Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Stroganoffs => Topic started by: AkshayChavan on February 22, 2006, 03:08:50 PM

Title: The Stroganoffs
Post by: AkshayChavan on February 22, 2006, 03:08:50 PM
Thanks to my great obsession with the wealth of Russian nobility, i have been researching heavily on this topic. One of the most surprising findings of my research has been that the Stroganoff wealth on eve of the revolution is greatly exagerated. I dont even think that Stroganovs were among the top five richest families on eve of the revolution.

In the beginning of my argument, i would like to clearly state that i am not talking about the 16th and 17th century when Stroganovs were indeed among the richest in the world. This is specifically on eve of the revolution. My assumptions of wealth are based on four criteria as defined by Dominic Lieven in his book -
Agricultural land, Forestry, Urban property and Industry.

1) Agricultural land- It is true that Stroganoffs were largest landowners in Russia on eve of the revolution. They owned 14,00,000 desyatin of land. However, as Dominic Lieven states most of this land was arid Ural land. The land in Ukraine was valued almost 10 times as Ural lands. DL states that the most valuable lands as per their valuation belonged to Yussupovs followed by Orlov-Davydovs and then Sheremetevs. Thus, Stroganoffs did not have any agricultural land to derive income from.

2) Forestry -  This was the only source of income for Stroganoffs. They owned large Perm forests which brought good income.

3) Urban Property - Surprisingly, Stroganoffs did not own any large real estate investments. They owned just the Stroganoff Palace on Nevsky and the Pavel Stroganoff palace. This brought no income. The biggest landowners in StPetersburg were Princes Beloselsky-Belozersky who owned the entire Krestovsky Island which brought in fantastic income. Biggest Landowners in Moscow were Sheremetevs. Another family with very valuable real estate were Counts Stenbock-Fermor who owned hotels and shopping arcades. Shuvalovs owned six apartment buildings.

4) Industry - This brought in large income for nobles. While it is true that Stroganoffs owned large iron plants and mines, they were all bankrupt. In 1908, Count Stroganoff closed down all his mines and factories and decided to concentrate on forestry (Aristocracy in Europe , Page no: 48 ) . Even Demidoffs were facing heavy losses. The Nobles with highest income from industry were Princes Abamelek-Lazarev. Also Yussupovs, Shuvalovs, Sheremetevs and Orlov-Davydov had large industrial investments.

                Thus what we see from above is that Stroganoffs did not have large investments nor land. Their "Wealth" was only their art collection and palaces. They paled in comparison with the other nobles.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: AkshayChavan on February 23, 2006, 05:29:59 PM
I believe the most "under estimated" family in terms of wealth would be the Shuvalovs. Maybe because they were not very glamorous . However this would be the family with most number of wealthy branches. When we speak of "Sheremetevs" or "Orlov-Davydovs", we speak of joint property of two brothers. If taken individually they would not be in the top 10 list. However, in case of Shuvalovs, there are two Count Shuvalovs who would be in top 10 richest list based on their "individual" wealth. Count Michael Andreivich Shuvalov and Count Paul Petrovich Shuvalov, both first cousins were among the richest nobles in Russia. There were also Shuvalovs of Rundale Palace who were not as rich. Funnily, Shuvalovs made their money in the oldest way in the world. By "marrying it". Count Micheal Shuvalov inherited the entire wealth of Princes Vorontzov from his uncle. Similarly Count Paul Shuvalov inherited the entire Narishkin inheritance, including the Shuvalov palace on Fontanka from his mother. His wife Betzy Shuvalov was famous for her parties. Sadly both the branches of the Shuvalov family were extinct before the revolution.
The wealth of Count Micheal passed to Countess Vorontzov-Dashkov. Similarly Princess Olga Dolgoruky, sister of Count Paul Shuvalov brought 39,000 desyatin of land to the Dolgoruky family. She too is mentioned in the Vorontzov-Dashkov thread.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: frimousse on March 26, 2006, 06:49:03 PM
 ::) The last count Stroganoff was Sergey Alexandrovich (1852-1923) grandson of Sergey Grigorievich who sold a great part of his grand father's collection in Paris.
I think this is the portrait of the Stroganoff  I am talking about, as Sergey Alexandrovitch at 30 y old would have been very very tired and old on this portrait ????

