Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: detective on January 24, 2004, 05:18:04 AM

Title: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: detective on January 24, 2004, 05:18:04 AM
There is a lot of mystery involved around this.  Many movies and books have been written on surviving Romanovs mostly on Anastasia.  Did she survive? Was Anna Anderson really Anastasia.  I mean The DNA report could have been manipulated.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on January 24, 2004, 09:53:14 AM
I moved this question to its own board because it tends to generate a lot of discussion.

There are 2 basic schools of thought. The one held in academic and scientific circles and by most who study the subject is that no one survived, based on the overwhelming preponderance of evidence of the murders.  We have eyewitness testimony that everyone was killed.  Subsequent investigations concluded the same.  The sheer logic of the situation is clear that even "if" anyone survived the initial shootings, beatings and stabbings, they would have soon died from lack of proper medical care, exposure, and lack of facilities to care for them...Notwithstanding there is the virtual impossibility at the time of hiding an Imperial Grand Duchess needing medical care, food and shelter, for any length of time without discovery.

We know for certain that Tsarevitch Alexei was one of the missing bodies.  Given his hemophilia, everyone concedes that he could not have survived long.  A fall at Bieloviezhe and later events at Spala nearly killed him...What would bullets and beatings and stabbings do? Besides there is the fact that as heir to the throne, the Bolsheviks would have certainly made quite certain he was dead.  There is also an historical account and testimony from a man who saw Alexei's body and described it in great detail.

The other thought says that since 2 bodies are missing the book cannot be "closed" on the possibility of survival.  They tend to rely on complicated conspiracy theories and fantasy stretches of reality for support, but find the "possibility" just too compelling to let it go.

We have talked to Dr. Terry Melton who performed some of the original mtDNA analysis comparing Anna Anderson's DNA with the DNA from Alexandra's direct family line and are convinced beyond doubt that her work was accurate, reliable and conclusive that Anna Anderson was in no way related to Empress Alexandra Feodrovna.

The Russian forensic scientists who have examined the remains are themselves clearly convinced that they have the remains of Anastasia and the missing body is in fact Marie Nicholaievna.

There are those, who will probably reply here, with their own preferred version of history.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Topanga on January 24, 2004, 10:24:38 PM
I dont believe any of them survived. I enjoy reading authors theories about how they could have remained alive, but I just dont think it would have been possible. The other bodies are out there, somewhere, possibly discarded after bring burned, or maybe even before that, but I definetely believe all of them were killed. Some authors theories about Alexei surviving make me laugh because its so unrealistic. Even forgetting how sick the boy was and what the beating and bullets would have done to his body, I dont think he would have survived long on his own without his family. He was so sheltered and protected by his overbearing mother that he would have died just from not being able to take care of himself. Anyhoo, thats just my opinion though! :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on January 29, 2004, 05:07:14 AM
"There is also an historical account and testimony from a man who saw Alexei's body and described it in great detail. "

Not trying to be gruesome or anything (although it's hard not to be when discussing murder), but is this account anywhere on the internet? If not, is it possible to post it?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 04, 2004, 12:12:19 AM
One might read THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Greg King & Penny Wilson. The descriptions of the executions [murders] and disposal of the bodies are rather gruesome, but the eyewitness accounts are in there, [pgs 303-305,  etc].
I realize this book has it's detractors, however the research is extremely well done. If some dispute their sources, I suggest they try it,
{the research, not the murders !]
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 04, 2004, 12:35:40 PM
There is a great deal of archival material in Yekaterinburg and the Urals that hasn't been translated into English - more accounts of people who were witnesses to the murder and the disposal of the bodies.  Don't forget that all the old Bolsheviks who participated were bragging about what they had done throughout their lives publically, on Soviet radio and in print.  It was a hideous badge of honor for them.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: anna on February 04, 2004, 02:45:20 PM
I once read in some article, that they took a picture of the bodies, right after the murder. Is that so?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Sushismom on February 04, 2004, 05:27:13 PM
I'm a fan of that particular book by King. One of the things I particularly enjoy about his books is the fact that he doesn't always take another author's word at face value - he does his own research. It's my belief that his books are more likely to be closer to the truth than others.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 04, 2004, 08:22:16 PM
Anna, the story of the 'photograph' is another one of Radzinsky's tales that he made up to sell his book.  There is no evidence for pictures being taken.

In my opinion the best books on the end of the Romanovs are Massie's "The Romanovs, The Final Chapter" and Mark Steinberg's "The End of the Romanovs" - you can fully trust these (although all authors make mistakes).

There are also two books from Yekaterinburg in the 1990's that contain loads of original sources.  Unfortunately, the only one of these in English is out of print and impossible to get.  I was lucky to get one when it came out - it was expensive - I am glad I got it.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Monarch on February 04, 2004, 09:28:54 PM
There is a great deal of archival material in Yekaterinburg and the Urals that hasn't been translated into English - more accounts of people who were witnesses to the murder and the disposal of the bodies.

This is what I would love to read about.  Just the local information.  Nothing to do with politics, just what they saw. Will it ever be translated Bob?  Have you read any of the accounts?? So interesting.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 05, 2004, 10:46:26 PM
I wish I had an inexpensive Russian translator and permission from the publisher to put one of the books online - it's amazing.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on February 06, 2004, 05:52:21 AM
Can you paraphrase any juicy titbits for us?  :o

::: Wishes she knew Russian ::::
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Monarch on February 06, 2004, 06:02:05 PM
Oh now there is an idea. Anyway of getting the publishers' permission?  I love reading the stories online.  This website is just what I was looking for. So many different aspects to savor when you have a subject such as this. Bravo in advance for any niffties you could divulge?!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Galina Alexander on February 09, 2004, 10:43:32 AM
Bob, can I ask what you personally think of Radzinsky's books? You sounded a bit negative about him. Thanks. Galina
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 09, 2004, 03:35:08 PM
I am grateful that he wrote his books and made this material available to millions of people.

I met Radzinsky in San Francisco when his first book came out.  he gave a lecture at a bookstore there and signed books afterwards.  During his leacture he went on and on about the 'mystery' of Aleksey and Anastasia's survival and why people should buy his book for more.

I asked him about the photo errors in it and he had nothing to say - he just shrugged his shoulders.  I then asked him if he really believed that Aleksey and Anastasia survived and se said I should buy his book to find out the answer.  I told him I had bought three copies all ready and wanted to know if he really believed in the Siberian Aleksey and his 'children' - he again suggested I read his book.  I didn't know if it was because his english was poor or what, but I couldn't get him to answer directly.  So next I asked him how he could claim the possibility that there were photos taken of the murder as his book speculated.  He refused to talk to me any more after that.

I think he loaded the book up with lots of stuff he knew not to be true but he just put it in to sell books.  It seemed to me the book was as much about him as about the Romanovs.  Also, because of the picture caption errors I wondered how well researched his book really was.

My preference is to just read the original accounts without Radzinsky's flowery prose and speculations passed off as truth.  That's why I prefer other books over his on this subject.

Also, I have to say that I thought his support of the rumors that Alexandra and Anna Vyrubova had a lesbian affair in the Raputin book was ridiculous.  No one believes that today and I think he threw it in to sell books.  It made me cautious about his whole Rasputin book.  How do we know what's true and what's not?

Bob
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: anna on February 11, 2004, 07:01:05 PM
What does Radzinsky wants  to achieve with his theatrical prose? Does he think his readers take everything for granted?

I  don't know how to deal with "The file on the Tsar" by Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold. I read this book a long time ago but it left a lot of questions and this book doesn't feel good by me.

They presumed, after years of investigation, only Nicholas was executed. Alexandra and the children were transported to Perm by train. They lived there for several weeks, then moved to Glazow and Kazan heading for Moscow. In between one of the girls tried to escape and maybe succeeded. (I think that's why they are pro-Anastasia). But somewhere on the road the family disapeared.

Summers and Mangold came up with "withhold"details and facts based on eyewitnesses, policerapports and other testimonys, all in russian. Even an BBC-documentary was based on this book. I wonder how did they get access to these files. If they really exist. Are they the only ones who did come up with such detailed
facts? Did anyone read this book and what's your opinion?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on February 12, 2004, 04:04:39 AM
Yes I read it . . . remember that it was written before the discovery of the grave though . . . I think the book was very speculative.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 14, 2004, 02:24:27 PM
I remember when the book came out - I stood and read it from cover-to-cover at the bookstore. I remember thinking - maybe, hopefully it could be true and someone escaped.  The one picture that stuck in my mind from the book was the description of Olga in gold-rimmed glasses going down to get something out of a trunk in Perm.  I could just see her doing it for some reason.  That book really created a sensation at the time.

For a number of years I read and reread the book, hoping it was true.  Well, as we all now know it wasn't true.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: pers on February 14, 2004, 09:29:43 PM
I think something that is worth mentioning, is that Greg King clearly indicates in his book that the maid who helped the Grand Duchesses conceal the jewellery, makes reference to it that it was sown into "kostyumi" and not into the "korset".  Thus it was not  a matter where two corsets were put on top of one another and sown together with jewels in padding between the two layers.
Thus logically, each woman would have worn one corset.  If you can get hold of the book "The Sokolov Investigation" you shall see that it contains photographs of a lot of the items found at the mine shaft where the bodies were undressed before they were thrown into the pit.  There is a photograph that shows the front busks of the corsets found, and they number exactly six, accounting for all six female corpses that were undressed and thrown into the pit.  So I personally do not think any of the women survived the massacre.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: investigator on February 15, 2004, 07:40:53 AM
If none of the romanovs survived then why is there so much mystery surrounding their death?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 15, 2004, 11:05:59 AM
Pers:

The jewels were not sewn into corsets they were sewn into double camisoles and the corsets were worn on top of them.

Bob
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 15, 2004, 11:43:03 PM
Regarding File on the Tsar: it has its place in Romanov scholarship in that in the West, because prior to its publication, there was never any critical study of the Sokolov Report. For many years, writers just continued to cite the Report as definitive without question.

While the book contains many mistakes, it did successfully challenge some of the questionable forensics. For example,  the long held belief that all the bodies could have been quickly destroyed by fire in the forest is absolutely demolished.

In my opinion, it's worth reading, but with the fingers over the nostrils for those parts that won't bear scrutiny.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Josh on March 03, 2004, 09:01:10 PM
Basically, the american scientists using bone and dental records assume Anastasia is missing. All the bones and teeth that were found were thought to be too mature for a seventeen year old according to the americans. However the russian scientists believe that Anastasia has been found. They used a method called superimposition that used facial features to identify Anastasia. However, considering that the most of the face had to be reconstructed from bone fragements, I belive this lacks credibility. I personally belive Alexei's and Anastasia's remains are still missing.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 03, 2004, 09:48:15 PM
Bob Atchison actually viewed the remains before burial. While not a scientist, he has an artist's eye for faces. He told me that Anastasia was definitely one of the sets of remains. I believe him, but that also comes from many years of friendship.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: connie dobbin on March 22, 2004, 04:50:01 PM
There has been so much speculation and missinformation on this subject that I feel that the people in charge would find it very difficult to accept new evidence.  I believe that whatever concrete  evidence might be presented, it would be destroyed, or conveniently missplaced.

Without a doubt Anna Anderson was definitely not Anastasia. Anna Anderson's DNA did not match!

I beleive like many people that two of the Tsars daughters survived and lived and had children. These children hold the relevant DNA as proof. Fact is would they want to be found? There has been so many death threats towards the family, why would they want to come forward.  So many imposters impersonating them, so much manufactured information. It would make the genuine individual hide.  The question then arises, if this is so, will the grandchildren react in the same way. Will they hide too?

The Romanovs DNA is in dispute. Recently I found heard that Scientists have found a finger.  Could this be the finger that was found in 1918 by the investigators at Four Brothers Mine? The Finger was said to belong to the Empress. The Russians have held on to this for such a long time.  However this finger doesn't match the supposedly Romanov DNA.  I find this very interesting as I am very sure that the Russians have miss informed the people as to the truth in the identication of the Romanov remains and DNA.




Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JM on March 22, 2004, 05:16:15 PM
      It's kind of funny that you say any concrete evidence which contradicts that which we already know would be destroyed if it arose. Then you go and say Anna could not be Anastasia because of DNA. Well then according to your reasoning isn't it just as possible that the DNA test results concerning Anna and Anastasia were "fabricated" somehow. (I am not "claiming" they are)

     You are also "very sure" that the Russians have misinformed us about the Romanovs DNA. Well then what was Anna's DNA actually being compared to!

     Sorry if I come off harsh. I just noticed a few things I had to comment on.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 22, 2004, 05:46:32 PM
TWO daughters ? I have read everything from the whole family to just one survivor, but not 2 daughters. Where does this come from?
This finger, I may not be totally up-to-date, but the only finger I know of was the "Sokolov" finger, which seems to have dissapeared into the walls of a Belgian church?
I am quite willing to be corrected.
So far as I know, the most recent published findings/research is by King & Wilson. Pretty darned thorough I think. The very explicit description of the death & disposal of the bodies seems to leave no doubt in my mind. [not that I had any to begin with-I have always believed that no one survived].
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 22, 2004, 07:56:39 PM
Update.

Knight, Zhivotovsky et al tested the finger of Alexandra's sister Elizabeth, and found that it doesn't match the published findings.

They also found that the Elizabeth finger was contaminated with DNA from 2 other individuals, while the Gill test of 9 individuals buried in loamy soil for 75 years and handled (seemingly) by everybody from the Minister of Internal Affairs to Bob Atchison, showed no contamination whatsoever is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Just teasing Bob, I'm sure you didn't touch the remains because if you had done so, some of your DNA may have contaminated them.  And of course, they were never handled in any way other than with the most proper scientific forensic rigour for the 8 odd years they were sitting there in the open on a steel slab in Ekaterinburg, right?   :-/  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 22, 2004, 08:00:34 PM
I am also surprised that this paper wasn't mentioned in King and Wilson's book.  I'm sure they must have known about the Stanford Romanov project all along.  Why didn't they include it in their book?

Also, I've recently learned that the Romanoff family has a close relationship with Stanford University (a couple of them have PHDs from Stanford) and the Hoover Institution.  Does anyone know if they have had anything to do with this?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 22, 2004, 08:54:19 PM
Also. . .

2 daughters?   :o

This is the first I've heard of that, too.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 22, 2004, 10:12:39 PM
Hi Penny!

Thank you.  I thought it might be something like that, but I had to ask to make sure.

Yes, it is evolving!  And isn't it amazing that it's still evolving after all of these years?   :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on March 23, 2004, 02:00:06 AM
Penny: I'm interested to know, considering the extensive research that you and Greg King clearly did for your book, whether you think that any of the Romanovs survived? I understand that you may be reluctant to answer such a question on a public message board, being the author of a well-known Romanov book, but I'm interested to know what you personally think.

Thoroughly enjoyed the book, incidently. :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: John Sarkissian on March 29, 2004, 02:57:03 PM
  :) Bob,
I am by no means a defender of Radzinsky. I also find his style to be too flowery for it's own good. But, I don't believe he ever suggested a lesbian liaison between Anna Vyrubova and Alexandra. What he said was that there were rumors going around in the society, no doubt caused by the unusualness of this friendship. Gossip and rumors were certainly a trademark of Russian society. There were also rumors about Alexandra sleeping with Rasputin. But that doesn't necessarily make the story true. What I do believe in Radzinsky's story is that Anna had a crush on Alexandra and would do anything not to make Alexandra suspicious about it. Because she knew that if Alexandra suspected any such thing that would be the end of her friendship with Alexandra and that would be it. So she played dumb and cute and in love with Nicholas, etc...
That's what Radzinsky was saying and not that the two women had a lesbian affair.

John
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on March 29, 2004, 06:13:41 PM
As i´m reading again that part of Radzinsky´s book i clearly see that Radzinsky openly suggested(not to say concluded) that Anna was in fact in love with Alexandra and that (p. 93) "intelligent Anya devised this game(...)that reassured the Tsarina". The game he refers to is pretending being in love with Nicholas only to confuss the Empress about her real feelings for her. Radzinsky is a great writer for theatrical works but with history he is,not only in my opinion but for many russian historians, too imaginative...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on March 29, 2004, 06:30:01 PM
Quote

There are also two books from Yekaterinburg in the 1990's that contain loads of original sources.  Unfortunately, the only one of these in English is out of print and impossible to get.  I was lucky to get one when it came out - it was expensive - I am glad I got it.



Hello Bob,
Could you tell me please the title and author of that book translated? I use to check often the web for rare books and coul include this in my search...
Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 29, 2004, 06:44:34 PM
When I read Radzinsky's first book I was mesmerized--a Russian writing about Russians!  But soon enough his suppositions and flights of fancy began to annoy me. He has a dramatist's way of telling the story--as if you're a small child, listening at bedtime--so while I can't deny that at times he may be correct, I feel that he is much more raconteur than historian.  

When it comes to Anna Vyrubova, I think she was simply an immature personality, attaching herself in puppy-dog fashion to those who listened to her and sympathized with her.  We know that Marie Nicholievna had this same quality of being as faithful and obliging  as a puppy, but it also appears that, for all of her emotional dependency, she was growing out of that tendency and becoming more her own person.  In my opinion, Anna was not willing and/or capable of doing so and probably would have continued to have her  childlike "crushes" on both the Tsar and the Tsarina for the rest of her life. As it was, she did continue to support them and--within her own limited means--to save them, and after their deaths took on a "Keeper of the Flame" role.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on March 29, 2004, 06:58:34 PM
Shlugin reported Anna was called 'a walking gramophone player' - that ties in with what you posted, Janet..
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: BobAtchison on March 29, 2004, 07:01:52 PM
I might add that since Anna was cruely mistreated in prison - physically and mentally - she may have matured drastically as a result.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Louise on March 31, 2004, 10:24:19 AM
Have there been any theories on why the majority of claimants have been Alexei and Anastatia? Why anyone would want to claim to be Alexei and have to prove hemophilia has always made me shake my head, but anyway. What has stopped men and women from claiming to be Tatiana or Olga or Maria?

Louise
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Valmont on March 31, 2004, 11:18:32 AM
I guess men have been stoped in their claim by the fact that Olga, Tatiana and Marie were women, but hey, don't call me reliable.

As of why Anastasia and Alexei have been so popular among pretenders?. I have no idea. But you raise a good point.



Best,


Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JM on March 31, 2004, 11:37:23 AM
The most likely reason that there were so many "Anastasia's" is because of Anna Anderson. She started it as far as I'm concerned and she got attention. Unfortunately everybody wanted a piece of the pie.

Alexei was the heir. People probhably thought they had alot to gain by pretending to be Alexei.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 31, 2004, 11:52:53 AM
Probably one of the reasons would be that the younger the person in jeopardy, the more the dramatic the story--also, physiological changes are very much ongoing during early teenage years, whereas physical changes are less dramatic and open for "wiggle room" by the late teenage years and early twenties.

And, of course, Anna Anderson seemed to be the one with the strongest claim, in terms of her supporters and of her appearance, explanations, etc.  She was an impish child--who can resist that?--but also had a better chance for survival than her brother.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Father_Nick on March 31, 2004, 05:58:58 PM
It just goes to show how much the Romanovs still fascinate us today, years and years after their horrible murder.  

I have never subscribed to the voices who believe Anastasia (Or ANY of the family for that matter) survived.  I was glad that the DNA evidence put to rest once and for all the rumors about the famous (or INfamous) Anna Anderson being the Grand Duchess.  I am not sure where I read this but it was written (almost without thought) that a correspondent or someone once asked Yarovsky (The eye-witness executioner) if Anastasia survived.  He replied without a second thought, "They ALL perished."  That's enough for me.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Arleen on April 01, 2004, 02:56:18 PM
Alice, Just a thought, you mentioned plastic surgery in the 1920's.  One of the characters I loved most in Edvard Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR is Vera the ancient/old turn of the century actress who totters around on very high heels......she claims that Empress Marie Feodorovna had facial surgery in the 1890's and describes the terrible ordeal that it was...in order to stay young and beautiful.  ..Arleen
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 01, 2004, 03:05:02 PM
Dear Uncle Valmont--

I'm very proud to call you thus, but I hope this doesn't mean that you and I will be obliged to have children together a la Uncle Mischa and Olga.

Your (reasonably) loving niece,

Janet
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 01, 2004, 03:27:51 PM
I guess I'll have to stop because Uncle V's earlier message, giving us leave to heap everything on his shoulders, has mysteriously disappeared. Maybe it will reappear for Alexandra and Alice to review at their sled-and-snow summit?!

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Valmont on April 01, 2004, 03:48:40 PM
Quote
Are we going to hear about how Uncle Francesco escaped the Bolsheviks or not?


Jane


Yes, I would also like to know... You never know when you might end up in a situation like that.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Valmont on April 01, 2004, 04:30:18 PM
Quote
I guess I'll have to stop because Uncle V's earlier message, giving us leave to heap everything on his shoulders, has mysteriously disappeared. Maybe it will reappear for Alexandra and Alice to review at their sled-and-snow summit?!



And to think of the plots that can be made on an innocent  two-horse open sleigh....

I wonder if Alexandra and Alice ever visited Tijuana, They would have been really popular smugling babies over the border..

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Jane on April 01, 2004, 04:35:36 PM
Well, baby-smuggling is a very lucrative business, I hear.  Someone's got to pay for all those royal jewels.

Jane
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: anastaxia on April 03, 2004, 07:04:55 AM
did the song once upon a december really exist?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JM on April 03, 2004, 09:03:21 AM
Wasn't that song part of the animated Anastasia movie?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: nerdycool on April 03, 2004, 03:51:35 PM
Yes, "Once Upon a December" was written specifically for the movie "Anastasia." It was written by Lynn Ahrens and Stephen Flaherty.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2004, 06:06:34 PM
In 1947-8, I was told two of  Nicholas II's children escaped the execution of the communists, so, it did not surprise me when I read  in the newspapers the report which stated two of Nicholas II's childen were missing from the shallow grave revealed to the public in the 1990s.
AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JM on April 03, 2004, 06:10:43 PM
I'm just wondering who told you this?

Thanks
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2004, 07:09:05 PM
A question  I wish I could answer.  I don't think I knew who the man really was nor how he knew what he did.  All I know is, he was a friend of my grandfather who told me I was supose to remember the story because it was important to remember.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2004, 07:16:35 PM
Today is my first day, it's been intertaining, and, I hate to leave but the chicken needs to be prepared for tonight BBQ.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on April 04, 2004, 04:45:24 PM
Did he say which two children had escaped, or anything else about it?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 04, 2004, 08:36:17 PM
So true, and my leg of lamb is about time...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2004, 02:20:51 PM
The chicken we BBQ was excellent,  as was the fried rice etc. .  

Since  I think a barb  like "my great grandmother Broomhilda Fizzlestick was Anastasia" is NOT a  worthy comment for this well intended discussion board, I will make no farther reference toward it nor toward other remarks that ring with  this kind of nonsense.

For farther reference,  I am not  just dropping a statement and running off never to return.  And, as far as I know,  I am quite stable in mind and spirit.

One of my failures is my constant hunger to know  what are the truths and what are the red herrings of  the events which lead up to and occured after the night of 16/17 of July 1918 in the House of Special Purpose in Ekaterinburg.

This leads me back to where I left off before I had to leave to cook dinner.

In 1948,  I was only six years old.  Hardly old enough to understand what I was told about people in a far away country about something that happen long before I was born.

There was a name given to the gentleman who told me the story.  A name which I have long forgotten and have assumed since that the name given  was probably not his real name.  So, for the sake of this conversation, let me give him a label,  let me call him Mr. XXX.

I do known:  Mr. XXX spoke three lanuages while I was in his presents: English, German and what I thought was Russian.  

I do know: My grandfather  was born in Russia and  one of his brothers was an officer of the White Army which  entered Ekaterinburg in July of  1918.

Perhaps with the help of people reading this, we can discover who Mr. XXX was and why a six year old was told the story so long after the event.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on April 14, 2004, 02:28:26 PM
Lisa Davidson posted this in another thread about why people wanted to believe Anna Anderson, I think it applies to why many of the emigres repeated stories of survival, and I think the same idea answers your last question:
"I've always believed so many people believed AA because the idea that the entire Imperial Family was murdered was so difficult for the Russian emigre community to fathom. Denial as we now know is a necessary part of the grieving process. Peter Kurth tells us the story of Anastasia is really a story of emigres and he is right.
 
So, while we don't see the resemblance (no one I know does), for people who had lost their country, their leader, their homes, and most if not all their material assets - the idea of one grand duchess surviving was just too compelling to pass by."
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2004, 03:12:33 PM
"Denial as we now know is a necessary part of the grieving process."

This is true.  And, this is one of the many theories  I've pondered.  And, at  the end of this discussion this "grieving process" may be the conclusion of some people on this Discussion Board.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Deshka on April 15, 2004, 09:31:36 PM
I'm writing a research paper about Anastasia Nikolaevna Romanova and I need 20 good bibliographical references to start. Could anyone recommend any good books, websites, articles, etc.? I would really appreciate your help!   :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 16, 2004, 08:59:39 AM
Hello Deshka,
Are you to include Anna Anderson in your study?This is very important to know what books you will need.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Namarolf on April 16, 2004, 06:02:33 PM
Antonio, I've heard that in the Spanish edition of Summers & Mangold there is a chapter under the name "The Spanish friend" ("El amigo espanol") not included in the English original, about all the negotiations between King Alphonso XIII and the soviets concerning  his offer of assylum in Spain for the Tsaritsa and her daughters. Do you know something about this? Is is possible to find the book in Spain?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 16, 2004, 10:06:27 PM
Hello Namarolf!
I must confess that i bought the english edition long before knowing that an spanish one did exist, so  I could not tell you for sure. The book you can buy in some spanish internet bookshop. I will send you the link if i find it. Those negotiations took place and there is somewhere in this forum a link for an spanish article on that subject.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2004, 08:59:30 PM
Does anyone know where a person could find information [in English] that talks about the White Army officers who went into Ekaterinburg three days after the day the CHEKA claimed they executed Nicholas II and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Arleen on May 04, 2004, 02:52:07 PM
Hi AGRBEAR, have you read "The Fate of The Romanov's" by Greg King and Penny Wilson??  I've just finished it and am still feeling overwhelmed by the information in that book....like I need to sit by myself somewhere and just think about it!!  It has more details about the days after the execution than I have ever read before, maybe the name you are looking for will be there.  Good luck.         Arleen
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 14, 2004, 02:26:43 PM
Does anyone remember that guy claiming to be the grandson of Nicholas II by an illegitimate daughter that the Tsar conceived with an alleged illegitimate half-sister?

Anthony Goralski or something?  

What was the deal with him?  (His page was a riot, the guy was a total conspiracy theorist, Illuminati, tin foil hat, the whole bit)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 14, 2004, 10:30:07 PM
He was and is a whack job. Welcome to the wonderful world of the Romanov crazies! One time in the 1990's "Tony" mailbombed me. Oh joy.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 15, 2004, 05:48:03 PM
Hopefully he has stopped harrassing people. He was very evil with Bob and me. I don't wonder where he has gone!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: londo954 on May 16, 2004, 03:24:06 AM
Nikolai Sokolov's book on the investigation was published in French and was translated into English I remember reading it in my university library. It is an excellent report on teh investigation but leaves out a lot of key testimony especially ANYTHING concerning the possibility of surviving Romanov's
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 16, 2004, 09:44:15 AM
Having read both the original French and much later English translations of Sokolov, I must caution that the English translation by O'Conor is not very accurate. He seems not to really understand the vocabulary and terminology of French of the earlier 20th Century.  I use a 1910 French/English dictionary when translating these earlier sources, its amazing how much vocabulary can change in just thirty or forty years..
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 20, 2004, 05:16:50 PM
A friend and I saved the text from his site and were going to write up an MST3K treatment of it for a fan fic site, but we never finished it.

From what I've read of the account, for the bodies NOT to have been the Romanovs, you'd have to go out, find a bunch of people exactly similiar to each person who was murdered, kill them, bury them, and then make up rumors and such for years.  Doesn't sound likely.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 20, 2004, 06:16:28 PM
Not according to Massie.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 20, 2004, 10:04:13 PM
In his book, The Romanovs, the Final Chapter, he quotes one of those who studied the remains who states:

Quote
On the larger issue, Maples agreed absolutely with Abramov that these are the Romanovs.  The nine skeletons fit the requirements of age, sex, height and weight of nine of the prisoners in the Ipatiev House.  "If you were to go out at random and try to assemble another group of people to fit exactly these historical and physical descriptions, you would have to do remarkable research and then go out and find and kill nine identical people," said Maples.  He regards this as so unlikely as to be impossible.

-Massie, 67-69.

So no, Massie isn't a geneticist, but the people he's quoting ARE experts at this type of thing.

Then the DNA pretty much fit the criteria.

I think in this case, Occam's Razor applies-the simpliest explanation is the most likely.  Why come up with a bunch of conspiracy theories?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on May 21, 2004, 07:22:29 PM
I have not read:
"The Fate of The Romanov's" by Greg King and Penny Wilson

Does it have the names of the officers in the White Army who were the first ones to enter the Ekaterinburg house on 20 July 1918 and must have been looking for the Royal Romanov family?
----
As for the more recent subject about the DNA:

In 1918 no one imagined such a process would exsist.  Fingerprinting was the big deal in the world of criminal investigation in that time period.    When the Soviets tore down the House of Special Purpose [I don't remember the year],  DNA was just coming into it's own.  Was this one of the reasons  the Soviets, after all the time had passed,  deside to tear eliminate all evidence which remained?

You can see, I lean torward the theory that the Soviets continued to have something to hide.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: pinkmustang on May 22, 2004, 10:59:53 AM
I personally beleive that Anastasia did survive, but that's because i want to, not because of evidence. It's nice to think that she did survive and the whole story of her was like the 20th century fox movie. I think with cases like this it's what you want to believe to make it more exciting.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 22, 2004, 11:27:32 AM
I believe Ipatiev House was torn down because it was starting to become a tourist attraction, and they just wanted to get rid of it-to prevent it becoming a shrine.

As for surviving, again-yeah, it would be nice if they did.  We'd all LOVE for that to be true.  But it's not, and since we're dealing with real people and real historical events, ignoring reality does nothing.  Anastasia was not a mythical figure, she was a real person.  

For example, I WANT to believe in a lot of things-I'd like to believe that war and violence and poverty don't exist, but they do.  Wishing them away isn't a good thing.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 22, 2004, 06:10:02 PM
Pinkmustang - for goodness sake! The real Anastasia's life was nothing like the Fox cartoon!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Ammie on May 22, 2004, 08:09:56 PM
Quote
You have to remember you are talking about the Soviet Union.  They had plenty of time and inclination to go through all sorts of twists and turns to achieve their goals.
Besides, the DNA has been invalidated.  
And having read Massie, on page 71, he makes it clear that the experts disagreed about the identity of the remains even during the press conference!  One of Dr. Knight's team pointed out to me that Dr. Zvyagin was far more qualified than Abramov, but Abramov 'reminded' him during the conference who's boss and overruled his conclusion regarding the sex of skeleton 1.
Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss.


Won't get fooled again  ;)  great quote..sums it up very nicely   ;D
ammie
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on May 22, 2004, 10:27:21 PM
"The real Anastasia's life was nothing like the Fox cartoon!"

ROTF!

I like to remain open-minded (by this I'm not implying that I consider that Anasastia's life may've been like a cartoon, I'm referring to the survival VS death argument).

As far as I can see, while the remains for Anastasia (and Alexei) have not been found, we have a mystery (the understatement of the century!). There is no conclusive evidence of survival, nor is there conclusive evidence of death.

I, myself, have many theories for both Anastasia and Alexei's death and survival. Many of them would seem ludicrous to most people, and I'm not saying that my theories are at all likely, but they are, at least, possible.

The most perplexing question for me is: why did Yurosvky lie about the cremation of two of the remains? Pig's Meadow has been examined over and over, with no more remains found. I wonder why he lied about this but was rather open in his memoirs about the location of the main grave.

