Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Mediatized Noble Families => Topic started by: Linnea on September 29, 2005, 06:48:55 AM

Title: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on September 29, 2005, 06:48:55 AM
Hey!
Would love to start a new topic about this glamourous family! Please post pics, info, anecdotes etc. about them! :)
Linnea
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Emilia on September 29, 2005, 01:02:18 PM
They seem to be the German counterpart to the Youssupovs! Glamourous and close to all royal families! And they seemed to marry European Princes and Princesses the whole time!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 29, 2005, 06:23:58 PM
And most European dynasties also descended from them...Windsors,Romanovs,Wuerttembergs...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: crazy_wing on September 29, 2005, 06:31:12 PM
Quote
They seem to be the German counterpart to the Youssupovs! Glamourous and close to all royal families! And they seemed to marry European Princes and Princesses the whole time!


That was one way elevate themselves more!  

Quote
And most European dynasties also descended from them...Windsors,Romanovs,Wuerttembergs...

What do you mean?  I don't recall any thurn and taxis members marrying into the romanovs and windsors...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: crazy_wing on September 29, 2005, 06:41:38 PM
(http://www.phonebookoftheworld.com/thurnandtaxis/CarlAlexander.jpg)
Carl Alexander, 5th Prince

(http://www.phonebookoftheworld.com/thurnandtaxis/Therese.jpg)
Carl Alexander's wife Therese (same woman as above)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 29, 2005, 06:58:13 PM
Allmost every royal today descended from Thurn und Taxis family!Karl I von Wuerttemberg married Princess Maria Augusta von Thurn und Taxis and their offspring married among all dynasties witch would include Empress Marie Feodorovna of Russia,born Sophia Dorothea von Wuerttemberg(Maria Augusta von Thurn und Taxis was her grandmother),Queen Mary of Great Britain and through them many others...P.S.Crazy,thank you for lovely portraits agsain,you allways make my day!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 29, 2005, 07:04:14 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/breezer22/MarAuguste1.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 29, 2005, 07:05:13 PM
Princess Marie Auguste von Thurn und Taxis,ancestor of allmost every royal today!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 29, 2005, 08:58:08 PM
Here are some of the Thurn und Taxis family members who married into European royalty:

**Princess Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis (1860-1881), dau. of Heriditary Prince Maximilian von Thurn und Taxis,  m. (1877) Infante Miguel of Portugal, Duke of Braganza

**their daughter, Maria Teresa of Portugal (1881-1945) m. (1900) Prince Karl Ludwig von Thurn und Taxis (1863-1942)

Miguel of Portugal married secondly Princess Theresa of Lowenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg and they had two daughters who also married into the Thurn und Taxis family:

**Elisabeth of Portugal (1894-1970) m. Prince Francis Joseph von Thurn und Taxis (1893-1971)

and

**Maria Anna of Portugal (1899-1971) m. Prince Karl August von Thurn und Taxis (1898-1982)


Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 29, 2005, 09:03:13 PM
I've read that this family was VERY rich, thus the reason for so many royal marriages....

Here are two more:

**Princess Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis (1903-1976), dau. of Prince Albrecht von Thurn und Taxis,  m. (1923) Prince Frederick Christian of Saxony, Margrave of Meissen (1893-1968)

**Prince Louis Philip von Thurn und Taxis (1901-1933) m. (1922) Princess Elizabeth of Luxemburg (1901-1950)

Please list any more royal marriages with this family.  I think there were quite a few more.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 29, 2005, 09:31:05 PM
Here is a list of the Heriditary Princes von Thurn und Taxis, along with their reigning dates and wives:  

**Eugene Alexander (1695-1714) m. Princess Anna von Furstenburg
**Anselm Franz (1714-1739) m. Princess Maria Lobkowicz
**Alexander Ferdinand (1739-1773) m. Princess Sophia Christiana of Brandenburg
**Karl Anselm (1773-1805) m. Duchess Augusta of Wurttemburg
**Karl Alexander (1805-1827) m. Duchess Theresa of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
**Maximilian Karl (1827-1871) m. Duchess Helene in Bavaria (sister of Empress Sissi)
**Maximilian Maria (1871-1885) died childless
**Albert (1885-1952) m. Archduchess Margaret of Austria
**Franz Josef (1852-1971) m. Infanta Elisabeth of Portugal
**Karl August (1971-1981) m. Infanta Maria Anna of Portugal
**Johannes (1982-1990) m. Countess Gloria von Schonburg-Glauchau aka Princess TNT
**Albert (1990-present)

They were certainly well-connected....
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on September 30, 2005, 06:48:31 AM
They are still very rich, although Fürtin Gloria had to "sanify" the family buisness (brawery, wood, many castles, etc.) in the 90s after her husband had died. Her son Albert is said to be the youngest billionare of the world.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on September 30, 2005, 06:59:26 AM
the current family

Albert
(http://images.forbes.com/images/2005/03/07/highlights_1.jpg)

his sister Maria Theresia
(http://www.seegerpress-online.de/topixx/data/pre-SEEGER00001082.jpg)

his sister Elisabeth
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs29/elisabeththurntaxis1982.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TampaBay on September 30, 2005, 01:55:19 PM
Quote
I've read that this family was VERY rich, thus the reason for so many royal marriages....



PC,

Correction!  The family is still very rich!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on September 30, 2005, 02:22:43 PM
Glad you like them :).
Gloria with her daughters Elisabeth and Maria Theresia
(http://manager-magazin.de/img/0,1020,273976,00.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on September 30, 2005, 02:36:51 PM
Albert during his military service
(http://www.manager-magazin.de/img/0,1020,345832,00.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TampaBay on September 30, 2005, 03:26:38 PM
Elizabeth looks like her mother, Princess Gloria T-N-T.

I remember when Gloria made the rounds of all the American talk shows.  Her husband was at least 35 years possibly 40 years (and maybe more) older than she was!  

TampaBay
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allanraymond on September 30, 2005, 03:48:05 PM
Quote
Here is a list of the Heriditary Princes von Thurn und Taxis, along with their reigning dates and wives:  

**Eugene Alexander (1695-1714) m. Princess Anna von Furstenburg
**Anselm Franz (1714-1739) m. Princess Maria Lobkowicz
**Alexander Ferdinand (1739-1773) m. Princess Sophia Christiana of Brandenburg
**Karl Anselm (1773-1805) m. Duchess Augusta of Wurttemburg
**Karl Alexander (1805-1827) m. Duchess Theresa of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
**Maximilian Karl (1827-1871) m. Duchess Helene in Bavaria (sister of Empress Sissi)
**Maximilian Maria (1871-1885) died childless
**Albert (1885-1952) m. Archduchess Margaret of Austria
**Franz Josef (1852-1971) m. Infanta Elisabeth of Portugal
**Karl August (1971-1981) m. Infanta Maria Anna of Portugal
**Johannes (1982-1990) m. Countess Gloria von Schonburg-Glauchau aka Princess TNT
**Albert (1990-present)

They were certainly well-connected....


A small correction:

**Maximilian Karl (1827-1871)  was not married to  Duchess Helene in Bavaria (sister of Empress Sissi)

it was his son  Maximilian Anton Lamoral (born 1831 died 1867) who was married to Duchess Helene

**Maximilian Karl (1827-1871) in fact

married first Baroness Wilhelmine von Dörnberg (1803-1835)
married second Princess Mathilde Sophie zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Oettingen- Spielberg (1816-1886)

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 01, 2005, 03:03:48 AM
Quote
Elizabeth looks like her mother, Princess Gloria T-N-T.

I remember when Gloria made the rounds of all the American talk shows.  Her husband was at least 35 years possibly 40 years (and maybe more) older than she was!  

TampaBay

Heehee...
Johannes 11th Prince of Thurn und Taxis (b. 5 Jun 1926 Regensburg, d. 14 Dec 1990 Munich) married Countess Mariae Gloria von Schönburg-Glauchau (b. 23 Feb 1960 Stuttgart) on May 30th 1980 in Regensburg.
Their children are:
1. Princess Maria Theresia (b. 28 Nov 1980 Regensburg)
2. Princess Elisabeth (b. 24 Mar 1982 Regensburg)
3. Albert 12th Prince of Thurn und Taxis (b. 24 Jun 1983 Regensburg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on October 01, 2005, 03:49:01 AM
It seems that all reigning Princes von Thurn und Taxis in the end married equaly!Schoenburg(Countly branch) family was considered equal...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 01, 2005, 03:59:37 AM
The material grandmother of Gloria is actually a Russian princess, Maria Pavlovna Galitzina.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 01, 2005, 01:16:32 PM
Gloria and her daughters are always wearing strange clothes.  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Emilia on October 03, 2005, 06:33:43 AM
Any ideas whom the children (especially Albert) of Gloria will marry?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TampaBay on October 03, 2005, 10:19:40 AM
Quote
Any ideas whom the children (especially Albert) of Gloria will marry?


How about one of the Princesses of York for Albert T-N-T?

Are the T-N-Ts Protestant or Catholic?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 03, 2005, 10:31:29 AM
they are catholic
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 03, 2005, 12:41:52 PM
Albert once said that his wife has to be a catholic princess.  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TampaBay on October 03, 2005, 01:06:48 PM
How old are the young Austrian ArchDuchesses?  Otto von Hapsburg's grandaughters?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 03, 2005, 01:20:21 PM
Quote
Albert once said that his wife has to be a catholic princess.  ;)

because his mummy said this!! ;D Well, when you marry Albert, you can be sure you get Gloria too!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 03, 2005, 04:29:30 PM
Heehee, Otto's granddaughters?  ;D

Eleonore is 11 (born on 28 February 1994 in Salzburg) and her sister Gloria, whose godmother was Gloria of Thurn und Taxis, will be 6 on 15 October.

Zsofia is 4 years old (born on 12 January 2001 in Budapest) and her sister Ildiko is 3 (born on 12 June 2002 in Budapest).

So if Albert wishes to marry one of these Archduchesses he has to wait at least until Eleonore's 18th birthday in February 2012.  :P
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TampaBay on October 04, 2005, 05:29:24 AM
What about Charlotte daughter od Princes Caroline of Monaco/Hanover.  This would be a macth made in "Banker's" heaven.  Would she be considered an equal match?

TampaBay

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 04, 2005, 08:44:32 AM
hmm... I don´t know. Charlotte is "only" 25 % royal.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on October 04, 2005, 11:58:12 AM
some Princesses/Countesses for Albert:
Princess Alix de Ligne, daughter of Prince Michael de Ligne and Princess Leonor de Orleans-Braganza; Princess Amelia de Orleans-Braganza, daughter of Prince Antonio of Orleans-Braganza and Princess Christine de Ligne; Princess Tatjana Galitzina, daughter of Prince Peter Galitzin and Archduchess Maria Anna of Austria; Countess Eleonore zu Toerring-Jettenbach, daughter of Count Hans-Kasper zu Toerring-Jettenbach and Countess Maria Elisabbeth zu Waldburg-Zeil...
Of whom do you think?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 04, 2005, 01:15:19 PM
About 25 years ago, Robert Lacey the renowned writer hosted a TV series called"Aristocrats" with an accompanying book. The family were the german nobles featured.Gloria and the Prince came over very well.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Frederika on October 15, 2005, 04:22:38 PM
a list of rules from Thurn und Taxis

1117-?      Reunerius I
1512-1517 Franz I
1517-1541 Johann I
1541-1612 Leonhard I
1612-1624 Lamoral I
1624-1628 Leonhard II
1628-1676 Lamoral II Klaudius
1676-1714 Eugene Alexandar I
1714-1739 Anselm Franz I
1739-1773 Alexandar Ferdenand I
1773-1805 Karl Anselm
1805-1827 Karl Alexandar I
1827-1871 Maximilian Karl I
1871-1885 Maximilian I
1885-1918 Albrecht I

http://pavos7.tripod.com/worldleaders
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: TheSaunterer on October 31, 2005, 07:49:08 PM
Quote
They seem to be the German counterpart to the Youssupovs! Glamourous and close to all royal families! And they seemed to marry European Princes and Princesses the whole time!



I agree, beautiful family (and that's not all they have in common with the Yussopovs ;)). There is a hilarious account of Prince Johannes and his penchant for crude practical jokes in Massimo Gargia's book, Jet Set: Memoir of An International Playboy.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eurohistory on November 05, 2005, 06:44:39 PM
I do not think that Albert is bound any longer to marry within the Gotha, as generations of his illustrious family ave done with such amazing success.

Of Otto' granddaughters, only perhaps Karl's eldest child would be in the same age group.  I think Albrecht TnT is seven or eight years older than this girl.  The other granndaughters of Otto, who are archduchesses, are too young perhaps.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 06, 2005, 08:10:50 AM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/AblMargTaxis.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 06, 2005, 08:13:21 AM
Painting showing Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis(on the horse leading the regiment) and Princess Margarethe von Thurn und Taxis,born Archduchess of Austria(in the carriage) by Kunz Wedlich!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Danjel on January 08, 2006, 04:48:59 PM
  Does anyone have pics of prss Eulalie? First she was engaged to Prce Rafael Rainer of Thurn und Taxis and later she married his brother Philipp Ernst.

I do have the picture of the engament of Eulalie and Rafael, (Rafael later married Prss Margarethe of Thurn u. Taxis), which I will post later, but no pics of Eulalie and Philipp Ernst..

