Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: bookworm on September 04, 2004, 06:46:54 PM

Title: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: bookworm on September 04, 2004, 06:46:54 PM
Does anyone know how often Marie saw her son before and after the Revolution? I know she left him behind in Sweden when she returned to Russia, but I read a few times of meetings with him when he was an adult.

Going by the family tree, Lennart seems to have had a fairly interesting life, with two marriages, one to a much younger woman. He fathered children when he was in 60s and 70s with his second wife. I saw a picture of  him with one of the children of his first marriage, Marie Louise. She looks strikingly like her grandmother Marie Pavlovna.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 04, 2004, 06:49:59 PM
In 1921 she sow Lennart again. they were a little close to eachother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Lanie on September 04, 2004, 06:52:58 PM
It doesn't seem to me Maria P was very close with Lennart, either before of after the Revolution.  Apparently she was rather distant towards children in general, probably from her own upbringing without a mother and later without her father...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2004, 07:30:57 PM
There was an article on the Royalty Digest site dealing with various 'hodge-podge' clippings. This one pertained to MP:
Let us start with Marie, Grand Duchess of Russia's book A Princess In Exile, a bestseller both here and in the States around 1932. In a cutting from the Evening Standard of March 11th, 1932 we find Marie flying 3,000 miles to be with her son Prince Lennart when he married Miss Karin Nisavandt. Neither Marie nor her brother Grand Duke Dimitri, who was also in London, attended the registry office wedding or heard Lennart renounce his royal rank. "Romanoffs," she told the press, "do not recognise register office weddings." Neither she nor her brother attended the Dorchester reception either, on the grounds that they hadn't been invited. Before the happy couple left for Lake Constance as Mr. and Mrs. Bernadotte, Marie sat in her Piccadilly hotel hoping they would call, but they didn't. It will be remembered that the Grand Duchess had a short and rather stormy marriage to Prince Wilhelm of Sweden in her younger days, hence the Bernadotte. The couple did receive telegrams from both Marie and King Gustav of Sweden, Lennart's grandfather.  Marie talked to the press at some length. Her basic objection was the lack of a religious service, but there seems to have been little contact with her son and she was unaware that he was leaving that afternoon, instead of the following day. A friend explained some of the background. After the Russian Revolution, the Swedish Court had returned Marie's jewels but held onto her large dowry, upon which Lennart was living rather well while his mother worked as a dressmaker in New York. Her two books, both very popular, gave her back her independence. An ink note at the end of one chapter quotes Axel Munthe saying how intensely annoyed the Queen of Sweden was when Marie's reminiscences were serialised in a popular Swedish weekly magazine. She summoned Munthe and tried to get him to stop it. Another note quotes Rebecca West, in a review in the Sunday Telegraph of June 13th, 1974, as saying that Munthe was the lover of the Queen of Sweden. She certainly appears discreetly in the book The Story of Axel Munthe visiting him in the Mediterranean.
Another cutting in the same volume, from the Daily Mail of January 3rd, 1952, reports a luncheon in Sweden with Prince Wilhelm, his "life friend Mme. Jeanne de Tramcourt" and Prince Lennart (who seems to have dropped the 'Mr. Bernadotte' at this stage). Afterwards 67-year-old Prince Wilhelm was involved in an accident in a snowstorm in which the lady was killed. There is another note on an endpaper stating that both Marie and Dimitri were buried in a vault at Mainau in Germany belonging to her son 'Count' Bernadotte. Yet another cutting records her death in Switzerland in 1958 and that she had been estranged from Lennart for twenty years.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: pushkina on September 04, 2004, 09:01:50 PM
i remember reading her memoirs at my school when i was about 12 or so (very old school with very old and impressive library!)

i remember being SO disappointed with her; why couldnt' she just settle down and live happily ever after, like a princess should? but now, i really do understand not being able to live peacefully with some husbands!

could someone refresh my memory: why exactly did she leave vilhelm?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2004, 11:48:32 PM
Quote
i remember reading her memoirs at my school when i was about 12 or so (very old school with very old and impressive library!)

i remember being SO disappointed with her; why couldnt' she just settle down and live happily ever after, like a princess should? but now, i really do understand not being able to live peacefully with some husbands!

could someone refresh my memory: why exactly did she leave vilhelm?


I think there were a variety of reasons:
1) she didn't love him or even want the marriage in the first place
2) rumors of his sexual preferences
3) wanted to be in Russia rather than Sweden
4) didn't fit in with the Swedish royal family (save for her father-in-law & sister-in-law) or connect with the public
5) incredible incompatability with her husband which precluded trying to work around issues 1 & 2 despite their son
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2004, 11:52:40 PM
Quote
Marie in "motherly" mode with baby Lennart:
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs10/lennartwisborg1909-15.jpg)


I have that card and others taken in the same sitting and general period. It always struck me as sad that that was basically all Lennart would have of his mother most of his life--those relatively few photos taken of his family within such a short period of time. I was also struck in many of the poses how ill-at-ease Marie seems with him--she's either holding him rather far away, or looking at him on the couch/bassinet or William's holding him or another relative. There's very little of the intimacy you see with N&A and OTMAA or her Swedish relatives or Greek relatives. I think it shows in a way how ill-equipped MP was to be a mother, or if she ever really felt 'maternal' at all not having much in ways of examples. It's too bad that her grandmother Queen Olga couldn't have raised her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Lisa on September 05, 2004, 11:19:12 AM
Maria Pavlovna, Lennart, Olga of Greece, Alexandra Yossifovna:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/File0042.jpg)

in 1925:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/1925filslennartbernadotte.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Martyn on September 06, 2004, 01:06:53 PM
I have to agree Grandduchessella.  I think that MP's emotional scars were deep and acquired at an early age.  That marriage was really doomed form the start as I think that I am right in saying that she felt as though she had no option but to marry Willem beacuse ella wished her to be out from under her feet.
As ever we have to rely on MP' version of events, so we need to be judicious about how much we accept at face value.
It is sad that she ended her life estranged form her son - didn't she have another child that she was also estranged from (by her second marriage)?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on September 06, 2004, 02:37:16 PM
She had a son Roman (?) by Prince Putiatin. When she fled Russia she left the infant behind with her in-laws where he soon died. I don't know where he might be buried or anything else really about him.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on September 06, 2004, 02:51:47 PM
I finally found the picture. Here's MP and DP's gravesites on Mainau. Apparently her personal effects (photos, china, etc...) are also kept at Mainau.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/IMAG0004.gif)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on October 17, 2004, 04:42:34 PM
Does anyone have pics of Marie with her second husband Serge Putiatin?
Angie
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 17, 2004, 04:51:15 PM
Marie's son by Putiatin is probably buried in Romania - he died there when he was very young. I am doubtful that there are photos of Marie and Serge P - they were married during the Revolution and were not well to do throughout their marriage. But, if anyone has one, it would be delightful to see it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 26, 2004, 04:05:29 PM
I'm not sure if Marie loved her son,.but in this pic she looks happy to me.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Romanovs/princessmarieandhersonlennart.jpg)

and this is my favorite picture of Lennart as a child.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Romanovs/princelennartofsweden.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on November 26, 2004, 04:43:31 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/MariaPovlovnasSonPrinceLennart.jpg)
I think he looks adorable in this one
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Michelle on November 26, 2004, 06:17:06 PM
Quote
Marie in "motherly" mode with baby Lennart:
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs10/lennartwisborg1909-15.jpg)



Does anybody else here think that Maria Pavlovna in this picture looks remarkably like Drew Barrymore?  :o Wow!!!! :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 26, 2004, 06:45:12 PM
Wow,.i never notice that she does :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Labuanbajo on December 08, 2004, 05:47:33 AM
I found this newspaper clipping in the copy of "Education of a Princess" that I bought in a second-hand store. There's no date visible.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Larantuka/PrinzLennart.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 08, 2004, 06:45:38 AM
Lennart and Carin were married in 1932.

Thanks for the picture!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Anya on December 08, 2004, 09:15:16 AM
And divorced in 1972, didn't they?
He married again and had  five children with his second wife Sonia Hauntz (or something like that). His youngest granddaughter was born on February this year.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 08, 2004, 04:01:03 PM
Lennart's youngest daughter (and child) by his 2nd wife [ whos younger then Lennart's children from his first marriage, eww!]

Anyway, Lennart's youngest daughter  is Countess Diana ( who is now 22 years old) had a daughter in Feb. her name is Paulina Maria Grave. { yes, really " Grave " is the baby's last name.]
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Jim1026 on December 21, 2004, 06:31:39 PM
I  have a question about Maria and her brother Dimitri.
When they died were they cremated?  Also do you think
Lennart will be buried on Mainau?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 24, 2004, 01:40:21 AM
Mother and son in Buenos-Aires.Lennart visited Maria Pavlovna in Argentina

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/marieson.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rlbumich on December 24, 2004, 08:52:59 AM
Quote
I  have a question about Maria and her brother Dimitri.
When they died were they cremated?  Also do you think
Lennart will be buried on Mainau?


I gather that Pr. Lennart is still alive? Also, are there any pics of him as a older man?  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 24, 2004, 03:49:37 PM
I know many people are busy for the next few of days or weeks, but can anyone help me found bigger pictures of MP and her son. Thank you.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/untitled.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/aa.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Jim1026 on December 25, 2004, 02:36:57 PM
Quote
I finally found the picture. Here's MP and DP's gravesites on Mainau. Apparently her personal effects (photos, china, etc...) are also kept at Mainau.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/IMAG0004.gif)


From the look of their gravesite I assume (dangerous word) that Dimitri and Maria were cremated.  Is that a
correct assumption ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Belochka on December 25, 2004, 07:37:01 PM
Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna and her brother Dmitri were buried in the same crypt in Schloss Mainau. What you are seeing in the photograph are name plaques only.

The Orthodox faith does not permit cremation.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Belochka on December 25, 2004, 07:59:36 PM
Quote
Mother and son in Buenos-Aires.Lennart visited Maria Pavlovna in Argentina

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/marieson.jpg)


According to Flight of the Romanovs by Perry and Pleshakov @ p 339-40:

... Marie Pavlovna saw her son in Buenos Aires in 1947, when Prince Lennart travelled there on business. According to the authors it was the first time they had an adult conversation, where she apparently confessed her personal loneliness and not having a real 'home'.

In later years she found difficulty relating to her grandchildren. Her only true affections were always for her brother Dmitri.

She died a sad and lonely woman, never able to relate to anyone else, despite her considerable artistic talents.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Martyn on December 27, 2004, 05:39:13 AM
Quote
She died a very sad and lonely woman,never able to relate to anyone else, despite her considerable artistic talents


That really (and sadly) sums up a complex woman who had a tough life.  I have to agree with Belochka in her assertion that the only person that truly meant something to her was Dmitri.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Martyn on December 27, 2004, 05:33:57 PM
That is a very charming photo.  Good job it is labelled 'Prince Lennart' - rather hard to tell whether it is a little boy or girl otherwise....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: otmafan on December 27, 2004, 05:35:41 PM
That's true. If it hadn't said who it was, I wouldn't have known. Anyone think he looks a little like Maria Pavlova or other Romanovs?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Martyn on December 28, 2004, 03:57:46 AM
Quote
That's true. If it hadn't said who it was, I wouldn't have known. Anyone think he looks a little like Maria Pavlova or other Romanovs?


Hmm, I think you may be right.  I can certainly see a bit of MP in that photo of the infant Lennart; this photo is very similar to the ones of Alexei as an infant.  It would seem that in 1910 (which I think is roughly the date of this photo), parents were still dressing infant boys like girls....................
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2004, 06:27:12 PM
I'm sorry to hear he died, but I didn't know he was still alive. He had a good long life. Thanks for all the pics and info.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Labuanbajo on January 09, 2005, 09:25:41 AM
The New York Times published a belated obituary of Lennart today with a photo.

Count Lennart Bernadotte, who gave up his royal Swedish title to marry a commoner but gained an Edenic island that he built into a tourist attraction, died on Dec. 21 on Mainau, the island he had gardened in Lake Constance, Germany, for over half a century. He was 95. The death was announced by the foundation he formed to administer the 96-acre island, which had been in and out of the possession of the Swedish crown since the end of the Thirty Years' War in the 17th century. The island's palmy climate - rare for Europe north of the Alps - inspired its owners in the mid-1800's to cultivate rare plants and start an arboretum, an Italian rose garden and an orangery. Grand Duke Friedrich I of Baden, grandfather of Lennart Bernadotte, added exotic flowers and trees. The park today attracts more than a million visitors each year. Born Gustaf Lennart Nicolaus Paul in Stockholm on May 8, 1909, he was the only child of Prince Wilhelm of Sweden and Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna of Russia. After his parents' divorce, his uncle and aunt, King Gustaf V and Queen Victoria of Sweden, took over his upbringing. His family entrusted its property on Mainau, an island in Lake Constance, to his care in 1932. The 208-square-mile lake, which is also known as Bodensee, is fed and drained by the Rhine and borders on Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The count had already studied horticulture and later pursued ecology, filmmaking and photography. Most of the picture postcards on Mainau came from his camera. In 1932, he also married over his parents' objections Karin Nissvandt, an industrialist's daughter. They had four children before divorcing in 1970; she died in 1991. He spent World War II in Sweden, then returned to Mainau and transformed the island into a tourist destination. In 1951 he was given the title Count of Wisborg from the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. In 1972 he married his assistant, Sonja Haunz, with whom he had five more children. He withdrew from daily operations of the island in the 1980's. The couple entrusted the island and everything on it to the Lennart Bernadotte Foundation, which they formed in 1974. His wife, who helped make the garden a prosperous enterprise, was named co-manager in 1982. Other survivors are two daughters, Birgitta and Cecilia, and a son, Jan, from his first marriage; and Bettina, Bjorn Wilhelm, Catharina, Christian Wolfgang and Diana, from his second marriage, according to the Bernadotte Foundation.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Larantuka/09bernadotte184.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on January 09, 2005, 11:22:09 AM
Quote
Grand Duke Friedrich I of Baden, grandfather of Lennart Bernadotte, added exotic flowers and trees. ...After his parents' divorce, his uncle and aunt, King Gustaf V and Queen Victoria of Sweden, took over his upbringing.


Wasn't Friedrich actually his great-grandfather? And Gustav and Victoria his grandparents?

Friedrich & Louise (sister of Kaiser Friedrich III)--Victoria--Wilhelm--Lennart
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 09, 2005, 12:08:02 PM
I believe so, GDE. Lennart would have been a great grandson to the Grand Duke of Baden who fathered his grandmother, Princess Victoria of Baden who later was  Queen Victoria of Sweden. The later was the grandmother (not the aunt as the obit says) who raised Lennart after Maria P left Sweden with her divorce to return to Russia. Victoria of Sweden died around 1930 after which the Isle of Mainau became the property of her son Wilhelm. The latter hired son Lennart to manage the property for him. From there, in the info in the obit seems correct.

As to all of the comments about what kind of mother MP was, it seems to me that long separations typified hers and Lennart's relationship. She was visiting him at Mainau when she died, so I think it's a mistake to call them estranged. Circumstances dictated many of their separations, and she made sure he was taken care of.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Labuanbajo on January 13, 2005, 07:46:48 PM
I sent an e-mail to the NY Times to point out the errors. That newspaper is obsessive about printing corrections!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 11, 2005, 09:01:42 AM
Hi everyone,. I'm writing a book about the GD Maria Pavlovna  the younger..My other two books The young hearts: The last Tsar's childen and Elisabeth:The forgotten German Princess are still in progress...

so any pics and Facts about Marie,..that would be great!!!

Thank you!! :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olga on February 11, 2005, 10:14:44 AM
Maria Pavlovna, Grand Duchess of Russia.

6 April 1890, Sankt Peterburg.
13 December 1958, Schloss Mainau near Konstanz.

Parents
Pavel Alexandrovich, Grand Duke of Russia ( 1860-1919)
Alexandra Georgievna of Greece, Grand Duchess. (1870-1891)

Marriages
Children
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: kmerov on February 11, 2005, 11:27:51 AM
In Sweden she was an HIH, which wasnt very popular within the swedish royal family.
Some people say she was selfish and could be unpleasant, but i dont know that much about her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Annushka on February 11, 2005, 11:55:43 AM
I am reading the first volume of her autobiography, "Education of a Princess" right now.  She seems nice and is very caring about the patients that she nursed during the war.  But there has been almost no mention of the son she left in Sweden.  A puzzling woman.  I will be looking for the 2nd volume soon.  I am interested in finding out how she lived after she escaped from Russia.

Holly
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 11, 2005, 01:27:22 PM
I agree, puzzling woman and Grand Duchess. My opinion she was a fighter...for life of her own.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alicky1872 on February 11, 2005, 04:46:57 PM
Quote
Hi everyone,. I'm writing a book about the GD Maria Pavlovna  the younger..My other two books The young hearts: The last Tsar's childen and Elisabeth:The forgotten German Princess are still in progress...

so any pics and Facts about Marie,..that would be great!!!

Thank you!! :)


How exciting, Mandie! I wish you the best of luck with your writing! Are they going to be picture books, or more like bios?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: felix on February 11, 2005, 05:01:04 PM
Mandie, there are wonderful  stories about her and her father-in-law. He loved her.  The  people of Sweden were very happy when she wore their colors , reaching Stockholm.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on February 12, 2005, 07:50:50 AM
Quote
Maria Pavlovna, Grand Duchess of Russia.

6 April 1890,  Sankt-Peterburg
13 December 1958,  Schloss Mainau near Konstanz

Parents
Paul Alexandrovich, Grand Duke of Russia ( 1860-1919)
Alexandra Georgievna of Greece (1870-1891)

Marriages
    Vilhelm of Sweden, Duke of Södermanland
    Married: 3 May 1908, Sankt-Peterburg
    Divorced: 1914
    Sergei Mihailovich, Prince Putyatin
    Married: 19 September 1917, Pavlovsk
    Divorced: 1924
Children
    1st Marriage: Lennart Gustaf Nicholas, Count of Wisborg (1909-2005)
    2nd Marriage: Roman Sergeevich, Prince Putyatin (1918-1919)


Darth Olga: Excellent writeup - one minor mistake.  Prince Lennart passed away in December 2004 not 2005.

Do you know where Marie's 2nd son Prince Putyatin Sergeevich was born and died?  And was there anything in particular the baby died of?  I remember reading somewhere that the baby was with his grandmother (father's mother) on the run from the bolsheviks - which is reason enough for a baby to die I guess...

thanks so much.

dca
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 14, 2005, 07:55:48 PM
Quote

How exciting, Mandie! I wish you the best of luck with your writing! Are they going to be picture books, or more like bios?


A picture book :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 14, 2005, 08:31:11 PM
Quote
In Sweden she was an HIH, which wasnt very popular within the swedish royal family.
Some people say she was selfish and could be unpleasant, but i dont know that much about her.


It was said that she compared unfavorably with her sister-in-law 'Daisy' Connaught and this didn't help her. She seemed to like many of her in-laws and have a good relationship with Gustav V (I think he settled an allowance on her even though she since wanted the divorce they could've paid nothing).

She apparently thought that she would have a much freer life than she enjoyed under Ella's guardianship when she married and was bitterly disappointed to find that it didn't work that way. The court could be very rigid and at the same time lacking in the glamour of St Petersburg society. This influenced a lot of her recollections about her marriage later on--she seemed more amenable to it than usually assumed.

If you need any images, let me know as I have a pretty fair number of her (alone and with Wilhelm and/or Lennart). Not her childhood really or her later life but that in-between period. I'd be glad to lend them to you.  :)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 15, 2005, 07:48:52 PM
Thanks for the facts ;D ;D,..but doesn't anyone have pictures? Pretty please post them..

THANK YOU!! :)

P.S I'm sure that I would give thanks to thos how help me with my books......

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 17, 2005, 05:51:51 AM
One of my favourite pics of Maria Pavlovna

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/PrincessMaria.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 17, 2005, 05:54:07 AM
Quote

Darth Olga: Excellent writeup - one minor mistake.  Prince Lennart passed away in December 2004 not 2005.

Do you know where Marie's 2nd son Prince Putyatin Sergeevich was born and died?  And was there anything in particular the baby died of?  I remember reading somewhere that the baby was with his grandmother (father's mother) on the run from the bolsheviks - which is reason enough for a baby to die I guess...

thanks so much.

dca


Her 2d son Roman was born in Russia. He died in Roumania becouse of typhoid.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 17, 2005, 07:38:27 AM
BTW, a sad fact about Maria Pavlovna.It came out of S.Scott's book "The Romanovs".The author considers that Maria was abused by Axel Munte while being on Capri.Scott refers to her lady-in-waiting's statement  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on February 17, 2005, 09:13:46 AM
By the way, Grant Menzies wrote a wonderful bio of her for us some years ago.  Her close friend, Countess de Bruniere, mentioned in the piece, was my own "Tante Lili" who mentioned her to me often, and had many books and other possessions which had been GD Maria Pavlovna's.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/mariepavlovna.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2005, 09:28:41 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/2166371060.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/2163001436.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/4035.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3788.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3432.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3431.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3670.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/4348.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2005, 09:29:11 AM
with William of Sweden
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3607893181.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/2167980996.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/0627.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/3607893287.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/2168508519.jpg)

with Lennart
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/2167981161.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Arleen on February 17, 2005, 01:21:56 PM
All of these pictures are so wonderful!!  My favorite is the one of Maria Pavlovna, Jr. with her dog....she must have loved it very much to have a formal picture like that made.  So therefore I love the picture of Maria and William with the same dog.  I am just a dog LOVER!!  But thank you Grandduchesslla and Svetabel.
....and ROB I would love to know a lot more about your tante Lili!! Tell ALL please.              ..Arleen
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kostya on February 17, 2005, 02:32:27 PM
Great Pictures of Marie Pavlova and her family and especially with the ones of her father and mother.

Are there pictures of her and her brother in later years?  how was her relationship with Dimitri? how was her relationship with her father after his second marriage?  Are there pictures of her and the imperial family or with the girls OTMA or Alexei?  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 18, 2005, 05:04:08 AM
Maria Pavlovna in 1953 in Paris with GD Andrey Vladimirovitch and Mathilda Kshessinskaya

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MatAndrMaria1953.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sarai on February 21, 2005, 12:52:08 PM
I would like to see more photos of her as a little girl. I know there are a couple of nice ones in the book The Camera and the Tsars but I would like to see more, as they are rare to me.

From her photographs, she strikes me as such a sweet and nice young woman, usually smiling in such a friendly fashion. I am reading Education of a Princess for the first time and in it she also seems so lively and possessing a great sense of humor, enjoying practical jokes, etc. This is quite in contrast to the portrait of her in Argentina, when she was portrayed by the little girl who lived with her as such an arrogant and cold woman. Of course, the bitterness of the years probably hardened her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 22, 2005, 11:46:29 AM
Hi, I just wanna tell you guys that I pick a title for the book :The Passion of a Royal Lady: The story of Grand Duchess Marie. :)

what do you think??
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 27, 2005, 04:54:28 PM
Quote
Hi, I just wanna tell you guys that I pick a title for the book :The Passion of a Royal Lady: The story of Grand Duchess Marie. :)

what do you think??


OR The Passion of a Royal Princess?

I would like all you of your opinions please!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: kmerov on February 27, 2005, 05:00:05 PM
Maybe it could be  The Passion of an Imperial Princess, ect.
But its your book :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alicky1872 on March 12, 2005, 04:23:56 PM
The new issue of Royalty magazine came out recently, with an interesting article about Maria's son Lennart. He passed away on December 21, 2004, aged 95. They reprinted an interview with him, from 1992. I found some interesting facts about Maria's feelings towards motherhood and children in general.

When asked if he saw much of his mother, Lennart replied,
"No, not very much. We met several times in the 1920's and she came to Mainau a couple of times in the 1930's and 1940's. She died here in Constance. It was a great problem with my mother, she hated little children. She only began to estimate a child when they were, say, fourteen or fifteen. When she used to visit, our children would hide away."

When asked if she had a strong personality,
"Yes, very strong. We were not such good friends and I was the only child. She abandoned the family so to speak, in 1913, and my parents were divorced in 1914."

"The Swedish court was very severe and my grandmother Queen Victoria (of Sweden) a very Prussian woman, although my grandfather was much more easy going. And Maria--she did not like to be called mother--felt freer when she came to Sweden than in Russia. Rather too free, and it was not approved of."


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sarai on March 13, 2005, 01:48:54 PM
I have always found Marie's attitude towards children interesting. From reading her memoirs, she seemed like such a friendly woman and could be a good friend, and yet with children she could be so cold. In her own book, she writes: "I have never known how to treat children; I remember all too clearly my own childhood; and all those things which in the conduct of grown persons used to surprise and hurt me seem now curiously transferred to my own relations with children." She did at least acknowledge the fact that she had a strained relationship with children.

I think she must have been quite traumatized during her childhood, for she did not receive very much affection at all, except from her father and brother (not surprisingly, she herself admitted that these were the only two people in her life that she ever truly loved). And then her father was taken away when she was small and she lived with Ella and Serge, who were hardly affectionate. We all know about Marie's cold relationship with Ella, and whenever she tried to reach out and be affectionate, she was shot down. And although Serge was said to deeply love the kids, he probably didn't express his emotions very much and he demanded from them always the utmost respect and perfect manners. So I couldn't imagine them playing around with him and having fun. It was always a rather cold and distant relationship with these parental figures, and thus it was with her own relations with children when she was an adult.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olga on March 13, 2005, 07:02:09 PM
Can someone post about the strained relationship between Maria Pavlovna and Yelizaveta Fyodorovna?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2005, 09:14:55 PM
It's gone into in a few threads here--does anyone remember which ones?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2005, 10:40:13 PM
It seems that parenting woes continued on through Lennart. A Swedish magazine reported on a family rift, apparently 2 of Lennart's eldest children (by his 1st marriage) Jan and Cecila (both in their 60s) weren't invited to his funeral. In addition they were excluded from the death notice (their elder sister WAS mentioned as well as Lenart's 5 children by his 2nd marriage).

Apparently there'd been bad blood for a long time due to the fact that Lennart has left his 1st wife for his 2nd (a MUCH younger woman) and the fact that Jan was quite the profligate and ran through money inherited from his grandfather Wilhelm of Sweden and generally caused embarrassment to the family through his own actions and those he associated with (including a young man he adopted in the 1960s who calls himself a Prince of Sweden ala Marie of Anhalt and 'Prince' Frederick aka Mr Zsa-Zsa Gabor). Jan may be planning on writing a book about his life/family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2005, 10:06:26 AM
Quote
It seems that parenting woes continued on through Lennart. A Swedish magazine reported on a family rift, apparently 2 of Lennart's eldest children (by his 1st marriage) Jan and Cecila (both in their 60s) weren't invited to his funeral. In addition they were excluded from the death notice (their elder sister WAS mentioned as well as Lenart's 5 children by his 2nd marriage).

Apparently there'd been bad blood for a long time due to the fact that Lennart has left his 1st wife for his 2nd (a MUCH younger woman) and the fact that Jan was quite the profligate and ran through money inherited from his grandfather Wilhelm of Sweden and generally caused embarrassment to the family through his own actions and those he associated with (including a young man he adopted in the 1960s who calls himself a Prince of Sweden ala Marie of Anhalt and 'Prince' Frederick aka Mr Zsa-Zsa Gabor). Jan may be planning on writing a book about his life/family.
 


