Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Italian Royal Families => Topic started by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2005, 11:21:52 AM

Title: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2005, 11:21:52 AM
Anybody want to tell us something about the Hapsburgs of the Tuscan branch ?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2005, 06:47:14 PM
Thanks !

One thing is really interesting ! It seems that more people accepted the secret marriage of Archduke Ferdinand IV of Tuscany's daughter Maria Antonia and Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria. There also seemed to be a child born out of this union. Anybody has an opinion ?

It would also be nice if anyone have photos of Maria Antonia, who did die young.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2005, 08:58:02 PM
There is a long rumour that Crown Prince Rudolf fell for his cousin Archduchess Maria Antonia, the only daughter of Grand Duke Ferdinand IV of Tuscany and his first wife, a princess from the Royal House of Saxony.

When her mother died, Maria Antonia was still quite small. Although her father remarried later they were still very close. However Maria Antonia inherited her mother's frail health. When Crown Prince Rudolf met his cousin, he fell deeply in love with this lovely, quiet and talented princess.

When he asked for permission to marry her, Emperor Franz Josef refused, one of the reason being that she she was ill and not likely to have a long life (most likely he thought back on his own sick wife, Rudolf's mother Sisi).

However things got sticky when Maria Antonia discovered that she was with child. So Rudolf married Maria Antonia in secret and the child was later given up to adoption. Maria Antonia never got over the shock, and decided to enter into holy orders. She died soon after Rudolf married.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2005, 09:09:04 PM
Well...So was Stephaine pf Belgium wheom she later married !

I guess the fact that they are night and day sort of explain the unigueness of the both women.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 27, 2005, 04:53:19 PM


Maria Antonia or "Antoinette" as she was called by her family, wasn't in good health since she was born. She suffered from a lung disease, maybe tuberculosis.
In 1860, when she was only two years old, she left Tuscany for Salzburg. There she lived with the rest of her family in the exile. When Antoinette was ten, her father married a second time. She came along very well with her step-mother Alix, Princess of Bourbon-Parma. I read in the autobiography of Antoinette's eldest half-sister Louise that she was a very intelligent woman and that she was admired by her little siblings. Antoinette had indeed a lot of interests. Above all she loved poetry and wrote nice little poems. Her teacher published them after her death. Antoinette became abbess of the so-called "Theresianisches Damenstift" in Prague. Because of her bad health she lived in the last years of her life in Cannes. There she died on 13 April 1883. She was laid to rest in Vienna. Her father Ferdinand IV. loved Antoinette a lot and was devastated after her death.

BTW: I don't believe in the rumour that Antonia was the secret wife of Rudolf and gave birth to a boy, who called himself Robert Pachmann, in 1883 ...



Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 27, 2005, 05:11:11 PM
"She died soon after Rudolf married."

Maria Antonia died on 13 April 1883. Rudolf married Stéphanie of Belgium on 10 May 1881.

If Antonia was Rudolf's wife, there must have been a divorce. Otherwise Rudolf was a bigamist.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2005, 09:48:10 PM
Thanks for the photos & pictures. They are very interesting.

Maria Antonia's mother was one of those sickly Saxon princesses that mostly died early (one of them married Archduke Franz Carl, father of Franz Ferdinand). It seems the sickness came with her mother. The archduchesses of the second marriage (including the famous Louise of Tuscany) were strong in health.

According to "Le Petite Gotha", the Hapsburg family recogonized the decendents of Robert Puchann as their cousins and decendents of Rudolf. Sorry no doubts here, the family has spoken !
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2005, 09:50:59 PM
Another thing. Maria Antonia entered into holy orders shortly after the child was born. I guess the divorce or annullment has to pass before a married woman can enter into the church. I believe that it was all taken care of before Rudolf and Stephanie got married.

Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 29, 2005, 02:13:21 AM
Anyway, in my opinion the marriage Rudolf - Maria Antonia is nonsense ...

Of course, the Pachmann's believe in this. I would also, because it looks good to be a descendent of Crown-Prince Rudolf.
The Imperial Family has never certified that.

