Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) => Topic started by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 09, 2004, 09:16:36 PM

Title: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 09, 2004, 09:16:36 PM
.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: pushkina on September 14, 2004, 06:04:09 AM
it is very odd: i've looked all over for a surname for the hesse-darmstadt house (indeed for all four hesse houses).  from the time of the original landgraviate, the split in 1567 until the end of the house, there is no family name attached to them, only the various names of the landgraviate  and then duchy as it evolved.  there is acknowledgement of the common ancestor, philip. but no surname.  this is probably because the split happened before surnames but if that were the case, then most of the oldest royal houses woudln't have names.  and if the danes (the oldest royal house) can have a surname, why not the hessians?

tis' a puzzlement.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Forum Admin on September 16, 2004, 01:51:47 PM
I think the confusion here seems to arise from not making the distinction between "surnames" and the names for "Dynastic Houses".  Dynastic House names are NOT surnames.
From Debrett's:
"The Duke of Edinburgh belongs paternally to the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg which, in turn, is a branch of the House of Oldenburg. When the Duke of Edinburgh became a British subject in 1947, since he possessed no surname, one had to be selected. Oldcastle from Oldenburg was suggested, but rejected. Eventually he chose Mountbatten, the anglicised form of his mother's name of Battenberg."snip
There has been controversy as to the surname of members of the Houses of Hanover and Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, but since both families were of ruling status before surnames came into being, they did not possess one. Nevertheless dynastic names, as distinct from surnames, came to be used."

http://www.debretts.co.uk/royal_connections/royal_surname.html
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2004, 02:22:10 PM
OK, so I understand the distinction of a dynastic name as opposed to a surname, etc.  My objective is not to argue with anyone here, but I am going to ask a few more questions, because I am just trying to satisfy my curiosity now that it is stirred (anything to avoid the to-do pile on my desk).  

Lisa makes a good point with the Battenberg example.  The Hesse family was, at the time, a ruling family.  So I can see that members of a ruling family (or dynasts or whatever the correct term is) might not really have "surnames" in the sense that we do, which is understandable.

However, what happens after a dynasty is no longer a ruling family?  Or if someone voluntaily relinquishes their status?  For example, members of the former royal family of Greece and their descendants?  Or pretenders to say..I dunno, the Portuguese throne? Also, there are examples of descendants of the Spanish ruling family using the surname Borbon/Bourbon/var. spell. etc. Is this just a choice on their part or is it a legal name?

Enquiring minds need to know! ;)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Forum Admin on September 16, 2004, 02:52:24 PM
Let me first quote from Antony Lambton's 1989 book "The Mountbattens".  
"Few sovereigns or subjects worried about the correct names of their Royal House and family until George V was upset by anti-German hysteria during the First World War. In July 1917, with an uncharacteristic flamboyance, he tried to silence patriotic criticism by renouncing his German ancestry and proclaiming the new House of Windsor."  snip
"King George's proclamation of 1917 did not only change the name of the Royal House, it also adopted a surname for his family, Windsor."small snip
"by Letters Patent under the Great Seal he declared that the style of Royal Highness and the titles of Prince and Princess should cease to proliferate.  This was sensible; he had four sons and saw modern medicine would produce a mass of royal descendants without the means to support their dignity.
His decision meant that in future the Royal House would be confined to the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line only and to the eldest living son of the son of the Prince of Wales. There the attributes of royalty were to stop.  The following generations - his great grandchildren - were to either be non royal peers or commoners, which would require a surname."

As for Ruling House members who cease to rule, for whatever reason, they select surnames for themselves, like when GD Dmitri chose "Ilynsky" after the Revolution, or the taking of the name Battenberg.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on September 16, 2004, 06:59:39 PM
thank you, FA, for the link.   i appreciate it very much.
======================================


i would like to add, that if something similar had been offered earlier  in the thread, it would have been much more effective.     in any case, i appreciate the FA's input.   i sincerely wish ms. Davidson had offered to be helpful instead of just telling us all that we were wrong.    

  over time, i've come to realize in a very literal way, that when you're trying to get a point across, it will almost always fall on deaf ears, if you deliver it like  a high-school teacher in a bad mood.      smugness will get you very little.    


and i'd like to make a general apology to everyone involved with this thread for my participation in drawing this thread somewhat away from it's original path.    my only defense is that i genuinely resented the tone i felt was taken in an earlier post;  but i allowed that resentment to continue when the tone i felt i had encountered, seemed to continue.        call it a flaw in my character, but i can't let certain things go unchallenged.....one of those things is a condescending attitude or tone (however unintentional).    

i should have just let it go & laughed it off.   but because it wasn't very important, i let it go on much longer than i should have.  

so, again, i sincerely apologize to my fellow members for helping to pull the thread slightly off the subject.    


lastly, it may seem as though i'm making WAY  too much of this, but there may be some members who resent the previous exchange as much i resented the tone that got me started.      hopefully not, but ya never know.


thanks much.




Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 16, 2004, 07:05:40 PM
I agree with what the FA has said. I'll also be happy to address Janet's questions myself, with this proviso: we need, as I have said, to distinguish agnates - members of dynasties - from royal descendants, who are not members of dynasties - and hence non-royal.

The British have attempted to clean this muck up by designating surnames for their non royal descendants from 1917 on. So, technically speaking, two royal houses are exceptions to the "royals have no surnames" statement. The British are one because by inference, they have made up a surname twice for non royal descendants, we can say that the royals among them have surnames which they do not use out of custom.

