very wise person once told me to judge everything 'by its fruits' - the fruits of St. Paul's ministry (& I'm not by any means a St. Paul fan!) was the bringing of Christianity to places beyond Israel. It worked!


It worked, but I wouldn't say it was necessarily a good thing.  Islam spread a great deal more quickly.  

Christianity is built upon pretty much all of the great ancient religions, its themes really weren't anything new, just in a new garb.  Paul, by travelling the Roman roads in the near east, was able to spread the faith (remember at the time "mystic" faiths were quite the fashion among the well-to-do) in the urban centers along those highways.  So, Christianity was very much a citified religion, patronized by wealthy individuals, and in particular, wealthy *women* (Mary Magdalene was very likely one of the earliest).  The interest held by the wealthy naturally got the attention of Constantine (didn't hurt that his mother and daughter converted, as well) and it was he that made the religion "official" which led to the even more rapid growth.  But his decision to make it the official faith of the empire had nothing to do with his personal beliefs, and when he held the council to determine the canon of what would become the New Testament, he made sure the focus was on the "imperial" aspects of Christ, and he ditched most of the books that were of a more mystical quality, including those that clearly spoke of human (particularly, female) equality.
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 07:46:04 PM
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Thanks, Dashkova, that's very interesting!


The study of religious scholarship is one of my greatest passions. :)  If only it were profitable, I would have taken it up in grad school.  History is impoverished enough, but positions as religion scholars are as rare as those for art historians (another passion that unfortunately must remain a hobby!)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 07:52:59 PM
Yeah, that's a shame, because I think it is one of the most interesting subjects. I also really like biblical archeology, which is along the same lines. And I have all the episodes of the "Mysteries of the Bible" on A&E taped ;).
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Dashkova on January 23, 2005, 08:03:48 PM
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Yeah, that's a shame, because I think it is one of the most interesting subjects. I also really like biblical archeology, which is along the same lines. And I have all the episodes of the "Mysteries of the Bible" on A&E taped ;).


Oh yes, I confess to tuning in (sadly, only during breaks) to those shows and others...though sometimes they can get a little too cheesy, my favorite in that category is the one where they talk about UFOs in the Bible...sheesh...talk about mixing mythologies.  But then again, if one is going to buy much of what is written about in the Bible, why not throw in alien involvement with the ancients as well? ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 23, 2005, 08:23:59 PM
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Oh yes, I confess to tuning in (sadly, only during breaks) to those shows and others...though sometimes they can get a little too cheesy...


Yes, sometimes cheesy, but so much fun to watch!  ;)  There are some others on A&E along those lines that are great! What is the one with Avery Brooks called? I forgot.

Quote
...my favorite in that category is the one where they talk about UFOs in the Bible...sheesh...talk about mixing mythologies.  But then again, if one is going to buy much of what is written about in the Bible, why not throw in alien involvement with the ancients as well? ;)


Yes, sooner or later, those UFO's must show up, don't they?  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox church of St. Elizabeth in NJ
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 08:35:53 PM
Ah, the "Chariots of the Gods" school of history!