Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Nicholas II => Topic started by: ALEXEI_P on March 21, 2006, 06:21:09 AM

Title: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: ALEXEI_P on March 21, 2006, 06:21:09 AM
Most esteemed members of the forum,

I have audited the forum for quite some time, but only recently become a member. (this is ony my third posting).  I greatly enjoy your lively discussions and seemingly infinite knowledge of Imperial Russia.

Something has bothered me for many years and I would like your input on the subject.

Does it bother any/many of you when authors use CZAR, CZARINA, ETC.?

It annoys and drives me to distraction when authors use "CZAR".

In my family and the ROCA--TSAR (in Roman-English print) and even Russian pronunciation it was always thus--TSAR-(soft 'ts'--not a harsh 'Z').

CZAR is a rough and common rendering in the pronunciation and incorrect. It is just vulgarization, akin to the European affectation, Romanov vs Romanoff.

Tsar is not a direct derivitive of the "Roman"- Caesar- as far as I have been led to believe and thus the spelling and pronunciation are wrong.  It - CZAR- is incorrect any annoying.  I think a standardization should be set, and what better place to start than here among fervent Imperial Russophiles?

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

My apologies if I come across as a snob, but this has bothered me for some time.

Spasiba,

Alexis
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: David_Pritchard on March 21, 2006, 12:55:50 PM
Dear Aleksei,

I always use the Russian word Tsar instead of the Polish word Czar as it is more appropriate for most of the topics. If I were writing on a Polish history forum, I am certain that I would refer to Aleksander I as Czar of Poland but on this forum he is always Tsar of Poland.

David


P.S. ROCA = Russian Orthodox Church in America
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 21, 2006, 05:54:06 PM
To be more precise there were no Tsars in Imperial Russia after October 1721.

That ancient title was superseeded when Peter I was styled Imperator by Senate Decree. Henceforth all rulers of the Russian Empire were either:

Imperator or Imperatritsa (when a female was in power)

Tsar' can be used informally and has entered the language as a general definition.

e.g. Nikolai II was titled:

"Imperator i Samoderjhets Vserossiyskii ..."

or in English translation:

Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias ....
;)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: David_Pritchard on March 21, 2006, 07:13:03 PM
To be ever more precise there were no Tsars of Imperial Russia but there were Tsars of some of the nations that comprised the Russian Empire.

For example, Emperor Nikolai II was the Tsar of Poland, the Tsar of Kazan, the Tsar of Astrakhan, the Tsar of Siberia, the Tsar of Cherson and the Tsar of Georgia.  

David
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 21, 2006, 09:09:12 PM
The various designations Tsar' Kazanskii etc including Velikii Knyaz' Smolenskii and Naslednik of Norway; form part of a long string of historic appellations that formed H.I.M.'s full title.

Rather than expressing the full title, in documents and such like, for the sake of simplicity, the last Head of State of Imperial Russia was:

Bozhiyu Milostiyu Mi Nikolai II,  
Imperator i Samoderjhets Vserossiyskii,
Tsar' Pol'skii, Velikii Knyaz' Finlyandskii  
i prochaya, i prochaya, i prochaya.


By God's Grace We Nikolai II,
Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias,
Tsar of Poland, Grand Duke of Finland,
and so on, and so on, and so on.

Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Helen on March 22, 2006, 03:37:53 AM
Quote
P.S. ROCA = Russian Orthodox Church in America

??? I may be mistaken, but isn't it the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 22, 2006, 03:52:09 AM
Quote
??? I may be mistaken, but isn't it the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?


Perhaps you are thinking about ROCOR = Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Helen on March 22, 2006, 05:57:15 AM
Yes, I am. I have seen ROCA used as an abbreviation for the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" or "Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia" many times in various meetings and newsletters, always referring to the world at large, and more specifically to churches in Western Europe, but not specifically to America.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 22, 2006, 06:42:13 AM
Quote
Yes, I am. I have seen ROCA used as an abbreviation for the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" or "Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia" many times in various meetings and newsletters, always referring to the world at large, and more specifically to churches in Western Europe, but not specifically to America.