BTW, Antonia became abbess on 17 September 1880 and definitly not "shortly after the child was born" (which means 1883).
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: umigon on October 29, 2005, 08:54:42 AM


I don't believe Rudolf and Antonia were married, don't think their personalities would have matched. By the way, if they had indeed been married, Francis Joseph would have celebrated a public marriage and that's it.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2005, 09:43:05 AM
Well...I think Rudolf would have ended up better with a gentle sickly wife than one (Stephine of Belgium) that jarred his nerves...One look at her autobiography "I Was To be Empress" is enough to turn off quite a number of people.

I don't think Franz Josef would have liked to have Maria Antonia as a daughter-in-law. She was too sickly and unimportant to be wife of an heir to the throne. Anyway one reason why Stephanie was accepted because she was the niece of Archduchess Elisabeth, Franz Joesf's former love, who still have his attention unlike poor Sisi.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 01, 2005, 10:47:04 PM
Eric...you so easily believe all these rumors...really...one can only but begin to imagine the magnitude of the scandal if this nonsense had ever happened.

I know the author of "Le Petit Gotha" quite well and consider her a very good friend.  That does not make me believe and accept every blessed rumour she repeats and she is guilty alas of repeating some and too easily believing others.  I remember for example a few years ago when she told me she had "inside" proof that a crown prince in Europe was gay and never going to marry...well surprise, surprise, surprise...this person is not only happily married, but has had zero trouble fathering a child...

Repeating these rumors as gospel does a disservice to the study of royalty, nothing else.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 01, 2005, 10:49:08 PM

Why unimportant?  What makes her less important than the younger daughter of the former reigning Duke of Parma, a lesser princess in the big scheme of things that Franz Joseph had absolutely no problem in allowing his great-nephew and heir to marry?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2005, 10:18:12 AM
Well...sometimes things just cannot be proved without reasonable doubt. I am of that opinion. For example people all believe that Anastasia and Alexei died with their parents. But without a coprse, that does round things nicely isn't it.

As for the gay thing, you told me yourself quite a few gay princes had no problems getting married and produce the goods. As one expect say, it doesn't take a genius to father a child...add to that modern technology. now even sex is not required !  
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2005, 10:24:33 AM
As for Franz Josef forbidding a marriage. It will not be a first time. Remember the ex-grocer's sad tale of Franz Josef who forbid him to marry Princess Elivia of Bourbon, daughter of Don Carlos.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 02, 2005, 05:13:47 PM
Dear Eric,

Please read carefully the email sent to you privately by a true authority on this family, David McIntosh, my assistant - who happens to know far more than I do on them and certainly even more than you.  

Read, think and memorize and spare us all the endless chatter about these neverending rumors that you consider gospel.

You too easily believe rumor and consider it truth...it detracts from what you actually know and turns your comments many times into parody.

Using the missing bodies of Nicholas II's children as a plausible excuse for your rant is not accurate by any stretch of the imagination.  First of alkl, the missing bodies are NOT Anastasia and Alexei, but MARIA and Alexei.  Anna Anderson was not a Romanov, Caspar Hauser was not the lost Prince of Baden, Naundorff was not the lost Louis XVII, etc, etc, etc...

Arturo Beeche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2005, 08:44:14 PM
Well yes Elviva...

The Russians believed that it is Alexei and Marie, but the Americans and other expects beliveve it was Anastasia. All the sources pointed to a difference of opinion between the two sides. The facts remain two bodies are not accounted for, so things are not cut and dry and final.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 03, 2005, 12:38:25 AM
Again, not all non-Russian experts believe one of the missing bodies to be that of Anastasia.  The fact of the matter is that the bodies were found and the victims of this terrible tragedy should be left to rest once and for all.  Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia Nicholaevna, plain and simple.  Still some, who have their own agenda, choose to continue in plots and mysteries, dark deeds and influences from highly placed individuals who "hampered" and "tainted" the DNA investigation....booo...oooohhh...the ghosts of Darmstadt brought to life surely.

As for Elvira not being allowed to marry Archduke Leopold Ferdinand Salvator...did you realize that her own sister was allowed to marry Archduke Leopold Salvator of Austria-Tuscany, a first cousin of the above mentioned Leopold Ferdinand Salvator?  Whe then would Franz Joseph have it out for one sister and not the other?  If he forbid this marriage, and I would love to find the source of this statement, could it have been due to the Archduke's own character faults and not the poor exiled Infanta?  Care to illustrate?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2005, 09:26:23 PM
Lets stick to facts. Two missing bodies. A veriation of what happened. Definitely an incomplete file.