Thanks!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Danjel on January 08, 2006, 04:56:48 PM
Eulalie's engagement to Prce Rafael Rainier
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/engagementtoPrcerafael.jpg

Prce Rafael Rainier
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/PrceRaphaelRainer.jpg

and his final wedding to Prss Margarethe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/thurntaxisPrinceRaphaelRainierandhi.jpg
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on January 09, 2006, 04:09:14 PM
Very interesting...the last picture I have never seen!If you have please post some more of them-thank you!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Danjel on January 10, 2006, 06:03:41 AM


apparently, she said NO to prce Rafael and YES to his brother.....the day after!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rebecca on January 10, 2006, 03:14:04 PM
Quote

apparently, she said NO to prce Rafael and YES to his brother.....the day after!




It is a lady's privilege to change her mind. ;D

More seriously, this is a picture of princess Eulalie and prince Philipp Ernst on their wedding day.

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6534/philippocheulalia4dy.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on January 11, 2006, 10:00:05 AM
Quote



It is a lady's privilege to change her mind. ;D

More seriously, this is a picture of princess Eulalie and prince Philipp Ernst on their wedding day.

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6534/philippocheulalia4dy.jpg)


I have been thinking of writing an article on this topic for sometime ... Lila changed her mind the day before her first wedding.  
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rebecca on January 11, 2006, 04:24:51 PM
Quote

I have been thinking of writing an article on this topic for sometime ... Lila changed her mind the day before her first wedding.  



Please do. I think it would be very interesting! :)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MegWhite on February 14, 2006, 08:34:52 AM
I´m interested in the seventh Prince of Thurn and Taxis. I know that he died very young and was the favourite child of his mother Helene. Has anyone more information and pictures? Thanks.  ;D
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2006, 10:41:37 AM
Max was "Bubi" according to Marie Valerie's diary.  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: José on February 15, 2006, 02:12:54 PM
What did he died of at just 23 years old ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 15, 2006, 03:40:49 PM
Maximilian has always been in bad health. He died because of a disease of his lungs on 2 June 1885 in Regensburg.

BTW: I think he was the most adorable royal of all times ...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 15, 2006, 03:42:42 PM
Quote
Yes...Franz Josef's yougest brother Ludwig Victor was also "Bubi" as was Alfonso XIII.  ;D


Duke Carl Theodor's younger son Franz Joseph (1888-1912) was also nicknamed Bubi. This name seemed to be very popular.  ;)
It comes from the German word "Bub" which means "boy" - and little boys are simply called "Bubi".
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2006, 08:07:25 PM
Yes...It was hearbreaking to read how much he had wanted to live... :'(
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Linnea on February 16, 2006, 02:07:37 AM
Quote
Yes...It was hearbreaking to read how much he had wanted to live... :'(


Oh, could you please tell more about this, Eric_Lowe?  ::) It sounds very interesting!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2006, 06:47:35 AM
I read somewhere he said begged the doctors to save him as he wanted to live. It was in the Thurn & Taxis's book in German. Will try to find the exact quote.  ::)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 16, 2006, 09:16:02 AM
Quote
I read somewhere he said begged the doctors to save him as he wanted to live. It was in the Thurn & Taxis's book in German. Will try to find the exact quote.  ::)


You can find some information on Maximilian in the following German books:

- Das Fürstliche Haus Thurn und Taxis. 300 Jahre Geschichte in Bildern by Martha Schad and Martin Dallmeier

- Zwei Bräute für einen Kaiser by Sigrid Maria Größing (but I think Größing belongs the worst authors on earth)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 12, 2006, 05:49:31 PM
Hello!

Anyone has portraits of Maria Theresia von Thurn und Taxis, daughter of prince Karl Alexander von Thurn und Taxis and his wife, born princess Theresa Mathilde Amalia of Mecklemburg-Strelitz? Maria Theresia married Paul Esterhàzy, who was for a time austrian ambassador at Saint James Court.

By the way, I´m also interested on Theresa Mathilda, Maria Theresia´s mother. She was a niece of Queen Charlotte of England, and a sister of unforgettable queen Louise of Prussia. I just now that she had an affair with a count Maximilian of Lerchenfeld, and they had an out-of-wedlock beautiful daughter, Amalie von Krüdener Adlerberg, painted by Joseph Stieler...

Thanks in advance for more info and portraits!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 15, 2006, 04:42:27 PM
 I find Mathilde Therese not very beautiful...if I compare her to her sister Louise. I never have seen portraits of Charlotte or Frederika, the other sisters. Amalie or Amélie was a real beauty, and also queen Theresa of Bavaria...

Have you any picture of Maria Theresia, the daughter of Mathilde Therese by her husband Karl Alexander?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 16, 2006, 04:44:07 AM
Thanks a lot, MarieCharlotte! I find Mathilde Therese not very beautiful...if I compare her to her sister Louise. I never have seen portraits of Charlotte or Frederika, the other sisters. Amalie or Amélie was a real beauty, and also queen Theresa of Bavaria...

Have you any picture of Maria Theresia, the daughter of Mathilde Therese by her husband Karl Alexander?

I agree with you ... Therese wasn't a real beauty. But in those days she was considered to be on of the most beautiful princesses in whole Europe. A lot of noble men admired her and she also had many intimate relationships to different men.

I'm sorry but I don't have any picture of her daughter Maria Theresia.  :(
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 16, 2006, 11:30:59 AM
Don´t worry!

By the way, MarieCharlotte...you have post that Therese had "many intimate relationships to different men". Can you provide me more info about it? I thought that she was faithful to her husband...with the exception of count von Lerchenfeld, of course!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 18, 2006, 01:44:58 PM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/MTEsterhazy.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on September 18, 2006, 01:45:55 PM
Small portrait of Maria Theresia von Thurn und Taxis,later Esterhazy...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 18, 2006, 05:14:16 PM
Thanks, Marc! She´s a nice girl, but not a beauty as her half-sister Amelia/Amelie. Do you know anything about her life?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 26, 2006, 01:31:22 PM

Therese Mathilde and her sisters were educated at the court of Darmstadt by their maternal grandmother Marie Louise. When Therese was old enough to marry, her father thought of an English prince, maybe even of the Prince of Wales. But then Carl Anselm of Thurn und Taxis asked Queen Charlotte of England for help. They decided that Therese should Carl Anselm’s son Karl Alexander. The couple met each other in May 1789 for the first time and fell in love. Only two or three weeks later, Therese and Karl Alexander married in the castle of Neustrelitz.

Carl Anselm has already been very ill and so the hereditary prince and his wife had to do a lot of representation. In 1790 they participated at Emperor Leopold II.’s coronation and two years later they went to Frankfurt am Main to see Franz II.’s coronation.  Later she met Napoléon in Paris. In the first years of her marriage, Therese was interested in art and literature, but soon she also got interested in politics. In her opinion it was her duty to fight for the rights of her family, especially for their sovereignty and their rights concerning the postal services.  Therese also represented her family during the Congress of Vienna. She was called “the only man in the Thurn und Taxis family”. The most important men, for example Metternich, Talleyrand and Alexander of Russia, met in her room and talked about what to do in Europe.

As her husband Karl Alexander was only interested in hunting, Therese started to have some intimate relationships. Therese is the alleged mistress of Alexander of Russia and Talleyrand. As we have already mentioned, she also had some illegitimate children by Maximilian Lerchenfeld. In fact, his job was only to accompany Therese on her travels. When Maximilian died, Therese wasn’t mourning for long. She met her new lover Alexander von Miltitz in Dresden in 1810. Three years later, Therese had a miscarriage and became seriously ill. From that time on, she retired.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 26, 2006, 01:44:19 PM
Therese Mathilde and Karl Alexander had eight children:

1) Charlotte Louise (1790-1790)
2) Georg Karl (1792-1795)
3) Maria Theresia (1794-1874)
4) Louise Friederike (1798-1798)
5) Maria Sophia Dorothea (1800-1870)
6) Maximilian Karl (1802-1871)
7) Friedrich Wilhelm (1805-1825)
8.) Friedrich Johann Nepomuk (1772-1805)


Maria Theresia's husband was the Austrian ambassador at the English court in London.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 26, 2006, 01:49:27 PM
Mathilde Therese's son hereditary prince Maximilian Karl married his first beloved wife Wilhelmine von Dörnberg ("Mimi") against the will of his mother Therese.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 26, 2006, 05:06:31 PM
 It seems to me that Theresa Mathilda had a very passionate life. Can you add information about her children, please? ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 27, 2006, 02:36:36 PM
Dear Yseult,

I'm not at the source of supply concerning the Thurn und Taxis. I only have two books about them.

Georg Karl, the first son of the hereditary prince and his wife Therese, died at the age of three. They were devastated, because they didn't have another son ... Maximilian Karl was finally born in 1802.

Maximilan Karl and his youngest brother Friedrich Wilhelm were educated in Hofwyl in Switzerland from 1816-1820. In 1825 he traveled to Italy and Switzerland. On his way back home he had an accident near Schloss Taxis. He fell off his horse and was hurt seriously. He died on September 7th.



 
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on September 27, 2006, 04:17:58 PM
I´m really grateful, Marie! I have enjoyed so much reading what you have writted about Therese Mathilde and her family, and, of course, looking at all these wonderful portraits.

Thanks a lot and a great smile!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on October 09, 2006, 05:34:13 AM
Lovely portraits!Are there any of the other members of the family?Specially of Helene von Thurn und Taxis(Sissi's sister) or her husband?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2006, 05:28:23 PM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/EugTaxis.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2006, 05:29:27 PM
One more of Eugen Alexander...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2006, 05:33:46 PM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/MarAug.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2006, 05:37:36 PM
And here is a portrait of Maria Augusta von Thurn und Taxis,later Duchess von Wuerttemberg,ancestor of many royals,including Queen Elisabeth II...if you have some more colour portraits(they are wonderful),please post and specially if you have of Maria Augusta...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 04, 2007, 02:13:27 PM
Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.
In memory of
Prince Paul Maximilian Lamoral, cr Herr von Fels by the King of Bavaria 1879 (b. 27 May 1843- d. Cannes 10 Mar 1879); m. Astheim 7 Jun 1868 Elise Kreutzer
  1e) Heinrich von Fels (b. 30th June 1867-  ); m.NN

„Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis was disowned by his haughty family, and resigned from the Bavarian Army” Desmond Chapman-Houston. “Paul had kept a secret diary, about the alliance between him and Ludwig, where he wrote his inner most thoughts. After Ludwig turned his back on Paul, and his indiscretion, the von Thurn und Taxis family destroyed all evidence of Paul, including diary, photos etc” Christopher McIntosh.

The only memories left of Paul is his letters to his beloved Ludwig. Most of this correspondent is preserved in the archives of the Wittelsbachs family. Some time before his death Ludwig demanded all his letters to Paul returned from the von Thurn und Taxis family to him. Some are copied in the book written by Desmond Chapman-Houston.

 Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.   “Ludwig’s first and most intimate relationship had undoubtedly been with his aide-de-camp Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis. The to young men where lost in a rush of romantic enthusiasm. They spend every moment together, in the silent countryside, in the dark alpine forests, racing from one hunting lodge to the next to curl up alone together before roaring fires, in each others arms” Greg King.“Beloved Ludwig! Oh Ludwig, you could not have made me happier than by calling me to your side, you ask whether I thought of you-you know that you are my only thought…that your image is always before my eyes!” “I will always think of you in love. Farewell dear Ludwig, I embrace you and press you to my faithful heart” Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.“Their love affair started some time before 27th of October 1863, and had a very great impact on both, but for Paul, Ludwig would be his only love until the day he died” Christopher McIntosh.

“The second occasion Ludwig went out on his own was equally significant, he made his way to the door of his new friend and aide-de-camp. The apartment was situated in 82 Türken Strasse, and Paul had undoubtedly taken it to be near the Residenz” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

To continue....
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 04, 2007, 02:16:29 PM
“Let me assure you that I shall always foster with the same sincerity the feelings of gratefulness and faithful love which I bear for you in my heart. Remember with love, your faithful Ludwig” Written by Ludwig II to Paul. Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.

“Ludwig had already decided that he must have Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis all to himself, it makes it plain that in their intimacy, as was inevitable, it was Ludwig who took the initiative” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

“But soon that confidence was to receive a jolt. Jealous tongues had started to wag, attempting to discredit the Ludwig’s companion, and evil and untrue rumours reached Ludwig’s ears that Paul lived a frivolous life. Having little malice in his own nature, Ludwig could never get used to it in others and at first he probably took the rumours about Paul at face value” Christopher McIntosh.

“But for all the protestations of undying love, the relationship was doomed. Ludwig’s feelings for his friend grew deeper and developed into great love, but the friendship was so precariously balanced that the slightest tremor of reality threatened to send it plummeting to oblivion. Paul again “faltered” making a wrong choice, saying the wrong word, displaying too much familiarity on one occasion and not enough affection on another. Trivial in themselves, such incidents preyed upon Ludwig’s mind until they became unbearable. Once and for all, he cut Paul out of his life. Apparently the final indiscretion was so trivial that even Paul himself was unaware of it. When he learned of his fall from grace, he sent some agonized letters to the King, but there was to be no respond from Ludwig” Greg King.

“Paul’s letter to Ludwig is undated, but must have been written somewhere about the middle of December 1866” “My own bellowed Ludwig! What in the name of all the Saints has your Friedrich done to you? What did he say that no hand, no good night, no Auf Wiedersehen favoured him? How I feel I cannot say, my trembling hand may show you my inner disquiet. I did not intend to hurt you. Forgive me; be good again with me, I fear the worst-I cannot stand this. May my notes climb to you reconcilingly. Amen! Forgive your unhappy Friedrich” Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.      