Pity about those newsletters. Had they been in Russian, then there would not have been any confusion.

The word for "outside of Russia" in ROCOR = Zarubezhnaya.   ;)

Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Helen on March 22, 2006, 07:43:45 AM
 :) You're right; that would certainly eliminate confusion on this point. I am afraid, though, it would at the same time introduce all kinds of other problems. The Byzantine Rite of Uniate and Orthodox Churches in Western Europe attracts many Western people who do not speak Russian well and who prefer to read about the affairs of their communities in their mother tongues. It is good, though, to be more aware of the fact that the A may stand for Abroad in the texts that I come across personally, but is interpreted in a different way by many other people. Or perhaps I should say: by most other people. ;)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Mie on March 22, 2006, 07:53:39 AM
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Margarita Markovna on March 22, 2006, 08:07:13 AM
Quote
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)

Haha!

All I have to say on the subject is that 9 times out of 10 in the NY Times crossword puzzle, it's tsar not czar. ;D ;D
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Ortino on March 22, 2006, 05:29:44 PM
Quote
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)


I had a situation like that once. A history teacher of mine used to circle the word "tsar" on my paper every time I spelled it like that. I happened to have a Romanov book with me one day and I showed her five or six places where the word "tsar" was used and how it was supposed to be written--she gave me a look and walked away. She nevered spelled it "czar" again.  ;)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 22, 2006, 05:34:20 PM
Quote

I had a situation like that once. A history teacher of mine used to circle the word "tsar" on my paper every time I spelled it like that. I happened to have a Romanov book with me one day and I showed her five or six places were the word "tsar" was used and how it was spelt--she gave me a look and walked away. She nevered spelled it "czar" again.  ;)


Well done Ortino,

Now the next lesson for that history teacher is to inform them that "Emperor " is the correct title!   ;)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Caleb on March 22, 2006, 09:50:17 PM
I read that Nicholas II prefferred the title "tsar" as opposed to "emperor". I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English. I also know that English-speakers have a tendency to say things phonetically (my brother said it was the same in China) example Peking vs. Beijing, Sian vs. Xi'an, or Soochow vs. Suzhou. Peking can be written that way, but due to the Chinese "accent" they pronounce it Beijing. It's the issue of the Wade-Giles system vs. the more accurate Pinyin system.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Belochka on March 22, 2006, 11:24:26 PM
Quote
I read that Nicholas II prefferred the title "tsar" as opposed to "emperor".


That is quite possible Caleb.

Prefering to live in Tsarskoe Selo certainly had distinctive imperial appeal for Nikolai II.  ;)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Fay on March 29, 2006, 08:01:47 AM
David, may I, as a Polish, point out that Alexander I was King of Poland, not the Czar, because our country was at the time, as it had been decided during the Viennese Congress, The Congress Kingdom of Poland.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Grand Duchess Marishka on April 15, 2006, 06:39:15 PM
I hope I offend none in saying this, but the term Tsar, spelled like so, is more eye appealing nonetheless. I have often thought that the word spelled czar isn't so ellaborate. But that's just me.

Peace.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: David_Pritchard on April 15, 2006, 09:38:43 PM
Quote
I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.

David




Title: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Tania+ on April 19, 2006, 04:49:48 PM
I had wondered what the Tsar's titles was and found the following information.

