Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Iberian Royal Families => Topic started by: aron on September 28, 2005, 11:28:11 AM

Title: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: aron on September 28, 2005, 11:28:11 AM
I once read on this newsgroup that Maria Luisa was pregnant for some 24 times!
I can only find 15 recorded births:

B2. CARLOS IV Antonio Pascual Francisco Javier Juan Nepomuceno José Januario Serafin Diego, King of Spain (1788-5.5.1808), *Portici 11/12.11.1748, +Naples 19.1.1819, bur Escorial; m.San Ildefonso 4.9.1765 Pss Maria Luisa of Bourbon-Parma (*9.12.1751 +2.1.1819)
C1. CARLOS Clemente Antonio de Padua Januario Pascual José Francisco de Asis Francisco de Paula Luís Vicente Ferrer Rafael, Infant of Spain, *Escorial 19.9.1771, +El Pardo 7.3.1774, bur Escorial
C2. CARLOS Domingo Eusebio Rafael José Antonio Juan Nepomuceno Gabriel Julian Vicente Ferrer Andrès-Avelino Luís Fernando Angel Francisco Pasqual Joaquin Cayetano Ignacio Manuel Raimundo Januario Francisco de Paula, Infant of Spain, *El Pardo 5.3.1780, +Aranjuez 11.6.1783, bur Escorial
C3. CARLOS Francisco de Paula Domingo Antonio José Raimundo Diego Vicente Ferrer Juan Nepomuceno Isidro Pascual Pedro de Alcantara Fernando Felipe Luís Cayetano Gregorio Joaquin Lorenzo Justiniano Julian, Infant of Spain, *San Ildefonso 5.9.1783, +San Ildefonso 11.11.1784, bur Escorial
C4. FELIPE Francisco de Paula Domingo Antonio José Raimundo Diego Vicente Ferrer Juan Nepomuceno Isidro Pascual Pedro de Alcantara Fernando Felipe Luís Cayetano Gregorio Joaquin Lorenzo Justiniano Julian, Infant of Spain, *San Ildefonso 5.9.1783, +San Ildefonso 18.10.1784, bur Escorial
C5. FERNANDO VII Maria Francisco de Paula Domingo Vicente Ferrer Antonio José Joaquin Pascual Diego Juan Nepomuceno Januario Francisco Javier Rafael Miguel Gabriel Calixto Cayetano Fausto Luís Raimundo Gregorio Lorenzo Geronimo, King of Spain (1808/14-33), *San Ildefonso 13.10.1784, +Madrid 29.9.1833, bur Escorial; 1m: Barcelona 6.10.1802 Pss Maria Antonia of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (*14.12.1784 +21.5.1806); 2m: Madrid 29.9.1816 Infanta Maria Isabel of Portugal (*29.5.1797 +26.12.1818); 3m: Madrid 20.10.1819 Pss Josepha of Saxony (*6.12.1803 +17.5.1829); 4m: Madrid 11.12.1829 Pss Maria Cristina of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (*27.4.1806 +13.9.1878)
D1. [2m.] Maria Luisa ISABEL, Infanta of Spain, *Madrid 21.8.1817, +Madrid 9.1.1818, bur Escorial