Jan is on his 6th or 7th wife,  Christiane Grandmontagne, who in the 60s, had a child out of wedlock with Prince Christian Sigismund of Prussia.  Jan and Cia, I think, cannot go to Germany for legal reasons (warrants for their arrests for legal problems)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2005, 10:09:15 AM
Quote

Jan is on his 6th or 7th wife,  Christiane Grandmontagne, who in the 60s, had a child out of wedlock with Prince Christian Sigismund of Prussia.  Jan and Cia, I think, cannot go to Germany for legal reasons (warrants for their arrests for legal problems)


Yikes.  :-/  Is Prince CS descended from Henry & Irene?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2005, 10:38:17 AM
Quote

Yikes.  :-/  Is Prince CS descended from Henry & Irene?


No.  Christian Sigismund is the 4th son of the late Prince Louis Ferdinand and Grand Duchess Kira of Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2005, 10:31:02 PM
saw a great picture that Mia posted on another forum and I thought I'd share it here as I hadn't seen it before


Does anyone know if any of these jewels are Ella's? She gave a good amount, including her emeralds, to Marie. If not, does anyone know the provenance or where they are now?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on May 22, 2005, 03:37:57 AM
Quote

Does anyone know if any of these jewels are Ella's? She gave a good amount, including her emeralds, to Marie. If not, does anyone know the provenance or where they are now?


I guess Maria dresses in Swedish court dress in the picture. May be those jewels are of a Swedish origin? Possibly they belonged to her mother GD Alexandra
???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Lisa on May 22, 2005, 04:15:16 AM
I can't remember if I already posted it, but here is Maria with Ella's jewels in 1914:
                                (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1914.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on May 22, 2005, 11:15:44 AM
Quote

I guess Maria dresses in Swedish court dress in the picture. May be those jewels are of a Swedish origin? Possibly they belonged to her mother GD Alexandra
 ???


The picture peaked my interest so I'd love to find out. I wonder if Maria faced the problem her aunt Marie Coburg faced when she married Alfred? Marie's jewels were quiet the object of envy in Britain back then and I wonder about MP's in Sweden. Sweden has a great deal of fabulous jewelry but with Queen Victoria & Crown Princess Margaret ahead of her I imagine she didn't get that large a share of the Swedish ones.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: lexi4 on May 22, 2005, 03:02:17 PM
I love that title. I have colorized some photgraphs of her if you are interested.
When will your other books be published?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 22, 2005, 08:38:51 PM
Which title?

That would be very sweet of you. sure if you like. I haven't be writing on either books, becuase of  "School"work . maybe by next year a book would be published. the one of Elisabeth i have giving up on, i don';t know much about her. the one on OTMAA i know by heart, but  still waiting what what to start with.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mia on May 23, 2005, 01:31:11 AM
Quote
saw a great picture that Mia posted on another forum and I thought I'd share it here as I hadn't seen it before

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/romanovs/GDMariaPavlovnaYounger1.jpg)

Does anyone know if any of these jewels are Ella's? She gave a good amount, including her emeralds, to Marie. If not, does anyone know the provenance or where they are now?


I would assume that almost all, if not all, the jewels are from Russia. The short "curb link necklace" is definitely from Ella, but I don't know about the rest.

The tiara looks quite "new" in design with the wreath motifs. Could it have been made around 1880-1900. But the HUGE bow brooch on the front is perhaps a bit older.

I don't know about envy in the Swedish court but there is this anecdote of the stern Q Victoria who was just before the beginning of a ball sending a message to her daughter-in-law (in one version it is Margaret Connaught in other Maria Pavlovna telling not to wear too much jewellery ("att inte hänga på sig så mycket smycken").

The princess's answer was: tell that ******** that she should be glad to have half of the amount of jewels I have". The answer wasn't forwarded...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on May 23, 2005, 09:32:18 AM
I imagine that was probably directed at Queen Victoria of Sweden. I think Margaret was one of the few she actually got along with there--but then who didn't?

That's true about the link necklace--I can't believe I didn't spot that.


I would love to see more photos of Ella in her jewels since she apparently had such a great collection. Yet, in many photos she's dressed pretty simply. I still haven't seen her in the aquamarine tiara she gave to Ernie.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: TampaBay on May 27, 2005, 01:27:18 PM
If and when they make a movie of her life Drew Barrymore must play Maria Pavlovna.  I cannot get over the resemblance.  The picture of the young Alice, Princess Andrew of Greece also reminds me of Drew Barrymore.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on May 27, 2005, 07:12:25 PM
Quote
saw a great picture that Mia posted on another forum and I thought I'd share it here as I hadn't seen it before


ella (and Mia) this picture is lovely. Where did you find it ella? If you can remember, what forum? I really love it. She looked lovely at this age, I think.

I agree Drew Barrymore would be a great choice to play her in a movie.  :D.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on May 28, 2005, 12:32:44 AM
I think it was the Glittering Royal Events forum
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on June 04, 2005, 06:01:11 PM
I am currenly reading "A Romanov Diary" by Grand Duchess George. She was the sister of Grand Duchess Paul. What struck me was her description of Marie. She describes her niece as being "full of life & very jolly, but inclined to to be self-willed, selfish, & rather difficult to deal with." After Serge was killed, I wondered why they didn't spend more time with their mother's sister. From what I read, Grand Duchess George thought highly of Ella but from the sounds of it she saw Marie & Dmitri occasionally, not all that close to them. So how could she know what Marie felt from being brought up by Ella, whom she describes as not very maternal towards her? Wasn't Marie & Dmitri's great-grandmother still alive also? I never read about them seeing her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mia on June 05, 2005, 07:46:39 AM
Oh, PrinceEddy1864, sorry for not answering earlier to your question about the origin of the picture showing Marie in Swedish court dress.

The photo is from a Swedish book about royal fashion. I can't recall from which book it was. The photo was from the Royal Armoury Museum collection. And I still regret that I scanned only half of the cdv photo.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on June 10, 2005, 09:06:01 PM
I have a question about Marie Pavlovna Jr. Nicholas made the decision about Serge raising Marie & her brother after their father made a morgantic marriage, of which he disapproved. But why after Serge was murdered was Ella given permission to raise his children & make decisions regarding Marie's marriage? Their aunt (their sister's mother) had married into the Imperial family, their grandmother (Queen Olga of Greece) was a Grand Duchess from the Russian Imperial Family, and their great-grandmother was still alive (also having married into the Imperial family). Were they consulted regarding the children's upbringing? Grand Duchess George (their aunt) seemed to admire Ella, but then again she did not live in a close capacity as Marie Jr. did.  It wasn't like  they had no other close relatives. I wonder if their opinions were asked for?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on June 10, 2005, 09:52:11 PM
Didn't they technically become wards of Nicholas and Alexandra after that? I thought they just continued to live with Ella so their life wouldn't suffer any more disruption but that ultimately decisions were in the hands of Nicholas as head of the family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: lexi4 on June 10, 2005, 10:01:48 PM
That is what I thought too. I thought Ella just saw to their daily needs and cared for them. What does "given permission" mean exactly? Is it a document or like an adoption? Just curious.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on June 11, 2005, 11:01:37 AM
Quote
That is what I thought too. I thought Ella just saw to their daily needs and cared for them. What does "given permission" mean exactly? Is it a document or like an adoption? Just curious.

Maybe given permission is the wrong phrase.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: hikaru on June 12, 2005, 10:59:28 AM
Under the will of the GD Sergey , the 2 children should inherite all his property exclude the jewelery which he gave to Ella.
I think that this is the main reason why they stayed with Ella.
As for Maria Pavlovna, I have just saw a number of wonderful documentary films about the White Army made by Mikhalokov.
In the film dedicated to Wrangel ( his daughter is still living in the State New York) there was intresting cuts with Maria Pavlovna making dalls ( when she was in Paris). Did somebody see it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 17, 2005, 03:35:39 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/romanovfile.jpg)

G D Ella, GD Marie, P Christopher of Greece, GD Dmitri and Victoria of Battenburg with others 1904-5.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Finelly on June 18, 2005, 12:07:34 AM
I just read this entire section.  Although the title "Passion of a Princess" sounds nice, it doesn't really apply to Marie.  She was not a particularly passionate person and not passionate about much in her life.  She divorced two or three times.  She had difficulties maintaining nurturing relationships.  She spent her life after the Revolution searching for meaning and something to do, not really succeeding.
I happen to like her a lot, and have read the two memoirs she wrote, as well as other information from Sweden about her.  The only wild time in her life came when she married William and lived in Sweden - apparently she was quite fun-loving and flamboyant.  This was probably the only time in her life when she had the financial freedom AND the lack of restraints from superiors/elder relatives to explore that side of herself.
She was EXTREMELY close to her brother Dmitri.  Some claimed that it was "too close", but I don't think there's any evidence of that at all.  Very simply, they were raised together in a very isolated household without a lot of warmth and suffered a lot during their lives.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: hikaru on June 18, 2005, 11:49:11 AM
I do not think that she was not successful.
Her fashion house "Kitmir" was quite a famouse one . She made a lot of work for Chanel.  
SHe just tried to be not a  Romanov. She wanted to be contemporaine and idependent. She worked a lot .
I  think that Alexandr Mikhaylovich ( husband of Xenia) thought  in the same way as her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 18, 2005, 02:19:34 PM
Quote
I just read this entire section.  Although the title "Passion of a Princess" sounds nice, it doesn't really apply to Marie.  She was not a particularly passionate person and not passionate about much in her life.  She divorced two or three times.  She had difficulties maintaining nurturing relationships.  She spent her life after the Revolution searching for meaning and something to do, not really succeeding.
I happen to like her a lot, and have read the two memoirs she wrote, as well as other information from Sweden about her.  The only wild time in her life came when she married William and lived in Sweden - apparently she was quite fun-loving and flamboyant.  This was probably the only time in her life when she had the financial freedom AND the lack of restraints from superiors/elder relatives to explore that side of herself.
She was EXTREMELY close to her brother Dmitri.  Some claimed that it was "too close", but I don't think there's any evidence of that at all.  Very simply, they were raised together in a very isolated household without a lot of warmth and suffered a lot during their lives.



What should be the title then, dear Finelly ?   :) :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Finelly on June 18, 2005, 04:08:23 PM
Now, see, that's unfair.  It's SO much easier to criticize than to offer an alternative..........oh, the burdens I bear!

Let's see.....

1.  The journeys of a Princess
2.  Princess without a Palace
3.  The great adventures of grand duchess Marie
4.  The Perils of a Princess
5.  Princess without a country
6.  More than a Princess:  The life of Grand Duchess Marie

Any of those work?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 18, 2005, 04:17:07 PM
Quote
6.  More than a Princess:  The life of Grand Duchess Marie



I like that one. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: crazy_wing on July 17, 2005, 05:34:27 AM
(http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/YBCPH3/97-013264.jpg)

Portrait of Marie Pavlovna, Dmitri's sister by Bernhard Osterman.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 17, 2005, 08:18:54 PM
I'm really glad to find all the pictures of Marie here.

I'm reading Education of a Princess, which I found 3 days ago in a used book shop (6 dollars--and in great shape)!

Poor Marie, I really feel sorry for her and Dmitri.

Some thoughts on Marie:

She seems very cynical, but who wouldn't be in her situation.

She kept all of her feelings inside, as she was trained to do, and never had a say in anything.

She was badly damaged emotionally from the childhood tragedies she endured.

As some people have mentioned, she does come across as overly familiar with her brother, but I think that is only because he is all she had growing up.

She and Ella were as opposite as two people can possibly be.

I know this is an old thread, but I'm enjoying the book and just wanted to post my thoughts here about it.  Now I'll have to look for the second part.  What is it called?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on July 17, 2005, 09:13:36 PM
They are interesting books though I wound up not liking her much.  :)

The 2nd part is called Princess in Exile.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 17, 2005, 11:17:29 PM
I know what you mean, Grandduchessella, I think she could have handled things differently in her life, for the better.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 09:13:39 PM
I don't think Dmitri is the only person she truely loved.  I think she loved him the most, but she adored her father and her half-brother Vladimir Paley.  I even think she loved Ella in a way.  I wonder how Ella felt towards MP.  It seems like she would have been happy to have two children to raise since she lacked any of her own.  I don't think Ella really pushed Marie to marry Wilhelm, but if she did Marie made her own choice to comply with Ella's wishes.  I don't believe Ella was trying to get rid of Marie, she probably thought Wilhelm was a nice guy. Maybe Ella felt a bit resentful of the children since Sergei loved them so much.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: russianlover76 on August 24, 2005, 09:25:25 PM
I was wondering where did Grandduchess Maria Pavlovna die and where did she get buried
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on August 25, 2005, 05:53:16 PM
She is buried on the island on Mainau which was the personal property of her son Lennart. Someone on here I'd posted a picture of her grave but can't find it. Perhaps someone else knows. Dmitri is buried next to her. Actually, maybe ashes--weren't they cremated?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 26, 2005, 09:34:55 PM
I've read Marie's memoirs, and I really like her.  She makes mistakes just like all the other royals.  She was so creative and brave to take up embroidery as a business.  I think her actions are overly-criticized, as well as the "spoiled" business.  I don't think she behaves like a spoiled child at all, but a love-starved one.  Her mother died so young and then her father abandoned her, such a cruel thing to do!  But she forgives him and lets him back into her heart, as well as her half-brother and sisters and her stepmother.  No wonder she complaines as all of us do at times, she has a lot to complain about.  But to me she comes out positive, a beautiful grand duchess who keeps trying to improve herself in harrowing situations. I also like how she admits to her own limitations and mistakes.  She fails to recognize some of them, but she also fails to recognize some of her good qualities.  Oh, and I admire how she finds her brother a wife and never expresses any ill will towards sharing the person she loves most.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: russianlover76 on August 30, 2005, 07:24:37 PM
Is there a family pic of marie, and her little family with her son Lennart,and her husband? :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: etonexile on August 31, 2005, 09:51:54 AM
Warm and cuddly isn't generally the upper-class parent/child habit....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 31, 2005, 10:03:36 AM
There are photos of the three together...some scattered around the forum.  They're not snuggly, really, probably given the distance between husband & wife.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 01, 2005, 10:39:44 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/6d41fecb.jpg)

Marie Pavlovna with her 1st Husband and child.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 01, 2005, 11:49:25 PM
This Maria Pavlovna is a very pretty woman. Even in old age she look pretty.  
It will be an interesting book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 06, 2005, 10:34:51 PM
Does anyone know where the name "Lennart" came from?  I've never seen it in the Russian or Swedish Royal Families, or for that matter, I've never seen it anywhere.  Although it does sound alot like "Leonard".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Speedycat on September 11, 2005, 03:52:30 PM
Marie with her grandfather, King George of Greece.

(http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/6479/mariepavlovnaandkinggeorgeofgr.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 11, 2005, 07:24:20 PM
Cool pic Kitty! :) :D

Was Maria, George's oldest grand daughter?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: russianlover76 on September 17, 2005, 09:31:21 AM
Is there any pictures of Ella and Maria PavlovnaJr. On Maria's wedding day? ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 18, 2005, 09:12:15 AM
Quote
Was Maria, George's oldest grand daughter?


Yes, she was his oldest granddaughter, and she may have been his oldest grandchild.  

She was born in 1890, although I can't find her exact date.  Her cousin, the future George II of Greece, was born July 20, 1890.

About the photograph with her grandfather.  She really looks happy in it, one of the few photos I've seen where she does look happy.....

It's too bad she and Dmitri could not have grown up among these relatives....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on September 18, 2005, 11:06:21 AM
I was surprised that Maria did not have a close relationship with her aunt (& her mother's sister) Maria Georgievna who also married into the Romanov family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: isabel on September 18, 2005, 11:41:22 AM
For me is very surprising too, Alexandra was the only sister of Maria, and both lived in Russia.

I posted this same question few days ago in the branch of Greek Royal Family.

It seems that Maria was an spoilt child, and that Maria and her had very similars caractheres, but the difference is that Maria Georgievna was an adult, and Maria Paulovna, a girl......and what about Dimitri?.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on September 30, 2005, 12:01:03 PM
Staffan Scott's book is really very good. It was published only in Swedish and Russian. One of my favourite books! :D - good texts (esp.on Maria Pavlovna) and great pictures!

BTW, that last photo of Maria posted by Zolishka is my fave too! :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 30, 2005, 09:12:05 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/3bf37b2d.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/marieofrussua.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/princeandprincesswilliam.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/mariapavlovna.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on October 01, 2005, 02:56:22 PM
I just started reading the 2nd volume of her memoirs (Princess in Exile) and my opinion of her is changed somewhat. She comes off much more sympathetic and introspective then she did in her first volume where she seemed angrier and harsher in her views and attitudes. It makes an interesting read--especially how she picks up and starts her own business in order to survive while so many others just sort of floundered around.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: kmerov on October 02, 2005, 05:24:36 PM
I just finished her memoirs and I found her interesting. She was pretty harsh but you have to admire her will to go own and start something, instead of just complaining.
A bit morbid, but in her memoirs she mentiones pictures taken of the bodies of Ella, Vladimir and the K-princes. i wounder if anyone has seen them?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 02, 2005, 05:47:37 PM
Quote
A bit morbid, but in her memoirs she mentiones pictures taken of the bodies of Ella, Vladimir and the K-princes. i wounder if anyone has seen them?

There were some deeply disturbing pictures pictures posted on the 'Ella's Grave' thread, in the Hessian section.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: kmerov on October 02, 2005, 06:20:05 PM
Thanks for the directions Mrs. E. And yes quite disturbing. Hope she and the others didn't suffer to long.:-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 02, 2005, 06:57:49 PM
Quote
I just started reading the 2nd volume of her memoirs (Princess in Exile) and my opinion of her is changed somewhat. She comes off much more sympathetic and introspective then she did in her first volume where she seemed angrier and harsher in her views and attitudes. It makes an interesting read--especially how she picks up and starts her own business in order to survive while so many others just sort of floundered around.


I know what you mean, GD Ella.  Marie seems at first such a hard and cynical character.  After I read the second volume, I felt a little more sympathy for her.  She was so angry, I think at the irony of her life, and I also think there were many feelings she could not put into words.  She was highly intelligent, as were many of the people in her immediate family, but she did not know how to apply it.  I believe she was one of those people whose mind worked a little differently than everyone else's. You would almost have to be in her shoes to understand her, experiencing major loss and upheaval by an early age....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2005, 12:17:19 PM
This is fascinating, it is nice to learn more about more minor but still interesting members of the Romanov family. I read Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna's memoirs a few years ago, and coudn't really understand her except that it seems she was searching for happiness, but never attained it. She was a complicated character, and I don't think she is easily summed up. I did not realize that Prince Lennart was alive so late, or anything about his later life. I agree that Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was not very maternal, in either photos or reality, and that she did at least in that picture, resemble Drew Barrymore quite a bit.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Katia on October 11, 2005, 06:21:44 AM
Quote
Does anyone know where the name "Lennart" came from?  I've never seen it in the Russian or Swedish Royal Families, or for that matter, I've never seen it anywhere.  Although it does sound alot like "Leonard".


I don't know why Maria and Wilhelm chose the name for their son but I know it's a very common and largely used name in Sweden.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2006, 06:04:59 AM
More pics of Maria

Here she is dancing ( the ball in honour of her engagement)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpdsance.jpg)

Very stylish photo

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpy7.jpg)

Brave woman and a tiger!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mptiger.jpg)

As a photographer

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpy.jpg )


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on January 24, 2006, 06:25:15 AM
Great photos Sveta.

The first one--from the engagement ball--is great! I have a postcard where she's wearing that costume but I had no frame of reference for what she was wearing or what the occasion was. Thanks so much.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2006, 06:54:31 AM
Quote
Great photos Sveta.

The first one--from the engagement ball--is great! I have a postcard where she's wearing that costume but I had no frame of reference for what she was wearing or what the occasion was. Thanks so much.  :)


She is dancing a Russian dance there (Zenaida Yussupova dances the same in the pictures that Brian posted in the "Yussupov " thread). Maria P. had a great success with that dance  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on January 28, 2006, 11:26:28 PM
Svetabel, thank you.

These are some of the best photos I've ever seen of Marie...I particularly adore the one of her with her camera as I've only seen one or two of her in later life.
The "glamour shot" is also fabulous, reminds me of Marie during her Kitmir years....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on February 01, 2006, 08:57:21 AM
I think you can misunderstand GD Marie Pavlovna, but when you get to reading her book and really considering her, you realize she was a fascinating, misunderstood woman, and that she tried her best to have a second life in exile, when it was so easy not to try. After I read her book, I respected her alot more. And she was pretty as these lovely pictures of her illustrate.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 01, 2006, 09:33:53 AM
Quote
I. After I read her book, I respected her alot more.

She was an uniqie among her exiled relatives. Her will to live and survive is worthy to respect alot. She is my fave person of the all the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2006, 04:11:49 PM
I can't say that I like her overmuch but I certainly respect her a great deal. It took a lot to pull herself up after the Revolution--having basically lost Lennart beforehand, then to see Dmitri banished, lose her father, aunt & half-brother to violent deaths, lose her homeland and most her wordly possessions and then her infant son all within a short period of times. Many exiles, and not among the Romanovs, seemed to never adjust to the new world they found themselves in and to live increasingly frustrated and bitter lives, constantly looking backward and at what was lost. Marie, like Olga A, took stock of what the situation was and adjusted accordingly. It wasn't always easy or a smooth transition--and Marie admits to some real depressed periods--but they managed to carve out a new life for themselves and find a measure of peace and independence.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Lisa on February 13, 2006, 06:17:57 PM

Maria Pavlovna: (http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5664/pdvd0955ds.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pdvd0955ds.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 15, 2006, 06:12:02 AM



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/PrincessMaria_portrait.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: dp5486 on February 16, 2006, 09:21:47 AM
Has anyone seen any pictures of her with her second husband or her son Roman? I know it was a difficult time for her at the time and she didn't get much time with her son but I was just wondering.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Angie_H on February 16, 2006, 10:41:46 AM
Didn't Roman die as a baby?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: dp5486 on February 16, 2006, 02:24:00 PM
I think Roman didn't make it much past his first birthday. I read that Marie left him with her in-laws when she and her husband fled Russia and it was during this time he died. This is why I was wondering if any photos had possibly been taken during his brief time with his mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2006, 04:19:15 PM
It was during wartime and rather chaotic. I don't know if they would've taken photos. If they had, they could've been lost in the Revolution. I'd think she might've put them in one of her books if she'd had them but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 17, 2006, 01:16:18 AM
Quote
Has anyone seen any pictures of her with her second husband or her son Roman?

Thanks!


There is only one photo of Maria and her 2nd husband I've seen. It's their photo at some reception/dinner in exiled years. Maria looks sad and tired in that pic. :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2006, 08:39:51 AM
Well, what she went through would make anybody sad and tired no doubt, so that is understandable. Marie has to be respected for living a life in exile, and trying to do something with her life, far away from the world and traditions she had known. I don't think there are any photos of Roman, given that it was a chaotic time, and he didn't live very long. And if there were, they didn't survived most likely. I am not saying it's impossible as sometimes photos pop up from no were, it just isn't very likely, nor have I seen any.I used to wonder if there were any photos of Roman myself, but then concluded for the above reasons, that there probably weren't any.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: frimousse on May 11, 2006, 08:24:45 PM
Gdss Marie Pavlovna ran a fashion workshop in Paris, KITMIR, avenue Montaigne. This photography was taken in 1927. She won an award at this time for her work.
She sold Russian embroideries to her friend Coco Chanel. Through her, Chanel made the acquaintance of GD Dimitri and was madly in love, but as Frédéric Miterrand in his documentary-video underlines, "Chanel loved the beauty of men but not their embraces", she was fascinated by Dimitri's stories about Imperial Russia, uniforms and dresses ...

Marie was the one who spotted an American beauty, immensely rich, clever, well-bred in the French riviera: Audrey Emery. And introduced her to her brother so he could settle down and marry.
It is told that Chanel was very upset and so decided to forget all this matter of Russian fashion afterwards and prefered English tweeds during her affair with the Duke of Westminster !!!

After that Marie sold her workshop and went to America where she wrote her memoirs, and again took flight in Buenos Aires. She was a reputed photographer for American "Vogue" ( She made a photo-report of her cousin Queen Marie in Romania).
Lennart has always forgiven his "strange" mother. She never wanted to be called by him Mother, Mama or Mummy, but just instead Marie...

I think she had a sort of sister-brother complex, and considered her son as a brother substitute after Dimitri's death in 1942.

She visited him frequently with huge amount of luggage and cameras. To fetch her at the railway station, Lennart had to rent a lorry...
When he visited her in Argentina he noticed -though she had a maid who made curtsy and called her Her Imperial Highness- that she was in a desperate situation, physically, morally...She was ill, very lonely, short of money.
Mainau was for her a place where she could rest when she was in Europe between photo-reports ( Lennart had installed a photo-laboratory just for her in the Schloss). And she was always glad to show him her works as an elder sister does it with her brother...
He understood her lonelyness and asked her to settle in Mainau. Which she did. She was exhausted by life, just exhausted...She remained her last three or four years with her son, whose wife looked gently after her...
At the end she has found someone who looked after her...

I think she was traumatized by life. She had always to take flight, to run away , to escape love and little children...
Very moving destiny indeed...  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on May 17, 2006, 10:06:34 AM
Yes, Marie could indeed have been traumatized by life, as many members of the Imperial Family were after the the Revolution. I see her as a woman of conflicts, but as a survivor, in the end. Not perfect, but someone who did her best to cope with ife, even if she did not always keep a good attitude, nor succeed.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: joye on August 12, 2006, 08:32:44 PM
Re Marie Pavlovna's marriage to Willem of Sweden, I seem to remember reading, but cannot recall where, that Ella's sister, Irene of Prussia, was the instigator of the marriage. When Ella became aware of how unhappy MP was, she tried to stop the marriage, but was unsuccessful.


Signed HRH
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on August 13, 2006, 03:46:30 AM
When Ella became aware of how unhappy MP was, she tried to stop the marriage, but was unsuccessful.


Signed HRH

Ella became aware only after MP's marriage and was very surprised and upset.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on January 12, 2007, 11:06:03 AM
Re Marie Pavlovna's marriage to Willem of Sweden, I seem to remember reading, but cannot recall where, that Ella's sister, Irene of Prussia, was the instigator of the marriage. When Ella became aware of how unhappy MP was, she tried to stop the marriage, but was unsuccessful.


Signed HRH

I am pretty sure that Ella arranged it, and that she wasn't really aware of how unhappy Marie was. Or was Marie that unhappy? It seems that she might have exaggerated how unhappy she really was in her memoirs.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: hikaru on February 22, 2007, 01:40:25 PM
By the way , who knows the exact date of her engagement with Sweden Prince?
I have read 20th June/3 th May (or 5th May).
But at her memoirs she wrote it as the beginning of the June.

I also have read in one russian article, that her nickname at the emigree circles was "Zolushka Romanova", which means "Cinderella Romanov".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on February 22, 2007, 03:36:58 PM
The marriage took place on May 3--that's the date in The Times of London which covered the wedding.

I don't know about the engagement.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 23, 2007, 06:24:35 AM
By the way , who knows the exact date of her engagement with Sweden Prince?
I have read 20th June/3 th May (or 5th May).
But at her memoirs she wrote it as the beginning of the June.

I also have read in one russian article, that her nickname at the emigree circles was "Zolushka Romanova", which means "Cinderella Romanov".

The wedding took place in 20 April/3 May 1908. The engagement was near a year ago...so it could be May-June 1907.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: lori_c on February 23, 2007, 09:33:49 AM
Re Marie Pavlovna's marriage to Willem of Sweden, I seem to remember reading, but cannot recall where, that Ella's sister, Irene of Prussia, was the instigator of the marriage. When Ella became aware of how unhappy MP was, she tried to stop the marriage, but was unsuccessful.