The Tsar's complete title is as follows:

Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Tsar of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Kazan, Astrakhan, of Poland, Siberia, of Touric Chersonese, of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, of Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Somogotia, Bialstock, Karelia, Tver, Yougouria, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria, and other countries; Lord and Grand Duke of Lower Novgorod, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslav, Belozero, Oudoria, Obduria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislav and all the region of the North, Lord and Sovereign of the countries of Iveria, Cartalinia, Kabardinia, and the provinces of Armenia, Sovereign of the Circassian Princes and the Mountain Princes, Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig Holstein, of Storman, of the Ditmars, and of Oldenbourg, etc.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: David_Pritchard on April 19, 2006, 11:09:07 PM
Both Emperors Nikolai II and Aleksander III used the same full titles. Other emperors and empresses had various additions and subtractions to their list of territories.

Tania has posted a very good list of the full titles of Emperor Nikolai II, but I do see a few things that need to be adjusted, it could be that she simply omitted a word when typing the list, or transposed a word as I have done this when I have typed out the full titles. My changes and additions will be in bold type.

Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Touric-Cherson, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, of Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia and Finland, Prince of Estland, Livland, Courland and Semigalia, Somogotia, Bialstock, Karelia, Tver, Yougouria, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria, and other countries; Lord and Grand Duke of Lower Novgorod, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslav, Belozero, Oudoria, Obduria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislav and all the region of the North, Lord and Sovereign of the countries of Iveria, Kartali, Kabardinia, and the provinces of Armenia, Sovereign of the Circassian Princes and the Mountain Princes, Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig Holstein, of Stormarn, of the Ditmarschen and of Oldenbourg, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.


1. No Tsar of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod but rather Emperor and Autocrat of these four cities.

2. The word Tsar is repeated in front of the names of each of the territories of Kazan, Astrakhan, Poland, Siberia, Touric-Cherson, Georgia.

3. The Russians use the words Estland and Livland in the titles. Estland has not always been equal to Estonia but rather what is today Northern Estonia. Livonia includes Southern Estonia and Northern and Eastern Latvia, Livland is a smaller territory.

4. I really prefer the word Kartali to the word Cartalinia. This is the Principality that the Princes Bagration-Moukhransky once ruled.

5. The names of these German duchies are spelled Stormarn and Ditmarschen.

6. The titles of Princes, Kings and Emperors are usually ended in et cetera (always three times) or ec. (no 't', always three times). The Russians end the Imperial titles with [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103], [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103], [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103]. Meaning et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.


David Pritchard



Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: David_Pritchard on April 20, 2006, 04:26:13 PM
In my effort to list all the provinces, cities, etc., I forgot to add the official introduction to the emperor's titles to my post.

God's Enlightened and Merciful Mediator, We Nikolai the Second, Emperor and Autocrat....................

I hope that my translation is accurate as I had great difficulty finding the exact words in my dictionary.


David
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: TheAce1918 on July 03, 2006, 10:55:55 PM
I use both, but more times I use TSAR.  It makes more respectful sense and it seems to be more common in the literary pieces about the subject.  
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Johnny on August 13, 2006, 09:17:06 PM
Most esteemed members of the forum,


Tsar is not a direct derivitive of the "Roman"- Caesar- as far as I have been led to believe and thus the spelling and pronunciation are wrong.  It - CZAR- is incorrect any annoying.  I think a standardization should be set, and what better place to start than here among fervent Imperial Russophiles?


Alexei,
You were not misled. Tsar is the shortened form of Tsezar. The longer form often appeared in official documents. Tsezarevich nad Tsezarevna were also very common, being invariably used under all the official portraits of the Royal children. Czar is the actual spelling of the word in Polish. But Tsar is a mere English transliteration of the Russian word. The same word is spelled as Zar in Italian and German and pronounced approximately the same as Tsar. In fact spelled in Cyrillic both Caesar and Tsezar will look and sound identical, which means the Russians did not distinguish between the two. And since either Czar or Tsar or Zar are simply attempts to spell the Russian word with the Roman alphabet, I think they are all equally valid, for neither one is the way the actual Russian word is spelled.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: dunya on March 17, 2007, 12:46:17 PM
I dont think Nikolay II ever used the title ''emperor'' he always did go by Tsar.