(Friedrich a nickname Ludwig had given Paul)  

“For some time Paul had felt the demise of Ludwig’s affections towards him, from midst November 1866, he started to drink without limits and in a state of turmoil and distress ended up with the infamous actress Elise Kreutzer, with whom he spend a night at a local boarding house, he was well too drunk to remember, the next morning they parted but in the end of December 1866 she proclaimed him to be the father of her unborn child” Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.

“Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis were, by his family, forced to marry Elise witch was morganatically, and thereafter was disowned by them, and striped of all his titles, rank and birthrights. Paul kept writing to Ludwig but without any reply, in the end he begged his King to give him a title, and in 1879 Ludwig issues the Almanach de Gotha stated that Prince Paul had renounced his birthright, and his name, had been `inscribed upon the list of the nobility of Bavaria as Monsieur Fels” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

“After their final break up Paul would never see his beloved Ludwig again, and died a humble death in Cannes, remembering the only true love of his life” Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.

Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 04, 2007, 04:32:20 PM
In my reply concerning Paul von Thurn und Taxis I quoted the author incorrectly, the correct quote will be: "and in the 1875-80 issues the Almanach de Gotha stated (Ludwig II) that Prince Paul had renounced his birthright, and his name, had been `inscribed upon the list of the nobility of Bavaria as Monsieur de Fels” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

Also it is believed by many of the authors that this was the first romantic relationship any of the too young men had, and even though it was Ludwig who terminated it, he was devastated by it.


Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 04, 2007, 05:11:08 PM
Only when I had read several books, on the topic, the true story began to emerge, living in a world, where the love these two men shared for each other, where considered inappropriate and more than that a severe sickness in this Victorian era, Ludwig being of such a sensitive character, the pressure of the envious servants, courtiers and nobles, must have been very painful to him and in the end his nervous constitution finally jolted his love for Paul, and as devastating it must have felt for him, he himself where never strong enough or dared this forbidden path, and listening to all the different rumours, he now proceeded to close the affair, by sending a letter not to Paul but to his cousin the Empress Elisabeth of Austria “Friedrich is out of favour so I had to remove him; a better one is now in his place”. Paul being of a somewhat stronger constitution, through himself into the love affair with the eager of his youth, unfortunately for him only his love for his King was everlasting, and when he heard from his family, that Ludwig had dismissed him, he fell apart right there and then.......Yes it is a very sad story.       

Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2007, 08:20:33 PM
Indeed ! It is sad that there are only snipets of Paul's life. Otherwise it could be a full bio.  :(
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 05, 2007, 08:55:23 AM
That is not exclusively true, there are a large amount of letters, witch where correspondent between Paul and Ludwig, from 1863 until 1866, and there is records about both in the secret archives before this period, remember they where 2. cousin’s and mentioned in a number of reports from various excursions’ by family members, and they must have meet during adolescents’ the difficult part is to find out about his life after, 1867 until his death in 1879, we know that he send a number of letters during this phase to Ludwig, which he never got a reply from but these letters is rather important in finding out about his later life, and we have to remember that there was a child whom Paul most have helped to raise and if there is any grandchildren that would also give a mountain of information, one of the reason’s why all the letters from Paul to Ludwig and reverse never got published happened because all the focus was on the King and not on the love affair or Paul’s life. All these letters is still in the archives of the Wittelsbachs family. So are you in for a trip to Bavaria? I’m game.




Byron.     
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2007, 08:17:12 PM
Sounds very tempting !  ;) I have been in the Wittelsbach archiev in Munich...looks like another trip may be in order.  ;D
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 08, 2007, 10:13:50 AM
Hi There

Sounds great  ;), did you see all the letters from Paul to Ludwig? Do you read german? What more did you find in the archives? I´m very serious about this, would be a great help to go with someone who has been there and knows where every things is. Let me hear from you.  ;D

Byron
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2007, 08:27:52 PM
Unfortunately I don't know German so may need help.  :( I went there before doing research on the sisters of Empress Sisi. A good size building where things are put in boxes and people wear gloves to sample old letters, photos and prints.  ;D
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 09, 2007, 11:25:40 AM
Have any of you read the book by Katerina Von Burg “Windsor Publications" bearing the title “The man and the mystery”.
It’s rather strange but it seems to me that she belittles Paul and Ludwig’s relationship and making a womanizer out of poor Paul. But when I read the letter’s from Paul to Ludwig they are full of very hard felt love for his King, and other sources declaring the rumours for being untrue but Katerina Von Burg keep ignoring their feelings for each other and belittles them and have sympathies towards Sophie and other women and almost trying to make a “straight” King out of Ludwig. She is very fair to her description of Otto but turns Paul into a cold calculating women lover and she believes all the rumours being true contrary all the male writers whom has described and read the same letter’s and sources as she and they all have a entirely opposite opinion. There is another book from Martha Schad that completely removes all information about Paul. Why I desire to get to the foundation of this, and hope to get a lot of aid from those intrigued in doing so.


Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 09, 2007, 11:37:12 AM
What a hoot, I forgot to mention that Katerina Von Burg actually tries to vindicate King Ludwig for being accused of madness witch is a noble effort, but why sacrifice Paul on this account?


Byron
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2007, 08:03:51 PM
I have not read that book by Katherina Von Burg. I got the two on Sisi and Ludwig though. Both in English.  ???
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 10, 2007, 06:04:02 AM
How much information does those book’s contain regarding Paul von Thurn und Taxis?  ;)


Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2007, 08:02:05 PM
Not much...The Chapman book is the best I think.  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 11, 2007, 03:36:42 PM
Maximilian Anton of Thurn und Taxis

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/erbprinz3.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on January 12, 2007, 05:38:44 PM
I have read the books by Von Burg and Greg King as well and some more, I read that they saw Paul, as the villain, in the book by Mayer-Ofen from the 1930th; he describes Paul as the main source for a group trying to dethrone Ludwig, it’s a bit funny after reading Desmond Chapman-Huston´s book, which is very straight forward and one of the only authors to use the sources in an appropriate manner. What is the book by Corti like?


Byron.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on January 29, 2007, 04:04:41 PM
I remember seeing a painting of Paul as Lohengrin in a book (about Ludwig II or bavarian history in total?) when I was a child. I flipped through all my own books and went to the main library here in Munich at the Gasteig, but all a found was a very bad drawing probably composed after this painting in book named: Er war ein König. Ludwig II von Bayern. Erlebtes, Erforschtes, Erdichtetes von Zeitgenossen und Nachfahren. It was written by a man called Ludwig Hollweck and published in 1979. The drawing is on side 164. (No, I don't have a scanner.)

Paul sang and played Lohengrin several times for Ludwig around 1865. The painting probaly was made at that time too.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 29, 2007, 09:11:05 PM
Dear misha ! Can you find out more about this painting ?  ::)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on January 29, 2007, 11:28:58 PM
I try to find out more. I three or four weeks I will be in Regensburg again (where my family lives and Paul's family lived). Perhaps the picture is to find in a book from the library of Regensburg. But don't be to optimistic. It was a long time ago (25 years?) I saw this picture and the booke might be lost.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 30, 2007, 12:53:31 AM
Thanks ! Hope for some good news. Paul is reallty quite an obsqure figure in history. Even Bryon will be glad I guess... ;D
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on January 31, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u106/Mischa_1968/PaulvonThurnundTaxis1.jpg
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on January 31, 2007, 02:45:24 PM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u106/Mischa_1968/PaulvonThurnundTaxis2.jpg


As you see I found a photo and a drawing of Paul. They are from the book: "Keinen Kuß mehr! Reinheit! Königtum!" It's on Ludwig's homosexuality and was written by Klaus Reichold.  The drawing is the same I mentioned in my posting above.

(And if someone could please tell me how to post the pictures in this forum directly instead of only giving a link I would be very happy  ;D )

Greetings

Mischa
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2007, 08:53:39 PM
Is this an old book ?  :o Thanks for the pic of Paul ! He was cerainly very handsome and brooding in looks...quite a match for Ludwig really !  ;D
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on February 01, 2007, 01:29:08 AM
No, the book was published 2003 by  the "Forum für Homosexualität und Geschichte München" (Forum for Homosexualty and History Munich)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 01, 2007, 08:43:28 PM
Could we still buy it ?  ???
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Mischa on February 02, 2007, 04:28:59 AM
Well, amazon doesn't have it anymore. The only possibilty is probably to buy directly from the "Forum Homosexualität und Geschichte München."
Their phone-number is + 49 89 - 23 26 97 94. You can reach them every tuesday from 10-12 and 14-16 o`clock german time.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 03, 2007, 12:53:12 AM
Thank you rani for those photos!To me Archduchess Margarethe allways seemed very glittering and she herself painted and yet there isn't any portrait of her left(at least that we know)... :(

actually, the cover-story of the january 1988 issue of CONNOISSEUR magazine is titled "having it all"....(or something like that), and it's about gloria (the 'punk rock princess' / 'princess TNT') & johannes.   it has a few interior fotos of St. Emmeram and in one of them, there is a beautiful full-length painting of Margarethe.    she is wearing a long pink gown and what appears to be the ruby necklace that gloria was fond of wearing (it's sort-of 'V'-shaped...).


my copy was lost long ago, and i recently discovered that my local library (the san francisco public library) has the issue, but is missing those pages!  :(  >:(


i'd love to see the fotos again.   maybe someone can find the issue without  any pages ripped out! ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 01, 2007, 02:52:08 PM
I just had a look into the book Der in Bayern immatrikulierte Adel XVII published in 1988. On the pages of the Thurn und Taxis family I found the information that Princess Fernanda of Thurn und Taxis, sister of the late Fürst Johannes and aunt of the current Fürst Albert, adopted a child in October 1966 at Kings County, New York. The child's name is Marina Editha Theresia and she was born on May 12th 1966 in New York. So Princess Fernanda adopted the girl only five months after her birth. The book says that Marina is bearing the title "Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis" and in 1988 (Marina was 22 by then) she still lived with Fernanda in Munich.
Another interesting fact is, that Fernanda's marriage to Franz Joseph of Hohenzollern had already been annuled when the adoption took place. So Fernanda was a single mother as she didn't remarry.

Does anybody have further information about Princess Marina? Paul Theroff doesn't mention her on his sites which is quite surprising for me. Any pictures?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: mardam on April 02, 2007, 02:25:55 PM
Fernanda is not the sister of Johannes, but his niece. She is the youngest daughter of
Franz Joseph (1893-1971).

Sorry, no more infromation about Marina.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 02, 2007, 03:41:59 PM
Fernanda is not the sister of Johannes, but his niece. She is the youngest daughter of
Franz Joseph (1893-1971).

Sorry, no more infromation about Marina.


Ooops, it was really late when I wrote this post. You are absolutely right. I think I mixed her up with Mafalda, Johannes of T&T's sister.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rebecca on April 06, 2007, 08:02:28 AM
I am not trying to be finicking, but was not princess Fernanda the cousin of Fürst Johannes rather than his niece?  ???

Sorry, I have no information on Marina, but I have been wondering about her as well as Fürst Johannes' niece princess Daria (born 1962, daughter of his sister Mafalda and her distant relative prince Franz von Thurn und Taxis). Does anyone have any information about her? Sorry, I know it is off-topic...  :-[
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 07, 2007, 03:20:43 PM
I think we all should check a genealogy first.  ;)

Albert > Franz Joseph > Maria Fernanda

Albert > Karl August > Johannes

So we come to the conclusion that Johannes and Maria Fernanda were first cousins.  ;)

Thanks Rebecca for correcting our faults.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on May 16, 2007, 02:57:17 PM
Marina does not have the title Princess . She has the surname Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis.  The title does not pass through females or to adopted children.

I just had a look into the book Der in Bayern immatrikulierte Adel XVII published in 1988. On the pages of the Thurn und Taxis family I found the information that Princess Fernanda of Thurn und Taxis, sister of the late Fürst Johannes and aunt of the current Fürst Albert, adopted a child in October 1966 at Kings County, New York. The child's name is Marina Editha Theresia and she was born on May 12th 1966 in New York. So Princess Fernanda adopted the girl only five months after her birth. The book says that Marina is bearing the title "Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis" and in 1988 (Marina was 22 by then) she still lived with Fernanda in Munich.
Another interesting fact is, that Fernanda's marriage to Franz Joseph of Hohenzollern had already been annuled when the adoption took place. So Fernanda was a single mother as she didn't remarry.

Does anybody have further information about Princess Marina? Paul Theroff doesn't mention her on his sites which is quite surprising for me. Any pictures?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Lucien on July 26, 2007, 02:43:54 AM
Fürstin Gloria and her daughters Princesses Elisabeth and Maria Theresia attend the Bayreuth Wagner Opera festival.. :-\....:
http://www.ppe-agency.com/show.php?zoektype=2&search=25-07-2007%20German

Courtesy PPE/Coluorpress/T.Schamberger.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Greenowl on July 26, 2007, 07:43:28 AM
I know the Thurn and Taxis family formally owned the castle plus huge estates (comprising mainly forest) at Litomyšl (Litomischl) in eastern Bohemia. Did they actually reside there and when was the castle confiscated by the Czechoslovak state?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on August 01, 2007, 03:57:54 AM
I´m still looking for information about Paul von Thurn und Taxis and his son Heinrich von Fels. Mostly information regarding his last 15 years and what happened to his son Heinrich.

Thousand eyes may see better than two, thanks.