As for possible reasons why Franz Josef forbid the marriage, that is unimprtant. The fact was he did and according to Archduke Leopold, without a good reason. I am sure there is two sides, but we don't know the Emperor's. Also Franz Josef wasn't too pleased about his daughter Valerie's choice of a husband too, but again Sisi interverned and made sure that her daughter's happiness was secured.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 04, 2005, 12:46:07 AM
And you extend credibility to Archduke Leopold?  You seriously do?  I find that truly amazing.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 04, 2005, 12:50:56 PM
I think we should move on to Antonia's more famous half-sister, Luisa of Tuscany.

I found it strange nobody knew what happened in her last years...Now there is a mystery worth solving.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 05, 2005, 02:13:42 AM

And you are asking for a "fair trial" for Archduke Leopold...do you mean to tell to all of us who know far more about him than most, that we have nt given this idiot a "fair" trial? Ths would be like saying that Marie Wallersee, Louisa of Tuscany, Louise of Belgium and Catherine Radziwill wrote fair and balanced books, which of course they did not.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 03:19:33 AM
No...Luisa's last days were not well known. Even some of her children lost contact with her.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 03:26:13 AM
Well...That does not mean what ALL these people wrote were completely lies. Slanted truth yes...written from their own point of will...yes...but untrue in every aspect ? I will not so that far. For example if somebody wrote a bio of you in 20 years time, you think they are all going to be the same ? Not really. I like Catherine Radziwill's books as they were mostly gossips and what the people believed and want to hear at that time, which is why they sold well. It refects the times they were written.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on November 05, 2005, 10:18:26 AM
Gossip books are for entertainment, not for obtaining truths about these subjects.  The problem I see here, and I say this to you in a heartfelt manner, is that when you use these books as gospel truth and go about spreading half-truths, people will read these arguments and continue to spred some of the nonsense found in these gossipy books.

As for anyone writing a bio of me, nice thought, but I don't think it would eber happen.  I am just an average guy who happens to possess and above average knowledge and interest in royal matters.  Hardly worth a bio, really.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 10:57:01 AM
I think you are quite right. One should not use them as gospel, buy I do wonder if there may be gains of truth somewhere. For example, for a long time Marie Wallersee's account of her Aunt Mathilde having a love child was deemed false. But not long ago Ricardo Mateos wrote a article about this and revealed that Mathilde did indeed had a love child with a Spanish grandee. In fact the title he used was "a vindication for Countess Larisch". I wouldn't say that it proves everything all those authors wrote are thus correct, but I think one should keep an open mind to them.

And yes I do enjoy reading these gossipy books and try to see if I can seperate truth from fiction...
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Marc on November 16, 2005, 08:29:32 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/MAntTusc.jpg)
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2005, 10:42:37 AM
The style look like around 1789, but I think the painting was done later than that...
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Marc on November 17, 2005, 10:56:33 AM
The portrait is from 1879,done by Johann Schwager!
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2005, 11:11:06 AM
Powdered wigs is out of fashion by then, a costume ball ?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2005, 09:46:53 AM
But Sisi does not powdered her hair nor put a plume on her head...the stars are a bit small for those to resemble of 19th century. No I belived it was a costume ball.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2005, 07:24:28 PM
There was a book on this branch of the family that came out awhile ago--The Unknown Habsburgs maybe? I'm sure Art knows. It looks like a photo book.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: frohsdorf on January 13, 2006, 07:52:06 PM
Well, I really enjoyed the volleying back and forth between and Eric and Art!  

I'd like to know more about the later years of Alice, Grand Duchess of Tuscany, who died in 1935.  I know that after the fall of the empire, she "retired" to Villa Friedegg in Schwertberg with three of her unmarried daughters.  What became of her incredible collection of jewelry?  Some of it was inherited through the Bourbon line and once belonged to Marie Antoinette.  Even David McIntosh was unable to answer that question, when I wrote to him years ago.