Signed HRH

I am pretty sure that Ella arranged it, and that she wasn't really aware of how unhappy Marie was. Or was Marie that unhappy? It seems that she might have exaggerated how unhappy she really was in her memoirs.

Ella didn't understand how unhappy MP really was until the events w/the "Doctor" who recommended that MP be entrusted to his care and taken away from Sweden for "rest".  Ella, who was very suspicious of this, disagreed and realized what MP was up against.  When MP finally left Sweden to run to her father in Paris, Ella was extremely sympathetic and accepted MP w/open arms.  There was no rebuke only guilt on Ella's part for not realizing sooner the situation.  Also, the Swedish Court was different from the Russian one and MP never exactly felt that she fit in.  She was very young and very homesick.  Even though she continued to have (luckily) the support of her Swedish in-laws while in Sweden and for the rest of her life.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on April 07, 2007, 03:16:17 AM
Maria with her brother and father

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/pdm.jpg)

A hockey team (in Sweden) - Maria is at the very left, front row

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/jockmp.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Teddy on April 07, 2007, 03:29:22 AM
What a wonderful photo's. Were did you got the last picture?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: scarlett_riviera on April 07, 2007, 04:36:07 AM
wow a hockey team! she looks adorable on the second photo. When were these photos taken? Thanks for posting them. :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on April 07, 2007, 07:51:24 AM
I don't know the exact dates of the photos, the 2nd one is probably of 1910-1912 years. And the 1st could be taken just before/after Maria's "escape" from Sweden.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on June 30, 2007, 12:20:46 AM
By the way , who knows the exact date of her engagement with Sweden Prince?
I have read 20th June/3 th May (or 5th May).
But at her memoirs she wrote it as the beginning of the June.

I also have read in one russian article, that her nickname at the emigree circles was "Zolushka Romanova", which means "Cinderella Romanov".

The wedding took place in 20 April/3 May 1908. The engagement was near a year ago...so it could be May-June 1907.

I've just found in an old newspaper of 1907 year that the engagement took place in June 2. Probably that was an official announcement.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: TampaBay on June 30, 2007, 07:43:01 AM

Where did this jewelry come from Russia or Sweeden?

Maria Pavlovna Jr. is quite attratvive almost beautiful in this picture.  Is this Swedish court attire?

I can never get over how much she resembles Drew Barrymore.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on June 30, 2007, 01:59:14 PM
It's Swedish Court dress. The top necklace (of diamond loops) seems to be one that Ella gave her. The rest, I don't know.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 01, 2007, 01:49:04 PM
I feel sorry for Marie, if she wasn't so stubborn and bratty and at least try to get along better with Wilhelm of Sweden (theres so many ways too ;)) i wound think she was a better person, but shes a sadist in many ways.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on July 01, 2007, 02:28:17 PM
but shes a sadist in many ways.

For example?.. "Sadist" sounds too much IMO in the case of Maria Pavlovna. It's just me but sadistic was Hitler and not a Grand Duchess who just was not able to search her heart and puzzle out her own emotions.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 02, 2007, 07:53:38 AM
Well, not as evil or mist up like Hitler. I'll take that back, since I can't delete it.

What I mean of the Grand Duchess, is that she a poor little rich girl, wants more then she has, she should be blessed (expt that fact that of a unhappy marriage and that issue with her adopted patents- Uncle Sergei and Aunt Ella, and that of dad and late mother; big deal! others have it worse!) that there were people to care for her and she was very rich. That explains that money isn't everything. From reading her memoirs she was just so unhappy, no good thoughts, only like end of the world, negative, I just can’t handle people like that.

A kid I know had it a lot worse then Marie Pavlovna in his past, and his no prince. I am sure others have it a lot worse, then the both of them (my friend and the Grand Duchess), but a grand duchess feeling sorry for herself, she should be blessed that she made it out of Russia during the Revaluation in one piece!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on July 02, 2007, 09:02:57 AM
From reading her memoirs she was just so unhappy, no good thoughts, only like end of the world, negative, I just can’t handle people like that.


can’t handle people like that. - yes, many of us can't handle people like that and that's why it's unfair to  label them at once . I mean that very often and almost constantly we judge the people of the past from our own modern point of views , we try to explain their behaviour as if they are our contemporaries. It's natural as we live here and now and not then and there. That's why it's very difficult for us to understand them in many ways of their life, understand their characters and thoughts, whims and habits. Sometimes we
reason about  as if we know BETTER and MORE about them than themselves - but we never lived there, we never knew them...Well, the main tune of my  tirade - let's try to understand (and not from modern point of view) before labelling some historical person. :)

And of course many people have it a lot worse but why blaming Grand Duchess for feeling sorry for herself?  The more so she doesn't cry away on every page of her memoirs, I don't see only negative in her lines.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on July 02, 2007, 09:25:54 AM
Well, not as evil or mist up like Hitler. I'll take that back, since I can't delete it.

What I mean of the Grand Duchess, is that she a poor little rich girl, wants more then she has, she should be blessed (expt that fact that of a unhappy marriage and that issue with her adopted patents- Uncle Sergei and Aunt Ella, and that of dad and late mother; big deal! others have it worse!) that there were people to care for her and she was very rich. That explains that money isn't everything. From reading her memoirs she was just so unhappy, no good thoughts, only like end of the world, negative, I just can’t handle people like that.

A kid I know had it a lot worse then Marie Pavlovna in his past, and his no prince. I am sure others have it a lot worse, then the both of them (my friend and the Grand Duchess), but a grand duchess feeling sorry for herself, she should be blessed that she made it out of Russia during the Revaluation in one piece!


Do you mean perhaps masochistic (Self-destructive, punishing, and self-defeating) rather than sadistic (using cruel, demaning and/or violent behaviors)? I still wouldn't completely concur, for much of the reasons Svetabel gave, but it would seem more in line with the behaviors MP could exhibit. Except for her son, Lennart, most of Marie's behaviors hurt only herself and even towards Lennart she wasn't overtly cruel, just rather lacked the maternal instinct.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: pookiepie on September 21, 2007, 12:11:15 AM
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/87.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/83.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: pookiepie on September 21, 2007, 12:41:21 AM
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/61.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/71.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/63.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: pookiepie on September 21, 2007, 12:43:33 AM
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/72.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/73.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/77.jpg)

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/78.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: loulia on September 22, 2007, 03:05:37 AM
thank you for thoses wonderful photos!
I never noticed before how much she looked like her mother
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: zolishka on September 26, 2007, 02:36:50 PM
Just wanted to share theese two of Maria

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/likeafly/sverige/19.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/likeafly/sverige/20.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on October 30, 2007, 11:38:57 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Mariapjr.jpg)

(http://)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/mariawork.jpg)
Working on a dress for her shop

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on October 30, 2007, 11:40:03 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Scan0008.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marie Valerie on November 02, 2007, 03:24:47 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/5706424.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on December 05, 2007, 02:27:30 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/maria1937.jpg)
Maria in 1937

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/mariap1932.jpg)
Maria 1932
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on December 05, 2007, 02:37:23 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/maria1932.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on December 10, 2007, 02:44:48 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/mariap.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/mariap1940.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 10, 2007, 05:01:05 AM
The last photo of Maria is very stylish.  I am always amused with these ladies of the 1930-1950s years who even being photographed held a sigarette!!! :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on December 12, 2007, 02:09:03 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/1932lamariap.jpg)

Maria in Los Angelos, Ca in 1932.

For some reason a lot of her pictures are popping up on Ebay.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Victor on December 12, 2007, 01:58:25 PM
Love the fox fur.The luggage too,looks well travelled.Is that a typewriter case I can see amongst the suitcases?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2007, 12:17:07 AM
Many of her photos have been up for sale for awhile. I've bought some in the past--the ones that aren't too expensive. Some of the ones up there are duplicates (though originals) of some of those press photos. I like to get them (when they aren't as expensive as the Kira ones) because they're larger than most postcards and give you an original photo.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on December 13, 2007, 02:24:46 AM
Many of her photos have been up for sale for awhile. I've bought some in the past--the ones that aren't too expensive. Some of the ones up there are duplicates (though originals) of some of those press photos. I like to get them (when they aren't as expensive as the Kira ones) because they're larger than most postcards and give you an original photo.

I've never purchased any postcards or photos because I always think they are just copies that people print from their home computers. However, I must admit there have been several pictures appear which I had never seen before and which I wished I would have purchased because they appeared to be one of a kind...Ebay is rich with rare finds. Along with pictures I also found several books which also appeared to be rare at least here in the US about Grand Duke Sergei and the Youssoupovs, however they were so expensive!!! It was a real shame too because they really seemed to contain a lot of information.

Sorry I went off topic here.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: russianlover76 on January 05, 2008, 10:38:57 PM
Was there a book about the life of Maria Pavlovna Jr.?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on January 05, 2008, 10:49:57 PM
There's at least one in Russian and there are her 2 autobiographies.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 07, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
Was there a book about the life of Maria Pavlovna Jr.?

Also a bio in German.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royaltybuff on February 11, 2008, 06:13:14 PM


(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/77.jpg)



It that Grand Duchess Maria with her grandfather, King George I of Greece in the carriage in the third photo?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Gabriella on February 11, 2008, 08:23:42 PM
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/harbinharbin/77.jpg)
It that Grand Duchess Maria with her grandfather, King George I of Greece in the carriage in the third photo?

No. The picture showed her with her husband, Prince Wilhelm of Sweden. It was made in 1908 when she arrived in Stockholm.

Gabriella
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royaltybuff on February 11, 2008, 09:02:49 PM
Okay, now I see it. It looks like he has a mustache and that threw me off. Thanks.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: daga maria on March 03, 2008, 02:24:08 PM
Has anyone ever heard about an illigitimate child born to her in 1907 in Sweden? I haven't read her biographies-is there any mention of this in either of them?
All of these pictures are fantastic!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 03, 2008, 04:52:22 PM
Illegitimate child? what? doubt it, and she wasn't even in Sweden in 1907! she married Wilhelm a year later in 1908 and had a son Lennart a year after that, in 1909.

Theres No Illegitimate children of Maria, she only had two sons while being married.

Maria had her second son Roman in 1918, with her second husband Sergei.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: daga maria on March 03, 2008, 10:58:28 PM
My understanding is that Maria and Wilhelm were engaged in 1905 and that she was in Sweden before
their marriage in 1908.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 04, 2008, 12:35:15 AM
My understanding is that Maria and Wilhelm were engaged in 1905 and that she was in Sweden before
their marriage in 1908.

She had never been in Sweden before 1908.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 04, 2008, 03:48:28 PM
daga maria- May I asked where did you find this source? from all the books that i  had read info of Maria Pavlovna Jr,  I never came across  this one, possibly fake.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Valmont on March 05, 2008, 10:20:08 AM
Daga maria... By any chance that illegitimate child  was one of your ancestors????
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: daga maria on March 06, 2008, 11:00:03 PM
My grandmother was born in Sweden in 1907-then adopted and brought to the U.S.  Before her adopted mother died she told my
grandfather that her real mother was the princess of Sweden and that she was illegitimate. My grandmother's adoptive parents were
not well off yet made several trips back to Sweden when she was young. She remembered going to a big building where a lady would
meet them and take her inside and spend time with her. I have some letters written to her from a Maria(all in Swedish). Maria Romanov is
the only one that fits into this picture. Alas-I have no solid proof-but am very interested in learning more about this. There are some strong
resemblances between pictures of my grandmother and of Maria-not proof-but interesting. I have not found any mention of Maria having
an illegitimate child anywhere, not surprisingly, so that is why I posted my question here-you all seem very interested in her and thought
possibly someone may have come across some hint of this somewhere. My aim is not to start any kind of rumor or scandal or anything-
I'm just trying to look into this.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 17, 2008, 05:45:03 AM


Marie always fascinated me. She is such a puzzling character. I had read several biographies about the Romanovs as a teenager, but her's was the first Romanov autobiography that I read. She expresses great compassion and love for certain individuals in her memoirs (her brother, her father, Volodia Paley, the patients she treated), but seemed incapable of relating to others in every day life. She comes across as arrogant and unlikable at one moment and amusing the next. She was clearly a survivor. Reading her memoirs I couldn't help but wonder what her life (and Dmitri's) would have been like had her mother lived. It is such a shame Alexandra died so very young and in such a traumatic way. On some level poor Dmitri must have felt guilty that she died giving birth to him. At least he and Marie had each other growing up, but while Sergei was demostrative (sometimes) Ella's coolness toward them surprised me.  I realize Sergei was possessive, and didn't care to share the children with anyone, even their actual father. Still, I can not understand why someone like Ella, who was kind and sympathetic, and who understood only too well what it was to lose a mother as a child, wasn't a more nurturing surrogate mother to Maria and Dmitri. Was she honestly so jealous of the attention Sergei paid them? Or was it that she found them a painful reminder of her own childlessness?

What is even more incredible, at least in my eyes, is that Marie, who discussed at length in her book just how miserable the separation from her own father made her, would then repeat this pattern by leaving her own son. How very sad.

What role, if any, did the Greek royals play in Marie and Dmitri's childhood? Did they visit their grandparents often as children at Tatoi? I haven't read any mention of them doing so anywhere. I believe their uncle Prince Christopher mentioned their mother's death in his own memoirs, but I don't think he discussed them visiting his family in Greece or at Pavlovsk. It's been years since I read his book, though.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on March 21, 2008, 03:07:21 AM
Nadya Arapov, I just wanted to say that I agree with your assessment of Marie Pavlovna's character. She is puzzling. In another thread, you said there should be a biography of Dmitri, her brother. I would agree with you, and also someone should attempt to sort out her character more in a biography or joint one with her brother. We have her own words, but she really is illusive because although she comes across quite clearly, unlike Irina, the wife of Felix Yusupov, it is hard to know what to make of Marie P. I wouldn't have wanted to know her, yet she is so very interesting and complex, and very Romanov.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 21, 2008, 04:29:40 AM
I would certainly reserve a copy, Imperial Angel. One would think given the nature of their lives that an author would have jumped at the chance to write about these two ages ago. Their lives certainly weren’t staid. Think of all the dramatic points - two members of the Romanov family, related to practically every other royal family, orphaned in infancy, raised by such an unique pair (Ella and Sergei were also fascinating figures), their exiled father who married for love, their complicated relationship with Ella, Serge, Alix, and Nicholas, their Grandfather King George’s assassination, Marie’s arranged marriage, her leaving Lennart and returning to Russia, Rasputin’s murder, the Revolution, Marie’s dramatic escape, exile, Marie’s work in fashion and their joint connection to Coco Chanel, Dmitri’s marriage to an heiress…

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 21, 2008, 07:55:40 AM
I would certainly reserve a copy, Imperial Angel. One would think given the nature of their lives that an author would have jumped at the chance to write about these two ages ago.

Someone actually IS writing about Dmitri at least, and there was another writer who contemplated Marie, but who may I think have abandoned that plan. I also think that the two would work well as a joint biography since their lives were so inter-linked that they've been called emotionally incestuous.
The problem with such relatively obscure characters is that while small specialist publishers might consider commissioning a biography of them, larger mainstream houses would be wary of losing money.....so it depends on the author and what he or she is prepared or able to accept in terms of remuneration.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on April 27, 2008, 04:09:37 AM
First Wedding of Maria:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-234208.png
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-233778.png
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royaltybuff on April 27, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
First Wedding of Maria:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-234208.png
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-233778.png

Great photos, Alexandre64! I have never seen them. Grand Duchess Marie and Prince Willem look like a couple of scared kids.  :(.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 03, 2008, 10:20:46 PM
What role, if any, did the Greek royals play in Marie and Dmitri's childhood? Did they visit their grandparents often as children at Tatoi? I haven't read any mention of them doing so anywhere. I believe their uncle Prince Christopher mentioned their mother's death in his own memoirs, but I don't think he discussed them visiting his family in Greece or at Pavlovsk. It's been years since I read his book, though.


[/quote]

Marie has always fascinated me as well.  I think she was emotionally very immature (and remained that way throughout her life) because of never having known her mother and being distanced from her father.  Although Serge may have been affectionate at times, I think he probably treated her more as sort of a dress up doll than as a daughter.  Ella, I believe was emotionally distant as well due to her own issues.  Marie was certainly spoiled beyond belief and I think her education was not attended to at hardly any level.  All of this equaled disaster for a woman of her natural intellect and artistic abilities.  She probably had no grasp of reality until the revolution.  William and she were both virtually children, at least emotionally, when they married, and Marie did not know how to bond even with her own child.  She fell victim to a cycle--her father really did not bond with her, she did not bond with Lennart.  This sounds cheesy but in most of her pictures, it looks like she needs a big hug.

I never really understood her lack of connectedness to her Greek relatives.  I think she did visit or see her grandmother (Olga) and great-grandmother occasionally at Pavlovsk, but not that often.

It is a shame they weren't closer because the Greeks were such a large and loving family, she probably would have found a home and acceptance among them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 04, 2008, 11:52:17 PM
 I actually deal with some of these parenting issues in my biography of Dmitri on the AP site. That said, I'm not sure that all of the issues you mention with her are attributable to the somewhat chaotic parenting she received.

As far as their Greek grandparents go, it seems they saw little of them prior to WWI. During this period, it was tough enough to see their father, let alone the grandparents. Once Queen Olga returned to Russia as a widow, I believe she became close with Marie. But, I don't think the Greek royals would have been a panacea of them either, as they had their own problems and generally lived far away.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 02, 2008, 08:09:42 AM
Maria Pvlovna and her first husband:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-204247.png

Tomb of Maria and Dimitri:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-207540.png
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-207755.png
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 12, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
Link to an article in the NY Times describing the nuptials of Maria and William:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03E7DB143EE233A25757C0A9639C946997D6CF
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: carl fraley on August 14, 2008, 01:51:40 AM
In "Education of a Princess" HIH Grand Duchess Marie said that her Aunt was only entitled to the interest of Sergei 's estate that the inheritance that was lawfully and rightfully hers, her aunt had disposes of some of it without asking her about it.  What all did Marie inherit?  What law is she referencing?  Anyone know?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on August 26, 2008, 02:43:31 AM
Maria and Lennart:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/MP1.jpg)


maria and first husband:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/MP.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on August 26, 2008, 02:45:01 AM
maria and Lennart:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-79591.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-79685.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-79789.png)

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-79478.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 07, 2008, 07:17:19 AM
Maria Pavlovna:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84641-1.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84729.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84808.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84641.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84285.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 07, 2008, 07:19:44 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-85400.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84206.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-84120.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-81874.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Nemos on September 09, 2008, 11:59:40 AM
(http://s55.radikal.ru/i150/0809/14/7f3df084f441t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s55.radikal.ru/i150/0809/14/7f3df084f441.jpg.html)

Великая княгиня Мария Павловна на охоте. Царское Село. Интересно где именно ? (1903)
Grand duchess Maria Pavlovna on hunting. Tsarskoje Selo. Interestingly where exactly? (1903)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on September 09, 2008, 01:31:38 PM
(http://s55.radikal.ru/i150/0809/14/7f3df084f441t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s55.radikal.ru/i150/0809/14/7f3df084f441.jpg.html)

Великая княгиня Мария Павловна на охоте. Царское Село. Интересно где именно ? (1903)
Grand duchess Maria Pavlovna on hunting. Tsarskoje Selo. Interestingly where exactly? (1903)

That's not the heroine of our thread, that's GDss Maria Pavlovna-ELDER, spouse of GD Vladimir.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on October 06, 2008, 06:59:41 AM
Maria P., Lennart and DImitri:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-208393.png)

Lennart and Dimitri:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-208271.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-208562.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-208476.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 07, 2008, 01:35:37 PM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_2370945311_be30b1d014_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2370945311_be30b1d014_o.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_2459533544_08a3a82178_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2459533544_08a3a82178_o.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_2530827409_6c6a5d7fb4.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2530827409_6c6a5d7fb4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 08, 2008, 03:46:01 PM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_2176991803_c5b918432f_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2176991803_c5b918432f_o.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_2177783122_442ddbe491_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2177783122_442ddbe491_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on October 09, 2008, 02:12:41 AM
Maria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/vlcsnap-207655.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royalboy202 on October 11, 2008, 12:54:02 PM
Any pictures of Maria P with her sister-in-law Crown Princess Margaret or with her Great Grandparents King Christian IX and Queen Louise?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royaltybuff on October 11, 2008, 01:53:27 PM
There is a photo with both Crown Princess Margaret and Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna with a group of Russian, Swedish and Greek royal family members on page 4 of the Queen Olga of Greece's Granddaughters thread in the Greek Royal Family. Margaret is in back and Maria stands arm-in-arm in front with her grandfather, King George I of Greece.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on October 11, 2008, 02:58:36 PM
Any pictures of Maria P with her sister-in-law Crown Princess Margaret
Here they are sitting together in the group of relatives

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/PrincessMaria_RussianandSweddenrela.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 19, 2008, 01:38:12 PM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2941654902_a0471b3451_o.jpg)

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2951780540_31828bf270_o.jpg)

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/2941654746_7ec9b96512_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on October 21, 2008, 03:29:48 PM
Love that picture of her by the mirror! Incredidbly lovely!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 26, 2008, 01:32:44 PM
Love that picture of her by the mirror! Incredibly lovely!

I see that Lennart's widow, Countess Sonia Bernadotte of Wisborg, died on October 21, 2008. She only outlived Lennart by 4 years - she was only 64 year old and had an 11 year fight with breast cancer.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 26, 2008, 01:58:11 PM
Aww, thats a pity. cancer stinks!  :(

didn't their youngest daughter remarried or something?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 13, 2008, 05:35:01 AM
Prince Lennart and his father Wilhelm

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/BBBwilhemlennartsmall.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2008, 06:47:27 PM
Lennart looked like his mother as a kid.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on December 04, 2008, 10:09:33 AM
Four high-quality photos of Marie

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=grand+duchess+russia+source%3Alife
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 27, 2008, 07:40:35 AM
Maria P. on the aunt Ella emerald:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/mp2-1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/mP1-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 27, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
Maria P., in Swedish costume
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/a8b0_11.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2008, 01:05:41 PM
Thanks. She did got the emerald tiara and necklace from Ella...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 27, 2008, 01:59:32 PM
I do not know if the Grand Duchess Elisabeth has directly offered to Maria P. or if she went to GD Paul then he has reportedly offered his daughter
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2008, 04:48:44 PM
No Ellaleft part of her jewelry collection to her wards Marie & Dimitri. That has nothing to do with Grand Duke Paul at all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 31, 2008, 02:40:35 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/romanova_mariya_romanova_11.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 01, 2009, 02:38:44 PM
Young women:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/MariaRomanova1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 02, 2009, 02:20:15 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/15444071_Velikaya_knyaginya_Mariya_.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 02, 2009, 11:56:59 AM
Marie as a dress designer in Paris.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 03, 2009, 08:09:59 AM
Maria nd her husband

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_Prins20Wilhelm20och20Maria20Pavlona.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Prins20Wilhelm20och20Maria20Pavlona.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2009, 11:52:45 AM
Was she close to her grandfather ? She did not mention him much in her memoirs...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 10, 2009, 02:29:23 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Masha1890socute1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/MariaPaulovnainrussiandress1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/dmitriimariapavlovabt19lb61.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 10, 2009, 02:33:57 PM
The last one is so beautiful and I´ve never seen it before! thank you for posting it.

I also wanted to ask - did Maria have any nickname? Maria Nikolaevna used to be called Maska, Maria Pavlovna the Elder Miechen.... did Maria Pavlovna J.R had any?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 10, 2009, 04:17:08 PM
I think her nickname was Marisha.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2009, 02:30:49 PM
Are you sure about that ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 12, 2009, 12:50:40 AM
Are you sure about that ?

Maria's nickname was Marisha. Even in her memoirs she once or two mentions this.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 12, 2009, 01:35:54 AM
Thank you Madie and Svetabel. I realy hope Iĺl get to read her memoirs one day. Must be awfully interesting.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 12, 2009, 02:19:42 AM
Maria, in court dress:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/MashaPaulovna1.jpg)

Maria and husband:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/WilhelmandMashaofSweden1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 02:35:26 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/MashaPaulovna-11.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Mashatoenlarge1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 08:52:32 AM
Yes I agree Drew Barrymore can play Marie well. they share similar looks.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 13, 2009, 12:41:23 PM
Yes I agree Drew Barrymore can play Marie well. they share similar looks.

Drew Barrymore only CAN POSE as Maria P. Nothing more. I can't imagine her playing a Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 02:28:33 PM
I think she can play Marie in a movie very well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 14, 2009, 12:28:04 AM
I think she can play Marie in a movie very well.

I don't think she is a really dramatic actress. We are off topic though.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 14, 2009, 12:31:33 AM
I think she can play Marie in a movie very well.

I don't think she is a really dramatic actress. We are off topic though.

You are correct. Any further remarks on who could/should/would portray the grand duchess should be posted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 14, 2009, 11:20:55 AM
Just throught it was a good likeness. Also it would be good to do a movie on the life of Marie P.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 16, 2009, 10:00:12 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Mashaportrait1.jpg)

Maria P., in court dress:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Mashacourtgown-11.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Masharussiangown-21.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 16, 2009, 12:22:57 PM
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3567/50030442xr0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 17, 2009, 07:06:43 AM
Maria, husband and Lennart:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/MashaWilhelmandLennart1.jpg)

Maria and husband:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/MashaundWilhelmgreatquality1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 18, 2009, 04:42:15 PM
If they were, it didn´t last too long....

Their son, cute little Lennart
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/3196434969_e1156116bf_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2009, 04:43:29 PM
Too cute !!!

Yes...we only got one side of the story though.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 19, 2009, 02:36:30 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Paley/Dimitri%20and%20maria/Mashawithfurs-11.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 05, 2009, 05:22:54 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/Maria_Pavlovna1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2009, 10:49:34 AM
Marie did have a great life in Stockholm.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 14, 2009, 12:41:49 PM
Marie did have a great life in Stockholm.

Firstly -- those photos were taken at her official entering Stockholm. Secondly - what's was GREAT? Usual life of the Royal persons. Moreover. for her forever great was her life in Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2009, 05:07:29 PM
Well...It turns out that life in Sweden was more secure than Russia. It was her in-laws and son (from Sweden) that bail her out when she had money problems...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 23, 2009, 02:39:30 AM
Would anyone happen to have Maria Pavlovna´s picture from 1903 costume ball? Or was it Maria Pavlovna the Elder (would love to see that one too...)?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 23, 2009, 04:38:20 AM
Would anyone happen to have Maria Pavlovna´s picture from 1903 costume ball? Or was it Maria Pavlovna the Elder (would love to see that one too...)?

Maria Pavlovna-younger didn't attend the 1903 ball. The photos of her elder namesake from the same event are scattered around in our Foums.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 23, 2009, 03:18:56 PM
Could anybody give me a link to such photo, because I can´t go through all the threads.... Pretty please....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2009, 03:28:05 PM
You can actually google it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 26, 2009, 05:54:18 AM
I have found it. But usually when somebody asks I send the picture. Saves the work and makes better relatioships.

Maria and Lennart
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_Mashaandsongreatquality.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Mashaandsongreatquality.jpg)

Maria with Dmitri
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_f33fc9ff54224a60sm7.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/f33fc9ff54224a60sm7.jpg)

In beautiful folk dress
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/th_marapavlovnarj9.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marapavlovnarj9.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 05, 2009, 02:35:44 AM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_3280923.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/3280923.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2009, 11:27:34 AM
A shot of her home in Paris ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 13, 2009, 05:22:17 AM
Possibly...

