Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Felipe II on November 14, 2005, 11:43:07 AM

Title: King Louis XII
Post by: Felipe II on November 14, 2005, 11:43:07 AM
Who knows s.th. abt. Louis XII (1462-1514), King of France (1498-1514)?

(http://renaissance.mrugala.net/Renaissance%20en%20France/Louis%20XII.jpg)

Since 1506 he was known as "le Père du Peuple" ("the Father of the People"). Was he perhaps one of France's greatest kings?
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 14, 2005, 11:57:43 AM
Quote
Who knows s.th. abt. Louis XII (1462-1514), King of France (1498-1514)?

Since 1506 he was known as "le Père du Peuple" ("the Father of the People"). Was he perhaps one of France's greatest kings?



He wasn't one of France's greatest kings - not really. More sort of middling to average, I would have thought!

He must have had something going for him to be called "Le Père du Peuple" after only eight years in office!

Interesting Trivia - his father married the widow of Richard II of England, whereas he married the sister of Henry VIII. Doesn't seem possible, does it?
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 14, 2005, 02:11:10 PM
Quote


Interesting Trivia - his father married the widow of Richard II of England, whereas he married the sister of Henry VIII. Doesn't seem possible, does it?


Yes, seems impossible! The age difference must have been huge!
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 03:10:18 PM
Quote

Yes, seems impossible! The age difference must have been huge!



louis was a lot older than mary... i also think he was an old age child
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Lorelei_Lee on January 18, 2006, 07:09:03 PM
I can't recall who Louis's first wife was, but whoever she was, he divorced her to marry Anne of Brittany, who was the widow of his predecessor Charles.  There were rumors at the time that Louis and Anne had been lovers during Anne's marriage to Charles, but more likely Louis married Anne to retain possession of her duchy of Brittany, which otherwise would pass out of French control.  Anne and Louis had two daughters, Claude and Renee, but no sons.  Claude married Francois d'Angouleme, Louis's cousin and heir.  I don't remember who Renee married, but at one point she was considered as a possible bride for Henry VIII.  I think she was Wolsey's preferred candidate, but of course nothing came of it since Henry had already decided that Anne Boleyn would be wife no. 2.  

Supposedly Louis was absolutely besotted with Henry VIII's young sister Mary, his third wife.  She, however, wasn't too happy with the situation and made it her mission to exhaust Louis with an endless round of dancing and partying.  He died within months of marrying Mary, and she eloped with a handsome commoner, Charles Brandon, with whom she had been in love previously.  She continued to be known as the French Queen even after her marriage to Charles Brandon, and was the second lady at Henry VIII's court after Catherine of Aragon, the queen.  

The only other thing I can remember about Louis is that he didn't get along terribly well with Ferdinand of Aragon, which stands to reason given the traditional enmity between France and Aragon.  They did, however, come to a temporary understanding in 1505 or so, when Ferdinand was quarreling with his son in law Philip the Handsome over the throne of Castile.  Louis and Philip had been allies, but then when Philip cut a deal with Henry VII of England, Louis decided that Philip was getting altogether too big for his britches and formed an anti-Philip alliance with Ferdinand to keep the balance of power a little more, um, balanced.  Anyway, as part of the alliance Louis gave Ferdinand his kinswoman Germaine de Foix to be Ferdinand's second wife.   She was 18; Ferdinand was pushing 50 at the time.  Seems to have been a trend back in those days.    
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on January 18, 2006, 07:28:17 PM
louis' first wife was joan of valois (she's a saint now), daughter of king louis xi. she apparently was a hunchback (i believe) and louis despised her. it was an arranged marriage.

when he inherited the throne of france, his predecessor, charles viii left it written in his last will that his successor must marry anne of brittanny to keep brittanny in the family. since louis didn't like his marriage to joan much, he didn't have a hard time annulling the marriage (he made a deal with pope alexander vi, also known as pope borgia, father of lucrezia and cesare... through which louis got his annullment while cesare borgia was to marry charlotte d'albert, a french noblewoman, and be turned into a french duke). whether or not there were feelings between louis and anne i don't know, but the marriage had to happen.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 18, 2006, 07:47:56 PM
I believe that Louis and Anne were devoted to each other.  They were Franciscan tertiaries and he had the Chateau de Blois along the Loire remodelled to suit her tastes. Their sarcophagus at Saint-Denis is really magnificent, showing them at prayer and then sculpted as they both looked at the moment of their respective deaths. Their daughter Claude married Francis I and was the mother of Henry II.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 01:43:54 PM
I've got the death mask of  Jeanne de France :'(