Someone (not necessarily on this thread) suggested that the remains of Anastasia and Alexei were eaten by animals. I am reluctant to believe this. Firstly, I cannot imagine the Bolsheviks leaving remains on the forest floor, unburied. If they did bury them, and they were subsequently dug up by animals, I cannot imagine that animals would consume all of the bones of two bodies - this is over 400 bones, there would be something left. Hair and teeth, at the very least, would remain. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't believe that many animals would consume skulls.

For the purpose of discussion, I will share one of my "survival" theories. Please feel free to criticise and deconstruct my theory. I encourage this. I think that it is at least possible that, because Yurovsky spared the life of Leonid Sedniev, that he spared the lives of Alexei and Anastasia, both children at the time of the murders. I am completely aware that this very unlikely.

Evidence that could support this theory:

- Yurovsky spared Leonid Sedniev. Alexei and Anastasia were children, like Leonid Sedniev.

- Yurovsky was often seen asking after Alexei's health and having conversations with him in the Ipatiev House.

- In his memoirs, Yurovsky says that the truck that he summoned to transport the bodies arrived hours later than intended. Possibly in the time before the truck's arrival, Alexei and Anastasia were removed from the house, and then the truck was summoned.

- Yurovsky says he cremated the remains of Alexei and Demidova. He had to say Alexei, as it would've been obvious to anyone who uncovered the grave that the body of a 13 year old boy was missing, but by saying that he cremated Demidova with him, he is accounting for all of the Imperial Family in the main grave, with the exception of Alexei. (Because Anastasia would be assumed to be one of the bodies found in the main grave). If he really did cremate the bodies, then he lied about the two bodies he cremated, because Demidova was in the main grave. Nowehere in his memoirs does he refer to the cremation of Anastasia.

- He lied about the cremation and burial of the two bodies. We now know that it is impossible to cremate two bodies in the conditions and time that the Bolsheviks had. He said he buried the remains, and that he supervised both burials (the burials of the 9 in the main grave, and of the 2 in the other grave). This suggests that these graves were in the vicinity of one another, but, additional remains have never been found in Pig's Meadow.

- All four daughters were said to have been "finished off" with shots to the head. But, eyewitnesses saw two of the daughters alive when they were being transported to the truck. It is possible that one daughter survived a shot to head (albeit VERY unlikely) but two? According to most eyewitnesses, Anastasia was the last of the family to die. Was this conveniently appended to the statements?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 03, 2004, 08:19:47 PM
Can anyone give evidence   that all these bodies were in the shallow grave since 1918??????  I don't mean the words of those who claimed to have killed and buried all but two of the royal family.  I mean, evidence by the scientists that the bodies had to have been in this grave since 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 04, 2004, 02:50:50 AM
Ivan Koryakov and Lydmilla Koryakova, probably the two most experienced forensic anthropologists of the Russians who exhumed the grave and assisted in the first examinations, concluded that yes, the bodies had been in the grave for approximately 70 years or so, based a number of factors.  They were not "recent" plants-a judgment with which everyone we talked to for "Fate of the Romanovs" and indeed everyone involved-Maples, Falsetti, Levine, France-at the US end, agreed.

However, for what it's worth, I do think the grave was opened perhaps twice-I suspect once in the late 1920s, under Stalin's orders (at the same time as Anna Anderson began to get a lot of publicity in the West), perhaps to see how many bodies really were there, and again sometime between 1979 or 1980 and 1991; we go into the evidence for this second opening in "Fate," and it seems pretty conclusive to me.  But we don't think it was to plant bodies or evidence-probably curiosity, or even accidental.  The first, back in the 1920s, would, I think, have been to ascertain how many were present, to corroborate what Yurovsky said; I don't think it's necessarily an accident that only after 1928 do the various accounts become quite specific regarding Anastasia being cremated-as if they feared AA might be the genuine article (which has nothing to do with the claim itself, mind you-merely the perception on the part of the Soviets) and thus began to pepper statements with accounts of her death.

One conundrum is not only the state of the exhumed remains-Koryakova was horrified at how disarticulated the skeletons were-it was not the ordinary result of disintegration, nor the side-effects of the earlier digs-but more to the point-that two-thirds of what should have been there was simply missing-they never recovered enough bones to account for three human beings, much less nine, though they had the correct number of skulls, six still attached to spinal columns and vertebrae (meaning they weren't just tossed in to provide the missing numbers).  Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.  And it can't be put down to simple disintegration (Koryakova said no when asked about this) nor to the various digs and exhumations-they just weren't there.  Even taking into account the expected amount of missing skeletal remains, the Romanov grave puzzled all of the scientists with its sheer lack of bones.  I suspect (only a theory) that some of these were probably exhumed either in the 1920s or between 1980-91 and disappeared into some lab in Moscow to be analyzed.  There's never been another explanation for this-and the grave itself was intact though disturbed, meaning it hadn't been dug up by animals or forraged-a difficult task anyway given the layers of railway ties, stones, brush, and more ties that had been placed on top of it.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: brielle14 on June 14, 2004, 09:23:38 PM
Quote
After 20 minutes, the job still wasn't done:  "When they laid one of the daughters on the stretcher, she cried out and covered her face with her arm.  The others [the daughters] also turned out to be alive.  We couldn't shoot anymore with the open doors the shots could have been heard on the street.”  And if the bodies were thrown still alive on the truck? If they were driven out of the city with the girls still moaning?  "It is easy to write that they 'checked,' says Radzinsky, "but how could they really have checked in that smoke, in that horror, in that fever amid the pools of blood'?"


I read this quote recently in an article titled: "The Mystery of the Romanov Bones" from a Vanity Fair issue dated from 1993. Does anyone think that the possibility of one of the daughters escaping was possible, based on this quote?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 15, 2004, 07:56:03 PM
Twenty minutes is a long time to be shooting in a basement room.  

How many claimed to be shooters?  With Rifles?  Hand guns? Shotguns?

Were there any bullets among the bones?

Did any of the shooters suffer wounds from bullets glancing off the walls?



AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 15, 2004, 08:03:22 PM
 <<Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.>>

Then it is possible that the bodies were not originally buried in the shallow grave in July 1918 and it is possible the bodies may have originally been buried  elsewhere.... Maybe in Aug. or Sept. 1918 or 1919 or 1920 the bodies were placed in the shallow grave where the communists claimed the CHEKA buried them in July 1918....?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: ChristineM on June 16, 2004, 06:13:22 AM
I cannot understand the romantic notion that Anastasia survived.   On the contrary, my hope would be that she did not survive.   The alternative is unimaginable.   Who would want to survive in those circumstances?  The very idea is extremely cruel.   Just because it may fit neatly into a Hollywood movie, does not take account of the fact that she was a human being with feelings like the rest of us.

Just think for a moment.   Would you want to survive having witnessed the slaughter of your entire family and then rejection by those relatives who were left... homeless... rootless?   No thank you.

tsaria
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Adele on June 16, 2004, 06:58:37 AM
Quote
I cannot understand the romantic notion that Anastasia survived.   On the contrary, my hope would be that she did not survive.   The alternative is unimaginable.   Who would want to survive in those circumstances?  The very idea is extremely cruel.   Just because it may fit neatly into a Hollywood movie, does not take account of the fact that she was a human being with feelings like the rest of us.

Just think for a moment.   Would you want to survive having witnessed the slaughter of your entire family and then rejection by those relatives who were left... homeless... rootless?   No thank you.

tsaria



Actually, many people have 'survived having witnessed the slaughter of' ones entire family; it's called WAR.  And, I know of many people who have no other realtives after getting out of Concentration Camps in WW2.  Even so, they are very happy just being alive.  That's not to say they are also deeply saddened by what happened.  It was a nightmare.  But they survived and nothing is better than Life!  For most people, that is.  At least the alternative isn't a pleasant thought.

Also, to give respect to those who are fascinated by the Anastasia Survival story; I feel  that Mystery is at the root of the fascination and mystery intriques most people.  Also, it tells a story of Redemption in an archetypal way: that there was a man in that horrible group who murdered the family, who at the last moment actually felt compassion for the young girl who was still alive.....so much so, that he helped her escape.

I personally don't believe anyone could have survived, but I have an open mind; there are just so many conflicting stories as to what happened that anything could be true.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 16, 2004, 09:50:59 AM
Both Adele and Tsaria have very valid points. But ghoulish as this may sound, I must agree with those who dont accept the survivor theory -(charming tho' it might seem.)

There were only 11 bodies to be disposed of after the execution and although many folks here may hate the revolutionaries-- I feel certain that they could count.  

Someone would have noticed.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 16, 2004, 03:57:27 PM
Isn't this the point of our discussion?  To ask questions such as:

Who did the counting?  CHEKA.

Can they be trusted in their count?  No.  

And, later, it was the communists who were giving out the facts.  Could they be trusted?  No.

So,  it's up to others to discover the truth.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 16, 2004, 06:44:26 PM
Good point AGRbear,

I guess that at the moment, I am inclined to accept the DNA results and Dr Maple's statements regarding the execution. Surely he's not a Cheka agent!!!  ;)

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 16, 2004, 07:08:42 PM
One other question...
  Wasn't there a woman fron Ohio who claimed to be Anastasia ...I don't remember her name but supposedly she met up with a Polish ex-spy who claimed to be Alexie ( I really did read this -  although, I admit-  it does sound like some silly soap opera plot  ::) ) Eventually their mutual "escape stories" sort of cancelled each other out... and they parted ways... Does anyone know anything about this Anastasia claimant?  
So sorry if this is part of another thread... ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 17, 2004, 06:29:28 AM
Quote

I read this quote recently in an article titled: "The Mystery of the Romanov Bones" from a Vanity Fair issue dated from 1993. Does anyone think that the possibility of one of the daughters escaping was possible, based on this quote?


The actual quote is from the statement by Alexander Strekotin, a member of the guard (not a shooter) who observed this.  Strekotin's statement remained concealed in the Party Provincial Archives in Sverdlovsk until 1990, whereas stories of survival began to circulate within weeks of the murder.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 17, 2004, 06:41:01 AM
Quote
Twenty minutes is a long time to be shooting in a basement room.  

It was actually about ten minutes, from all of the available information.

How many claimed to be shooters?  With Rifles?  Hand guns? Shotguns?

Were there any bullets among the bones?

Did any of the shooters suffer wounds from bullets glancing off the walls?

AGRBear


To answer the above very briefly (we went into great detail in "Fate of the Romanovs" and in the special issue of "Atlantis" about these aspects):

1.  There were ten men shooting that night.
2.  Fourteen guns were used that night-all pistols and revolvers; between them they held 103 shots.
3.  13 bullets were recovered from the murder room; two from the area surrounding the Four Brothers Mine in 1918, along with an empty casing; in 1991 during the exhumations of the mass grave in Koptyaki Forest a further 25 bullets were recovered.  In 1998 Peter Sarandinaki found one Nagant bullet half concealed in the clay and overgrowth surrounding the abandoned mine.
4.  Several of those shooting either suffered powder burns (owing to the close proximity of the shooters) and possibly the effects of ricochets that may (the evidence conflicts) have caused some physical injury.  The majority of the bullets fired remained in the bodies.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 17, 2004, 06:49:03 AM
Quote
Good point AGRbear,

I guess that at the moment, I am inclined to accept the DNA results and Dr Maple's statements regarding the execution. Surely he's not a Cheka agent!!!  ;)



The problem, obviously, is that Maples wasn't there.  He made the statement that based on his experience, no one left that room alive, both in public and to me.  And yet we know that both Marie and Anastasia were alive when they were removed from the room and taken to the truck-they had to be "finished off" with bayonets.  Neither had been shot in the head and killed, despite claims otherwise.

I liked Bill Maples a lot-he was always a straight-shooter-but clearly some of what he said and believed to be true in this case (like his accounting of the confusion over the appearance of the bodies and the mix-up with Demidova or Alexandra versus Anastasia being explained as decomposition and maggot infestation-a charge refuted by Professor Neil Haskell, the world's only full-time forensic entomologist) can be shown not to have been the case.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 17, 2004, 08:04:40 AM
Mr. King,

How do we " know" that Marie and Anastasia were both alive when removed from the basement? Who told us that ? Bolshevics?  So many people here refuse to believe anything else that these people say...so ought anyone accept that statement as fact?  ;)
I don't mean to seem rude  - no doubt you know a great deal more about this than I ever could.  Dr. Maple's condemnation of the idea of "kind hearted murderers" made a great deal of sense, at least to me. I do hope that I haven't  taxed your patience ! Thanks for your kind response.  :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 17, 2004, 06:13:10 PM
Penny,

Thank you for your clarifications - you're very kind, polite and above all patient!  :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 17, 2004, 06:51:04 PM
It's not a question of 'All Bolsheviks lie all the time.' That's an obvious mischaracterization, and is not at all entailed by my prior commentary.

A better, more logical characterization would be 'of the set of comments made by bolsheviks regarding this matter, which is, or are true and which is, or are false?'

The problem is the fact set from which conclusions regarding the truthfullness of contemporary accounts have been, and are presently being drawn from, is elastic when by all rights it should be static.  This result presents per se prima facie evidence of the unreliability of contemporaneous partisan accounts.  



Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Belochka on June 17, 2004, 11:03:44 PM
Under the circumstances the accounts made by Bykov and others are the only real primary sources we have to rely on. The issue of veracity is subject to scrutiny after the fact.

The investigations which followed under Sokolov (who was working for Kolchak's Siberian White Army) also compounded the problem of ascertaining what actually happened. There were errors of judgement made by him as well.

Facts can be embellished, misinterpreted or simply ignored, however it would be wrong to claim that everything the Bolsheviks wrote down at the time would not have some credibility.

One of the problems the Soviets had with covering up information is that uncertainties and/or distortions gave rise to rumors which became perpetuated as myths which persist today.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 18, 2004, 06:37:34 PM
CHEKA Claims are:

According to Edvard Radzinsky's book, The Last Tsar, p. 341-2;
The shooters were and who was listed as their target:
1. Commandant Yakov Yurovsky - Tsaritsa
2. Peter Ermakov - Tsar
3. Nikulin Alexei - Marie
4. Mikhail Medvedev (Kudrin) - Tsar's daughter [not named]
5. Pavel Medvedev - daughter  [not named]
6-11. Latvians from the CHEKA - finished off the others

Photographs following page 366:

"Part of the assasination squad:  Nikolai Tolmachev, Alexander
Belborodov, Gregory Safarow and Filipp Goloshchekin"

According to Noble Frankland's book Imperial Tragedy he wrote p.  163 that Yourovsky executed the Tsar, who died instantly, then he shot Alexis...  Didn't die immediately and he was shot again...  "The other men, some of them wildly, shot at the other prisioners."

Edvard Radzinsky wrote about Yurovsky and Ermakov both claiming to have shot the Tsar.

Robert Massie in his book The Romanovs, The Final  Chapter:
pps. 4-6:

Massie's remarks about the shooters were:  "Five, like Yurovsky, were Russians, six were Latvains.  Earlier,
two Latvians had refused to shoot the young women and Yurovsky had replaced them with two others."  He went on to say that Yourovsky with a Colt shot the Tsar...   Then Massie went on to say the others, each who had been appointed whom to shot, started shooting....  There is the claim all died in the basement room.

So, according to most who write about the night of 16/17 July 1918 there were eleven shooters?

Corrections?  Additions?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: IlyaBorisovich on June 18, 2004, 08:16:49 PM
Penny, was there any indication as to why Yurovsky chose to run the execution this way?  I mean, the much more simple and humane way to go about it would be the "nine grams to the back of the head," as, I thought, was the rule in the CHEKA.  It would seem they were asking for trouble with the haphazard way they went about it.  It just puzzles me why they couldn't have forseen the CF that ensued.  Were they that naive, or inexperienced?  It would make sense that the Ural Soviet, or Lenin (whoever ordered the murder, I don't know this off the top of my head) would want their most efficient people on this so there wouldn't be any mishaps.  The whole thing seems pretty slipshod for the political significance of the act, but maybe this is the basis of Rodger's argument.  None of it makes any sense.

Ilya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 19, 2004, 04:00:41 AM
AGRBear-

I can't quote and answer for reasons of length, so will clip the quote when finished-hopefully it doesn't mess up the format.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Cheka claims."  The Cheka never made any claims.  What we have are the statements of guards who heard about the shooting, or witnessed it, and the statements of those who participated (of whom only 3 were in the Cheka).

One problem is simply taking published works and what they say-for example, both Radzinsky and Massie either didn't know about or have access to Yurovsky's 1922 memoir and Victor Netrebin's statement, or the complete text of Kudrin's statement, and those of Isai Rodzinsky and Alexander Strekotin.  What we did was return to original primary accounts to determine the number of shooters and who they were.  I'm confident that they were 10-we lay out all the details, previously published versions, and arguments in "Fate of the Romanovs."

Radzinsky's photo of Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, et al., does NOT reflect a picture of ANY of those who shot that night.  The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter.

My point is: it's important not to turn to what Radzinsky said, or Massie said, but to what the original statements and memoirs say.  We may be at variance with "accepted" thought on the number and ID of the shooters, but we do so based firmly on the eyewitness accounts and statements, many previously unavailable to other historians.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 19, 2004, 05:07:07 AM
rskkiya
I think you are referring to Eugenia Smith, who came out with a "bio" in 1963 [volI, there never was another vol.]
She had a "reunion" with Golienewski [sic] the Polish/CIA agent who seemed to have several reunions with his siblings, all eventually denouncing the others as frauds.
One of the big US photo mags did a big spread on them at the time [LIFE,POST ?] and they quickly faded from their spotlight. I know the spy fellow died, having chaged his name to Romanov. Do not know whatever happened to Eugenia, but she is undoubetly dead by now as well.
Cheers,
Robert
p.s. please note that I said "I THINK' this is the case. I have their books here somewhere, but am going by memory.
RH
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 19, 2004, 08:11:40 AM
Mr. Hall ,

Thanks so much for your information about Ms. Smith & Mr G. I was simply being lazy and I ought to have looked it up myself, but luckily you saved me the effort. Ta!

Enjoy your summer holday!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on June 19, 2004, 12:24:53 PM
Hello Penny,

I´ve read that during the days following the murder there were warnings(?) from the bolsheviks , informing that a grand duchess had escaped and that there were many shootings in the city and searchings in hospitals looking for her.

Do you know anything else about this subject???

Thanks!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on June 19, 2004, 01:11:41 PM
Thanks Penny,

I´ll eagerly wait for your or Greg´s comments on this!

I read it not only in Speransky´s(of which i found by miracle a spanish edition from 1929) but also in Von Rathlef-Kleiman´s book.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?Greg King: >
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 01:46:33 PM
Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter<<

There are two lists?  The one I listed yesterday and the list you've mentioned.  Or are there others?

The list, of which you appear to have first hand knowledge,  which you and Penny Wilson have found in  records, letters, memoirs from some of these men,  you think /stated  should update / correct previous authors like Radzinsky.....  

[Sorry about mispellings Edward Radzinsky's name in my reply and for any other words then and in the future.]

Since I've not read FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  I assume all the old information gathered by earlier authors, officals and others hasn't been completely dismissed.  

Perhaps, if there were eleven,  the eleventh that might be aded to your list  was the second Medvedev mentioned on earlier lists....??

Reason I voiced "CHEKA claim" I assume Yourvsky, who was a CHEKA, claimed the credit of the execution,  for the CHEKA.  Did he not?  Far as I know the CHEKA were not just one ethnic group but a host of  different ethnic people who were  revolutionaries.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 02:08:00 PM
Antonio __P. Cabiller:  >>
I´ve read that during the days following the murder there were warnings(?) from the bolsheviks , informing that a grand duchess had escaped and that there were many shootings in the city and searchings in hospitals looking for her.<<

In earlier books, there are various claims that the bolsheviks / CHEKAs were looking for members of the  Royal Family who had escaped and trains were stopped and searched.  Summers and Mangold in THE FILE ON THE TSAR talk about various stories / theories  about the escape of one or  escapes of all....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 19, 2004, 02:08:29 PM
'Robert Hall' wrote that Goleneisky was a 'CIA' agent.

Where is your proof that he was a CIA agent?

His actions were consistent with that of a classic 'Trest' style double agent.  

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 19, 2004, 02:13:15 PM
Penny, you've said a mouthfull too.  If Yurovsky was so inexperienced and naive, why would the famously ruthless, methodical and motivated Bolsheviks have sent someone with such paltry skills and experience to do such an important job such as wiping out the entire Imperial Family?   ::)

Robespierre wasn't so careless when he went after the French Royal Family.  Why would the Bolsheviks, known admireres of the French Revolution, have left anything to chance, if chance is what it was?

Now, on to ballistics.  Is there a significant noise difference between the release of a couple of handgrenades, and some 100 rounds of high calibre bullets fired in an enclosed space?

Guess which would be the louder if the firing was occurring more or less in parallel?

The answer, of course is either a wash or the bullets would be louder, or a greater disturbance.   This is because while with hand grenades a couple of loud 'pops' would be heard, a continual barrage of weapons firing in an enclosed space over a period of a few minutes would probably be a greater disturbance, wouldn't you agree?

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on June 19, 2004, 02:26:32 PM
Brava!, to Penny for her thorough and articulate posts on this thread.

You posts here and your book indicate a strong sense of understanding not only of your subject but of the Russian population.  I do not believe anyone before has bothered to understand the psyche and motivations regarding the average Russian soldier or guard.

Such scholarship is not only commendable but important to this case.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?<<
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 02:34:48 PM
rskkiya : >> I am inclined to accept the DNA results and Dr Maple's statements regarding the execution. Surely he's not a Cheka agent<<

I do not know anything about Dr. Maple's. I assume he is not an agent.  My concern is the unknown evidence lost before all this became public  in 1991.

I, also, believe two bodies are missing.  Alexis and one of his sisters.  At this time, I can only assume the  bones  found were of Nicholas II, his wife, some of his children, the others ..... based on information given to us by those involved in the investigation.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 19, 2004, 02:50:22 PM
AGRbear, hello!
I agree with you about the missing bodies - alexie and one of the younger daughters - the generally agreed upon theory ( as I understand it ) is that two bodies were burned in a bonfire...exactly what happened to the charred remains I do not know...dumped? left? consumed by animals? Others here may have a better idea...

Rodger,
Mr G. was a polish agent who escaped to the west  with information for the CIA ( this is all in Massie's "The Romanovs- the Final Chapter" ). He later became a bit delusional, claiming to be the Tsaravich and demanding millions of dollars, pounds, rubles that  he imagined were his right ...He never seemed able to explain his lack of Hemophilia. Generally an odd duck from what little I know.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 19, 2004, 02:53:05 PM
I did not claim Golienewski was anything. HE did, as he wastrying to get asylum & recompense from the USA for "services rendered".  ! As far as I am concerned, he was a total fraud.
Dig him up and ask HIM to prove that nonsense. Or find his tacky little book, which I have burried here somewhere.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 19, 2004, 03:00:14 PM
To those who have written that they are 'inclined' to accept the DNA results: which DNA results are you referring to?

I should mention that there were actually several American teams that examined the remains.  There was also a group from the University of Colorado that refused to sign off on the conclusions drawn by the Russian Commission.

As far as Maples, Levine, et al are concerned, they admitted that their work was hampered by a lack of time, a lack of facilities, and no medical or dental records by which to form a proper reference to compare the remains.  In other words, they were working entirely under the assurances and instructions from the Russian Government that the remains were the Imperial Family.  From that flimsy assumption, they based their conclusions.  

This gross violation of methodogy is sufficient to invalidate the osteopaleoforensics as it relates to establishing the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 05:38:49 PM
While looking in the Masssie book to find information on Dr. Maples,  I found the following pages of 51-53 very interesting.  Massie stated  the Russians were offered one or both of our two primary US government teams on forensic and pathology  plus useage of our labs, instead the Russians chose Flordia U.'s forensic anthropologist Dr. Maples.  Flordia U.  didn't have the capability of doing mitochonrial DNA nor the use of the state-of-the -art equipment used by our own FBI.  Is this true?  If this is true, why did the Russians chose the labs which had less than the best?

I am not saying Maples isn't good at what he does.
Also, Maples apparently had a  good team.  Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City; Levin, the codirector with the New York State Police who had idenitifed the remains of  Josef Mengele in Brazil; and, Oaks who Massie claimed is one of our nation's leading hair and fiber specialists, also, from the New York State Police Crime Lab.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 19, 2004, 06:08:53 PM
I don't think competence is the issue.  There is no doubting the skills of Maples and his associates.  There was at least one other American forensics team that had observed the remains, but refused to sign off on their identity.

From my understanding, the job given to the forensics teams was not to identify the remains as that of the Imperial Family, because that was a forgone conclusion, but to confirm individual identities.


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?Greg King: >
Post by: Greg_King on June 19, 2004, 06:19:33 PM
AGRBear-

There is only one authentic list of shooters-again, I refer you to the fact that Radzinsky was working without benefit of several important sources-including the memoirs of Netrebin, who was himself a shooter (thus Netrebin does not appear in Radzinsky's list).

Over the years, as we write in "The Fate of the Romanovs," there have been about 20 perambulations of supposed lists of shooters, all based on guess-work and inference.  We believe, based on the original primary documentation, that ours is correct, since it comes from those involved and from original material, without extrapolation.

Our list includes both Medvedevs-Michael Medvedev, known by his Party name of Kudrin, and Paul Medvedev.  

The execution was detailed, ordered, and orchestrated under the direction of the Ural Regional Soviet, with the participation of the Cheka, but not ordered or run by the latter.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 19, 2004, 06:28:00 PM
Quote
While looking in the Masssie book to find information on Dr. Maples,  I found the following pages of 51-53 very interesting.  Massie stated  the Russians were offered one or both of our two primary US government teams on forensic and pathology  plus useage of our labs, instead the Russians chose Flordia U.'s forensic anthropologist Dr. Maples.  Flordia U.  didn't have the capability of doing mitochonrial DNA nor the use of the state-of-the -art equipment used by our own FBI.  Is this true?  If this is true, why did the Russians chose the labs which had less than the best?

I am not saying Maples isn't good at what he does.
Also, Maples apparently had a  good team.  Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City; Levin, the codirector with the New York State Police who had idenitifed the remains of  Josef Mengele in Brazil; and, Oaks who Massie claimed is one of our nation's leading hair and fiber specialists, also, from the New York State Police Crime Lab.

AGRBear  


We spoke to both Maples and members of his team, and also to Dr. Rodriquez, who was the first tapped to go, about what actually happened and why one team won out over the over.

There was never any thought given to DNA testing on the part of the Americans-that was to be left up to the Russians to work out.

What happened was a conflict between Moscow and Ekaterinburg in regard to the US team.

Cathy Oakes is indeed a world-famous hair and fiber specialist (and is now married to Dr. Levine) but she had little to do in Ekaterinburg as the Moscow team refused to provide her with any samples or even to tell her what their test results had been.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 06:35:35 PM
Massie mentioned some of the imposters in The Romanovs, The Final Chapter in Part II.
1.  Nadezhda Ivanova Vasilyeva died  in 1971 in a asylum in Riga
2.  Two women, real names uknown, however, know as Marie and Anastasia who died in the Urals in 1964
3. Filipp G.  Semyonov who was said to have hemophilia and claimed to have been Alexis
4. Marga Boodts who lived in Italy and claimed to be Olga
5. Larisa Feodorovna Tudor died 1927 and buried in Kent, England who claimed she was Tatiana.
6.  A man who  lived in Madrid as Prince Alexis d'Anjou whom some said was Alex Brimeyer.... died in Spain
7. Man, name unknown, claimed to be Alexis and lived in Ulm, Germany
8. Alexi Tammet-Romanov died in 1977 in Vancover, British Columbia
9.  Prince Alexis Romanov who died in 1986 and had lived in Scottsdale, Arizonia
10.  Another Alexis was said to have been assassinated in Chicago by the KGB...
11 & 12.   Two people who claimed to be Alexis and Anastasia met in USA and gained some attention by the press... names unknown
13.  Goleniewski died in 1993..
14. Eugenia Smith lived in Illinois then R.I. and Massie said was still living in 1995
15.  others ???
16. Anna Anderson (Manahan), who always had the most attention, died 1984, and whom many believe was a Polish peasant

Anyone have any other names?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 19, 2004, 06:41:22 PM
We have a thread here on this very board dedicated to this question.  Feel free to peruse at your leisure.  ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 19, 2004, 06:45:03 PM
Greg King >> Cathy Oakes is indeed a world-famous hair and fiber specialist (and is now married to Dr. Levine) but she had little to do in Ekaterinburg as the Moscow team refused to provide her with any samples or even to tell her what their test results had been. <<

Do we know, now, what the test result is?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Vera_Figner on June 19, 2004, 10:14:02 PM
15.  others ???

Anyone have any other names?

AGRBear
[/quote]

AGRBear,
Why yes, I do! I would be happy to tell you all about it. You probably will not be terribly surprised. Due to the  "seriousness" of the individual in question, the information is not appropriate for the thread that was recommended to you.  The truth of the matter, however, will give you such a laugh.

And it will really make you wonder about some things.

Pakka,
Vera
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 20, 2004, 03:03:18 AM
Rodger-

I think perhaps the answers to your questions are resolved by looking at the situation of the Ural Regional Soviet and Ekaterinburg.  The Ural Soviet wasn't a tight, "famously ruthless, methodical, and motivated" group of Bolsheviks-they were hanging on to power by a thread, faced with evacuating the Urals, and caught up in in-fighting and conspiracies that summer of 1918.

As a member of the Cheka, and a more fiercely determined man than Avdayev (who flat out refused to go along with the idea of killing them and even tried to object before the event-hence his removal as commandant), Yurovsky was perhaps the best they could get.  They did have people around with experience in murder-like Ermakov-but the last thing they wanted, after the breakdown in security and thefts-was to put an irresponsible person in charge.  Yurovsky may not have been the ideal choice but he was their only choice given the circumstances.

You have to remember, too, that before his appointment Yurovsky was full of the usual revolutionary bluster and revenge, which may have gone a long way in convincing them he would be up to the task.  After he spent time among the Romanovs, as he wrote, he had a different view and this made the murder more difficult, but he carried out as his "revolutionary obligation" if you will.

I seriously doubt that any of the men in the Ural Regional Soviet had much idea about the French Revolution or Robespierre with the exception of Peter Voikov-they were not, on the whole, highly educated nor politically experienced or widely read.  They were men caught in the middle of the Civil War fighting for their survival and convinced that Moscow didn't know what was going on.

As to the issue of bombs versus guns: during the captivity in Ekaterinburg, there were a number of shots fired accidentally by guards-none of which got any attention in the city, whereas when one of the guards dropped a grenade the story about a "bomb" at the IH spread like wildfire, with tales that Alexei had died "of fright."  Having no practical experience, I'm sure Yurovsky thought guns were the quickest and safest option-especially given throwing bombs on the first floor, with exposed walls and an open window, versus a volley of guns in a semi-basement room where the walls were twice as thick as above.  He expected it to go easily-they'd be shot, they'd die, and probably no more than two dozen bullets fired.  But with no experience he didn't anticipate what would happen.

Incidentally, of the 103 possible shots, we calculated-based on wounds, statements, memoirs, forensics, and recovered evidence-that something like only 50 or so were fired-half were not, owing to the smoke and the chaos.  The only witness who recalled hearing the shots remembered them as "indistinct" and "muffled" owing to the thickness of the basement walls.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?I had asked ea
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2004, 12:04:25 PM
I had asked earlier about the bullets found in the shallow grave where the bones were found by Avdonin and Ryabov.  I found on p. 40 of Massie's Bk. that fourteen bullets were found.   What data has been released about the bullets?  Was there any that could have been shot from the Colt 45?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on June 20, 2004, 12:25:45 PM
AGRBear,

   I think that some of those bullets were meant to open up containers of sulfuric acid - intended to further disfigure the bodies and to limit the stench of decomposition. Some of the bullets may have already  been in certain corpses.
    I cannot confirm whether sulfuric acid actually affects cadaverine or putrosine...but it ought to have damaged some of the flesh on the victims.
    I dont know where those bullets are now, or what tests might have been done on them...
(Please be charitable with me as I am no expert about this!)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2004, 05:09:18 PM
Greg King and Penny Wilson:
Just bought your book through Amazon.com so I  can have an informed conversation about what you've written about the Romanovs lives and final days plus the dectective work of those dealing with the remains found in the shallow grave...  Hope to get it end of this week.  