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_hg523a.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/hg523a.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 17, 2009, 01:55:39 PM
Maria´s arrival to Sweden

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_3362564156_3bc1e4bc69_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/3362564156_3bc1e4bc69_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 18, 2009, 03:25:30 PM
The big hats and the big boas. She looked more relaxed in the clothes of the 1920's.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 20, 2009, 02:47:46 AM
The big hats and the big boas. She looked more relaxed in the clothes of the 1920's.

No big deal with hats,boas and such stuff. And the 1920s. Had she loved Wilhelm she would have looked relaxed even in crinoline.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 22, 2009, 05:31:37 PM
Love is not everything, think about relocating to a new place you do not even know the language, she did not have enough time to know Wilhelm...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 23, 2009, 06:18:55 AM
Love is not everything, think about relocating to a new place you do not even know the language, she did not have enough time to know Wilhelm...

Let me surprise you that Maria had been learning Sweden language before arriving to Stockhom, and even without knowing enough Wilhelm she was ready "to built" her family life somehow and someway. And love sometimes is everything and a key thing for better relations.


All this was so many times had been discussed in our Forums, it's just amazing how you love to catch at some picture or whatever else to discuss more and more and more - I guess you can write a historical fiction - good chance to express all the feelings about the historical personages.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 23, 2009, 01:50:28 PM
Well. Didn't they say a picture is worth a thousand words ?

Nowadays people interpurate facial features and gestures to find out about what physical messages they are giving. Maria did not know Wilhelm enough to marry him, but she did make a go at it (although she later chose to blame Ella for pushing her that direction). If you say Diana married Charles (they knew each other as Diana was born in the Sandringham estate of Park House) and knew her family well. Maria was thrusted to an attractive stranger from a strange land. If she looked stressed coming to Sweden, it could be well understood.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 24, 2009, 01:56:03 AM
Maria did not know Wilhelm enough to marry him, but she did make a go at it (although she later chose to blame Ella for pushing her that direction). If you say Diana married Charles (they knew each other as Diana was born in the Sandringham estate of Park House) and knew her family well. Maria was thrusted to an attractive stranger from a strange land. If she looked stressed coming to Sweden, it could be well understood.

All this had been said and discussed many times. Don't see the parallel between Diana and Maria - not correct comparing.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: TampaBay on March 24, 2009, 08:07:14 AM
GD Marie was a true arranged dynastic match.  Wilhelm did not cheat on his wife.

Diana married Charles of her own free will.  Charles had a mistress

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 24, 2009, 12:24:21 PM
I think they both married too young, before they knew what they want in life.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 07, 2009, 06:58:29 AM
Labelled as 1935

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/GD_Marie_1935.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 12, 2009, 10:11:27 AM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/0db10823f60a3e1a.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on May 12, 2009, 10:45:58 AM
Grand Duchess Ally, the last picture had been posted by me at 4 page of this thread!

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=723.45 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=723.45)

Please, check the previous pages before posting images.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 12, 2009, 10:48:12 AM
I´m very sorry. I have been through the whole thread - unfortunatelly some time ago and I usually save all the images posted. I didn´t save this one however, therefore I thought it has not been posted yet. My apologies.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 17, 2009, 03:41:10 PM


This one has been posted before, but never in full
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/B85YMX.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 06, 2009, 02:18:10 AM
Grand Duchess
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/2484108730100532270mPSgRC_ph.jpg)

with her son
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/2341052440100532270WNAoKo_ph.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 10, 2009, 08:10:29 PM
hey Brian! long time no see! cool pic. 8)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: royalboy202 on July 29, 2009, 11:12:37 PM


Check out this video of Marie P and her husband William of Sweden.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t321Jo8gOSA&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 05, 2009, 08:59:19 AM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs/10267450a.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on November 10, 2009, 09:28:41 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/hpqscan0003-2-1.jpg)
GD Maria holding a picture of her mother, GD Alexandra, & Queen Olga holding baby Lennart
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 11, 2009, 09:06:26 PM
4 Generations ! I wonder if Lennart knew his grandmother Queen Olga ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 11, 2009, 10:42:58 PM
I think not close, since Lennart was always in Sweden with his dad he known whom Olga was, the Queen of Greece and his Great-grandmother.
She died when he was 17.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2009, 11:08:06 AM
Sad. Since Queen Olga was a big hearted woman and could be one for Lennart, but he already had a doting granny in Queen Victoria of Sweden.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 12, 2009, 04:59:04 PM
i'm sure there were some connections, like visits and letters.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2009, 05:13:28 PM
Rare I suspect. Most certainly Olga had her hands full with her numerous grand daughters.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on December 26, 2009, 01:02:39 AM
Marie and Dimitri - 1908

(http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/18380/2180478300102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2180478300102753164VglzzB)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2009, 12:00:03 PM
Dimitri was very handsome. No wonder Coco Chanel & Felix Yussopov fell for him...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: newfan on December 27, 2009, 01:27:40 PM
but he didnt age well ,was it because he smoked too much?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2009, 01:51:02 PM
Happens to those who are exiled. Dimitri did not have a role after the revolution. He became a drifter and that could be very frustrating to one who once sought to serve his country.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 27, 2009, 11:46:31 PM
but he didnt age well ,was it because he smoked too much?

He had very weak lungs, also the War, Revolution and exile took its toll on him.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: newfan on December 28, 2009, 12:47:31 AM
swetabel
I read that people in 1900 had "weak lungs"but what exactly that means?I know when he was sent into exile by Czar Nicholas II he got very sick and the english ambasadors wife took care of him(forgot what was wrong with him ,but was close to death)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 28, 2009, 07:19:41 AM
swetabel
I read that people in 1900 had "weak lungs"but what exactly that means?I know when he was sent into exile by Czar Nicholas II he got very sick and the english ambasadors wife took care of him(forgot what was wrong with him ,but was close to death)

"Weak lungs" meant those time  tuberculosis or inclination to it. Dmitriy never was strong, he was born prematurely and cheated death.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: newfan on December 28, 2009, 08:09:35 AM
you are right svetabel,forgot that he was born little soon.Thank you....I always thought ...because of his dark circles under eyes he was not well.(or is it just the old photograps?buts its on all of them)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 12:43:22 PM
Well... quite a few members of the Russian Royal family have circles under their eyes...including Xenia and Elena.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 02, 2010, 03:00:43 AM
Dimitri was very handsome. No wonder Coco Chanel & Felix Yussopov fell for him...

I've heard him described, when he was younger, as "like a piece of faberge" because of his well bred looks.  His photos support this description well I think.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on January 02, 2010, 03:52:30 AM
This should be thread about GD Maria not her brother Dmitri P.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 02, 2010, 01:58:21 PM
After reading A Princess in Exile Maria Grand Duchess, in her book she states she rarely saw Lennart, maybe every 3 years or so .... she does not seem to lament
over this fact nor does she when she mentions her son (with her 2nd husband Putiantin) who was left in Russia with her in-laws while she and Putiantin
escaped Russia (they were to follow)....her baby boy died in Russia at age 1.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 02, 2010, 02:49:23 PM
After reading A Princess in Exile Maria Grand Duchess, in her book she states she rarely saw Lennart, maybe every 3 years or so .... she does not seem to lament
over this fact nor does she when she mentions her son (with her 2nd husband Putiantin) who was left in Russia with her in-laws while she and Putiantin
escaped Russia (they were to follow)....her baby boy died in Russia at age 1.

I remember reading in Flight of the Romanovs that the reason Maria rarely saw Lennart had something to do with the Swedish court and the restrictions because of her divorce to Wilhelm. . .If she did not lament in a biography perhaps it is because it was not in her nature to 'wallow' so to speak over things she could not control. She did not like children in general but I don't believe she would wish to be parted from her own son
I was under the impression Maria was devastated at the death of her son Roman, I have read more than a few letters illustrating this
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on January 02, 2010, 03:05:42 PM
Not only was Dimitri born very prematurely, there may have been an inherited tendency towards TB, bearing in mind that his paternal grandmother died from it, as did his first cousin Georgi Alexandrovich. Dimitri's father was also far from robust, though I think his ill-health had more to do with his digestion than his lungs.

Did Dimitri smoke? That would not have helped matters.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 02, 2010, 03:47:06 PM
Yes. Dimitri did smoke, so did "his girl" Marie of Edinburgh.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 02, 2010, 03:49:48 PM
Yes Dmitri smoked, quite a lot actually. When he was in the sanatorium the doctors made him quit but that was only a year or two before he died
According to the memoirs of his valet Alexei Volkov, the Grand Duke Paul showed signs of tuberculosis and was in very poor health for most of his life

Eric Lowe: what do you mean Marie of Roumania was "his girl" ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 02, 2010, 07:28:04 PM
After reading A Princess in Exile Maria Grand Duchess, in her book she states she rarely saw Lennart, maybe every 3 years or so .... she does not seem to lament
over this fact nor does she when she mentions her son (with her 2nd husband Putiantin) who was left in Russia with her in-laws while she and Putiantin
escaped Russia (they were to follow)....her baby boy died in Russia at age 1.

Maria was devastated at the death of her son Roman, I have read more than a few letters illustrating this

Were these letters in Russian books?  Marie is an interesting character I think. I suspect she would be rather abrasive over time if you had to live with her and a full of contractiditions, but she was obviously intelligent and a survivor.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 02, 2010, 10:08:01 PM
Maybe. There isn't a full scale book on Marie and her life after she ended her books. A bio on her is in order. I will buy one if a good one comes along.

Dimitri wrote to Missy many years later talking about a supposed affair that happened. He refer to her as "my girl"...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 03, 2010, 12:14:20 AM
Maybe. There isn't a full scale book on Marie and her life after she ended her books. A bio on her is in order. I will buy one if a good one comes along.

Dimitri wrote to Missy many years later talking about a supposed affair that happened. He refer to her as "my girl"...

excuse my ignorance, who is "Missy"? do you remember where you found the letter you're talking about?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 03, 2010, 02:56:20 AM
Maybe. There isn't a full scale book on Marie and her life after she ended her books. A bio on her is in order. I will buy one if a good one comes along.



I have seen recent biographies written in Russian. A shame we'll probably never see translations. I've read short accounts of her life after her books end, but like yourself I would love to read a fully researched, objective biography of her life.  The bits I have read from other sources highlight some of the things she glossed over or left out and create a fuller picture, but they are no real substitue for a well written book.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 03, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
Maybe. There isn't a full scale book on Marie and her life after she ended her books. A bio on her is in order. I will buy one if a good one comes along.

Dimitri wrote to Missy many years later talking about a supposed affair that happened. He refer to her as "my girl"...

excuse my ignorance, who is "Missy"? do you remember where you found the letter you're talking about?

Princess Marie of Edinburgh is "Missy" - better known as Queen Marie of Roumania - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_Edinburgh

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on January 03, 2010, 04:39:14 AM
'Yes Dmitri smoked, quite a lot actually. When he was in the sanatorium the doctors made him quit but that was only a year or two before he died
According to the memoirs of his valet Alexei Volkov, the Grand Duke Paul showed signs of tuberculosis and was in very poor health for most of his life'

From what I know of Dimitri I'd have been surprised if he hadn't smoked. Interesting that he was eventually persuaded to give up, before it was generally realised that smoking was a bad thing.

One of my uncles had TB in the early 1950s. My mother reckoned that one reason he recovered was that he didn't smoke and actually did what he was told while in the sanatorium, unlike most of the other young chaps in there!

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 03, 2010, 05:58:17 AM
Please, don't forget there is a large thread on GD Dmitriy. This is a thread about HIS SISTER.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 03, 2010, 06:54:47 PM
has anyone heard of or read the book "Maria Pavlovna: A Romanov Grand Duchess in Russia and in Exile" by Marion Mienert? Wondering if it is worth buying :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2010, 08:27:01 PM
Never heard about that book is it new ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 03, 2010, 09:56:01 PM
It is listed on Amazon but it is not in stock. I had never heard of it until yesterday. It was written in 2004
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 03, 2010, 10:48:47 PM
has anyone heard of or read the book "Maria Pavlovna: A Romanov Grand Duchess in Russia and in Exile" by Marion Mienert? Wondering if it is worth buying :)

I've heard of it. I think it was published in conjuction with Lennart in his last years. I've been trying to get a copy of it for years. It's very hard to get hold of.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 03, 2010, 10:57:33 PM
while browsing on the net I stumbled across this wedding icon of Marie Pavlovna's and thoght it might interest people here..

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=W03831&live_lot_id=218

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Belochka on January 03, 2010, 11:22:11 PM
It is listed on Amazon but it is not in stock. I had never heard of it until yesterday. It was written in 2004

Perhaps this book had a very small print run?  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 03, 2010, 11:58:50 PM
has anyone heard of or read the book "Maria Pavlovna: A Romanov Grand Duchess in Russia and in Exile" by Marion Mienert? Wondering if it is worth buying :)

I have found a copy for $ 80 from Swaziland at Abebooks.com. Texted is in German.

To much for my blood at the moment.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 04, 2010, 12:01:32 AM
has anyone heard of or read the book "Maria Pavlovna: A Romanov Grand Duchess in Russia and in Exile" by Marion Mienert? Wondering if it is worth buying :)

I have found a copy for $ 80 from Swaziland at Abebooks.com. Texted is in German.

To much for my blood at the moment.

I've been able to find German copies too...alas I don't read German. I've always seen the title in english in biblographies, but I wonder these days if perhaps there may be only a German language edition as I've never found an english language copy for sale and that authors translated the title from German for their bilographies.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 04, 2010, 07:44:30 AM
It is listed on Amazon but it is not in stock. I had never heard of it until yesterday. It was written in 2004

I've seen a copy on the site of the publishing house. I'd buy it but I don't know German and have a very good Russian bio on GDss.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 04, 2010, 12:02:09 PM
I finished reading "A Princess in Exile" by the Grand Duchess Maria and really enjoyed it and also just finished "Education of a Princess" ... her earlier years and it was so insightful... You get first hand information on her life with "Ella" as her stepmother and also of "Tsarina Alexandra" ... first hand personal insights of  conversations that took place that reveiled the personalities of and relationships/conversations  of Ella and Alexa, that are not written in any other book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 04, 2010, 04:52:02 PM
I finished reading "A Princess in Exile" by the Grand Duchess Maria and really enjoyed it and also just finished "Education of a Princess" ... her earlier years and it was so insightful... You get first hand information on her life with "Ella" as her stepmother and also of "Tsarina Alexandra" ... first hand personal insights of  conversations that took place that reveiled the personalities of and relationships/conversations  of Ella and Alexa, that are not written in any other book.

Very true. What ever you may think about Marie, she write some very readable books full of insights on the Romanovs you are hard pressed to find elsewhere. Her books are still constantly used by scholars or anyone writing about the Romanovs and you see her referenced in many other books as an original source of Romanov information.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2010, 05:59:04 PM
Yes. Although Marie's portrait of Ella may be deemed harsh by some. Marie's Aunt Greek Minny (Grand Duchess George of Russia) thought Marie was a bit spoilt and tend to support Ella.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 05, 2010, 08:51:24 AM
Reading Education of a Princess Maria Grand Duchess, Marie wrote that when Ella took her and her brother in to foster them, Ella was very unaffectionate to her and admitted only after Ella's husband was murdered that she was a little jealous of her husbands attention/affection toward Marie. At that time Ella let her walls down and drew closer to Maria and they ended up being close.

I think Maria as a little girl was heartbroken .... no mother...then Ella was so distant, not affectionate w/ her. I think Maria suffered alot with having to give up her son to her x-husband Prince of Sweden.   Also, she had fits of nervousness and the Queen of Sweden hired a doctor when they (Maria and her) were vacationing in Capri, Italy. He was assigned to her and it was diagnosed she would have to spend 6 months a year on Capri.... this was without her son. Eventually the doctor flew to Russia to meet with Ella to discuss Maria... Maria found out the Dr. left Capri and went to Russia and she finally got enouch nerve to stop the portrait picture this Dr. was painting of her as being helpless and not stable.   She left Capri and went to her father.   It turned out that Ella did not believe this Doctor and his report. Maria leaves her husband the Prince of Sweden shortly thereafter, not being able to take her son with.

She had lots of heartbreak in her life.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 05, 2010, 08:59:18 AM
#358 Eric:  I ordered this book through our library system. It was not available at my library and it was a 6weeks wait so I just drove to
the next town and checked out both books that Maria wrote.... The Education of a Princess is her biography from birth through her
escaping Russia ... A Princess in Exile  is her life from her departure from Russia to 1931. It is very interesting and gives you insight to
her contact with other Russian relatives that also left Russia.

I have also gotten other books from the library Nicholas and Natasha and others so it is great to be able to do this.  I also loved The Last
Grand Duchess Olga (Nicholas's sisters) biography ...full of inside stories not read before.

THE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN/PUBLISHED IN ENGLISH..
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 01:42:42 PM
Well...Ella was always very nice with children (like with Greek Minny & Felix Yussopov) and had no problems with Dimitri. Maria was a bit spoilt due to the fact that people felt sorry for her having no mother and a distant father (who cared more about his mistress than his own children). Serge wanted to raise his brother's family, but nobody seem to ask if Ellawanted to have two children in close proximity. The children act as a sore reminder that she cannot have any of her own (although the fault may not necessary lie with her). With Serge spoiling the children, so Ella had no choice but to discipline them. It is something that tringed with jealousy that Ella later apologize for. Yes Marie had her heartbreaks, but she was responsible for making bad choices in men. She could hardly blame Ella for her later choices.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 05, 2010, 06:14:45 PM
Eric, in Maria's biogrpahy, Ella repents and tells Maria she is sorry for (paraphrasing) pushing her into marrying the Prince. In hind sight, she realized Maria was not ready for marriage. It was rather arranged for her to marry the Prince.

"In St. Petersburg I saw Aunt Ella, who happended to be visiting her sister the Empress at Tsarskoe-Selo. It was a meeting that I rather dreaded, but there was no cause for fear. Dr. M's visit to Moscow (reporting that Ella had kidney problems which later in Paris was dispelled by a doctor along with telling Ella that Maria had a nervous condition which she should spend 6 months a year in Capri without her son) had produced on my aunt the opposite effect from that which he intended. His proprietary way of speaking about me and my future had displeased her, she said, and had so aroused her suspicion that she was preparing to write me and warn me when she heard that I was on my way to Paris. My aunt was, in a word, both understanding and sympathetic; she reproached me with nothing and went so far as to deplore the haste she had shown to see me married. From this time forth, we were intimates and got on wonderfully together."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 06:44:59 PM
Well do remember that this is Marie's version of events. I think Ella was sad that Marie thought she was pushed into it, but Ella only required her to make up her mind quickly. She did not say marry or else...It was Irene who told Marie that if she chicken out, it would kill Ella. Not the same at all. I believe Ella wanted to settle Marie before she take the veil. In her letters to Wilhelm, she was very happy planning the wedding and can't wait to get a place of her own.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 05, 2010, 08:50:56 PM
In her letters to Wilhelm, she was very happy planning the wedding and can't wait to get a place of her own.

Are these letters published in english?

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 05, 2010, 10:35:27 PM
Duchess Maria's account (book: Education of a Princess)

The prince came to Moscow for Chiristmas. The holidays, spent from morning till night side by side, proved difficult. We really ahd nothing to say to each other. It seemed that my fiance had become  to me a stranger - a stranger, however, to whom I was bound. Soon I regarded him almost with hostility. His rare caresses were disagreeable to me. The situation was becoming intoleragle. I shivered to contemplate this impasse into which I had been led.

Preparations for the marriage took their course without my being able to feel any pleasure or interest in them. It seemed to me that in spite of his (Prince) more liberal education, the Prince lacked initiative almost in the same measure as I, others thought and decided for him, just as they did for me.
What would come of that when we were married? How would we use our new independence? I was moved to the point of remorse because of this man, so young and apparently so confident, hoping to create a home with me and find happiness in it. I was offering him a heart almost empty, and was using him, in a sense, only to obtain my freedom.

My aunt Ella submitted to having an operation and during the time of her illness she was going to live in the house that she had prepared as a hospital. It was quite serious operation.  My aunts absence made the execution of my project easier. I wrote the Prince and gave him the reasons for wishing to break the engagement. A few days later I received a charming reply; he begged me to think carefully before making a decsion which would cause him great pain.  The genuine sincerity of feeling that animated his letter moved me deeply but failed to alter my decision and I was just on the point of more decisive action when, one morning, the Princess Irene of Prussia, who had come to nurse her sister, burst into my room. It was she who had taken the preliminary steps; consequently it was she who first had been informed from Sweden of my bid for independence.

Very gently, yet with great firmness, she explained to me that it was impossible at present to reverse an agreement the execution of which was of political importance. All arrangements had been made;actual preparations begun; the date was set. The scandal, she said, gently, would be too great.

Weeping, I tried to explain to her my reasons and my fears; patiently, she argued to show me their absurdity. As a final argument she told me that my decision would kill my aunt, and if I presisted in it I must shoulder the entire responsibility. This assertion confounded me. Seeing that I was beginning to weaken, the Princess made me promise to do nothing rashly; and left me in an indescribable state of mind. The whole thing was too much for me, and I had no one competent to help me. My aunt Ella, whose condition was satisfactory, was nevertheless still weak; the shock for all I knew, might really proved fatal. What could I do? I gave in.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 06, 2010, 02:09:55 AM
That is the genius of Marie's memoirs. It all sounds so plausable and true. It's just when you hear different things from other primary sources about her you begin to wonder if history is being rewritten to some extent, which is why I'd love to read a properly researched biography of her.



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: CountessKate on January 06, 2010, 04:57:18 AM
Yes, I read them many years ago and was absolutely convinced Ella and Irene were bullying villains.  It took me a while to realise that there might be a different perspective on the matter!  I've subsequently wondered whether Maria was the sort of person who genuinely believed she was the trembling victim of persecution, and her sincerity transmits itself so strongly to the reader that one buys into what is a fair amount of fantasy. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 06, 2010, 06:18:30 AM
In her letters to Wilhelm, she was very happy planning the wedding and can't wait to get a place of her own.

Are these letters published in english?



These letters as I know are in possession of the late Lennart Bernadotte family. I read a translation of some of them in a Russian bio of GDss MP.
All I can say after the reading that she does sound happy but at the same time the words sound forced and non-natural as if she tried to convince herself she would be happy.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 06, 2010, 10:53:10 AM
I think Marie regret the fact that she married young and not in love, like any spoiled girl forced to do something she didn't like; she did her duty as a Grand Duchess to marry a man of Royal blood status. and she blamed Ella and Irene and not bering herself that is her own fault as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 11:39:53 AM
I believe Ella tried to do her duty as guardian to Marie. After all Marie Coburg (Ella's sister-in-law) believe that girls should be married early and before they have ideas of their own. Had Marie Paulovna really hated Wilhelm of Sweden, she could have said no. She was actually confused and do not know what she wanted (she never seemed to know as her later relationships with men had shown). The first marriage was actually not bad for Marie. It gave her a standing in one of the most stable monarchies in Europe. Even after her divorce, the King & the Swedish Royal Family continued to give Marie a hand when her situation in exile became desperate. Had she remained with Wilhelm, she would have had ahome and comfortable life that would have been the envy of her cousins. Yet she want to go her own way...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Jessamy on January 06, 2010, 01:23:20 PM
I don't think she was madly in love with Wilhelm; they didn't seem to have a passionate marriage like Nicky and Alix. The impression I got from readiing "Education of a Princess" is that SHE was the one who was trying to do her duty by contracting a good marriage. Perhaps she was also happy to have some attention.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:36:31 PM
Well...Romantic love is not the call of the day in Royal Marriages, rather they were the exception. Marie liked Wilhelm enough to give marriage a go, they seemed happy at first in Sweden. Sadly Marie's lack of duty (as a royal and a mother) made her restless and like a ship without a destination in life.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Jessamy on January 06, 2010, 03:41:49 PM
Yes, I agree that she definitely had a lack of sense of duty towards her marriage and motherhood.  I don't think she could have taken her son with her even if she wanted to though as women at that time had no rights to their children in cases of divorce, am I correct?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on January 06, 2010, 04:53:53 PM
In the 19th century for most women, unless you had an independant fortune, you NEEDED to marry so you would have a roof over your head and have an income, and to re-marry straight away should your husband die. It was a harsh world for the spinster and the law did not support independent women (eg getting loans and eduction, things we take for granted today).  This no doubt is one of the reasons that influenced Ella to try and marry Marie early - along with her planned convent retirement. Marie had enough sense of duty to go through with the marriage, but not enough to stick it out when she wasn't happy in it.



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 05:37:13 PM
I think Marie was too spoilt to know how to keep a relationship. Her father deserted her in favor of his mistress (whom he married). Uncle Serge who spoilt her died tragically. If Wilhelm was not the best, he certainly was not the bottom of the barrel. Marie's later relationship revealed her choice of men to be wanting (unlike her cousin Olga Alexandrovna, who had a happy married life in Denmark). Only her brother and son Lennart were the constant males in her life. That is sad.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 06, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
I think Marie was too spoilt to know how to keep a relationship. Her father deserted her in favor of his mistress (whom he married). Uncle Serge who spoilt her died tragically. If Wilhelm was not the best, he certainly was not the bottom of the barrel. Marie's later relationship revealed her choice of men to be wanting (unlike her cousin Olga Alexandrovna, who had a happy married life in Denmark). Only her brother and son Lennart were the constant males in her life. That is sad.

Not even Lennart was a constant in her life. Didnt he say in his memoirs that he barely knew his mother?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
He did came to her rescue when she had trouble with her finances...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 06, 2010, 08:06:32 PM
he did? when? i didn't know
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 09:57:18 PM
I think he lived with her for awhile. Most certainly the Swedish Royal Family shell out money to Marie, when her finances were in dire straits.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on January 14, 2010, 10:10:06 AM
what's happened to GD Maria's second husband after they divorced in 1924 ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 14, 2010, 03:25:33 PM
Don't know too much about that. That is why I say a book on her is needed to tie up the loose ends.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 14, 2010, 11:44:33 PM
what's happened to GD Maria's second husband after they divorced in 1924 ?

He went to USA, married second time and had 2 children.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Teddy on January 15, 2010, 04:40:14 AM
I can't remember that I've seen a picture of the prince.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 15, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
Me too. I do not remember a photo of him in Marie's bio as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 15, 2010, 12:07:25 PM
No, theres no photo of Serge in her memoirs. nor I can remember. I have seen a photo of him with Marie , its somewhere on this forum.

I think their relationship was built out of lust. Many young women fall in love easy, they met during the war, married and had a son whom died in infancy. It was possibly the death of their child and the lust running out, which ended in divorced. I think Marie was sadden for the death of her father, halfbrother and son, and the abandon of her first born in Sweden, she seemed to not even try to love anyone else, expt her brother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 15, 2010, 12:54:05 PM
Yes. I think her father Paval's abandonment of her & her brother in favour of his mistress left a void in her life. Serge was loving but more spoil than love. Ella had her demons (jealousy & sadness of not able to concieve for whatever reason) and unable to give Marie the kind of assurance she needed. Even without Ella's push, I don't think Marie would have made a good marriage by herself. I wonder if she was able to bond emotionally with her two half-sisters ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 15, 2010, 01:10:38 PM
Young Maria

(http://i50.tinypic.com/b7l2l5.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 15, 2010, 03:20:56 PM
Yes. I think her father Paval's abandonment of her & her brother in favour of his mistress left a void in her life. Serge was loving but more spoil than love. Ella had her demons (jealousy & sadness of not able to concieve for whatever reason) and unable to give Marie the kind of assurance she needed. Even without Ella's push, I don't think Marie would have made a good marriage by herself. I wonder if she was able to bond emotionally with her two half-sisters ?