You saying; Tsar is a  English translation of the Russian word , I always pronounced it as ''Zar'' as English is not being my native lingo.
It is quite different in Russian though, its true that the first letter is ''Ts'' ; however pronounciation of the letter is not ''Z'' its  more like''che''. I dont know if I could explain it, the whole word  sounds more like ''Char'' ...
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Johnny on March 23, 2007, 01:40:40 PM
I dont think Nikolay II ever used the title ''emperor'' he always did go by Tsar.

You saying; Tsar is a  English translation of the Russian word , I always pronounced it as ''Zar'' as English is not being my native lingo.
It is quite different in Russian though, its true that the first letter is ''Ts'' ; however pronounciation of the letter is not ''Z'' its  more like''che''. I dont know if I could explain it, the whole word  sounds more like ''Char'' ...
I never said the word was pronounced like "zar". I know exactly how the word is pronounced in Russian. It's only spelled "ZAR" in Italian because in that language the letter Z is pronounced TS. But I agree with you that a lot of English speaking people mispronounce Tsar as Zar.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Binky on March 23, 2007, 02:55:09 PM
They should all think about pizza.  No body calls it peeza do they.  But its hard to say it right if you leave the pee off at the start.  So if people could just think about a pizzar and leave off the pee they could say his name more easy.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: dunya on March 23, 2007, 10:44:42 PM
Hey Johnny,

I didnt say ''you'' said the word is pronounced like "zar". Its just T and  S together, in the beginning of the word is not common in latin alphabet , so its normal that people not knowing how to pronounce it, right ? ''Zar'' sounds more likely in English I guess. It's kind of like saying Nicholas instead of good old ''Nikolay''.

Best wishes.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Johnny on March 29, 2007, 06:20:01 PM
Hey Johnny,

I didnt say ''you'' said the word is pronounced like "zar". Its just T and  S together, in the beginning of the word is not common in latin alphabet , so its normal that people not knowing how to pronounce it, right ? ''Zar'' sounds more likely in English I guess. It's kind of like saying Nicholas instead of good old ''Nikolay''.

Best wishes.

I see your point.

cheers
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: AGRBear on March 30, 2007, 03:41:24 PM
I don't recall why but I know that it was around the time Lenin took power,  the Bolsheviks used   "Czar"  which  was  to show disrespect toward the Royal Family.  The old  loyal groups and those who wished to show respect to the Romanovs used the word "Tsar".     I've noticed in the older books some loyalists called Lenin the "Bloody Czar" .....    I've never seen Lenin labeled "Tzar".  So,  maybe, it's roots are something  just from that time period and was understood by the "Whites" and "Reds".   

AGRBear
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Binky on April 03, 2007, 06:57:23 AM
I wish Nicholas liked to be called emperor so we could all call him that and not worry about disrespecting him by spelling the other name the wrong way.  I know how Nicholas feels because it hurts my feelings when people put an e in my name when theres' really not one there.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: TheAce1918 on April 03, 2007, 09:21:30 AM
I would imagine he welcomed the term Emperor as much as Tsar. 
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Georgiy on April 06, 2007, 10:04:42 PM
I really can't see that it would have bothered him at all, whatever way it was spelt in English. In Russian after all it is царь, the letter ц taking care of that 'ts' sound (or 'cz' sound however you wish to portray it using English letters...)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Nadezhda Edvardovna on April 16, 2007, 02:31:51 PM
What does the word look like in Russian?  Perhaps the best road to take is to stop writing in English, write the word in Russian, and then resume English, as is so frequently done with famous French words.  Pax, N.
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 01, 2009, 03:10:01 PM
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Tina Laroche on October 01, 2009, 03:31:42 PM
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century

FA once posted this in another thread - on the same subject...

Nicholas was, absolutely speaking, Emperor, and Alexandra was Empress.  Tsar/Tsarina were formal, former terms, often used, but not proper.