Sergey Grigorievitch (so Sergey Alexandrovich's grand father) married his distant cousin Nathalia Pavlovna Stroganoff grand daughter of the great mecenate Alexandre Stroganoff and inheritated the fortune of the family. He was extremely gifted...
The Stroganoff family was talented and much more intellectually distinguished than other families...
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: james_h on March 30, 2006, 12:08:38 AM

I'm having trouble understanding....is there a disagreement here?

The portrait above is from the french version of... "Stroganoff: the palace and collections of a russian noble family" published by HARRY N. ABRAMS, INC. A publishing house which quite possibly has freemasonic conections. (I'm basing that on the company's logo, which would be fitting given this particular family's history within freemasonry :))

The subject in the portrait is Count Sergei Grigorievich Stroganoff.

Akshaychavan wrote:
"In 1908, Count Stroganoff closed down all his mines and factories and decided to concentrate on forestry"
This, presumably was Count Sergei Alexandrovich, by virtue of his being the one of only three Stroganoff Counts alive at the time. The others being his ( Childless?!?) uncles Pavel and Grigory.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: frimousse on March 30, 2006, 08:09:54 AM
Thank you I agree with you  ;)
By the way this book is absolutely marvellous !
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: AkshayChavan on March 30, 2006, 12:29:25 PM
Pavel Stroganoff died heirless. Gregory Stroganoff had a daughter Princess Maria Scherbatoff who was killed with her children during the revolution. For details see thread on "nobility killed during the revolution".
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on March 04, 2007, 05:20:42 PM
Palace stroganov
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/Numriser0002.jpg)
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on March 04, 2007, 05:22:14 PM
I've some more...I'll post later and hope that some would be interested -given the fact it takes quite a time to scan so if anybody really interested in...it would spare me time ,please let some info if you do have on this palaces,or pics...

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/Numriser0001.jpg)
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on June 15, 2007, 02:42:37 PM
I searched in the previous pages a part deidcated to this palace and found nothing...despite me not having many to post here,it deserve to have a special section for such an exceptional palace!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/Numriser0004-1.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/Numriser0003-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on November 10, 2007, 07:38:37 PM
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/palais%20st%20petersbourg/stroganovskipalace.jpg)

Vassia
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: polignac on February 23, 2008, 03:54:33 PM
Idalia or Idaliya or Idalya? Poletika was born in 1807 or 1811 and died in 1889. She was the illegimated daugther of Count Grigory Stroganov and of his second wife, Juliana de Oyenhausen e Almeida, a beautiful portuguese aristocrat, lover of Junot during the french invasion of Portugal.
Poletika was educated with the sons and heirs of the Stroganov fortune. She was distinguished by a beautiful appearance, rich culture, and a sharp mind. She was also a very intriguist aristocrat.
She married in 1829 with a colonel, Aleksandr Mikhailovich Poletika or Poletiki or Poletiko?. Nevertheless, she had a lover: Pyotr Petrovich Lanksoy. She was also a friend of Natalia Pushkina, and of D'Anthès. She was implicated in the scandal D'Anthès-Pushkin.

Do anyone know where did she lived? I know that she offered her apartment, in the cavalry-guardsmen’s quarters where her husband served, for the last meeting of Natalia and D’Anthes.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: polignac on February 23, 2008, 04:00:24 PM
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/martimjessfan/441px-Idalia_Poletica_portrait.jpg)
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 23, 2008, 04:17:18 PM
Wow, she looks really beautiful, even by the 21st Century standards. I never heard of her before this, thanks for posting!
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: gogm on February 25, 2008, 03:48:42 AM
Who was the artist?
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: polignac on February 25, 2008, 03:34:13 PM
I found this portait in the russian wikipedia. It says that the author was P.F.Sokolov.