Possibly they got along, but not close.
 Irina and Natalia spent most of their childhood in France not with Marie. Plus the age gap between Marie and Irina is quite big.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 15, 2010, 03:56:44 PM
Katenka - wonderful and new to me image! I have to admit I find Maria very beautiful. I think she resembled Olga and Vera Konstantinovna in a way.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on January 15, 2010, 04:52:50 PM
No, theres no photo of Serge in her memoirs. nor I can remember. I have seen a photo of him with Marie , its somewhere on this forum.


There were some photos of them in some magazines from the period when they were living in Paris. I know I have 1 or 2, I'll try to find them but they're on my old computer and I use my laptop now. : )
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 15, 2010, 06:09:48 PM
Yes. I think her father Paval's abandonment of her & her brother in favour of his mistress left a void in her life. Serge was loving but more spoil than love. Ella had her demons (jealousy & sadness of not able to concieve for whatever reason) and unable to give Marie the kind of assurance she needed. Even without Ella's push, I don't think Marie would have made a good marriage by herself. I wonder if she was able to bond emotionally with her two half-sisters ?

Possibly they got along, but not close.
 Irina and Natalia spent most of their childhood in France not with Marie. Plus the age gap between Marie and Irina is quite big.

Yes I think it was not until after the Revolution that Marie saw much of Irina and Natasha, with N involved in fashion industry as a model and Marie so closely involved with Chanel, they worked the same circuit when they were all adults
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 16, 2010, 02:55:33 AM
No, theres no photo of Serge in her memoirs. nor I can remember. I have seen a photo of him with Marie , its somewhere on this forum.



I think I had posted Maria's photo with her husband somewhere in the Forums, the picture was quite blurry and from Russian bio on her.

Also,here, in this topic, just some pages before, Nadya_Arapov had posted Sergei's photo:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=723.135 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=723.135)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2010, 11:11:18 AM
Yes. It would be easy for Marie & Natasha to be close since they were both in Fashion. I don't think Marie was close to her stepmother though.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sara Araújo on January 17, 2010, 10:01:45 AM
I don't think Maria and her step-sisters were very close, but they did meet sometimes before the revolution according to her memoires quoted on Jean-Noel Liaut's biography of Natalie:

"My father and stepmother lived a quiet life as common citizens, doing what they wanted to do. (...) It was for me great fun to forget etiquette for two to three weeks while I was on vacation with them. It was also a joy to belong to that wonderful family from time to time because they were truly happy."

"When I arrived for dinner, the children were impatient. (...) Next to my father was an empty chair, belonging to his wife, and it would remain so for most of the meal. My stepmother was never able to be ready on time. My father ended up accepting it. (...) The dinner proceed. The girls, siting on both sides of their governess, were pretending to be wise men. Volodia, my half-brother, was making much noise and countless questions. It was useless to make a conversion or to impose silence."

Apparently she tried to introduce both her half-sisters to the social circles of Paris, but they didn't feel ready to do it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Labuanbajo on January 20, 2010, 03:22:48 AM

I found this old nes story on a web site called:

http://hollywoodheyday.blogspot.com/



From Luella O. Parsons:


Try to find Joan Crawford for the next two weeks. She has finished her last picture and she is taking a vacation and where she’s going only two or three people know, and they’re not telling. When Joan returns, she will be handed “The Education of a Princess” to read. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer has bought the screen rights to this interesting story by Grand Duchess Maria of Russia and we are told it’s for Joan.

Her imperial highness, the author, is well known and liked in Hollywood. She hasn’t let the tragedies of her life, and they have been many, affect her sense of humor.

Ansel Wichfeld, who sold M-G-M the grand duchess’ first book, is in Hollywood now, transacting business and selling other plays and novels.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 20, 2010, 10:36:09 AM
I don't think Maria and her stepsisters

Actally, Irina and Natalia are Marie's half-sisters. They have the same father.

Marie's step-brother and step-sisters' are Princess Paley's children from her first marriage, The von Pistohlkors Children- Alexander, Olga, and Marianna.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on January 20, 2010, 10:41:41 AM
There is frequent (general) confusion between half-blood and step-siblings.

A person and his half-brother or half-sister have one natural parent in common, so that Marie Pavlovna and the Paleys were half-siblings, having the same father.

A step relationship involves marriage only. Alexander and Marianne von Pistolkors were Olga Paley's children by her first marriage, so step-siblings to Marie and Dimitri, but half-siblings to the Paleys through their mother.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 20, 2010, 10:51:43 AM

I found this old nes story on a web site called:

http://hollywoodheyday.blogspot.com/



From Luella O. Parsons:


Try to find Joan Crawford for the next two weeks. She has finished her last picture and she is taking a vacation and where she’s going only two or three people know, and they’re not telling. When Joan returns, she will be handed “The Education of a Princess” to read. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer has bought the screen rights to this interesting story by Grand Duchess Maria of Russia and we are told it’s for Joan.

Her imperial highness, the author, is well known and liked in Hollywood. She hasn’t let the tragedies of her life, and they have been many, affect her sense of humor.

Ansel Wichfeld, who sold M-G-M the grand duchess’ first book, is in Hollywood now, transacting business and selling other plays and novels.




hm I wonder if this is true, why didn't they make the film?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 20, 2010, 06:41:44 PM
I don't think I would trust too much on the gossip of Laoula Parsons (or her rival Hedda Hopper) who frequently invent stories for her readers.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 20, 2010, 09:59:56 PM
Maria in Stockholm, 1908:


http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2328228470094285158LYPzPy
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2010, 04:15:33 PM
She is with Princess Gustav of Sweden (mother of Marta of Norway).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 27, 2010, 04:50:14 PM
You mean princess Ingeborg of Sweden nee princess od Denmark?. In that case is princess KARL of Sweden
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2010, 04:53:36 PM
Yes. Thanks for the correction. It was Ingeborg right ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 27, 2010, 05:40:40 PM
Yes, then, princess Gustav was Margaret of Connaught ;-)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 28, 2010, 09:42:44 PM
I love the name Gustav! <3 

Did Marie got along with Daisy (the Crown Princess) at all? I read that Marie was on a sports team with Daisy as well?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 29, 2010, 12:01:41 AM

Did Marie got along with Daisy (the Crown Princess) at all? I read that Marie was on a sports team with Daisy as well?

They didn't get along wellas the contemporaries said. Maria thought too much of herself and considered Margareth a dull and foolish woman.
But it was Margareth who helped at Maria's childbirth and supported her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 29, 2010, 01:16:54 AM
Yeah, I can see that happened. Marie was a self-centered snob and Daisy was a sweetheart, yeah i can see them not really getting along, but sure it was somewhat of a friendship on Daisy's part.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 29, 2010, 11:51:51 AM
As I often believe Marie was not an easy woman to get along with. It is my belief (again) that her situation with Ella should be taken with a grain of salt, and the words of her Aunt Grand Duchess George remembered. I got an idea that Marie did not know what she wanted out of life, she dallied from different men and careers (writer, dress designer...etc). In the end she did not attained her potentical as a princess or a woman. Her early loss of mother and father (through his ill-advised marriage) and revolution most certainly played a part, but she evidently did not know how to make the best of things in a bad situation, unlike the more practical and optimistic Grand Duchess Olga Alexandovna.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 29, 2010, 12:02:02 PM
Maria and Wilhelm

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2h5mzxj.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on January 29, 2010, 05:23:05 PM
I love Maria's hat... Maria is very pretty...when I look at her I see the resemblance of the Actress...Drew Barrymore!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 29, 2010, 07:40:50 PM
She can definitely play her...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 30, 2010, 02:27:44 AM
She can definitely play her...

You definitely know everything.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 30, 2010, 02:34:57 AM
As I often believe Marie was not an easy woman to get along with. It is my belief (again) that her situation with Ella should be taken with a grain of salt, and the words of her Aunt Grand Duchess George remembered. I got an idea that Marie did not know what she wanted out of life, she dallied from different men and careers (writer, dress designer...etc). In the end she did not attained her potentical as a princess or a woman. Her early loss of mother and father (through his ill-advised marriage) and revolution most certainly played a part, but she evidently did not know how to make the best of things in a bad situation, unlike the more practical and optimistic Grand Duchess Olga Alexandovna.

You always compare Maria Pavlovna with Olga Alexandrovna. I repeat and will repeat that such comparing is not correct due to their education, characters and lives.

All what you said you had said so many times in many threads (about Maria Pavlovna, about GDss Elizaveta Fedorovna and so on). Reading you someone can imagine not a brave Grand Duchess who was a real survivor (in spite of her complexed character) but a total loser who ruined all her life and  lives of her relatives. But she was not a loser and a brat as you often call her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: SweetAngels on January 30, 2010, 02:45:44 AM
I not a big fan of Maria Pavlovna and I will admit it because I don't know who she was but from read about her I can't see her as a brat.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on January 30, 2010, 05:20:26 AM
I don't think it's improper to make comparisons between Olga Alexandrovna and Marie Pavlovna, given that there were only eight years between them, and both had to cope with serious vicissitudes, not least exile and the deaths of close relations at the hands of the Bolsheviks.

However, I do think it improper to make comparisons between Marie Pavlovna and Margaret of Sweden, as their lives were quite different and Margaret was never tested by adversity in the way that Marie was. Margaret grew up in a settled family, married for love, had a contented marriage and lived in a politically peaceful country right up to her premature death. By contrast, Marie never knew her mother, her father ran off with his mistress, for whatever reason Ella was a less than satisfactory mother substitute, Serge was blown up. Then her first marriage was unsatisfactory, her country fell into violent revolution, her father was killed, she had to flee into exile. All before she was 30.  Hardly surprising that she never really settled to anything in adult life.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 30, 2010, 12:20:40 PM
I am not saying that Marie was a brat. It is just that she wasn't easy to get along with. Most people who met Ella were full of praises of her kindness, beauty and generiousity. The same cannot be said not Marie (which is true). She was no saint, and is a loser in life because she cannot stick to anything it seems for long. That put her blame on Serge & especially Ella on shaky ground due to her own unsettling nature. It is easy to feel sorry for her being abandoned by her father & mother (through death). But it is what you do with your life that counts. To me she seems to put no responsibility in her life and just that beacuse I was born into this situation, I am allowed to fail and you all have to be sorry for me. Marie was born in the lap of luxury and married into the most stable Royal Families in Europe (it still is). Had she played her part of wife to Wilhelm and mother to Lennart, her life in Sweden could have been much more rewarding. Marie could also have taken a leaf out of Ella's book and work for the poor people in Sweden (her adopted country) and make a success out of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 30, 2010, 03:17:25 PM
I am not saying that Marie was a brat. It is just that she wasn't easy to get along with. Most people who met Ella were full of praises of her kindness, beauty and generiousity. The same cannot be said not Marie (which is true). She was no saint, and is a loser in life because she cannot stick to anything it seems for long. That put her blame on Serge & especially Ella on shaky ground due to her own unsettling nature. It is easy to feel sorry for her being abandoned by her father & mother (through death). But it is what you do with your life that counts. To me she seems to put no responsibility in her life and just that beacuse I was born into this situation, I am allowed to fail and you all have to be sorry for me. Marie was born in the lap of luxury and married into the most stable Royal Families in Europe (it still is). Had she played her part of wife to Wilhelm and mother to Lennart, her life in Sweden could have been much more rewarding. Marie could also have taken a leaf out of Ella's book and work for the poor people in Sweden (her adopted country) and make a success out of it.

But she made a life for herself. She created her own beading embroidery business, she tried to please her aunt by marrying Wilhelm but in the end she needed more out of life. Are you really judging her for being unhappy in marriage? She tried to follow what made her truly happy, what more can you ask for from life. Perhaps she had her moments of indulgence and self-pity but you cannot deny she was an independent woman who tried to make a life for herself.
Maria was not Ella, they were entirely different. It is hardly fair to say she would have only been a success had she been like Ella, she tried to please Ella and it made her deeply unhappy. Sometimes it is just a clash.
It is not success that makes a person, but effort
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on January 31, 2010, 09:52:31 AM
'Most people who met Ella were full of praises of her kindness, beauty and generiousity.'

I am proceeding carefully because I am one of these contrary people who, when told that someone was a wonderful person, immediately start thinking, 'Were they as great as all that?' All the praise I read for Ella has just that effect on me, especially the line of reasoning which seems to say, 'She was beautiful, therefore she was a wonderful person.'

I can't help thinking that the fact Ella died in horrible circumstances - and she was beautiful - has led to a degree of idealisation. I don't dislike her, but I'm coming to think that she was a more complex and more interesting figure than the rose-tinted view suggests.

Now, Eric, were that those you refer to who met Ella writing before or after her death? If after, then we have to be careful - surely they are unlikely to say anything unfavourable about her.

My other contrariness is a certain fondness for the underdog, so I end up feeling sorry for Marie Pavlovna, and, indeed, for Dimitri, who had the same very unsettled early life and also had an unfulfilled life.


Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 31, 2010, 10:39:06 AM
Actually I have read a rather unfavourable description of Ella´s character in "My Empress" by Marfa Mouchanova. Even though that book is highly inacurate and till this day we don´t know who was hiding behind theficitonal name of Mouchanova, it had to be somebody from the court. She (or maybe even he) wrote following:

"The only person whom she (Alexandra) saw intimately, and who came in time to acquire a considerable influence over her, was her sister, the Grand Duchess Elizabeth, of whom she had stood more or less in awe during her girlish days, and who abused the privileges due to her as the Empress' senior. And the Grand Duchess was not a wise mentor for the impressionable, impidsive woman who had been raised by destiny to the throne of All the Russias."

"At the risk of rousing a storm of indignation against me, I must say that one of the misfortunes of the Czarina was to have in Russia an elder sister already married to a Russian Grand Duke. I know that it is an established legend that the Grand Duchess Elizabeth is a saint, who ought to have been canonised in her lifetime. But, in reality, things were not as represented. The Grand Duchess was a very ambitious woman, and moreover one who cared for nothing and for nobody in the world with the exception of her own self. In spite of the report that her marriage was a very miserable one, she was on the contrary perfectly happy with her husband, who was quite content to let her live her own life, and who never interfered with anything it might please her to do. When he was appointed Governor Greneral of Moscow, she hastened to go over to the Greek Church, in order to win for herself popularity in the ancient capital of the Russian Czars and to a certain extent she succeeded in doing so."

There are more quotes, in fact a whole chapter on her. Now - I don´t believe Marfa Mouchanova, but it made me think of Ella as more complex person.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2010, 11:38:12 AM
I am not saying that Marie was a brat.

You said that not once, at other threads. Should I dig out it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2010, 03:41:02 PM
I do not mean that she was a brat in the sense we do today. Most certainly you cannot call her a saint (that I do challenge you). A person with three failed relationships can hardly be called a success in life. period ! She is definitely a LOSER and I stand by what I think. Most of us have less material goods than her and we all make good with our circumstances. Not Marie ! In the age of arranged marriages, her case was hardly impressive. Her husband Wilhelm was not a wife-beater or abused her (verbally or physically) and seemed a normal fellow (the same cannot be said of Marie's Uncle Serge). The fact is not that she was a talented person, but she lacked the concentration and determination to sit out the storm but chosen to check out at the early symtoms of a diffucult situation. She was a lousy wife and absent mother to her only son Lennart. I think she was very lucky that Ella made that match for her since the Swedish Royal Family did come to her rescue when her finances became dire.

As for "My Empress" most serious books on the Romanovs do not use it as a reliable source. that is my opinion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 31, 2010, 05:09:59 PM
As for "My Empress" most serious books on the Romanovs do not use it as a reliable source. that is my opinion.

Of course. I agree about that. BUT from historical point of view it shows very well how SOMEBODY saw the people back then. Subjective, yes, but definitely interesting and showing that not even Ella was loved by everybody.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2010, 07:38:07 PM
Yes. Even Ella was not loved by Miechen as she happen to offend her in some way. But the fact is that Ella was loved by many (The chapter by Zoya's was "Everybody fell in love with Ella."). Her later actions was considered even saintly, so she did have a good reputation.

It is not that I do not sympathize with Marie's troubles (parents, adoption and revolution), but she also had many things going for her. Her beauty, youth, fortune, a stable home in Sweden and a son to care and love. Yet, Marie felt restless enough to throw caution in the wind and went on her own way. If she felt her marriage was forced by Ella (or to please her). her later relationships with other men were not. She exerised poor judgement when she tried to built her own clothing company (her embroidery was good, but her start was actually given by Coco Channel, who did it as a favour to her brother Dimitri). With no head for business, her foray was doom to failure (as to other Romanov business ventures). It is sad to see someone who had so much (fortune & talent) to fail so spectacularly in life. That is why I found her whinning and the whole blame game irratable.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on January 31, 2010, 10:53:36 PM
Yes. Even Ella was not loved by Miechen as she happen to offend her in some way. But the fact is that Ella was loved by many (The chapter by Zoya's was "Everybody fell in love with Ella."). Her later actions was considered even saintly, so she did have a good reputation.

It is not that I do not sympathize with Marie's troubles (parents, adoption and revolution), but she also had many things going for her. Her beauty, youth, fortune, a stable home in Sweden and a son to care and love. Yet, Marie felt restless enough to throw caution in the wind and went on her own way. If she felt her marriage was forced by Ella (or to please her). her later relationships with other men were not. She exerised poor judgement when she tried to built her own clothing company (her embroidery was good, but her start was actually given by Coco Channel, who did it as a favour to her brother Dimitri). With no head for business, her foray was doom to failure (as to other Romanov business ventures). It is sad to see someone who had so much (fortune & talent) to fail so spectacularly in life. That is why I found her whinning and the whole blame game irratable.


I do agree with you there. Maria quite clearly pitied herself.
I don't believe she was a loser though. I think she tried, and when her ventures fell through, there was someone else to blame in her eyes.
Many women have relationships that do not work out. I don't really factor that into my opinion of Maria.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 01, 2010, 12:32:12 AM
I do not mean that she was a brat in the sense we do today. Most certainly you cannot call her a saint (that I do challenge you). A person with three failed relationships can hardly be called a success in life. period ! She is definitely a LOSER and I stand by what I think. Most of us have less material goods than her and we all make good with our circumstances. Not Marie ! In the age of arranged marriages, her case was hardly impressive. Her husband Wilhelm was not a wife-beater or abused her (verbally or physically) and seemed a normal fellow (the same cannot be said of Marie's Uncle Serge). The fact is not that she was a talented person, but she lacked the concentration and determination to sit out the storm but chosen to check out at the early symtoms of a diffucult situation. She was a lousy wife and absent mother to her only son Lennart. I think she was very lucky that Ella made that match for her since the Swedish Royal Family did come to her rescue when her finances became dire.



I don't call her a saint or something like. But "person with three failed relationships can hardly be called a success in life"??? Eric, do you really think that 3 failed relationships is a reason to call a person a loser? If so, then you don't know anything about human nature and complex ways our life can go, SORRY. Also you are definitely up-to-ears in GDss Elizaveta Fedorovna's "beauty and kindness" as you always turn to her person in any discussion about Maria Pavlovna-younger and ready to praise Elizaveta just to blacken Maria.
Her lack of maternal love is not the reason either to call her a loser, just a bad mother and that's all. Not all women on Earth have maternal feelings.

And in my opinion LOSERS were Royal persons who after all the tumultuous wars or revolution years just folded their hands, groaned as megalomartyrs for the old good days, waiting in vain the return of the gilded cage. Maria Pavlovna didn't give up, she tried to find a way for more interesting and action-packed life as she saw it in her mind.
Yes, she pitied herself, but isn't it a very human feeling for any human being? Especially in her case.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 01, 2010, 10:56:03 AM
It would be more appropriate to call losers the ones who couldn't let the past go, like Kirill holed up in his mansion giving dispatches and behaving as though he was a sovereign
However how is it respectful to call anyone a loser?
In the end we didn't know any of them, and can hardly make such a judgment
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 01, 2010, 11:37:09 AM
Some people think I should not compare Olga Alexandrovna with Maria Paulovna, because she had loving parents and was more balanced. However we all know it has to do with one's attitude towards life. For example Xenia (Olga's sister) never really ajusted to life in exile and had to live on the charity of her English cousins. Olga faced her situation and even welcomed it as a means of living her life to the fullest in her art and children. She was also pushed to an arranged marriage with Peter of Oldenburg, but she never looked back and played the blame game like whinning Marie. You make your decisions and you live by it. Blaming others (in this case Ella) would not make things better. That is the reason I called her a loser. She also went through with it and made a child (Lennart), but chose to neglect her responsibilities. That is not the same as someone without materal instincts. Queen Mary did not have maternal intincts, but one could not accuse her for negecting her responsibility of being a mother. As I said, Marie had youth, beauty, fortune and lots of potential going for her, but messed up her life. Had she took responsibility of her life, it would not have turned out that way.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 02, 2010, 12:03:44 AM

However how is it respectful to call anyone a loser?
In the end we didn't know any of them, and can hardly make such a judgment

Yes, I also think so. Judging people we've ever knew personally as if they were our chums is not correct. That's why I always try not to judge Royals as "black/white" and labell them and I don't pretend I know everything.
But when someone begin to label with obvious subjectivness and aplomb I just can't keep silence.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 02, 2010, 12:48:52 AM
Some people think I should not compare Olga Alexandrovna with Maria Paulovna, because she had loving parents and was more balanced. However we all know it has to do with one's attitude towards life. For example Xenia (Olga's sister) never really ajusted to life in exile and had to live on the charity of her English cousins. Olga faced her situation and even welcomed it as a means of living her life to the fullest in her art and children. She was also pushed to an arranged marriage with Peter of Oldenburg, but she never looked back and played the blame game like whinning Marie. You make your decisions and you live by it. Blaming others (in this case Ella) would not make things better. That is the reason I called her a loser. She also went through with it and made a child (Lennart), but chose to neglect her responsibilities. That is not the same as someone without materal instincts. Queen Mary did not have maternal intincts, but one could not accuse her for negecting her responsibility of being a mother. As I said, Marie had youth, beauty, fortune and lots of potential going for her, but messed up her life. Had she took responsibility of her life, it would not have turned out that way.

So what! Marie tried and since she didn't have a loving childhood like Olga, she become cold and self-centered like any girl whom grow up with the feeling of being unwanted and unloved. but shes not a loser. shame on you.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 01:17:25 PM
No shame. She should be ashamed for deserting her husband and child and went her wild ways. The point is that she had it all and lost it. She was very lucky that the Swedish Royal Family chose to bail her out, otherwise her situation would have been even worse. I agree that I could not keep silent when someone who was so irresponsible as Marie would blame her troubles on Ella. Her aunt who wanted to do her a favour and help her settled safely.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 02, 2010, 01:55:51 PM
No shame. She should be ashamed for deserting her husband and child and went her wild ways. The point is that she had it all and lost it. She was very lucky that the Swedish Royal Family chose to bail her out, otherwise her situation would have been even worse. I agree that I could not keep silent when someone who was so irresponsible as Marie would blame her troubles on Ella. Her aunt who wanted to do her a favour and help her settled safely.

"wild ways"? what wild ways? lots of people get divorce, they are incompatible, you can hardly see someone through your own laws of what is right and wrong if they themselves did not feel that way. all of this is such a harsh and black-and-white way to see someone, when there are so many factors that go into any one decision in a person's life, factors that you will never know about. it is not our place to 'decide' how she was, just to discuss and share the information we have
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 02, 2010, 02:21:11 PM
No shame. She should be ashamed for deserting her husband and child and went her wild ways. The point is that she had it all and lost it. She was very lucky that the Swedish Royal Family chose to bail her out, otherwise her situation would have been even worse. I agree that I could not keep silent when someone who was so irresponsible as Marie would blame her troubles on Ella. Her aunt who wanted to do her a favour and help her settled safely.

She wasn't the first royal woman in the world to leave her family (Victoria Melita, Louise of Saxony, Louise of Tuscany, oh I can go on!), and she possibly thought Lennart was better off living with his father's family, what would have been a little Swedish boy's faith in Russia? whom mother was a Romanov? very Dangerous and his faith would have been in Russia like that of his grandfather and other relatives. Secondly, she wasn't maternal, not all women are... unless you stereotype women?

Not all people like to be helped by someone whom once treated them like crap! remember Ella at the beginning was cold to Marie and wanting nothing to do with her. Then Serge got killed, then Ella was all lovely doubly to Marie which would have been strange for Marie. I myself, treated by my own father like he wanted nothing to do with me while growing up, now since his 55 and lonely wants my attention, its an odd and regretful feeling. so you don't know.

Since most of us here don't agree with you on calling a Grand Duchess a loser and comparing her to a cousin, its better off to keep your harsh opinions to yourself. This isn't the first time you insulted a dead royal and lets remember Grand Duchess Marie was no saint, just a woman whom doesn't know what she wanted in life, and miss a lot out. but calling her a loser, is even insulting to me.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on February 02, 2010, 02:50:36 PM
When Marie Pavlovna left Sweden, would she even have been able to take Lennart with her? He was, after all, a Swedish prince. And as Mandie says, it is entirely possible that Marie thought he would have a better life with his father, grandparents, uncles and aunts in Sweden than in Russia, where the immediate family was confined to Dimitri, Ella with whom Marie didn't get on, and Paul Alexandrovich who preferred his second family.

One of the things we have to remember is that in Marie's day a woman who wasn't maternal did  not have the choice of not having children, unless she remained unmarried. Contraception wasn't that reliable, and even if it had been the expectation was very much that a married woman would produce. Queen Victoria is often criticised for her dislike of childbirth and babies, but nowadays nobody in her position would have nine children! I am not maternal, and decided not to have children (this was one of the reasons my ex-husband and I split up). I have been told times without number, 'You'd feel different about your own,' but I've never wanted to take the risk that I wouldn't (apart from anything else, it wouldn't be fair to the child concerned). Maybe that was the situation with Marie and Lennart. If she just wasn't very interested in him, it was for the best that she left him with his father.   
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 02, 2010, 05:13:15 PM
When Marie Pavlovna left Sweden, would she even have been able to take Lennart with her? He was, after all, a Swedish prince. And as Mandie says, it is entirely possible that Marie thought he would have a better life with his father, grandparents, uncles and aunts in Sweden than in Russia, where the immediate family was confined to Dimitri, Ella with whom Marie didn't get on, and Paul Alexandrovich who preferred his second family.