The second are the Bernadottes. The Bernadottes had a surname before becoming a royal house, and their non royal descendants continue to use it either as part of a title or as an actual surname. The royal Bernadottes also do not use surnames out of custom.

It is very touchy about non-ruling royal houses and their names. Germany has come up with a system whereby the former titles are now part of a surname. If I did not have to worry about offending people, and I do, I would say that non-royals are welcome to use whatever surnames they choose. Some use the dynasty's name, and others make up a new surname. If they're not royal, and that's the real issue, the point is moot.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on September 16, 2004, 07:17:11 PM
ms. Davidson ---

i must admit that your last post in this thread (when coupled with what the FA stated earlier & the info contained in the link provided) makes  much more sense to me than anything stated previously.

i apologize for taking personally, something that had never been intended that way.  and for allowing it to continue.    childishness & petulance can occur at any age, unfortunately.


sincerely --
Brian von R
brnbg aka: liljones1968





okay, i'm done. ;)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 16, 2004, 11:17:09 PM
Brian - you are so right that any of us can be childish at any age. I want you to know it was never my intention to push your buttons, as it were. I know I can be annoying when it comes to royal history, but I have always tried to keep my sense of humor. I am very serious about history, but not about myself. I hope you will find something you can study as passionately as I have studied the Romanovs for the past 35+ years.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on September 17, 2004, 06:45:31 AM
that's why i'm here.   and i've got almost exactly 20 years under my belt, as it were.... and i'm very familiar with the passion you mentioned ---
it's what motivated me to get a minor in (pre-revolutionary) russian history (i needed a break from my major, so i finshed-up what i needed to get my minors: the one in russian history and one in anthropology).

and i must say, my interest, passion, fascination (et cetera) in the various personalities that made up the clan Romanov, has not diminished a bit....as a matter of fact, it's grown to encompass all aspects of their world, those around them, not to mention the buildings and trinkets with which they decorated their lives & person.

they occupy an enormous part of my day and, indeed, my life....as well as a big chunk of whatever disposable income i have at any given time.    

they're an addiction that i gladly endure  ;)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jane on September 17, 2004, 02:48:01 PM
Thanks to all--especially Lisa, FA, and Brian--this has all been very informative.

Jane
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Angie_H on September 22, 2004, 11:07:05 AM
I have found several different names of Duchies with the Hesse in them
Hesse-Kassel (Cassel?)
Hesse-Marburg
Hesse-Nassau
and of course Hesse Darmstadt
Were the rulers in these duchies all related to one another in someway? At one time was it a bigger kingdom then split up between descendents? I have often read how MF really didn't want Nicholas to marry Alix and one of the reasons is because she was German and the defeat of Denmark by Prussia made her extremely prejudiced  against Germans. But if the families in these duchies are related wouldn't Dagmar somehow been related to Alix since her mother was Princess Luise of Hesse-Cassel?

And why is it sometimes Hesse-Darmstadt and others Hesse and by Rhine?
??? Angie
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jane on September 22, 2004, 11:38:14 AM
Brief, very brief outline:

Hesse was a landgraviate of the Holy Roman Empire.  In the sixteenth century, Hesse was divided up among four sons upon the death of their father, Philip.  Kassel, Marburg, Rheinfels and Darmstadt were the respective capitals.  

Within a few generations, only the lines Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt remained, having abosorbed all the Hessian territories.  Both duchies gained land after the Congress of Vienna in 1815.

Following the Austro-Prussian War (1866), in which both Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt supported Austria, Prussia annexed most of Hesse-Kassel.  Hesse-Darmstadt lost a smaller bit, and was able to later join the German Empire under its own steam as a sovereign state, due in no small measure to the fact that its Grand Duchess was none other than Quen Victoria's daughter (and sister in law to the Crown Prince of Prussia).  Thus Hesse-Darmstadt carried a bit more political clout.

Its no secret that Empress Marie Feodorovna hated Prussians, but I think her initial objections to Alix were more on the grounds that Hesse-Darmstadt was an impoverished little grand duchy--not a very grand match for the future Russian Emperor.  And any relationship between her mother (Luise of Hesse-Kassel) and the Darmstadt family would have been very tenuous and distant.

I think that Hesse-Darmstadt became officially called Hesse und bei Rhein after the A-P War, etc, but I will prepare to be corrected on that.

edited to correct Rheinfels, not Nassau
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jim1026 on September 22, 2004, 04:00:02 PM
 ??? Didn't the Grand Duke of Hesse Darmstadt have to
give up the "by the Rhine" after the war of 1866.  I thought  I had read that somewhere.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on September 23, 2004, 12:32:16 AM
Do not forget about Hesse-Homburg...a great source of information on the Hesse family is l'Allemgane Dynastique's Volume I, authored by a dear good friend of mine, Alain Giraud, with the late great genealogist Michel de Huberty.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: pushkina on September 23, 2004, 12:34:06 AM
it began as a landgraviate in 1568; acquired the duchy of westfalen in 1803, only in 1806 did the landgrave take the title grand duke.

in 1816 after the congress of vienna and the swapping of territory did it become the grand duchy of hesse and by the rhine. in 1918 it became the free state of hesse.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on September 23, 2004, 12:54:08 AM
Oh and Hesse-Philippstahl-Barchfeld, which still exists...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: RomanovFan on September 25, 2004, 11:59:06 PM
Quote
Hi Angie!

I have heard too of "Hesse-Darmstadt" but Hesse and by Rhein is the correct one. However, in the book on the regents of Hessen, the Landgrafs are referred to as "Landgrafs of Hesse-Darmstadt" and their relations, whereas the first Grand Duke of Hessen is referred to as of "Hesse and by Rhein".