And, yes, I, too, am interested in the latter years of Luise of Tuscany, "Comtesse de Montignoso".  I believe she died in near poverty in Brussels in 1947 and now rests in the crypt of Schloss Sigmaringen, but what happened after her marriage to Toselli failed?  That's a 30-year period unaccounted for.




Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: synnadene on June 23, 2006, 04:14:45 AM

I'm looking for pictures about Alice (Alix) (1849-1935), daughter of Karl III. von Parma and Louise von Parma, second wife of the former GD Ferdinand IV. of Tuscany.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: britt.25 on June 23, 2006, 05:45:13 AM
For the moment I only have this picture, but I am also looking forward for more and maybe the second one in bigger.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/184920Alicia.jpg)

Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Daniela on July 06, 2006, 02:25:04 AM
I was wondering, this group photos are beautiful, but where is Maria Antonia, eldest daughter from Ferdinand's first marriage? Didn't she get along with her father's second family?

Is this the castle where Alix and her three youngest daughters lived after Ferdinand died?

(http://root.riskommunal.net/gemeinde/schwertberg/gemeindeamt/fotos/217339299.JPG)

I've found this photo on this link: http://www.schwertberg.at/

Daniela
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eurohistory on July 08, 2006, 09:00:45 AM
I believe that by then Maria Antonia had died.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2006, 02:51:57 AM
According to her half-sister Luisa of Tuscany, Antonia did have a good relationship with her half siblings. She left Luisa her own wedding dress ,which she inherited from her mother (a princess of Saxony), so it was approciate. 
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: frohsdorf on August 17, 2006, 09:05:20 PM
Alice of Bourbon-Parma, Grand Duchess of Tuscany, died at Villa Friedegg in the village of Schwertberg, Austria, in 1935.  She is buried in the village cemetery along with her three unmarried daughters.  The photo on this site does not show Villa Friedegg.  The villa is much smaller---really a large country house, not a chateau or schloss.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: beladona on March 20, 2008, 03:35:14 AM
1. Maria Ferdinanda of Saxony (b. Dresden 27 Apr 1796, d. 3 Jan 1865), m. Florence 6 May 1821 FERDINANDO III. who was restored to the Grand Duchy of Tuscany in May 1814. (b. Florence 6 May 1769, d. Florence 18 Jun 1824).

(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wettin/saxonyalbert3/1796%20M.Ferdinande.jpg)

Her husband was nearly 30 years older than she and has three children, son and heir Leopold and two daughters. Nineteen years after death of his first wife, Luisa Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b. 27 Jul 1773, d. 19 Sep 1802), he married elder sister of his daughter in law.
Maria was Queen of Tuscany for three years, till the death of her husband. After the wedding she became mother in law of her younger sister Anna – funny situation, but not unusual (Another example, Empress Carolina Augusta and Archduchess Sofia, mother of Emperor Franz Joseph).
Maria died in 1865 in Bohemia, on castle Brandeis, property of the family Habsburg-Tuscany. Had she any contact with the family of her husband after his death? Any better pictures of her?

2. Maria Anna of Saxony (b. Dresden 15 Nov 1799, d. Pisa 24 Mar 1832); m. by proxy at Dresden 28 Oct 1817 and in person at Florence 16 Nov 1817 LEOPOLDO II (b. Florence 3 Oct 1797, d.Rome 29 Jan 1870).

(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wettin/saxonyalbert3/1799%20Maria%20Anna.jpg)

She was mother of three daughters:
Maria Carolina (b. Florence 19 Nov 1822, d.Florence 5 Oct 1841)
Augusta Ferdinanda (b. Florence 1 Apr 1825, d.Munich 26 Apr 1864); m.Florence 15 Apr 1844 Luitpold Pr of Bavaria (1821-1912)
Maria Maximiliana (b. Florence 9 Jan 1827, d. Florence 18 May 1834)
It is said, that when she was dying, she asked her husband to marry again (because they do not have a son). She recommand him to choose a new wife from house Bourbon-Two Sicilies, because of good fertility of their daughters. Leopold II. tooke this advice and choose Antoinetta (b. Palermo 19 Dec 1814, d. Orth 7 Nov 1898), who bore him ten children.