One of the things we have to remember is that in Marie's day a woman who wasn't maternal did  not have the choice of not having children, unless she remained unmarried. Contraception wasn't that reliable, and even if it had been the expectation was very much that a married woman would produce. Queen Victoria is often criticised for her dislike of childbirth and babies, but nowadays nobody in her position would have nine children! I am not maternal, and decided not to have children (this was one of the reasons my ex-husband and I split up). I have been told times without number, 'You'd feel different about your own,' but I've never wanted to take the risk that I wouldn't (apart from anything else, it wouldn't be fair to the child concerned). Maybe that was the situation with Marie and Lennart. If she just wasn't very interested in him, it was for the best that she left him with his father.   


exactly, they had laws in Sweden not allowing her to raise Lennart if she left Sweden. Lets not assume any decision she made was easy, she clearly had a very complex life
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 05:21:21 PM
I think we must not judge her by the times today. Do remember she lived during the time of arranged marriages and pure love matches were actually rare. Even Alicky when pressed by Queen Victoria to marry Eddie said "if made to do it she would." and added that "but both Eddie and her would be unhappy." Alicky was lucky that her grandmother did not forced the issue like what happened to Princesses Louise & Stepanie of Belgium. Those two were told that who they will marry and obligated to say yes. If even Alicky (who was so strong minded would consider marry Eddie (whom she had no love)), then why would we consider Ella should not make Marie a match with Wilhelm ? In the letters between the engaged couple, Marie sound happy. It was only when it was over than Marie considered being pushed into it by Ella. That is why I think (my opinion) that she was a loser. She do not know what she wanted, but when made a mistake blamed on other people. When does personal responsibility began ? She did made a mess of her life with all that she was given (despite without parents and the revolution). Feeling sorry for somebody and excusing irresponsible behanvior are two different things. I am actually sad for Marie Paulovna since she with her talents (design, languages and a taste for arts and writing) was unable to create a balanced life for herself. She should be pitied and my opinion of her as a loser is not a condemation but a fact. If using that word "loser" offend anybody I apologise for my use of words although not my opinion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 02, 2010, 05:52:24 PM
I think we must not judge her by the times today. Do remember she lived during the time of arranged marriages and pure love matches were actually rare. Even Alicky when pressed by Queen Victoria to marry Eddie said "if made to do it she would." and added that "but both Eddie and her would be unhappy." Alicky was lucky that her grandmother did not forced the issue like what happened to Princesses Louise & Stepanie of Belgium. Those two were told that who they will marry and obligated to say yes. If even Alicky (who was so strong minded would consider marry Eddie (whom she had no love)), then why would we consider Ella should not make Marie a match with Wilhelm ? In the letters between the engaged couple, Marie sound happy. It was only when it was over than Marie considered being pushed into it by Ella. That is why I think (my opinion) that she was a loser. She do not know what she wanted, but when made a mistake blamed on other people. When does personal responsibility began ? She did made a mess of her life with all that she was given (despite without parents and the revolution). Feeling sorry for somebody and excusing irresponsible behanvior are two different things. I am actually sad for Marie Paulovna since she with her talents (design, languages and a taste for arts and writing) was unable to create a balanced life for herself. She should be pitied and my opinion of her as a loser is not a condemation but a fact. If using that word "loser" offend anybody I apologise for my use of words although not my opinion.

so because she sound happy to the person she is arranged to spend the rest of her life with, she has no right to be disillusioned by the marriage or to realize she is not happy? you think she is going to write to her future husband saying, "i am unhappy, i don't know if i like you?" no one, in those times, would ever have done that no matter how they felt inside. doesn't mean it was a rash decision to leave him
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 06:02:26 PM
Of course not. She could say I need more time or do a longer engagement. Princess Alice was betrothed to a Prince of Orange, but the engagement was broken due to his wild behavior. Especially since she lated claimed that she had an ah-ha moment that she knew they were not capatable, Marie could have sought a longer engagement.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 02, 2010, 06:43:22 PM
Yes, she could have. There were lots of things she could have done, if you look at it in hindsight. Makes you wonder, if you were a historical figure, what information the public would have access to, what things they would have no idea of, what would they think you should have done. It's very interesting
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 06:49:54 PM
I think quite a few royals do have long engagements. For example Princess Stephanie of Belgium had a long engagement due to the immaturity of her body for marriage. Marie should of course heard about Stephanie through the chatter of uncles and aunts. There is of course the long engagement of mad Ludwig II and Sophie Charlotte of Bavaria. All happened before her time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on February 02, 2010, 07:13:42 PM
I think Maria resembles Drew Barrymore....I always think of Drew when I see Maria's pics :o)....tee hee
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 02, 2010, 10:02:34 PM
well Ludwig wasn't under as much pressure as Marie I think, he did after all propose to Sophie on his own, and he was the king, it was easy for him to take his time. But yes, there were examples from history if she had chose to look for them

SharonChicago: loads of people on the forum think she looks like Drew Barrymore! I definitely see the resemblance
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 03, 2010, 05:21:23 PM
The problem with Marie is that she does not know what she wanted (that is very showing in a family who know what they want. Like Ella had a vision for the church and allowed nothing to stop her going there). In a more modern situation, she would be allowed to find herself. In the early 20th century, she had no choice but to get married and have children or risk being an old maid (like her cousin Toria). The times then was still arranged marriages, and unfortunately Marie did not have anyone in sight (unlike Nicky who entered his journal "My dream is to marry Alicky"). As Ella was going into church, a candiadate to get her ward settled was needed. So Wilhelm of Sweden entered the picture. Someone Marie liked but not sure if he was the one for her. They married and had a child. It was then she got restless. No information was known why they did not make it. However divorce was not an option for a royal in the cards. Ducky did it and she forever had a "fast" reputation attached to her, Marie Louise's marriage was anulled in Anhalt, but she never considered herself divorced. That is why I said "wild ways" since divorces were not socially acceptable then. Years later Wallis Simpson was still not accepted because she was a divorcee.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: imperial angel on February 10, 2010, 06:17:48 PM
Since she had basically no choice but to leave Lennart in Sweden when she divorced Wilhelm, it's hard to know how maternal she was, truly, although she doesn't seem to have been maternal. Her other child with her second husband, also a boy, died as an infant. But had that child lived, he would likely have been with his mother ( Marie P) more, since his father was a Russian noble, not royalty from another country. She and her second husband divorced, but I think she would have seen more of that son. She doesn't seem to have been all that maternal, but I think we could judge that better if her other son had lived to grow up, she never lived with one of her children when they were growing up. I can't recall how old Lennart was when she divorced Wilhelm off the top of my head, but he was pretty young, I believe. Her marriage with Wilhem was another typical royal marriage, not one like Nicholas and Alexandra's, and it isn't surprising it failed, it wasn't a love match. Her second marriage underwent the stress of the Revolution and the death of a child, and  given those events, it isn't surprising that marriage failed either. I wonder if her son from that marriage had lived, if the marriage would have fallen apart. So I don't think we can judge her on the basis of having a few failed marriages, or of her leaving Lennart in Sweden.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2010, 06:22:51 PM
Two failed marriages, no apparent maternal intinct, plus a poor head for business and not knowing what she wanted makes a loser. I found people here are very generous with their accessment of charecters. There is no apparent reason why her marriages failed. Marie was not sexually or verbally abused or even beaten. Most Royal women at the time would stay married for the security of status and financial stability. Do remember it was the norm for royal marriages not to marry for love. Many royal women had to love the husbands they were given. Marie Feodorovna considered it is better to be dead than divorced. It was fool hardy for Marie to chase after rainbows when she had a husband and child that needed her. I think the great sin of Marie Paulovna was that she does not understand responsibility, and flung herself into situations without thinking the consequenses.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on February 11, 2010, 08:46:27 PM
for Maria i think she got a bit carried away, ever searching, perhaps more used to pursuit than anything else. . .and perhaps she passed by chances to be happy in favor of the thankless possibility of such things, which have their own benefit in validation of a past pain. . .but you cannot say, because she was not abused she had no right to be messed up. she had no steady paternal OR maternal figure (Ella's changing behavior towards her would have confused any child), and too much pity coupled with neglect can do much damage to a child in way of security, pursuit of happiness, and responsibility. I personally think it is absolutely inexcusable to leave your own child, but whether Wilhelm "needed" her is another question, which I cannot judge. I am not so educated on Wilhelm. In any case it is very sad Maria had no maternal instinct, or did not want one, for raising a child might have absolved more than a few of her own wounds
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2010, 09:35:42 PM
I think you cannot blame Ella for ALL Maria Paulovna's failings. Most certainly Marie herself did not present her case when she wrote her memoirs. It gives the impression that she was floating aimlessly through life. Indeed, had the Russian Revolution not happened, she might have found herself gambling her wealth away (like Anastasia, Grand duchess of Mecklenburg) or dating different men like a female version of her Russian Uncles. However even Anastasia stayed within the confines of marriage and only remarried after her husband's death. A more common situation would have been a seperation, but no divorce (like Queen Ena of Spain or Crown Princess Cecilie of Germany). Both women did their duty to their children and tolerated the existance of their husband. That was the way royalty operated then. Marie Paulovna sought to go her own way with disasterous results. She left Lennart motherless and only very late in late when they began to bond again.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on March 04, 2010, 06:55:26 AM
I was wondering, in an ealier posting from 2004 someone had mentioned that Maria was buried on the Island of Maineu (sp) and also her brother was buried there.

They mentioned that Maria's "china and photo's" were also there.  Does that mean that her photo's and china are on display? or they are in her crypt?

I know it was said that her son Lenart lived out his life on that island until he died at age 95.  Just wondering about the china and photo comment made.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sharon Chicago on March 04, 2010, 07:09:53 AM
Svetabel: You always compare Maria Pavlovna with Olga Alexandrovna. I repeat and will repeat that such comparing is not correct due to their education, characters and lives.

I agree with you Svetabel, I see Maria and Olga as being totally different people, different situations/lives.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2010, 09:07:29 AM
I think Marie Paulovna had more going for her than Olga Alexandrovna. She was pretty, talented and had a husband and child. Married to one of the more secure European Royal Families, she managed to land herself in financial ruin and emotionally disatisfied. Olga Alexandrovna was tied to her mother's apron strings and landed herself into a friendship marriage. After her divorce, she was married to the love of her life. Although financially strapped for cash, she manage to have a simple but fulfilling life (family & her art). Both pf them were born grand duchesses and grown up in luxury. The routes they took in life was very different.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on March 04, 2010, 07:00:05 PM
I think Marie Paulovna had more going for her than Olga Alexandrovna. She was pretty, talented and had a husband and child. Married to one of the more secure European Royal Families, she managed to land herself in financial ruin and emotionally disatisfied. Olga Alexandrovna was tied to her mother's apron strings and landed herself into a friendship marriage. After her divorce, she was married to the love of her life. Although financially strapped for cash, she manage to have a simple but fulfilling life (family & her art). Both pf them were born grand duchesses and grown up in luxury. The routes they took in life was very different.

i very much admire the way Olga Alexandrovna handled herself after the Revolution. She was a vary talented artist and lived a private life
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2010, 08:35:14 PM
I am too...However she was not close to Xenia after her mother's death. Marie Paulovna had a close relationship with her brother Dimitri, and it was the longest standing one with a male person (consistanstly longer than either of her husbands or her son).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on March 05, 2010, 03:25:10 AM
Not everybody is close to their siblings. I have no sisters, so can't comment on that relationship from experience, but my brother and I have always been rivals rather than friends..

There were seven years between Xenia and Olga, so they are unlikely to have been close as children. After that, maybe they were just different people.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashdean on March 05, 2010, 12:56:41 PM
I think you cannot blame Ella for ALL Maria Paulovna's failings. Most certainly Marie herself did not present her case when she wrote her memoirs. It gives the impression that she was floating aimlessly through life. Indeed, had the Russian Revolution not happened, she might have found herself gambling her wealth away (like Anastasia, Grand duchess of Mecklenburg) or dating different men like a female version of her Russian Uncles. However even Anastasia stayed within the confines of marriage and only remarried after her husband's death. A more common situation would have been a seperation, but no divorce (like Queen Ena of Spain or Crown Princess Cecilie of Germany). Both women did their duty to their children and tolerated the existance of their husband. That was the way royalty operated then. Marie Paulovna sought to go her own way with disasterous results. She left Lennart motherless and only very late in late when they began to bond again.
Annastasia of Mecklenberg Schwerin DID NOT remarry after her husbands death.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2010, 04:24:13 PM
You are right, however she did created scandal by having a child out of wedlock.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on March 07, 2010, 03:52:30 PM
I didn't think Xenia and Olga were ever particularly close. but most siblings do not have the closeness that Maria and Dmitri have, being the only constant to rely on, as they are passed from family to family etc
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on March 08, 2010, 04:59:21 AM
Agree. Marie and Dimitri were unusually close, due to circumstances.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: matushka on June 26, 2010, 06:24:22 AM
Was Maria Pavlovna in contact with the 2 Paley sisters after the revolution, in exile?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on June 26, 2010, 08:44:19 AM
Was Maria Pavlovna in contact with the 2 Paley sisters after the revolution, in exile?

She was in contact with their mother Olga Paley and obviously from time to time meet her half-sisters.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sara Araújo on June 26, 2010, 01:41:08 PM
She mentioned in her memoirs that she took them to a party once, to help them improve their spirits, but it didn't work out as she hoped. Also, I believe Irina and Natalia were present when she left Paris.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 26, 2010, 03:00:56 PM
I wonder what Marie thought of Natalie's film career ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 26, 2010, 06:04:07 PM
Was Maria Pavlovna in contact with the 2 Paley sisters after the revolution, in exile?

She was in contact with their mother Olga Paley and obviously from time to time meet her half-sisters.

I wonder if Olga care for Marie? that they had some type of love for each other. I know  for a fact that Olga and Dmitri both disliked each other.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on June 27, 2010, 06:19:29 AM
Was Maria Pavlovna in contact with the 2 Paley sisters after the revolution, in exile?

She was in contact with their mother Olga Paley and obviously from time to time meet her half-sisters.

I wonder if Olga care for Marie? that they had some type of love for each other. I know  for a fact that Olga and Dmitri both disliked each other.

Somewhere I read Dmitriy called Olga "Mama".

I think Olga didn't care much for Maria,in her memoirs she mentions Maria once or twice as a background person. Maria herself thought that step-mother liked her...who knows all that now...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 27, 2010, 07:50:45 AM
thats kind of sad.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 28, 2010, 10:51:20 AM
Well I think they liked each other from a distance but definitely not close. Both Olga and Marie were strong charecters themselves.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sasha_Katerina on July 03, 2010, 03:44:22 PM
I read that Dmitry called Olga Paley Mamushka or some such name whenever he visited her. She wrote in her memoirs that he was very knowledgeable, pleasant,  and clever etc. But Dmitry would write letters to the Tsar that were pretty acerbic in nature and basically said he didn't care whether he ever saw them, etc. It's hard to say what either of them thought of each other in honesty, because it seems to me Dmitri would play up some things to make Nicholas laugh, or to agree with him, but would then be very nice to Olga P to her face. But also we keep in mind, people's feelings are not the same all the time, and perhaps their opinions of each other changed quite a bit over time. It would not be difficult to imagine that the woman who essentially took away his father, Dmitry would have mixed and complex feelings about. So I think the same general idea could be applied to Maria as well. I think Maria felt strongly about many people in her life, but this doesn't mean she ever makes up her mind for good about how she feels.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on July 04, 2010, 12:48:24 AM
A new version of the photo of King George of Greece & Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna

(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/47612/2074210720102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2074210720102753164joPGwK)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 04, 2010, 02:06:02 PM
I don't know if they were close or not ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on July 05, 2010, 03:09:52 AM
Did Marie Pavlovna and Dimitri see much of their Greek relations?

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
I think so. Greek Minny mentioned Marie in her memoirs, and she considered her a bit spoiled.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 05, 2010, 05:44:40 PM
I think more in her early years and childhood, mostly two people, her grandmother Queen Olga and young uncle Prince Christopher. Marie also did mention Grand Duchess Helen (whom is also her first cousin) as "Aunt".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 05:59:11 PM
Yes. Since she was her uncle Nicholas's wife and a bit older than she was. Missy also gave Ella the title of Aunt since she married her uncle Serge.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 16, 2010, 08:45:32 AM
As a photographer

(http://i26.tinypic.com/8zqyhk.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on August 14, 2010, 10:22:55 PM
Baby Maria
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/babymariap001-1.jpg)

I have say, GD Maria looks like a very pretty baby in this photo.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
Marie was very pretty and looked very much like her mother in features.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on August 15, 2010, 04:02:44 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/mariap001-1.jpg)
GD Maria
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on August 28, 2010, 08:42:32 AM
Marie and Dimitri

(http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/13079/2922041050102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2922041050102753164VxEJYN)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2010, 08:44:42 AM
Lovely ! Where is this taken ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on August 29, 2010, 12:27:25 AM
Lovely ! Where is this taken ?

St-Petersburg.1914
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2010, 01:07:10 AM
Thanks. Dimtri looked terrible.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olgasha on August 30, 2010, 02:29:58 AM

He had tuberculosis. I read about it in 'Michael & Natasha' by Crawfords.

I read that Maria Pavlovna also visited (with her brother) GD Michael's house in Gatchina during the war - can anybody tell me is that true?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2010, 07:26:25 AM
He may well have since Dimitri knew GD Michael's morganetic wife Olga Countess Brassova very well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Teddy on August 31, 2010, 05:23:13 AM
He may well have since Dimitri knew GD Michael's morganetic wife Olga Countess Brassova very well.

The Countess Brassova's name was not Olga, but Natalia!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on August 31, 2010, 05:49:35 AM
It was Dimitri's stepmother, Princess Paley, who was called Olga.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2010, 07:52:02 AM
Sorry I mixed up the two. Yes Dimitri knew Natasha well...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olgasha on September 29, 2010, 02:41:54 AM
Maria's son, Prince Lennart
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/Jan-Maarten2/indetuin.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on September 30, 2010, 10:12:13 PM
Maria in 1930s

(http://www.picatom.com/1m/%20%20%20_-99-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1m/%20%20%20_-99.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on September 30, 2010, 10:14:08 PM
As a girl

(http://www.picatom.com/1m/%20%20%20_-100-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1m/%20%20%20_-100.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olgasha on October 08, 2010, 07:18:57 AM
 
GD Maria Pavlovna (younger) and Tsarina Alexandra
 (http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/905/garf14.jpg)
I don't think if I've ever seen before any picture of this two women together (and I wonder if Maria liked Alix or not..it doesn't look like they were particularly close to each other)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 16, 2010, 09:02:38 AM
Does  anybody know the contex of this image?. Thank in advanced!

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/335/u212592acme.jpg) (http://img145.imageshack.us/i/u212592acme.jpg/)

 


BTW i love the dress she s wearing!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on October 16, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
Does  anybody know the contex of this image?. Thank in advanced!



Aren't they the Hollywood bosses? David Selznik and some other man...Maria's autobio was once a subject of possible movie, but nothing came out.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Teddy on October 20, 2010, 04:28:32 AM
Dear Olgasha,

Do you mean with the above picture of the Empress Alexandra and the Grand Duchess Maria P. jr. that you never seen a picture with both women in it, or do you mean that you never seen a picture of them with only them in the same picture?

There are pictures with both women in groupshots, for example a picture of her before her engagement with Prince Wilhelm of Sweden in a garden with the whole Tsarist family and the Swedish Royal family.

Teddy
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Olgasha on October 20, 2010, 11:42:53 AM
or do you mean that you never seen a picture of them with only them in the same picture?

Exactly, this is what I meant.
And I just wonder, what were the relationship like between them both in that time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 14, 2010, 04:46:53 AM

Just saw an interview with Prince Lennart. He said that his mother practically did not exist - she loved abroad and he rarely saw her. When he did she did not care about him. "There was a strange thing about her that might have developed in later years: my mother disliked little children".

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2010, 02:16:22 AM
Maria as a nurse in 1914

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/1110535_0001.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on February 02, 2011, 05:53:56 AM
GDss in 1901

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/mp1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on February 17, 2011, 04:39:15 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/dmmariap001-1.jpg)
GD Maria and her brother GD Dmitri
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on March 14, 2011, 04:59:22 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmpm1905001-1.jpg)
Grand Duchess Maria in 1905
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 15, 2011, 07:30:13 AM
on ebay a while ago

(http://173.12.230.44/yar293.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 16, 2011, 02:12:44 PM
(http://173.12.230.44/yar291.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on March 21, 2011, 12:58:43 AM
Grand Duchess Maria

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmariapypstcrd001-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 11, 2011, 01:13:54 PM
1930s

(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9025/img015t.jpg) (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/img015t.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on May 16, 2011, 06:25:25 AM
GDss Maria and her 1st husband, in 1910 year.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/1910ghf.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on May 17, 2011, 05:34:45 AM
Maria in 1912

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/1912.jpg)

There is other shot, more well-khown in postcards, Maria is in profile there.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on May 18, 2011, 01:01:14 PM
Maria in 1911 year


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/6a3b08f4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on November 30, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
Maria with her son Lennart and grandmother Queen Olga of Greece

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/olgamarielennart.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2011, 01:44:54 PM
Did Lennart remembered his Greek great grandmother ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on December 02, 2011, 11:50:45 AM
Depending on how many times and at what age he met her I would think so. He was about 17 when she died so well old enough to have memories. It would be a question of the level of involvement.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2011, 12:53:27 PM
I don't think it would be hands on like Victoria of baden or Luise of Prussia, but letters might be written between them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on December 21, 2011, 05:09:43 AM
This is how looked a dressing-table of an Imperial Bride. A photo of Maria Pavlovna-younger's dressing-table in her wedding day.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/wedtoolsforimperialbride.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2011, 12:37:19 PM
I think she was the last Imperial Grand Duchess to marry before the Revolution.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on December 21, 2011, 12:51:08 PM
This is how looked a dressing-table of an Imperial Bride. A photo of Maria Pavlovna-younger's dressing-table in her wedding day.



Now that's interesting. She talks about it in her memoirs but I had no idea they had taken a photo of the dressing table set up with Catherine the Great's mirror. It looks like it has been draped in lace but I don't recall that being mentioned in the memoirs. I wonder if that is traditional too dating to the 18th century like much of this part of the ceremony seems to be.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2011, 01:27:14 PM
Maybe it was draped for the cameras ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on January 10, 2012, 06:19:27 AM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd462/ladyisab/IMG_0038.png)

from documentary Mémoires d'Exil about GD Maria Pavlovna. Is this a greek costume? And where this picture come from???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2012, 08:44:10 AM
That's a Russian traditional costume, costume of Russian peasants.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2012, 12:25:52 PM

from documentary Mémoires d'Exil about GD Maria Pavlovna. Is this a greek costume? And where this picture come from???

Do you mean the owner of the photo or the date and occasion?. That's 1901 year, July-August, when the family of Victoria of Battenberg visited Russia and lived in Ilinskoe,the estate of GD Sergei. In the photo you can see Louise and George of Battenberg and a woman whom I can't identify exactly. Could be Zenaida Yousupova.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 11, 2012, 02:24:49 AM
In the photo you can see Louise and George of Battenberg and a woman whom I can't identify exactly. Could be Zenaida Yousupova.

This is Princess Alice of Battenberg.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 11, 2012, 04:45:37 AM
In the photo you can see Louise and George of Battenberg and a woman whom I can't identify exactly. Could be Zenaida Yousupova.

This is Princess Alice of Battenberg.

Thanks, Thomas. I think about her but with the blurry version of the photo was not sure.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on January 25, 2012, 06:10:49 AM
Maria Pavlovna and Wilhelm of Sweden, before their wedding.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/5597af51.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 12, 2012, 09:12:29 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/socutemarch2.jpg)
Maria and Dmitri
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: ashanti01 on March 13, 2012, 06:39:20 PM
Adorable photo. I had seen photos of Dmitri from this session but never this one of the two siblings together.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 15, 2012, 09:28:29 AM
I think this was taken when they are already living with Ella & Serge.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 23, 2012, 01:13:37 AM
I think this was taken when they are already living with Ella & Serge.

Marie and Dmitri had spent their summer holidays with the childless Serge & Elizabeth since they were todlers. The Grand Duke Paul willingly forfeited (abandoned) Marie and Dimitri in favor of his mistress Olga Valerianovna & their child in 1902. Subsequently, Marie (age 12) and Dimitri (age 11) were placed under the permanent guardianship of their uncle, the Grand Duke Serge where they remained from 1902 until his assassination in March 1905.  The Grand Duchess Elizabeth then assumed custody of the children. Dmitri was emotionally distraught by his uncle's murder and was apparently terrified that he would be sent to live with his father in Paris. Elizabeth wrote "Dmitri simply sobs & clings to me. His intense fright was the idea of his having to leave me. He decided he must watch over me as Uncle Serge is no more and clings to me to such a dregree that the arrival of his father was more an anguish than a pleasure, the intense fear he would take him." According to the diaries of K.R. the Grand Duke Paul did not want to take the children from Elizabeth. Marie Pavlovna disputes that opinion.

After his uncle Serge's assassination Dmitri spent a great deal of his youth with Nicholas 11 & his family.

It is alleged that the Empress Alexandra decided against a marriage between Dimitri and her elder daughter Olga because of a rumored relationship between her "ward" and Prince Yussupov in 1912/13. Later, during the war, the Empress harshly criticised Dmitri's involvement with Moscow's "fast set" and his affairs with married women. That Dmitri became a ringleader in Rasputin's assassination did not improve his dissolute reputation in her eyes.

Throughout her llifetime Marie Pavlovna had an abnormally close attachment to her brother Dmitri. She made clear he was the one person (apart from her father) that she really loved. Troubled by her intense need for him Dmitri eventually severed close ties with his sister and arranged his life so that they saw one another rarely.  Marie was deeply hurt by his decision.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on June 23, 2012, 01:55:49 AM
Do you mean after his marriage to Audrey Emery?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 23, 2012, 02:43:22 AM
Two failed marriages, no apparent maternal intinct, plus a poor head for business and not knowing what she wanted makes a loser. I found people here are very generous with their accessment of charecters. There is no apparent reason why her marriages failed. Marie was not sexually or verbally abused or even beaten. Most Royal women at the time would stay married for the security of status and financial stability. Do remember it was the norm for royal marriages not to marry for love. Many royal women had to love the husbands they were given. Marie Feodorovna considered it is better to be dead than divorced. It was fool hardy for Marie to chase after rainbows when she had a husband and child that needed her. I think the great sin of Marie Paulovna was that she does not understand responsibility, and flung herself into situations without thinking the consequenses.

Perhaps the problem with Marie Pavlovna was that she made clear throughout her life that the ONLY people she ever really cared for were her father and brother--and neither put her first in their priorities. In fact, both in their separate ways would eventually sever ties with her.

Marie's very limited affections do not make for sound marriages, parental devotion, or satisfaction in life.

Marie was eager to marry her Swedish prince because he was a means to an end.  A made to order chump who represented a phony idea of how marriage could be (if she ever believed it--i.e., read her letters), freedom, self expression, and good times out from under the stifling control of her aunt,--ditto the ability to access her intense fixation on her father & brother at will.

Given the disconnect from reality and the blindsided futility of her goals, why wouldn't Marie Pavlovna remain forever dissatisfied?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 23, 2012, 03:31:21 AM
Do you mean after his marriage to Audrey Emery?

Dmitri's close ties "break" from his sister Marie Pavlovna appears to have occured sometime after they set up housekeeping together after immigrating from Russia. The process may have even started before then. The precise date is uncertain.

Apparently, the red flags were up early concerning this brother & sister team. Example: At a dance in Moscow, Dmitri & Marie danced SEVEN dances together in a row & the Tsar had to send an equerry to separate them. Source her memoirs. Marie actually touts the all encompassing nature of her relationship with brother Dmitri from the first chapter.

Marie Pavlovna's half sister Natalie Paley was also dysfunctional and in disarray. A very strange & unconventional life, to say the least.  
Both women would have made a fascinating study for a Tennesse Williams play. Prince Lennart later characterized his mother incomplete--an oddity.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 23, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Some people think I should not compare Olga Alexandrovna with Maria Paulovna, because she had loving parents and was more balanced. However we all know it has to do with one's attitude towards life......As I said, Marie had youth, beauty, fortune and lots of potential going for her, but messed up her life. Had she took responsibility of her life, it would not have turned out that way.