D2. [4m.] Queen Maria ISABEL II Luisa of Spain (1833-1868), deposed 30.9.1868, and abdicated 25.6.1870, *Madrid 10.10.1830, +Paris 9.4.1904, bur Escorial; m.Madrid 10.10.1846 her cousin, Inft Francisco de Asis (*13.5.1822 +13.4.1902)
D3. [4m.] Maria LUISA FERNANDA, Infanta of Spain, *Madrid 30.1.1832, +Seville 2.2.1897, bur Escorial; m.Madrid 10.10.1846 Antoine d'Orléans, Duc de Montpensier, Infant of Spain (*31.7.1824, +4.2.1890)
C6. CARLOS Maria Isidro Benito, Infant of Spain, Conde de Molina; he objected to the alteration in the succession to the throne to allow his niece Isabel II to become Queen, and he and his descendants [they and their partisans were known as the Carlists] fought for the throne for decades; *Aranjuez 29.3.1788, +Trieste 10.3.1855; 1m: Madrid 22.9.1816 Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (*22.4.1800 +4.9.1834); 2m: Azcoitia 20.10.1838 Infanta Maria Teresa of Portugal, Pss of Beira (*29.4.1793 +17.1.1874)
C7. Felipe, *Aranjuez 1791, +Madrid 1794, bur Escorial
C8. FRANCISCO de PAULA Antonio Maria, Infant of Spain, Duque de Cadiz, *Madrid 10.3.1794, +Madrid 13.8.1865; 1m: Madrid 12.6.1819 his niece Pss Luisa of Bourbon-Two Siciles (*24.10.1804 +29.1.1844); 2m: (morganatically) 1851 Dona Teresa Arredondo (+Madrid 29.12.1863), a balerina
C9. CARLOTA Joaquina Teresa Cayetana, Infanta of Spain, *Aranjuez 25.4.1775, +Queluz 7.1.1830, bur Sao Vicente de Fota, nr Lisabon; m.Lisbon 9.6.1785 King João VI of Portugal (*13.5.1767 +10.3.1826)
C10. MARIA LUISA Carlota, Infanta of Spain, *San Ildefonso 11.9.1777, +San Ildefonso 2.7.1782, bur Escorial
C11. MARIA AMELIA, Infanta of Spain, *El Pardo 9.1.1779, +Madrid 22.7.1798, bur Escorial; m.San Ildefonso 25.8.1795 her uncle Infant Antonio of Spain (*31.12.1755 +20.4.1817)
C12. MARIA LUISA Josefina Antonieta, Infanta of Spain, Dss of Lucca (1815-24), *San Ildefonso 6.7.1782, +Rome 13.3.1824; m.San Ildefonso 25.8.1795 Luigi, King of Etruria, Pr of Bourbon-Parma (*Piacenza 5.7.1773, +Florence 27.5.1803)
C13. MARIA ISABEL, Infanta of Spain, *Madrid 6.7.1789, +Portici 13.9.1848; 1m: Naples 19.8.1802 King Francesco I of the Two Sicilies (*19.8.1777 +8.11.1830); 2m: Naples 15.1.1839 Cte Francesco del Balzo (*17.5.1805, +15.4.1882)
C14. MARIA TERESA Felipina, Infanta of Spain, *Aranjuez 16.2.1791, +Escorial 2.11.1794, bur there
C15. FELIPE Maria Francisco, Infant of Spain, *Aranjuez 28.3.1792, +Madrid 1.3.1794, bur Escorial