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764. 
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 02, 2009, 02:05:51 PM
Thank you very much for the information Tina!
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: richard_1990 on October 14, 2009, 07:08:03 AM
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century

FA once posted this in another thread - on the same subject...

Nicholas was, absolutely speaking, Emperor, and Alexandra was Empress.  Tsar/Tsarina were formal, former terms, often used, but not proper.

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764. 
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html
That's interesting Tina. Thank you. Do you think if a constitutional monarch (Romanov's) was established in Russia that the European Royal houses would object to them claiming the title of Emperor/Empress?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 28, 2009, 09:05:21 AM
Quote
I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.
The spelling czar is often identified as Polish, as is done here, but is that really correct? царь is today spelled car in Polish, the pronunciation being /tsar/. "Czar" would be pronounced /char/ in modern Polish.

Polish spelling might have changed, but a rudimentary look around on the net seems to point to "czar" being an outdated Hungarian spelling. (Though nowadays it's cár also in Hungarian.) Because Croatia for centuries was a part of the Hungarian kingdom, the spelling convention cz=[ts] also found its way into Croatian and its neighbouring language Slovene (but are now outdated there too, it's car nowadays in both languages.). And bingo: The guy who actually coined the spelling "czar", the Austrian diplomat Sigismund von Herberstein, in his Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii was from the Duchy of Carniola (nowadays in Slovenia) and was bilingual German-Slovenian. He evidently used a contemporary Slovene-Croatian-Hungarian spelling convention when transscribing the term for the Muscovite ruler.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Vecchiolarry on November 28, 2009, 09:59:45 AM
Hi,

Personally, I like and use the word "Czar" for the Russian Emperor(s) whenever the need arises...
It seems more to link with its origin "Caesar" for me and its derivative "Kaiser" too....

Also, here in Alberta, there is a town named 'Czar' with a large Russian and smaller Ukranian population;  and they are the ones who named it in the 1880's...

Larry
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on November 28, 2009, 11:06:35 AM
What does the word look like in Russian?  Perhaps the best road to take is to stop writing in English, write the word in Russian, and then resume English, as is so frequently done with famous French words.  Pax, N.

That actually wouldn't be a bad idea.  However, I think "tsar" is much closer to how it's actually spelled in Russian.

I'm confused.  If the emperors liked "impereator" so much, why was the national anthem "Bozhe Tsarya Khrani," or "God Save the Tsar" in English?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Janet Ashton on November 28, 2009, 04:36:49 PM
Quote
I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.
The spelling czar is often identified as Polish, as is done here, but is that really correct? царь is today spelled car in Polish, the pronunciation being /tsar/. "Czar" would be pronounced /char/ in modern Polish.

Polish spelling might have changed, but a rudimentary look around on the net seems to point to "czar" being an outdated Hungarian spelling. (Though nowadays it's cár also in Hungarian.) Because Croatia for centuries was a part of the Hungarian kingdom, the spelling convention cz=[ts] also found its way into Croatian and its neighbouring language Slovene (but are now outdated there too, it's car nowadays in both languages.). And bingo: The guy who actually coined the spelling "czar", the Austrian diplomat Sigismund von Herberstein, in his Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii was from the Duchy of Carniola (nowadays in Slovenia) and was bilingual German-Slovenian. He evidently used a contemporary Slovene-Croatian-Hungarian spelling convention when transscribing the term for the Muscovite ruler.

You may well be correct about the Hungarian origins of this spelling, but Slovene at this time was barely a written language at all and I seriously doubt that this word featured frequently when it was. I think the "cz" digraph for "ts" may come from early German texts German originally; in Slovenian (later) it denoted the letter now written simply "c" with a hacek, which sounds like the Polish cz.

Conversely, perhaps the spelling "czar" was supposed to denote the bi-syllablic word? (as in Tse-sar)Though this seems unlikely unless the "c" as rendering of "ts" was common at that time, which I doubt.