http://209.85.135.104/translate_c?hl=pt-PT&langpair=ru%7Cen&u=http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25D0%259F%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0,_%25D0%2598%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%25D1%258F_%25D0%2593%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D1%258C%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: gogm on February 25, 2008, 10:27:13 PM
Thank you for the date and artist. What a story!
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ashanti01 on April 10, 2008, 04:05:36 PM
wasn't sure where to post these, but since they are watercolors of rooms of the Stroganov palace, I figured they would go here.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/StroganovFacade.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/YellowDrawing-Room.jpg)
Yellow Drawing Room

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/StroganovLibrary.jpg)
Library

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/Drawing-Room.jpg)
Drawing Room

Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ashanti01 on April 10, 2008, 04:07:39 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/DiningRoom.jpg)
Dining room

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/Boudoir.jpg)
Boudoir

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Stroganov%20palace/CornerRoomjpg.jpg)
Cornor room
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Mari on April 11, 2008, 04:17:06 AM
Absolutely beautiful! Do you know the history of this Palace?
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: BobG on April 11, 2008, 12:50:40 PM
The pictures posted by Vassili are of the Stroganoff Palace at 17 Nevsky Prospeckt on the Moika.  It was the palace of Count Sergei Stroganoff which today, I believe, is part of the Hermitage and is open to the public.

The house in the watercolors posted by Ashantio1 are of Count Paul Stroganoff's palace at 11 Sergeievskaya (formerly Chaykovskogo) ulitsa.  I can't remember the relationship between the two Stroganoffs.  After the revolution, two upper floors were added to the building taking away much of its character.

BobG
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ArchitectCS on July 21, 2009, 12:24:32 PM

I know that the Stroganov Palace was recently repainted its original pink and that the exterior is basically as Rastrelli designed it.  But does anyone know anything about the interiors?  My understanding is that some of Rastrelli's interiors are still intact, though I know that Voronikhin redesigned some as well.  Has anyone been in this palace?  Any information would be most welcome.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vladimir_V. on July 21, 2009, 01:46:43 PM
There is only one Rastrelli's interior - the Great Hall

(http://i065.radikal.ru/0907/9b/1d79ba3a8226.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)


website: http://www.rusmuseum.ru/eng/museum/complex/str_palace/
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ArchitectCS on July 22, 2009, 01:09:57 PM
Thanks Vladimir.  Too bad more hasn't been preserved.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Vladimir_V. on July 22, 2009, 01:56:27 PM
Stroganovs had a lot of money and they could change the interiors in the palace every year.  : )
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ancemondes on August 23, 2009, 07:03:19 PM
I am researching on the life of Juliana Almeida second wife of Count Grigory Stroganov. I was pleased and surprised to see the picture of Count Grigory's daughter, Idália.
But let me tell you she was not the daughter of Juliana, the second wife.
In a letter from Paris in 1824, October 8, she wrote:

J’ai passée  l'Eté a la campagne; j'habite encore dans ce moment le Chateau du General Andreony (?) qu'l a loué a Bayard (she called like this Stroganoff, because he was her galant savior) pour cette saison. La femme de Bayard a eté fort malade cet Eté ele a une maladie chronique dont je crois qu'elle reviendra dificillement. Elle passe son hiver a Dresde avec sa file. Bayard a eté passer six semaines cet Eté avec elle mais il est deja de retour: car il sait que je n'ait plus de bonheur sur la terre que sa presence et la continuité de son attachement pour moi; j'ai avec moi une jeune personne, fille d'une personne à laquelle il a eté attachez avant son arrivé en Espagne. C'est une fort agreable societé pour moi, et par reconaissance à son protecteur j’aime prendre soin d’elle  et la faire digne de celiu à qui elle ressemble tellemet. Elle s'apelle Idalia et est ausii jolie que son nom.