Does anybody have some details about the other 9 pregnancies?
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: umigon on September 28, 2005, 01:58:20 PM
Here is the complete list of María Luisa's pregnancies and their results:

1. Carlos Clemente (1771-1774).

2. Carlota Joaquina (1775-1830).

3. Miscarriage of a four-month daughter 19 Dec 1775.

4. Stillborn daughter of six month pregnancy (16/8/1776).

5. María Luisa Carlota (1777-1782).

6. Miscarriage of one month foetus (22/1/1778).

7. María Amalia (1779-1798).

8. Carlos Domingo (1780-1783).

9. Four months and a half miscarried son (17/1/1781).

10. María Luisa (1782-1824).

11. Carlos Francisco (1783-1784) and Felipe Francisco (1783-1784).

12. Fernando VII (1784-1833).

13. Carlos María Isidro (1788-1855).

14. María Isabel (1789-1848).

15. Miscarriage of a pregnancy of not much more than a month (4/12/1789).

16. Miscarriage of a single month pregnancy (30/1/1790).

17. Another early miscarriage (14/3/1790).

18. María Teresa (1791-1794).

19. Felipe María (1792-1794).

20. Stillborn son, 5 and a half months pregnancy (11/1/1793).

21. Francisco de Paula (1794-1865).

22. Miscarried son of four and a half months pregnancy (20/3/1796).
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: aron on September 28, 2005, 02:54:15 PM
Thank you for sharing this information.
Where did you get it from? Most reliable sources (like the Europaische Stammtafeln) doesn;t give these pregnancies.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: umigon on September 28, 2005, 03:07:16 PM
The list without concrete dates can be found in "Las Reinas de España", by Fernando González-Doria. The dates I copied them from an old book in my grandparents's home. Next time I pay them a visit I'll try to search for it!
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: aron on October 01, 2005, 03:12:06 AM
By the way, is it true that children numbers 13 to 24 were mostly fathered by lovers of Maria Luisa (like Godoy)?
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: umigon on October 01, 2005, 11:32:05 AM
That, of course, we will never know unless the Royal Family gives permission for DNA tests taken on their rests. However, it must be said, to be fair, that there is absolutely NO proof that María Luisa and Godoy ever had sexual relationships. In my opinion, they didn't have them, but that is just my opinon!
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 17, 2006, 09:21:12 PM
I'm a Goya's fan, but I was searching at the net nice pics made of the Royal family (all its members) by OTHER artist than him. But I found almost nothing. Does someone have some pics of Queen Maria Luisa, Carlos IV and their children? I will like to know them. If you have some painted by Goya, post them too. I just loooove his art and I'm a studious of his life.

                       RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 18, 2006, 08:04:33 PM
I already know their story and in a very detailed way, I must said, since this is the period of Spain History that I choose to write a monography at History University some years ago now. It's not an admirable story, but it's interesting. It was a very important moment for Spain and the developpement of different ideas who came directly from French Revolution and the Illustrate Minister (sorry, my English is quite poor to try to explain why I asked these pics). I just wanted to have pics of all characters involved in this story: the bad ones and the good ones. Who could doubt about Godoy bad intentions, ambition and... hem... bad life ? Not me, be sure of it...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: umigon on May 24, 2006, 10:19:45 AM

Hello to everyone!

It's been a long time since I last posted in the forums, but I was just reading through and saw this thread on Carlos IV and his family, one of my favourites!, so I decided to post something.

The story of this two is, indeed, shameful. However, there are several points on the'r live's that I'd like to discuss a bit. Carlos was a stupid man, but María Luisa wasn't, as it has been stated hundreds of times, a poorly educated and lascivious woman. She had received a brilliant education in her parent's court at Parma which had been supervised by her mother, Louis XV's intelligent and favourite daughter, Babette. Her main teacher was the abbot Condillac, who wrote for María Luisa and her siblings several works for them to study: a work on gramatics, on writing, on reasoning, on thinking and a universal history book.

With no offensive intention, Yseult, I don't think assuring that María Luisa and Godoy were lovers is quite correct. Or at least not historically sensible. (Please, don't take this as a personal insult!). I say this because there is no proof about this. Yes, they were very close to each other, and he controlled both the Queen and the King. But María Luisa was constantly accompanied by ladies-in-waiting and nobles and we haven't yet discovered a sole letter written between the purported lovers in which there is a single proof of their adulterous relationship. In their letters you can find kind words, even loving words, but none that would prove a sexual relationship. In fact, they adress each other as 'friend'.

About María Luisa's relationship with Godoy's central women of his life, Pepita Tudó and María Teresa de Vallábriga, although recent books like 'Los reyes infieles' by José María Solé state that María Luisa married Godoy and María Teresa in order to keep him apart from Pepita, this has been proved wrong many time ago. María Luisa had a wonderful relationship with Pepita - while María Teresa and María Luisa hated each other with all their hearts - and Pepita even received a pension from the Spanish Crown!
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on May 31, 2006, 12:13:32 PM
I'm a bit of a fan of Maria Luisa. I tend to agree with Umigon that the affair with Godoy is not proven. I wouldn't have blamed her if she had though! I think she was unlucky (like her cousins in France and elsewhere) in living through revolutionary times with a less than brilliant husband. Unlike some she didn't end up on the guillotine.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: Bernardino on June 02, 2006, 01:51:39 PM
I tend to get suspicious about the accusations of infidelity and nymphomaniac tendencies among royals...I'm not saying that they don't exist, but (to some may seem a kind of conspiracy theory) when the royal person is Catholic and from an old family...there seems to be a kind of obligatory characteristics that are common to every situation: catholicism (many times not implicitely pointed out, so not to rise suspition), close familiar inter-marriage, ambition of power, etc...

Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 03, 2006, 07:23:39 PM
Well...yes. I noticed that too, Bernardino. Now that you said it, I'm starting to doubt about Maria Luisa's nymphomaniac tendencies.