PS I think I know you under another screen name elsewhere ! :-)
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2009, 05:00:48 PM
I believe Nicholas II's title included "Tsar" of ______ and    "Emperor" of All the Russias.   Does anyone have is full title?

AGRBear 

Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
I was informed that  the title is found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar#Full_style_of_Russian_Sovereigns

which is true, however, it is only in part and not the complete title.

>>We, ------ by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, and Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgaria and other territories; Lord and Grand Duke of Nizhni Novgorod, Sovereign of Chernigov, Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl, and all northern territories; Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories - hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Circassians and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth."<<
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 06, 2009, 07:20:12 PM
Interesting about the German and tse-tsar theories, Janet. At least it was most unlikely Polish:
You may well be correct about the Hungarian origins of this spelling,
In the English Wikipedia article about the Hungarian alphabet I actually found it mentioned that cz is an older spelling of c, retained in some surnames like Czukor (aka Cukor).

Quote
PS I think I know you under another screen name elsewhere ! :-)
I too know you from Etoile / Unofficial Royalty! I got a bit bored with the folks there. Most of them don't know that Wikipedia exists in other languages than English....

Researching the word tsar, it dawned on me that it has was in actual, official use for the Russian head of state for a relatively short period of time (174 years.) But yet it is deeply ingrained in Russian sayings, folk tales and mythology etc. Was it so well known to people because it was used in the Bible and in church about the Biblical kings?


Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 08, 2009, 06:40:46 AM
Prince of Estland, Livland, Courland and Semigalia [..] Karelia
Interesting that the Russian Emperor was prince of these territories, which were duchies when they were ruled by the Swedes and Germans.

It just shows that князь can be said to cover both West European "prince" and "duke", this is of course relevant for the grand duke vs. grand prince translation debate.
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 21, 2010, 09:23:20 PM
Instead of arguing about whether Великий князь should be rendered Grand Duke or Grand Prince (as seen above the terms do overlap to some extent), we should rather discuss whether Император и Самодержец Всероссийский should be rendered Empeor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Emperor and Autocrat of all (the) Russians or All-Russian Emperor and Autocrat? (The latter being the literal meaning in Russian.)

I know that the Imperial Government used empereur et autocrate de toutes les Russies and "Empeor and Autocrat of all the Russias" as the official translation in diplomatic handbooks etc., so it's merely an academic argument. But the fact is that all three translations have been used at some point, in Latin, German, French or English. See this learned discussion on alt.talk.royalty about Peter III's Latin title (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/e18fa6ea93bf4d09/ad58486a11ff00ac?lnk=gst&q=totius#ad58486a11ff00ac) for some interesting background.

If boys, girls and apple pie can be All-American, a former German reactionary association Alldeutscher Verband and the Swedish premier football league Allsvenskan, why can't Nicholas II be All-Russian Emperor and Autocrat?

Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: rosieposie on February 22, 2010, 03:26:16 AM
All I can say is ShamWOW! On his titles.  I did hear a part of it on Rasputin (Alan Rickman version) when Alexei (Freddy Finlay) rattles it off his title.  It is such a mouthful.
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 19, 2010, 04:45:32 AM
All I can say is ShamWOW! On his titles.  I did hear a part of it on Rasputin (Alan Rickman version) when Alexei (Freddy Finlay) rattles it off his title.  It is such a mouthful.
Actually, when you consider how long titles (of pretence) many German princelings sported, I am surprised that the ruler of the largest empire on Earth didn't have an even longer title!

BTW did Nicholas' titles specifically cover all of the territory of the Russian Empire? What about Kamchatka, for example? Was it covered by the "Tsardom of Siberia", even though the actual Khanate of Siberia never extended that far? Or did "Sovereign of all the North Country" take care of that?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: AnastasiaNikolaevna on July 14, 2010, 07:35:19 PM
Sorry, I didn't know where to put this so I decided to put it on Nicholas's thread...I hope this is OK!