The landgraf, Philip the Magnanimous of Hesse divided his territory into four parts between his sons are far as i know, and the youngest who succeeded him was known as George, founder of "Hesse Darmstadt". Louis X became the first Grand Duke of Hessen and Rhine, so is more widely known as Grand Duke Louis I. :)


I thought the correct title was 'Hesse-Darmstadt and by Rhine"? .... ??? And what's the difference between a Princess of Hesse, like Alix was, and a Duchess of Hesse, like her mother? Is it like Emperor or Empress, where if the ladies marry someone w/ a title they are automatically given the female equivelant of that same title?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: RomanovFan on September 29, 2004, 08:34:38 PM
Quote
The Grand Duke of Hesse and the Rhine's eldest son would have the title "H.R.H Hereditary Grand Duke", the other sons "H.G.H Prince" and all the daughters "H.G.H. Princess". His wife would be the Grand Duchess.

It is like Tsar/Tsarina and their children Zarewitch and Grand Duke/Duchess


Oh! ok, that makes more sense. Thanks, Thomas. :)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: RomanovFan on September 29, 2004, 08:43:36 PM
Quote
it is very odd: i've looked all over for a surname for the hesse-darmstadt house (indeed for all four hesse houses).


[b]There were four houses of Hesse? I didn't know that. What was the difference between them? I mean, obviously there were different people in each, but--- wait were they the ones listed at the beginning of this thread? ???[/b]
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: MarquisAnthony on October 01, 2004, 11:51:54 AM
Quote
Royalty do not have last names.

HM Louis XVI was called "Citizen Capet" by the revolutionaries - but it was not his last name. It wasn't even his house name, which would have been Bourbon. HIM Nicholas II was called "Nicholas Romanov" by his revolutionaries - but it was not his last name. It wasn't even his house name, which would have been Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp.

Alexis used "Alexis Romanov" at times and I believe Olga signed herself "Olga Romanov" - and the Princess of Wales referred to herself as "Diana Wales". Alexis and Olga did not have last names - they were royal. Diana had a surname when she was a commoner - it was Spencer. Wales was never her last name, she called herself that. HRH the Countess of Wessex is called Sophie Wessex, but - as she married a Queen's son, she has no married last name - and if she did, it would not be Wessex.

I am frankly tired of repeating this fact - and it is a fact and not an opinion - over and over again. And explaining it over and over again. I have been studying royal history for decades - and guys, it's tiresome for people to be debating something that is factual in nature.

Sometimes there's an issue where an opinion is involved - but this is not one of them. For heaven's sake, let's give this one a rest - okay?



Capet from "Citizen Capet" is technically the house name of the French. The Bourbons are direct descendants in the male lineage of the Capets. All of the Bourbons are descended from: Robert de France

Robert de France, Comte de Clermont was the son of Louis IX and Marguerite de Provence.
He wed Beatrice, heiress of Bourbon. Their son became Duke of Bourbon and the entire line descended form him. Thus they were always dukes of Bourbon were known by their title but they are of the male branch of the Capets descending from Hugh Capet, the mayor of Paris. I think that this would make them one of the very few, if not the only, European house that has had a direct male descendancy from the ancestor who founded the house to the present day.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 05, 2004, 04:31:54 PM
Marquis: The house or dynastic name for the French Royal house was not Capet at the time of the Revolution. It was Bourbon. It was nonsensical to call Louis XVI "Louis Capet" because he was descended from the House of Capet. If you were descended from someone named Brandon, would it then be okay for us to call you "Marquis Brandon" if that were not your name?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jane on October 05, 2004, 05:49:25 PM
Besides, wasn't the whole point of calling Louis XVI "Citizen Capet" to insult and degrade him?  :)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: rskkiya on October 05, 2004, 06:45:46 PM
Jane :)

  Well, I think that in calling Louis Citizen Capet, they were reinforcing the notion that his previous status as monarch was no longer valid... he was no longer King! Whether this would be taken as an insult would rather depend on what side of this situation one might feel more simpathy--Royalist or Republican.

Last names are a more modern notion than most people may realize.

Rskkiya the cat
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 05, 2004, 10:46:16 PM
Indeed, one of the reasons royalty does generally not have surnames is that royalty and royal houses predate surnames!
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marc on January 20, 2005, 05:55:07 AM
I was just wondering,what kind of connections this branch of family had with other more main branches of the family(Hesse und Rhine,Hesse-Cassel...) and are there any notable members of this specific branch of the family?The same questions goes for exctinct branches Hesse-Philippsthal,Hesse-Homburg...Thanks
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Paul on January 20, 2005, 11:13:45 AM
Here's a link for the technical connections between the Kassel, Darmstadt, and other Hessian families. The root site is a wonderful treasure for genealogical data on all of the European royal families, btw.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/brabant/hesse.html

Just point & click on Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld.

In all of my readings, I don't recall many references to this family. It doesn't sound as though they interacted very closely with the major branches. I could be wrong, however.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marc on January 20, 2005, 03:26:18 PM
Thanks.I have already seen their family tree,but I was wondering if there was anyone from theese branch(es) of the family who was much more known for him/herself?We know so little about,for example,Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld family,and yet this is the only branch of the family left except Hesse-Cassel,wich is now main branch?They seem to be left behind...
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: darius on March 16, 2005, 06:52:14 AM
I think Prince Moritz is the current Head of the family. Can anyone supply more information on his life, current role and family.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2005, 08:48:36 AM
Quote
I think Prince Moritz is the current Head of the family. Can anyone supply more information on his life, current role and family.