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/larsbyron/princepaulvonthurnundtaxis.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on August 01, 2007, 04:09:13 AM
To be more precise:

Prince Paul Maximilian Lamoral von Thurn und Taxis b. 27 may 1843

cr Herr von Fels by the King of Bavaria 1879 d. Cannes 10 Mar 1879;

m. Astheim 7 Jun 1868 to Elise Kreutzer
 
1e) Heinrich von Fels (b. 30th June 1867-  ); m.NN


Regards

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on August 01, 2007, 04:23:08 AM
The picture a bow is that of Paul von Thurn und Taxis, it’s part of a family group photo, I would like to find the original version, it would be wonderful if you could post it here.

Regards
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on August 01, 2007, 05:03:56 AM
And the last question

And information about the book: "Keinen Kuß mehr! Reinheit! Königtum!" It's on Ludwig's homosexuality and was written by Klaus Reichold. 

Has this book ever been translated into English?
If yes, what is it’s title?


Regards
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on August 02, 2007, 04:45:13 AM
"The title does not pass through females or to adopted children" as an adopted child you actually has the same rights as if it was your naturall parrents. So wouldn´t it only be so because it´s a female adopting.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Norbert on December 30, 2007, 07:38:53 AM
Charming pictures of Gloria's girls but sadly the British royals tend to avoid continental Europe for their spouces either common, royal or aristocratic. It's a war thing....poor old Princess Michael is still treated with great suspicion. I was surprised someone claimed Princess Alexandra of Hanover was not royal.....duh?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on May 12, 2008, 04:36:51 PM
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/Wittelsbach/marielouisetaxisvandyck1629.jpg)

Marie Louise von Thurn und Taxis, gemalt von van Dyck, 1629.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2008, 07:26:49 PM
There are several Maria Louisa's of that time?Which one could it be?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on May 13, 2008, 12:57:15 PM
 
Anthony van Dyck
Portrait of Maria Louisa de Tassis (1611–1638), c. 1629/30
 
 

This picture is considered one of Van Dyck’s most beautiful portraits. The sitter is Maria Louisa de Tassis, the niece of the Imperial Postmaster in Antwerp, Maximilian de Tassis. Facing the viewer is a young woman, approximately nineteen years old. She is wearing a magnificent dress made from skilfully worked silk and lace.

The opulent, almost pompous clothing with the multiple rows of pearl jewellery and the heavy jewels contrast with the obvious youth of the sitter who greets the viewer with a cautious smile.

Her unaffected charisma lends the distinguished pose a certain liveliness. Van Dyck’s technical approach displays the range of possibilities available in portraying the haptic qualities of a surface. The gentle, warm tones of the light brings to life the many folds of the sitter’s puffed up dress and the fluffy feathers of the fans.
 
 
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2008, 02:43:59 PM
Thank you Rani,I always thought it might be someone from Antwerp because van Dyck painted that portrait!Do you have some other information about this branch of the family or any other picture!?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on June 30, 2008, 12:24:40 PM
Inhalt Acht Frauen des Hauses Thurn und Taxis aus fünf Jahrhunderten - Frauen, wie sie unterschiedlicher nicht sein könnten: von der Gräfin zur königlichen und kaiserlichen Hoheit, von der nicht standesgemäßen Ehefrau bis zur Hochadeligen Frau Gemahlin. Sie waren tatkräftig und emanzipiert, charmant und schön, politisch und sozial engagiert, literarisch interessiert und künstlerisch tätig, aber auch unglücklich, verschwenderisch und gefährlich:

Alexandrine von Rye, Gräfin von Varax -
Augusta Herzogin von Württemberg -
Elisabeth von Train -
Therese Herzogin von Mecklenburg-Strelitz -
Wilhelmine Freiin von Dörnberg -
Helene Herzogin in Bayern -
Margarete Erzherzogin von Österreich -
Mariae Gloria Gräfin und Herrin von Schönburg-Glauchau


There will be a chapter about Nene, so maybe we will get some more information about her.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on September 20, 2008, 11:32:48 AM
There are just german articles, here an example about Gloria of Thurn and Taxis.

http://www.welt.de/fernsehen/article2419519/Wer-weniger-schnackselt-der-verhindert-Aids.html

She is so weird. But it´s her point of view.

(http://i35.tinypic.com/11lqwz6.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 10, 2008, 12:14:13 PM
Albert

(http://i38.tinypic.com/w0t5zk.jpg)

(http://i35.tinypic.com/120l4kk.jpg)

(http://i37.tinypic.com/723qqx.jpg)

Therese

(http://i34.tinypic.com/t7zvko.jpg)

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 16, 2008, 05:40:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sRz7HXRQL._SS500_.jpg)

As this book is about the "Fürstinnen" of Thurn und Taxis, it's nonsense to dedicate a whole chapter to Helene. She was only hereditary princess and later the regent for her sons. I guess the author wrote about her, because she is Elisabeth's sister and therefore well-known. This means a lot of people will buy this book and editor and author will earn money.

Someone should write a whole biography about Helene.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on October 19, 2008, 04:49:32 AM
Maria Ana de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1899-1971)  married Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis  (1893-1971)

Isabel Maria de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1894-1970) married Karl August of Thurn and Taxis  (1898-1982)


Any information about their marriages and life in Germany?

Pictures are welcome!  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on October 19, 2008, 05:22:14 AM
And what about Infanta Maria Theresia of Portugal (1881-1945) who married Prince Karl Ludwig von Thurn und Taxis?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Paola on October 21, 2008, 12:55:51 AM
[As this book is about the "Fürstinnen" of Thurn und Taxis, it's nonsense to dedicate a whole chapter to Helene. She was only hereditary princess and later the regent for her sons. I guess the author wrote about her, because she is Elisabeth's sister and therefore well-known. This means a lot of people will buy this book and editor and author will earn money.

Someone should write a whole biography about Helene.
[/quote]

You are right, Marie Charlotte. I bought the book thinking there would be a lot of information and new pictures about Helene and her daughter in law Margarethe and I have to say I was dissapointed. Someone should have full access to the Thurn und Taxis archives and write whole biographies about this two fascinating Thurn und Taxis Princesses.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 21, 2008, 01:38:28 PM
Indeed...Although I heard the archieves in Regensburg is not easy access for researchers.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 24, 2008, 06:55:37 PM
Maria Anna de Braganca
and Karl August of Thurn and Taxis
(http://i36.tinypic.com/2zxqjxx.jpg)

Isabel Maria de Braganca and
Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis
(http://i38.tinypic.com/23suicy.jpg)

The marriage of Isabel and Franz Joseph in 23. November 1920,Bronnbach
(http://i36.tinypic.com/2hhowwl.jpg)

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 25, 2008, 03:05:36 PM
Princess Iniga of Urach has died (I didn´t know it)

Princess Ingia of Urach, Countess of Württemberg died on Wednesday, September 17, 2008, at her home in Aufkirchen, near Starnberg, Upper Bavaria. She was 83-years-old.
Princess Iniga was born on August 25, 1925 at Schloss Niederaichbach to Princess Elisabeth of Luxembourg and Prince Ludwig Philipp of Thurn und Taxis.
The cause of death was cancer. She died in the arms of her son, Inigo. The princess' elder brother, Anselm, was killed in the second world war.

On May 24, 1948, Princess Iniga married Prince Eberhard von Urach at Regensburg.
Prince Eberhard was the 8th child of Wilhelm, Duke of Urach and his first wife, Duchess Amelie of Bavaria. Prince Eberhard died in 1969.
Princess Iniga is survived by five children, Princess Amelie, Mrs. von Einseidel, Princess Elisabeth, Prince Karl Anselm, Wilhelm, Duke of Urach and Prince Inigo, and their families.


Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 25, 2008, 03:31:51 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sRz7HXRQL._SS500_.jpg)

As this book is about the "Fürstinnen" of Thurn und Taxis, it's nonsense to dedicate a whole chapter to Helene. She was only hereditary princess and later the regent for her sons. I guess the author wrote about her, because she is Elisabeth's sister and therefore well-known. This means a lot of people will buy this book and editor and author will earn money.

Someone should write a whole biography about Helene.


@Paola and MarieCharlotte: You are not the only one, who are disappointed. I was so glad that there is a new book, not a single book about Nene, but a new book.
I think the authors have not so much free space to write a good book. Marita Panzer wrote that the correspondence of Helene is destroyed. The family wants a flawless image of the Thurn and Taxis.
Rumors like an affair between Nene and a priest are not so desired :)
And the most inventory are in Regensburg or München. So the most historians need the agreement of Gloria Taxis.



Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2008, 05:35:42 PM
That explained the lack of material on Helene...If they want the whitewashed version of events...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2008, 10:42:43 AM
Maria Benedieta and Isabel Maria as children


(http://i33.tinypic.com/2wom6ah.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: José on November 01, 2008, 12:50:53 PM
Great pictures, Rani.
I've never seen them before.

Who do you reckon is the lady with the couple Franz Josef - D.Isabel ? Any of her daughters ?

Do you have pictures of her daughters and their marriages ?

Also of Infanta D.Maria Anna's wedding and their daughters' ?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2008, 01:07:34 PM
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2i9tm5e.jpg)

Elisabeth and Franz Joseph

(http://i36.tinypic.com/o9e0e8.jpg)

Prince Franz Josephs daughters Helene, Maria Theresia and Maria Ferdinanda

(http://i36.tinypic.com/17uxzo.jpg)

The only son Prince Gabriel
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2008, 01:15:58 PM

Isabel Maria de Braganca and
Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis
(http://i38.tinypic.com/23suicy.jpg)





I don´t think it´s their daughter.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2008, 01:46:38 PM
Clothilde Alberta Maria Franziska Xaveria Andrea (* 1922), married with Johann Moritz Prinz von und zu Liechtenstein

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2ihv4ex.jpg)

Johannes  Baptista de Jesus Maria Louis Miguel Friedrich Bonifazius Lamoral (1926-1990)

(http://i38.tinypic.com/jglb8w.jpg)


Mafalda, Clotilde and Johannes

(http://i38.tinypic.com/16m6lug.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2008, 02:42:30 PM
Sorry for the bad quality!

Franz and Elisabeth in early years

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2ho8epu.jpg)


Isabel and Karl

(http://i38.tinypic.com/xpzibn.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allanraymond on November 01, 2008, 07:57:15 PM
Purely for information, you need to interchange the two brothers, as below.

Maria Ana de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1899-1971)  married Karl August of Thurn and Taxis  (1898-1982)

Isabel Maria de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1894-1970) married Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis  (1893-1971)

Allan Raymond

Maria Ana de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1899-1971)  married Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis  (1893-1971)

Isabel Maria de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1894-1970) married Karl August of Thurn and Taxis  (1898-1982)


Any information about their marriages and life in Germany?

Pictures are welcome!  ;)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 02, 2008, 12:43:53 PM



Isabel and Karl

(http://i38.tinypic.com/xpzibn.jpg)

I mean Maria Anna!! Sorry!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on November 12, 2008, 08:32:41 AM
And what about Infanta Maria Theresia of Portugal (1881-1945) who married Prince Karl Ludwig von Thurn und Taxis?


Oh, I've forgotten her.

If you know something about her, tell us..
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on November 12, 2008, 08:33:51 AM
Purely for information, you need to interchange the two brothers, as below.

Maria Ana de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1899-1971)  married Karl August of Thurn and Taxis  (1898-1982)

Isabel Maria de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1894-1970) married Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis  (1893-1971)

Allan Raymond

Maria Ana de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1899-1971)  married Franz Joseph of Thurn and Taxis  (1893-1971)

Isabel Maria de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal  (1894-1970) married Karl August of Thurn and Taxis  (1898-1982)


Any information about their marriages and life in Germany?

Pictures are welcome!  ;)





Oh dear, I've got comfused and mixed them up..

Sorry!

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on November 12, 2008, 09:03:19 AM
Had Maria Teresa of Portugal and Karl Ludwig von Thurn und Taxis children?!

I looked on 3 pages and all show something different,

Thepeerage: 0
Geneall: 2 (one stillborn, and Maximilian)
royaltyguide: 1 (Maximilian)

Is one of this right or what else?

Please help!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: José on November 13, 2008, 12:25:23 PM
Had Maria Teresa of Portugal and Karl Ludwig von Thurn und Taxis children?!

I looked on 3 pages and all show something different,

Thepeerage: 0
Geneall: 2 (one stillborn, and Maximilian)
royaltyguide: 1 (Maximilian)

Is one of this right or what else?

Please help!

I know they had at least 1, Maximilian (1913-28)

Anyone knows why did he die so young ?

Can someone post photos of Karl-Ludwig and Maximilian ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 14, 2008, 01:10:35 PM
Gloria gets the St. Gregorius-Orden from the Vatikan.
(Article from Vanity Fair 47/08)

(http://i35.tinypic.com/anjvyv.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2008, 01:15:10 PM
Yes...That is her son putting the order on Gloria...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on November 19, 2008, 03:50:37 PM
Dear Rani

And where did you get your information ..  oh, yes,  you lifted it straight from my blog, Royal Musings.  Word for word. No attribution or acknowledgement.   You stole my words without my permission.

The following is on the front page of my blog:


All materials contained on this site are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed or published without the prior approval of Marlene A. Koenig. You can, however, provide a link to the blog or to a post on the blog. Please credit Marlene A Koenig and Royal Musings. Thanks.

Princess Iniga of Urach has died (I didn´t know it)

Princess Ingia of Urach, Countess of Württemberg died on Wednesday, September 17, 2008, at her home in Aufkirchen, near Starnberg, Upper Bavaria. She was 83-years-old.
Princess Iniga was born on August 25, 1925 at Schloss Niederaichbach to Princess Elisabeth of Luxembourg and Prince Ludwig Philipp of Thurn und Taxis.
The cause of death was cancer. She died in the arms of her son, Inigo. The princess' elder brother, Anselm, was killed in the second world war.