Just wondering, how do YOU spell Tsar? I usually spell it TSAR, but I've also seen it spelled CZAR.

I know there really isn't a right or wrong way because Russian isn't like English, but just wondering...
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: TimM on July 15, 2010, 02:02:23 AM
I've seen it spelled both ways.  I guess either one is acceptable.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 15, 2010, 05:28:26 AM
It was already discussed before, take a look here: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6628.0

By the way, I always prefer to spell TSAR.
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: AnastasiaNikolaevna on July 15, 2010, 07:00:21 AM
Me, too. Thanks!
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: TimM on July 16, 2010, 07:11:44 PM
It comes from the word Caesar, as does the German Kaiser.
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2010, 07:08:16 PM
...[in part....]

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764.  
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html

There needs to be a tiny little correction in this statement.   Peter the Great rose above the Prussian King Frederick Wilhelm I.  

The Prussian Kings remained Kings until  King Wilhelm I   was  proclaimed Emperor [Kaiser] of Germany in the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles on  18 Jan 1871.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 17, 2010, 08:09:58 PM
 The Hohenzollerns remained kings of Prussian, after the creation of  the German Empire.   The same as the  kings of Bavaria, Wurtemburg, Saxony, etc.
 The last Kaiser abdicated only as Emperor of Germany,  but not as King of Prussia.
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2010, 02:37:05 PM
My wording was off.  
Thanks for making it clear that the Emperors of Germany, also,   held the title of King of Prussia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 09, 2010, 01:30:14 PM
Lol, I wonder if Dostoyevsky was inspired by the Tsar's titles when he wrote in "Crime and Punishment" that "за весь Шлезвиг-Гольштейн не отдаст", i.e. that Dounia Raskolnikova would not give up her inner freedom to Luzhin for "all Schleswig-Holstein"!

Oh, now I see.... it was published in 1866! Well that, explains a lot!
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 13, 2010, 12:17:21 PM
It's funny that there is a lot of discussion about whether the ц in царь should be rendered ts or cz, while the fact that the most exotic part of the word to non-Russian ears is the palatalisation of the r, i.e. the pronunciation is [tsarʲ], hence the soft sign ь. To pronounce it correctly, you must lift your tongue towards the hard palate of your mouth while pronouncing the (rolled) r.
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Griae on October 14, 2010, 05:16:44 AM
In Dutch, the word is always written as tsaar. I always use this word when I teach my pupils about Russia. I explain that it is the Russian word for emperor, coming from the same 'Caesar' as the German 'Kaiser' or the Dutch 'keizer'.
The kinds really like the for them foreign words. Tsaar, Tsarevich etc. It gives an extra flavour to this topic, gives it something special.


kind regards, Bettina
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 14, 2010, 06:04:14 PM
I explain that it is the Russian word for emperor

I don't expect you to confuse your pupils with such fine nuances, but that is a truth with some modifications: Compare e.g. Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich's play "Царь Иудейский", "The King of the Jews / The Jewish King / The King of Judea." He clearly meant Iesus Christus Rex Iudæoreum, not the кесар Август, Kesar Avgust, the emperor referred to in the Russian Christmas Gospel. "Tsar" is a rather unique title, difficult to translate, just like stadhouder. :-)

Coming to think of it, the Dutch situation vis-à-vis the Holy Roman Empire is a bit like the Russian in relation with the Byzantine Empire - a gradual self-liberation and elevation, title-wise:
Counts of Holland - Grand Princes of Moscow,
Grand Dukes of the West and their (Hereditary) Stadtholders -  Tsars of the Third Rome and finally:
Sovereign Prince and King - Autocrat and Sovereign Emperor