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/JJJ/JeannedeFrance.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 01:45:21 PM
Anne de Bretagne

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/AAA/AnnedeBretagne3.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/AAA/AnnedeBretagne2.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/AAA/AnnedeBretagne.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 01:47:01 PM
And himself, Louis XII :)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/LLL/LouisXII-2.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/LLL/LouisXII.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 01:55:30 PM
His first daughter Claude, Duchesse de Bretagne et de Berry (1499-1524), from 1514 queen of Fransois I

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/CCC/ClaudedeFrance1499-1524.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 01:59:21 PM
His second daughter  Renee duchesse de Chartres (1509-75), married in 1527 Ercole II d'Este, Duke of Ferrars & Modena

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/RRR/Renee.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 02:17:09 PM
His second wife was Mary Tudor, who was Henry VIII favorite sister, she was said to be very beautiful with reddish hair, she made a deal with her brother before marrying the old Louis XII. She would marry the old king, but if by any chance she would become a widow (which was almost certain) she could marry the man she loved. Henry VIII kept his promise and after a short time after she married the Duke of Suffolk.
  I have read that Louis XII died a couple of month after his mariage out of exaustement, since he tried his best to dande, go to huntings, he did not want to look or act as an old man in front of his young bride.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 19, 2006, 02:23:12 PM
I'm afraid that Marie Tudor was his third wife, from 1514

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/kaqup/MMM/MarieTudor.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 02:43:17 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/TudorMarysketch.jpg)

Mary Tudor
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 02:57:50 PM
Mary and Suffolk married

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Brandons.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kimberly on January 19, 2006, 04:24:16 PM
What a handsome couple
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on January 19, 2006, 04:36:45 PM
yes Kora you are right his third wife. ::)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on January 20, 2006, 05:31:29 AM
a bit of useless trivia: ercole II d'este, the husband of renee de france was the son of lucrezia borgia, the infamous :)

also, their daughter anna d'este was married to the duke of guise and her royal blood was also part of the plan to put the guise's on the throne during the three henris war...
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kora on January 20, 2006, 07:14:52 AM
Ohhh....  yes!!!  The Guises!!!  What do you think about the new thread about them??? ::)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on January 20, 2006, 06:18:46 PM
a new thread about guise?! where?! where?!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: umigon on September 13, 2006, 04:30:46 AM


Having a similar discussion over in the Tudor thread, I would like to start here a new one on the intimacy of this rare couple...

Did they ever consummate their marriage?? I really think they did, as Louis had been forced by Louis XI to sleep with her...
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kimberly on September 13, 2006, 05:44:19 AM
In what way was this lady deformed? Was it skin lesions/scarring from smallpox or something else?
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: umigon on September 13, 2006, 05:49:44 AM


She was lame, very small and hunchbacked. She was certainly those things but these deformities have been enhanced or lessened by her admirors or detractors all through history, so it's difficult to tell to what extent she was deformed...
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on September 13, 2006, 06:30:54 AM
i heard she was deformed. as in a hunchback. i never read anything of her not being able to have sex.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Kimberly on September 13, 2006, 07:02:34 AM
Thats why I asked what her deformities were ;) No reason why they physically couldn't consummate the marriage.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on September 13, 2006, 07:16:57 AM
unfortunatly i understand louis was a little repulsed.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on September 13, 2006, 11:32:46 AM
Great thread!!!