Yes, Moritz is the Landgrave.  His father, Philipp. was married to Pss Mafalda of Savoy.
You will find a lot about the family in my book, Queen Victoria's Descendants.  The family business which includes Schloss Kronberg (an exclusive hotel) is now in the hands of the eldest son, Donatus, who is married to Countess Flora of Faber-Castell.  Moritz is in his late 70s and divorced from Pss Tatiana zu Sayn-Wittengenstein who is the sister of Richard who is married to benedikte of denmark.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on March 16, 2005, 09:29:10 AM
Don Hesse married FLORIA Faber-Castell in 2003.  The European Royal History Journal had full coverage of this wedding since we sent a reporter and a photogrepher to cover the wedding for us.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: allanraymond on March 16, 2005, 05:56:00 PM
Quote

Yes, Moritz is the Landgrave.  His father, Philipp. was married to Pss Mafalda of Savoy.
You will find a lot about the family in my book, Queen Victoria's Descendants.  The family business which includes Schloss Kronberg (an exclusive hotel) is now in the hands of the eldest son, Donatus, who is married to Countess Flora of Faber-Castell.  Moritz is in his late 70s and divorced from Pss Tatiana zu Sayn-Wittengenstein who is the sister of Richard who is married to benedikte of denmark.



Isn't it Floria?

I've provided a link to my Web Site below, which has another link to "The Faber-Castell Story".

 http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Hesse_Cassel_Royal_Family.htm#45.45312
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: TampaBay on March 16, 2005, 06:08:48 PM
Quote
Don Hesse married FLORIA Faber-Castell in 2003.  The European Royal History Journal had full coverage of this wedding since we sent a reporter and a photogrepher to cover the wedding for us.

Arturo Beéche


Arturo,

Does Don Hesse have a sister named Mafalda(?spelling) who was profiled in the September 2003 Vanity Fair Young & Royal Issue.  

If I am not mistaken or mixing up my Royals, I believe I read she has several chikdren and several ex-husbands.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2005, 09:16:08 PM
Quote

Arturo,

Does Don Hesse have a sister named Mafalda(?spelling) who was profiled in the September 2003 Vanity Fair Young & Royal Issue.  

If I am not mistaken or mixing up my Royals, I believe I read she has several chikdren and several ex-husbands.

TampaBay



Donatus (whose wife is Floria - typed too fast) has two sisters, Mafalda, and Elena.  Mafalda's first husband turned out to be gay, the second marriage did not last - and now she is married to Count Ferdinando Brachetti
Peretti.  Tatler did a nice profile on Mafalda a year or so ago as well (pictures taken by her younger brother.)  She has two daughters by her second husband and two sons by Ferdinando.   A rather nice and elegant woman.  Just a few weeks ago I got a nice Christmas card from her - with photos of the four kids all riding dolphins.
I had the pleasure of staying at Kronberg as Moritz's guest - and had a tour of the private rooms and got to wander around the place.

DOnatus and Floria's marriage was a real delight, and I was thrilled when Prince Moritz sent me an announcement before it was made public.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: darius on March 17, 2005, 06:07:10 AM
Thanks Marlene, Arturo and TampaBay for the info. So, effectively the only Hessian descendants (from the family of the Grand Duke Louis and Alice of Great Britain) are the Mountbattens?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2005, 09:00:57 AM
Quote
Thanks Marlene, Arturo and TampaBay for the info. So, effectively the only Hessian descendants (from the family of the Grand Duke Louis and Alice of Great Britain) are the Mountbattens?



Yes, the male line for the Hesse and By Rhine family is extinct, except for the morganatic branch, ie the Milford Haven line.

In 1960, Ludwig adopted Moritz as his heir for inheritance purposes.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: darius on March 17, 2005, 09:22:16 AM
Thank you for clarifying that Marlene. I´m looking forward to reading your book sometime soon!
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on March 17, 2005, 11:07:43 AM
Quote


Donatus (whose wife is Floria - typed too fast) has two sisters, Mafalda, and Elena.  Mafalda's first husband turned out to be gay, the second marriage did not last - and now she is married to Count Ferdinando Brachetti
Peretti.  Tatler did a nice profile on Mafalda a year or so ago as well (pictures taken by her younger brother.)  She has two daughters by her second husband and two sons by Ferdinando.   A rather nice and elegant woman.


Mafalda is a beautiful woman indeed.  I took nice photos of her at the wedding of her cousin the Prince of Venice in Rome in September 2003.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: jfkhaos on March 17, 2005, 11:10:53 AM
Where does the current head of the house of Hesse reside?  Are any of the ancestral Hessian homes still in his possession?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2005, 11:17:43 AM
Quote
Where does the current head of the house of Hesse reside?  Are any of the ancestral Hessian homes still in his possession?



They own a palace in Fulda, as well as Kronberg (now a hotel), but there is a smaller house on the estate, and they also own Wolfsgarten.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on March 17, 2005, 01:28:54 PM
Schloß Panker is their main residence.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: RomanovFan on March 17, 2005, 06:42:38 PM
Is that royal German house even called the House of Hesse anymore? I thought it was destroyed in 1918 and was never restored?  ???
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: TampaBay on March 17, 2005, 09:31:06 PM
Quote


They own a palace in Fulda, as well as Kronberg (now a hotel), but there is a smaller house on the estate, and they also own Wolfsgarten.



Where is Wolfsgarten in relation to Darmsdat?