3. Eldest son of Leopold and Antoinetta was Ferdinand (b. Florence 10 Jul 1835, d. Salzburg 17 Jan 1908); who married  in Dresden (24 Nov 1856), niece of Maria and Anna of Saxony, Anna Maria of Saxony (b. Dresden 4 Jan 1836, d. Naples 10 Feb 1859).

(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wettin/saxonyalbert4/1836%20Anna%20Maria.jpg)

She gave him only one daughter, Maria Antonia (b. Florence 10 Jan 1858, d.Cannes 13 Apr 1883), and died three years after the wedding. Ferdinand, who deeply loved his wife and daughter, married secondly after nine years Alicia of Bourbon-Parma (b. Parma 27 Dec 1849, d.Schwertberg 16 Jan 1935) and had ten children.

What more is known about these women? They (except Maria) have to be fragile, because they died too young…
And of course…pictures of them and their daugters are welcome!

Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Mari on March 20, 2008, 05:44:16 AM
I really like the last image! Very pretty face....So sad the early deaths!
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: trentk80 on March 20, 2008, 06:03:21 AM
1. Maria Ferdinanda of Saxony (b. Dresden 27 Apr 1796, d. 3 Jan 1865), m. Florence 6 May 1821 FERDINANDO III. who was restored to the Grand Duchy of Tuscany in May 1814. (b. Florence 6 May 1769, d. Florence 18 Jun 1824).

Her husband was nearly 30 years older than she and has three children, son and heir Leopold and two daughters. Nineteen years after death of his first wife, Luisa Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b. 27 Jul 1773, d. 19 Sep 1802), he married elder sister of his daughter in law.
Maria was Queen of Tuscany for three years, till the death of her husband. After the wedding she became mother in law of her younger sister Anna – funny situation, but not unusual (Another example, Empress Carolina Augusta and Archduchess Sofia, mother of Emperor Franz Joseph).
Maria died in 1865 in Bohemia, on castle Brandeis, property of the family Habsburg-Tuscany. Had she any contact with the family of her husband after his death? Any better pictures of her?

I know that Maria Ferdinanda was very close to her stepson Grand Duke Leopold II of Tuscany and he frequently turned to her for advice, both personal and political. It was Maria Ferdinanda who helped to arrange a marriage between Leopold's son Ferdinand and Anna Maria of Saxony, who belonged to her family.

2. Maria Anna of Saxony (b. Dresden 15 Nov 1799, d. Pisa 24 Mar 1832); m. by proxy at Dresden 28 Oct 1817 and in person at Florence 16 Nov 1817 LEOPOLDO II (b. Florence 3 Oct 1797, d.Rome 29 Jan 1870).

She was mother of three daughters:
Maria Carolina (b. Florence 19 Nov 1822, d.Florence 5 Oct 1841)
Augusta Ferdinanda (b. Florence 1 Apr 1825, d.Munich 26 Apr 1864); m.Florence 15 Apr 1844 Luitpold Pr of Bavaria (1821-1912)
Maria Maximiliana (b. Florence 9 Jan 1827, d. Florence 18 May 1834)
It is said, that when she was dying, she asked her husband to marry again (because they do not have a son). She recommand him to choose a new wife from house Bourbon-Two Sicilies, because of good fertility of their daughters. Leopold II. tooke this advice and choose Antoinetta (b. Palermo 19 Dec 1814, d. Orth 7 Nov 1898), who bore him ten children.

Maria Anna of Saxony was very interested in painting and poetry, just like her youngest sister Maria Josepha. Her husband was very much in love with her and, after her death, he always remembered her with fondness.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Marc on March 20, 2008, 08:36:23 AM
Any portraits in colour?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: britt.25 on March 21, 2008, 12:48:19 PM
The painting of Maria Anna of Savoy is one of the most beautiful...in my view. I have never the seen the huge one, where her face is so clear to see. She is the daughter of a Habsburg, too, from the line of Modena. Wonderful portrait. Where did you find that?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Norbert on March 21, 2008, 02:43:05 PM
Where did they marry in Florence?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Norbert on March 21, 2008, 02:58:38 PM
Gd Dss Anne + Leopoldo II's  daughter Marie Antoinette was Abbess of the theresian Convent in Prague and was a candidate to marry the crown prince Rudolf in 1880.......within 3 years she had a a natural son " Robert Pachmann". was she off the rails ?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: britt.25 on March 22, 2008, 02:39:35 AM
I think there is an own topic on the Pachmann affair, and it seems that it is only a legend. But I cannot say it for sure.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 22, 2008, 04:14:57 AM
Where did they marry in Florence?