Juliana and Idalia were good friends and in other letters Juliana writes about Idalia and her marriage.
If any of you as information about Juliana and Count Grigory please let me know. For my part I have allready some good information but not enough about the life of the couple in S. Petersbourg.
Find information and picture here
 http://purl.pt/11450
 http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=24605
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Svetabel on August 24, 2009, 06:04:26 AM

In a letter from Paris in 1824, October 8, she wrote:

J’ai passée  l'Eté a la campagne; j'habite encore dans ce moment le Chateau du General Andreony (?) qu'l a loué a Bayard (she called like this Stroganoff, because he was her galant savior) pour cette saison. La femme de Bayard a eté fort malade cet Eté ele a une maladie chronique dont je crois qu'elle reviendra dificillement. Elle passe son hiver a Dresde avec sa file. Bayard a eté passer six semaines cet Eté avec elle mais il est deja de retour: car il sait que je n'ait plus de bonheur sur la terre que sa presence et la continuité de son attachement pour moi; j'ai avec moi une jeune personne, fille d'une personne à laquelle il a eté attachez avant son arrivé en Espagne. C'est une fort agreable societé pour moi, et par reconaissance à son protecteur j’aime prendre soin d’elle  et la faire digne de celiu à qui elle ressemble tellemet. Elle s'apelle Idalia et est ausii jolie que son nom.



I think it would be great to write in English in the English-speaking Forum. Please, translate the letter.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ancemondes on August 24, 2009, 04:04:55 PM
There we go in english (my best english, any way):
"I spent this summer in the country; I am staying in this moment at general Andreony's chateau rented by Bayard (the name Juliana gave to Stroganov, comparing him to the french heroe). Bayard's wife is very sik this summer with no hope of geting better. She will stay in Dresden during winter with her daughter. Bayard spent six weeks with her but now is coming back: he knows that his presence and the continuity of his attachment to me make my hapiness. I have with me a young girl, daughter of a person he met before going to Spain. It's a very good company for me, and (Stroganov) deserves that I take care of her and make her worthy a man which she ressembles so much. Her name is as nice as she is: Idalia"
This letter was sento to Julianas's sister, Frederica, in Portugal, writen in french.
I think this prooves that Idalia was no Juliana's daughter. I dont know exactly where was Grigory Stroganov before being ambassador to the court of Spain, and nothing about Idalia's real mother, place ant date of birth. France is a meer guess.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: Svetabel on August 25, 2009, 01:46:20 AM

This letter was sento to Julianas's sister, Frederica, in Portugal, writen in french.
I think this prooves that Idalia was no Juliana's daughter. I dont know exactly where was Grigory Stroganov before being ambassador to the court of Spain, and nothing about Idalia's real mother, place ant date of birth. France is a meer guess.


Thanks for translating. IMHO, the letter doesn't prove anything. Julaina could lie even to her own sister, why not?
Though I must say that Russian researchers have certain doubts about Idalia's maternity too.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ancemondes on August 28, 2009, 12:24:46 PM
I keep researching, and let you Know when more details are found.
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: bednayaliza on December 19, 2010, 12:24:39 PM
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5778/ps004b.th.jpg) (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/ps004b.jpg/)

Sergei Stroganov  near his palace Volishovo (Pskov district)



(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2005/ps003.th.jpg) (http://img259.imageshack.us/i/ps003.jpg/)


Eugenia Stroganov (Vassiltchikov)  wife of Sergei Stroganov
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: ancemondes on January 01, 2011, 01:16:41 PM
Very interesting photo of Sergei, I supose Sergei Alexandrovich.
Do you have more XIX century photos of the family?
Title: Re: The Stroganovs
Post by: bednayaliza on January 03, 2011, 12:39:15 PM
No, thats all I scanned from the book about  Stroganovs palace
Title: Re: The Stroganoffs
Post by: TimM on July 02, 2016, 07:16:13 AM
Did the Germans trash this palace in World War II as well?
Title: Re: The Stroganoffs
Post by: Svetabel on July 07, 2016, 05:14:43 AM
Did the Germans trash this palace in World War II as well?

No, they didn't. Still on its place.
Title: Re: The Stroganoffs
Post by: TimM on July 08, 2016, 12:02:08 PM
That's good to know.  They didn't trash this place the way they trashed Tsarskoe Selo.