By the way,  what label have you / others placed on the shallow grave near the Isetsk factory which was uncovered by Avdonin and Ryabov in May of 1979?   The reason I ask is because it was easy to remember the Four Brother's Mine as the place where people from 1918 to 1991 thought the royal family ashes were  held....  The "new grave"  isn't a good label. In fact it no longer is a grave but an empty piece of ground with a cross.....  The Koptyaki Pit  isn't quite accurate.  The empty grave near the Isetsk factory isn't a label people will remember.....  This may seem an odd question but I've been calling it the "shallow grave" and this doesn't really seem right either.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 21, 2004, 06:48:19 AM
Quote
Greg King >> Cathy Oakes is indeed a world-famous hair and fiber specialist (and is now married to Dr. Levine) but she had little to do in Ekaterinburg as the Moscow team refused to provide her with any samples or even to tell her what their test results had been. <<

Do we know, now, what the test result is?

AGRBear


If I recall, there are two conflicting versions (not surprising in this case).  In the official report it was stated that no results could be derived because the hair was too damaged to conduct any adequate testing; but I recall that at the 1993 Conference in Ekaterinburg this question was repeatedly asked and finally, if my translation was any good, Dr. Svetlana Gurtovaya-who was the Russian serological and fiber expert, DID say that they had obtained certain results like blood group types from some of the hairs.  The actual information would be in a transcript I have, but couldn't possibly locate now without some intensive searches.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?I had asked ea
Post by: Greg_King on June 21, 2004, 06:55:27 AM
Quote
I had asked earlier about the bullets found in the shallow grave where the bones were found by Avdonin and Ryabov.  I found on p. 40 of Massie's Bk. that fourteen bullets were found.   What data has been released about the bullets?  Was there any that could have been shot from the Colt 45?

AGRBear


Twenty five bullets were actually recovered from the Koptyaki grave.  They were a mixture of Mauser, Nagant, Colt, Browning, and Smith & Wesson bullets-I can't recall the exact rundown off the top of my head, though we put it in the "Atlantis" issue on material cut from the book for reasons of space.  There was only one Colt used that night-Yurovsky's 1911 .45-caliber pistol, with a clip of seven bullets.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 21, 2004, 07:00:12 AM
Quote
Greg King and Penny Wilson:
Just bought your book through Amazon.com so I  can have an informed conversation about what you've written about the Romanovs lives and final days plus the dectective work of those dealing with the remains found in the shallow grave...  Hope to get it end of this week.  

By the way,  what label have you / others placed on the shallow grave near the Isetsk factory which was uncovered by Avdonin and Ryabov in May of 1979?   The reason I ask is because it was easy to remember the Four Brother's Mine as the place where people from 1918 to 1991 thought the royal family ashes were  held....  The "new grave"  isn't a good label. In fact it no longer is a grave but an empty piece of ground with a cross.....  The Koptyaki Pit  isn't quite accurate.  The empty grave near the Isetsk factory isn't a label people will remember.....  This may seem an odd question but I've been calling it the "shallow grave" and this doesn't really seem right either.

AGRBear



Feel free to ask questions as you read.

As to the grave, we call it the grave, or the Koptyaki grave-it was (other than a short period) the only grave involved in the story.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 21, 2004, 12:16:53 PM
Greg
Meanwhile, more questions with my other books as references:

In the hard cover edition, a map, following page 142 showed the "Ekaterinburg and alleged route to Four Brothers" where at that time the CHEKA and earlier books claim was the buriel grave.

According to what they found the route took them from the House of Special Purpose  gate on Vozenesensky Ave, turned right on Vozesensky St. and right on Glavnaya Streeet which was the road to Kotyaki village.  They show the Verkh-Isetsk Factory and show the train tracks line to Station No. 1. [ There isn't a mark showing distances.]    Also, their map shows the Four Brothers mine farther to the north and the tracks from Perm to Station No. 2.  According to Massie the Koptyaki grave was about 700 feet from the factory.  

How far from town is the factory?

Which track is closest to the Koptyaki grave?

Was is it east or west of the road to Koptaki Road?  

I guess I should ask if this map is  accurate?  

Did you conclude that one/ two or done of the bodies ever were thrown into the pit at the Four Brother's Mine area?  Or was just their clothing and other items that were destroyed at this spot?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on June 21, 2004, 01:23:10 PM
To Greg and Penny,

I am reading your book (for the second time, first time around it was skimming, due to my schedule) and I can't say enough how much I am impressed not only by your research but your strong narrative.  

I must admit I do have questions from time to time, however.

One that has been occupying my mind the past couple of days is the murder scene, particularly as it concerns Alexei.

On page 309 in your book (and which is repeated in a few other books), Alexei is described as remaining seated on the chair in the center of the room following the murder of his father, while his mother and sisters huddle together in a corner.

Considering how precious he was to all of them, it's odd that he would be left sitting there. Surely Alexandra would have been happy to die trying to save him.

Various thoughts might cross a reader's mind when reading this passage:  1. Alexandra and the others were afraid to try to get to Alexei from where they stood, 2. they were prevented from attempting to approach him, 3. The women figured that the killers were only after the Tsar and the heir and the best they could hope for would be to stay out of the way.
4.  That part of the story was inaccurately recorded, perhaps intentionally, or just the typical and maybe most accurate -- human memory is simply not very reliable.

I would really enjoy hearing any further thoughts you have on this topic -- I am thinking that perhaps more information about this may have been cut from the book and I have not yet read the Atlantis issue that includes the cut material.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on June 21, 2004, 08:35:59 PM
Quote
The entire execution took less than ten minutes.


Hello Penny,

I´m quite confussed about that phrase, since after reading the book i had the thought that it took much more time. I mean all that about the bodies being carried away in blankets, and then discovering some of the girls were still alive, and so on...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on June 21, 2004, 09:45:53 PM
AGRBear:

Again, I'll not quote but try to answer the questions.

The Route: It's conjecture as to what it was, and there have been several variations-no one that night left any account of how they got to the Koptyaki Road.  We think it was probably the most direct-right onto Voznesensky Prospekt, right on Voznesensky Lane to Lower Iset Pond, left onto Yakova to Moskovskaya Prospekt, right and across the bridge and then on to Isetsky Road.

Verkh-Isetsk is about 2 miles from the former edge of Ekaterinburg; the actual Koptyaki grave was another 8-9 miles up Koptyaki Road at Pig's Meadow, near the old Grade Crossing No. 187.  It isn't anywhere near the factory.

The closest rail line to the grave was the Kungursk spur across the meadow at No. 187; the Perm line crossed at No. 803 near the entry to the forest.  The grave was on the southwestern edge of the meadow.

There were two open pits at the Four Brothers, and two shafts-a narrow one 36 feet deep, and a wider one 9 feet deep.  When they threw the corpses in, Yurovsky assumed both shafts were the same depth; after half of them had gone in, they started to pile up, and were no longer covered by the water-it was "very shallow" as he recalled-no more than 10 feet deep.  The water he said "scarcely covered" the first few bodies.  The rest were thrown in anyway, though, and Yurovsky attempted to blow up the shaft with grenades, then when that failed he covered them over with brush and dirt and returned to Ekaterinburg to report.  He returned later to exhume them.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on June 22, 2004, 12:59:08 PM
Thank you for the clarification, Penny!  It must have been one of those surreal moments where time flew and yet stood still, for all involved. And of course, none of us know how we would react in any extremely high stress situation, let alone something as horrific as the scene in question.

And again, though I really am so impressed with how you and Greg went over the research and accounts, minute by minute, (second by second?) and wove together what is (for me anyway) the most clearly articulated account of what most likely happened, it must have been a very painful thing to write.

The 35 minute episode (leading up to the 3 a.m. departure) seems astonishing, but when one thinks about how the murderers must have been terrified over what they had done and so eager to somehow make the results disappear, I can totally believe they moved very quickly.

Also, the portrayal of the guards and soldiers, I can't say enough good things about this. It must be a first in Romanov studies literature.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 22, 2004, 02:06:42 PM
Greg:<<Incidentally, of the 103 possible shots, we calculated-based on wounds, statements, memoirs, forensics, and recovered evidence-that something like only 50 or so were fired-half were not, owing to the smoke and the chaos.>>

Penny<< ten minutes>>

There was mention of 103 possible shots by  ten, maybe eleven, shooters.  And, now, I've read  it took "ten minutes" to kill all those people who didn't want to be killed....

Is this really possible?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 22, 2004, 02:15:24 PM
Greg and Penny

Are you telling us the bodies were taken first to the Four Brother's Mines  then taken out of the mines and reburied at the Koptryaki grave?  If so, was it the same night / early morning of 17 July 1918?  

AGBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: CuriousOne on June 22, 2004, 04:11:17 PM
"Atlantis" issue? Could you tell us where we could find this? Sorry if this is a repeat but I'm new to this discussion.
    Curious One
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: CuriousOne on June 22, 2004, 06:16:14 PM
Quote
To Greg and Penny,

4.  -- human memory is simply not very reliable.



My husband graduated from the School of Criminology at UC, and I recall the  one day he came home and was laughing about something that happen in one of his classes.  It seems, one of the profs had set up an event which quickly occured in the class room and those involved left as quickly as they had arrived in class.  The prof's next question was simple, the students were to describe the people who had been involved in the event.  My husband found it amazing as to how many descriptions there were of the  people who were part of the event and, also,   the number of people involved was debated....
    Curious One  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2004, 03:16:56 PM
Atlantis Magazine information can be found on the following URL: http://www.atlantis-magazine.com/

Still reading Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson.  Very interesting. And I will have questions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2004, 03:30:48 PM
Quote
To those who have written that they are 'inclined' to accept the DNA results: which DNA results are you referring to?

I should mention that there were actually several American teams that examined the remains.  There was also a group from the University of Colorado that refused to sign off on the conclusions drawn by the Russian Commission.

As far as Maples, Levine, et al are concerned, they admitted that their work was hampered by a lack of time, a lack of facilities, and no medical or dental records by which to form a proper reference to compare the remains.  In other words, they were working entirely under the assurances and instructions from the Russian Government that the remains were the Imperial Family.  From that flimsy assumption, they based their conclusions.  

This gross violation of methodogy is sufficient to invalidate the osteopaleoforensics as it relates to establishing the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains.


There was a "gross violation" of the Koptyaki grave by the hurried process of yanking out bones from a "crime scene".  My husband says I watch too many CSI shows on tv.  I for one am glad the Russian  officals brought in Maples or we might never have known what he and his staff discovered.  And, if they had been allowed proper time,  who knows what else they would have found.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 09, 2004, 12:43:08 PM
AGRBear,

I agree with you! The excavation was certainly not done under optimal conditions...
Nevertheless I am still waiting for "Rodger" to kindly explain the DNA problems....I don't know if there is any DNA left that we can identify as specifically Marie's or Olga's or Nicholas's alone, to compair with the bones...

Rodger?

R.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2004, 03:51:05 PM
Did any Russia official explain what the rush was to pull up  the bones  and rush them to where ever it was they placed them for farther inspection and storage?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 09, 2004, 08:41:02 PM
AGRBear

   A. Advonin and Geli Ryabov were able with the help of others to figure out (on the quiet) where the bodies might have been buried ... They went excavating and found some skulls which they examined on the spot, and then swore an oath to reveal the spot to the world only when they felt that the time was right...

  You say that since the 1980s, you've been reading a lot about all this.....yet I am very surprised that you seem to not have read Massie's "The Romanovs- The Final Chapter." This is all spelled out there...  


Hmmmm. :-/

R.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 10, 2004, 08:17:10 AM
Something that I thought was of note: in one of those outrageous books which tries to prove the Romanovs were rescued, the author brings up an interesting point, which is that Yurovsky is said to be awake for like 72 hours or something (throughout the whole execution/burial/re-burial ordeal) and that it would have been unrealistic.

I don't really think that bears much significance, though.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 10, 2004, 10:06:57 AM
Abby,

Good point about Yurovsky...
However, he had to get the remains dealt with and he didn't want to waste any time until it was done...I have been awake for 72 hours in the past and while it certainly doesn't make you the best of company - it is quite possible to fuction... Adrenaline can do "wonderful" things... ::)

R.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 10, 2004, 11:45:03 AM
I agree. Having done it myself, it may explain why some of the actions taken did not make much sense as well as the carelessness...plus all the vodka consumed...
Robert
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 11, 2004, 05:57:48 PM
Quote
AGRBear

   You say that since the 1980s, you've been reading a lot about all this.....yet I am very surprised that you seem to not have read Massie's "The Romanovs- The Final Chapter." This is all spelled out there...  


Hmmmm. :-/

R.



I have read The Romanovs, The Final Chapter by Robert K. Massie.
A book I recommend to others.

It has been some time since I read the book, so,  I pulled if off my book shelf and flipped the pages.  I am not sure where the entry is to which you are referring.

I did find this:


Quote
AGRBear

    A. Advonin and Geli Ryabov were able with the help of others to figure out (on the quiet) where the bodies might have been buried ... They went excavating and found some skulls which they examined on the spot, and then swore an oath to reveal the spot to the world only when they felt that the time was right...
Hmmmm. :-/

R.



But, I didn't find where it voiced my question which was: Why did the Russians  pull out the bones so  quickly in 1991 and not take a real effort to study the area as if it were a crime scene.  If not a crime scene than a place of historical importance to Russian history.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 12, 2004, 12:24:02 PM
I read in 'The file on the Tsar' Sokolov identified the bones as human, but modern opinion suggests they came from animals.  They were brought to Europe, but later vanished... So, what bones did they do a DNA on if they vanished?? ???
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 12, 2004, 04:46:59 PM
Hi Candice! I beleive you are talking about the bones found by Sokolov. These were different than the bones found in 1979 in a mass grave by Russians Avdonin and Ryabov. When investigator Sokolov arrived at the mine in 1919 he found some bones beleived to be around a bonfire site and put them in a box with some other remains he found, and took the box to Grand Duke Nicholas Nicholaevich (Nicholas II's uncle) but he did not want them. And he took the box to Dowager Empress Marie, but beleiving her son was still alive, she refused to look at anything to do with their death scene. So the box was put in the hands of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and, according to Robert Massie (I am getting all this from "The Final Chapter") they still have the box today. Others say that the box has dissappeared altogether. But Massie says that the Church won't let anyone look in the box, and only a few people have seen it.

These are the bones that "disappeared". DNA tests were conducted on the bones found in 1979-- nine skeletons found in a mass grave in the Koptyaki wood.

Interestingly, if that box does contain human remains from a site apart from the mass grave, they could be the remains of bodies destroyed in a bonfire...Alexei and Anastasia's. But if the church has the box, they should hand it over to investigators!!!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 12, 2004, 10:32:26 PM
Ohh really? I didn't know Kyril got the human parts. Massie doesn't mention that in his book. Well couldn't they do DNA testing on those, then? To see if they were related to the bones found in the mass grave? (Ideally speaking)

Penny do you think they could be remains of the bodies that Yurovsky claimed he tried to burn?
(Alexandra and Alexei...by mistake Demidova and Alexei...later Anastasia and Alexei)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 13, 2004, 08:11:48 AM
Ohh so those bones weren't human?
So Kyril might have buried some chickens?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 13, 2004, 04:36:54 PM
Abby, I like that about Kyrill buring some chickens, that is funny!  

I do belief  that a couple of the children did survive.  I believe also that the church and others involved in the mystery know the whereabouts and are protecting the survivers and I don't blame them.  

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on July 13, 2004, 04:44:49 PM
Personally, I can't see how any of them did survive, although I would love it if one of them did.  Yes, there was a lot of chaos in the basement when the family was killed, but with the number of bullets shot, I just can't see anyone living through it.  Even if one of two survived the initial onslaught, they would have died soon after, or killed if discovered.  And even if one of the guards took pitty on a survivor and wanted to help, what could he do?  If he hid her in the forest until he could come back for her, chances are she would have died in the mean time due to blood loss.

JMHO

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2004, 02:50:12 PM
Try to think out of the box which so many historians have placed us.

Let's take one of the first eye witnesses, a Whites' investigators, Capt. Malinevsky of the Officers' Commission who is reported as having said  [p. 69 of File on the Tsar by Summers and Mangold]:  "As a result of my work on this case I became convinced that the imperial family was alive.  It appeared to me that the Bolsheviks had shot someone in the room in order to simulate the murder of the imperial family...."

There were 5 bodies of Austrian guards found near the Four Brothers mine by the Whites [p. 166 File On the Tsar].  Could  these soldiers been the real victims and it was their bodies taken away in the truck that night of 16 / 17 July 1918 from the Ipatiev House?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: kensue on July 20, 2004, 03:19:40 PM
AGRBear,

What would be the point in the Bolshies saving the family?  After more than 80 years, we never heard credible evidence that Moscow was holding them to use as pawns with the British or the Allies in general.  Lenin made it very clear that he wanted to wipe out the entire Romanov clan and he came close to doing it.

kensue
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 20, 2004, 03:36:50 PM
I am halfway through the "The Fate of the Romanovs", which is in favor of the murder theory, and I just finished "The File on the Tsar", which, as everyone knows, tries to prove that they escaped.. and I have to say that I really can't make up my mind as to what happened, and the main thing is that the bodies were lying in that grave for so long, and being tampered with, so that any kind of alterations in DNA could have occured. And there are so many eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen the Romanovs after their "death". However these can be dispelled as wishful thinkers.. As I read in one book (I forget which--there's so many!) a Perm resident who claimed to have seen Anastasia and her brother in town was later debunked when the "grand duchess" and "tsarevich" turned out to be a peasant couple...
"sightings" such as this one probably ran rampant in confusion-stricken Russia.
I would like to beleive that they lived. I would.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2004, 04:22:10 PM
Quote
AGRBear,

What would be the point in the Bolshies saving the family?  After more than 80 years, we never heard credible evidence that Moscow was holding them to use as pawns with the British or the Allies in general.  Lenin made it very clear that he wanted to wipe out the entire Romanov clan and he came close to doing it.

kensue


Is it  possible they were using Nicholas II as a bargining chip to use for the sale of guns which was being set up by individuals who hoped to make a huge profit at both ends of this deal ....  ???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2004, 04:32:51 PM
So AGRBear...

You think that the soldiers were the real bodies found and that the IF was secreted away...Hmmm- well a bunch of soldiers with some of them being middle aged women and girls in their early twenties...Very Odd Soldiers dont you think...especially soldiers with the same DNA as Prince Phillip...

Well I guess thats thinking out of the box...

R
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: RomanovFan on July 20, 2004, 05:44:24 PM
Quote

We know for certain that Tsarevitch Alexei was one of the missing bodies.  Given his hemophilia, everyone concedes that he could not have survived long.  A fall at Bieloviezhe and later events at Spala nearly killed him...What would bullets and beatings and stabbings do? .


I read in Peter Kurth's book (TSAR: The Lost World of N & A) that after the guards stopped shooting, Alexei was heard moaning on the floor, so he did survive the actual firing, but I also read the Yurovsky shot him in the ear at point blank range twice. Do you think that's what really killed the Tsarevitch or do you think he bled to death? I mean, if someone is shot in the head from that close up, wouldn't a person die instantly?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 20, 2004, 06:09:37 PM
You misunderstood my point. I believe Yurovsky shot Alexei in the head and killed him, as he reported. My other point was to say "IF" Yurovsky lied and had not shot him in the head, Alexei STILL would have died very soon afterwards as a result of the other injuries and his hemophilia, so the fact that his body is missing can not be taken as very stong evidence that he 'survived'.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2004, 11:16:34 PM
Quote
So AGRBear...

You think that the soldiers were the real bodies found and that the IF was secreted away...Hmmm- well a bunch of soldiers with some of them being middle aged women and girls in their early twenties...Very Odd Soldiers dont you think...especially soldiers with the same DNA as Prince Phillip...

Well I guess thats thinking out of the box...

R


I'm not sure what you mean about a bunch of soldiers being middle aged women and girls.  

And,  you are assuming this is what I think what happen.  Since I wasn't there I don't know what happen.  All I can do is ask questions and mull over various theories.

I believe what I asked was a theory which has Yurovsky and his guards killing  5 other guards in the basement instead of  Nicholas II and the others.  And, it was these five bodies which were taken to the Four Brother's Mine that early morning of 17 July 1918.

Since I stated the pages in  Summers and Mangold's book with a similar theory,  I'm not the only person who thinks this might have been possible.

And, this is thinking "outside the box" which I hope is allowed on this thread.

I do believe this thead asks:  Did any of the Romanovs survive?

Soooooo,   if they did, how was that possible?  The obvious answer:  No one killed them that night.  So, I'm asking questions to see if that was possible.

As for Alexei, if he was not killed that night, I believe there were some hemophiliacs who survived into their twenties so he may have.  Since transfusions were coming into their own during WWI,  perhaps,  he might have lived a few years longer those who had died before him.  Don't jump all over me because that was just a wild thought  ;D.  Just let us know if this was possible.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: ken on July 21, 2004, 09:11:20 AM
Hello all.  My name is Ken and I have only viewed this site with it's boards since last week and I am very impressed.  I have learned a great deal and you all have opened my mind to numerous possibilties as to the royal family.
I have often thought, if I may add my two cents, that after the guards used their bayonets, that there was a discovery of diamonds and of course the frenzy to find as many jewels as possible on the bodies. What if......just if......a soldier or 2 .....decided that there was even more on the bodies (whether in body cavities or in the clothing) and decided to move or take the bodies. that would account for soldiers searching trains and 2 bodies missing from the remains.
It could come down to greed among a soldier or two that simply was awe struck at riches he could never hope for in his wildest dreams. I would like to think more along romantic lines such as the soldier who took Anastasia supposedly, but I feel human nature could have had a part.
thnx for letting me share with you all.
kenny
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 21, 2004, 09:29:33 AM
Hi! Nice to have you.
I think that's a very good theory on what happened, and I've never heard that spin before. Do you think that the soldiers would search the trains for Anastasia when they knew she was already dead? I doubt they would let a dead body on a train.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 21, 2004, 10:05:20 AM
Two points here.
1. for Agr.  According to research into the history of Blood transfusions, the first available technology in WWI was only in the British Army.  Safe and effective transfusion technology did not arrive in Russia until the late 1920s.

2. Read the Yurovski account, Ken.  The instant Yurovski found out there were valuables, he took immediate control over the bodies and made it clear that any soldier looting the bodies would be shot. The bodies were watched closely and not fully searched until out of the house and at the mine.  Penny and Greg conclude after exhaustive research that this is the only possible point in the known sequence of events for any body to go missing. See their book for the full explanation
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 21, 2004, 03:00:25 PM
Is it Marie or Anastasia in the grave debate:

How did the scientists know which bones went together, when all of the skeletons were haphazardly laying in the grave, all mismatched? Did they have to painstakingly go through each tiny bone and determine how old it was, etc., to find out which skeleton it went to? When the American scientists decided that all of the skeletons were too old (developed) to be Anastasia, how did they know that they didn't get the bones mixed up...it seems like they got all the heights of the Grand Duchesses wrong to me. They claimed that there was a 5"5, a 5"5 1/2 and a 5'7". This is kind of weird, because if Olga was 5'5" definitley, and we know that Tatiana was the tallest, that leaves Marie at 5'5 1/2"...but we know that Marie was closer to Tatiana's height than Olga's (by pictures). This is interesting...because Anastasia was only about 5'2". So I think maybe some guesstimations were assumed in the exact height of the duchesses. It would probably be very hard to determine heights on old decayed bones anyway.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2004, 03:41:32 PM
Welcom Ken.  Always nice to hear a new voices and new theories.

Quote
Two points here.
1. for Agr.  According to research into the history of Blood transfusions, the first available technology in WWI was only in the British Army.  Safe and effective transfusion technology did not arrive in Russia until the late 1920s.
2.....
explanation


I know it was used in Russia by several doctors in Odessa during WWI.  Perhaps they acquired it from a British doctor.... A medical paper.... There were British ships in all the eastern ports....  So,  this theory is possible.

Quote
Is it Marie or Anastasia in the grave debate:
...it seems like they got all the heights of the Grand Duchesses wrong to me.


Some of the girls may have grown.  Anatasia certainly must have.  So, the height is guess work unless you have all the girls bones.

I'm not sure any of the photographs taken in Ekaterinburg can show the heights of the girls.  Does someone know if there is?

:) AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 21, 2004, 03:50:54 PM
Odessa is not Ekaterinburg under Bolshevik control. Also, even at that time, they had no means of keeping the donated blood from clotting in less than two days and cross matching was still not great. I find it a VERY long stretch to think that the equipment, knowledge and trained doctors were to be found in Ekaterinburg who could do this without Bolshevik knowledge. Simply because something is "possible" does not make it "probable".
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 21, 2004, 04:11:46 PM
AGRBear,  I think you could have something.  After all we're not talking about just an after thought of an escape.  If there had been a planned rescue and there was.  I think all the necessary facilities would have been taken on board and highly specialized doctors would also have been at the ready.  This whole possible rescue could only have been carried out by the highest intelligence organization, funded by the most important and richest people in the world.  Anything is possible!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2004, 04:29:21 PM
I'm not sure what the distance between Ekaterinburg and Odessa have to do with the knowledge of blood transfusions....

And, too, there were other means of transportation other than horse, carriage, by foot or train.  I believe there was mention of an airplane flying over the Ipatiev House which made everyone nervous.  

If I remember correctly,  there were units of White Army Fly Boys in that area.   I think I saw some of their photographs   in the Russian museum in San Francisco.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2004, 04:36:58 PM
Quote
....after the guards used their bayonets, that there was a discovery of diamonds and of course the frenzy to find as many jewels as possible on the bodies. What if......just if......a soldier or 2 .....decided that there was even more on the bodies (whether in body cavities or in the clothing) and decided to move or take the bodies. that would account for soldiers searching trains and 2 bodies missing from the remains.
kenny


Yurovsky's statement tells us that he made sure every last jewel was recovered.  Sometimes me thinks he tries tooooo hard to  cover his tracks.  So,  you might be right.

What if we  take this one step farther.  What if the jewels were scattered in the court yard and this caused a flurry of greed,  while the Romanovs escaped?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 21, 2004, 04:51:29 PM
I think the children must have witnessed the murder of their parents and some of the guards that liked the children helped them escape to the British embassy which was very close by.  Yurovsky I'm sure was in on the escape.  He was a dark horse. I read that after 1918 Yurovsky dissappeared.  Only after several years did he return to Moscow, only to slip out of the Bolshevik's grasp once again.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 21, 2004, 08:47:06 PM
Agrbear...

So this is the famous tale from Mr XXX?  That somehow a woman with crippling sciatica who could barely walk without pain, her husband carrying their sick boy, and their four daughters just through threw some jewels at that their guards and then scurried off? Where to ... Cloud Cuckoo land?

R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2004, 10:04:22 PM
Just another theory.    
 
By the way,  do you have any idea how long it would take for Nicholas II, who may have been carrying Alexei,  Alexandra who could have been carried, four girls and their 5 rescuers to reach several cars outside a gate from their living quarters?

Quote
... Yurovsky I'm sure was in on the escape.  He was a dark horse. I read that after 1918 Yurovsky dissappeared.  Only after several years did he return to Moscow, only to slip out of the Bolshevik's grasp once again.  


p. 509 in Fate of the Romanovs:  "After fleeing Ekaterinburg on July 19, 1918, Yurovsky had disappeared from view."  They tell us more: "In fact, Yurovsky had gone to Moscow.....late in 1919 he was transferred back to Ekaterinburg...as chairman of the Ural Regional Cheka."  [CHEKA]  His office was in the Ipatiev House.  

On p. 511 Fate of the Romanovs: King and Wilson talk about his daughter Rimma who was  "...arrested on suspicion of counter-revolutionary activity and sent to a Soviet labor camp...." for 25 years.

Gee, do you think this was because of something Rimma did or was it a warning to Yurovsky and the others who might think about telling the truth of what happen?

Yurovsky had heart problems and ulsers and d. 2 Aug. 1938 [farther down on p. 511].

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 06:55:25 PM
What did Yurovsky finally die from and where did he die?  I thought he went to the US?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 22, 2004, 06:57:11 PM
I think he died of throat cancer? Or maybe that was Ermakov...I forget. I could look it up.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 22, 2004, 07:21:21 PM
Ok Candice and Agrbear...I want to get this clear...

    The premise is -- that somehow someone was able to help the RF escape...
    Who ? Noone seems sure...
    When did this daring escapade occure -- in the daytime or at night?
     Did NONE of the revolutionary guards think to shoot at this wayward band as they all scurried off...
     So both Alexandra and Alexie would have been carried ...(this would have been a real trick as any sudden or jerky movement would have caused him to start hemoraging again... :-/) while everyone else just ran?
     What about Demidova or the Cook or the Footman?  Where they left behind in all this?

    Also...what about the bodies (remember them!!!) You know... the ones that have been examined and tested for DNA...Who's were they supposted to be?

    If they were some other soldiers (the unlucky ones I guess  :P) --then why were some of these "soldiers" bones those of middle ages women (Alexandra, Demidova,) or young girls(some of the daughters) as well as middle aged men (Botkin, the Footman the Cook and Nicholas) you do realize that men's and women's skeletons are quite different-- don't you?
 
    And if the bodies are in fact the remains of most of the Royal Family and  their retainers ... then what is your point?

R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 08:07:52 PM
rskkiya, my point is, I don't believe that everyone was murdered.  I believe that it is possible that at least two children escaped.  There was also an industrial family that dissappeared, during the time of the murders. Perhaps they were the victims?  Does anyone know what happened to this industrial rich family?  I also believe that Yurovsky helped in the rescue.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 22, 2004, 08:10:48 PM
Abby, I would appreciate it.  Thank you.

Candice
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 22, 2004, 08:45:55 PM
Ahhh yeeesss!
The mysterious family that was exactly the same as the RF in age height weight and bone structure and who also had the SAME DNA as Prince Philip...of course... that family!I should have guessed!

R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 22, 2004, 10:03:17 PM
Candice,


from "The Fate of the Romanovs", the "Epilogue":

[Yurovsky], increasingly ill from heart trouble and an ucler, worked only sporadically,  first as director of the Red Victory factory near Moscow, then as assistant at the Polytechnic Museum.  In his last days, as his son Alexander recalled, he expressed  great regret over his role in the murders. On August 2, 1938, Yurovsky died in a Kremlin hospital at age sixty. H
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 22, 2004, 10:06:32 PM
SORRY I Got cut off (acidentally hit 'send'!) I will repost the whole thing:

Candice,


from "The Fate of the Romanovs", the "Epilogue":

"[Yurovsky], increasingly ill from heart trouble and an ucler, worked only sporadically,  first as director of the Red Victory factory near Moscow, then as assistant at the Polytechnic Museum.  In his last days, as his son Alexander recalled, he expressed  great regret over his role in the murders. On August 2, 1938, Yurovsky died in a Kremlin hospital at age sixty. He was buried in Novodievechy Cemetery outside Moscow."


So I guess I was wrong! I read in that same chapter that Beloborodov had the throat cancer.

Hope that helps!  ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 23, 2004, 02:15:58 PM
Quote
Ok Candice and Agrbear...I want to get this clear...

     The premise is -- that somehow someone was able to help the RF escape...
     Who ? Noone seems sure...
     When did this daring escapade occure -- in the daytime or at night?
      Did NONE of the revolutionary guards think to shoot at this wayward band as they all scurried off...
      So both Alexandra and Alexie would have been carried ...(this would have been a real trick as any sudden or jerky movement would have caused him to start hemoraging again... :-/) while everyone else just ran?
      What about Demidova or the Cook or the Footman?  Where they left behind in all this?

     Also...what about the bodies (remember them!!!) You know... the ones that have been examined and tested for DNA...Who's were they supposted to be?