On May 24, 1948, Princess Iniga married Prince Eberhard von Urach at Regensburg.
Prince Eberhard was the 8th child of Wilhelm, Duke of Urach and his first wife, Duchess Amelie of Bavaria. Prince Eberhard died in 1969.
Princess Iniga is survived by five children, Princess Amelie, Mrs. von Einseidel, Princess Elisabeth, Prince Karl Anselm, Wilhelm, Duke of Urach and Prince Inigo, and their families.



Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2008, 04:03:43 PM
Now back to the Thurn and Taxis Family.

I am not surprised as Gloria seemed to be quite close to the present pope.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on November 28, 2008, 04:33:26 PM
There is a photo of Gloria with Ratzinger.
On Sunday she was in a talkshow again with her brother Alexander. They talked about Africa and Auma Obama (Obamas sister) was so irritated. Gloria talked about Aids and she said that Africas problem is that there are too many people. Okay..

(http://i34.tinypic.com/308ulja.jpg)
NDR


This photo is so funny

(http://i33.tinypic.com/194msm.jpg)

 I really think that Johannes Taxis married a very young girl, because he was so old and a needed a successor. Am I to mean?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on November 29, 2008, 11:38:31 AM
Johannes was gay, and a bit older, and he needed produce an heir because all of the other male lines were morganatic.  Gloria was noble enough - but no money  -- and they did a test run before the wedding because she was already pregnant at the time of the wedding
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Tony de Gandarillas on December 09, 2008, 11:24:48 PM
Hello,

Has anyone had a chance to read Horacio Silva's article in the recent New York Times Style Magazine?  It states that Princess Gloria von Thurn und Taxis has introduced teas, jams, chocolates, cookies, and sweetly scented candles as part of Gloria von Thurn und Taxis' Tea Time Collection.  It also talks about her wholehearted immersion in the Roman Catholic Church, her large donations to the Church, her hosting conservative Catholic salons, and her trips to Lourdes under the auspices of the Knights of Malta.  The article ends with Horacio asking," I asked Princess Gloria if she had heard the rumors that her friendship with Princess Alessandra Borghese, a fellow conservative Catholic, was of the biblical kind, 'Yes' she said. 'But I don't think that it really matters.  I think that everyone has the right to decide for him- or herself what they want to do behind bedroom doors, and no one of us would ever judge that. And I don't think the Catholic Church does that.' "

 I think a very interesting reply from the wife of Prince Johannes von Thurn und Taxis!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2008, 10:05:17 AM
Wow ! I wonder what Ratzinger (The Pope) will say about that ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on December 11, 2008, 01:05:13 PM

I could have sworn that the Roman Catholic church, through its emissaries, has made it clear about gay relationships.

Gloria appears to be confirming the relationship

Hello,

Has anyone had a chance to read Horacio Silva's article in the recent New York Times Style Magazine?  It states that Princess Gloria von Thurn und Taxis has introduced teas, jams, chocolates, cookies, and sweetly scented candles as part of Gloria von Thurn und Taxis' Tea Time Collection.  It also talks about her wholehearted immersion in the Roman Catholic Church, her large donations to the Church, her hosting conservative Catholic salons, and her trips to Lourdes under the auspices of the Knights of Malta.  The article ends with Horacio asking," I asked Princess Gloria if she had heard the rumors that her friendship with Princess Alessandra Borghese, a fellow conservative Catholic, was of the biblical kind, 'Yes' she said. 'But I don't think that it really matters.  I think that everyone has the right to decide for him- or herself what they want to do behind bedroom doors, and no one of us would ever judge that. And I don't think the Catholic Church does that.' "

 I think a very interesting reply from the wife of Prince Johannes von Thurn und Taxis!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2008, 02:04:14 PM
Indeed...I think the Pope make exceptions to the rules for their friends (Gloria is a firm friend of the pontiff).
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on December 11, 2008, 02:43:17 PM
Indeed...I think the Pope make exceptions to the rules for their friends (Gloria is a firm friend of the pontiff).

I don´t agree, Eric. I don´t imagine the Pope "allowing" Gloria von Thurn und Taxis living her sexuality in complete freedom when the Catholic Church is fiercely conservative about these questions. Don´t imagine the Pope saying: "Gloria, you can do what you want to do behind your bedroom doors".
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on December 13, 2008, 07:44:45 AM
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2mmwide.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on December 13, 2008, 10:09:39 AM
This is Julia of Thurn and Taxis, daughter of Prince Carl Friedrich von Thurn und Taxis and   Monika Anna Brueckner
(http://i33.tinypic.com/dg329c.jpg)

She looks a little bit like Nene

(http://i38.tinypic.com/ve10mr.jpg)

Julias great-aunt is Eulalia Thurn und Taxis, the wife of Philipp Ernst, Nenes grand-son.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on December 21, 2008, 05:39:19 AM
Prinzessin Augusta Elisabeth Marie, wife of Fürst Carl Anselm of Thurn and Taxis (1734-1787).
She tried to kill him, after her financial losses. Carl Anselm had many mistresses and for Augusta it was a humiliation.
Carl Anselm arrested her in Schloss Hornberg. After her death, he married Elisabeth Hildebrand von Train.

Huh, what a strange family story!  :o
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on December 22, 2008, 05:19:57 AM
Genealogy.euweb says, that Augusta and Karl Anselm were divorced in 1776...
Augusta and Karl Anselm were cousins.
In painting from Tischbein Augusta looks like her mother Maria Augusta Wurttemberg, née Thurn-Taxis (look at their faces, especially the noses:)

Marie Augusta (1706-56):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/900-232_Maria_Augusta_von_W%C3%BCrttemberg.jpg/362px-900-232_Maria_Augusta_von_W%C3%BCrttemberg.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on December 23, 2008, 06:22:47 AM
That is not Paul, it is Gustav. I thought it was him.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/21lkn.jpg)

That´s Paul

(http://i40.tinypic.com/1441loy.jpg)




Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Jose II on December 23, 2008, 01:35:56 PM
Albert

(http://i38.tinypic.com/w0t5zk.jpg)

(http://i35.tinypic.com/120l4kk.jpg)


Pr. Albert looks sinister.
May be because he is bald.

My apologies to any bald poster ;-)

Do you know when did the 2nd photo was taken and does anybody have a HQ photo ?
One can distinguish the Duke and Duchess of Bragança and the Margrave of Meissen
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Jose II on December 23, 2008, 01:45:01 PM
I knew she had broken her engagement with R-R and ran to Ph-E but I had no idea she actually left her fiancée standing at the altar.

What a scandal it might have caused...

I guess the two brothers were not that close, at least from that moment on :-)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Jose II on December 23, 2008, 02:07:28 PM
I noticed the wedding was at Schloss Taxis.

I guess the groom had all the doors locked ...  just in case :-)

Merry Christmas to all posters in these boards.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on December 23, 2008, 05:26:43 PM
Albert

(http://i38.tinypic.com/w0t5zk.jpg)

(http://i35.tinypic.com/120l4kk.jpg)


Pr. Albert looks sinister.
May be because he is bald.

My apologies to any bald poster ;-)

Do you know when did the 2nd photo was taken and does anybody have a HQ photo ?
One can distinguish the Duke and Duchess of Bragança and the Margrave of Meissen

On the second picture I can see the Margrave of Meissen and his wife Elisabeth and behind them Dom Duarte of Braganza. I could be wrong, too.
15. 07. 1950, it was ther diamond wedding.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 04, 2009, 09:25:00 AM
(http://i41.tinypic.com/9uvzah.jpg)

Pauline von Metternich-Winneburg (1880–1960), daughter of Fürst Paul Clemens Lothar von Metternich-Winneburg (1834–1906), married Maximilian Theodor Egon Lamoral of Thurn and Taxis (1876–1939). He was the nephew of Maximilian Anton and the son of Theodor Georg Maximilian Lamoral (1834–1876).
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 06, 2009, 01:55:03 PM
Her daughter Princess Margarete von Thurn und Taxis married Prince Raphael of Thurn und Taxis.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/dzy250.jpg)

Paulines nickname was "Titi" :)
She was an great-aunt of Paul Alfons Prinz von Metternich-Winneburg, the husband of Tatiana Metternich. She wasvery popular in her family.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2009, 04:23:51 PM
Cousins marrying each other ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 07, 2009, 04:12:22 PM
Here is the connection between Raphael and Margarete:

Maxmilian Karl Thurn-Taxis (1802-71)
m.1. Wilhelmine von Dörnberg (1803-35)
m.2. Mathilde von Oettingen (1816-86)
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
Maxmilian (1831-67)      Theodor (1834-76)
m. Helene of Bavaria      m. Melanie von Seckendorf
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
Albert (1867-1952)       Maxmilian (1876-1939)
m. Margareta Archdss      m. Pauline von Metternich
of Austria (1870-1955)      (1880-1960)
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
l                                       l
Raphael (1906-93)            Margarete (1913-97)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 08, 2009, 09:23:28 AM
Pauline von Metternich-Winneburg (1880–1960), daughter of Fürst Paul Clemens Lothar von Metternich-Winneburg (1834–1906), married Maximilian Theodor Egon Lamoral of Thurn and Taxis (1876–1939).

Are there any pictures of the couple? Or of Paulinas husband Maxmilian Theodor of Thurn and Taxis? All members of younger lines are usually unknown...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 09, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
Elisabeth Hillebrand, later Frau von Train (1757-1841). The second morganatic wife of Prince Carl Anselm.

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/elisabethtrain.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 09, 2009, 04:42:53 PM
Elisabeth Hillebrand, later Frau von Train (1757-1841). The second morganatic wife of Prince Carl Anselm.

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/elisabethtrain.jpg)

I am sorry Rani, I think it must be mistake. This portrait, which is very beautiful, is from begining of 18th century, decades before Elisabeth Hillebrand was born...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 09, 2009, 05:07:13 PM


The writer of the book "Die Fürstinnen of Thurn und Taxis" Marita a. Panzer took it into her book. She said that could be Elisabeth. Maybe you are right!?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on January 09, 2009, 08:07:10 PM
Are there any other portraits of other maybe less known Fürstinnen of Thurn und Taxis in that book?If there is please post-thanks!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Paola on January 11, 2009, 08:49:40 AM
I wonder why she let the situation go so far to an engagement with one brother when she was in fact  in love with the other brother. In her first engagement picture one sees  that she is not happy. But in every picture she has  sad eyes. Even in her wedding day, she is not so a happy bride.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marlene on January 12, 2009, 01:00:15 PM


She did not leave him at the altar ...

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2008/07/princess-illa-leave-fiance-at-altar.html



I knew she had broken her engagement with R-R and ran to Ph-E but I had no idea she actually left her fiancée standing at the altar.

What a scandal it might have caused...

I guess the two brothers were not that close, at least from that moment on :-)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 16, 2009, 02:02:50 PM
Amalie Sophie Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis, daughter of Maximilian Karl and Mathilde Sophie zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Oettingern-Spielberg
12 May 1844 - 12 February 1867
Married Otto Graf von Rechberg und Rothenlöwen zu Hohenrechberg on 19 April 1865. She died on 12 February 1867 at age 22 at Montreux, Cantin Vaud, Switzerland.
I would love to have informations about her. She died in the same year like her half-brother Maximilian Anton.


Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2009, 07:05:40 PM
I just know that she didn't have children and that they intended in schloss Weissenstein near Stuttgart which her husband adapted,but she never lived up to move in...well,not much of a help,but still...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 19, 2009, 01:58:41 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/30cup10.jpg)

Amalie as a Erbgräfin
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 20, 2009, 02:40:05 AM
Are there any pictures of Gustav Thurn und Taxis (1848-1914) and his wife Karoline, née Thurn und Taxis (1846-1931)? It was first marrriage union betweeen two branches of the family Thurn und Taxis...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Yseult on January 20, 2009, 12:33:48 PM
Yes, beladona. A cabinet, from ebay sales...

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/GustavandKarolineThurnundTaxis.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rebecca on January 21, 2009, 07:09:43 AM
Thanks ! It is clear to me now. Did the couple had children ?


Prince Raphael Rainer and princess Margarete had one son, prince Max Emanuel, born 1935. Prince Max Emanuel has two sons from his second, morganatic, marriage, to a Christa Heinle. Both sons are in marrying age, but I have no information on whether they are married or not. All sources I have seen list them both as unmarried.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on January 21, 2009, 07:53:11 AM
One question...is Gloria and her family in good terms with other Thurn und Taxis relatives?Do they all know eachother or do they visit Regensburg?Don't know if the palace belongs to all Thurn und Taxis family or just to Gloria and her children?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 23, 2009, 08:15:14 AM
I think you are right. Thanks!

(http://i42.tinypic.com/ajnx8i.jpg)

An another Karoline Thurn Taxis (1875 - 1940)
Karoline Thurn und Taxis, Marie Czernin, Fanny Starhemberg and Isabella Deym
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 23, 2009, 08:27:51 AM
Pauline >Titi< Thun und Taxis

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2q3vrt3.jpg)

Marie of Thurn und Taxis

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1q2591.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 25, 2009, 04:45:10 PM
Marie of Thurn und Taxis

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1q2591.jpg)

Marie was very interesting woman with great love to arts.
Rani, you are the specialist on pictures of Thurn and Taxis family  :), do you have any pictures of her husband Prince Alexander (1851-1939)? Or any pictures of her sons:
Erich (1876-1952)
Eugen (1878-1903)
or Alexander (1881-1937), who was later naturalized in Italy as Principe della Torre e Tasso, Duca di Castel Duino? 
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 26, 2009, 01:43:42 PM
(http://i44.tinypic.com/3307c6o.jpg)

Alexander

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/eugen2.jpg)

The one without a number is Eugen

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/alexander.jpg)

Alexander with his first wife Marie Princess of Ligne

Erich and his wife Gabriele countess Kinsky de Wchinitz

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/taxisove-1928_600.jpg)



Marie and Rilke

(http://i44.tinypic.com/10fdiys.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2009, 02:00:12 PM
Sorry to be an idiot, how are they related ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 26, 2009, 02:30:11 PM
Rani, you are wonderful as always!!! Thanks!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 26, 2009, 02:32:59 PM
Sorry to be an idiot, how are they related ?