Maria Anna and Ferdinand? They married in Vienna on 27 February 1831.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Norbert on March 23, 2008, 07:31:45 AM
Many thanks , I wonder where in Vienna? The Habsburg had 3 chapels around the Hofburg and sometimes it was a drawingroom or bedroom in the palace. I actually mean't where did the Gd Dukes marry in Florence...publicly in a state celebration in the city or a family affair in the Pitti Palace?
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 28, 2008, 02:51:10 PM
Many thanks , I wonder where in Vienna? The Habsburg had 3 chapels around the Hofburg and sometimes it was a drawingroom or bedroom in the palace. I actually mean't where did the Gd Dukes marry in Florence...publicly in a state celebration in the city or a family affair in the Pitti Palace?

I will look it up when I'm back home.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Mari on March 29, 2008, 02:44:05 AM
I cannot get the link to work on the discussion of the Pachmann affair! A notice says it is no longer there. :'(
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 06, 2008, 09:18:38 AM
Many thanks , I wonder where in Vienna? The Habsburg had 3 chapels around the Hofburg and sometimes it was a drawingroom or bedroom in the palace. I actually mean't where did the Gd Dukes marry in Florence...publicly in a state celebration in the city or a family affair in the Pitti Palace?

According to Alois Jahn's "Das Haus Habsburg" Ferdinand and Maria Anna married in the Hofburg (Leopoldinischer Trakt, Kammer-Kapelle St. Joseph).

Then I had a look at the places where the Granddukes married:

Ferdinand III. and his first wife Maria Luisa of Naples: Augustinerkirche, Wien (19.09.1790)
Ferdinand III. and his second wife Maria Anna of Saxony: Florence (06.05.1821)

Leopold II. and his first wife Maria Anna of Saxony: Florence (16.11.1817)
Leopold II. and his second wife Maria Antonia of Naples: Naples (07.06.1833)

Ferdinand IV. and his first wife Anna Maria of Saxony: Dresden (24.11.1856)
Ferdinand IV. and his second wife Alix of Bourbon-Parma: Schloss Frohsdorf, Wiener Neustadt (11.01.1868)
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Yseult on July 09, 2008, 04:44:50 PM
I´m also interested in knowing more about Alice. As far as I know, she received a strict upbringing; her daughter Luisa stated in her Memories that Alice loved to wear beautiful jewels, including a necklace that had been used by queen Marie Antoinette, but it seems that Alice was, also, an almost fanatical catholic...I suppose she suffered a lot when her daughter Luisa eloped from Dresde, leaving husband and children, with the belgian teacher of the children...
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Norbert on July 10, 2008, 11:24:53 AM
it ruined the family and lost her other daughters any hope of marriage.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Yseult on July 10, 2008, 02:41:25 PM
Truly?? Were the other daughters socially "punished" because the huge scandal created by Luisa??
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 11, 2008, 01:16:44 PM
I think one other daughter other than Luisa made a good marriage. To be fair, the remaining daughters were not so beautiful asto attract suitors in that sense.  :(
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Norbert on July 19, 2008, 06:03:30 PM
duh? the Prince of Hohenlohe, hardly!
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Marc on July 19, 2008, 07:07:39 PM
Well,considering that they were in exile,that the scandal prevented the other daughters getting married,that the Prince von Hohenlohe-Bartenstein was rich and equal in technical terms she did make a catch...and just maybe it could be a love-match,but I don't know!
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Svetabel on July 21, 2008, 01:56:04 AM
Well,considering that they were in exile,that the scandal prevented the other daughters getting married,that the Prince von Hohenlohe-Bartenstein was rich and equal in technical terms she did make a catch...and just maybe it could be a love-match,but I don't know!

Archduchess Anna married in 1901, before the Luise scandal. All other sisters remained unmarried mostly becouse of Luise's reputation.