     If they were some other soldiers (the unlucky ones I guess  :P) --then why were some of these "soldiers" bones those of middle ages women (Alexandra, Demidova,) or young girls(some of the daughters) as well as middle aged men (Botkin, the Footman the Cook and Nicholas) you do realize that men's and women's skeletons are quite different-- don't you?
  
     And if the bodies are in fact the remains of most of the Royal Family and  their retainers ... then what is your point?

R.


Poor poor Rskkiya has gotten confused between Candice, myself and others about the possible escape of one or all of the Romanovs from the Ipatiev House.  

I can't speak for Candice nor the others.

As for my theory:  I think it's possible that one or all escaped.

The five men, possible rescuers, who had been guards under Yurovsky, were found dead near the Four Brothers Mine.  So, I wondered if these five men had been the ones murdered and taken to the mine that night of 16/17 July 1918 from the Ipatiev House instead of Nicholas II and the others.  Then I went into a different theory when I asked myself,    Why would Yurovsky kill them?  Was it because these five helped one, maybe Marie and her boy friend, or all of them,  to escape?

The other theory about throwing out jewels to divert the guards was not one of my better theories.  But greed, as Candice said, does lead to other theories which may be closer to the truth.

Anyway,  I've never said that I thought the bodies in the grave fond in Pig's Meadow were not Nicholas II and the others.  However, I think some of the church people don't believe they are because there were too many graves with Romanov's bodies [adults and girls] which could have been opened and  the needed bones taken and buried in Pig's Meadow.  I leave this debate to the experts.

Yurovsky and his gang claimed to have buried all but two in Pig's Meadow.  But, they didn't seem to know where the missing two were buried.  And, if anyone should have known,  they should have known.  So, if two had escaped them, why not all?  And,  if they escaped,  we don't know for how long or where they went.  Althought The File On the Tsar gives us some possible answers.  So, if the bodies in Pig's Meadow are the royal family and the others,  accept two, then they must have been recaptured and  killed.  I doubt that the CHEKA or the Soviets would admit they had to killed Nicholas II and the others twice.  Once on paper and the second time for real and very secretly.

Hope this helped the confussed.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 23, 2004, 06:44:38 PM
Abby, thank you for getting that information for me.  I always wondered how old Yurovsky was in 1918.  Just another question please, does his family live in Moscow?

Candice
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 23, 2004, 08:32:18 PM
Agrbear...

Thanks for the clarification. You were very right you know it is often very difficult to keep your story and Candices straight... :)
By the way- have you read NOTHING  but "The File on the Tzar?" Or is this more mystery information from Herr XXX?

IF they had escaped and them some of the family was recaptured when did this catastrophy occurr? May ? August ?November? 1917-1919-1923?

And above all WHY?  What evidence do you have that this have could have happened ? Stories of local witnesses? Deathbed confessions? More jewels found in a lake? Wishful thinking?

I must ask you AGAIN to please read some of the many other good books on this event...Perhaps one of them will provide the evidence you seek for your mysterious secret story...

By the way-- I am beginning to very seriously doubt your tale of Herr XXX and his confession to a child...


As you said
its poor poor Rskkiya!
R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2004, 08:51:06 PM
Ever read "The Hunt for the Tsar?" It has a different set of outrageous theories.

There was another one I saw once, something like "The Rescue of the Romanovs? ??? it was written by a guy who claimed he had the whole story on the 'escape' and 'rescue.' I used to be really really into this in the 70's. Sad to say, old and cynical and knowing the DNA testing, I am no longer a believer.

It was a fun mystery while it lasted. But I am sorry, I think the time is passed when we can even hope in our wildest dreams. :'(
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 23, 2004, 10:56:50 PM
Yeah I've read "Hunt for the Tsar" by Guy Richards. heh. kind of the same as his other book, "Rescuing the Romanovs". However, Annie, I think you are talking about "Rescuing the Czar" which was a different book, published in 1920, by some unknown authors who weaved a tale about smuggling the family out of Ipatiev House via water cistern underground and to safety at the British consulate down the road. There is a thread about this book in the "Books about the Imperial Family" section. Very interesting! I beleive the book has been proven to be a fabrication.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2004, 10:23:08 AM
This is the quote Abby referred you to go and see under Book thread:

Quote
RTC was published by my father in law in 1920 at the request of Consul General George Romanovsky.  He had written this piece of pure fiction with his cohort, Wm McGarry, with the hopes of selling it to Hearst for a movie.  That did not happen, the book was reviewed very badly, and ended up on the remaindered table for $1.00.

All existing correspondence between these two men reveals that the book was a contrived piece of fiction designed to make money.  Both disassociated themselves from it by using a pen name, James Smythe

The book is now a collector's item and sells upward from $700.  Nick was lucky to find an inexpensive edition in France!!

The fact that McNeal bases so much of her book on this bit of nonsense throws her other conclusions into grave doubt.  My family is extremely familiar with the genesis of RTC, but nothing would convnce McNeal that it was anything but the Rosetta Stone that would reveal what "really happened" to the  Romanovs.  Sad.

Elizaveta


I, too, found this very interesting.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 25, 2004, 12:34:39 AM
Yes, AGRBear, I found it interesting that McNeal, after being told quite clearly by our poster that RTC was a fabrication, persisted in using it as the centerpiece of her theory of a rescue of the family.  Would a reasonable person do this?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs sur
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2004, 01:00:13 PM
While I'm trying to find my McNeal book,  let me answer the question about why I'm using The File On The Tsar.  The authors Summer and Mangold went "outside the box" and looked for evidence which might support the theory that one or all of the eleven escaped from the Ipatiev House.  Some of you are very critical of their findings.  On another thread this was posted in their defense.

Quote
Oh Dear Oh Dear

I am sorry.   Tom Mangold and Anthony Summers are two highly respected, successful and serious British journalists.  

For over thirty years their contribution to major British newspapers and public service broadcasting - the BBC's current affairs flagship programme, Panorama to name but one - has been of the very highest standard.   As a former BBC employee, I know how highly their work was regarded both within the organisation and beyond.

Their book 'File on the Tsar' was groundbreaking in its day... Soviet days when to uncover just about anything to do with the last Imperial Family in Russia was well nigh impossible.

With the passage of time, the opening of archives and history being rewritten before our eyes, it is only too easy to be critical with hindsight.

tsaria


Books have followed but most have been about Anna Anderson or books which continued to remain "in the box", which means the authors believe all eleven [Nicholas II and the others] were executed on the night of 16 /17 July 1918 in the basement of the Ipatieve House in Ekaterinburg.

One of the latest books, The Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson,  has produced new evidence from the archives plus data about the bones found in Pig's Meadow.....  Apparently,  they find the evidence which leads them to believe the entired family and the others were murdered.   They talk about the two missing bodies and assume they were Alexei and one of his sisters.

Then I came along and try to pull the readers back "out of the box" because I think one or all escaped.

My questions will continued to be "out of the box".  But who knows,  you may convince me to get  back "in the box" and fade away.  

We can have Napoleon's kind of history:  "What is history but a fable agreed upon?"

Or we can have this kind history:  Histories are as perfect as the Historians is wise, and is gifted with an eye and a soul."  Carlyle, Cromwell's Letters and Speeches Introduction.

I'm just looking for the truth.  No more.  No less.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 25, 2004, 01:22:24 PM
I would think that - and certainly hope that - all of us embrace a search for truth. But, a search for truth does not per se compel one to "think outside the box", or to get away from pop lexicon, it does not insist that reasonable people reject the most probable explanations. That's the problem I have with alternative theories about what happened to the IF.

To me, the fact that all of Nicholas and Alexandra's surviving siblings were convinced of their deaths was the most daming evidence of all. Victoria Milford Haven, Irene of Prussia, Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse, and the Grand Duchesses Olga and Xenia - all mourned the loss of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children for the rest of their lives. To believe the IF escaped and allowed this monumental grief to continue means you either think these people were fabulous actors or that the IF were monsters who didn't care about their families. Since I believe neither of these to be true, I do not believe the mass escape theories, and I've got to wonder, how do you even consider it?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 25, 2004, 04:41:13 PM
I must agree with LisaD.'s witty remark.

How can AGrBear, with her faith in the great goodness of the most benign Tzar (and his kin), possibly imagine that having somehow escaped from certain death, survivors would allow their relatives to live in painful  ignorance of this "miracle"?

What are you really up to "AgrBear"?

R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 25, 2004, 07:51:43 PM
Not meaning to further the argument here...
but what about the Dowager Empress, who refused to beleive they were dead? Not only did she deny their death, which could be excused as a mother's hope, but she adamantly expressed her beleif that they were alive and someplace specific. She claimed she knew this for sure. Why her, and not the others? Did she know something no one else did?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2004, 08:00:23 PM
On p. 321 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar mentioned an eye witness Natalya Mutnykha, a nurse, who claimed she had seen ex-Empress Alexandra and four daughters, in Perm in the basement where Berezin's rooms were.  

And they said:  "This formal testimony, along with that of other witnesses, says categorically that all the Romanov women were held prisioner by the Bolshviks in Perm late in the summer of 1918 and on into the autumn."

Does anyone have any new evidence that this testimony is false?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 25, 2004, 08:20:31 PM
I don't think anyone has ever proved that testimony to be false, but it's hard to disprove every unfounded theory running rampant about the existance of the Romanov women in the various places they've claimed to be seen.
But if I remember correctly a certain detail about that passage, it would be hard to recognize the four Grand Duchesses and the Empress "by the light of a weak tallow candle".  :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 25, 2004, 09:39:47 PM
The statement to which you refer was from Kirsta, a White Officer investigating the disappearence of the Imperial Family. The statements about sightings of the Imperial women in Perm were judged to not be credible by the White authorities heading up the investigation. Interestingly enough, someone who could have easily identified them, Ioann Constantinovich's wife, Elena Petrovna, was being held in Perm during the time of the sightings. I believe at least once she was asked to identify "grand duchesses" who proved to be not her cousins by marriage.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 25, 2004, 09:54:26 PM
Thanks Lisa! I didn't know Elana was asked to identify the women. I did know that she was staying in Perm around the time, though. So they proved not to be her cousins by marriage? How was it proved?

Just curious. This is intriguing!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 26, 2004, 12:17:03 AM
To clarify, I don't know that the ladies in the basement were identified by Elena Petrovna or not. What I do know is that EP could have cleared this matter up in moments because she was being held in Perm at the time the women were seen in the basement. I do know that during her time in the Urals, Elena was asked to identify someone as Anastasia and she said it was not the Grand Duchess. Since she knew Nicholas' daughters well, her word was considered proof enough.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs sur
Post by: Olga on July 26, 2004, 12:18:27 AM
Quote
Then I came along and try to pull the readers back "out of the box" because I think one or all escaped.


Just because you think some escaped does not mean it is true. It sounds to me as if you are searching for any thread of evidence that will support your escape theories, no matter the dubious authenticity of the claims. Your comments hint at wishful thinking on your part, and refusal to accept the massacre of 16/17 July 1918.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on July 26, 2004, 09:00:00 AM
May I also add that The File on the Tsar is widely regarded as rubbish only worthy of being pulped.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 10:07:34 AM
On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on July 26, 2004, 10:35:33 AM
File on the Tsar really is a fascinating book.
Here's the problem with it (in my view):  lots of little pieces do not make the puzzle fit, and the authors had these little pieces.

I think it is also a good idea to keep in mind (I've posted about this before and I think others have, too) that due to the nature of the crime, the state of the country at the time, and the precarious power hold the Bolsheviks had at that time, it is entirely likely that both party members, revolutionary types, and those they could pay or convince to persuade, peppered the countryside of the Urals, Ekaterinburg, and beyond with many different scenarios, just to keep everyone (at home and abroad) guessing.

The outcome of WWI remained uncertain during this time, and how Russia might be treated at the hands of certain victors had to have plagued the Bolsheviks.  When American troops arrived in Europe towards the end of the war, they were fresh for battle, and who knew if they might just come into Russia to fight (and win) and want to restore a tsar who had been murdered.  The Bolsheviks also worried what England or Germany might do to Russia for killing royal relatives.
Since no one knew the outcome, the Soviets hedged their bets by casting around all sorts of stories to confuse the truth (that the murders had been done).
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2004, 10:40:36 AM
One thing must be pointed out here, please...

We know "without doubt" that at least the following people were IN the Ipatiev house and went to sleep that night of July 16 before Yurovski awoke Botkin.
Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Alexei
Why? because Alexandra wrote her diary entry that day, which specifically mentions all of them by name.
Thus, no question these people were in the house that night.
Marie mentioned by name on the 15th
Anastasia mentioned by name on the 13th...

Now, the same entry of the 16th goes to pains to mention the disappearance of Sednev, because it upset Alexei. Why would Alexandra not mention the diappearance of her children or others in their retinue with them? Makes no sense, none at all.

PLEASE try to offer concrete evidence to support mere speculation.
This thread is not about offering "what ifs" it is meant to be a serious discussion of EVIDENCE not unsupported theory.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 04:48:09 PM
Since we assume that the diary of Alexandra hasn't been tampered,  then all eleven were in the Ipatiev House up to the 3/16th of July, including Maria.  And, Lyonka Sednyov, the kitchen boy was "fetched to go & see his Uncle...."

"10:30  to bed. 15 degrees."

This is set in stone and farther questions will not be asked by me about what did or could have occured before this time.   :)

So what about:
[quote author=AGRBear On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.
[/quote]


AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on July 26, 2004, 05:29:09 PM
Quote
Since we assume that the diary of Alexandra hasn't been tampered,  then all eleven were in the Ipatiev House up to the 3/16th of July, including Maria.  And, Lyonka Sednyov, the kitchen boy was "fetched to go & see his Uncle...."

"10:30  to bed. 15 degrees."

This is set in stone and farther questions will not be asked by me about what did or could have occured before this time.   :)

So what about:AGRBear



I don't think it's so much "set in stone" as much as:
1.  The discipline of history requires that you work with what you have.  Alexandra kept a very regular record of what was happening in the house (not as detailed as we'd like, but again, it's what we have), even more than Nicholas, who I believe mostly stopped writing in his diary on a regular basis from June onwards.  If and until something else comes to light that contradicts her record, the "what if" scenario isn't a very responsible pursuit.
2.  To the best of my knowledge -- I'm sure someone else here will know if otherwise -- Alexandra's diaries were written in her own hand, and consistently so, page following page.  I've never heard nor read where the writing was dissimilar at any point, nor if any pages were removed.

I don't know about the guard records, I seem to remember that Yurovsky was adamant about taking roll every day and that it was recorded. Other than, I don't see how there would be anyone else who would have kept day by day records of who was there and who was not. Who knows, perhaps some house guards wrote letters or kept diaries at the time and if those turn up and say something different, then I think it's time to bring up the "what ifs".  Just my view.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?oh
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2004, 08:30:43 PM
If one or all escaped after my 10:00 curfew on the night of 16 July 1918, then we need to find evidence that there was someone / a group who were near enough to rescue one or all?  We know there were various plots to rescue Nicholas II and his family.  In fact, there were groups already in Ekaterinburg by early July 1918. Some of us  assume at least one of the messages from someone/ a group of rescuers may have  been discovered by the CHEKA. This made the CHEKA and Soviet's really nervous.  

Alexandra wrote 19 June/2July 1918

"Beautiful morning."
Then farther down she says:
"Now Avdeev has to come morning & evening to see if we are all there."  p. 184 Robert Massie THE LAST DIARY of TSARITSA ALEXANDRA  

I assume this doesn't mean anyone  had gone missing and had been returned, instead  the head count  of Avdeev/Avdeyev was because of the discovering of a  plot of a rescue.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 26, 2004, 08:31:23 PM
Does anyone know where I can find a sample of Anastasia's hand writing?  I found in one of the books I read her signature.  However, I would like to see more text. Regards,

Candice
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 26, 2004, 09:30:27 PM
Candice ...
Please try to visit a library ...even a small amount of effort on your part will provide you with the type of book you seek...

"Agrbear"... No doubt the RF all escaped ...they turned into pretty pink and blue butterflies and floated away... :P

I have little patience left for either of you two...

R
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2004, 12:29:28 PM
Quote
"Agrbear"... No doubt the RF all escaped ...they turned into pretty pink and blue butterflies and floated away... :P

R


I have never said the nine bodies in the grave in Pig's Meadow were not nine of the eleven who were living in the Ipatiev House 16 July 1918.  If they are not, that will be discovered through findings by scientists not me.

This should not surprise my critics.  Because I've said this more than once.

My questions is:  Were the nine/eleven executed that night?  I don't think they were.  Why?  Because if everything happen as reported by  Yurovsky,  all eleven would have probably been killed and would have been carried away and buried twice.  The first time in the mine shaft and the second time in Pig's Meadow.  

There are many  clues which tell us  this probably isn't what happen.  I have mentioned the  two missing bodies.  Just as I've voiced that Yurovsky's testimony  fails to reveal where the bodies are.

If the two were not executed then did they escaped?  If this is true, then  Yurovsky's story is a complete lie or a part lie.  Where does the truth end and his  lies begin?

Even if the two bodies are found,  their bones will not prove they were killed and buried on the night of 16/17 July.  Nor can it be proved through science the exact date the nine in the Pig's Meadow grave were buried.

As King and Wilson have said to me,  the scientists are quite sure the bodies have been in the ground for a certain period of time.  The bones of the daughters can show their approximate age at death.  But let me add, science is great but to this date, they can not  tell us the day, month or year the nine were buried.  They can say they were buried about 1916 to 1923.  Correct me if my years are too many years in this estimate.  Like I said, I'm not a scientists.

So, it is possible that one or all escaped, were recaptured, killed and buried.  But where were they buried?   Because,  I don't think it was Pig's Meadow for most of the bodies until later.  The two bodies at the bottom of the pile of bones may have since they show their  decomposition is different than the others piled on top.... Course, this can be explained by the moisture and the acid.

It is King and Wilson who bring up the questions about the bones on p.408:  "Although more than 500 bones had been retrieved, this fell far short of what the investigators should have uncovered.  A human skeleton is composed of 206 bones; with nine victims, there should have been 1,854 bones in the pit...."   Added to this was the fact that 20 tons of earth was searched, again, and just 300 bone fragments were found plus teeth, bullets, fatty tissue, rope and ceramic fragments.

Based on this alone,  I feel it's possible that this Pig's Meadow is not where the bodies were originally buried, however, this was where most the bones of the nine were later taken and reburied.

If they were not buried here first then why not?  What occured the night of 16/17 July which would result in all of this mystery?  I for one do not believe Yurovsky and his gang  executed all eleven and all eleven were buried on the 17th somewhere in Pig's Meadow.  Nine were -in part - buried there but when?  

What difference does a few days or a year make?  If the nine/eleven were executed later,  this proves the true character of these particular Bolshviks who were no longer afraid the Whites might rescue them in Ekaterinburg in July of 1918....

I seek no revenge nor hostility toward Yurovsky and the others.  It was war time.  They were following orders.    All I am seeking is the truth of what happened.  No one should think otherwise.

AGRBear





Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 08:19:21 PM
I'm certain that your promise not to seek retribution against Yurofsky (who was- no doubt- quaking in his otherworldly boots) and company has really impressed a lot of people here...

It has made me wonder how long it has been since you took you medication...(cucoo cucoo)  ???

You do realize -don't you- just how mad some of your comments make you appear...

I feel certain that you will never reveal your Herr XXX story...please prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on July 27, 2004, 09:20:56 PM
Hey hey hey!  Now I try not to be rude on this forum, but I might now just break that tradition.  Rskkiya, I think it's YOU who needs to be on Ritalin or something--word of advice--TAKE A CHILL PILL!! ;)  AGRBear is NOT doing anyone any harm by voicing her beliefs.  I don't know WHY you are being so nasty!! >:(  I can't speak for others on this board, but I for one am not in your words "impressed" at all by your fiery snide banter.  :P It is rude and uncalled for.  People don't want to witness bickering and nastiness on this board--I don't know how old you are, but I'm 16, and I'm finding you to be somewhat immature.  It's absolutely ridiculous!  The only one who is being bothered by AGRBear is YOU for some strange reason.  But I can assure you, honey, that YOU are DEFINITELY bothering a lot more people than AGRBear is--so do us all a favor and take YOUR medication!!!!!   ;) ::)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 10:09:02 PM
michelle

I have been having a rather complicated conversation with Candice, AngrBear and a number of others at this and other threads ...You may not be aware of the topics we have discussed (and the claims made)... so no doubt you may not be up to speed with this post.

please calm down.

R

In my view there were no survivors...I am still looking for any serious evidence...none has as of yet been presented...although much has been hinted at.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on July 28, 2004, 03:06:40 AM
Michelle, the reason people feel the need to inject humour into this discussion is that AGRBear and Candice are extremely frustrating with their wild escape theories.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2004, 11:51:12 AM
Quote
....
It is King and Wilson who bring up the questions about the bones on p.408:  "Although more than 500 bones had been retrieved, this fell far short of what the investigators should have uncovered.  A human skeleton is composed of 206 bones; with nine victims, there should have been 1,854 bones in the pit...."   Added to this was the fact that 20 tons of earth was searched, again, and just 300 bone fragments were found plus teeth, bullets, fatty tissue, rope and ceramic fragments.

AGRBear


Tell me R, O, or anyone,  what reason can you give as to why so many bones are missing?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 28, 2004, 11:54:52 AM
rskkiya, thank you for your kind advise as always but I have already 10 books in my possession on the IF and only one has a sample of Anastasia's signature.  I would like more text so I can compare in more detail.  However, if you know of one that I can acquire at a liabray  that aswers my question, then please be more specific.





Quote
Candice ...
Please try to visit a library ...even a small amount of effort on your part will provide you with the type of book you seek...

"Agrbear"... No doubt the RF all escaped ...they turned into pretty pink and blue butterflies and floated away... :P

I have little patience left for either of you two...

R

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 28, 2004, 12:09:12 PM
As has been mentioned before (AGAIN AND AGAIN) the bodies were shot then dragged into a truck later moved to a cart where an attempt to hide them in a mine shaft and close that shaft with various explosives was made  This did not work, so the bodies were hoisted up, moved about again and finally some of the bodies having been damaged with riflebutts and burned with sulfuric acid were buried in a mass grave and two of the bodies were burned in a bonfire...
When the interred bodies were excavated-- it was not under the most ideal of conditions... and as to the burned corpes- we may look to time and animals for some part in their "disapearance"  perhaps with further examination we may still find them.
I am no foresic expert. I do not know exactly how many bones are likely to survive for so many years even under the best conditions.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on July 28, 2004, 12:56:12 PM
Quote
Michelle, the reason people feel the need to inject humour into this discussion is that AGRBear and Candice are extremely frustrating with their wild escape theories.


What comes off as humor to some, may seem aggressive to others.

JMHO
Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2004, 02:37:36 PM
I have incerted numbers so I can keep the discussion in some kind of order.

Quote
...
(1) This did not work, so the bodies were hoisted up, moved about again and finally some of the bodies having been damaged with riflebutts and burned with sulfuric acid were buried in a mass grave and two of the bodies were burned in a bonfire...
(2)
When the interred bodies were excavated-- it was not under the most ideal of conditions... and as to the burned corpes-
(3)
we may look to time and animals for some part in their "disapearance"  perhaps with further examination we may still find them.
(4)
I am no foresic expert. I do not know exactly how many bones are likely to survive for so many years even under the best conditions.


Let discuss two parts of your statement.
(1) & (4)  The bodies hosted up out of the mine shaft were tossed into the shaft either  as a whole body or were in parts.  These whole bodies or parts were transferred to a grave, in this case, let's say it was the grave in Pig's Meadow. Then a majority of these bones should be be found in the grave of  Pig's Meadow.

Let Yurovsky tell us in his 1934 testimony:
"...the completely naked corpses had been thrown into the mine..."

So, Yurovsky is telling us the corpses were whole.

Correct?

Then the corpses are pulled out of the mine shaft and taken to Pig's Meadow.

What does Yurovsky tell us next?

"...Before putting the other corpses into the pit we poured sulpheric acid over them...."

There is no mention of having cut up the bodies either at the mine shaft nor in Pig's Meadow.

Correct?

So to this point in time, ALL the bones of the nine people would have ended up in the pit.

Correct?

I'm looking in The Fate of The Romanovs to see what they told us about the destruction the high concentration of acid on p. 406.  They tell us:  "Acid sufficient to turn the earth blue would prevent production and spread of bacteria, which are away at the soft tissue.  When poured over the corpses, the acid would have melted away fat, turning the skin black ...."  I don't see what effects the acid had on the bones.  Perhaps there is someone out there who can help us with this question:  Would all of this acid destroy bones?  If so, would this account for so many bones to be missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow?

Let's just work on step (1) & (4) and later go to the other parts of R.'s statement.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Penny Wilson on July 28, 2004, 03:09:49 PM
Quote

Perhaps there is someone out there who can help us with this question:  Would all of this acid destroyed the bones?  If so, would this account for so many bones to be missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow?

AGRBear



When researching and then writing FOTR, we came across several items that we did not include in our text either for reasons of space, or because we did not have a multiplicity of sources to support them.  One of these items was the theory that the grave had been opened in 1928/29.  I'm at work now, and as I don't have access to our research notes here, I couldn't tell you exactly where we came across mention of the grave being opened at that time, but I do remember that we felt it made a certain amount of sense:  In the West, the Anna Anderson matter was a sensational piece of news, and Stalin was just settling into his new job -- perhaps he was curious to know if all the bodies were in the grave.  Opening the grave and exhuming the bodies -- which I think Koryakova also thought had been done -- could account for some missing bones, either dropped on the surface soil and subsequently taken away by animals, or saved by the exhumers as macabre souvenirs.  To emphasize, this is just a possibility, but it has some support from expert opinion like Koryakova's, and from other circumstantial evidence.

In the matter of the acid:  The chances are that the sulphuric acid used that night -- as it was strong enough to color the earth blue even eighty years later -- was actually chromic acid (AKA acqua regia) which is sulphuric acid pumped up with potassium dichromate. You see, sulfuric acid does not burn immediately on contact.  If you spilled sulfuric acid on your hand, it might itch, but you might not even feel anything.  You'd have time to run to the bank, and then pick up a few things at the store before it started to burn -- though mind you, as soon as it starts to burn, you're looking at 1st degree burns and blackening of the flesh.  Adding potassium dichromate makes the acid immediately reactive -- and this might have been something that the Bolsheviks wanted because of the tendency of liquid to run off whatever it's poured over.  And the local population in Ekaterinburg would have known about chromic acid, and probably would have made their own from the Japanese sulphuric acid available at the city stores, because of the work at the mines in the area.

Which is all a long way of saying that yes, this acid can burn sufficiently to dissolve smaller bones in such a situation, with sulphuric acid being less active than the easily made chromic acid.

Penny
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 28, 2004, 03:19:26 PM
Hmmm...if the grave WAS in fact opened in 1928/29...then the ones who opened it may have been acting in support of the claimants, and removed the bodies of Anastasia/Alexei...

I'm sorry to be talking this way because I know how speculation is frowned upon here ;)  but that is a very interesting and important fact made by Penny. I think if L. Koryakova even thought that, (she WAS a real scientist) then the probablity of the grave being opened prior to the Ryabov/Avdonin exhumation is great.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2004, 03:33:21 PM
As always, Greg King and Penny Wilson are most helpful when we need their help.  Thank you.

Penny Wilson wrote:>>One of these items was the theory that the grave had been opened in 1928/29<<

So, it is possible,  the grave was opened in 1928/29. And it is possible  some bones/ bodies could have been counted or taken away and/or added?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Penny Wilson on July 28, 2004, 03:49:08 PM
Quote
Hmmm...if the grave WAS in fact opened in 1928/29...then the ones who opened it may have been acting in support of the claimants, and removed the bodies of Anastasia/Alexei...


I really, REALLY doubt this. Not only was the grave in the heart of Soviet Russia, where I think sympathy for the Romanovs was not high at that time -- what luck for someone to have selected exactly the right female skeleton to pull out!  :-X

Quote

I'm sorry to be talking this way because I know how speculation is frowned upon here ;)  but that is a very interesting and important fact made by Penny. I think if L. Koryakova even thought that, (she WAS a real scientist) then the probablity of the grave being opened prior to the Ryabov/Avdonin exhumation is great.


Here's another possibility:  In the 1970s, an electrical cable was laid in the area, and it ran right through one side of the grave.  Given that the area is littered with early-Soviet-era unofficial graves, I can see the electrical workers being unimpressed with their "discovery" on accidentally opening the grave, continuing with the work of laying the cable, closing the grave, and never mentioning it again.  Who knows what sort of trouble or paperwork reporting this grave might have caused them?  :P

We could speculate endlessly and gruesomely on this topic, the bigger point being that there are numerous possiblities more likely and more natural than any of the "conspiracy theories" being tossed around here --  especially the ones relying on the intervention of Yakov Yurovsky.  I am 110% certain that this man was a committed revolutionary; he truly thought that he was bringing a better way of life to his own family and country at large.  I do NOT see him abandoning his convictions in sympathy with the Romanovs, whom he seemed to find rather unremarkable people.  I DO, however, see that he disliked and regretted what he had to do -- the "onerous duty of the revolution" he called it.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on July 28, 2004, 04:03:48 PM
Not to be gross or anything, but what kind of condition would the bodies have been in after being buried for 10 or so years?  I'm just trying to understand how so many bones went missing, and I keep thinking the bodies would have had enough tissues left due to the permfrost to keep most of the bones connected.  

However, Penny's theory on the workers laying electrical cables discovering the grave not knowing what they had found seems more plausable.  By that point, all that would have been left would be mostly bones.  If workers were unkowingly digging up the grave, then it seems most likely bones would have been caught up in the dirt they were removing.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on July 28, 2004, 04:10:58 PM
Quote

I am 110% certain that this man was a committed revolutionary; he truly thought that he was bringing a better way of life to his own family and country at large.  I do NOT see him abandoning his convictions in sympathy with the Romanovs, whom he seemed to find rather unremarkable people.  I DO, however, see that he disliked and regretted what he had to do -- the "onerous duty of the revolution" he called it.


I agree with this completly.  When convictions run as deep as Yurovsky's did, they just done do a 180 overnight.  My grandparents lived under Tsarist rule, albeit in Poland, and although I dont' know how my grandmother felt about the IF, I know my grandfather was anti-monarchy, anti-Tsarist rule, and was glad when the Romanov dynasty fell.  He felt that way until he died some 60 odd years later.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Penny Wilson on July 28, 2004, 04:20:59 PM
Quote
So, it is possible,  the grave was opened in 1928/29. And it is possible  some bones/ bodies could have been counted or taken away and/or added?

AGRBear


Well, yeah -- it we're talking about possibility . Probability is another matter entirely, because I can't think of a single solid piece of evidence to support this assertion.

I have heard, of course, the rumor or theory (whatever you want to call it) that the grave was salted with other, older Romanov bones -- or even the bones of Michael Alexandrovich, his being taller than his brother Nicholas apparently accounting for the extra-long arm bones on the Nicholas-skeleton.  

But both of these ideas are easily dismissed:  The first by the fact that we know approximately how long the bodies in the grave have been dead -- and I know of no other three young women related both to Prince Philip and to the Romanovs who died seventy to 100 years ago whose bones would be accessible to the Soviets.  And the longer arm bones on Nicholas' skeleton?  Likely a mix up with Trupp's skeleton, which laid under Nicholas' -- to paraphrase Maples:  Nicholas was being served in death, as in life, by the arms of his loyal servant.

These are just the first two theories I remember off the top of my head -- there certainly are more, but not one that I've heard has any real substance.  If anyone here has anything concrete to offier, I'd love to hear it!  :D

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 28, 2004, 04:48:28 PM
As most people know, I really like theories  ;D.  When you have time.  I'd like to learn about them.

Sometimes a missing puzzel piece can be found in the most strangest of places :)

Anyway, back to the problem of the cable.  Fate of the Romanov's page 403:  King and Wilson were telling us about Koryakova, who helped exhume the grave in Pig's Meadow voiced: " '...If the skeleton is found lying the way it was, without interruption, all the bones are supposed to be in anatomical order' " Some of this, she believed had been caused by the cable and 1979 exhumation; but the majority of the damage "looked very odd."