So what! Marie tried and since she didn't have a loving childhood like Olga, she become cold and self-centered like any girl whom grow up with the feeling of being unwanted and unloved. but shes not a loser. shame on you.

Marie "unwanted and unloved" during her childhood?

According to Marie Pavlovna; "father's love for us was deep and fond, as we knew"--although she concedes that he displayed little spontanious tenderness. Except for summer holidays spent with Uncle Serge and Aunt Ella, Marie and Dmitri were in the sole custody of their beloved father until he abandoned them at age 12 and 11 respectively (Oct. 1902) to abscound with his mistress and their illegitimate son.

Marie Pavlovna was under the exclusive guardianship of her Uncle Serge from Nov. 1902 until March 2005. Slighly more than two years. There is no question that Serge adored and wanted Marie an Dmitri. Quote Marie, "Towards us he displayed a tenderness almost feminine...In his fashion he loved us deeply. He liked to have us near him and gave us a good deal of his time..If he had known the full extent of our devotion to our father it would have maddened him." Marie describes her relationship with Ella as strained and maintains that her aunt's demeanor was "cold" towards her up until Serge's death

Marie made clear that she had a very loving & close relationship with her brother Dimitri throughout her childhood and early youth. Ditto, she was indulged by her affectionate maternal grandparents and Swedish in-laws. She assets that the Empress Marie & Alexandra were always most kind to her when she was growing up.

Princess Marie was also good looking, talented, and immensely wealthy.

MANY in this world should be so fortunate.

Note that Natalie Paley had a very loving upbringing, she was raised by parents who were happily married, she was never under the guardianship of Serge or Ella, her mother and sister survived the revolution,--and she ended up every bit as screwed up as her siblings Marie & Dmitri. Her brother Vladimir was peculiar too. Granted, it is also rumored that Natalie was sexually assaulted when a teen. If true, the details are conjecture. However, not an uncommon experience. It is estimated that one in four women are sexually abused. Most conceal it.
Natalie was also beautiful, gifted, and adored by all during her lifetime.
 
Arguably, there are many people with loving parents who become cold and narcisstic. Just as there are people like Count Lennard who are abandoned by unloving, cold, and distant mothers and became a fond parents to many children. (Lennart had 9 offspring.)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on June 24, 2012, 01:39:49 AM
All this is very interesting.

In what way did Vladimir Paley grow up 'peculiar'? And in what way was Natalie 'screwed up'?

As to Marie, she was 14 at Serge's death, which, as we are constantly being told these days, is a difficult age, especially for girls. Maybe a difficult time for her to be living with Ella, with whom she didn't get on.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 24, 2012, 11:29:19 AM
I think from what I read about Vladimir Paley, he strikes me as quite normal. He is a poet like his cousin Grand Duke Kostantin of Russia.

Natalie Paley had a film and modelling career, that is much more than we could say about Marie, who lived off the handouts from her ex-father-in-law and son.

As her Aunt Marie (Princess Marie of Greece, Grand Duchess George of Russia) said' she was quite spoilt". As Dmitri had a much calmer relationship with Ella than her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 24, 2012, 01:59:31 PM
I think from what I read about Vladimir Paley, he strikes me as quite normal. He is a poet like his cousin Grand Duke Kostantin of Russia.

Natalie Paley had a film and modelling career, that is much more than we could say about Marie, who lived off the handouts from her ex-father-in-law and son.

As her Aunt Marie (Princess Marie of Greece, Grand Duchess George of Russia) said' she was quite spoilt". As Dmitri had a much calmer relationship with Ella than her.

Keep in mind, Olga Alexandovich also had a guardian (her mother) who orchestrated a sham marriage to suit for her designs & purposes. Although a dutiful daughter, Olga made clear throughout her life, that she did not have a warm or friendly relationship with her mother, the Empress Marie. Like Marie Pavlovna, Olga loved her father and brother Michael above all else when growing up--but unlike Marie, she did not love them to the exclusion of everyone else. Olga was neither cold or narcissitic. She adored her husband and children.

Natalie Paley was addicted to "special attchments" with homosexual or bisexual men: Lucian Lelong, Serge Lifar, Jean Cocteau, Horst, Antoine de Saint-Exepery, John Wilson, George Cukor, Cole Porter, etc. Natalie perferred relationships where she was the object of worship, but not necessarily intimacy. An emotional nomad. Natalie also acquired heterosexual lovers, most notably Erich Marie Remarque. Their affair lasted for 11 years, until it lapsed after Remarque became involved with actress Paulette Goddard. Remargue later fictionalized Natalie as "Natascha" in his posthumous novel, Shadows In Paradise. Although the novelist considered Natalie the love of his life he was not altogether flattering characterizing her capricious, self-involved, and tempermental. Noel Coward, who eventually became very fond of "not too steady on her pins" Natalie (actually preferring her to his former lover John Wilson), made clear in his diaries that both Natalie & her Gay husband were acutely alcoholic. In fact, throughout her lifetime Natalie was plagued with loneliness, opium use, alcohol addiction, tranquilizers, severe depression, & seclusion. After her theatrical producer husband John C. Wilson's death (1961--age 62) from early dementia and cirrhosis of the liver, Natalie spent the last 20 years of her life a recluse who either communicated almost entirely by phone or did not respond to phone calls period. According to several sites, wishing to die in "dignity", Natalie finally took a strong dose of sleeping pills in 1981. She had just turned 76.

Arguably, Irina Paley's life was also somewhat irregular.

Marie Pavlovna intimated, that although attached to one another, Vladimir Paley was too "highly unusual" for the Grand Duke Paul's tastes. Father and son did not have a close understanding. It is alleged, however, the Russian Revolution and Lieut. Vladimir's war record improved their relationship. Is it known if Vladimir had a love interest?


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: perdita on June 25, 2012, 12:29:40 AM
Well...Ella was always very nice with children (like with Greek Minny & Felix Yussopov) and had no problems with Dimitri. Maria was a bit spoilt due to the fact that people felt sorry for her having no mother and a distant father (who cared more about his mistress than his own children). Serge wanted to raise his brother's family, but nobody seem to ask if Ellawanted to have two children in close proximity. The children act as a sore reminder that she cannot have any of her own (although the fault may not necessary lie with her). With Serge spoiling the children, so Ella had no choice but to discipline them. It is something that tringed with jealousy that Ella later apologize for. Yes Marie had her heartbreaks, but she was responsible for making bad choices in men. She could hardly blame Ella for her later choices.

According to Marie Pavlona her aunt Ella told her that she had "suffered greatly because of the affection my uncle had shown us so completely"  and confessed herself "guilty of injustices born of that jeolousy". Conceivably, Ella had been the "child" in Serge's house before her place was replaced by Marie & Dmitri. The root cause of Ella's jeolosy was never explained by the principles involved. Interestingly, early on, Serge & Alexander 111 intimated that Ella would not have children. It is unlikely that Serge would have made known to his family that his marriage would remain unconsummated or that it was he, not Ella, who was the problem.

It is also difficult to believe that Marie invented from whole cloth her portrait of Aunt Ella. The first volume of Marie's memoirs was published in the early 30s when her brother was still very much alive. Dmitri had developed a close bond with his aunt and he never contradicted his sister's version of events. Would she have blatantly lied & slandered Ella to his face?

Whatever her faults, Marie did have reasons to feel aggrieved. After having lost her mother, the center of her universe (her adored father) willfully abandoned Marie for his mistress & child and relocated to Paris. Marie also deeply resented her aunt and uncle. The truth is Ella made clear she did not welcome Paul and Alexandra's children in her home--and although Serge made a good faith effort to persuade his brother to return to his children "who needed him", he also desparately wanted custody of Marie and Dimitri for himself and he got it. That sealed Serge's fate as a prospective father to Marie and Dmitri. Any grievance Marie might have logically placed on Paul's head (and rightfully so) she scapegoat--transferred to Serge. In Marie's eye's it was Paul who had became the "victim" and Serge the illegitimate usurper. That's what she wanted to believe. When her uncle was assasinated it was with joy in Marie's heart that she would again have access to her beloved father. Only Aunt Ella stood in her way.

Ultimately, no one got what they wanted in this drama but the culprit of the piece the Grand Duke Paul. Ironically, Marie claimed in her memoirs that the "happiest" time of her childhood was spent with Dmitri and her Uncle Serge at Illinskoe.

Did Ella "pressure" Marie to marry Prince William? Perhaps, but Marie also wrote that she wanted out from under her aunt's control for a myriad of reasons. Arguably, Marie was at least as wilful as the Tsar's eldest daughter Olga Nicholavich and the later did not hesitate to make clear when she was just 18 that she had no intenion of leaving Russia or marrying Prince Carol of Rumania. i.e., Olga adamently rejected a sought after advantageous and significant dynastic alliance. Arguably it is also likely that Nicholas and Alexandra were far more sympathetic guardians to Olga's private interests, than were Elizabeth and Irene to Marie's. In 1908 Ella was preoccupied with taking holy orders & her sister Irene's first priority was her sister's health & interests.

Given her character, temperment, and limited affections it is unlikely Marie would have had a satisfying relationship or a stable life. But Marie wasn't a total "loser". She wrote an excellent and insightful best seller and made her own independent way in the world until she relocated to South America, made unwise investments, & went financially bust. After Dmitri's early death in 1941 she seemed to throw in the towel.

Ultimately, Marie was responsible for her marriages, relationship with her son, and her life's choices.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 25, 2012, 01:20:17 AM
The point is that Marie had been "difficult" to begin with, while Dmitri was much easier for Ella to handle. Dmitri did not experience any cruelty at the hands of Ella, although it seems that they became closer after Serge's death. There is a photo in Charlotte Zeepvat's book  The Camera & The Tsars"  (in fact on the back jacket) shows a young Dmitri sitting with a smiling Ella in 1908. Yes he did not contradict his sister on her memoirs, but he did not support it either. So it might be Marie's own prejudice against Ella only. In fact her Aunt Grand Duchess George sided With Ella in calling Marie " She was full of life and very jolly, but inclined to be self-willed and selfish, and rather difficult to deal with..." Would the only sister of Marie's dead mother lied about her niece ? Not very likely. On why Dmitri got along better with Ella & Serge, she wrote " Dmitri had a much easier character and taken more of his parent's natures". I rest my case.   
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on June 26, 2012, 02:43:08 PM
Clearly 'screwed up' is a fair description of Natalie Paley!

I wonder whether all of us (including me!) are being slightly unfair to Marie Pavlovna in comparing her with Olga Alexandrovna, as Olga was really the one member of the entire Romanov family who adapted successfully to exile. Having married the man she loved, once her mother died and she was free to get on with her life, she and Nikolai Koulikovsky settled to dairy farming and provided for themselves and their sons. By contrast, Xenia depended on accommodation provided by George V and periodic financial bail-outs, and her marriage (admittedly already under strain before the Revolution) broke down. After being exiled from Greece, Alice of Battenberg's marriage broke up and she had a serious and prolonged mental breakdown, though she ultimately recovered. The point I'm making is that Marie P was rather more typical than Olga A - marriage breakdowns and financial problems seem to have been fairly standard for exiles.

I don't think that Vladimir not being on the same wavelength as his father means that he was peculiar. My father and brother are very different people and I would not call either of them peculiar! Vladimir was dead at 21, so quite possibly the rough edges would have been smoothed out by time.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
By contrast, Xenia depended on accommodation provided by George V and periodic financial bail-outs

Although(thought to be) in financial problems Xenia still left millions when she died,which was a surprise for most people...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on June 26, 2012, 07:50:19 PM
If that was the case what was she doing living at the expense of her British relations?  Maybe that was evidence of her inability to deal with financial matters!

From what John van der Kiste says in his biography, Xenia had little idea about money, allowed herself to be conned by people around her, and lived beyond her means in the sense that she reduced herself to needing bail-outs by bailing out other people (generosity is one thing, but it needs to be tempered with common sense!)

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 26, 2012, 11:11:28 PM
I think the fact that Marie Paulovna went from man to man without finding fulfillment is a refection of her unstable nature. In the end it was her  ex-father-in-law and son (whom she neglected) that came to her rescue speaks volumes about the way she lived her life. life her father, she was selfish in her desires without concerning those in her life (her son for example).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Sara Araújo on June 27, 2012, 03:41:28 AM
According to the book "The Russian Court at Sea"  by Frances Welch, Xenia left 117,272.16 pounds in her will. I'm not an expert on how much that would be in today's money, but it doesn't seem like millions to me.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 27, 2012, 07:58:17 AM
Quite a tidy sum if you ask me compared that to what her sister Olga Alexandrovna or Marie Paulovna the younger had...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: CHRISinUSA on June 27, 2012, 02:03:27 PM
She died in 1958, right?  Well, in simplest terms an estate of £117,272 in 1958 would be worth £2,130.00 today (using historic standard of living calculations).  But the better calculation would be the economic status value of that amount, which would be £6,150.00 today.  This second amount really means what a person of comparable wealth today would have had in 1958.

Either way, she was comfortably wealthy compared to most of us, yet less than what the Duke of Cambridge just inherited from his late mother on his 30th birthday.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 27, 2012, 07:06:59 PM
Yes. But Xenia saved up that to be able to leave some to her sons. A great mother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on June 28, 2012, 05:34:50 AM
House prices give a reasonable feel for the value of money. In 1958 £5,000 would buy a pleasant 3-4 bedroomed house in a decent middle-class area in most parts of England.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: CHRISinUSA on June 28, 2012, 07:30:03 AM
She died in 1958, right?  Well, in simplest terms an estate of £117,272 in 1958 would be worth £2,130,000 today (using historic standard of living calculations).  But the better calculation would be the economic status value of that amount, which would be £6,150,000 today.  This second amount really means what a person of comparable wealth today would have had in 1958.

Either way, she was comfortably wealthy compared to most of us, yet less than what the Duke of Cambridge just inherited from his late mother on his 30th birthday.

Just reread my post from yesterday and realized I had placed the decimal points in the wrong place.  Corrected amounts above.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: QueenEna1887 on September 07, 2012, 12:46:30 AM
Does anyone have a photo of tHE GDss second husband and her son before he died?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on September 07, 2012, 01:03:21 AM
Does anyone have a photo of tHE GDss second husband and her son before he died?

There's no photo of her son Roman.

This is Prince Sergei Poutiatin

http://www.rusalbom.ru/photo/default/17695 (http://www.rusalbom.ru/photo/default/17695)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 07, 2012, 09:51:44 AM
I wonder why they didn't make it. There is no bio on Marie Paulovna the younger to look at her life other from her own perception. Not sure why she had such issues with men (her son & brother excluded).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on October 25, 2012, 12:31:44 PM
Did GD Maria attened her grandmother's (queen Olga) funeral in Italy in 1926, did she say something in her book about it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2012, 07:51:43 PM
I wonder why they didn't make it. There is no bio on Marie Paulovna the younger to look at her life other from her own perception. Not sure why she had such issues with men (her son & brother excluded).

There was a book written in Russian and perhaps one in German. I haven't read either to pass judgment on how well they are written.

I think she had issues with men precisely because of her relationship with her father--not to mention the rather co-dependent relationship with her brother and her love/hate relationship with Uncle Serge. She didn't have one really stable, healthy relationship with any male, really. Dmitri probably came the closest, understandably, but they were almost too close--not in an incestuous way but one that perhaps served to interfere with other relationships.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2012, 11:07:27 PM
I agree. Marie had a lot of baggage with men, even her relationship with her son was problematic. That may be one of the reasons she blamed a lot on her Aunt Ella.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: KarlandZita on January 19, 2013, 08:35:46 AM
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/239679201202041830214.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=239679201202041830214.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 11, 2013, 04:49:43 AM
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/cc6b30cfaa2a730e99526eabb353b2e2/tumblr_mnfi8cmaKp1rpbryfo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 11, 2013, 08:29:44 AM
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3631/283vq.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/283vq.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 10, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
I am currently reading “Education of a Princess”, which is a biography by Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the Younger, and it is quickly proving to be both a wonderful read and a fascinating source of information. Maria Pavlovna is often dismissed as spoilt and problematic, but from the book it is clear she had a sharp mind, was intelligent and also literally gifted, with wild imagination.

Even though one has to be critical, as autobiographies can be tricky and the writer rarely discloses everything that should be disclosed, Maria Pavlovna strikes me as a person who is not filled with nostalgic pining, which would make her see the past with pink-coloured glasses (as it is in cases of Anna Vyrubova, Sophie Buxhoeveden or Lilly Dehn) and while she treats the issues from her subjective point of view, she still remains very honest.

The insight she provides into the lives and personalities of Sergei and Ella is extremely intimate and fascinating, and definitely sheds some more light on both their personalities as well as their mysterious relationship. I am definitely engulfed by the book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 10, 2014, 08:45:27 AM


Even though one has to be critical, as autobiographies can be tricky and the writer rarely discloses everything that should be disclosed, Maria Pavlovna strikes me as a person who is not filled with nostalgic pining, which would make her see the past with pink-coloured glasses (as it is in cases of Anna Vyrubova, Sophie Buxhoeveden or Lilly Dehn) and while she treats the issues from her subjective point of view, she still remains very honest.



That's exactly what fascinates me in MP - she didn't sit around and dream about old-good days in Russia,she preferred to be honest and pragmatic,without that nostalgic tune of many exiled Romanovs. They didn't approve MP's ways, but personally I like her will to revive and live in her own way. She was a fighter and explorer,not a dreaming princess in a gold cage.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 10, 2014, 10:37:28 AM
What was Maria´s standing in the Romanov family in exile anyway? Did she maintain contact and relationship with anyone else besides her brother?

She is one of the members of the Imperial family who is hardly ever talked about, even though she is rather fascinating.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 10, 2014, 12:59:39 PM
What was Maria´s standing in the Romanov family in exile anyway? Did she maintain contact and relationship with anyone else besides her brother?


The Romanov clan lined up in opposition with her, not that was a war but  a moral condemnation. She had a contact with her half-sisters Irina and Natalia and I think that's all her real realtionships with her Romanov relatives. She was really alone, she understood well her "outsider" position, she was quite frank in her memoirs when she said that the clan threw her out...Recently I read a reaction of GDsses Xenia and Olga A. on MP's memoirs - they spoke as if in a single voice that the memoirs were disgusting, obviuosly they didn't approve MP's style of writing and her point of view on many events and people.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 10, 2014, 04:59:34 PM
She apparently felt like an outsider since childhood itself... I suppose she was just really tough, realistic and no-nonsense kind of a person. And critical. While other Romanovs still held onto some of the illusions and maybe were oposed to what they might consider "washing dirty linen" in public, especially if the "linen" was of murdered member´s of the family.... I am not that far into the memoirs just yet, but this is the first book in which Ella is not presented as perfection, where Sergei is clearly described as possesive and intimidating rather then "misunderstood" (which is the favourite description by most of the other Romanovs apart from Sandro, who purely hated him) etc....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2014, 10:00:29 PM
I think she was spoilt and tend to blame. Ella wasn't perfect but she did strive to be. Even in MP's account she apologized to her niece on her cold behavior. In Christopher Warricks's book she was happy to marry Prinz Vilhelm of Sweden and move out of her Aunt's orbit.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on March 13, 2014, 08:26:02 PM
MP's memoirs were one of the first Romanov autobiographies I ever read. Even now I can still remember how good they were to read. She seemed to have a very good recall with interesting details thrown in and a willingness to look at both the positive and negative of Royal existence. I think she got thrown out of the royal bubble after her first marriage broke apart. She seemed to be willing to confront the fact that royal training left little practical skills for making a living and gave it a genuine go do better and what was probably her third of fourth attempt to re-invent herself (not any easy thing to do for anyone and harder as you get older).

I had the impression she was bitter about how the Imperial family treated her father and never truly appreciated what Ella and Serge did for them - but maybe she simply saw them as part of the "system" that tore her family apart. At any rate, along with Vorres memoir of GD Olga and GD Alexander's memoirs I think hers are still among the most accessible and informative of the Romanov memoirs today.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on March 14, 2014, 04:46:28 AM
I think that's a fair assessment, though I still have yet to read the book. We should remember that the defining events of Marie's life took place when she was very young - she was 14 when Serge was killed. Whatever the reasons why she and Ella never hit it of, she always suffers in comparison with someone who is regarded as 'perfect'.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 14, 2014, 09:52:29 AM
I think she was spoilt and tend to blame. Ella wasn't perfect but she did strive to be. Even in MP's account she apologized to her niece on her cold behavior. In Christopher Warricks's book she was happy to marry Prinz Vilhelm of Sweden and move out of her Aunt's orbit.

First of all, Maria Pavlovna in her book clearly admits her own faults, including insecurity and jealousy, towards Ella. And I have no reason not to believe, to a great degree at least, that Ella had problematic relationship with her that at least partly she was responsible for. From what I understand Ella was jealous of the children because Sergei loved them so possessively, and adding to it she had no children of her own I can imagine she suffered by their constant presence as a painful reminder. Such emotions could very easily turn into aloofness and hurtful behaviour towards them, something that apparently Maria felt, as it happened in her formative and sensitive years.

As for Maria´s "happiness" over her Swedish marriage: Apparently she wanted to back out, even wrote a letter to Wilhelm and sent it, but being still young, impressionable and uncertain she let herself be persuaded (if we want to avoid the word "pushed") into marriage by others. And as a person, who obviously tried to make the best out of her situation, she then decided to see the upcoming nuptuals optimisticly, aware that it did offer her some advantages and new possibilities. I personally am definitely leaning towards believing Marie herself than a biographer of her aunt in such matter.

Basically I refuse to accept "spoilt Maria/saint Ella" black and white theory that sometimes appears.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 14, 2014, 09:53:27 AM
I have mentioned this before, but it was many years ago, so bears repeating here.  My "Tante Lilly" (Grafinya Elizabeta Tarasova) was about the same age and close friends with MP in New York.  Lilly used to speak quite fondly of her, and had many books and gifts of wonderful things MP had given her.  I remember a book of Pushkin poems in an Imperial Binding from GD Paul's library.  MP lived in Buenos Aires in the late 30s sharing a flat with Lilly and Lilly's daughter. Tante Lilly was sent by Elizabeth Arden from Paris to run her Buenos Aires store and Lilly and MP opened up a cosmetics firm together.  They were the closest of friends.

Lilly's daughter Odette told me she and the servants of the house and employees of the firm lived in fear of MP, who was cold, demanding and insisted upon being addressed most formally at all times as if still "At Court" in Petersburg. "It was difficult to live with her," Odette recalls. "Very formal. There were no embraces, there was just a reverence, and you did it every day - "Bonjour, Votre Altesse' and "Bon soir, Votre Altesse'. You had to live with that."

I recommend the biography of MP to you on the main AP website  http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/mariepavlovna.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on March 14, 2014, 03:37:30 PM


Lilly's daughter Odette told me she and the servants of the house and employees of the firm lived in fear of MP, who was cold, demanding and insisted upon being addressed most formally at all times as if still "At Court" in Petersburg. "It was difficult to live with her," Odette recalls. "Very formal. There were no embraces, there was just a reverence, and you did it every day - "Bonjour, Votre Altesse' and "Bon soir, Votre Altesse'. You had to live with that."

I recommend the biography of MP to you on the main AP website  http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/mariepavlovna.html

This is very interesting. She comes across as so different in her books. I wonder if they have been massaged a bit by her editor or if she was simply unable to express any warmth - rather like Alexandra - even if that was not what she really felt.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 15, 2014, 01:39:50 AM
I have mentioned this before, but it was many years ago, so bears repeating here.  My "Tante Lilly" (Grafinya Elizabeta Tarasova) was about the same age and close friends with MP in New York. 

Countess Tarasova? As I read in a Russian bio on MP, the name of that lady was Elizabeth de Bruner (spelling?).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 15, 2014, 02:52:08 AM
Maria definitely lacks the "warmth", even in her book. She refers to first husband as "Prince" throughout and to her second husband with his surname instead of the first name. At few points I found that actually pretty weird and definitely impersonal. Neither of her sons´s names is even mentioned and among all the things she describes her relationship to her children is not one of them. The only affectionate bits are reserved for her father and brother.

Is it possible that she was so disliked by her cousins in exile also because unlike most of them, she willingly took the German help to get out of Russia? I cannot really imagine someone like Olga Alexandrovna being squeemish over a divorce....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: katmaxoz on March 15, 2014, 03:04:48 AM
A lot of royal and semi-royal biographies commonly leave out quite a bit in the name of discretion and not slandering other people. If you can work out what they have left out the silences can be very revealing. I remember reading a biography of GD Xenia and at the end the author mentioned she had a long term affair in the latter years of her marriage but even in a modern bio declined to actually say the name of who it was. I felt rather cheated though I have seen the name mentioned elsewhere. MP warmth for her brother and father at the expense of anyone else is at times almost disturbing.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 06:54:07 AM
I have mentioned this before, but it was many years ago, so bears repeating here.  My "Tante Lilly" (Grafinya Elizabeta Tarasova) was about the same age and close friends with MP in New York. 

Countess Tarasova? As I read in a Russian bio on MP, the name of that lady was Elizabeth de Bruner (spelling?).

And as far as I can see there were no Counts Tarasov.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Svetabel on March 15, 2014, 08:10:14 AM
I have mentioned this before, but it was many years ago, so bears repeating here.  My "Tante Lilly" (Grafinya Elizabeta Tarasova) was about the same age and close friends with MP in New York. 

Countess Tarasova? As I read in a Russian bio on MP, the name of that lady was Elizabeth de Bruner (spelling?).

And as far as I can see there were no Counts Tarasov.

Yes, there were no any Counts Tarasov, that's why I said about Elizabeth de Bruner (as she mentioned in MP's bio).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 09:15:31 AM
Tante Lilly was married to a Count de Bruniere, which was her name when she and MP met.  Tante Lilly was born in Moscow, I recall the family name as being Tarasov, but will have to check again.  She was a cousin of Henri Troyat, who mentions her family in one of his books...

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 09:18:46 AM
Ah, I see. Tarasov (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B) was a distinguished, untitled Russian noble family. (As well as a common Russian surname.)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 09:42:03 AM
In Marisha: Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna of Russia (1890-1958) by Grant Menzies, available here on the APTM it's stated: (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/mariepavlovna.html)

It was on this trip to New York that Marie met up with another Russian emigree, Comtesse Elisabeth de Brunière, whose sister she knew from Greenwich, CT. Mme de Brunière and her sister, born Princesses Tar½sova, were originally from Moscow, where they had been educated in the dizzyingly polyglot fashion de rigeur among the Russian aristocracy. Mme de Brunière had with her a daughter, Odette, and at the time Marie met her Mme de Brunière's home base was Buenos Aires, whence she traveled as part of her work setting up a salon and representing Elizabeth Arden there. According to Odette, from the moment they met Marie and Mme de Brunière "got along beautifully."

I can't find any de Brunière comital title. And here Yelizaveta Tarasova is suddenly a princess, although there were neither Tarasov counts nor princes!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 10:07:46 AM
I recall the family name as being Tarasov, but will have to check again.  She was a cousin of Henri Troyat, who mentions her family in one of his books...

Troyat's family was originally Armenian-Circassian, the family name being T'orosyan, a patronym from an ancestor called Toros from the village of Çənnəb in Nakhchivan in modern Azerbaijan. It was Russified as Tarasov. I see how riches combined with a Caucasian origin would make it easy for claims of a princely title to pop up, but nothing indicates the family having ever been reigning, although they were prosperous merchants.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 10:26:57 AM
Tante Lilly and her daughter always said the family was titled.  I DO know they were very very wealthy and Tante Lilly was always referred to by everyone as Comtesse de Bruniere.