Recently I've read a book by Princess Radziwill and she states GD Alice was a very narrow-minded person who lived like a machine praying all day long and bearing  children...Of course many revelations of the famous authoress must be viewed critically though I guess in describing Alice and her family she is not far from true.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: Marc on July 21, 2008, 07:41:34 AM
Was it a love match?I mean between Archduchess Anna and Prince Johannes Friedrich von Hohenlohe-Bartenstein?Don't know much about them...
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 13, 2010, 02:58:03 PM
Maria Antonia Anna of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, was born in Palermo on 19 December 1814, daughter of Francis I, King of the Two Sicilies and Maria Isabella of Spain. Her paternal grandparents were Ferdinand IV of Naples and Maria Carolina of Austria, while her maternal grandparentes were Charles IV of Spain and Maria Luisa of Parma. She was baptised in honor of Marie-Antoinette and in fact she was always called Maria Antonietta and no Maria Antonia. Her brother Ferdinand nicknamed her Totò.
Her father died when she was eleven and Antonietta suffered a lot. Her mother was not a bad person, but had a scandalous life. So Antonietta had a strong relationship with her brother, the new king Ferdinand II. She was in very good relantionship with her sister-in-law, the virtuous Maria Cristina of Savoy.
When she was 18, she was sought in marriage by Ferdinand of Orléans, son of Louis Philippe, and by Leopold II, Grand Duke of Tuscany. Ferdinand allowed her to choose and Antonietta chose Leopold.
Leopold II was her cousin, son of Ferdinand III of Tuscany and of Maria Luisa of Naples. He was 37 and widower, but he was famous as the "best prince of Europe".
Antonietta was hailed by Florence people for her beauty and because she was Italian. Initially she had some difficult to understand life-style of her new people; accustomed to the ragged people of Naples she could not understand why she should give to charity to poor people well-dressed of Florence (once she sayed with her strong Neapolitan accent "In Firenze non ce stanno poveri!"/"In Florence, there aren't poors!"). Leopold, who loved her very much, helped his wife and rounded her of very good Florentine noblewomen, particularly Countess Adele Palagi, who was her lady of honor until the end. So Antonietta, who wasn't very cultured, began to love Florence as her new home. She loved very much arts and music, she was very tasteful and she was a big patron of artists. Her and her husband were very simple people and were very loved. People didn't call them "Yours Highnesses" but "Sor Granduca" and "Sora Granduchessa" (it's a very informal use, in English I think is "Mr. Grand Duke" and "Mrs. Grand Duchess"). They came in to the folk festivals and the Granduchess, who loved dancing, danced with the populace.
Leopold had only three daughters from his previous marriage and Antonietta gave him 10 children: 5 boys and 5 girls. They loved very much all their 13 children and suffered a lot when someone died (Antonietta remained with her children until the end, but often fainted from sorrow).

(continue)
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 13, 2010, 02:59:16 PM
In 1848, in Northern Italy, broke out in Milan a Revolution to expel the Austrians. Leopold and his brother-in-law, Carlo Alberto of Savoy, helped the revolutionaries and sent their armies. In Florence, the Lorrain flag was changed with the Italian flag and people was very excited: Antonietta sewed clothes for the soldiers. But, when it was evident that Carlo Alberto only wanted to conquer Milan to enlarge his domains, Leopold withdrew troops. But the Florentine Aristocracy, linked to the nobility of Savoy, was unsatisfied, while the democrats wanted Italian unification. In this caos, Leopold, who was a pacifist, didn't want to continue the war. While the hostile democrats proclamed the Republic, Leopold and Antonietta went to Gaeta, receveid by Ferdinand II and the Pope. Antonietta, who feared for the throne of his son, became very reactionary, influenced by her brother. So she advised Leopold to get help from Austrians. The Austrian troops defeted the revolutionaries and Leopold could return to his throne.

The life returned to normal in Florence, Leopold was yet loved and he continued to reclaim marshes and govern well. While Antonietta, the sister of the "Tyrant of Naples", became unloved in the aristocratic and bourgeois circles.