Was this because there was more damage to the anatiomical order of the other skeletons that there should have been?  

As for Yurovsky's loyality.  I've not question his devotion to the Soviets.  I'm just trying to discover how far did this loyality  take him in terms of speaking the truth and nothing but the truth or spreading "red herrings"  in his testimonies.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on July 28, 2004, 05:23:19 PM
So we have numerous possibilities as to the whereabouts of the bones. The grave was opened by Soviets in the late 20's, the cable was laid (in the 70's, I think) and Avdonin and Ryabov opened it back up in 79 where it remained "undisturbed" until they came back to it in 1989.

Lots of oppurtunity for tampering.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on July 28, 2004, 07:21:45 PM

What kind of DNA could the scientists extract from bones that were so damaged.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 29, 2004, 08:58:04 PM


  Well --as had meen mentioned in another thead -- the bodies may not have been "chopped up" --but they may have been damaged  or mangled in the abortive attempt to seal the the mining pit...
  Also having their faces smashed with rifle butts is sure to crush some of the facial bones...some of the smaller bones might just have gradually decomposed, even under the best of circomstances -- bodies return to the earth.  

Unless of course you're fixated on conspiracy theories, secret exhumations, and happy secretly reactionary executioners who magically help people excape!

bozhmoi  :P.
R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on July 29, 2004, 09:04:26 PM
Temper, temper.   ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on July 31, 2004, 09:09:12 AM
Candice...
They were able to give mostly sections of shin or thigh bones to Dr Peter Gill for examination of Mitochondrial DNA.
Have you seen "Anastasia Dead or Alive" from Nova Home Videos? It might clarify this for you.

R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 11, 2004, 11:38:03 PM
If Lenin's Moscow Soviet's were told the Royal family had been executed on 16/17 July 1918,  why did the Soviet,  "....Commissar Karl Radek -- proposed a deal with Berlin involving live Romanovs, after they are suppposed to have been dead."  wrote Summers and Mangold next to the photo of Radek Ill. 61. following page 336 in File On The Tsar.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on August 11, 2004, 11:46:11 PM
1) Please clarify your post, AGRBear, it's not clear what you are trying to say.

2) Do you use any other books apart from File on the Tsar?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on August 12, 2004, 08:09:29 AM
Because for awhile they did not admit to the murders and did not want the rest of the world to know what they had done. At times they said they were not dead, or that Nicholas was shot but the family moved safely to an undisclosed location. It was never in the newspaper, Tsar and family shot. There were conflicting stories for a long time.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on August 12, 2004, 08:28:39 AM
Quote
Because for awhile they did not admit to the murders and did not want the rest of the world to know what they had done. At times they said they were not dead, or that Nicholas was shot but the family moved safely to an undisclosed location. It was never in the newspaper, Tsar and family shot. There were conflicting stories for a long time.


Actions which were pretty indicative of Soviet Russia.  They started the lies with the Revolution and kept it up to the very end, I think to give the illusion that everything was perfect (indluding their leaders) when all was far from perfect.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2004, 10:05:32 AM
I think Lenin and Trotsky  were in desperate need of arms and had to make arms deals with anyone they could.  This meant they had to go secretly to Krupp Works which was a German company who had  continued to sell bullets to their German ememies through-out the war.  So, certain deals were set between Lenin and Krupp as the war with Germany was ending.  Lenin  may have made a deal through Radeck with Germany which was a swap for more arms for the lives of Nicholas II and his family.  The Reds desperately needed arms to fight the Whites who were starting to get their guns from  companies in the USA.  And, I think this is why Lenin wanted to keep the Romanovs alive.  However, the CHEKA and the Ural Soviet were pulling away and acting on their own.  Their hatred for Nicholas II was stonger than their need of Lenin in far away Moscow.

If Lenin suspected the CHEKA and Ural Soviets were about to execute the Romanovs and ruin his arms deal,  maybe, just maybe, it was Lenin or Trotsky who notified the German agents in Ekaterinburg to carry out their rescue plot no later than the 16th....

German agents had arrived in a Red Cross train and lived in a luxurious car parked on the rails near the Ekaterinburg train station... since May of 1918.

Assuming what Alvensleven had said was true,  the Soviets in Moscow continued to make the deal through Radeck with Krupp for more arms after 16 July 1918....

The reason I am mulling over this theory is because the German Alvensleven had annouced"  "Kaier Wilhlem wished at all costs to recue the soverign, Tsar Nicholas II..."  p. 285 File On The Tsar.  The Count then went on to tell Dolgorukov in June that  p. 286:  "....between 16 July and the 20th rumors would be spread about news of the death of the tsar....it would be false, but it would be necessary for certain reasons, namely for the tsar's rescue."

Please note,  it was in June the German Alvensleven told the Russian Dolgorukov these dates.

It was at this same time, the White Army was about to receive arms from the USA due to the British agent Sidney Reilly's push against the Bolsheviks.  And, the Whites were about ready to march into Ekaterinburg.

And, yes, this is a theory but there is evidence around a possible rescue  July 16  of the Royal Romanovs by the Germans.

It is possible more things happen in the Ipatiev House that night then we will ever know.

It is possible the Germans rescued Nicholas II and his family but they may not have gotten away.  The CHEKA may have found some of the family and some of the rescuers near the Four Brother's Mine....  I do not know.  Remember this is just a theory.....  

There are bodies of five men found near the Four Brother's Mine by the Whites.  We don't know who they were or why the Reds left  them where they were and didn't toss them into another mine shaft....  I have a feeling the stories of their execution will somehow tie in with the attempted rescue/escape of the Royal Family on the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.

My books on Reilly and German activities in Russia during WW I are packed in boxes at the moment, so, I'll have to go digging to find the books and pages which confirm what Summers and Mangold tell us in their book File On The Tsar.   There is a new book TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY  by Richard Spence with a lot of new data.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on August 14, 2004, 08:01:48 AM
That's all very nice AGRBear but it helps to use more than one book when studying history. And if the Romanovs did escape, how do you explain bodies that were found in Kopytaki forest?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on August 14, 2004, 09:07:49 AM
Also what would be the purpose of the Bolsheviks not killing the family? They wanted to kill them  :'( What would be the purpose of them hiding them? They didn't care enough to save their lives. If it had really happened surely we would know by now as there would no longer be any reason to lie. I am sorry but the book The File on the Tsar is no longer credible evidence especially after the bones have been found and so many other things have been found to be false. I had a hard time believing most of it back in the 70's but now it is almost utter fiction to me.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 14, 2004, 09:43:52 AM
It appears that some of you are having a hard time thinking that there is a possibility that the Royal Family and the others in the Ipatiev House were not killed on the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.  Telll me why couldn't they have been rescued and killed  later?  

I've never suggested they were not killed on the 18th or 29th of July or in Aug or Oct. or even in 1919 or 1920.   Some of the  bodies, apparently, did end up in Pig's Meadow, so they did die but their deaths may have been after being recaptured.  Two are missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow.  Since the two are missing,  did they escape the Reds?  Since I do think this is possible,   then I started think that just maybe something else happen on that eventful night.

The reason I used Summers and Mangold is because they thought "outside the box" which Yurovsky and the CHEKA and the Soviets wanted to keep all of you.  And, yes, a lot of their book File On The Tsar is outdated.  However, to me,  some of their questions are still valid.

And,  I'd like to know more about General Gaida's  investigation which was separate from all the data we've been given through exellent books like Fate of the Romanovs and  all the Massie books.....

There is a lot more to learn and discover.  And, I do believe this thread is about "Did any of the Romanovs survive.  So, if two of them did then how did they?

Since it is possible one or two escaped then why couldn't  all eleven  escape?  Why couldn't   four or five been  found outside of Ekaterinburg and killed in the woods and their bodies thrown into the mine...?  Why couldn't the others gone farther,  only to found and killed elsewhere and their bodies were returned and buried with the others in Pig's Meadow?

I for one would like to know what happen to them from the  16th to their deaths and who buried all but two in Pig's Meadow?

AGRBear

edit #1:  I've changed a few words here and there and corrected the spelling....
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on August 14, 2004, 09:50:15 AM
Why? Because there was no reason for a coverup. There were lies and rumors at the time but now we have so much historical evidence. Now that the Communist government has fallen and records are there to be found, if anything odd had happened someone would know by now. I see nothing that is avaiable or credible enough to change history.

A lot of  people were questioned after the Whites took Ekaterinburg, and most of them told basically the same story. The room at the Ipatiev house was all shot up, what, did the Whites to that to make up a story? WHY? It does not sound reasonable and there would be no motive. Even if there were after all these years the evidence is overwhelming. Yurovsky and the assasins did not care at all about the family, wanted them to die, and wanted to be the ones who shot them. I can't understand the reasons for theories they were moved and then shot by someone else. I don't know how it matters if they were moved and then killed later. I don't believe that happened but if it did it would not be a big difference in history such as finding one member had survived.

The biggest mystery I want solved is what happened to the 2 bodies, and I'd love to see that investigated by our best Romanov enthusiasts instead of dwelling on the AA issue over again.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on August 14, 2004, 09:51:52 AM
I'm sorry if I missed this on the thread (and AGRBear feel free to PM me if you don't want to re-state any iformation) but what is General Gaida's investigation? I am unfamiliar with it and I don't remember reading about it in any of my books. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 14, 2004, 10:07:45 AM
I may have misspelled the General's name.

I'll have to give you more details tomorrow,  I just ran out of time.  Headed to our sail boat  which we're racing in the bay this afternoon.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on August 14, 2004, 10:17:11 AM
Have a safe and fun day bear! I'm glad you have a good day to sail! We have a hurricane coming here, no fun at all!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: CuriousOne on August 14, 2004, 10:30:57 AM
Quote
I had to look up who Alexander Kirsta was and I had forgotten about him and how he was invovled in the investigation.

According to File On the Tsar p. 326 Summers and Mangold tell us that it was Kirsta, the Head of Military Control on 8 March 1919 and on 2 April 1919 takes the testimony of the nurse Mutnykh.   He backed this statement five others who were (1) Ivan Girschfeld, a German, (2) Sibiryev, local postal clerk, (3) Yegeniya Sokolova; (4) Glafyra Malysleva, who had a napkin from the royal family's "stuff",  (5) name unknown, listed as a patient from a local invalid hospital....

Mutnykh's story tells us, also,   she was not alone when she saw Alexandra and three of her daughters.  With her was Anna Kostina, the secretary to  Grigory Zinoviev.  [Note: she said three daughters, not four.]

This testimony,  let me note, again, wasn't until March and then again in April of 1919.  This was some seven and eight months after July 1918.  

Was side tracked on Mutnykh's story.

Back to Kirsta.

On page 323,  Summers and Mangold tell us that Kirsta was part of General Gaida investigation which was not part of Sokolov's.  Gaida was a member of the Ugolovny Rozysk  [CID = Criminal Investigation Division].....  Gaida didn't trust the Whites who quickly declared the Royal Family as being executed and were probably the source who were spreading the "rumors" about the daughters and Tsarina having been raped, etc. etc..   Gaida's collection did not include the White Army investigators collection.

If the Perm witnesses were part of some kind of conspiracy,  I wouldn't know.  Greg indicates this may have been the case.  But,  Gaida wasn't new at investigations.  And,  if you ask my opinion, until I'm given good reason to change my mind,  I think Gaida's data might  be more accurate than the Reds or the Whites about what happen to the Royal Family and the others.

Greg,  what do you have on Gaida and why is his data, in your opinion,  considered as being not as accurate as other investigators?

AGRBear




AGRBear asked me to find this quote on another thread and bring it over here to answer the question about Gaida.

Curious One
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on August 14, 2004, 10:42:36 PM
Thanks for the background info CuriousOne!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: princessalice on August 21, 2004, 09:44:54 PM
no....

at least that is what i have always thought...

the "reds" could not have any of the Imperial family left for the "whites" to rally around....they were barbaric, but i don't think they were entirelly stupid...evil, souless butchers, but not stupid....

i can't believe any of them lived...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: caroldenbow on August 22, 2004, 11:36:23 PM
The TRUST NO ONE book sounds interesting.  I will have to checkit out.  

When talking about deals between the Bolsheviks and the Germans, remember the point that Summers and Mangold make in FOTT that Germany might have only wanted the Empress and her daughters, as women could not sit on the Russian throne.  Any remains that have been dug up can't tell us when, to the day, the fatal blows were leveled.  

I think there is a lot to the possibility that the women, at least, survived that night in July, but were killed later.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?[i][/i]
Post by: AGRBear on August 26, 2004, 07:36:35 PM
On another thread, Heinrich Kleibenzetl, who claimed he saw Anatasia alive after 16 / 17 July 1918, has been discussed.  There were others mentioned in File of the Tsar by Summers and Mangold.

p. 335-6
Testimony of Dr. Pavel Uvanovich Utkin, page 44:

"In Sept 1918 I lived in Perm.... about 5-6 o'clock in the evening, an orderly came to me from the Cheka and said:  "Doctor, go at once to Malkov,"  who was chairman of the CHEKA." "They took me to the adjoining room.... In this room a woman was lying on a couch.  I realized they had called me to a sick person."  Goes on to say what she looked like and her state.  "At this time, as was obvious, the sick woman was in an unconscious state." "A little while after I began my examination the sick woman regained consciousness... I asked her:  "Who are you?"  p. 337.  "In a trembling voice, but quite distinctly, she answered me word for word--as follows:  "'I am the emperor's daughter Anastasia."  It's true he had never seen Anastasia but was shown a photograph and believed it was.  Dr. Utkin does claim the girl was above average height.  Everyone tells us she was not but shorter than the other girls [below average]  but I'm not sure anyone knows how tall she was by July of 1918....

Dr. Utkin's testimony was given 10 Feb 1919 and collected by Kirsta who was under Gen. Gaida, the Czech who appointed himself as investigator of the fate of the Royal Family and the others on the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.... It was his White Forces that had taken Ekaterinburrg.

King's and Wilson's  reasons why they don't seem to be interested in Kirsta's investigation is:  they think the Perm data had been invented by the CHEKA.  However,  I don't think this is true.  I think it was possible some or all of the royal females were in Perm after the night of 16 July 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?[i][/i]
Post by: Greg_King on August 28, 2004, 12:58:26 AM
Quote

King's and Wilson's  reasons why they don't seem to be interested in Kirsta's investigation is:  they think the Perm data had been invented by the CHEKA.  However,  I don't think this is true.  I think it was possible some or all of the royal females were in Perm after the night of 16 July 1918.

AGRBear


AGRBear:

Our reasons for discounting this testimony are numerous and based on solid evidence, not an erroneous view that we "don't seem to be interested" in the subject.  We read through 11 volumes of original Sokolov Dossiers, reports, additional materials in private collections and contemporary 1918-1922 reports of which we own original copies or original certified copies.  Having explored the issue of the Perm stories at great length during our research, and Gaida's reliability on a number of issues, as well as reports by his superiors on the subject, it became clear to us that the Perm stories were nothing more than Bolshevik propaganda, designed to serve two purposes: 1) Distract the White investigators; and 2) Allow rumors to flow unchecked for the benefit of Soviet relations with western governments, so as not to have to admit that the women and children had been executed.  Our position is therefore based on our research, not on presumed disinterest in the subject.

Greg King

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 28, 2004, 11:03:28 AM
 I believe I said that you, Greg  King and Wilson:  "...think the Perm data had been invented by the CHEKA."  I have never doubted your sincerity of your research.  I have never thought you hadn't done your homework.  Perhaps I should have said, "No longer showing interest..."  

You did ask me to produce some questions.  And,  I am most interested in some of the evidence you've set aside.    And several of the witnesses like Dr. Uktin interest me.  

So,  are you telling us the CHEKA made up this character and there wasn't a Dr. Utkin?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?[i][/i]
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2004, 02:42:29 PM
Quote

 Having explored the issue of the Perm stories at great length during our research, and Gaida's reliability on a number of issues, as well as reports by his superiors on the subject, it became clear to us that the Perm stories were nothing more than Bolshevik propaganda, designed to serve two purposes: 1) Distract the White investigators; and 2) Allow rumors to flow unchecked for the benefit of Soviet relations with western governments, so as not to have to admit that the women and children had been executed.  
Greg King




They were good at lying and spreading wrong info to deny they killed anyone. Here is something on how they lied about the ones in the pit in Alapayevsk:

some guards were posted by the mine, while most of the murderers went back to Alapayevsk, where they sounded the alarm from the cathedral bell tower and told the people that the Princes had been taken away by unknown persons.

Apparently some people then hinted at what had really happened, but the guards who were watching over the mine prevented them from trying to help the Princes. Other testimonies refer to the continued survival of the victims at the dark bottom of the pit: some peasants who crept to the edge of the pit heard the sound of singing rising from the bottom; others revealed that the Grand Duchess Elizabeth had used a piece of her head scarf to bandage a wound on Prince Ioann’s broken skull.

After the murder, the Bolsheviks cynically announced that the Princes had been abducted from Alapayevsk by a group of unknown men. News about the “escape” was published in the Bolshevik press in Petrograd, and for about a year the victims’ families believed that the Princes were alive somewhere in Siberia, and fervently waited to hear from them.


How devastating that false hope must have been for their familes :'(

source:

http://www.holy-transfiguration.org/library_en/royal_paley.html

also the memoirs of the murderers have been recorded in writing and published, most recently in the "Lifelong Passion" book, in a chapter near the end. It's all well documented.



Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?[i][/i]
Post by: AGRBear on August 28, 2004, 03:31:50 PM
Quote
They were good at lying and spreading wrong info to deny they killed anyone. Here is something on how they lied about the ones in the pit in Alapayevsk....


My very point all along.  So,  how can we know what really happen in the Ipatiev House on the night of 16 / 17 July 1918, because there may have been lies covering up an escape of one or all eleven?  

The Reds, CHEKAs, GPUs, KGBs and communist have had from 1918 to the fall of the Berlin Wall to now to weave the tales they want the world to believe.

Since I am not privy to actual data like King, Wilson and the others whom have written books and articles, all I can do is ask questions.

Since I've been around for 62 years,  I've learned the popular views of what happen in a particular event can change suddenly over night due to the appearance of new information.

Therefore,  when I read about a testimony like Dr. Utkin.s or  nurse Mutnykh or  Heinrich Kleibenzetl,  I'd like to know more information.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone, but if there was a Dr. Utkin then I'd like to know more about him and why Gen. Gaida's investigator Kersta found him as being a reliable witness and why others, today, like King and Wilson do not.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 29, 2004, 12:34:47 PM
Addition 29 Aug 04:
On another thread about a conversation on other testimonies of other eye wittnesses,  Greg King replied [in part]:

Quote
...
4.  Kirsta began investigating deliberate Bolshevik rumors that the whole family had been moved from Ekaterinburg; he collected testimony about Nicholas being taken off in chains on a train to Perm.  And he followed this by eagerly believing anything that seemed to confirm these stories.  What you need to understand is that the Bolsheviks were deliberately spreading false information, and much of it was that invstigated by Kirsta that suggested the women were saved.  You have only to think of the source here-te sister of a high-ranking Bolshevik-to understand the dynamics behind the tale-why else would she be out talking about what was obviously a lie?  Everything we read, and all the examinations and testimonies in the dossiers, back this up-most of it unpublished."

"I realize it may not be a satisfactory answer, but we read thousands of documents, most of which never made it into "The Fate of the Romanovs," and thus I am reasonably sure that the Perm stories were nothing more than deliberate Bolshevik distortion."

Greg King


I, again, repeat,  I understand the Bolsheviks were speading rumors, lies, "red herrings" about the fate of Nicholas II and the other Romanovs plus others.

And, I'm sure King and Wilson are beginning to find me a "thorn" in their side.  I don't mean to be.   However,  one of the statements which drives me is found on p. 286  The File On The Tsar:

"Alvensleven had something else to say at that puzzling meeting in Kiev, and it astonded his liseners.  In General Dolgorukov's words:
'....[he] warned us that between 16 July and the 20th rumors would be spead about news of the death of the tsar, and that this rumour or news should not alarm us; like the rumor of the tsar, which ws current in June, it would be false, but it would be necessary for certain reasons, namely for the tsar's rescue."

This statement was 5 or 6 July.

Dolgorukov went on to say:  "At same time he begged us to keep our converstion with him secret, and to give the impression that we believed the news of the tsar's death."

On p. 288 when Dolgorukov asked Alvensleben about the death of the Tsar,  Alvensleven had to say the Germans had failed and the Tsar had been killed.   This was in August.

Sometime between 5 or 6 July and Aug.  Alvensleven was told the Tsar had been killed.

We, also, know Count Mirbach was involved in the rescue or attempted rescue.    And find it interesting that it was on the afternoon of 6 July 1918 that he was murdered by "two Left Social Revolutionaies"  p. 295  The File On the Tsar.

So,  I've wondered why the Germans talked about the date of 16 July  long before the report of the executions of the Romanovs in the Ipatiev House.  Why that particular date?  What happen on this day that was different than the other days?  Was their a religious holiday?  I don't think so.  Then what was it?  There was mention in many books that some of the guards were drunk.  A clue.  It was pay day.  The guards had money in their pockets and they bought their vodka....  So,  how many of the guards, some whom were eye witnesses, were drunk that night?   And, did they actually see what they claimed to have seen?  Or, where they merely trying to stay out of trouble and with a little urging just repeated what they were told to repeat?   And, when some of the somber ones were caught stealing,  did they, too, bend to Yurovsky's demands which was to repeat what they were told to say so they didn't end up in a Ekaterinburg jail as common thieves?

Yes,  I have questions.  And,  since I wasn't there,  I feel it important to question anything Yurovsky and any CHEKA or Soviet involved on the events of 16 / 17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: court121 on August 29, 2004, 11:54:48 PM
I have been reading this discussion board for a few days now, and decided to become a member. I find this particular thread to be extremely interesting. I have a question though. Can anyone go into detail and explain to me why there is such a debate over whether the missing Grand Duchess is Anastasia or Marie? Why do the Americans lean towards one and the Russians another?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on August 30, 2004, 08:57:39 AM
Quote
I have been reading this discussion board for a few days now, and decided to become a member. I find this particular thread to be extremely interesting. I have a question though. Can anyone go into detail and explain to me why there is such a debate over whether the missing Grand Duchess is Anastasia or Marie? Why do the Americans lean towards one and the Russians another?


A good place to read about this in depth is The Romanovs: The Final Chapter by Robert Massie.  It's an excellent book; one of my favorites.

To sum it up in layman terms, the Russians superimposed pictures of the IF over the skulls found outside Ekaterinberg.  By doing so, they were able to identify each of the skulls.  This technique shows one of the skulls being Anastasia's; the the missing GD is Marie.

Dr. Maples, who led the US team, went by (if I remember correctly) the spinal column of the skeletons.  I can't remember the exact details, so if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.  The vertabrae in the spinal column fill in with bone as people age into adulthood.  By the time we're adults this process is complete.  Of the skeletons identified as the GD's, Mapeles says all three had reached that point.  AN, being the youngest, would not have, thus is the missing GD.

Personally, I think it must be hard to tell AN from MN from the bones since they were both so close in age, but then again, who am I?  Certainly no expert, that's for sure.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: court121 on August 30, 2004, 01:23:33 PM
Are these books easy to find? Or did you have to do a lot of searching to find these books? I personally find it kind of difficult to find books that are actually good on these subjects, but it may just be where Im from.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on August 30, 2004, 02:03:58 PM
Quote
Are these books easy to find? Or did you have to do a lot of searching to find these books? I personally find it kind of difficult to find books that are actually good on these subjects, but it may just be where Im from.


You can get The Romanovs: The Final Chapte from amazon.com for about $10 (paperback).  Also, Barnes & Noble will order it for you.  Generally, if a book is still in print, you can order it from any book seller.  If it's out of print, try a used book store (they'll do a search/order for you) or try alibris.com.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on August 30, 2004, 11:18:32 PM
Quote

A good place to read about this in depth is The Romanovs: The Final Chapter by Robert Massie.  It's an excellent book; one of my favorites.

To sum it up in layman terms, the Russians superimposed pictures of the IF over the skulls found outside Ekaterinberg.  By doing so, they were able to identify each of the skulls.  This technique shows one of the skulls being Anastasia's; the the missing GD is Marie.

Dr. Maples, who led the US team, went by (if I remember correctly) the spinal column of the skeletons.  I can't remember the exact details, so if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.  The vertabrae in the spinal column fill in with bone as people age into adulthood.  By the time we're adults this process is complete.  Of the skeletons identified as the GD's, Mapeles says all three had reached that point.  AN, being the youngest, would not have, thus is the missing GD.

Personally, I think it must be hard to tell AN from MN from the bones since they were both so close in age, but then again, who am I?  Certainly no expert, that's for sure.

Alexa


It's something of a canard-though one unfortunately left by Maples himself-that the American teams relied on estimation of height to achieve their verdicts.  In actual fact, the various US experts (and there has been more than 1 team that has studied the remains over the years-the last in 1998) all came to the conclusion that Anastasia was missing based on pelvic and sacrum development; estimation of height; vertebrae development; clavicle development; and forensic odontology and examination of the teeth.  The Russians relied almost exclusively on their photo superimposition.  For more on this and a detailed discussion of the various examinations and contentions, see our last book, "The Fate of the Romanovs," which details all of this at some length and is the most recent and up-to-date account.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on August 31, 2004, 06:28:32 AM
Just curious - from the skeleton in question, were any of the bones from the feet uncovered?

I am curious to know if they were, and if so, if any signs of Anastasia's foot deformity, hallux vulgus, were present.

I'm guessing not, because surely the experts would've mentioned it.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on August 31, 2004, 07:45:35 AM
Quote
Just curious - from the skeleton in question, were any of the bones from the feet uncovered?

I am curious to know if they were, and if so, if any signs of Anastasia's foot deformity, hallux vulgus, were present.

I'm guessing not, because surely the experts would've mentioned it.


Of all the recovered remains, there were only 9 fragments of bones from feet, and these were believed to have come from Skeleton No. 5 (identified by the Russians as Tatiana, by the Americans as Marie).  The extremities of all of the other skeletal remains were never found.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on August 31, 2004, 09:15:05 AM
Quote

It's something of a canard-though one unfortunately left by Maples himself-that the American teams relied on estimation of height to achieve their verdicts.  In actual fact, the various US experts (and there has been more than 1 team that has studied the remains over the years-the last in 1998) all came to the conclusion that Anastasia was missing based on pelvic and sacrum development; estimation of height; vertebrae development; clavicle development; and forensic odontology and examination of the teeth.  The Russians relied almost exclusively on their photo superimposition.  For more on this and a detailed discussion of the various examinations and contentions, see our last book, "The Fate of the Romanovs," which details all of this at some length and is the most recent and up-to-date account.

Greg King


Hi Greg,
I'm actually in the midst of reading Fate of the Romanovs, and am looking forward to reading about the details of the identirication.  Thanks for the head's up.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on August 31, 2004, 11:12:23 PM
Quote

Of all the recovered remains, there were only 9 fragments of bones from feet, and these were believed to have come from Skeleton No. 5 (identified by the Russians as Tatiana, by the Americans as Marie).  The extremities of all of the other skeletal remains were never found.

Greg King


What are the theories as to why so many bones of the extremities are missing?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on September 01, 2004, 12:19:45 AM
Quote

What are the theories as to why so many bones of the extremities are missing?

AGRBear


I've discussed this with the forensic experts; both Maples and Koryakova were puzzled at the lack of sufficient remains-the total number of bones found was enough to amount to roughly 2.5 human skeletons-and no one was able to offer an explanation as to where the rest were.  It remains a conundrum-one of many in this case.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on September 01, 2004, 07:41:29 AM
Quote

What are the theories as to why so many bones of the extremities are missing?

AGRBear


How about the sulfuric acid :( and many years rotting in the ground? When the bones of the supposed old west outlaw Jesse James was dug up for DNA testing because there had been a claimant with a story of escape, there were hardly any bones left, only a small pile, and there had been no acid. In some areas, dug up bodies have been preserved, in others, with the makeup of the soil and the wetness and other factors and conditions over time, some skeletons almost completely dissolve (dust to dust)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on September 01, 2004, 08:37:15 AM
But surely, the acid wouldn't account for so many missing bones (not to mention teeth, which, I believe, are almost indestructible?).

I've often wondered if when they tried to blow up the mine at the Four Brothers (when the bodies were not concealed by the water), if parts of the corpses were destroyed by the grenades?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on September 01, 2004, 09:21:58 AM
Parts of them were also chopped up and either dumped in acid or burned :( I think either one of those things would destroy the finger and toe bones. The teeth may just have 'rotted out' like some people's teeth do from decay. I have a back tooth now that is rotted down to the gum, and they can't pull it without surgery :P

I know it's OT but there's a connection. The American old west had a lot of 'claimants', people who claimed to be one or another outlaw or character who was supposedly killed, then years later, an elderly man would appear claiming to be him, and having 'memories' that could not be explained. I don't know what happened with the Jesse James test, I never heard anything else about it, maybe I missed the reports. I know they were looking for a female descendant of his sister to get some mtDNA. They are also supposed to be digging up Billy the Kid's grave in Arizona, because an old man claimed to be him for years and said he and Pat Garret shot a drunk in the face and buried him in the grave, marked it as Billy, and Billy went on the run and allegedly came back much later, living to age 91! They are supposed to be testing those remains too. Other allegedly 'dead' people with popular claimants were Butch Cassidy, who was supposed to have been shot in Bolivia but his body never found, and even John Wilkes Booth, who shot Lincoln. There are reports that the government shot the wrong man, then covered it up since the real Booth had gotten away and they needed to say they caught him. From reports I've seen, the man shot that night was red headed, Booth was dark haired. Booth also broke  his leg when he jumped to the stage in Ford's theater, the body had no broken bones. A Booth claimant later told a story of how he went west and changed his indentity, also living to old age. They're supposed to do a DNA test on that one too. It should all be interesting to find out.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on September 01, 2004, 10:46:38 AM
No chopping or burning ??? I've always seen so many details on that, even that the fat from the burning bodies melted and made grease on the ground. The brooch given to Alexandra by Nicholas at the party at Ella and Sergei's wedding which she returned, he gave to Xenia, and Xenia gave back to Alix after her wedding was found in the debris, charred and greasy, is that not true? What about the severed finger so well documented? I've heard so much about the bodies being dismemebered, burned, then put in the pit with acid, it all of that false ???

I do believe the acid and something in the soil alone could have caused the smaller bones to dissolve. Maybe the bodies further down had more acid, and that's why a body on top had hair and others did not?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on September 01, 2004, 03:08:06 PM
Perhaps if the grave had been disturbed from the time that it was discovered and the time that it was re-exhumed, something could have gone missing from someone who wanted some kind of morbid suvenier? I have read elsewhere that news of the grave being found leaked out to the KGB and other "authorities". And let's not forget the cable that was laid near the grave. However, I think Penny wrote once before, when I asked her, that the cable probably did little damage to the site. So what happened to all the missing bones from the 9 bodies-- not to mention two whole bodies missing! This is definitley one of the big issues around the grave, I think...somewhere down the list after "why are there only 9 bodies?"
???
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Greg_King on September 02, 2004, 04:18:47 AM
I'm no forensic anthropologist, so I'm only able to relate what Maples and Koryakova said.  Both said specifically that it was highly unusual to find so few bones-Maples especially commented that while it was not unusual for bones to be missing in these cases, he had never seen a case with 9 bodies represented by so few skeletal remains.

Greg King
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alice on September 02, 2004, 06:24:01 AM
So what can we speculate is the explanation for so few remains?

Do you think the grenades used to blow up the mine at the Four Brothers could be responsible?

Perhaps the participants in the murders taking bones as "trophies"? But one would imagine that they wouldn't take random bones, but rather, a skull, or something recognisable.

Perhaps when the cable was laid near the grave in (I think) the 1970s, some of the bones were removed, so as not to interfere with the cable?

Is there any pattern in the bones missing? For example, is it mostly bones of the extremities that are missing, or are the missing bones seemingly random?