Is Wolfsgarten a palace, hunting lodge, forrest cottage or as we say in the USA beach/party shack?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2005, 10:43:59 PM
Quote


Is Elena married?  If so who did she marry?

TampaBay



Elena has not married although she has a natural child by her Italian companion
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: BTTB on April 07, 2005, 03:27:29 PM
My name is Gary Hart. I live in Cape Town, South Africa.

Our earliest known forefather was a Stephen Hart who married the widow, Johanna Magdalena Brown (Born Barchfeld) on the 31st of January 1848, at St Paul's Church in Rondebosch, Cape Town.

She was the daughter of a Philip Andreas Barchfeld who married a Johanna Petronella Anhauser in 1795 in the Cape Colony.

Philip Andreas Barchfeld who was a soldier working for the Dutch East India Company at the time, was given permission in 1800 to remain in the Cape Colony. In the same year Johan Philip Anhauser also got permission to remain in the Cape Colony. Their obvious ties to the Military drawing their two families together earlier in the 1795 marriage.

The only other reference I can find to Barchfelds in the South African archives is that of a Jacob Barchfeld arriving in 1747 from Hesse Kassel, Duitsland.

No connection it seems exists between Philip Andreas Barchfeld and Jacob Barchfeld that I have found so far.
Jacob it seems was one generation ahead of Phillip.

My interest in Genealogy brought me to this forum.  
Our family was always under the impression we were English with a surname like Hart, but with my Great Great Grandmother being a Barchfeld, my Great Grandmother being a Kramer and my mother being a Haupt, it seems we are more German than English.

The Spelling of Barchfeld in South Africa.
Up until 1795, The Cape Colony was under the control of the VOC (Dutch East India Company). In 1795 the British took control of the Colony. Later in 1803, the British gave the Colony back to the Dutch. But in 1806 the British reoccupied the Colony and kept control up until 1910, when South Africa became a Union. Later in 1961, South Africa became the Republic of South Africa.
The problem here is the Barchfeld name, with obvious German/Prussian Origins, were working for the Dutch up until 1795. The Philip Andreas Barchfeld in question was given permission to remain in the Colony in 1800, while under English Rule. But at this stage, the clerks were still mostly Dutch it seems.
In 1795 the name is given as Barchfeld.
At 1800, the name is given as Bargveld or even Bergveld. Towards 1820 and later the name is given as Barchfield. By this stage the British having full control of the Cape Colony.
South Africa's rich and diverse history bearing influence on to the spelling of the name.
A published book, by Hesse, gives the name as Barchfeld.
One wonders what was the original spelling of the name, "Barchfeld".

A online listing for Barchfeld under the heading, "Names of German Immigrants 1652-1806"
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7589/Names/PersonaliaA-F.html

ANHÄUSER / ANHUYSER, Johann Philipp, Kreuznach, 1775 (See also Cape Directory 1800, by Eric Rosenthal at The South African Library, says he came from Keurpalts)
BARCHFELD / BERGFELD, Jacob, Hessen-Kassel, 1747
BARCHFELD, Philipp Andreas, Kassel, 1795

More on this forum.
http://rhubarb.mweb.co.za/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=793
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marc on April 07, 2005, 05:16:47 PM
This is for sure!Remember,most of GB people(don't think about Wales,Ireland and Scotland) are by origin Anglo-Saxon tribes who came from Germany,so don't be so sad  :) Just kidding,but this is true,no mather how British people wanted to distance themselves from the Germans!
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: bluetoria on April 07, 2005, 06:39:03 PM
Indeed. Which makes you wonder why - the further you delve into genealogy - people ever need to go to war at all.  :-/

(Welcome to the Forum BTTB  :) )
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Jane on April 07, 2005, 07:26:51 PM
Quote
Here's a link for the technical connections between the Kassel, Darmstadt, and other Hessian families. The root site is a wonderful treasure for genealogical data on all of the European royal families, btw.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/brabant/hesse.html

Just point & click on Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld.



Oh good grief.  My work server has that site blocked as "adult material." *throws hands up* I ask you......
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: BTTB on April 08, 2005, 12:18:31 AM
 :)
Hi All,

Thanks for the warm welcome.
It is wonderful to see this forum is alive, with such interesting people.

I hope some day to clarify my forefathers, or in our case our foremothers origins. (Barchfeld that is)
I do recall when I was younger, my late Great Aunt mentioning we were somehow related to some distant Royal Family in Greece.
But it seems she might have been mistaken and meant Prussia.

I think everyone somewhere along the line is related to the Royals, if they originated in Europe that is.

Well if anyone has family sheets representing for instance Jacob and Philip Andreas Barchfeld and how they came to South Africa between 1747 and 1795, it would be most welcome.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Michelleq on October 18, 2005, 08:19:42 PM
Is this a wealthy family? I read that Tatiana lives on her brother's/nephew's estate in Berleburg?

Marlene, you can answer this question best for me? I know, thanks to you, that the Styles HRH, HH, HSH, etc. are non existant in Germany, but am I correct that Moritz uses the style HRH?

Are they wealthier than the Berleburgs?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on October 19, 2005, 08:46:54 AM
Quote
Is this a wealthy family? I read that Tatiana lives on her brother's/nephew's estate in Berleburg?

Marlene, you can answer this question best for me? I know, thanks to you, that the Styles HRH, HH, HSH, etc. are non existant in Germany, but am I correct that Moritz uses the style HRH?

Are they wealthier than the Berleburgs?