Ten years later war broke out between Piedmont and Austria. Leopold's two nephews, Vittorio Emanuele and Franz Joseph, asked help to their uncle, but the old Grand Duke didn't want bloodshed. Florentine aristocracy was in contact with Savoy aristocracy; so they organized a "revolution". On 27 April 1859, at 9 o' clock am, in Piazza Maria Antonia (Maria Antonia's Square), was waving the tricolor and began a peaceful march towards Pitti Palace. Aristocrats pretended the entry into the war and the abdication of Leopold, but he didn't want it. But he didn't want to use force, because he loved too his people and his city. Moved by honor, he couldn't abdicate, so unwillingly decided to leave Florence. Leopold, Antonietta and all their family, at 6 pm, left the city by chariot, getting out through Boboli door, heading toward Bologna. The people greeted with affection "Goodbye daddy Leopold! Be careful!". Leopold and Antonietta was crying. They went in Austria, but some years later they return in Italy, in Rome. Leopold died in Rome in 1870 shortly before the city was occupied. Antonietta and their children returned to Austria. Her youngest and beloved son Johann became very friend with the Crownprince Rudolf, his cousin. After Mayerling, Johann renounced to his title and departed on a boat; disappeared at sea. Antonietta refused to believe that her son was dead and she continued to seek him (some criminals managed to steal money from her with false informations). Annually Antonietta returned to Rome to pray at the grave of her husband; once she stopped in Florence and people warmly welcomed her. Antonietta died on 7 November 1898 at Schloss Orth, Gmunden, Austria. In Florence there was a solemn Mass in her memory with the greatest participation.

PS: please, forgive my grammatical errors.
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 13, 2010, 03:00:13 PM
Francis I's family. Antonietta is the young girl on the left, in white, with a nosegay.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Famiglia_di_Francesco_I.jpg)

Leopold II
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Leopold_Second_of_Tuscany.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Leopold_II_of_Tuscany.jpg)

Maria Antonietta by Giuseppe Bezzuoli (chief of Academy of Fine Arts)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Bezzuoli_1847.jpg/488px-Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Bezzuoli_1847.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Maria_Antonia_Bezzuoli.jpg/440px-Maria_Antonia_Bezzuoli.jpg)

Other images
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Morelli_1840.jpg/434px-Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Morelli_1840.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Giovannozzi.jpg/449px-Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_by_Giovannozzi.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2vnidfd.jpg)

Photos when she was old.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_c._1870.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_c._1870_detail.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_1880_c..jpg/438px-Maria_Antonia_of_the_Two_Sicilies_1880_c..jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Maria_Antonia_of_Bourbon_Two_Sicilies_c_1887.jpg/414px-Maria_Antonia_of_Bourbon_Two_Sicilies_c_1887.jpg)

She looks so sad :(

Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 13, 2010, 03:46:12 PM
Leopold when was old (He resembles Franz Joseph)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5180/leopoldoesiliozf6.jpg)

Antonietta's son Ferdinand
(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4301/ferdinando1oj2.jpg)

Antonietta with her son Ferdinand and her daughters Isabella  and Luisa.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/6fwd5k.jpg)

Detail of the previous bust. The autor is Ottaviano Giovannozzi.
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5290/mariaantoniettadelledue.jpg)
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 13, 2010, 04:15:54 PM
Thanks for nice pictures!
Why was Leopold II considered the "best prince of Europe"?? :)

He ruled his pay "like a father". He was very liberal and Tuscany, before the Italian unification, was very advanced in the social. Tuscany was known not only for its beauty, but also for its hospitality (a lot of English "escaped" in Tuscany... for ex. Elizabeth Barret Browing and his husband!).
Queen Victoria was disgusted by Vittorio Emanuele when he "stole" the throne of his virtuous uncle (who saved him from a fire when he was very little).
Title: Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
Post by: *§Yue§* on January 14, 2010, 01:56:59 PM
Lovely photographs/portraits! I also find the biography you posted very interesting and detailed.  Thanks a lot, *§Yue§*  If you find more information on her, please post.  :)  

Unfortunately, there is not much about her (there are some old books about her husband).

A curiosity: Maria Antonietta was in close emotional relationships with her famous half-sister, the beautiful Maria Carolina, Duchess of Berry. During the Revolution of 1848-49, Antonietta wrote to her beloved sister: "Nous nous trouvons ici dans une indicible position, nous sommes à la merci de la populace! Le sort qui nous attend est celui de Louis XVI et de sa famille...".
It's interesting that Marie-Antoinette's indirect descendants felt the weight of her fate.