I also would not be surprised if the Bolsheviks cut off many of the fingers, to remove valuable rings. Possibly they cut off hands also, to remove bracelets. I remember that the Grand Duchesses all wore bracelets given to them by their parents, which they were permitted to wear in Ipatiev House. Possibly this theory could account for missing bones from hands, but again, it's all speculation.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2004, 08:31:27 AM
It has been mentioned elsewhere- animals might have carried of bits, but this I find unlikely, at least during the disposal phase- too much activity, noise, the fires.
Perhaps a likely
scenario would be taking bits & pieces as either ghoulish souvenirs or [more likely] relics.  Also, just plain sloppiness. These guys were pretty drunk I would imagine. One would most likely have to be to carry on this work.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on September 02, 2004, 02:43:12 PM
Or, as I have suggested before,  I think  one / some /  all bodies were buried elsewhere and brought to this this location later....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2004, 03:21:23 PM
Here is another thought: In other cases of mass political slaughter i.e. Cambodia, Rwanda, Uganda, etc. relatives would risk great danger in trying to retrieve the remains of loved ones for a more respectful [if just as secret] burial. Could not the same have occured in Russia.  However not necessarily trying to retrieve Romanov remains, but by accident getting them instead of whoever was intended?
Just as likely as any of other hypothetical scenario I suppose.
Robert
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Alexa on September 02, 2004, 03:48:32 PM
Quote
Here is another thought: In other cases of mass political slaughter i.e. Cambodia, Rwanda, Uganda, etc. relatives would risk great danger in trying to retrieve the remains of loved ones for a more respectful [if just as secret] burial. Could not the same have occured in Russia.  However not necessarily trying to retrieve Romanov remains, but by accident getting them instead of whoever was intended?
Just as likely as any of other hypothetical scenario I suppose.
Robert


I like the theory, however, I keep remembering what Massie wrote in his book, The Romanovs: The Final Chapter.  I can't remember who Massie indicated as saying this, but someone (maybe Maples?) put the odds at finding a group of people who meet the dynamics of the IF and their retainers buried for approximatly 75 years in the same forest that the above mentioned were supposidly buried in as astronomical.   Personally, I'm leaning towards the theory that the little bones decomposed.

Alexa
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on September 02, 2004, 05:13:23 PM
Quote

I certainly don't find it shocking that so many bones were missing from the Romanov grave. It's not exatly the first time I've heard of such a thing. Annie, you provided a good example. Also, do you remember the high profile case of Jennifer Short, the little girl who was abducted from her home here in Virginia and found dead a month later? Only 30 percent of her bones were recovered, so I'm not stunned over the fact that -- after 70 years -- many of the Imperial Family's bones weren't found.


Thanks AnastasiaFan. I remember that story too. Poor kid :(  I have heard some ghoulish stories of bodies being moved, usually because a graveyard was being moved, or even someone moving a pet when they moved, and many times half the body had rotted away. When I was a kid, I had a pet turtle who died and I buried him in the flower garden out back. Two years later, his box was accidently dug up by a family member doing some planting. There was hardly anything  left of him:(  I have some stories of humans being moved but they are much worse. People buried in pine boxes years ago often decayed with the box. The guys on the show where they dug up Jesse James didn't seem surprised to find few bones left. A long time in the ground will do that. (and I also think the attempts to destroy the bodies made this even more likely)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2004, 05:55:19 PM
Many years ago, most of the cemeteries in San Francisco were dug up and moved to the peninsula town of Colma.  SF being an old city, a lot of those graves were in less than perfect shape. Many, if not most were reburied "mass style" with the original markers laid neatly in rows above.
The reason for this was explained as "health concerns" but, in a foretaste of the future, it was more likely land speculation as the only ones left were at the old Mission and the Presidio military cemetary.
Colma has the dubious honor of now having more dead "residents" than live, and at one time I think was even involved in a vote scandal. This latter may have been just a joke however.
 So there is really not much of a mystery of bones getting messed about, lost, purloined, whatever.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on September 03, 2004, 11:11:20 AM
It was not my thoughts about there being too few bones in the grave in Pig's Meadow, it was the experts involved.

Let me repeat King's statement:
Quote
I'm no forensic anthropologist, so I'm only able to relate what Maples and Koryakova said.  Both said specifically that it was highly unusual to find so few bones-Maples especially commented that while it was not unusual for bones to be missing in these cases, he had never seen a case with 9 bodies represented by so few skeletal remains.
Greg King



AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on September 05, 2004, 10:33:48 PM
Quote
 [In Part] ...I've often wondered if when they tried to blow up the mine at the Four Brothers (when the bodies were not concealed by the water), if parts of the corpses were destroyed by the grenades?


According to Yurovsky's testimony of 1934:
"We had the idea of blowing up the mines with bombs to cover them, but nothing came of it."

Was there different testimony from someone else who said they did use grenades?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2004, 10:55:35 AM
The only other reference we have found is from "Kudrin", who says that Yurovsky brought a box of grenades "for this purpose" but they decided against using them for fear of alarming or alerting nearby peasants with explosions.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: TheLionandTheEagle on September 07, 2004, 07:45:03 PM
Ok...Im ready to give my 2 cents on this one.

~I really want to believe that someone survived, but I really dont think its possible.  I sure as heck wish it was, though.

~I dont think any bodies were burned.  Think about it.  Its just more trouble.  You already have a big pit.  Why wouldnt you just throw two more bodies into the pit?

~This begs the question "What does skatepixie think happened to the other two, then?"  I think they fell off the truck.  I mean, then men were drunk, and they could have easily not loaded things well.  Then, later on, they felt need to lie about it and an easy way to do that would be to say that the bodies were burned.
~I think Tatiana is the missing girl. None of the girls that were found were as tall as Tatiana, and the one labled as her seems to be built more like Maria.  The one labled as Maria is really Anastasia. www.livadia.org/missing

I think thats about it...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on September 09, 2004, 11:09:00 AM
Skatepixie and her two friends have written a very interesting opinion about the missing grand duchess and how they think it might be Tatiana.   If you can find the time,  I recommended you check out their site:   www.livadia.org/missing

"Our question is: Who Is Missing?

~Alia, Mikki & Lishka~"

Thanks.

AGRBear

* Correction:  Evidently skatepixie was not one of the authors.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on September 09, 2004, 11:41:23 AM
Quote
Skatepixie and her two friends have written a very interesting opinion about the missing grand duchess and how they think it might be Tatiana.   If you can find the time,  I recommended you check out their site:   www.livadia.org/missing

"Our question is: Who Is Missing?

~Alia, Mikki & Lishka~"

Thanks.

AGRBear


That is very interesting! A lot of work went into that and the authors should be proud!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Lanie on September 09, 2004, 12:50:47 PM
Note--Skatepixie had nothing to do with writing that. ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 13, 2004, 11:03:13 AM
Well, since the serious claimant thread is locked and we were all directed to this thread in order to talk about any of the Romanovs surviving, I'm posting here.  I must say how appalled I am at "The Four Musketeers" (I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist ::)) who got VERY out of hand on the serious claimant website.  Being so incredibly hypocritical as to lecture on their soapboxes that we should all be civil, and then turning right around and being so downright NASTY!!! :o :o :o It was truly amazing and disheartening.  Apparently they think that anyone with a belief or conviction that one/two/etc of the family escaped (however I'm only convinced that one or two made it) is a claimant themselves and begin to slander and demean and belittle them to a very disgusting point.  AGRBear, you're not alone (as you know of course ;))!  My mind is telling me that I better not touch the fire, but my heart is saying that I should help to stick up for the "victims", I guess you could say, of this merciless bunch.  Honestly, just because someone has a different opinion! >:(  Grow up.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 13, 2004, 11:34:07 AM
Michelle
Please Please lets just let all these ugly accusations go... Best to move on.
rskkiya :D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 13, 2004, 12:49:57 PM
As I have mentioned on this thread and others,  some of us do believe one, two or more, maybe even all, did not die on the night of 16 / 17  July 1918 in the Ipatiev House.

Over and over  it's been asked of us to present evidence to prove our  opinions.   Over and over I've voiced that there was a "cover up" and just about all the evidence has been destroyed under the direction of  the Ural Soviets, CHEKA, Lenin, Stalin, GPU, KGB, etc.. Added to the cover-up's success,  the Bolshevik and later the communists has had a huge amount of "time" to find, misdirect and change documents, and, all those involved have died.  If they haven't then they are over a 100 years old if they had been say 15 years old or older.  And,  I assume anyone who was part of the staff, guards, etc. were older than 15.

Our family has an old saying,  "You can not get juice out of a dried up old beet."  And this "cold case" is exactly like an old dried up beet.

The only book that ever step "out of the box" was Summers and Mangold.  And,  they probably created more questions than they answered.

I have mentioned the events which occured in Perm,  the searching of the trains, and, others have mentioned people who may have seen one or all of the Royal Family after 16 July 1918.

According to King,  Wilson and others,  this is not evidence which shows enough teeth to even consider.  So, let me repeat, when you're dealing with a "cover up" and a very very "cold case"  the only evidence may be just bites and pieces.  

I don't know if any of you have ever pan a stream for gold.  The water is swished around and around in a pan filled with sand and tiny pebbles and if the sun strikes just right you might see a tiny flake of something shinny and gold in color.  You get excited.  But you have no idea if it's real gold or  "fool's gold".   You let an expert  test the flakes to see which it is.

For me, searching for evidence is a great deal like working a stream looking for the gold and not the "fool's gold" with a pan that about twenty inches across and it will take a long long time to hunt in a stream.  And,  this is just one stream of thousands.

A very very few actually find enough gold in the streams in California to even show a friend,  just as those of us looking for evidence of a survivor do not have enough to show a friend or those on this thread.

There is no need to redicule us in our search.  Sometimes,  it's just the fun of the search rather than striking it rich.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 13, 2004, 12:53:23 PM
AGRBear, the website you mentioned was very interesting.  With reference to OTMA's height, I question their assumptions.  If we look at the Tsars structure, his height I would imagin to be 5feet 4 or 5 inches no taller. Most of the photos taken of Nicholas in captivity with his children, Olga and Anastasia look the shortest while Maria looks about the same height as her father and Tatiana looks a couple of inches taller.  So, I calculate Olga's height to be around 5'2 or 3" no more and Anastasia around 5'.

My point is that from this observation, I am sure that Olga and Anastasia are the missing bodies.  


Quote
Skatepixie and her two friends have written a very interesting opinion about the missing grand duchess and how they think it might be Tatiana.   If you can find the time,  I recommended you check out their site:   www.livadia.org/missing

"Our question is: Who Is Missing?

~Alia, Mikki & Lishka~"

Thanks.

AGRBear

* Correction:  Evidently skatepixie was not one of the authors.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 13, 2004, 01:27:06 PM
Hello
  Well as I promoised I went to the library and examined both Mr Richards "The Hunt for the Tsar" and Ms McNeals "The Secret plot to save the Tsar". I read them both, looking for evidence, accuracy and historiocity (the "science" of composing and analizing history) and I was disappointed.
  Mr Richards book examines another book-- supposedly a spy novel from the 20's called "Rescuing the Tsar " He suggests that this is not a novel but an actual report from a mysterious spymaster who in fact rescued the IF...However the basis for his conclusions are rather shaky  --His arguement is that BECAUSE everyone associated with the innitial "spy story" have either claimed it was only a yarn or have outright refused to associate themselves with the book after the fact--makes it all TRUE! This is not valid historical logic -- it is conspiricy thinking. Mr Richards also seems to think that the Russian Orthodox Church, Mr Goleniewski (an ex polish secret agent and claimant as Alexie) the legends of a Tsarist fortune and various "KGB Stooges" are all involved. His final premise is that the Romanovs survived because a badly written piece of 1920s pulp fiction said they escaped - is week and ill founded. He relates that because so many people don't believe this notion-- that THIS VERY REJECTION is proof of its truth.
   Ms McNeals book is equally influenced by this spy story" She has discovered that "hatch marks" in a wall of the Ipatiev House -- when examined in a mirror look like the Roman letters LYSV * which she extrapolates as a sign that the family were going to be transfered to the village of Lysva near Perm. Why any family member would go to such lengths to cut these letters into a wall is not discussed and in my opinion there is no justification in guessing that these rather convoluted shapes mean anything at all. Ms Mcneal seems to use the "Nonfalsifiability factor" in a lot of her research..But sadly simply because one cannot prove that something DID NOT happen that does not mean that it DID happen.
While I can understand why some members here might have enjoyed these books sadly they are not valid historical documents.

I possess an MA in History so I am somewhat familiar with the topic of Historiocity.

Rskkiya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 13, 2004, 02:54:54 PM
Hello rskkiya, glad you read the two books, I'm not surprised at your response. In anycase you were open minded enough to read them. :) Thank you.

However, I agree with Mr. Richard's thinking that the Russian Orthodox Church, Mr. Goleniewski could have been invovlved along with others.  Would you know Mr. Goleniewski's christian name?  It would help me with my research.

At some point many years ago, there was a fortune to be had and has now perished through the hands and demands of the Russian governement.  Would you say that the people of Russia benefited.

"Rescuing the Tsar".  Ahhhh...I have been trying to find a copy but that's one elusive book I'd love to have a copy of.

There is one more book written by a historian and authority on British Military Intelligence in the First World War.  Who investigated the disappearance of the Russian Imperial Family.  The Book is 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw. Have you read that?

McNeal's book is in my view another good book with lots of information that lead to more unresolved questions pointing to a possible escape. No matter what you say, I cannot ignore what she says.

The Russians claim that they have historical proof. What is it?  As I mentioned before, just hear say and speculations of events that are very confusing and also themselves lead nowhere from soldiers and government spin.  Photos of bodies lying in the street, impossible to identify.  We have only thier word.  To me that isn't historial proof nor is it enough to close the book on the IF.  They would have to dig up those missing bodies and do a DNA test on them, I'm talking about the princes the three brothers and Ella.  Until her DNA is verified she's missing too.

For all we know some of them or all could have survived!  They could have helped some of the children escape.  This is what we have to find out.  

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 13, 2004, 03:11:38 PM
Goleniewsky- first name Michael. He is covered by Massie in ...Final Chapter, pgs 149-156
Fortune? What fortune ? to be claimed by whom?
See Clarke- THE LOST FORTUNE OF THE TSARS. It remains the conclusive reprt on that matter.
Robert
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 13, 2004, 03:17:37 PM
"At some point many years ago, there was a fortune to be had and has now perished through the hands and demands of the Russian governement.  Would you say that the people of Russia benefited. "

There was NO huge personal fortune outside Russia. As Robert said, "The Lost Fortune of the Tsars" followed all the money. What little personal money there was went to Xenia and the family. The rest of the money did not "perish through the hands and demands of the Russian government". The vast majority of it was used to pay off the international creditors of the Tsarist and Provisional regimes. There were huge debts owing from fighting WWI.

Please, get the facts before you make sweeping generalizations.
 
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 13, 2004, 03:20:44 PM
Candace, with all due respect, I think you have your heights wrong for  OTMA.  Tatiana was most certainly the tallest and I'd put her at around six feet or a little over, and also because I know I read that somewhere....:-/ Forgive me as I cannot remember the source. :-[  Maria I'd place a little shorter than Tatiana, and so maybe like five nine ( I say Tatiana's six feet).  Olga was MUCH taller than only five two.  I'd put her at five six, also because I'm sure I read that somewhere too.....And Anastasia was probably five one or two.  And the Tsar himself I'd say is definitely taller than I am (I'm five four).  I'd put him at five seven.  Olga must've been five six because she also (like Tatiana and Maria) just plain towered over Anastasia.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 13, 2004, 03:58:46 PM
Michelle, I'm sorry but I disagree with you.  If you see Nicholas and George V together, Nicholas is slightly shorter.  George V is no taller than 5'6".  The Tsar at best is 5'4 or 5'5".  Tatiana would not be 6 feet.  GD Michael was 6 feet.  At best Tatiana would have been 5'7. Olga looks, (if you look at the photos) smaller than her father. I'd say about a couple of inches, which would make her tops 5' 2 or 3".  Anastasia was no more than 5' or 5'1 and that's stretching it.

You have high expectations Michelle. The IF was quite small apart from Alexandra and Tatiana the rest of the children took after the Tsar Nicholas in height.  Nicholas's children other than Tatiana were quite petite. We're talking about height here and only the IF.

Anastasia was described by her mother in one of her letters as being broad and short.  Regardless, she was beautiful and very attractive.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lilavanderhorn on October 13, 2004, 04:20:19 PM
Quote
Candace, with all due respect, I think you have your heights wrong for  OTMA.  Tatiana was most certainly the tallest and I'd put her at around six feet or a little over, and also because I know I read that somewhere....:-/ Forgive me as I cannot remember the source. :-[  Maria I'd place a little shorter than Tatiana, and so maybe like five nine ( I say Tatiana's six feet).  Olga was MUCH taller than only five two.  I'd put her at five six, also because I'm sure I read that somewhere too.....And Anastasia was probably five one or two.  And the Tsar himself I'd say is definitely taller than I am (I'm five four).  I'd put him at five seven.  Olga must've been five six because she also (like Tatiana and Maria) just plain towered over Anastasia.  




With all due respect Michelle, where in the heck did you read this?  As far as I have read, Tatiana was about 5'7, her father was about 5'6..  I am 5'6 and my dad  is 5'6, but I look taller than him because I wear heels sometimes, so who knows, maybe she was 5'6 1/2.  As for Anastasia, I don't think she was that short, but in comparison to her sisters she was.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 13, 2004, 04:59:13 PM
Penny's photo:
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/lysv.jpg)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 13, 2004, 05:03:19 PM
Quote

When Greg and I were researching FOTR, we experienced a most amazing piece of serendipity in connection with the LYSV inscription.

We were, of course, aware of the inscription, but we thought that it went a little beyond the scope of our book and a little too far into speculative, conspiracy-theorist territory -- especially as we could find no evidence AT ALL that any Romanov was in Lysva in the high summer of 1918.

Then one day, Greg had the History Channel on the television, and on came a documentary about the Siege of Sidney Street, a failed burglary attempt in London's East End in 1910.  The crime was carried out by a group of Latvians, all of whom belonged to a revolutionary organization called "Lysma," meaning "The Flame."

Subsequent investigation turned up evidence that showed Lysma was fairly closely tied to the exiled Russian revolutionaries in London -- even attending secret meetings with prominent Bolsheviks -- and, indeed, throughout many European cities.

Long story short, Lysma was still heavily active in 1918, especially in Russia, where the Latvian revolutionaries were busily out-fiercing many of the Bolsheviks.  Lenin himself was surrounded by a Latvian Guard, they being considered more dedicated and reliable in the revolutionary cause than most Russian regiments.

It may also be remembered that Yurovsky brought several Latvians and Baltic Letts  into the house with him, and these men used the murder room as a dormitory until the night of the murder.  It seemed most likely to Greg and I that this inscription was placed there by an off-duty Latvian guard, tagging the room with the name of his own revolutionary organization.  There were several other pieces of graffiti in the room -- and indeed, throughout the house --  not only this one and the Belshazzar one. The initial investigators believed that they were merely the off-duty artwork of bored guards.

I have a pretty decent photograph of the inscription that I will forward to the FA.  Perhaps he could post it so that you peeps could take a look...


Penny,  you can't even imagine how this information on the LYSV interests me.

I am sending one thousand thank yous your way!!!

AGRBear
;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on October 13, 2004, 06:14:59 PM
Quote
Hello rskkiya, glad you read the two books, I'm not surprised at your response. In anycase you were open minded enough to read them. :) Thank you.

However, I agree with Mr. Richard's thinking that the Russian Orthodox Church, Mr. Goleniewski could have been invovlved along with others.  Would you know Mr. Goleniewski's christian name?  It would help me with my research.

At some point many years ago, there was a fortune to be had and has now perished through the hands and demands of the Russian governement.  Would you say that the people of Russia benefited.

"Rescuing the Tsar".  Ahhhh...I have been trying to find a copy but that's one elusive book I'd love to have a copy of.

There is one more book written by a historian and authority on British Military Intelligence in the First World War.  Who investigated the disappearance of the Russian Imperial Family.  The Book is 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw. Have you read that?

McNeal's book is in my view another good book with lots of information that lead to more unresolved questions pointing to a possible escape. No matter what you say, I cannot ignore what she says.

The Russians claim that they have historical proof. What is it?  As I mentioned before, just hear say and speculations of events that are very confusing and also themselves lead nowhere from soldiers and government spin.  Photos of bodies lying in the street, impossible to identify.  We have only thier word.  To me that isn't historial proof nor is it enough to close the book on the IF.  They would have to dig up those missing bodies and do a DNA test on them, I'm talking about the princes the three brothers and Ella.  Until her DNA is verified she's missing too.

For all we know some of them or all could have survived!  They could have helped some of the children escape.  This is what we have to find out.  



I, too am glad that Ryskkiya has reported back on these books, and Candice, I do hope you are aware that many of the "opposition" have actually read these books, some time ago, as a matter of fact.  I have even spoken at length on several occasoins with Shay McNeal about her book.

What is absolutely amazing to me, though, is that you were given a professional historian's response by Ryskkiya and at least a couple others on this board, in some cases these historians have taken the time to explain to you the techniques and tools the historian uses to form a judgment about the quality and worthiness of given material, and you *still* insist that these books should be taken seriously!  A relative of the publisher of the "spy novel" has also affirmed what historians have already stated!

It's clear that you are a lover of history, and I applaud that.  I can promise you that should you decide to pursue a *career* in history, you will see this situation in a very different light.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 13, 2004, 06:38:29 PM
Well, guys, I have to disagree with you on the whole height issue.  I'm sorry, but Tatiana looks like a giant, and there's no way that Olga could only be five three/two.  I just cannot remember for the life of me where I read it, but I'm pretty sure it was in multiple places.  Penny, since the bones you said were "cut," and the tallest was five seven with the cuts, wouldn't that lead one to conclude that the person was somewhat taller?  I'm not doubting you, and I have the greatest respect for you and Greg--and that thing you mentioned re: the graffiti was fascinating BTW!! :D  

Candace--"High expectations?"  Where did that come from?  And what difference does it make what I think their heights were? There's one particular picture that comes to mind, and you'll see what I mean.

(http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/otmafront1913_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lilavanderhorn on October 13, 2004, 06:54:00 PM
Don't you think that if Tatiana was really 6 ft tall we would have heard more about it?  And yes, she looks tall in the photos, but there is no real way you can judge height by looking at a picture like that alone.  As for Anastasia, I think she might have grown some more from that picture, so she was not that short.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Jane on October 13, 2004, 07:08:31 PM
Quote
Penny, since the bones you said were "cut," and the tallest was five seven with the cuts, wouldn't that lead one to conclude that the person was somewhat taller?


As Penny pointed out, according to Dr. Maples, only an inch or so (at most, it sounds) would have been affected by the cuts.  Given that Dr. Maples is one of the preeminent scientists in his field...well, I have to say I think pegging Tatiana at 5'7" is about as accurate as we're going to get.

Although maybe someone from the Time Machine thread could go back in time and measure the height of the members of the IF.   :D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 13, 2004, 08:39:22 PM
Quote
Hello rskkiya, glad you read the two books, I'm not surprised at your response. In anycase you were open minded enough to read them. :) Thank you.

However, I agree with Mr. Richard's thinking that the Russian Orthodox Church, Mr. Goleniewski could have been invovlved along with others.  Would you know Mr. Goleniewski's christian name?  It would help me with my research.

At some point many years ago, there was a fortune to be had and has now perished through the hands and demands of the Russian governement.  Would you say that the people of Russia benefited.

"Rescuing the Tsar".  Ahhhh...I have been trying to find a copy but that's one elusive book I'd love to have a copy of.

There is one more book written by a historian and authority on British Military Intelligence in the First World War.  Who investigated the disappearance of the Russian Imperial Family.  The Book is 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw. Have you read that?

McNeal's book is in my view another good book with lots of information that lead to more unresolved questions pointing to a possible escape. No matter what you say, I cannot ignore what she says.

The Russians claim that they have historical proof. What is it?  As I mentioned before, just hear say and speculations of events that are very confusing and also themselves lead nowhere from soldiers and government spin.  Photos of bodies lying in the street, impossible to identify.  We have only thier word.  To me that isn't historial proof nor is it enough to close the book on the IF.  They would have to dig up those missing bodies and do a DNA test on them, I'm talking about the princes the three brothers and Ella.  Until her DNA is verified she's missing too.

For all we know some of them or all could have survived!  They could have helped some of the children escape.  This is what we have to find out.  


Candice?  Did you not understand my post? I have done my very best to explain that the theories in these books make no logical sence...but you are still convinced --- Dear there is no viable evidence presented in either of these books for the suggestion that anyone excaped or survived...OK?

Rskkiya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 14, 2004, 07:25:50 PM
While everyone is trying to make up their mind on height,  I stumbled over this newspaper articles, which I didn't date.  The headline is:

Nun says 2 of czar's children got pope's help

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/NunOlgaAnaNewsp.jpg)
>>Rome (UPI) - The nun who was Pope Pius XII's housekeeper said that two daughters of Czar Nicholas II escaped death in the Russian Revolution and turned to the pope for financial help, the newspaper II Tempo reported today.
>>Sister Pascalina Lehnert told a Peruvian monk she met the Grand Duchesses Olga and Maria at the Vatican where Pope Pius received them secretly and gave them money, the newspaper said.
>>"From the start I knew the idenity of the two princesses, "Sister Pascalina was quoted as saying. "Before the audience with the holy father they came to see me.  Princess Olga talked to me of the need in which they found themselves.
>>At the end of the audience with the holy father I myself asked the pope if it really was the Grand Duchesses of Russia Olga and Maria and the holy father told me, "Yes, it is indeed they."
>>Brother Fernando Lamas Pereyra de Castro confirmed by telephone to Vatican reporters that Sister Pascalina recounted the story March 22 in a Rome rest homeand authozied him to make it public after her death.
>>She died at the age of 89 in Vienna of a cerebral hemorrhage Sunday after collaspsing on a plane taking her to Austria for ceremonies marking the 25h anniversary of Pius' death.
<<Rev. Robert Graham, a Jesuit historian who has written extensiviely on 20th century Vatician affairs, said he doubted the story and that the nun might have been confused over names.
>>"There is no consistency in the idea that the daughters of the czar saw the pope in secret," Graham said.  "How can it be kept secret that the daughters of the czar are still alive?  It is a legend fed by Russian exiles."
>>Pereyra de Castro, however, said he found the nun "perfectly clear and lucid" and her mind unaffected by the fact that she suffered from arterioscierosis.
>>Sister Pascalina said the pope also "got in touch with" Queen Elena, wife of King Victor Emmanuel of Italy, to discuss wqays of helping support the grand duchessses.
>>Grahan said this did not ring true.  "The world of monarchists is a closed one and I don't see why they would need to be presented by the pope, " he said.
>>Sister Pascalina said she could not remember the dates of the audiences because "so many years have passed and I am so old."  Victor Emmanuel was king of Italy from 1900 to 1946.

Sister Pascalina, born in Bavaria in 1894 and a member of the Order of the Sisters of the Holy Cross of Menzingen became Msgr. Eugenio Paceili's housekeeper when he was a papal nuncio in Munich.  She went with him to the Vatican and was considered a powerful figure during his reign as pope from 1939 to 1958.
>>Several recent books contend that the Bolsheviks execut4ed only Czar Nicholas and Czarevich Alexis July 16, 1918, at Ekatkerinburg, now Sverdiovsk, and that Czarina Alexandra, were taken to Perm from where some of them escaped.
>>Il Temp said Grand Ducnesses olga and Maria died in Italy just over 10 years ago.
>>A West German court threw out the claim of Anna Anderson, now the wife of a U.S. Doctor, to be Grand Ducness Anatasia.<<
San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle  [accidently cut off date, however,   with the mention of "Perm",  is suspect it's after Mangold and Summer's book File on the Tsar.  If anyone knows the death date of the Pope and adds 25 years,  you'd also have the date].

Just thought you'd like to read this article.  I have no comment.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 14, 2004, 07:29:45 PM
Wait!
The Romanovs were Russian Orthodox.... Why would they go to the POPE?

What magazine was this printed in? The New York Times or the National Inquirer?

Rskkiya.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 14, 2004, 08:07:00 PM
Do not fret too much over dear Sister Pascalina.  "La Popessa" came up with a lot of bizarre stories about her dear Pius XII [she had been his houekeeper for decades].  She was a bit "touched" and was babbling all sorts of things to further the beatification cause [of the Pope].  She died in 1983, I think.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 14, 2004, 09:25:51 PM
Since I haven't followed in depth any of the claimants,  I have no answers on this article accept I had read it, cut it out of the newspaper and threw it in a "odd box".

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 15, 2004, 11:41:24 AM
Absolutely FASCINATING, AGR!!!!! :D  You come up with great stuff! ;D  

Hmmmmmm.............it said that Olga and Maria died in Italy..................Didn't that Marga Boodts live in Lake Como, Italy????????  Very----interesting. ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 15, 2004, 11:54:24 AM
Quote
Do not fret too much over dear Sister Pascalina.  "La Popessa" came up with a lot of bizarre stories about her dear Pius XII [she had been his houekeeper for decades].  She was a bit "touched" and was babbling all sorts of things to further the beatification cause [of the Pope].  She died in 1983, I think.
Cheers,
Robert

Michelle -- I wouldn't take a lot of this POPE stuff too seriously... This old yarn has been around for donkey's years and there is no other evidence to prove it... Like Elvis still being alive (but in hiding) its just a corny old Urban Legend!
R

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Merrique on October 15, 2004, 12:20:11 PM
What!You mean Elivs isn't alive? ???
I coulda swore I saw him walking across my swimming pool this summer. ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 15, 2004, 02:28:04 PM
Quote
Michelle -- I wouldn't take a lot of this POPE stuff too seriously... This old yarn has been around for donkey's years and there is no other evidence to prove it... Like Elvis still being alive (but in hiding) its just a corny old Urban Legend!
R




What is old news to us, may not be to others.

Explain "this Pope stuff".   I do not know what you mean.  Were there other stories?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 15, 2004, 02:44:23 PM
AGRB--
Please read Mr Halls earlier post...I have to return to the Thirty Years War--
R
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 15, 2004, 09:15:57 PM
Quote
Do not fret too much over dear Sister Pascalina.  "La Popessa" came up with a lot of bizarre stories about her dear Pius XII [she had been his houekeeper for decades].  She was a bit "touched" and was babbling all sorts of things to further the beatification cause [of the Pope].  She died in 1983, I think.
Cheers,
Robert


If this housekeeper was always telling stories,  why was it picked up by the news in Rome which in turn ended up in a San Francisco newspaper?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 15, 2004, 09:29:29 PM
UPI=United Press International, news wire service, could have been picked up by any subscribing newspaper in the world.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on October 16, 2004, 01:13:33 AM
Quote
If this housekeeper was always telling stories,  why was it picked up by the news in Rome which in turn ended up in a San Francisco newspaper?


Newspapers never let the truth get in the way of a good story.   ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 16, 2004, 08:32:55 AM
I would like to hear people's theories regarding what happened to the two bodies missing from the mass grave.

One theory that has been offered is that these two bodies (Anastasia's and Alexei's) simply fell off the truck and were never recovered. I find this hard to believe, for a variety of reasons. According to Helen of Serbia, the Bolsheviks were already searching for a missing grand duchess approximately four hours after the truck carrying the bodies left the Ipatiev House. Surely the first thing they would have done is to retrace their route!

Furthermore, it's unlikely that anyone else could have come across the bodies in the meantime (who else would have been awake in the early hours before dawn on July 17, and wandering along Koptyaki Road?). Even if this had happened, the person in question would not have had sufficient time (much less the right equipment along with him!) to bury the bodies right then and there.

Finally, if the bodies were simply left there, undiscovered -- the Whites took Ekaterinburg only eight days later, and would surely have found them (or traces of them) during the course of their investigation.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 16, 2004, 08:39:29 AM
Elisabeth,
this question must be started as a new thread, specifically for "theories". This thread is about facts, not "what ifs"
thanks.
FA
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 16, 2004, 02:54:10 PM
Oops, sorry! Please remember that I'm a newbie! While it's true that two bodies were missing from the mass grave, I can understand how asking where they might have got to really is speculative and belongs to another thread... so I will start one.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 16, 2004, 05:36:06 PM
Penny, thank you for your advice.