Socially, the styles remain in use (and indeed, govt officials have referred to royals as HRH, etc.)    yes, the head of the house of Hesse (Cassel) is HRH, as is the heir apparent.  

I would say that both families have money, but I have no idea which one is richer.  Neither family has to worry about their next meal.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: TampaBay on October 20, 2005, 06:01:44 AM
Quote


yes, the head of the house of Hesse (Cassel) is HRH, as is the heir apparent.  



Hesse-Cassel-direct desendants of Victoria, The Empress Fredrick and Princess of Grear Britian through one of her daughters?  Is this hotel the former private home of "Vicky"?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on October 20, 2005, 08:07:47 AM
Yes on both counts. I believe it's Moritz of Hesse who's a grandson of 'Mossy', Vicky's youngest daughter. Friedrichshof is the former home of Vicky and now a hotel--a quite lovely one.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on October 20, 2005, 08:57:31 AM
Quote
Yes on both counts. I believe it's Moritz of Hesse who's a grandson of 'Mossy', Vicky's youngest daughter. Friedrichshof is the former home of Vicky and now a hotel--a quite lovely one.



Moritz is indeed Mossy's grandson, and the head of the House of Hesse.  Kronberg is a luxury hotel - I had the honor of being a guest of Prince Moritz there in the 80s
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 28, 2005, 11:58:20 AM
Anybody know if the House of Hesse & By Rhine still exists or being combined with the Hesse-Kassel line since Langrave Moritz inheited from "Peggy" Hesse, the last Princess.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Ilana on October 29, 2005, 02:54:23 PM
Hey, Eric, currently Hesse and by Rhine is extinct as far as I know.  Landgrave Moritz is of Hesse-Kassel as you know, I don't think he includes  "and by Rhine" in his name.  Sad, but there it is.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2005, 08:23:23 PM
True...I think they should do what the Baden and Bavaria did and elect one of the children to inheirit
these exinct lines. By the way I think this is the second Hesse line that gone exinct...Am I right ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on October 31, 2005, 03:50:23 PM
Quote
Anybody know if the House of Hesse & By Rhine still exists or being combined with the Hesse-Kassel line since Langrave Moritz inheited from "Peggy" Hesse, the last Princess.



Eric,  Hesse and by Rhine is extinct.  In 1960, Mortiz was adopted by Prince Ludwig, the last male head of the family (hesse and by Rhine).  This was done for inheritance purposes as Moritz inherited the Hesse and by Rhine family property, ie, Wolfsgarten, among other things.  Moritz was not Peggy's heir - he was Ludwig's heir - but Peggy remained at Wolfsgarten until her death.   However, there is still a male line from the Hesse and by Rhine, and that person is the Marquess of Milford Haven. However that line is morganatic.  
If the families still ruled - arrangements would have been made among the two heads - to have an heir for Hesse and by Rhine But neither reign or rule
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on October 31, 2005, 03:51:42 PM
Quote
True...I think they should do what the Baden and Bavaria did and elect one of the children to inheirit
these exinct lines. By the way I think this is the second Hesse line that gone exinct...Am I right ?


No one was elected.  The last duke in Bavaria adopted Prince Max, who adopted the surname Herzog im Bayern.  Prince Moritz was adopted by Prince Ludwig of Hesse and By Rhine.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on October 31, 2005, 08:57:40 PM
Oh, I'd forgotten about the Marquess of MH when I was thinking about it. I get so used to thinking 'Hesse' (ie Alice, Louis and their descendants) that I forget that Louis Battenberg was a Hesse as well as Victoria.

It's nice the line is still in existence even if not in name.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2005, 10:32:23 AM
If Prince Moritz was "adopted" by Prince Ludwig as his heir. Shouldn't Moritz also adopted the Hesse & by Rhine title like the Bavarian situation ? Surely one of Moritz's children can continue the Hesse & by Rhine title right ?

The other Hesseline I was thinking was Hesse-Philippsthal.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on November 01, 2005, 10:44:45 AM
Quote
If Prince Moritz was "adopted" by Prince Ludwig as his heir. Shouldn't Moritz also adopted the Hesse & by Rhine title like the Bavarian situation ? Surely one of Moritz's children can continue the Hesse & by Rhine title right ?

The other Hesseline I was thinking was Hesse-Philippsthal.



Titles no longer exist in Germany.  I would think that if Germany still had ruling and reigning royal families,  Moritz's younger son could inherit  the grand ducal title - but unlike,  Bavaria where Max took the surname,  Moritz did not need to do this as he was the heir already to the Hesse (Cassel) line.  However, so far, Max has not adopted another male Bavarian to continue the ducal line ..
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2005, 11:15:01 AM
I see...Von Hesse is Von Hesse right ?

Thanks for the cleaification...
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on November 01, 2005, 01:10:28 PM
Quote
I see...Von Hesse is Von Hesse right ?

Thanks for the cleaification...



in German:  von Hessen  

in English of Hesse

German   von Hessen und Bei Rhein  and in English
of Hesse and by Rhine.  Not Hesse-Darmstadt
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2005, 08:36:25 PM
What about the Hesse-Philippstal line is that exinct too ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eurohistory on November 03, 2005, 01:02:37 AM
The  House of Hesse had five branches in the XIXth century.  Today only two of these survive.

See the list:

1. Hesse-Kassel - in existence, Chef des Hauses: Landgraf Moritz of Hesse

2. Hesse-Philippsthal - extinct in 1925 with the death of Landgraf Ernst (1846-1925) - but was "succeeded" by his distant cousin Landgraf Chlodwig of Hesse Philippsthal-Barchfeld who died in 1954 and was also married to a Princess of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, as was the last Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine.

3. Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld - in existence, Chef des Hauses: Prince and Landgraf Wilhelm, son of Erbprinz Wilhelm and his wife, the former Princess Marianne of Prussia.

4. Hesse and by Rhine - extinct in male line in 1968 with the death of Prince Ludwig of Hesse, who adopted Moritz of Hesse as heir.

5. Hesse-Homburg - extinct in 1866 upon the death of Landgraf Ferdinand.

Arturo Beéche

PS: Further reading: L'Allemagne Dynastique, Vol. 1
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on November 03, 2005, 06:20:59 PM
Quote
Hey, Eric, currently Hesse and by Rhine is extinct as far as I know.  Landgrave Moritz is of Hesse-Kassel as you know, I don't think he includes  "and by Rhine" in his name.  Sad, but there it is.


A nice touch is that Moritz's son Heinrich has Donatus as his middle name. Is this in honor of George Donatus? He was born in 1966 so it must've been known that Ludwig & Margaret wouldn't have children and he would inherit?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2005, 08:42:06 PM
Thanks Art for the info on the Hesse lines...

It would be nice if Moritz did put Donatus in honour of the late Prinz (not Grand Duke I was reminded...).
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: carl fraley on March 02, 2006, 07:08:27 PM
Someone stated that Moritz's appelation was HRH.  Is tha correct?? When Grand Duke Ludwig of Hess married Princess Alice he was styled as merely an HSH.(Serene Highness) . Victoria had to issue Letters Patent to create him HRH in her realm.  How can the Hesse-Cassell Brance be HRH?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: ipflo on March 03, 2006, 01:02:30 PM
Quote
Someone stated that Moritz's appelation was HRH.  Is tha correct?? When Grand Duke Ludwig of Hess married Princess Alice he was styled as merely an HSH.(Serene Highness) . Victoria had to issue Letters Patent to create him HRH in her realm.  How can the Hesse-Cassell Brance be HRH?



On the convention of Vienna at the end of the Napoleonic wars the then head of Hesse Cassel tried to get for himself the title of king of the Chatti. Unfortunately for him it Hessen-Kassel only became an electorate (although no emperors were chosen anymore), but with the style of HRH. Therefore the Hessen-Kassel have the right to use the HRH.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: ipflo on March 03, 2006, 01:19:38 PM
Quote


Where is Wolfsgarten in relation to Darmsdat?

Is Wolfsgarten a palace, hunting lodge, forrest cottage or as we say in the USA beach/party shack?

TampaBay



Wolfsgarten is to the north of Darmstadt in the village of Langen. It is a country house/ hunting lodge. It was built in the first part of the 18th century by landgraf Ernst Ludwig of Hessen Darmstadt, who built a lot of hunting lodges around Darmstadt. In the  19th century it became a favorite residence of the grand dukes and their permanent residence after 1918.

Besides the mentioned houses of Panker in the north of Germany, Schloss Fasanerie in Eichensell near Fulda, the Hessenhof hotel in Frankfurt, and schloss Friedrichshof in Kronberg the family also owns burg Tarasp in Switserland.

Some noteworthy houses and palaces the Hessen Kassel family also owned after 1866, when Hessen Kassel was annexed by Prussia, were Horowitz in Bohemia (where the family went in exile in 1866), Rumpenheim in Offenbach near Frankfurt, Wabern and the palaces in Hanau.

Picture of Wolfsgarten

(http://fruehstueckstreff-darmstadt.de/bilder/schloss-wolfsgarten-schlosshof.jpg)

http://www.gg-online.de/html/wolfsgarten_schloss.htm

http://www.gg-online.de/html/wolfsgarten_park.htm


Tarasp

(http://www.photogrammetry.ethz.ch/tarasp_workshop/album/social_event/tarasp/dsc00030.jpg)

Horovitz

(http://www.zamky-hrady.cz/1/img/horovice_let.jpg)

Wabern (from wikipedia)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/b/b1/Jagdschloss_von_Wabern.JPG)

Rumpenheim (destroyed during WWII and now rebuilt with a lot appartements)

(http://www.rumpenheim.de/Impressionen/Marienkaefer/Feld_richtung_OF/Schloss_Neu/Rumpenheim_Schloss.jpg)

(http://www.offenbach.de/stepone/data/downloads/5d/00/00/SchlossRumpenheim2.jpg)

(http://www.offenbach.de/stepone/data/downloads/5c/00/00/SchlossRumpenheim1.jpg)

Philippsruhe in Hanau

(http://image24.webshots.com/24/7/51/36/95475136xKwRjw_ph.jpg)

(http://german.department.tcnj.edu/282_hanau_-_philippsruhe.jpg)

Panker

(http://www.koestlichesdeutschland.de/pictures/04/big/04-0007_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2006, 02:40:22 PM
Victoria never created Grand Duke Louis HRH ...

Moritz is indeed HRH - the head of the house and the heir are HRH, the rest are HH.

For the now extinct Hesse and by Rhine line, the head and the heir were HRH, and the rest were HGDH

Quote
Someone stated that Moritz's appelation was HRH.  Is tha correct?? When Grand Duke Ludwig of Hess married Princess Alice he was styled as merely an HSH.(Serene Highness) . Victoria had to issue Letters Patent to create him HRH in her realm.  How can the Hesse-Cassell Brance be HRH?