As opposed to "apparently eternal kingdoms" like England, France, Denmark, Poland, Hungary etc.
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: TimM on October 16, 2010, 11:40:39 AM
I've seen it spelled both ways in various books.
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Превед on November 03, 2013, 04:05:28 PM
A similar issue occurs when spelling a name of morganatic (in)famy: Zarnekau (ancient Slavic name deried from чёрный, black, and pronounced /'tsarnekau/ in German) in Russian. Should it be spelled orthographically, as Зарнекау, or phonetically as Царнекау?
Title: Re: TSAR VS CZAR
Post by: Превед on December 27, 2013, 03:59:51 PM
The word for "outside of Russia" in ROCOR = Zarubezhnaya.

Alternatively and officially evidently also Русская православная церковь заграницей - zagranitsey - as in граница / granitsa = German Grenze (= border) - evidently a Slavic loanword (seen in the East German placename Granitz, which like most German -itz names not surprisingly are feminine!) How marvellous isn't that, that German (and thereby the Scandinavian languages) borrowed that word from Slavic! Think of all those Germanic - Slavic borders... from the Dark Age Limes Saxoniæ in Holstein to Российско-норвежская граница - den norsk-russiske grensen (the Russo-Norwegian border) by the Barents Sea - the world's most peaceful border between a major power and a small country - undisturbed since it was established by Bernadotte / Carl XIV Johan and Nicholas I in 1826.

Speaking of German and Slavic and the thread's cæsarian topic it's funny how misleading the царица / tsaritsa - Zarin / czarina / tsarina confusion would be applied to other Russian words: Pодина / rodina means nation, fatherland, motherland, homeland while (Бого)родица / (Bogo)roditsa means (God-)bearer (Theotokos / Mother of God).
Title: Re: The Tsar's Titles
Post by: Inok Nikolai on May 08, 2014, 04:07:49 PM
In my effort to list all the provinces, cities, etc., I forgot to add the official introduction to the emperor's titles to my post.

God's Enlightened and Merciful Mediator, We Nikolai the Second, Emperor and Autocrat....................

I hope that my translation is accurate as I had great difficulty finding the exact words in my dictionary.


David

A more recent related question from another thread on the Forum:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17835.msg535240#msg535240
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Forum Admin on May 08, 2014, 04:39:16 PM
To remind people, this is what the Imperial Government of Russia had to say on the subject:

The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty. Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns unil 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764.

- Statesman's Handbook for Russia
1896 - By the Chancery of the Committee of Ministers, St. Petersburg

Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Превед on May 08, 2014, 04:45:28 PM
This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns unil 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt

Shame on the Imperial Government for transliterating directly from (German in) Cyrillic instead of using the Swedish form Nystad. ( Uusikaupunki in Finnish.) :-)

Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Превед on February 17, 2015, 05:05:08 AM
In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764.

King Władysław IV of Poland claimed from 1610 and onwards, in competition with the first Romanov tsar, to be not only "elected Grand Duke of Moscow", but sometimes even "obrany wielki czar moskiewski" - elected grand tsar of Moscow"! Note the contemporary Polish spelling czar - today car.

Source: Titles of European hereditary rulers - Poland (http://eurulers.altervista.org/poland.html)

All untill Poland was finally dismantled in 1795, the Kings of Poland claimed to be Grand Dukes of Kiev, Smolensk, Severia and Chernigov, territories that had been lost to Russia in the 17th century, even of Russia, although this "Russia" referred to an ill-defined Red / Black / White Rus in modern Ukraine - Belarus - southeastern Poland.

Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Nemos on December 20, 2015, 02:35:18 AM
На каких фото Император на яхте Александрия, а не на Штандарте ?
Which photos Emperor yacht Alexandria, rather than on the Standard?
Title: Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
Post by: Nemos on January 02, 2016, 10:52:18 AM
http://geglov2.narod.ru/photo/
По Вырубовой фото на яхте Полярная Звезда. ..
By Vyrubova photos on a yacht Polar Star. ..