Candice






Quote

If I were you, I'd start a thread on the Books Forum.  The daughter-in-law of the original publisher posts here from time to time, and I know that a few years ago, she offered reprints for sale trhough Atlantis magazine.  I do NOT know if she still has any, but a thread in the Books Forum would be likely to catch her eye.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 16, 2004, 05:46:04 PM
Dashkova, thank you for your response.  I read these books and others from my University liabrary before deciding to buy them.  I would appreciate your choice suggestion of historical books I can read on this subject.

Candice



Quote

I, too am glad that Ryskkiya has reported back on these books, and Candice, I do hope you are aware that many of the "opposition" have actually read these books, some time ago, as a matter of fact.  I have even spoken at length on several occasoins with Shay McNeal about her book.

What is absolutely amazing to me, though, is that you were given a professional historian's response by Ryskkiya and at least a couple others on this board, in some cases these historians have taken the time to explain to you the techniques and tools the historian uses to form a judgment about the quality and worthiness of given material, and you *still* insist that these books should be taken seriously!  A relative of the publisher of the "spy novel" has also affirmed what historians have already stated!

It's clear that you are a lover of history, and I applaud that.  I can promise you that should you decide to pursue a *career* in history, you will see this situation in a very different light.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 16, 2004, 06:14:37 PM
rskkiya, thank you for your post.  Most of the books that I have read on this subject cover similar investigations and reporting.  The two books that you chose to read may not make logical sense to you but they do to me.  Not everything in the books is truth ofcourse.  But some of the information is credible and very possible.  Lets face it, there's still information being published on the possibility of at least two of the Tsars daughters(Olga and Anastasia in my opinion) escaping.  Italy sound credible too!





Quote
Candice?  Did you not understand my post? I have done my very best to explain that the theories in these books make no logical sence...but you are still convinced --- Dear there is no viable evidence presented in either of these books for the suggestion that anyone excaped or survived...OK?

Rskkiya

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: pushkina on October 16, 2004, 11:43:52 PM
Quote
<snip> Tatiana was most certainly the tallest and I'd put her at around six feet or a little over, and also because I know I read that somewhere....


that means that she was as tall as michael alex. her uncle.  anyone ever see a photo with the two of them in frame?

and what about photos with her regiment?  i seem to remember a photo of T & O in their regimental uniforms, together, and the height difference was not remarkable.

has anyone measured the girls' court gowns on display in the hermitage, i believe?  the dress lengths would be accurate predictors as to height.

it is true that romanovs were usually tall but six feet would have been unusual and would have been reported and constantly commented upon. with all the memoirists at court, daily medical visits, the contemporary foreign press, someone would have mentioned such an unusual height.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Arleen on October 17, 2004, 01:18:33 AM
It is 2:00 o'clock in the morning here and I thought my eyes surely must be deceiving me.....Tatiana 6 feet tall!!  Where in the world did that come from.....Nicholas II was 5'7'' tall and she couldn't have been but an inch or so more than he....it was only his Father Alexander III, his Uncles and his brother Michael who were 6ft. and over.  Nicholas must have taken after his tiny mother.
At any rate Rob, please put us straight.......Arleen
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 17, 2004, 09:51:53 AM
Quote
rskkiya, thank you for your post.  Most of the books that I have read on this subject cover similar investigations and reporting.  The two books that you chose to read may not make logical sense to you but they do to me.  Not everything in the books is truth ofcourse.  But some of the information is credible and very possible.  Lets face it, there's still information being published on the possibility of at least two of the Tsars daughters(Olga and Anastasia in my opinion) escaping.  Italy sound credible too!



Well Candice
  I feel certain that you must be familiar with the wise words of the famous American enteprenuer- Mr. P.T. Barnum...
Rskkiya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Candice on October 17, 2004, 04:53:55 PM
Rskkiya, got ya!  In this day and age there's one born every 10 seconds.

Regards
Candice
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 17, 2004, 05:40:10 PM
Candice: As has been pointed out to you and to others, there is a vast difference between what is possible and what is probable. We have accounted for all but one grand duchess and Alexis. For you to say that there is a credible chance of two grand duchesses surviving the murder is beyond the scope of probability.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 17, 2004, 06:12:05 PM
And what would make Italy more "probable" than an Arizona desert town or an exile village in the Argentine Allps?
Sr. Pascalina was thouroughly discredited in her wild statements re: Pius XII, namely about contradictory claims involving the Pope & Hitler. Her small "contribution" to the Romanov tales was never taken seriously. She was senile & dieing by that time.
Her main claim to fame was a book [ by Paul Murphy] and a segment on 60 Minutes. The Vatican itself even disassociated itself fromher "claims".
Cheers
Robert

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 17, 2004, 07:09:16 PM
Quote
And what would make Italy more "probable" than an Arizona desert town or an exile village in the Argentine Allps?
Sr. Pascalina was thouroughly discredited in her wild statements re: Pius XII, namely about contradictory claims involving the Pope & Hitler. Her small "contribution" to the Romanov tales was never taken seriously. She was senile & dieing by that time.
Her main claim to fame was a book [ by Paul Murphy] and a segment on 60 Minutes. The Vatican itself even disassociated itself fromher "claims".

Cheers
Robert


Who discredited her?  Pius XII,  the Catholic church.....?

What book did Paul Murphy write and why was he on 60 Minutes.  Was it about the Catholic Church, the housekeeper, Hitler????

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 17, 2004, 07:29:51 PM
The book was LA POPESSA [1984?]. You will have to read it to find about about the Hitler stuff, that has nothing to do with the Romanovs. The nun was causing a stir because at the time she was being used in the campaign to have Pius  beatified. The Vatican distanced itself from her because she just was not making sense, doing more harm than good in the Pius "cause".
I do not remember all the details on the 60Minutes story.
Sorry now I even brought it up.
R.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 17, 2004, 08:21:04 PM
Thank you Robert.
Now, if anyone wants to discover more, they can find the source.

Have a good evening.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 18, 2004, 11:56:05 AM
Quote
Michelle -- I wouldn't take a lot of this POPE stuff too seriously... This old yarn has been around for donkey's years and there is no other evidence to prove it... Like Elvis still being alive (but in hiding) its just a corny old Urban Legend!
R



Rskkiya, I never said I believed it.  ;)  Nevertheless, it is still rather fascinating, no matter what you say.  ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 18, 2004, 05:50:56 PM
Quote

When Greg and I were researching FOTR, we experienced a most amazing piece of serendipity in connection with the LYSV inscription.

We were, of course, aware of the inscription, but we thought that it went a little beyond the scope of our book and a little too far into speculative, conspiracy-theorist territory -- especially as we could find no evidence AT ALL that any Romanov was in Lysva in the high summer of 1918.

Then one day, Greg had the History Channel on the television, and on came a documentary about the Siege of Sidney Street, a failed burglary attempt in London's East End in 1910.  The crime was carried out by a group of Latvians, all of whom belonged to a revolutionary organization called "Lysma," meaning "The Flame."

Subsequent investigation turned up evidence that showed Lysma was fairly closely tied to the exiled Russian revolutionaries in London -- even attending secret meetings with prominent Bolsheviks -- and, indeed, throughout many European cities.

Long story short, Lysma was still heavily active in 1918, especially in Russia, where the Latvian revolutionaries were busily out-fiercing many of the Bolsheviks.  Lenin himself was surrounded by a Latvian Guard, they being considered more dedicated and reliable in the revolutionary cause than most Russian regiments.

It may also be remembered that Yurovsky brought several Latvians and Baltic Letts  into the house with him, and these men used the murder room as a dormitory until the night of the murder.  It seemed most likely to Greg and I that this inscription was placed there by an off-duty Latvian guard, tagging the room with the name of his own revolutionary organization.  There were several other pieces of graffiti in the room -- and indeed, throughout the house --  not only this one and the Belshazzar one. The initial investigators believed that they were merely the off-duty artwork of bored guards.

I have a pretty decent photograph of the inscription that I will forward to the FA.  Perhaps he could post it so that you peeps could take a look...


After digging around for the book titled  TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY By Richard B. Spence, which I bought a couple of months ago, I found on page 217  the following statement:

1918-"In early July, German agents extended an offer of amnesty and repatriation to all Latvian troops in Red service in exchange for their neutrality in the event of a German occupation of Moscow."

Reilly was in Russia inciting a "coup d'etat by the Latvian Riflemen.

This makes me wonder about  the Latvians, who  became part of the new guard at the Impatiev House under Yurovsky?  Could one/two/ they have been German agents?

Is there a possible link of one or two [more?] of the Latvians to the Germans who were in Ekaterinburg and who were plotting to a rescue on or about 16 July 1918?  If there was,   then it was possible that they may have saved one or two of the Romanov children.

This makes more sense than their bodies falling off a truck, I think.

And,  this would explain why the two bodies are missing from the mass grave.

King has asked me to check his book  THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS before I post.  I did  and looked in Appendix I,  Ekaterinburg Guards p. 529-30.

I found the following Latvians:
1. p. 529 - Adolf Lepa fr Verkh-Isetsk, Commander of the "Lett" detachment
2. p. 139 - There were 63 Letts who transported luggage, etc. to Ekaterinburg in May
3. p. 268 - "When the seven new guards first appeared in the Ipatiev House, Nicholas referred to them as "Letts".  They appeared with Yurovsky.
4.  p. 269 -  Under the "Lett"  Lepa were: Michael and Alexei Kabanov, Soames, Victor Netrebin, Verhas and Lacher.
5.  pps 298-300 - Talks about the confusion of how many Letts were part of the squad of shooters who executed the eleven
    a.  there were ten
     b. there were seven
      c. there was three....
6. p. 300  -Lepa was one of the guards who refused to shoot the "girsl" ;  "...a few of the Lettes said they did not feel able to shoot at the girls, and refused to do it.   Verhas was another....

On p. 299 King and Wilson explain that the CHEKA and Ural Soviets found it to their best interest to have announced that the majority of the shooters had been "Letts"  which "...absolving, as it did, their follow countrymen of responsibility for the crimes."  

King and Wilson named the shooters p. 299 at the bottom of the page.

Just a thought.  I have no evidence,  only the hint of a possibility the Germans with the Letts may have save one or two of the Romanov children.

I think if the Soviets knew where the two bodies were,  they'd dig them up just to stop all of this  "where are they" stories and threads which keeps reminding the public of the execution.  My guess is,  they don't know what happen to the two who are missing.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 18, 2004, 08:14:22 PM
List of shooters found:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1090449527

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Michelle on October 19, 2004, 08:10:38 AM
Fascinating as always, dear old Bear!!! :D ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 19, 2004, 10:14:35 AM
I think this post is important enough to post here, also:

Quote
Elisabeth-
I haven't yet mastered the art of being able to cut and paste random quotes, but in reply to your post of 18 October, concerning Yurovsky's motivation in possibly lying about the two missing bodies/separate grave:

To me, at least, it is a plausible theory.  You mention a lack of motive, but I see plenty of motive.  First, let's start with the assumption (whether right or wrong, for the sake of argument here) that two bodies were indeed missing when they got to the Koptyaki Forest.  We know Yurovsky sent almost everyone gathered there away from the scene on the pretext of the jewels hidden in clothing.  It is I think equally possible he sent them away because he wanted to narrow the field of witnesses to only those men on whom he could rely.  So, under this hypothesis, whom does Yurovsky lie to?  Not to the few trusted men still there, and we know both he and Ermakov spent the morning of 17 July before a special emergency meeting of the Ural Regional Soviet's Presidium, essentially getting raked over the coals for something-Isai Rodzinsky hints that this was because of "what had happened."  But what had happened?  The murders?  Everyone knew those were coming.  So it had to be something else, something that happened during the murders or immediately after.  I suspect that these uncomfortable interviews concerned the two missing bodies.  Yurovsky doesn't lie to these men-Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, etc.-after all, they're all in this together, with their collective necks hanging out in the wind from having killed everyone aganst Moscow's orders.  He HAS to trust these guys.  But when it comes to Moscow, that's another issue.  He has every reason to lie to Moscow if through his bungling or lack of order two bodies went missing.  What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Ermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

Yurovsky certainly wouldn't admit this in his 1920 Note, which he only wrote at the direction of Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, and which he knew would be seen by those in power.  So he sticks to the cover story.  Same with his 1934 talk.  But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.  I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed.  Moscow knew how many people had actually been shot-he couldn't add or subtract victims-his mistake was just that, whereas in his 1922 memoir he was quite clear about attempting to burn only one body.

It's possible, though completely unproved, that the grave was opened in 1927-28, but if so, why would Stalin simply remove the two sets of remains buried separately and not obliterate the others?  That doesn't make sense-especially as he already had Yurovsky's 1920 Note which conveniently explained away the two missing bodies should anyone ever look.  All the Soviet government had to do was to produce it and say, "Here's why they're missing!"  Simply removing two, while leaving the other nine, seems illogical.

I suspect, though it's simply a hypothesis, that someone who knew what happened talked-and this started the ball rolling as it were in 1927-28.  After this, the people who would have known either start dropping like flies, being arrested, or suddenly get special government pensions or write absurd memoirs claiming all manner of inaccuracies.

Admittedly, there's no absolute proof that a second grave didn't exist, but nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea that it did outside of the few memoirs, which contradict each other and make claims unsupported by science.  Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yusovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Greg King


If I could,  I'd circle this sentence:

"...Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yurovsky lied and tha Anastasia and Alexei were missing."

Missing.  
Two children missing.  
These two children were either dead and their bodies were misplaced or they were alive and had vanished.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JonC on October 30, 2004, 01:30:32 PM
To ALL.

I have a question.

Does anyone remember reading about how the Brits sent out a ship to the area near Yalta to rescue some members of the Whites?

I remember reading about how the Brits disguised the effort by using a coal ship whose crew were replaced by Navy sailors. The said ship would then move stealthily into port and take on certain 'designated' passengers which were waiting for the ship to come. I don't remember the book I read it in. It may have been Radzinski's book or maybe Guy Richard's last book. In the book the author sends out to the readers a plea for anyone who may have any information about this rescue and about the name of the coal ship in question.

I ask this because for some time now I have had in my collection of Romanov info a copy of two letters dated 1921 and 1926 respectively written by a certain 'Boris Shabliovsky', a Russian expatriot. I acquired these letters from the NY Public library while searching for 'Romanov' material.

The letters come with photographs of the Standart, sailors on the Standart.  The Tsar with his troops. Photos of war ships out at sea and a photo of a coal ship with a group photo of its crew. Mr. Shabliovski is in the photo with the crew as a crew member.

The letters are in Russian but since I don't read Russian I have never known what they say. Can anyone help me with this? JonC.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 30, 2004, 02:35:46 PM
JonC...

The Brits? Please try a less derrogative term - The English or The British might be nice... OK? (Also we don't really like "Limey" or "Insul Affen" (german-- Island Monkey)  either.)

Regarding your question-- sorry I currently don't have anything new to tell you.

Rskkiya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on October 30, 2004, 02:48:23 PM
Jon C, I have never heard that story, and I don't see any reason why the "Brits" (British, Limeys, etc.) would have to disguise a ship. When the Marlborough rescued the Dowager Empress and others in 1919, it steamed fully in the open as a Navy ship flying the British flag right into port. The "Brits" were very powerful and the "Reds" were probably afraid to challenge them and feel their wrath.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: stepan on October 30, 2004, 03:19:09 PM
The story JonC refered to was in "The Rescue of The Romanovs" by Guy Richards published around 1975.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JonC on October 30, 2004, 03:29:05 PM
To Stepan.

Thanks for your reply. I figured it might be Guy Richards book. I will now go to my copy and re-read the part about the coal ship.

Meanwhile will anyone step up and take a chance in reading the two letters I have. They are in Russian. FA maybe you can translate them for us. I want to know who 'Boris' is and what he is doing on a coal ship in the Black sea. Thanks, JonC.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Aliard on October 30, 2004, 03:39:58 PM
Quote
JonC...

The Brits? Please try a less derrogative term - The English or The British might be nice... OK? (Also we don't really like "Limey" or "Insul Affen" (german-- Island Monkey)  either.)

Regarding your question-- sorry I currently don't have anything new to tell you.

Rskkiya


No offense, but you seem to be insulted by the slightest remark. Try lightening up.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JonC on October 30, 2004, 03:41:36 PM
Quote
JonC...

The Brits? Please try a less derrogative term - The English or The British might be nice... OK? (Also we don't really like "Limey" or "Insul Affen" (german-- Island Monkey)  either.)

Regarding your question-- sorry I currently don't have anything new to tell you.

Rskkiya

Sorry, no offense intended! Best regards. JonC.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 30, 2004, 04:03:22 PM
Kurth's page on Anna Anderson / Notes on FS:

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 30, 2004, 04:04:55 PM
The "Brits"????
Sorry Rsskiya, but on this I am at a loss. Never bothered me or anyone I know. After all, no worse than "Yanks" I suppose and I am sure we have all been called a lot worse !
Cheers,
Robert [call me a Brit" anytime!]
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on October 30, 2004, 05:05:35 PM
The thing about "Yank" is that it does not apply to ALL Americans, and I wonder if Europeans know that. Yank was originally from Yankee, from Yangees or something, which was a Native American name for "English" back in the days of the early settlement of the New England colonies. By the time of the Revolutionary war (in which America won freedom from the king without chopping off anyone's head or shooting them and throwing them into mine shafts) Yankee, like Yankee Doodle Dandy, was a common slang term for New Englanders and I guess it was picked up by British then.

However, Yankee has never referred to anyone in the south, midwest or west. I would say, as a lifelong native of Virginia, that "Yankees" dwell on the east coast, above the Mason-Dixon line (MD-PA border) So the only real "Yankees" are from the NE states (MASS, RI, VT, NH, CONN, Maine) plus NY, PA, and NJ.

During the American Civil War of 1861-65, "Yankee" was a negative term southerners used to call the Union army. Growing up in an ex-Confederate state in the 1960's and 70's, I can tell you that "yankee" was a name that was not appreciated by southerners, it was even seen as an insult by some. It bugged people that "Brits" would go "you yanks" when really we were not all "yanks" and some non-yanks actually carried animosity toward real 'yanks' for several generations after the war and reconstruction. So if you're going to call 'yank' make sure you get the right state please! ;)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on October 30, 2004, 05:41:17 PM
Annie, as a fellow Virginian (UDC and all) I agree, you are exactly right about the "Yank" thing.

I can only add that when I lived in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, nobody I tried to explain this to really *got* it and basically shrugged off the suggestion that to some Americans, the term isn't appreciated.  *Their* notions of nicknames, etc, as to who's who developed differently and I do believe that now and forever all Americans will be thought of as "Yanks" by most overseas.  It used to bother me, but the longer I lived in other countries, I didn't mind it and even now back in the states it still doesn't really faze me.  The connotations the term may have for us, as Virginians, as southerners, well, people from other countries don't have those connotations attached to that word, "Yank" or "Yankee".

Ah well, anyway, we're actually "mid-Atlantic," at least MD,DE,VA, and heck, even NC could be included in that designation.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 30, 2004, 06:02:47 PM
For what (little) it is worth, I am a transplanted Californian now in Texas for 12 years. I am STILL called a Yankee...and not crazy about it. When I lived in England tho, I was always called "Yank" but NEVER felt it was the slightest bit pejorative. None of my British friends have EVER been offended at being called "Brits"...many refer to THEMSELVES as Brits...Limey IS a pejorative term and should never be  used.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: JonC on October 30, 2004, 06:16:52 PM
I remember watching the new version of the movie 'The Last of the Mohicans' a movie centered around the British and the French fighting over the 'colonies'. Well the French called the English speaking peoples of which the Americans also were as 'L'Engles' the indians couldn't pronounce this in French and thus it became 'yangles' which turned into 'Yankees' which it is known to all today. When the British left the American shores the Indians continued to call the Americans 'Yankees'.


NOW! Can someone please take on the task to translate the letters I have which are in Russian...posted about earlier?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on October 30, 2004, 08:58:31 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I do know there's lots of very busy people on this board, some of us dealing with our own translation matters.

Have you thought about contacting a local university, perhaps a grad student could help, for some much needed extra few bucks?  If you've a Russian church nearby you might find someone there to help as well.

I suppose if you scanned them and posted them here someone might have the time or is so fluent they could translate very quickly and accurately.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on October 31, 2004, 01:50:48 AM
Quote
The "Brits"????
Sorry Rsskiya, but on this I am at a loss. Never bothered me or anyone I know. After all, no worse than "Yanks" I suppose and I am sure we have all been called a lot worse !
Cheers,
Robert [call me a Brit" anytime!]


I'm sure my little Australian self can think of some more names for Amerikanyetsye.....seppo.......
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Dashkova on October 31, 2004, 07:15:55 AM
Privyet, Olga! :)

How about those "Poms"? lol! This was a new one for me when I lived down under. My british friends weren't too crazy about this nickname and though I seldom used it, I *heard* it a LOT (usually in a perjorative way, too, sadly!)

But I was, in those days, a "Sand Groper."  Hmmm, maybe that's not quite right, but you know...a West Australian.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on October 31, 2004, 08:48:56 AM
Ahhh Gawdddd!

  Look everyone-- I am so very sorry about hijacking the thread into a discussion on National perjoratives...(I don't care for Limey/Brit/ POME/Insul Affe/Brittisher --but thats just childish and insecure me!)

Back on topic
Sorry JonC I am not able to help on this one.

Rskkiya
the evil overly sensitive one! ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 31, 2004, 09:50:34 AM
This morning I was reading the rest of Kudrin's [Michael / Mikhail  Medvedev's] 1964 written statement about the execution, buriels and telegrams.  I thought this statement as curious:

"Thus ended the secret operations to red Russia of the Romanov dynasty.  It was done so successfully that to this day no one has discovered either the secret of the Impatiev house or the place where the tsar's family is buried."

Well we have discovered the buriel place in Pig's Meadow but what does he mean "the secret of the Impatiev house"?

Kudrin can't be talking about the execution if they all agree that all eleven were killed.  Everyone knew that by 1964.  He can't be talking about the Soviet Urals taking the responsibility because we know that by 1964.  So,  what is he saying to us?    There is more?  There is still, yet, another secret to uncover?

How Anastasia/ Marie and Alexei vanished?

AGRBear

PS  The term Yankee for all Americans came, again, during WWII from a George Cohen's song "Yankee Doodle Dandy" who was born on the 4th of July...."   It became popular, again, when sung by James Cagney in the 1942/3 movie.  "Yankee" lost it's real meaning to the world with that song. When the Americans landed in Europe, they were the "Yankee Doodle Boys" which was shorten to "Yanks". But it didn't lose it's old meaning in the USA.  I remember living in New Orleans as a child and being called "a d__n Yankee" by the one very dislikeable local.   "Yank" and "Rebel" still  divide " Lincoln's northeners" from "Davis' southeners" in the Old South.


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 31, 2004, 10:33:54 AM
Quote
Well we have discovered the buriel place in Pig's Meadow but what does he mean "the secret of the Impatiev house"?

PS  The term Yankee for all Americans came during WWII from a George Cohen's song "Yankee Doodle Dandy" who was born on the 4th of July...."   It became popular, again, when sung by James Cagney in the 1942/3 movie.  "Yankee" lost it's real meaning to the world with that song. When the Americans landed in Europe, they were the "Yankee Doodle Boys" which was shorten to "Yanks". But it didn't lose it's old meaning in the USA.  I remember living in New Orleans as a child and being called "a d__n Yankee" by the one very dislikeable local.   "Yank" and "Rebel" still  divide " Lincoln's northeners" from "Davis' southeners" in the Old South.




1. He means the secret that ALL eleven were killed there, instead of the "publicly announced" Nicholas alone...period NOTHING MORE.

2. You could not be more incorrect about Yankee...American's were called "yankee doodle" during the REVOLUTIONARY WAR...remember "yankee doodle went to London riding on a pony...."??? Amercians were Yankees a hundred plus years before George M. Cohan....for Pete's sake, read some American History now too.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on October 31, 2004, 10:44:41 AM
"Yankee Doodle" was also the song played over and over on phonograph record by Yussoupov and his guests at his party the night Rasputin was killed. It really happened, it wasn't just made up for "Nicholas and Alexandra."
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 31, 2004, 11:13:35 AM
Quote

1. He means the secret that ALL eleven were killed there, instead of the "publicly announced" Nicholas alone...period NOTHING MORE.

2. You could not be more incorrect about Yankee...American's were called "yankee doodle" during the REVOLUTIONARY WAR...remember "yankee doodle went to London riding on a pony...."??? Amercians were Yankees a hundred plus years before George M. Cohan....for Pete's sake, read some American History now too.


I did use the word "again" which you may have missed and I've gone back while you were posting and added another "again" to my post.

I presumed everyone knew about the "yankee doddle" who went to London"....  If not, my mistake.

Let me point out, once again, that my posts seem to cause great "agitation" for Forum Admin..  I apologize to all who feel the same as he.   But let me point out, again, that this was written in 1963 not 1922 or 1938.....  By this time we, the world,  knew all eleven were missing.  So,  when I read these words,  I  gained a different view of what he night be telling us.
Quote

"Thus ended the secret operations to red Russia of the Romanov dynasty.  It was done so successfully that to this day no one has discovered either the secret of the Impatiev house or the place where the tsar's family is buried."



AGRBear
 
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 31, 2004, 11:49:26 AM
I do apologise to AGR for the "american history" comment re Yankee Doodle. It was very early Sunday morning, and I had not yet had my coffee. It was uncalled for to be rude. Im sorry. AGR needs her honey pot, I need my coffee pot.. ;D
FA
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Abby on October 31, 2004, 01:11:22 PM
yeah, i think the "secret of the Ipatiev house" is that they killed everyone in the basement room. remember this was still a secret for a long time, even after Sokolov's investigation, no one was ever sure what happened until many years later.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 31, 2004, 03:06:52 PM
Quote

"Thus ended the secret operations to red Russia of the Romanov dynasty.  It was done so successfully that to this day no one has discovered either the secret of the Impatiev house or the place where the tsar's family is buried."


It appears I haven't been clear at all on this.

Kudrin wrote a statement in 1963.  In it he describes what he knew about the events leading up to the execution, the execution, the Four Brothers Mine, who did what and when, and the grave under the road  and the exact spot was known by only one still alive and that was Isai  Rodzinsky.....

Therefore,  having told what he knew, he ended his statement with the words above.

He wasn't talking about the execution of the 11 being a secret.   Remember, in 1963 everyone thought all 11 were dead.  

He said in 1963:  "It was done so successfully that to this day no one has discovered...the secret of the Ipatiev house...."  

What does it mean  "the secret of the Ipatiev house"?  

Was the secret there to find and for that reason was  the house torn down and the secret erased?

But I doubt there was a corner of the house that wasn't photographs at some time by someone, so, I'm not sure the house being demolish is the answer.

Are we back to that night of 16/17 July 1918 and the events?
 
A secret.

A secret so successfully hidden it had not been discovered as Kudrin wrote in 1964.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 31, 2004, 04:29:22 PM
Bear, dear, I believe one of your assumptions is mistaken.  Many Russians believed in the 1960's and 1970's that Nicholas had been killed outside a railway station and that Alix and the children were set free. Thus, the "secret of the Ipatiev House" truly was that there were 11 people murdered there. Just as Rob told you.

As interest in the Imperial Family increased in the West during this same period, ordinary Russians began to be interested in "The House of Special Purpose". It is very telling that the Bolsheviks were so worried about it becoming a shrine  nearly 60 years later that they ordered the house demolished!

So, the FA is correct in telling you what the secret was.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on October 31, 2004, 08:52:45 PM
All those in my generation and older - whether they lived in Russia, Manchuria, China, Europe or N. American - knew about the execution.

I can, however, believe the younger generations born after the mid-1950s would not have known about the execution.

Since Kudrin (M.M.) was of the older generation,  I do not think that is what he meant when he said "...no one...."

Evidently Lisa and others don't see what I saw in what Kudrin wrote.  That is okay with me.  I just mentioned it because I thought it was interesting since I hadn't read this part of his 1963  story before......

Just as I thought this was interesting.   Kudrin, also,  wrote in 1963:  "In the last month or two 'curiosity seekers' kept approaching the fence of the House for Special Designation...., usually suspicious characters who had come mostly from St. Petersburg or Moscow."

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 01, 2004, 12:10:41 AM
But, respectfully. Bear, I must disagree with you. Yes, people of your generation and also mine were aware of the Ekaterinburg murders IF they didn't live in Russia. But, those who did live in Russia were lied to by their government, repeatedly. It really was still a big secret in the 1960's that the entire family was murdered. Consider the following:

1. A visitor from Russia yelled at me at my mother's dining room table for saying the Bolsheviks murdered the entire IF - this was around 1975. He told me this was a White attempt to make the Reds look bad. Even party members were told only the tsar was killed - although some people did know the entire truth, not everyone did.

2. A history teacher from Leningrad in the early 1990's decided she could no longer teach because virtually everything she had been taught at Russian universities was a lie. Can you imagine how devastating that was for her?

Fact is, many people in Russia in the 1960's only had a very vague idea who the last tsar was. I think it's really tragic that the only Bolshevik admission of the Ekaterinburg murders came from Boris Yeltsin in 1998.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on November 01, 2004, 05:04:55 AM
Quote
Privyet, Olga! :)

How about those "Poms"? lol! This was a new one for me when I lived down under. My british friends weren't too crazy about this nickname and though I seldom used it, I *heard* it a LOT (usually in a perjorative way, too, sadly!)

But I was, in those days, a "Sand Groper."  Hmmm, maybe that's not quite right, but you know...a West Australian.


Privyet, Dashkova!  :)

Alas, I too am a Sand Groper. What about Tasmanians, (inbreds) and Victorians (wankers).  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Olga on November 02, 2004, 01:41:55 AM
Oh dear. It seems I have killed the thread.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on November 02, 2004, 01:36:17 PM
Well I have to admit that all of these various conspiracies regarding hidden graves and secret bodies dug up at minight are giving me a dreadful headache.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2004, 11:38:37 AM
Lisa,  I am sure what you told me about your family is quite true and I certainly can't deny this truth.  I, also, heard about some teachers saying this about the history of the communist being filled with "lies" .

I think if we could compare the differences between our families it would be interesting and probably show why the people I knew were aware of what happen to Nicholas II and the family and yours was not.

Since nearly everyone in my family, who had survived, were gone from Russia by WWII,  that, too, may have made the differences in what was remembered.   My family was free to remember and repeat what they knew in our free society in the USA.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 03, 2004, 01:59:06 PM
Bear, to clarify, my family and I are/were well aware of the murder of Nicholas and his family.

People we encountered from Russia in the 1970's and into the 1980's were not. I understand from others than the Russians we met here in the US would have had to have had party connections.

So, it is more than likely that the average Ivan on the street during this period did not know about the murder of the tsar's family or the "secret of the Ipatiev House", i.e. that the murders took place there.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2004, 03:30:16 PM
I did not read carefully enough your posting, Lisa.

So, I'll restate:  It might be interesting to know why our families knew about the events which occured on the night of 16/17 July 1918 and others did not.

I assume you mean the people living in Russia in the 1970s would have had some kind of party connections had they known because these kinds of secrets swirl around this group.

And, like I have said many times,   I am keeping  an open mind about the possibility of one or more survivors.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Sian_Turner on November 03, 2004, 03:42:31 PM
It's taken me several days just to skim read the incredibly interesting messages and replies on this site.  It's been fascinating to see all the ideas, photos and discussions that this perplexing subject brings to the fore.

I have to admit, to begin with, that I'm an Anna Anderson supporter.  I've spent so many years reading all the various pro's and cons but still find myself returning to the photos, and I do think that she was AN.  I fully appreciate that the DNA tests are showing something different but I find it extremely difficult to reconcile the fact that she knew so much, and was recognised by so many.  I accepted many years ago that we will probably never get to the bottom of the mystery but still find it totally fascinating.