Here is the house Tante Lilly grew up in:
30 Spiridonovka Street:  The mansion was named after Moscow’s rich merchant Grigori Tarasov. Architect I. Joltovki was put in charge of the mansion’s construction. It started in late 19th century and were only completed by his sons in 1912, a year after the merchant’s death.

The neoclassic style mansion is meant as a free copy of Palazzo Thiene de Vicenze (Italy) that dates back to the 15th century. Staged around an open inner courtyard, it consists of two one-storey buildings and an adjoining building. The interior decoration also mirrors the Italian renaissance inspiration, particularly with the painted vaults and ceilings by I. Nivinski and the frieze that decorates the ball room painted by E. Lancere.

Nationalized after the October Revolutoin, Tasarov Mansion now hosts the Russian Science Academy Institute of Africa.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 10:51:48 AM
Tante Lilly and her daughter always said the family was titled.  I DO know they were very very wealthy and Tante Lilly was always referred to by everyone as Comtesse de Bruniere.

We may be dealing with a situation similar to the comital title of Henri de Laborde de Monpezat, the Danish Prince Consort. There are various untitled French noble families and chateaux called "de la Brunière", but no exact comital title, as far as I can see. If the definite article is missing, are you sure it's not "Brunier"?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 10:57:31 AM
St. Paul's School, Concord, N.H, Alumni Horae
Volume 27, Issue 3, Page 102, Articles 1  "Marriages"
Originally published: Autumn 1947
'42-WILLIAM EVARTS BENJAMIN, 2D, to Miss Odette de Bruniere, daughter of Countess Elizabeth de Bruniere and the late Count Alfred A. Alexander de Bruniere, on August 5, 1947, at New York.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 11:03:43 AM
Here is the house Tante Lilly grew up in:
30 Spiridonovka Street:  The mansion was named after Moscow’s rich merchant Grigori Tarasov.

Grigoriy or Gabriel Aslanovich Tarasov, probably the brother of Henri Troyat's father Aslan A. Tarasov.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 11:10:51 AM
'42-WILLIAM EVARTS BENJAMIN, 2D, to Miss Odette de Bruniere, daughter of Countess Elizabeth de Bruniere and the late Count Alfred A. Alexander de Bruniere, on August 5, 1947, at New York.

This lady: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/statesman/obituary.aspx?n=odette-terrel-des-chnes&pid=152543685 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/statesman/obituary.aspx?n=odette-terrel-des-chnes&pid=152543685)?
It gives her mother's name as Elizabeth Saroukhanoff.

If the title was not transmitted to the daughter, if was perhaps because it was for life only, i.e. a Papal title?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
We knew Odette very well.  Saroukhanoff was Elizabeth's mother's maiden name.  The grandchildren were never very keen on their Russian heritage at all.  Not certain why you are being so keen on all of this.  Do you not get that I spent countless numbers of hours with Tante Lilly?  She lived five minutes from us here, and I spoke with her almost daily and visited her and she was a regular guest here when her health allowed.  She treated me like a grandchild because I was far more interested in her Russian roots and story than her actual grandchildren.

She gave us personal, lovely gifts before she passed and we were at her bedside the day before she died.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 11:31:31 AM
We knew Odette very well.  Saroukhanoff was Elizabeth's mother's maiden name.  The grandchildren were never very keen on their Russian heritage at all.  Not certain why you are being so keen on all of this.  Do you not get that I spent countless numbers of hours with Tante Lilly?  She lived five minutes from us here, and I spoke with her almost daily and visited her and she was a regular guest here when her health allowed.  She treated me like a grandchild because I was far more interested in her Russian roots and story than her actual grandchildren.

Oh. I don't doubt that both she and her mother were lovely persons with a fascinating story to tell. I am just a nobility junkie who loves to research this minutiæ. And I'm very fascinated by how any background in Imperial Russia seems to spawn some dubious title claims (not necessarily by the emigrés themselves, but by biographers and descendants) à la Anna Anderson and many instances on the forum. I'm amazed by how it can pop up even in the vicinity of someone who knew an actual Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 12:04:15 PM
'42-WILLIAM EVARTS BENJAMIN, 2D, to Miss Odette de Bruniere, daughter of Countess Elizabeth de Bruniere and the late Count Alfred A. Alexander de Bruniere, on August 5, 1947, at New York.

His ancestor is surely the Napoleonic general Guillaume Dode de la Brunerie, Baron d'Empire, Vicomte, Pair and Marshall of France, Knight of the Order of Saint Alexander Nevsky etc.
So just a little "upgrade" from vicomte to count, just like it happened, sans comparaison, on the way from Ferdinand vicomte de Lesseps to LuAnn "The Countess" Lesseps!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 01:34:44 PM
I do know that the de Bruniere family were living in Moscow before the Revolution.  The Tarasovs and de Brunieres were close friends.  Elizabeth's mother was able to get her jewels out of Russia with the help of "Comtesse de Bruniere" elder, who held a French passport and so was able to leave Russia during the Revolution.  She took the Tarasov jewelry and sewed the pieces into the lining of her sable muff and kept the jewels until Elizabeth's family managed to get to Paris.  Elizabeth had known Alfred their entire lives and she ended up marrying him in Paris.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 15, 2014, 01:44:54 PM
Interesting.

But now I messed it up here: Bruniere is of course not the same as Dode de la Brunerie!
That renders the comital title elusive once again!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: grandduchessella on March 15, 2014, 08:12:24 PM
Here's her obituary:

Elizabeth S. De Bruniere Gale
AUSTIN, Texas -
 Elizabeth Saroukhanoff De Bruniere Gale'; 90, died :.
She was born in Tblisi.
Surviving are her daughter, Odette Terrel pes Clienes; a son Gordon E. Gale; a number of grandchildren; and number of great-grandchildren. Graveside services were held Dec. 4
.at the Red Bluff Plantation in South Carolina. , , .
Remembrances: Christ of The Hills
•Monastery, PO Box 1049,Blanco,Texas
78606. , - •"

Her daughter Odette's obituary (2011) also listed her mother's maiden name as Saroukhanoff.  Elizabeth had made a second marriage to Elbridge Gale. Interestingly, a Bruniere, Fauvre de Bruniere signed the death warrant for King Louis XVI.

Grant Menzies wrote: "The child was the daughter of Comtesse Elizabeth de Bruniere, with whom MP was living in Buenos Aires - EdB was trapped in the US when that country entered WWII, and Odette had to make do with the not very child-loving Grand Duchess.  When it came time to sign off on Odette's report card, Marie signed it as if there were still an imperial
Russia, and as if she hadn't been married to Prince Putiatin." Marie had signed the report card Grand Duchesse Marie de Russie.

Link to Odette's obituary:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/statesman/obituary.aspx?n=odette-terrel-des-chnes&pid=152543685

and a memorial site:
http://rememberingodette.blogspot.com/2011/07/remembering-odette.html

Link to Odette's wedding announcement:
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%20Disk3/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer%20&%20Republican%20Grayscale%201947%20-%201947%20pdf/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer%20&%20Republican%20Grayscale%201947%20-%201947%20-%200268.pdf

Link to a book on Millicent Rogers with a few pages that talk about her friendship with Elizabeth:
http://books.google.com/books?id=WU2LWShbwjsC&lpg=PA210&ots=mRioiITUG5&dq=elizabeth%20de%20Bruniere&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q=elizabeth%20de%20Bruniere&f=false

There was also this bit on a presentation she gave in 1985: "The final program, to be held at 8 P.M. Oct. 23 in the Hurlbutt Gallery on the second floor, is to be given by Elizabeth Saroukhanoff Gale, who fled with her family from Russia to Paris in 1919, when she was 15 years old. Her lecture is titled ''From Georgia to Georgia,'' indicating where she spent the last years in her homeland and the first year in her adopted country. "
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 15, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
The gathering Reception for family and friends after Tante Lilly's funeral was held in our home in Austin.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 08:20:34 AM
Interestingly, a Bruniere, Fauvre de Bruniere signed the death warrant for King Louis XVI.

No, he was called Charles-Benoît Fauvre-Labrunerie and does not seem to have been noble, unless being fils de garde du corps du roi, entreposeur des tabacs  et receveur des décimes du diocèse de Bourges made you noble in ancien-régime France. No evidence of any title for him, from any regime.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 12:17:59 PM
Various French annuraires of the nobility list two Brunière families:
- Brulley de la Brunière, from Meaux in the Île-de-la-France, only prominent member Claude-Jean-Joseph Brulley de la Brunière, Bishop of Mende.
- Servanteau de la Brunière, of Chateau de Guizière or Guissière, near La Mothe-Achard in the Vendée. This family seems older, but also untitled.

In addition there is a Chateau de la Brunière in Givre in the Vendée, which belonged to the de Veillechèze de la Mardière family.

And strangely enough there is a 19th century ballet dancer called Jean La Brunière de Médicis alias Ferdinand!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 12:31:48 PM
- Brulley de la Brunière, from Meaux in the Île-de-la-France, only prominent member Claude-Jean-Joseph Brulley de la Brunière, Bishop of Mende.

We are getting closer to Russia:
A probable relative of his, a Brulley de la Brunière, was a Jesuit missionary in Manchuria in the 1840s. Seems he was murdered by indigenous tribes on the Amur in 1846.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 01:12:02 PM
The missionary was a wrong track, this must be the family:
http://gw.geneanet.org/mcoeur?lang=nl;p=alfred+alexandre;n=allemand+de+bruniere (http://gw.geneanet.org/mcoeur?lang=nl;p=alfred+alexandre;n=allemand+de+bruniere)

Alfred Alexandre Allemand de Brunière, born 5th of October 1899 in Moscow as son of the gantier (glove maker) Joseph Albert Alexandre Allemand de Brunière from Saint-Martin-d'Hères in Isère, France, and Marie-Pauline Guétat. Witnesses to the registration in the French General Consulate: A shirtmaker and another glovemaker. Both father and grandfather glove makers, great grandfather innkeeper, great great grandfather captain in the Republican Army, great great great grandfather commissaire ordonnateur de guerres with a royal pension. Not much sign of a comital title or even nobility!

LOL this is the archetypical apparantly obscure Russian origin = fantastic claims of nobility or imperial descent.

I wonder if HIH knew that her business partner was a fraudulent countess.... Good for her if she didn't care and saw that it was good for business!

Strange how this was randomly confirmed by another site: http://www.frenchinargentina.info/ODETTE-ALLEMAND_DE_BRUNIERE

 (http://www.frenchinargentina.info/ODETTE-ALLEMAND_DE_BRUNIERE)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 01:58:43 PM
great great great grandfather commissaire ordonnateur de guerres with a royal pension. Not much sign of a comital title or even nobility!

It seems that a position as war commissioner did confer / make one eligible for nobility during the Ancien Régime, à la Russian chin, but I think it was a cumbersome and costly registration process that had to be carried out. And of course there is quite a leap between ordinary service nobility and a comital title!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 16, 2014, 02:06:31 PM
That is the family.  I just found the arrival record for Buenos Aires.
The ship WESTERN PRINCE arrived on May 31, 1939 to the Port of Buenos Aires, Argentina
ALLEMAND DE BRUNIERE, ELIZABETH    TIFILS    35 years old
ALLEMAND DE BRUNIERE, ODETTE    PARIS    12 years old
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 02:19:14 PM
The puzzling question is now: Did Maria Pavlovna know her business partner and flatmate was a rather dubious countess and "the count" the son of a glover who might have shod the hands of her aunt and uncle in Moscow!?

One would imagine that someone who signed report cards as "Grand Duchess of Russia" would not take lightly to bogus titles!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
Lol, this whole saga has wonderful echoes of À la recherche de temps perdu, with its Odette (maiden name unknown, comtesse de Crécy, later baronne de Forcheville, finally madame Swann) and Gilberte, adoptée mademoiselle de Forcheville, later marquise de Saint-Loup. The last volume of Poust's œuvre was published in 1927, the year after the real-life Odette's birth.

A Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna does also feature in the novel, but it's probably MP the Elder in both cases, don't you think? Anyway MP's stepmother is mentioned:

D'ailleurs, un peu plus tard, dans une circonstance plus importante historiquement si elle touchait moins mon coeur, Mme de Guermantes se montra, à mon avis, sous un jour encore plus favorable. Elle qui, jeune fille, avait fait preuve de tant d'impertinente audace, si l'on s'en souvient, à l'égard de la famille impériale de Russie et qui, mariée, leur avait toujours parlé avec une liberté qui la faisait parfois accuser de manque de tact, fut peut-être seule, après la Révolution russe, à faire preuve à l'égard des grandes-duchesses et des grands-ducs d'un dévouement sans bornes. Elle avait, l'année même qui avait précédé la guerre, considérablement agacé la grande-duchesse Wladimir en appelant toujours la comtesse de Hohenfelsen, femme morganatique du grand-duc Paul, « la Grande-Duchesse Paul ». Il n'empêche que la Révolution russe n'eut pas plutôt éclaté que notre ambassadeur à Pétersbourg, M. Paléologue (« Paléo » pour le monde diplomatique, qui a ses abréviations prétendues spirituelles comme l'autre), fut harcelé des dépêches de la duchesse de Guermantes qui voulait avoir des nouvelles de la grande-duchesse Marie Pavlovna. Et pendant longtemps les seules marques de sympathie et de respect que reçut sans cesse cette princesse lui vinrent exclusivement de Mme de Guermantes.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Forum Admin on March 16, 2014, 03:05:55 PM
I seem to recall Lilly telling me that the de Brunieres owned a glove Factory. The were not sitting in some garret stitching gloves.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 03:16:26 PM
I seem to recall Lilly telling me that the de Brunieres owned a glove Factory. The were not sitting in some garret stitching gloves.

Aha. Well I didn't expect poor artisans, they would hardly have mixed socially with the wealthy and patrician Tarasovs if they were. But "factory" is a bit disappointing... I was imagining an exclusive boutique with Imperial appointments on Moscow's equivalent of Nevsky Prospekt - which would be which street?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on March 16, 2014, 03:32:51 PM
Back to Marie P. I note that Ella's reaction to her childlessness is suggested as the cause of her unsatisfactory relations with Marie, so this does not detract from her 'perfection' in the eyes of some. However, Olga Alexandrovna was also childless during her marriage to Peter of Oldenburg, and with no prospect of children while they remained married. Yet she had a very happy relationship with Nicholas's daughters.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on March 16, 2014, 03:44:43 PM
Back to Marie P. I note that Ella's reaction to her childlessness is suggested as the cause of her unsatisfactory relations with Marie, so this does not detract from her 'perfection' in the eyes of some. However, Olga Alexandrovna was also childless during her marriage to Peter of Oldenburg, and with no prospect of children while they remained married. Yet she had a very happy relationship with Nicholas's daughters.

I think these oft rehashed squabbles pale compared to the fact that MP was business partner with a fake soi-disante countess!

Perhaps that just shows how little empathy she had for the dignity of the comital status of her stepmother and son!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 16, 2014, 04:41:11 PM
Back to Marie P. I note that Ella's reaction to her childlessness is suggested as the cause of her unsatisfactory relations with Marie, so this does not detract from her 'perfection' in the eyes of some. However, Olga Alexandrovna was also childless during her marriage to Peter of Oldenburg, and with no prospect of children while they remained married. Yet she had a very happy relationship with Nicholas's daughters.

Ann

Yes, but the situation was completely different.

Ella loved her husband and wanted to please him in any way possible. I think it is safe to say he loved and adored children and definitely hoped for some of his own. Yet there were none to come out of his marriage. And then someone else´s children are permanently settled in the house with Serge being very possessive and affectionate towards them. I can imagine this must have hurt. Whilst Olga Alexandrovna did not love her husband, did not want children from him or for him, and she was in the end "just" an aunt, while Ella in many way had to become "mother" (and apparently never 100% succeeding in that from many reasons and obstacles). This doesn´t detract from Ella´s image. It just makes her human.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 16, 2014, 09:41:48 PM
Exactly. Ella wasn't a saint and the children was a constant reminder of her failure to have ones of her own. Also Ella had a much easier relationship with Dimitri than MP. In fact one of the things Dimitri took with him to exile was a big portrait of his Aunt Ella, would he took that would him if he disliked her ? Also a nice photo of Ella and Dimitri relaxing does exisit in Charlotte Zeepvat's picture book on the Romanovs. As for MP even her Aunt Minny (sister of her mother) said she was spoilt.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on March 17, 2014, 04:19:50 AM
Ally Kumari

I'm happy to accept that the situation was different.

Maybe I'm just tired of members of the 'Ella was perfect' school blaming everything on Marie P, who was clearly a somewhat difficult person, but in the circumstances that wasn't surprising.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 18, 2014, 01:04:38 AM
The difference is that Ella "tried" to be perfect but wasn't. She even apologized to MP according to her book. I don't think VMH ever apologized for putting her daughter in the nut house even though Alice never forgot that her own mother abandoned her. Compared with that, I think Ella was pretty close to perfect. But as they say, even saints have their faults.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on May 18, 2014, 03:56:54 AM
It was said before that GD Maria disliked children. I wonder what was her relationship like with GD Dmitri's son Paul-after all that was the son of her beloved brother. Did they stay in touch after GD Dmitri's death in 1942?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 18, 2014, 06:53:03 AM
I don´t think she "disliked" children, but she was obviously not a motherly type. I wonder if she actually had a mother it would be different, but I tend to believe it was just her personality and even if Alexandra Georgievna lived Maria wouldn´t be overly keen on children anyway. If anything I think her mother´s death and consequent father´s exile taught her not to love too many people because you loose them in course of time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 20, 2014, 08:38:24 PM
To put it more simply Marie P had issues with men (from her father, her husbands to her son). Her only devotion to the male species was her brother Dimitri. Her father-in-law & son were more like rescuers in her life. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on May 21, 2014, 05:49:59 AM
I was only curious about the relationship between aunt and nephew (Paul) if there was some? So little is known about that family. BTW did Paul come to his father second funeral?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 21, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
I think so. Paul was pretty open to researchers when he was alive. No not much contact with other Romanovs I think.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on August 23, 2014, 02:32:31 AM
What was Maria´s standing in the Romanov family in exile anyway? Did she maintain contact and relationship with anyone else besides her brother?


The Romanov clan lined up in opposition with her, not that was a war but  a moral condemnation. She had a contact with her half-sisters Irina and Natalia and I think that's all her real realtionships with her Romanov relatives. She was really alone, she understood well her "outsider" position, she was quite frank in her memoirs when she said that the clan threw her out...Recently I read a reaction of GDsses Xenia and Olga A. on MP's memoirs - they spoke as if in a single voice that the memoirs were disgusting, obviuosly they didn't approve MP's style of writing and her point of view on many events and people.
I think she had a good relationship with GD Andrei and his wife Mathilde, there ia even a picture of them together
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2014, 02:01:32 AM
Don't think she was close to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 24, 2014, 04:13:13 PM
Personally I don't think Maria Pavlovna Jr was close to anyone expt for her brother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2014, 12:11:40 AM
Personally I don't think Maria Pavlovna Jr was close to anyone expt for her brother.

I tend to agree with your remark.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on August 25, 2014, 09:38:05 AM
Personally I don't think Maria Pavlovna Jr was close to anyone expt for her brother.
And how did he  feel about that?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: rachel5a on August 29, 2014, 01:53:39 AM
Gdss Marie Pavlovna ran a fashion workshop in Paris, KITMIR, avenue Montaigne. This photography was taken in 1927. She won an award at this time for her work.
She sold Russian embroideries to her friend Coco Chanel. Through her, Chanel made the acquaintance of GD Dimitri and was madly in love, but as Frédéric Miterrand in his documentary-video underlines, "Chanel loved the beauty of men but not their embraces", she was fascinated by Dimitri's stories about Imperial Russia, uniforms and dresses ...
well that's not how they met. BTW when exactly was Kitmir established? was it after Coco met Dmitri (feb 1921) or later?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 09, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
(https://osystematiskastudier.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/bild-1.jpg)

Source https://osystematiskastudier.wordpress.com
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 09, 2015, 06:58:49 AM
(https://cdn1.cdnme.se/cdn/6-2/1456638/images/2012/untitled_50d30d3fddf2b31936000016.png)

http://seniorbloggen.blogg.se/category/ryskt.html
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Maria Sisi on January 09, 2015, 07:00:04 PM
Maria and her brother Dmitri

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/84f1ce1b4377acf00d16f747e3e87a3f/tumblr_mnugl86TvP1so8k6go1_500.jpg)

Anybody have a better version of this one?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Maria Sisi on January 11, 2015, 02:47:36 PM
(http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/4/102/838/102838777_large_4723908_430100_349540435085309_1212582810_n.jpg)
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/lan_ka_k/post283121661
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Maria Sisi on January 11, 2015, 02:53:24 PM
Maria at her arrival in Sweden

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/3362564156_3bc1e4bc69_o.jpg)
(http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/1908_marie_pavlovna_princes.jpg)

She wrote in her memoirs (which I am currently loving!) that she bought the boa which on her honeymoon trip and was in the colors of the Swedish flag

Maria working hard in exile

(http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/4/102/838/102838780_4723908_capturamkmkby5.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 27, 2015, 02:15:25 AM
Maria and Dmitri

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/d2d4ab1a600193a41b9b95f5be655f98/tumblr_nit64ifo2e1tc6ouio1_1280.jpg)

Found here http://hrhawesome.tumblr.com
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 27, 2015, 03:14:55 AM
"Few" years later

(http://nl.media.rbth.ru/all/2015/03/25/8.jpg)

http://rbth.co.uk/multimedia/2015/03/25/romanov
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 28, 2015, 02:20:33 PM
There is a Picture Album of Maria Pavlovna (later Princess of Sweden) which will come out this year by Rosvall Royal Books.
Authors are Charlotte Zeepvat and Ted Rosvall:

(http://www.hoogstraten.nl/theshop/images/zeepvatrosvall.JPG)

Link: http://www.hoogstraten.nl/theshop/product_info.php?products_id=804
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 28, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
Oh my gosh! I am ordering that the moment it comes out! Thank you so much for tha information!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 28, 2015, 03:02:22 PM
Oh my gosh! I am ordering that the moment it comes out! Thank you so much for tha information!

You're welcome. I think this will be part of the swedish Princes and princesses series of Rosvall...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 03, 2015, 01:34:25 PM
(http://cs622219.vk.me/v622219079/26639/VWyFaWnmbv0.jpg)

(http://cs622219.vk.me/v622219079/26627/QDJphaQb5_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 03, 2015, 02:54:41 AM
(http://cs621824.vk.me/v621824079/27a5d/iYtksANQ9Ws.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 03, 2015, 03:24:06 AM
(http://cs622921.vk.me/v622921079/322d3/8_aKlH6s8rQ.jpg)

(http://cs622921.vk.me/v622921079/322c1/8bbJ6sKn05c.jpg)

(http://cs622921.vk.me/v622921079/322b8/n5paEdWYIQY.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Maria Sisi on June 03, 2015, 11:40:35 AM
(http://cs622921.vk.me/v622921079/322d3/8_aKlH6s8rQ.jpg)

Is that Swedish costume or just her eccentric way of dressing?

Considering how old she looks in the picture I would be surprised if it was a national costume unless it was Russian
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: KarinK on June 06, 2015, 03:03:52 AM
Is that Swedish costume or just her eccentric way of dressing?

Considering how old she looks in the picture I would be surprised if it was a national costume unless it was Russian

I don't think it's specifically Swedish. To me, it looks like the kind of bohemian clothing that's inspired by elements of national costumes.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Превед on June 06, 2015, 02:08:09 PM
Is that Swedish costume or just her eccentric way of dressing?

Considering how old she looks in the picture I would be surprised if it was a national costume unless it was Russian

I don't think it's specifically Swedish. To me, it looks like the kind of bohemian clothing that's inspired by elements of national costumes.

To me it looks either Russian / Ukrainian / Belorussian or a reconstruction of Iron Age dress. Doesn't look Swedish.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: mishaxenia on June 06, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
on the back of the photo is written : myself in the costume of a dalmatian peasant
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 29, 2015, 03:40:06 PM
In finding Maria Ps book "Education of a Princess" in a library in a out of town trip it mentions her coming under Zeppelin attack in Insterberg in the early part of WWI. This is most likely the ZIV which is the only Zeppelin I know that bombed this town.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marie Valerie on December 06, 2015, 08:58:04 AM
(http://cs621824.vk.me/v621824079/27a5d/iYtksANQ9Ws.jpg)

Her dog is so cute!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marie Valerie on December 06, 2015, 12:02:47 PM
(http://historiska-personer.nu/min-s/pd452e6640.jpg)

Maria 1912.
Copyright: Engstrand & Andersson 2010.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 07, 2016, 02:01:09 PM
Maria Pavlovna with the Swedish royal family. Maria is standing in the back close to the center, next to her husband.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/4d1c813c2399d58e26934e7002340219/tumblr_o6m0bbw6bk1rh07xwo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on May 07, 2016, 02:45:02 PM
Is it possible to identify the others in the picture, including Gustav and Margaret of Connaught?

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 08, 2016, 02:22:48 AM
I am not familiar with the Swedish royals, but there are names inscribed on the bottom of the picture. Gustav is the man standing second from the left and Margaret sits in front of him with one of her children in her lap.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on May 08, 2016, 06:14:33 AM
Thanks. Actually, second right as you are looking at the picture.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 10, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
i can identify them

From l t r : Prince Carl with spouse Princess Ingeborg and their three daughters. With them, Pss Therese, duchess of Dalarna (nee pss of Saxe Altenburg) , Prince Eugen, Queen Victoria with king Gustav V, Prince Oscar with Eba Munck, Wilhelm and Maria PAvlovna, Dowager Queen Sofia with Prince Gustaf Adolf, Crownprince Gustaf Adolf, Crwnprincess Margaret with little Prince Sigvard, and Prince Eric of Sweden :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Kalafrana on May 10, 2016, 10:40:24 PM
Many thanks.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 07, 2016, 02:44:58 PM
(https://pp.vk.me/c633822/v633822079/342b5/XYrYMQ-RMAY.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marc on June 14, 2016, 05:57:48 AM
Wow,where did you find this portrait?

There were just black and white versions and some small sized pictures of it so far...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 15, 2016, 09:07:56 AM
I found it on adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on June 16, 2016, 02:14:38 PM
she was very pretty
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Marc on June 17, 2016, 11:06:34 AM
I found it on adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com



Thank you :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on July 12, 2016, 02:31:28 AM
(https://pp.vk.me/c636729/v636729079/14c66/NyENc-1kCVs.jpg)

found here https://vk.com/representatives_of_the_romanov
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on July 23, 2016, 07:11:29 AM
Following pictures are from http://historiskbildbyra.imagedesk.se/search.htm

(https://pp.vk.me/c630130/v630130079/44a1e/exbT9_Qnrbs.jpg)

(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20eb3/XLrovavBaMM.jpg)

(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20e90/dgYH3IXdxIE.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on July 23, 2016, 07:12:11 AM
(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20eac/zcJHJQCS7ic.jpg)

(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20e9e/fSStsIHksdY.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on July 23, 2016, 07:12:43 AM
(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20ea5/6rnKXGxQtzQ.jpg)

(https://pp.vk.me/c630130/v630130079/44a25/IbBIIx2T4PQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-younger, her life and relations
Post by: Ally Kumari on July 23, 2016, 07:13:07 AM
With her cousin Victoria Melita

(https://pp.vk.me/c626430/v626430904/20e89/KsJNu60ZM5A.jpg)