You mean Princess Maria and poet Rilke? They are not related, of course, but Princess was his great supporter... One of his book is called Duino elegies, after the castle (Thurn und Taxis property), where he lived and wrote it...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2009, 03:27:10 PM
Marie was the wife of Prince Alexander of Thurn & taxis right ? Did he marry a second time ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 26, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
Marie was the wife of Prince Alexander of Thurn & taxis right ? Did he marry a second time ?
Yes, you´re right. Marie (1855-1934) was wife of Alexander Thurn und Taxis (1851-1939). After her death he lived only for five years. I don´t think that he was married again.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 26, 2009, 03:34:37 PM

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/eugen2.jpg)

The one without a number is Eugen


Rani, do you know, who are the other men (better to say boys maybe:)?
Is it known, why Eugen died so young?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Paola on January 27, 2009, 12:43:17 AM

You mean Princess Maria and poet Rilke? They are not related, of course, but Princess was his great supporter... One of his book is called Duino elegies, after the castle (Thurn und Taxis property), where he lived and wrote it...
[/quote]

Castle of Duino is near Trieste. It is a lovely place. Also nearby is Miramare, the palace of Maximilian and Charlotte of Mexico.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on January 27, 2009, 02:15:39 AM

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/alexander.jpg)

Alexander with his first wife Marie Princess of Ligne


I must made a small correction, Rani. Look better what is written on this photo. This is Alexander, son of Erich and Gabriela, neé Kinsky, and his wife Marie Valerie, neé Mazzuchelli, in year of their wedding. I think their marriage was considered as morganatic?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2009, 10:06:56 AM
Yes...according to European royalty rules then. Now the concept of a morganetic marriage is non-existant in most reigning royal houses.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 27, 2009, 10:46:00 AM

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/eugen2.jpg)

The one without a number is Eugen


Rani, do you know, who are the other men (better to say boys maybe:)?
Is it known, why Eugen died so young?


These are peers from the czech royalty. But I don´t know what the names are. Sorry!
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2009, 10:46:57 AM
Czech Royalty ? Who are they ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 27, 2009, 11:09:16 AM
Czech Royalty ? Who are they ?

I would say Thurn and Taxis, too. But the czech line.

Here is a good article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Branch_of_the_House_of_Thurn_und_Taxis
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 28, 2009, 12:07:22 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/article_5926_attachment1.jpg)

Gloria

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/RilMaria.jpg)

Marie
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on January 28, 2009, 01:21:34 PM
 Marie (1855-1934), the wife of Alexander Thurn Taxis and friend of Rilke.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 28, 2009, 01:31:32 PM
Was she the Marie in the book about the education of her son ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 01, 2009, 08:59:06 AM
The child is Eleonore, daughter of Erich. I think the old woman is her grand mother Almerie countess of Belcredi, but I´m not sure.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/rwufd5.jpg)


Alexander

(http://i41.tinypic.com/261m7g4.jpg)

Hunting (The poor animals, that can´t be a hobby!)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2gxfakj.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/11tn1oy.jpg)

With his family in 1925, could anyone identify this three people?

(http://i42.tinypic.com/igmamu.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 02, 2009, 01:54:29 PM

With his family in 1925, could anyone identify this three people?

(http://i42.tinypic.com/igmamu.jpg)

The woman on the left side - could it be Paulina Thurn und Taxis, née Metternich?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 04, 2009, 02:23:24 AM
I have seen this picture
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/eugen2.jpg)

with captions as:
1 - Eugen Thurn und Taxis
2 - Erich Thurn und Taxis
3 - Alexander Thurn und Taxis
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 04, 2009, 11:48:25 AM
Maria Theresia (* 6. Juli 1794; † 18. August 1874), daughter of Karl Alexander of Thurn und Taxis, and sister of Maximilian Karl
married Paul III. Anton Fürst Esterhazy von Galantha.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/3449ueo.jpg) (http://i44.tinypic.com/3097yit.jpg)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/21wsix.jpg)

Their children Mária Terézia, Miklós Pál and Terezia Róza

(http://i44.tinypic.com/300ti0k.jpg) (http://i42.tinypic.com/2cynlw8.jpg) (http://i40.tinypic.com/30mbtzq.jpg)

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 04, 2009, 01:39:54 PM
Mimi Dörnberg

(http://i44.tinypic.com/16ljpc7.jpg)

http://www.stadtmaus.de/index.php?id=25

There is a guided tour about Maximilian Karl and Wilhelmine "Mimi"
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2009, 03:45:11 PM
It is not in Regensburg ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 08, 2009, 12:58:19 PM
It is not in Regensburg ?

It´s in Regensburg. Schloß Thurn Taxis is St. Emmeram
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 08, 2009, 04:05:39 PM
I visited the Schloss...It is located in the centre of the town.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 09, 2009, 02:16:06 PM
Maxmilian and his wife Wilhelmine lived together only for seven years. She gave him five children and died in 1835. Is it known, why she died so young? And are there any pictures of Maxmilians second wife Mathilda, née Oettingen? He married her four years after death of his first wife. They lived together till the death of Maxmilian, more then 30 years...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 09, 2009, 02:32:46 PM
I think she might have had a weak constitution to begin with. Five children in seven years maybe excessive for some women.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 16, 2009, 03:17:50 PM
Picture of Mathilde, née Oettingen, second wife of Prince Maxmilian Thurn und Taxis
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_16207.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 17, 2009, 01:16:20 PM



(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/b37967da.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 02:00:47 PM
Nice images of Mathilde, I would love to know more about her life. Any recomendation on books ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 18, 2009, 12:41:54 PM
She was like Helene religious, helpful and opened hospitals and donations for the poor people of Regensburg etc.
Her daughter Marie was  till Mathildes death her permanent companion. Mathilde had 11 children :   
   1. Otto (1840–1878)
   2. Georg (1841–1874)
   3. Paul (1843–1879)
   4. Amalie (1844–1867)
   5. Hugo (1845–1873)
   6. Gustav (1848–1914)
   7. Adolf (1850–1890)
   8. Franz (1853–1897)
   9. Nikolaus (1853–1874)
  10. Alfred (1856–1886)
  11. Marie Georgine (1857–1909)

It would be very interesting what she thought about Paul and Ludwig II.
So many children of her died so young.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 11:14:57 AM
I think she thought they must be just good friends.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 19, 2009, 01:41:01 PM
And what could she think about morganatic marriages of her three eldest sons?
Otto married in 1867 Maria de Fontelive-Vergne,
Paul married in 1868 Elise Kreutzer and
Georg in 1870 Anna Frühwirth !! :)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
I think as younger sons, they did not have the rich inheitance of their brother. It affects their marketability in the marriage sweeps.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 19, 2009, 02:44:27 PM
True, but other three brothers (Gustav, Adolf and Franz) even younger, they married equally...Remember, we are in the middle of 19th century, when married "not-noble-enough" woman was always scandal in noble family...:)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 02:49:24 PM
Maybe too many sons to marry off. Perhaps Mathilde was too passive and not aggressive enough to find matches for her children.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 19, 2009, 03:27:52 PM
Or she gave them freedom and that was the result :)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 03:49:11 PM
I think she was too liberal and lazy. I think Louise of Hesse-Cassel and Queen Victoria were more interested in arranging marriages.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 20, 2009, 05:40:43 AM
Are there any more pictures and informations about these brothers, their wives and families? (of course except Paul, he was discussed here several times) Did they live in Regensburg too, like their eldest brother?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 24, 2009, 09:19:27 AM
Princess Therese
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/3d56c586.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/3d14cff8.jpg)

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 24, 2009, 09:26:12 AM
(http://i44.tinypic.com/ivk9c0.jpg)

Franz Joseph
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 24, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
Princess Therese
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/3d56c586.jpg)


She looks very ugly here...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on February 24, 2009, 03:59:30 PM
Is this also a portrait of Therese or of one of her sisters?
(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/mecklenburg/mecklenburgstrelitz1/1773%20Theresia.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2009, 06:14:30 PM
It looks to me like Friederike...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on February 26, 2009, 10:07:44 AM
Is this also a portrait of Therese or of one of her sisters?
(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/mecklenburg/mecklenburgstrelitz1/1773%20Theresia.jpg)

It is Therese.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rebecca on March 15, 2009, 10:24:14 AM
I have a question regarding the house laws of the Thurn und Taxis-family. I hope somebody can clarify this...

According to the GHdA (Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels) these three marriages were morganatic: prince Alexander's (1906-1992) to countess Marie Valerie von Mazzuchelli, prince Hugo's (1916-1975) to countess Beatrice von Bethusy-Huc, and prince Max Emanuel's (1935-) to countess Anna Maria von Pocci.

But earlier, the marriage between Fürst Maximilian Karl (1802-1871) and baroness Wilhelmine von Dörnberg was apparently considered equal. As were the marriage of prince Theodor (1834-1876) to baroness Melanie von Seckendorff. The marriage between prince Egon (1832-1892) and Viktoria Edelspacher de Gyoryok also seems to have been considered as equal. Lots of other Thurn und Taxis princes married countesses, but these marriages were not considered morganatic. Why this inconsistency? Were the house laws sharpened at some time or did something else happen, which made marriages to baronesses equal but marriages to certain countesses not?

I know very little about the house laws of the Thurn und Taxis-family, if there are any - but apparently there are since the three mentioned marriages seem to be considered as morganatic. Like I said, maybe someone can clarify this? :-)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 21, 2009, 02:00:41 PM
I have a question regarding the house laws of the Thurn und Taxis-family. I hope somebody can clarify this...

According to the GHdA (Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels) these three marriages were morganatic: prince Alexander's (1906-1992) to countess Marie Valerie von Mazzuchelli, prince Hugo's (1916-1975) to countess Beatrice von Bethusy-Huc, and prince Max Emanuel's (1935-) to countess Anna Maria von Pocci.

But earlier, the marriage between Fürst Maximilian Karl (1802-1871) and baroness Wilhelmine von Dörnberg was apparently considered equal. As were the marriage of prince Theodor (1834-1876) to baroness Melanie von Seckendorff. The marriage between prince Egon (1832-1892) and Viktoria Edelspacher de Gyoryok also seems to have been considered as equal. Lots of other Thurn und Taxis princes married countesses, but these marriages were not considered morganatic. Why this inconsistency? Were the house laws sharpened at some time or did something else happen, which made marriages to baronesses equal but marriages to certain countesses not?

I know very little about the house laws of the Thurn und Taxis-family, if there are any - but apparently there are since the three mentioned marriages seem to be considered as morganatic. Like I said, maybe someone can clarify this? :-)
I would say that these princes were not so important. But Maximilian Karl was the next head of the house Thurn und Taxis. And his wife has to be a member of a princely house. Wilhelmine was just a baronesse. Maximilians mother Therese (sister of Queen Luisa of Prussia) was against this marriage. But he married Wilhelmine.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2009, 08:33:15 PM
While googling I found this portrait of Prince von Thurn und Taxis...It is made in Germany in 1946 by Kristian Krekovic...

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/krekma.jpg)

The portrait is donation to the Croatian museum and it could be connected with Castle Grobnik,owned until 1945 by Thurn und Taxis family...The castle was bought by Princess Viktoria von Thurn und Taxis in 1872 and that her heir was Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis until 1945...but Viktoria didn't have a son named Albert...her sons were Viktor and Maximilian...as her line died out in 1928 with Prince Viktor...The castle could pass to the other member of the family who could be the owner until 1945 until it was confiscated by the state of Yugoslavia...So,who could this be?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 23, 2009, 01:52:34 PM
While googling I found this portrait of Prince von Thurn und Taxis...It is made in Germany in 1946 by Kristian Krekovic...

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/krekma.jpg)

The portrait is donation to the Croatian museum and it could be connected with Castle Grobnik,owned until 1945 by Thurn und Taxis family...The castle was bought by Princess Viktoria von Thurn und Taxis in 1872 and that her heir was Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis until 1945...but Viktoria didn't have a son named Albert...her sons were Viktor and Maximilian...as her line died out in 1928 with Prince Viktor...The castle could pass to the other member of the family who could be the owner until 1945 until it was confiscated by the state of Yugoslavia...So,who could this be?

Could it be Prinz Raymond della Torre e Tasso?? I´m not sure.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2009, 06:32:02 PM
Don't think it is Raymund...it is said that this is the last owner of castle Grobnik before the confiscation...it is said that the last owner was Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis and that he inherited the castle from Princess Viktoria von Thurn und Taxis who bought it...yet she didn't have a son named Albert,so don't know which branch could inherit the castle after her death or after the death of her sons...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Svetabel on March 24, 2009, 01:50:15 AM
Could it be Prinz Raymond della Torre e Tasso?? I´m not sure.


He does look like Raymond.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 24, 2009, 03:11:07 PM
you have a photo of Raymond to compare ?