I have several points to raise and this posting seems to be the most appropriate.  Please excuse me if these questions have been covered elsewhere but, as I say, I've only been able to skim read half of the topics so may have missed answers to these questions.

Firstly, "The Fate of the Romanovs" - what a superb book it is, congratulations to Penny and Greg for such a fascinating, all encompassing and very scholarly piece of work!  I hope that the coming years will see far more of the soviet archive material release, especially the translation of the papers in the Sverdlovsk archive which sound as though they are a treasure pot waiting to be opened.  But what struck me most in this book is the fact that there is that period when Nicholas did not write in his diary.  It seems to me a very significant thing when someone as addicted to routine as he appears to have been, suddenly stops doing something.  I recently re-read James Blair Lovell's book on AA.  I read it many years ago and never could quite believe the King Kong story, it seemed that AA gave up this information a little too easily, and reading it after several years it strikes me now as having a feeling of a rather sick porn movie!  If AA misused the word hermaphrodite for homosexual (and JBL then says that she had no idea what the word homosexual meant) then the story of rape and so on really doesn't ring true.  However, I don't know whether Nicholas stopped writing in his diary in the period when he was ill during the early part of his marriage?  Can anyone tell me - altho' I'm sure that Alexandra would have mentioned this.

Secondly.  I remember reading in the 90's that a great deal of Romanov golden jewellry had turned up in Budapest, I can't remember the details but would be glad if anyone could fill me in on this.  Maybe it's just me putting 2 and 2 together and making 86 but I wonder how it got there?  I also seem to remember (and I think this was in Peter Kurth's book) that a young man came looking for AA at Doris Wingender's or at the Kleists shortly after her release from hospital and wondered whether anything more had come to light on this matter.

Thirdly, has any DNA been done on Susannah De Graaff's family?  It strikes me that, with living children, there's an ideal opportunity to test the truth of the story of the fifth daughter - I've still to be convinced on this one but if AA was so positive it would be one way of seeing whether she did know what she was talking about.  If that DNA matched either the Ekaterinberg DNA or AA's DNA then we'd have a clearer idea.

This is a fanastic site, bolshoye spaciba to everyone who contributes and to the forum administrators.  I may not agree with some of what is said but it's brilliant, after all these years of private interest to see how many people are as fascinated as I am.  I started with "The File on the Tsar" in 1979 and have been hooked ever since.  I think Peter Kurth's book was a truly fascinating read, although my copy is now well worn, and his lovely book on Nicholas and Alexandra is beautifully put together.  I'm sorry that James Blair Lovells efforts have now been so thoroughly discredited, but the lovely publication of the pictures in his archive is a real must, especially the picture of the four girls in evening dress!   Apologies for such a long posting but this is just a small part of the questions I've amassed over 25 years.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 03, 2004, 11:24:31 PM
AGR Bear: The main reason my family and me knew about Nicholas and Alexandra is our family has lived in the United States for many years. There's nothing terribly significant or interesting about that.

The main reasons most Russians did not know the Tsar's family was murdered with him is that the Bolsheviks lied about it for 70 years. I might add, their lies neither began nor ended with lying about murdering Nicholas' family. As I said, there was never a formal acknowledgement, and the closest we are likely ever to get from them came from Yeltsin's attendance at their funeral and what he said at that time.

My presumption is that most party members did not know about the murders, but there were undoutedly Russians who did.

I hope this clears up your questions on this subject.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on November 12, 2004, 12:10:20 PM
Evidently,  Ermakov helped spread the word about the executions while he was alive.

Quote
Peter Ermakov:
 
"Unlike Yurovsky, Ermakov positively relished his role in the Romanov murders."  wrote King and Wilson, p. 512 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  
 
He had given his Mauser revolver to the Ekaterinburg museum and often took his friends to see the gun which he claimed he had used to  shoot and kill Nicholas II.
 
Evidently, it was Ermakov and not Yurovsky who made public appearances and voiced in detail what had occured in the basement of the Impatiev House on the night of 16/17  July 1918.
 
Unlike Yurovsky,  Ermakov was never censured but p. 513 "rewarded,  given promotions, better apartments and even additional pay."  Even his retirement pay was different.  He received a "personal pension".
 
Died 1952 and given full honors.
 
It appears to what I've read,  the Soviets view Ermakov with a "proud eye" more than they did Yurovsky.  What was the reason?  I thought Ermakov was the "drunkard" and the one who had been "unreliable"  
 
AGRBear


Bringing up Ermakov reminds me how angry Yurovsky was with Ermakov.

Was it under Ermakov's watch that the two bodies became "missing"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 27, 2005, 11:41:26 AM
Quote

...[in part] ....
Fact is, many people in Russia in the 1960's only had a very vague idea who the last tsar was. I think it's really tragic that the only Bolshevik admission of the Ekaterinburg murders came from Boris Yeltsin in 1998.


This just adds to my belief that Yurovsky, the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets and later the Russian leaders did not want the Russians nor the world to know what happen on the eventful night of 16/17 July 1918.  And since that night, they have destroyed and buried the truth.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: etonexile on June 27, 2005, 11:50:19 AM
Quote

This just adds to my belief that Yurovsky, the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets and later the Russian leaders did not want the Russians nor the world to know what happen on the eventful night of 16/17 July 1918.  And since that night, they have destroyed and buried the truth.

AGRBear


I should imagine that the desrtruction of the IF was seen as necessary....but a private necessity....by the Lenin/Stalin Monolith
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 27, 2005, 12:12:53 PM
>>Stefanida Podorova testified to Kirsta that she had heard, from a combination of two other people, that a girl and a boy had been arrested on board a train:  "the girl who had been caught in the carriage was the daughter of the former sovereing....it was known that a search had been carried out in the train...she had been badly beaten up, her check was slashed, she had been beaten with a whip, and taken to some carriage..together with the boy..."  Out of this grew a rumor that Grand Duchess Anastasia was on the run with her brother Alexei.<<

In this testimony, which is heresay ,  tells us that Anastasia and Alexei were said to be together and that they were alive after 17 July 1918.

They are the only ones missing from the mass grave and their bodies were not found where Yurovsky claimed they should be found.

This information was collected by the investigator  Alexander Kirsta.

And remember that the Swedish Red Cross delegate in Russia, Count Carl Bonde, while traveling through this area at this time later wrote in a letter:

"In my capactiy as the chief of the Swedish Red Cross mission in Siberia in 1918,  I traveled in a private railway-car.  At some place, the name of which has escaped my memory, the train was stopped and searched in order to find the Grand Duchess Amastasia, daughter of Tsar Nicholas II.  The grand duchess was, however, not aboard the train.  Nobody knew where she had gone."  p. 343 THE FILE ON THE STAR by Summers and Mangold.

Let me add,  Summers and Mangold did not fabricate evidence and what they found is still valid today.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 28, 2005, 09:22:16 PM
Quote
"Yankee Doodle" was also the song played over and over on phonograph record by Yussoupov and his guests at his party the night Rasputin was killed. It really happened, it wasn't just made up for "Nicholas and Alexandra."



No; you are right, Annie. It was not a made up for the movie. Robert K.Massie wrote that Yussupov played this song in his phonographe while he saw Rasputin eat the poissoned coockies.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on June 28, 2005, 10:57:43 PM
In this testimony, which is heresay ,  tells us that Anastasia and Alexei were said to be together and that they were alive after 17 July 1918.

Ah, no.  It is neither heresay nor does it tell us anything other than that some people believed that the two were still alive after July 17.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2005, 12:52:31 AM
Wasn't the Yankee Doodle Dandy born on the 4th of July?

So, what happen on the 4th of July 1918 in the lives of the IF?

Was it something which Rasputin knew was going to happen because from time to time he did forsee the future, or, so it's been said?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2005, 01:06:07 AM
Quote
In this testimony, which is heresay ,  tells us that Anastasia and Alexei were said to be together and that they were alive after 17 July 1918.
 
Ah, no.  It is neither heresay nor does it tell us anything other than that some people believed that the two were still alive after July 17.


Two persons believed they saw  GDuchess Anastasia and Alexie, who are missing from the mass grave in Pig's Meadow, after July 17th, 1918.  These two young people were were on a train being searched for two missing children of Nicholas II and were arrested and taken off the train....  

Who were these two people who told the same story?  We don't know their names.  What do we know about them? Nothing.  Who was  this woman who told Kirsta the story? I don't know accept her name.   Were these two young people arrested the children of Nicholas II.  We don't know.   Why were the trains being searched if no one had escaped?  We can speculate but we really do not know why even through the Reds tell us it was to fool the Whites.... the world....  whom they wanted to think the Tsarina and her children were safe in some unknown place.....   Two are missing.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: etonexile on June 29, 2005, 09:33:12 AM
Bear...isn't heresay...rumour...gossip....? ???
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on June 29, 2005, 09:56:25 AM
Bear wrote: Wasn't the Yankee Doodle Dandy born on the 4th of July?

So, what happen on the 4th of July 1918 in the lives of the IF?

Was it something which Rasputin knew was going to happen because from time to time he did forsee the future, or, so it's been said?

Bear, I think it's really important to get your facts straight.  A Yankee Doodle Dandy was born on the fourth of july.  The song says "I'm A Yankee Doodle Dandy", not "I'm THE...."  This is very important.  It implies that there are more than ONE YDDs.  Do we know how many?  No.  This is something that should be researched.  Important to know.

I think on the 4th of July, 1917, the guards may have prepared a bbq for the royal family, complete with corn on the cob and that weird jello salad thing.  Rasputin had, indeed, predicted this.  He was obviously psychic.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2005, 01:15:30 PM
So it goes:  "I'm A Yankee Doodle Dandy...."  born on the fourth of July.

Is this right?

And, yes, Rasputin every once in awhile seem to know the future, or, so it seems.  Did he know about 4 July 1918 and what it would bring the IF family?

So which date do we chose?  The American fourth is N.S. and is marked in their diaries as the 21st of June or do we chose the O.S. 4 July which is our American N.S. the 17th of July, when early in the morning hours the CHEKA claim they executed Nicholas II and the others?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: etonexile on June 29, 2005, 01:31:24 PM
Quote
So it goes:  "I'm A Yankee Doodle Dandy...."  born on the fourth of July.

Is this right?

And, yes, Rasputin every once in awhile seem to know the future, or, so it seems.  Did he know about 4 July 1918 and what it would bring the IF family?

So which date do we chose?  The American fourth is N.S. and is marked in their diaries as the 21st of June or do we chose the O.S. 4 July which is our American N.S. the 17th of July, when early in the morning hours the CHEKA claim they executed Nicholas II and the others?

AGRBear



shakes head....a new level has been reached....
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: nat_r-d on June 29, 2005, 02:10:44 PM
Never believe someone is death until you see the body, and even then, have your doubts. If this sound a little bit as a Frank Herbert’s Dune quote, It is!
My personal opinion about this case: We have to wait at least 10 years more, when more advanced DNA tests and other techniques are gone to be available, to know about the Romanov's real end. Also the political, legal, economic and religious aspects are to much entangle now. From Hollywood to the Vatican everyone have much to loose or gain on this. I hope someone survives and Ana Anderson's story can be proved a real one, and also hope all humanity leaders learn how to be just and compassionate.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 29, 2005, 02:33:18 PM
Here is a link explaining a Yankee Doodle Dandy.

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/3-5/symbols/yankee.html

For the life of me I cannot understand what this has to do with the IF.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on June 29, 2005, 04:43:26 PM
Oh, for God's sakes, Inquiring!  It's the KEY to unravelling the entire mystery!

<g>
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 29, 2005, 06:04:53 PM
Well Bear,

As far as Yankee Doodle playing while Rasputin was being dispatched, it had to have been the pre-American Revolution version. The "stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni" one.

The version with "born on the 4th of July" was written by George M Cohan around 1940.

I don't think Rasputin cursed the family or foretold the future.


Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 29, 2005, 06:13:50 PM
Quote
Well Bear,

As far as Yankee Doodle playing while Rasputin was being dispatched, it had to have been the pre-American Revolution version. The "stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni" one.

The version with "born on the 4th of July" was written by George M Cohan around 1940.

I was only saying that "Yankee Doodle" was played when Rasputin was being murdered...And saw what an interesting subjetc we started!  ;D

RealAnastasia.

I don't think Rasputin cursed the family or foretold the future.



Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2005, 07:39:42 PM
Three different subjects.

#1-Yankee Doodle Dandy

The Cohan version was the one I was thinking and not the "stuck his finger in his hat" version, which by the way, does have a intersting history.  Thanks for the web site.  

I misunderstood somewhere .....

#2  American Revolution is celebrated on our 4th of July.  My mind somehow  leaped to the dates of 4 July O.S. and 17 July N.S. in 1918.  BECAUSE I was thinking it was Rasputin who had been playing the music.  When I went back to Annie's quote,  I discovered it was Rasputin's murderers who were playing the song and so it had nothing whats-so-ever to do with Rasputin because he wasn't in charge of playing this song.

#3  Rasputin was said to fortell the future once in awhile.  I think there is a thread about Rasputin and if he actually claimed Nicholas II would be dead within two years if someone in his family murdered him.

Now, if I have really confused you,  let me just make it simple, just forget everything I said in my Posts regarding Yankee Doodle Dandy and Rasputin. ::)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on June 29, 2005, 08:02:49 PM
Forget all of that?  No way.  I'm now utterly convinced that it is the key to unravelling everything......
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 29, 2005, 08:06:51 PM
Every now and then one of us comes up with a "bearish theory". I for one am not opposed to this ...keeps us all on our toes ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2005, 08:41:14 PM
That "bearish theory" took us past the  "dead end" sign.  Sorry  8)

So where was I ?  Oh yes, there were two people who claimed they saw Alexei and one of the Grand Duchess..... after the 17th of July.

[Skipping comments on my post.]

Quote
Never believe someone is death until you see the body, and even then, have your doubts. If this sound a little bit as a Frank Herbert’s Dune quote, It is!
My personal opinion about this case: We have to wait at least 10 years more, when more advanced DNA tests and other techniques are gone to be available, to know about the Romanov's real end. Also the political, legal, economic and religious aspects are to much entangle now. From Hollywood to the Vatican everyone have much to loose or gain on this. I hope someone survives and Ana Anderson's story can be proved a real one, and also hope all humanity leaders learn how to be just and compassionate.


[Skipping over other comments about my post to here.]

AGRBear  ;D
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lexi4 on July 09, 2005, 02:30:25 AM
Quote
I wish I had an inexpensive Russian translator and permission from the publisher to put one of the books online - it's amazing.

what is the name of the book?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 10, 2005, 09:18:12 PM
A page or so back, someone posted a series of questions that were never answered...I'm going to repost them/summarize them to see if anyone can respond.

1.  There's a period of time in which Nicholas, a consistent diary-keeper, did not write in his diary.  Anyone know anything about this?

2.  Kurth mentions a man who came to look for AA at the hospital, then disappeared.  Any other info on this guy?

3.  Any DNA testing or other work done on the de Graaf family?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 10, 2005, 09:34:07 PM
Quote
A page or so back, someone posted a series of questions that were never answered...I'm going to repost them/summarize them to see if anyone can respond.

1.  There's a period of time in which Nicholas, a consistent diary-keeper, did not write in his diary.  Anyone know anything about this?

2.  Kurth mentions a man who came to look for AA at the hospital, then disappeared.  Any other info on this guy?

3.  Any DNA testing or other work done on the de Graaf family?


Please,who are the de Graff family?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 10, 2005, 09:41:56 PM
In Blair Lovell's book on Anastasia, there is a section about a woman named Susanna DeGraaf.  She claimed to be the fifth daughter of A and N, having been put out for adoption or fostering at birth because she wasn't a son.  

AA apparently acknowledged her as her sister, calling her "Princess Alexandra" (which is odd, since she would have been a Grand Duchess, but...)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: etonexile on July 11, 2005, 06:25:07 PM
Quote
In Blair Lovell's book on Anastasia, there is a section about a woman named Susanna DeGraaf.  She claimed to be the fifth daughter of A and N, having been put out for adoption or fostering at birth because she wasn't a son.  

AA apparently acknowledged her as her sister, calling her "Princess Alexandra" (which is odd, since she would have been a Grand Duchess, but...)


Dead brilliant story....I hope it's true....I can imagine a spaniel...found in a Berlin pound...being ackowleged as "Joy", or puppy there of....more...please....
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on July 11, 2005, 08:30:13 PM
Quote

..[in part]....
1.  There's a period of time in which Nicholas, a consistent diary-keeper, did not write in his diary.  Anyone know anything about this?
...


After GD Maria disapeared for a time with one of the guards on her birthday in 1918 in the Ipatiev House,  Nicholas II didn't write for a few days.

I'll have to dig out the books to give you exact dates if this is the timeline to which you are referring.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 11, 2005, 08:37:33 PM
I don't know if that time frame is what the original poster was referring to, but I sure would like more info on this - I keep hearing references to it, but don't know much.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lexi4 on July 12, 2005, 12:39:18 AM
Quote
Bob Atchison actually viewed the remains before burial. While not a scientist, he has an artist's eye for faces. He told me that Anastasia was definitely one of the sets of remains. I believe him, but that also comes from many years of friendship.

Lisa,
I would trust Bob as well based on his posts here. However, I do have a question. Is there an explanation for why the Russians claim the missing body is Maria and the Americans say it is Anastascia? I need to be clear, is there a political reason that would account for the differences? I understand different methods were used be the teams.
Next question? How did Bob get to see the remains???? That is amazing!!!!!
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Robby on July 20, 2005, 01:28:37 AM
I know that someone survived, it was Maria Nicholaevna Romanov. After the murder she was transported from the truck by an old woman, ho was the trainkeeper. Then Maria built her live up as 'Granny Alina'. The DNA coouldn't be tested because it was too old, but the photo's were clear and profssors from HARVARD said that 'Granny Alina' is indeed Maria, the would buried her with her family, but instead of that, she was buried in a nameless grave in South Africa. I know this from a documantary.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 09:16:16 AM
Granny Alina's dna is not too old.  ANd people know where she's buried.  It's just that the family has declined to have her remains tested.  Probably because they know she was not Maria.

THere's an entire thread on the Granny Alina myth elsewhere on this board......she was not Maria.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 20, 2005, 09:26:44 AM
Bob went to Ekaterinburg after the remains had been unearthed. There is no political motive at all. The Russians are convinced that it is Maria and not Anastasia missing based on their forensic examination of the remains. period.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 09:41:43 AM
The conflict over the Anastasia/Maria bones is well-described in "The Quest for Anastasia".  It is mainly a difference in technique as well as conclusions between Dr. Maples and the Russian forensic guy who first took charge of the bones.

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 01:43:23 PM
Quote
Granny Alina's dna is not too old.  ANd people know where she's buried.  It's just that the family has declined to have her remains tested.  Probably because they know she was not Maria.

THere's an entire thread on the Granny Alina myth elsewhere on this board......she was not Maria.

According to the book, A Princess of the Family, the remains of Granny Alina were too contaminated and decomposed to test for DNA. According to the book's author,  Gabriel Duval, persmission was obtained to have the remains tested. But basically there wasn't anyway to test because of the conditions of the bones.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 03:08:59 PM
That seems...........unreal.  If bodies that were covered with acid and left to rot for decades could produce testable DNA, why not Granny's?

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 03:46:19 PM
Quote
That seems...........unreal.  If bodies that were covered with acid and left to rot for decades could produce testable DNA, why not Granny's?


I'll check the book. But it seems it had something to do with the heat in Africa.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 04:55:06 PM
Interesting, since they can get dna from skeletal remains that are thousands of years old...
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 04:55:48 PM
In Africa, I meant.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 11:52:24 PM
I will dig out my book and post what is says.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on November 15, 2005, 06:11:04 PM
Quote
Ivan Koryakov and Lydmilla Koryakova, probably the two most experienced forensic anthropologists of the Russians who exhumed the grave and assisted in the first examinations, concluded that yes, the bodies had been in the grave for approximately 70 years or so, based a number of factors.  They were not "recent" plants-a judgment with which everyone we talked to for "Fate of the Romanovs" and indeed everyone involved-Maples, Falsetti, Levine, France-at the US end, agreed.

However, for what it's worth, I do think the grave was opened perhaps twice-I suspect once in the late 1920s, under Stalin's orders (at the same time as Anna Anderson began to get a lot of publicity in the West), perhaps to see how many bodies really were there, and again sometime between 1979 or 1980 and 1991; we go into the evidence for this second opening in "Fate," and it seems pretty conclusive to me.  But we don't think it was to plant bodies or evidence-probably curiosity, or even accidental.  The first, back in the 1920s, would, I think, have been to ascertain how many were present, to corroborate what Yurovsky said; I don't think it's necessarily an accident that only after 1928 do the various accounts become quite specific regarding Anastasia being cremated-as if they feared AA might be the genuine article (which has nothing to do with the claim itself, mind you-merely the perception on the part of the Soviets) and thus began to pepper statements with accounts of her death.

One conundrum is not only the state of the exhumed remains-Koryakova was horrified at how disarticulated the skeletons were-it was not the ordinary result of disintegration, nor the side-effects of the earlier digs-but more to the point-that two-thirds of what should have been there was simply missing-they never recovered enough bones to account for three human beings, much less nine, though they had the correct number of skulls, six still attached to spinal columns and vertebrae (meaning they weren't just tossed in to provide the missing numbers).  Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.  And it can't be put down to simple disintegration (Koryakova said no when asked about this) nor to the various digs and exhumations-they just weren't there.  Even taking into account the expected amount of missing skeletal remains, the Romanov grave puzzled all of the scientists with its sheer lack of bones.  I suspect (only a theory) that some of these were probably exhumed either in the 1920s or between 1980-91 and disappeared into some lab in Moscow to be analyzed.  There's never been another explanation for this-and the grave itself was intact though disturbed, meaning it hadn't been dug up by animals or forraged-a difficult task anyway given the layers of railway ties, stones, brush, and more ties that had been placed on top of it.

Greg King


There are many interesting posts, like Greg's, in this thread.  I thought I'd bump it up and let it be noticed for the newbies.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Tania+ on November 15, 2005, 07:17:36 PM
Dear AGRBear,

Thank you so much for providing the last informational post ! Your very accomodating, and I'm sure Greg's information helps immensely, all the more for the newbies.  ;)

Tatiana

Quote

There are many interesting posts, like Greg's, in this thread.  I thought I'd bump it up and let it be noticed for the newbies.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: rskkiya on November 19, 2005, 10:11:19 PM
Ok
   I think that we can all agree that some Romanovs DID survive...Nicholas' mother and sisters, some  cousins, uncles etc.  Distant family members were able to escape - that is if they hadn't already been exiled abroad.
Title: RE: Rescuers of Romanovs
Post by: AGRBear on November 28, 2005, 12:20:29 PM
The following thread talks  about the uncles, aunts, and cousins who survived:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980627;start=0#0

Quote
Feb. 2005: NEW ARTICLE by Bob Moshein on the rescue of the Romanvos from the Crimea:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/marlborough.html


More on the Romanov who escaped on the HMS Marlborough:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1101933721;start=

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 06:39:27 PM
Bumping up.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on December 16, 2005, 05:01:15 PM
Quote
Bumping up.

AGRBear

AGRBear:

What's at stake for you here? Why do you have this need to believe one or more of the IF could have actually survived these impossible circumstances? I don't get it. What's in it for you?

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 16, 2005, 05:43:11 PM
Quote
AGRBear:

What's at stake for you here? Why do you have this need to believe one or more of the IF could have actually survived these impossible circumstances? I don't get it. What's in it for you?

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA


I have the need to discover the true facts.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 16, 2005, 06:01:20 PM
Quote

I have the need to discover the true facts.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

AGRBear



This, of course, carries the underlying supposition that they are AS YET UNKNOWN. What about the genuine and realistic possiblity and probability that the true facts ARE known? Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Annie on December 17, 2005, 09:22:08 AM
There will never be any 'truth' for some as long as there are more wild theories. Even if the missing bodies were found and identified today, we'd still have to hear how it was a plot by the Russians and all a lie and coverup, or that the Queen paid them to do it, the DNA tests were rigged, bones switched, etc. into infinity. It's hopeless ::)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: etonexile on December 17, 2005, 09:36:14 AM
And folk question my "Harlequin Romance" theories.... ::)
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 17, 2005, 12:15:00 PM
Quote


This, of course, carries the underlying supposition that they are AS YET UNKNOWN. What about the genuine and realistic possiblity and probability that the true facts ARE known? Nothing more, nothing less.


The reality is:  We do not know all the true facts.

The following post is just one post to prove my point:

Quote
There will never be any 'truth' for some as long as there are more wild theories. Even if the missing bodies were found and identified today, we'd still have to hear how it was a plot by the Russians and all a lie and coverup, or that the Queen paid them to do it, the DNA tests were rigged, bones switched, etc. into infinity. It's hopeless ::)


Annie talks about the two "missing bodies".

This is fact:   We do not know where the two missing bodies are.

And,  what I have concluded, after a great deal of research,  Yurovsky wasn't truthful about what happen to the two missing children of Nicholas II.

Yurovsky told us in his testimony where the nine bodies could be found and they were finally found.  He told us that the two missing bodies were Alexei and Demidova.  He told us that the two missing bodies were buried near the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  Yurovsky was honest about the fact that two bodies are missing from the mass grave.  Yurovsky was honest about the one missing body being Alexei.   He tried to cover up the fact that the female wasn't Alexandra but Demidova...  Guess what.   The body was neither.  Even if they had already crushed the faces with their rifle butts,  the body of a young  GD Duchess, which is missing,  would surly have been easily seen as being young and not the age of Alexandra or Demdov.  Then to add to this,  the entire area of Pig's Meadow has been dug up and other areas have been search and the two bodies continue to be missing.

Until the two bodies are found,  it is not illogical or unrealistic of Bear to  think there is a great possibility that Yurovsky didn't tell us all the truth of what happen.  

So, why do some of you continue to think that we know all the facts?  And,   why you think Yurovsky and the other CHEKA spoke the whole truth and nothing but the truth???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 17, 2005, 12:52:08 PM
Why do YOU assume we don't have the truth? Yurovsky admitted two bodies were missing. Why do you assume he was lying about the missing female? Maybe, jsut maybe, given the brutal carnage to the bodies, their being covered in blood, and mud and dirt, and acid...and the fact they had been stripped naked, he was simply MISTAKEN in his identification of the missing female? Oh, NO, NEVER Yurovsky would SURELY LIE about just one little fact instead of being MISTAKEN. Lord knows the Bolsheviks would LIE about just ONE thing, long before simply being in error. Makes ZERO sense, UNLESS one simply does not WISH to accept the facts as the truth.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Rachael89 on December 17, 2005, 01:35:51 PM
Does anyone know if the general area around the main burial site has been escavated? Becasue it would be odd to bury the other two bodies any great distance away from the main burial site.

Best

Rachael
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 17, 2005, 02:04:54 PM
Yes, the entire area has been searched, as have  other areas.

Two bodies are still missing.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Rachael89 on December 17, 2005, 02:44:05 PM
Thankyou Bear, it's all a big mystery over what's happened tot he missing bodies. The truth is we will never know the truth unless the bodies are found so all we can do is speculate.

Rachael
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 17, 2005, 03:08:08 PM
Quote
The truth is we will never know the truth unless the bodies are found so all we can do is speculate.

Rachael


So, this logic means we will also never know the truth of the 1,200 people aboard Titanic whose bodies were never recovered, until we actually find them. Further, we can never know the truth about what happened to the 1,400 or so victims of the 9/11 attack of whom no trace was ever found. So, all we can do about these people is speculate as well.
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Sarushka on December 17, 2005, 03:32:36 PM
Quote
Yes, the entire area has been searched, as have  other areas.


This could (& probably should) be construed as nitpicking, but as long as we're going to speak in absolutes...

Has the ENTIRE area truly been searched? As in EVERY square inch? And to what depth has every square inch been dug? If the answer is no, it's still quite possible that the missing bodies are there somewhere, isn't it?
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Rachael89 on December 17, 2005, 04:06:55 PM
Dear FA I am sorry, once again, for my use of flawed logic, I feel very, very small because of it.Rachael
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 17, 2005, 04:39:40 PM
Rachael,
Please do not feel "small" at all!! Rather, feel good that you have learned something! You learned something about what is called "critical thinking" which is a very complex thing indeed. We are here to learn from each other, not put others down or make them feel small.  
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: Rachael89 on December 18, 2005, 04:06:41 AM
Thanks Fa, I tend to think of impressive things to say, that sound right and make sense in my head but when I share them with people I realise how many flaws there are in my thinking!

It confuses me lots!

Rachael
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 18, 2005, 10:16:10 AM
Quote

This could (& probably should) be construed as nitpicking, but as long as we're going to speak in absolutes...

Has the ENTIRE area truly been searched? As in EVERY square inch? And to what depth has every square inch been dug? If the answer is no, it's still quite possible that the missing bodies are there somewhere, isn't it?


Some posters may think I am "nitpicking" but the bodies are missing.  And, they are not where Yurovsky said they would be.  

Every summer since the discovery of the mass grave there have been professional scientists looking for the missing two bodies.  All of Pig's Meadow has been turned and the missing two bodies have not been found.  

As I have said,  why would Yurovsky tell the truth about nine an not about the two missing?

If you think real hard,  I bet you can come up with a few reasons why the two are missing.   Let me provide a few theories:
1) the missing two escaped
2) the missing two fell off the truck in transport
3) the missing two bodies were stolen
4) the missing two were buried elsewhere.....  

The fourth reasons is what most people are telling us must have occured but why were they buried elsewhere?

You can make your own list.

Comparing two missing bodies in the woods cannot be compared to the missing bodies of a huge ship having sunk and bodies not being recovered.  Bodies that are buried are not taken away by the current or eaten by fish.  Although, it is suggested that wild animals may have dug up the grave of the missing two and ....  Even if this was so, the entire grave would not have been exposed and portions of the bodies would have been found.... From what I understand,  this was not considered by the scientists for several reasons.  The bodies,  according to Yurovsky, had been burnt and animals would not be drawn to this and prefer their natual foods.  So, if you believe Yurovsky and if he was honest then the bodies were burned.   In the depth of winter when natural foods may be harder to find,  the ground is too frozen for an animals to dig for food.

There are special gadgets, now,  that somehow zero in on graves of people and animals.  This has been used by the scientists as well as the many who have shown up who want to be the ones to find the missing bodies and make a name for themselves.

Areas around Pig's Meadow have been searched and dug up to the depths that would be considered deeper than expected.

Bodies have been found but not the missing two Romanovs.

I am not sure that any scientists looked this year.  They may have given up this task.  I am sure if they did continue that as soon as there was proof two Romanov bodies were found that it would be in the news already.

By the way,  Yurovsky's two testimonies have been copied by me and placed on the thread  Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky and others.  

I'll go find the URLs and bring them back.  Some of you might be interested in the conversation around these testimonies.

At this time,  FA and others think the case is closed.  For them it is.

AGRBear

Title: [quote author=AGRBear link=board=lastdays;num=1106
Post by: AGRBear on December 18, 2005, 10:29:16 AM
1) Questions About the Testimonies of Yurovsky and Others:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106530719;start=0#0

Quote
In the next couple of days,  I'm going to type in the testimony of Yurovsky of 1920. Since this copy is found in THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS, I assume, the words in the brackets are the authors Steinberg's and Khrustalev's:

>>On 16 July [1918], a telegram in previously agreed-upon language came from Perm containing the order to exerminate the R-ovs [Romanovs].  At first (in May), the intention was to bring Nicholas to trial, but this was prevented by the advancing Whites.  On the 16th at 6 o'clock in the evening, Filipp G-n [Goloshchekin] decreed that the order be carried out.
.....
AGRBear


AGRBear
Title: Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Post by: AGRBear on December 18, 2005, 10:36:41 AM
What did Yurovsky write about the two bodies buried apart from the mass grave?  

His testimony of 1920 states:

>>We wanted to burn A. [Aleksei] and A.F., but by mistake the lady-in-waiting [he maid Demidova] ws burnt with A. instead.  We then immediately buried the remains<<

AGRBear