Jeanne is also known as "Jeanne la Boiteuse" she was born in 1464 and she was engaged to Louis when he was 23 month and she was 6 days, the infant parents signed and engagement contract on may 19 1464 at the castle of Blois. her first five yeras she  lived at the castle of Amboise, but her malfornity became to apparent and she was sent to the castle of Liniere in the region of Berry. It is said that she smallpox had done a lot of harm to her face, and she was quite ugly due to that fact. And so it seems that she was aldo sterile, since she did not grew up with her young husband. She was basecally raised by François de Beaujeu et Anne de Culan and she received a quite good education! Louis and Jeanne were married 12 years after the engagement, but Louis was he was king asked for an annulment. Afte rthe anulment Louis made her duchess of Berry, she lived in Bourges and had a convent founded there. She became a nun and died february 4 1505. She was made a saint in 1950.

Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Sissi on September 13, 2006, 11:38:57 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/jeanne_france.gif)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/louisXii2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 13, 2006, 05:44:35 PM
It just goes to show, that if you had the right connections and pushed the right buttons, a royal divorce was relatively easy to achieve. Of course Jeanne "went quietly", unlike Catherine of Aragon!

Louis got Brittany (and sadly only daughters). Jeanne got sainthood.

Somehow the whole business seems a bit tacky!  :P
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on September 18, 2006, 03:21:23 AM
louis arranged the divorce with pope alexander 6th, the nasty rodrigo borgia. at the time rodrigo's son, cesare borgia, was looking to marry high on the social ladder, but of course him being the pope's bastard son didn't help things. louis promised the pope a high marriage for his son, if the pope arranged the anullment of his marriage. louis got his wish and cesare was made duke of valentinois (i think) and married into the albret family. he left his wife weeks after the marriage and never saw her again.  :-\
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2006, 05:35:09 AM
That's true, ilyala, Louis promised Charlotte d'Albret to Cesare in exchange for the annullment. But it would have been granted anyway... Jeanne did defend herself and, unlike Catherine of Aragon, she did recognise the authority of the group of cardenals appointed to debate the validity of her marriage. She maintained that the marriage had been consummated and many arguements followed, as Louis XII said that he hadn't. She defended herself bravely and with intelligence but she knew that Louis would have his way. She just did it in order to defend her honour not really to prevent the marriage from being annulled. She believed in the marriage as a saintly sacrament but no one was happy with it: Louis wanted heirs and wasn't physically or intellectually attracted by her, Jeanne loved him in the medieval sense, but she prefered a retired life and her marriage had proven barren, Anne was a childless widow ... There was no way the marriage wouldn't have been annulled...
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on September 18, 2006, 06:06:17 AM
at that point in time the pope decided whether the marriage was to be anulled or not. and if the pope had interest to anull it, he did. i don't think anyone every argued about it, even if people felt sorry for the poor wife being left behind.

also, at that point in time the papal corruption had reached quite a peak. alexander 6th in particular is probably the most corrupt pope ever (or at least as far as proven corruption goes, maybe others just covered their tracks better). the anullment of a marriage had nothing to do with the word of god and everything to do with where the pope's interest lied. in this case the pope's interest was to marry his son into a good family. he did so and i'm sure he couldn't care less whether the marriage was valid or not.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: umigon on September 19, 2006, 05:02:31 AM
I wasn't saying anyone- except Jeanne- cared about the real validity of the marriage (that's why I said that she was fighting for her marriage although she knew it would be annulled anyway).

And about the Pope, yes and no. It was the Pope's wish to marry his son into a royal family, but he also feared Louis's pretensions on Italy. Finally, it was settled that Ceasar would marry Charlotte and Louis wouldn't try to interfere in papal states. But even if this hadn't been achieved, a great sum of money could have helped Alexander to grant the anullment. It was not only Ceasar's marriage that determined the annullment. The fact that they didn't have any children was also very very important.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: ilyala on September 19, 2006, 05:36:37 AM
actually cesare was created a french duke and at first helped louis with his italian wars. but he changed sides so many times, it's hard to keep track. cesare wanted full domination of the italian states and the pope was helping him because that would sort of mean papal domination, and that was an old dream for all popes.

i wasn't trying to contradict you, i'm just tryign to make things clear. there were many marriages happening between relatives at that time and the popes granted dispensations and then the same popes (or their successors) granted the annullments for various reasons (no children, not getting along, better match available). it was the way it was back then.
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: aron on April 02, 2007, 02:49:46 AM
Anne de Bretagne (1477-1514) was married to Charles VIII and Louis XII. I have read in different articles that she had 8 or 9 children (pregnancies) during her marriage with Louis XII.
I can only find 4 children from this marriage.