(http://i40.tinypic.com/212yequ.jpg)


(http://i39.tinypic.com/aol3lk.jpg)

A "little" bit small
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2009, 06:48:41 PM
Well,it really does look like him...it is painted in 1946
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 24, 2009, 08:35:35 PM
Which one in the group is him ?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 25, 2009, 02:06:00 PM
Which one in the group is him ?



(http://i41.tinypic.com/152hq36.jpg)

Number 74


You can also see his wife (later ex-wife) Eugenia, nr. 35
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 25, 2009, 02:09:54 PM
If you are interested in the other people:


1. Prinz Reiner von Hessen, 2. Prinz Otto von Hessen, 3. Prinzessin Irene von den Niederlanden, 4. Kronprinz Konstantin von Griechenland
                                           5. Prinzesin Anne von Frankreich, 6. Prinz Georg von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, 7. Herzogin Helen Toerring, 8. Prinzessin Tatiana Radziwill
                                           9. Herzog Hans Veit Toerring, 10. Prinzessin Irene von Griechenland, 11. Diane von Frankreich, 12. Prinz Kraft Hohenlohe-Langenburg
                                           13. Prinzessin Beatrix Hohenlohe-Langenburg, 14. Prinz Ludwig von Baden, 15. Prinzessin Sofia von Griechenland
                                           16. Erzherzogin Minola von Habsburg, 17. Prinzessin Elizabeth von Jugoslawien, 18. Prinz  Karl von Hessen,
                                           19. Maria-Mercedes, Herzogin von Barcelona
                                           20. Don Juan, Graf von Barcelona, 21. Großherzogin von Luxemburg, 22. Prinzessin Marie von Griechenland (geborene Bonaparte)
                                           23. ihr Ehemann, Prinz Georg von Griechenland, 24. Königin Juliana von den Niederlanden, 25. Herzogin von Paris
                                           26. Ex-König Michael von Rumänien, 27. Prinzessin Anne, seine Frau, 28. Prinz Gottfried von Hohenlohe-Langenburg
                                           29. Prinzessin Margaretha Hohenlohe-Langenburg, 30. Prinzessin Marie-Louise von Bulgarien, 31. Ex-König Simeon von Bulgarien
                                           32. Königin Frederika von Griechenland, 33. Prinzessin Viggo, Herzogin von Rosenborg, 34. König Paul von Griechenland
                                           35. Prinzessin Eugénie von Thurn und Taxis, 36. Prinzessin Hélène von Frankreich, 37. Prinr Bernhard von den Niederlanden
                                           38. Prinzessin Margaretha von Schweden, 39. Großherzogin Charlotte von Luxemburg, 40. Herzogin Thyra von Mecklenburg
                                           41. Herzog Ludwig von Württemberg, 42. Herzogin von Württemberg, 43. Prinzessin Beatrix von den Niederlanden
                                           44. Prinz Georg-Wilhelm von Hannover, 45.Herzogin Charles von Toerring-Jettenbach, 46. Prinz Jacques von Borbon-Parma
                                           47. Herzogin Flemming von Rosenborg, 48. Herzog Flemming von Rosenborg, 49. Prinz Francois von Frankreich
                                           50. Prinzessin Georg-Wilhelm von Hannover, 51. Prinz Antoine von Bourbon-Sizilien, 52. Prinzessin Maria del Pilar
                                           53. Prinzessin Maria Gabriella von Bayern, 54. Prinz Albrecht von Bayern, 55. Prinzessin René von Bourbon-Parma
                                           56. Prinz Moritz von Hessen, 57. Erb-Großherzog Jean von Luxemburg, 58. Herzogin Christian Ludwig von Mecklenburg
                                           59. Prinzessin Christian von Schaumburg-Lippe, 60. Herzog von Württemberg, 61. Prinz Christian von Schaumburg-Lippe
                                           62. Herzogin Elizabeth von Württemberg, 63. Prinzessin Maria Christiana von Savoyen-Aosta, 64. Prinzessin Margarita von Baden
                                           65. Prinzessin Dorothea von Hessen, 66. Prinz Heinrich von Hessen, 67. Prinz Axel von Dänemark, 68. Prinz Dimitri von Russland
                                           69. Prinzessin Peter von Schleswig-Holstein, 70. Prinz André von Bourbon-Parma, 71. Prinz Peter von Schleswig-Holstein
                                           72. Prinz Christian von Hannover, 73. Prinzessin  Isabella von Frankreich, 74. Prinz Raymund von Thurn und Taxis
                                           75. Prinz Franz von Bayern, 76. Prinzessin Elisabeth von Luxemburg, 77. Prinzessin Astrid von Norwegen
                                           78. Prinz Henri von Frankreich, 79. Prinz Michael von Griechenland, 80. Prinz Welf-Heinrich von Hannover
                                           81. Prinz Ernst-August von Hannover, 82. Prinz Friedrich Ferdinand von Schleswig-Holstein, 83. Herzog Christian Ludwig von Mecklenburg
                                           84. Prinzessin Ernst-August von Hannover, 85. Prinz Viggo, Herzog von Rosenborg

King Paul and Queen Frederika invited in 1954 members of th European Roaylty to the Ägais.
 
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on March 25, 2009, 05:21:36 PM
If the heir of the castle was Albert Thurn-Taxis (as head of family and son of elder brother of Viktorias´ husband), could be on the picture one of his younger sons - I mean Raphael or Philip?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2009, 06:37:03 PM
It is a bit confusing since they said that the castle was inherited by Viktoria's son and later that the owner prior to 1945 was Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis...That portrait was a gift of a Croatian family to their National Museum...and it was painted by a Croatian painter Kristian Krekovic in 1946 in Germany...so,I was a bit confused who could it be...there is also a mistake since they said that the portrait represents "Count von Thurn und Taxis" so I assumed that someone here doesn't know much about titles,families etc. and that's why I think that the portrait is a mystery...and posted it here,so if someone knows...please help!

P.S.And it really does look like Prince Raymund von Thurn und Taxis...his family had a castle Duino in Trieste which was on the border with than Yugoslavia,so easily Prince could have some connections with people from the "next door" country...although they mention Castle Grobnik and not Duino...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 27, 2009, 03:24:29 PM
The link still doesn't work. As the photo Rani tried to post is rare and such a nice snap shot, please go to this website http://visono02.diz.apa.net/sz/ (http://visono02.diz.apa.net/sz/) and type "Karl Theodor Bayern" into the search field on the left. Then a couple of photos should appear. The one Rani refered to is the first picture. Just click on it to enlarge it.

By the way: Yes, it's Max Emanuel standing on the right. I had no idea that he was so much taller than Carl Theodor.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on March 28, 2009, 03:29:38 PM
In St. Emmeram

Nénes parents

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/schlo5.jpg)


Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2009, 07:39:37 PM
I heard the family still have tons of Sisi photos and momentos from her family (all from Nene's collection I think).
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2009, 06:01:12 AM
Margarethe with her son:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/margthurnson.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on April 14, 2009, 06:07:07 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/BPzrPrwBWkKGrHgoH-CgEjlLl1-OzBJ1i1B.jpg) (http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/CDVPrinzvonThurnundTaxisca1880Photo.jpg)

I found them on ebay. The owner don´t know who they are. He just know that they are members of the Thurn and Taxis family, dated on 1880.
Can you imagine who they are?

He looks like a Thurn und Taxis. She could be his wife. He reminds me of somebody.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 06:19:40 AM
He reminds me a bit of Ludwig II in his older days...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on April 14, 2009, 06:21:10 AM
(http://i40.tinypic.com/20r8bd1.jpg)

Or him?? That´s a photo from the Bildarchiv Austria. His name is Albert. Hmmmm....

He looks a little bit like him

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: beladona on April 14, 2009, 01:33:25 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/BPzrPrwBWkKGrHgoH-CgEjlLl1-OzBJ1i1B.jpg) (http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/CDVPrinzvonThurnundTaxisca1880Photo.jpg)

I found them on ebay. The owner don´t know who they are. He just know that they are members of the Thurn and Taxis family, dated on 1880.
Can you imagine who they are?

He looks like a Thurn und Taxis. She could be his wife. He reminds me of somebody.

Nice pictures, but if they are members of Thurn und Taxis family...I´m not sure. But I would change the dating of picture to around 1870 - look at the hair-do of the woman and clothes...the man reminds me Napoleon III. :) he has same beard :)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on April 15, 2009, 12:36:28 PM
Are there any other portraits of other maybe less known Fürstinnen of Thurn und Taxis in that book?If there is please post-thanks!


This is the only picture from the book, that is not posted before:

Alexandrine von Rye, Gräfin von Varax (1589-1666), wife of Leonhard II., Count of Thurn und Taxis
They married in 1616. after his death in 1628, she was the guardian of her son Lamoral II. and administrated the business dealings.

Here the wedding carpet. I found the carpet of Leonhard by ebay.
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/leonhardII.jpg) (http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/alexandrine.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on April 30, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
It´s very, very tiny: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/royalty-pr-elisabeth-v-thurn-taxis-with-tiara

I would like to have this cdv. Pictures of the Braganza princess is so rare, like her sister too.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on May 01, 2009, 08:50:34 AM
Gloria with Margarethe



(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/b_124.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2009, 04:02:27 PM
What a picture ;-)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on June 17, 2009, 03:59:06 PM
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2u62uyp.gif)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on June 17, 2009, 04:03:00 PM
Pictures of his first family are hard to find:

Egon

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/G12605A.jpg

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: regensburg on June 20, 2009, 01:51:41 AM
Thankyou , Rani. Your efforts are appreciated.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Zukunftsseele on June 24, 2009, 09:29:00 AM
Does anyone have more pictures and info on Elisabeth of Thurn und Taxis (* 28. Mai 1860 in Dresden; † 7. Februar 1881 in Ödenburg), wife of Miguel II of Braganza, daughter of Helene in Bavaria and Maximilian Anton of Thurn und Taxis? There are just two pictures I know of that show her. Maybe someone also has more info on or pictures of her children:
* Miguel Maximiliano von Bragança, Herzog von Viseu (1878-1923)
* Francisco José von Bragança (1879-1919)
* Maria Theresa Carolina von Bragança (1881-1945)

Those are the pictures I know:

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/041elisabeththurnundtaxis.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/Elisabethtundt.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on June 25, 2009, 01:32:18 AM
There you can see pictures of Miguel and the children

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2815.0

Pictures of Elisabeth are so rare. I hope somebody will scan the photo of Elisabeth and Miguel from Malcolm Howes book "The Braganza Story". There is a photo from the same shooting.

Maria Teresa

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrsfujita/3292618446/

Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on June 25, 2009, 08:29:58 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/Pf34525C3.jpg) (http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/Pf34661C15.jpg)


Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Veronica on June 25, 2009, 06:02:38 PM
Wow Rani! Thanks, I love those pics! Louise looks prettier than Elisabeth IMO
The one of Elisabeth and Miguel is from the same session that the one posted above
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Zukunftsseele on June 26, 2009, 07:35:08 AM
Thank you so much for posting the links and the photos, Rani!  :) :) The pictures are beautiful. It is indeed a pity that pictures of Elisabeth are so rare. She was a beautiful woman.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 23, 2009, 08:36:38 AM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/B11353649T11353654.jpg)

I posted this pic of Elisabeth also in the "Elisabeth and Louisa T & T" Thread
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Agneschen on July 24, 2009, 09:59:53 AM
This pic belongs to the ÖNB (I bought a copy of it 2 months ago). Please give credit where it is due.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on August 02, 2009, 01:57:41 PM
Just was able to retrieve the death certificate of Paul from the online archives of Cannes (http://archives.ville-cannes.fr/vues_g/1E50/navimages-fr.svg.php?imageName=1e50_180 (http://archives.ville-cannes.fr/vues_g/1E50/navimages-fr.svg.php?imageName=1e50_180). He died on March 10, 1879 at 9 am at the age of 35 with the name "Paul de Fels "(Baron). married to Elise Kreutzer. Unfortunately, the cirumstances of his death ar not mentioned (or I can't decipher it...).
Obviously, he still lived in Regensburg according to the record, but the reason why and where he stayed in Cannes are not given.

I'd like to attach the jpeg file, but don't know how to do this.

I wonder if he was buried in Cannes.



Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on August 08, 2009, 05:25:58 PM
In the TV Series "Wagner" (with Richard Burton & Vanessa Redgrave, 1983), Prince Paul of Thurn and Taxis (played by Arthur Dernberg) has a obviously a part (see cast at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085107/fullcredits#cast).

Haven't seen the series yet, but ordered it from Amazon. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on August 22, 2009, 04:08:46 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/MariavonThurnundTaxis2.jpg)


Marie Thurn Taxis
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 24, 2009, 12:39:23 PM
That portrait reflects much about Marie's avante garde style. It is dated 1902; she is years ahead on hair style, dress design, pose. She looks like Barbara Stanwyck in the early 1930s.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: gogm on August 24, 2009, 04:47:30 PM
I agree completely! :)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Dru on September 09, 2009, 01:29:20 PM
Does anyone know how Prince Ludwig-Philipp of Thurn and Taxis died?  He was only in his early thirties, if I remember correctly...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on September 12, 2009, 05:02:49 PM
He died because he had a cardiac insufficiency.

His funeral in Niederaichbach
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/Niederaichbach.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Dru on September 12, 2009, 05:35:53 PM
He died because he had a cardiac insufficiency.