RealAnastasia
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: cimbrio on June 16, 2006, 09:32:39 AM
According to court gossip, Maria Luisa's two youngest were Manuel de Godoy's children. Indeed, many claimed there was an "indecent likeness" between the two royal children and their parents' favourite. Though this may have just been a rumour started by an interested party, you may like to know that Francisco de Paula (Carlos IV's youngest (official) son was not given back the title of Infante upon the restoration of the monarchy and according to the 1812 constitution. Many have thought this was due to Francisco's doubtful parentage, but recent publications indicate it was due to the ex-Infante's political views, which were at the time close to Napoleon's. Due to this privation, years later King Fernando VII gave his nephews (Francisco's sons) the titles of Duque de Cádiz and Duque de Sevilla. Fernando VII's daughter, Queen Isabel, continued this tradition of granting titles to her numerous cousins.
Going back to Maria Luisa, she didn't get along with her daughter-in-law, Fernando VII's first wife Maria Antonia of Naples, whom she acused of dressing inappropriately. When Maria Antonia died in 1806, Maria Luisa and Godoy were accused of having poisoned her. Fernando, who by then was still Prince of Asturias and disliked Godoy, cleared things when he wrote that people were unfairly accusing Manuel Godoy of being a murderer.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 27, 2006, 10:07:08 PM
As for Manuel Godoy habits of murdering people, legend is not very kind to him. I've read that he was accused by popular rumors of killing Maria Antonia, but also that the Queen and possibily himself have poisoned Maria del Pilar Teresa Cayetana, Duchess of Alba.

This was proven to be FALSE (forensic experts unburied her and studied her corpse thoroughly in 1945), for nobody found any poison in Duchess of Alba remains... However, nothing was said about Maria Antonia. 

Probably, these were only rumors, but it shows that people didin't like Godoy at all and believed that he could do the worst thing in the whole world.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: gogm on June 27, 2006, 10:53:24 PM
A new site has opened up in Spain at

http://pintura.aut.org/ (http://pintura.aut.org/)

It has a number of good Spanish royal portraits by Lopez and Madrazo. :)
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: Mari on April 04, 2008, 02:49:16 AM
I was looking for descriptions of Maria Luisa by contemporaries and I found some interesting comments:
 
Quote
"The Family of Charles IV" (1800). The prized treasure of the Prado, it is, alas, not in the current show.

In this enormous (11½ by 132½ inches) monument to the witless corruption of the Spanish monarchy, Goya depicted the cuckolded king and his ugly wife as beribboned, overdressed and pompous figures surrounded by 11 elegantly dressed but unappealing royal personages. The painting led French novelist Theophile Gautier to remark that the royal couple looked like "the corner baker and his wife after they won the lottery." As Velázquez had done in "Las Meninas," Goya included himself as a shadowy figure in the background laboring at his easel.
Quote
from Antiques and the Art

http://antiquesandthearts.com/CS0-04-30-2002-13-01-11
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: Katerina Stradova on January 02, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
According to Wikipedia, Queen Maria Luisa also was a rival of the famous Duchess of Alba and the Duchess of Osuna. Does anyone know why?

And speaking of the Duchess of Alba, does anyone have more information about her?
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: CountessKate on January 05, 2010, 04:28:03 AM
Quote
And speaking of the Duchess of Alba, does anyone have more information about her?

There's quite a lot of information about her as she was Goya's Duchess of Alba - María del Pilar Teresa Cayetana de Silva Alvarez de Toledo y Silva Bazán, 13th Duchess of Alba.  However, most of the information concerns her relationship with Goya rather than Maria Luisa!  She was considered eccentric and certainly Maria Luisa disliked her - this website repeats the rumours that Maria Luisa poisoned her - http://artmodel.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/goya-and-the-duchess/ although when her body was exhumed in the 20th century the consensus seems to be that she died of TB. 

María Josefa Pimentel, Duchess-Countess of Benavente, 12th Duchess of Osuna, was also painted by Goya and was a society leader in a way the Duchess of Alba wasn't - she had a literary salon as well and was extremely charitable.  The Alba and Osuna families were the wealthiest noble families in Spain, so the enmity of Maria Luisa may simply have been political - these women represented aristocratic rivals in some form.  In Spain, women were establishing themselves as leaders by mainly through patronising the arts, and thereby influencing politics through their salons and parties and good works - something Maria Luisa would have felt pretty threatened by, I imagine. 
Title: Re: Carlos IV of Spain and his family
Post by: princeasturias on August 16, 2016, 02:28:21 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/2aiC7qf.jpg)

King Carlos IV and queen Maria Luisa