With Charles VIII:

-1 Charles Orland °Plessis-lès-Tours 10/10/1492 - + Amboise 16/12/1495
-2 son fils, stillborn,  Courcelles aug 1493
-3 daughter, stiilborn,  mar 1495
-4 Charles °Plessis-lès-Tours 08/09/1496 - + idem 02/10/1496
-5 François °1497 - + Montils-lès-Tours 1497
-6 Anne °born/died + 20/03/1498

With Louis XII:

-7 Claude ° Blois 13/10/1499 - + idem 20/07/1524, reine de France
-8 son °born/died + Blois 21/01/1503
-9 Renée ° Blois 25/10/1510 - + Montargis 12/06/1575, duchesse de Ferrare
-10 son °born/died Blois jan 1512

Who can help me getting this list up to date?
Aron
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: bell_the_cat on April 03, 2007, 05:56:07 PM
Hi Aron!

I don't know of any other children, but Anne had a singularly unproductive career - it's very sad....

It's quite remarkable that her daughter Renee survived until 1575 (she survived most of Claude's grandchildren).
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on April 04, 2007, 09:43:30 AM
With Louis XII she had further pregnancies in 1500, 1508 and 1509. I don't know if they were miscarriages or stillbirths though.

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=65151 (http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=65151)
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 23, 2010, 05:36:58 PM
Even though the engagement was canceled, I find it amazing that Anne was able to formally engage her daughter Claude, heiress to Brittany, to Archduke Charles (V) in the Treaty of Blois, when it was so clearly against her husband's interests as King of France, as it would mean a Habsburg-Burgundian encirclement of France. Did she just ignore her husband and go against his will or was Claude somehow "mama's special girl", as she was heiress to Anne's own duchy?
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: An Ard Rí on May 24, 2010, 05:44:27 AM
Hi Aron!

I don't know of any other children, but Anne had a singularly unproductive career - it's very sad....

It's quite remarkable that her daughter Renee survived until 1575 (she survived most of Claude's grandchildren).


Renée de France is a most interesting French Royal lady,though she has been largely forgotten .Madame Renée was somewhat eclipsed by her haughty Huguenot cousin,Jeanne d'Albret,Queen of Navarre & outlived her by a few years .

Renée & Jeanne fell out in 1570 much to the delight of Catherine de Médicis .
Title: Re: King Louis XII
Post by: An Ard Rí on May 24, 2010, 01:55:10 PM
Even though the engagement was canceled, I find it amazing that Anne was able to formally engage her daughter Claude, heiress to Brittany, to Archduke Charles (V) in the Treaty of Blois, when it was so clearly against her husband's interests as King of France, as it would mean a Habsburg-Burgundian encirclement of France. Did she just ignore her husband and go against his will or was Claude somehow "mama's special girl", as she was heiress to Anne's own duchy?

It would have caused a great difficulty for the next French King .The Queen was the major advocate of the Habsburg Union,Louis appeared to be in agreement with the Queen,he was secretly double dealing .
Behind the Queen's back he had his will changed & had a clause included which directed that Claude marry François d'Angoulême & another clause prohibited her from leaving the Kingdom until she married François d'Angoulême .Another part of his will also named the Queen as Regent with her sworn enemy,Louise de Savoie also having a prominent role in the Regency Council .

The King was also hoping that Queen Anne would give birth to a son,this he believed would undo most of the treaty .


Louis XII sent Georges Cardinal d'Amboise as his Chief Negotiator for the Treaty of Blois .The Habsburgs agreed to acknowledge French Soverignty over Burgundy & Flanders & also pledged to support Louis XII's investiture of Milan.The French offered Brittany,Blois,Nevers,Artois as territories for Claude & Charles,with Burgundy,Asti & Milan (should Louis die without a male heir).