His funeral in Niederaichbach
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/Niederaichbach.jpg)

Thank you very much for your response; I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on September 18, 2009, 12:52:30 PM
Alexander Thurn und Taxis

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/alexander33.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on September 21, 2009, 10:36:16 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/salon.jpg)

You can see on the desk pictures of Helene, Max Anton, Margarethe...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2009, 08:56:48 PM
Yes. The salon is full of stuff from the family. Gloria Von Thurn & Taxis once said they had too much of that stuff...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 19, 2009, 05:58:06 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/459.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 20, 2009, 04:19:41 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/459.jpg)

Great picture, thanks for sharing! It's another version of the very well-known photo that can be found in "Das Familienalbum ..."

Where did you find it? Online or in a book?
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 20, 2009, 07:00:22 AM
It´s in Martin Dallmeiers book "Dieser glänzende deutsche Hof ... : 250 Jahre Thurn und Taxis in Regensburg".
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Rani on October 20, 2009, 07:15:00 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/IMAGE0012.jpg)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on November 01, 2009, 03:17:00 PM
Based on your contributions and information from other sources, I launched a Wikipedia entry on Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Thurn_und_Taxis). Looking forward to your contributions to further improve the page. Best wishes, Allan
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2009, 05:51:35 PM
It is interesting his letters to Ludwig still survive while it is hard to know more about him.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on November 03, 2009, 03:25:58 AM
The letters of Paul to Ludwig are all cited from Desmond Chapman-Huston’s book. He lived in Bavaria in the 1930s and became close to María del Pilar Princess of Bavaria (1891–1987), daughter of Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria. Through this connection to the Wittelsbach Family, he was able to get access to the Secret Archives before they were heavily destroyed during World War II.

Chapman-Huston went also to the Regensburg Archives of the Thurn und Taxis Family, but couldn’t find any trace of Paul there (see page 42 of his book).

Some references to Paul can be found in the letter exchanges between Ludwig and Cosima Wagner, with Ludwig once calling Paul’s wife ‘ugly’, although in other references she was cited as very beautiful.

I doubt that Heinrich is really Paul’s son since his birth date is June 30, 1867, but Edir Grein mentioned that both met in middle of November 1866 only. Heinrich was obviously left behind with his father when Elise eloped with a Prussian officer in 1878:

“Now among the mediatized princes, no member of the reigning house may marry without the consent of the Family Council. A good many years later, in the winter of 1877-8, we were at Freiburg. At the theatre the prima donna was a Frau von Fels. Her husband was actually a Prince Thurn u. Taxis. He had fallen in love with a Jewess who sang in the Opera, and only obtained leave of his family to marry her, on condition that he renounced his title and name, and agreed that his children, if any, should have no claims on the family estates. He agreed to these harsh terms and married her. After a while he fell into a decline, and went with her to Lugano, where he grew worse, and took to his bed. She formed a liaison with a Prussian officer, staying at the same hotel, and eloped with him, leaving her husband, who had given up so much for her, to die unbefriended, and her little son—motherless” Early Reminiscences, Baring-Gould http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Early_Reminiscences.djvu/80

Baring-Gould mentions her again in his “Further Reminiscences 1864 to 1894 “
…(Freiburg, 1877)….Acting in the theatre as a prima donna was a Frau von Fels. She was a handsome Jewess. Herr von Fels was actually a Prince of Thurn und Taxis, but forfeited his title so as to marry her. I have told the story in the fifth chapter of my Early Reminiscences .  She exacted from her husband that, whenever she acted, he should throw a bouqet on to the stage at her feet, and get his friends to do the same. “

Earlier, Paul tried to get rehabilitated by his family and visited his father together with his wife on August 3, 1869 (http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?apm=0&aid=nfp&datum=18690811&seite=14&zoom=2  newspaper clipping from Vienna), but obviously to no avail.

I found another newspaper clipping of 1874 (from New Zealand!), which states that Helene of Thurn und Taxis tried to connect Paul to Ludwig again for him to become the future Marshal of the Royal Palace and Master of the Revels of castle Herrenchiemsee, but obviously this didn’t push through (see http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BH18741204.2.4&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0-all for the whole article).

I was able to trace his grave site in Cannes, but unfortunately, the grave was abandoned in 1998 and then retaken by another family. I tried to investigate who paid for the grave and maintained it over the years, but wasn’t given an answer since I am not a family member.

There are many more traces of Paul still to be discovered.

I am deeply touched by the story of his live – he became a victim of Ludwig’s erratic and immature emotional condition, a victim of his family who deprived him of his name and title,  and - in the end - a victim of his wife who - despite of all the sacrifices he suffered for her - abandoned him in the final weeks of his life when he needed her most.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on November 03, 2009, 11:54:31 AM
You're most welcome. It would be great if you will write an article about him. Somehow he deserves that his live is wrested from oblivion. From all what I learnt about him, I think he was really a nice and good hearted guy, who really got the sh.. end of the stick.

I just received a manhunt datafile regarding the whereabouts of Paul v. T.u.T dated August 1867 of the Rhineland-Palatinate State Archives. Unfortunately, it is in old German penmenship ("kurrent") and I've a hard time to decipher it.

I believe another good source to learn more about Paul and his (later) relationship to Ludwig could be Helene of Thurn and Taxis. She became the inofficial head of the Thurn and Taxis family, after Paul's father died in 1871 (and Helene's husband in 1867). Obviously, she tried to reconnect Paul and Ludwig and it would be interesting to look into the correspondance between Helene and Ludwig.

Several biographers of Ludwig state that his sudden engagement with Sophie on 22 Januar 1867 was triggered by the marriages his friends Paul and Graf Holnstein. I believe so, too, but I rather see the possibility that he did it in a way to get even with Paul...

Anyway, looking forward hearing from you...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2009, 03:22:25 PM
Thanks Allan for the wonderful information, it is a big help to any researcher.

Alas, it is hard to get the letters of Nene, and I don't think they were published.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on November 04, 2009, 09:09:01 AM
It could be worthwhile looking at the Wittelsbach Archives in Munich as well as the Taxis Archives in Regensburg for letters exchanged between Nene and Ludwig, especially for the period 1873-1875. If Nene did not address Ludwig directly for the issue of making Paul Marshal of the Royal Palace, possibly she used her sister Sisi, who could easily get access to Ludwig? The New Zealand newspaper clipping mentions the diplomacy skills of Nene...
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2009, 03:14:38 PM
I have been to the Wittelsbach family archievs in Munich and found some nice photos for my next book on the sisters. However since I do not read German, they do not think I will be able to read the letters. Like I still have photostad copies of letters of Madi to her son-in-law until her death. They were written in longhand in German. Can you sent me info on the New Zealand clipping ? Thanks.
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: allan on November 06, 2009, 03:17:42 AM
It's a pity we did meet earlier. I am German, but working and living abroad and just spent several months back home in Bavaria (and just the opportunity to visit Cannes and Paul's former gravesite). Possibly, I will be able to assist you in reading some of the letters. I started to learn German longhand to decipher a manhunt file concerning Paul. After Ludwig dropped him, he obviously bolted the army in January 1867 and left for Switzerland together with Elise using the name 'Rudolphi'.

I am presently trying to find out what caused Ludwig to suddenly abandon Paul. My present source are the letters exchanged between Cosima Wagner and Ludwig. After Paul stayed in Tribschen in August 1866, he was still very close with Ludwig until middle of October. On September 1, Ludwig wrote to Cosima that he will make him Indendant of the Munich Court Theatre starting January 1, 1867 (pending the approval of R. Wagner, which he gave in his letter to Ludwig dated Oct. 8). Ludwig mentions a trip to the mountains in early September where his horse fell on Paul and hurt him seriously, but he stayed on his bedside for some time. In October, Ludwig is obviously in Paul's appartment at Tuerkenstrasse 82 for 14 days according to the memoirs of PRINCE CHLODWIG OF HOHENLOHE-SCHILLINGSFUERST http://www.archive.org/stream/memoirsauthorise01hoheuoft/memoirsauthorise01hoheuoft_djvu.txt .

On Oct. 20, however, Ludwig mentions to Cosima that Paul needs to be punished and that he will transfer him to the artillery.
What happened? Did he learn about the affair with Elise? Ludwig was known to be extremely jealous.

As regards the New Zealand newspaper, this is the link http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BH18741204.2.4&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0-all

If you can't access it, I can send it to you via email (allancortez[at]gmail.com)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Danjel on November 18, 2009, 08:10:01 PM
(http://i44.tinypic.com/3307c6o.jpg)



(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/alexander.jpg)

Alexander with his first wife Marie Princess of Ligne




I think this is not Alexander, the brother of Erich, but Alexander the son of Erich with his wife. You can see in the picture the first 2 names of the woman, Marie Valerie....
Alexander Ferdinand Hans Hugo Karl Egon Rudolf Lamoral Erich (Schloß Mzell 31 Aug 1906-Munich 16 Dec 1992); m.(morganatically) Prague 26 Oct 1935 Marie Valerie Gfn von Mazzuchelli (Vienna 15 Apr 1913-Vienna 20 Jul 2001)
Title: Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
Post by: Byron on December 16, 2009, 04:40:44 AM


Prince Paul Maximilian Lamoral von Thurn und Taxis b. 27 may 1843

cr Herr von Fels by the King of Bavaria 1879 d. Cannes 10 Mar 1879;

m. Astheim 7 Jun 1868 to Elise Kreutzer
 
1e) Heinrich von Fels (b. 30th June 1867-  ); m.NN


„Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis was disowned by his haughty family, and resigned from the Bavarian Army” Desmond Chapman-Houston. “Paul had kept a secret diary, about the alliance between him and Ludwig, where he wrote his inner most thoughts. After Ludwig turned his back on Paul, and his indiscretion, the von Thurn und Taxis family destroyed all evidence of Paul, including diary, photos etc” Christopher McIntosh.

The only memories left of Paul is his letters to his beloved Ludwig. Most of this correspondent is preserved in the archives of the Wittelsbachs family. Some time before his death Ludwig demanded all his letters to Paul returned from the von Thurn und Taxis family to him. Some are copied in the book written by Desmond Chapman-Houston.

 Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.   “Ludwig’s first and most intimate relationship had undoubtedly been with his aide-de-camp Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis. The to young men where lost in a rush of romantic enthusiasm. They spend every moment together, in the silent countryside, in the dark alpine forests, racing from one hunting lodge to the next to curl up alone together before roaring fires, in each others arms” Greg King.“Beloved Ludwig! Oh Ludwig, you could not have made me happier than by calling me to your side, you ask whether I thought of you-you know that you are my only thought…that your image is always before my eyes!” “I will always think of you in love. Farewell dear Ludwig, I embrace you and press you to my faithful heart” Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.“Their love affair started some time before 27th of October 1863, and had a very great impact on both, but for Paul, Ludwig would be his only love until the day he died” Christopher McIntosh.

“The second occasion Ludwig went out on his own was equally significant, he made his way to the door of his new friend and aide-de-camp. The apartment was situated in 82 Türken Strasse, and Paul had undoubtedly taken it to be near the Residenz” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

“Let me assure you that I shall always foster with the same sincerity the feelings of gratefulness and faithful love which I bear for you in my heart. Remember with love, your faithful Ludwig” Written by Ludwig II to Paul. Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.

“Ludwig had already decided that he must have Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis all to himself, it makes it plain that in their intimacy, as was inevitable, it was Ludwig who took the initiative” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

“But soon that confidence was to receive a jolt. Jealous tongues had started to wag, attempting to discredit the Ludwig’s companion, and evil and untrue rumours reached Ludwig’s ears that Paul lived a frivolous life. Having little malice in his own nature, Ludwig could never get used to it in others and at first he probably took the rumours about Paul at face value” Christopher McIntosh.

“But for all the protestations of undying love, the relationship was doomed. Ludwig’s feelings for his friend grew deeper and developed into great love, but the friendship was so precariously balanced that the slightest tremor of reality threatened to send it plummeting to oblivion. Paul again “faltered” making a wrong choice, saying the wrong word, displaying too much familiarity on one occasion and not enough affection on another. Trivial in themselves, such incidents preyed upon Ludwig’s mind until they became unbearable. Once and for all, he cut Paul out of his life. Apparently the final indiscretion was so trivial that even Paul himself was unaware of it. When he learned of his fall from grace, he sent some agonized letters to the King, but there was to be no respond from Ludwig” Greg King.

“Paul’s letter to Ludwig is undated, but must have been written somewhere about the middle of December 1866” “My own bellowed Ludwig! What in the name of all the Saints has your Friedrich done to you? What did he say that no hand, no good night, no Auf Wiedersehen favoured him? How I feel I cannot say, my trembling hand may show you my inner disquiet. I did not intend to hurt you. Forgive me; be good again with me, I fear the worst-I cannot stand this. May my notes climb to you reconcilingly. Amen! Forgive your unhappy Friedrich” Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis.       

(Friedrich a nickname Ludwig had given Paul) 

“For some time Paul had felt the demise of Ludwig’s affections towards him, from midst November 1866, he started to drink without limits and in a state of turmoil and distress ended up with the infamous actress Elise Kreutzer, with whom he spend a night at a local boarding house, he was well too drunk to remember, the next morning they parted but in the end of December 1866 she proclaimed him to be the father of her unborn child” Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.

“Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis were, by his family, forced to marry Elise witch was morganatically, and thereafter was disowned by them, and striped of all his titles, rank and birthrights. Paul kept writing to Ludwig but without any reply, in the end he begged his King to give him a title, and in 1879 Ludwig issues the Almanach de Gotha stated that Prince Paul had renounced his birthright, and his name, had been `inscribed upon the list of the nobility of Bavaria as Monsieur Fels” Desmond Chapman-Houston.

“After their final break up Paul would never see his beloved Ludwig again, and died a humble death in Cannes, remembering the only true love of his life” Edir Grein aka. Erwin Riedinger.