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: carl fraley on March 03, 2006, 04:31:08 PM
Hey marlene.. It looks as if we were both right.. Thanks for teaching me a different point of the issue :)

1.) http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness.htm#1862

2.) http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness.htm#1862

Ok it looks as if I was wrong. Once he became either the reigning GD or Heir Apparent he was styled HRH.  I knew i had read somehwere though that Lewis was gazetted HRH by victoria.  SO
we wereboth right.. After doing further research, Lewis was granted the style when he married Alice and at that time He uncle was Grand Duke so at the time of his marriage he was HSH.  So once again LOL we were both right.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2006, 09:23:27 PM


I was wrong when I said Louis was not given the HRH by Queen Victoria. The letters patent was dated  July 1, 1862 ... he had the rank of Grand Ducal Highness at the time of his marriage.  Victoria's HRH was for use in Britain, and not in Darmstadt .. where he remained HGDH.

Quote
Hey marlene.. It looks as if we were both right.. Thanks for teaching me a different point of the issue :)

1.) http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness.htm#1862

2.) http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness.htm#1862

Ok it looks as if I was wrong. Once he became either the reigning GD or Heir Apparent he was styled HRH.  I knew i had read somehwere though that Lewis was gazetted HRH by victoria.  SO
we wereboth right.. After doing further research, Lewis was granted the style when he married Alice and at that time He uncle was Grand Duke so at the time of his marriage he was HSH.  So once again LOL we were both right.

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Bernardino on June 23, 2006, 03:38:07 PM
Hello  :)

Before the 1810s the members of the line of Hesse-Cassel had the title of Landgraves of Hesse (informally Hesse-Cassel), but since then they took the title of Princes of Hesse, Highness, but I don't have more info on this...

So I question if they mantained a title such as the Baden (Zähringen), whom adapted the new usage for a member of a sovereign house (i.e. the title of Prince) while keeping the former title: they were (are) Princes and Margraves of Baden...

So I was wondering if the Hesse (-Cassel)  by any chance were Princes and Landgraves of Hesse after 1810s?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 13, 2006, 03:25:42 PM
Hesse and other Hyphenated Families?

It may be elementary to some in this Forum, but can some one please explain the relationship between the following:
*Hesse-Kassel.
*Hesse by Rhine.
*Hesse-Darmstadt.
*Hesse-Others?

I want to say the relationship is like the Bourbons?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 13, 2006, 03:45:25 PM
Hi Quin!

basically they are the same family, but at some stage the territories were divided up between brothers and there were several branches. The two main ones that survived into the nineteenth century were Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt. The latter is more properly called "Hessen und bei Rhein" - Hesse is Hessen in German!

When one of the branches died out the rule was that it would be taken over by the senior surviving branch. I think I'm right in saying that the only surviving branch is now Hesse-Kassel.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 13, 2006, 04:01:56 PM
BtC:

Thank you.  I thought is was something like that.  Prince Phillip of Hesse-Kassel’s heirs seem to be the head of the family now.

Can anyone confirm that the HbR line of the family is now extinct?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 05:49:58 PM
In the male line.  The only living male descendents are from the morganatic Battenberg branch. 

TampaBay
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 13, 2006, 10:51:56 PM
TB:

That makes sense.  I saw that evolution as a result of Prince Alexander of Hesse-Darmstadt's morganatic marriage to Countess Julia von Hauke.

According to a few sources, this is the evolution of the Hesse by Rhine family: Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (de: Ernst Ludwig Karl Albert Wilhelm), (25 November 1868-9 October 1937) was the last Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892 until his abdication in 1918. His nickname was Ernie.  Despite allegation from his first wife Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, that he was gay, he married Princess Eleonore of Solms-Braunfels, with whom he had two sons:  George Donatus of Hesse (1906-1937), who married Princess Cecilie of Greece (sister of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh), and had three children (2 boys and a girl).   The other son Louis of Hesse (1908-1968) married Margaret Campbell Geddes, with no issue. He adopted Prince Maurice of Hesse-Kassel as his heir.

Louis succeeded George in 1937 when he and his family died in a tragic plane crash en route to the UK.  His surviving daughter of age three was adopted by family members and dies a few years later of meningitis.

And so ends the Hesse-Darmstadt family.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on August 14, 2006, 09:02:32 AM



Hesse-Cassel

Hesse and By Rhine.  There is no such animal as Hesse=Darmstadt ...

Hesse and other Hyphenated Families?

It may be elementary to some in this Forum, but can some one please explain the relationship between the following:
*Hesse-Kassel.
*Hesse by Rhine.
*Hesse-Darmstadt.
*Hesse-Others?

I want to say the relationship is like the Bourbons?

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 14, 2006, 11:18:55 AM
Marlene:

What do you mean? Do you dispute the plural (Darmstadts) or that the thread is incorrectly named as the interchangeable The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Ilana on August 14, 2006, 12:11:17 PM
It is correct to call this family Hesse and By Rhine.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Svetabel on August 14, 2006, 02:57:35 PM
It is correct to call this family Hesse and By Rhine.

And in Russia all the Hesse and By Rhine Princesses were known as the Hesse-Darmstadt's.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: TampaBay on August 14, 2006, 08:10:30 PM
Marlene,

Time for you to join in with your expert opinion!!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 14, 2006, 08:32:56 PM
M & Svet:

The interchangeable usage of Hesse-Darmstadt and Hesse by Rhine has presented some confusion for me as a royal history beginner.  I did a little research and it appears that M is correct.  In the early 19th century the HD name was changed to HbR.

Perhaps the Russian usage stems from those HD princesses that married into the Romanov family before the change.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on August 14, 2006, 10:04:53 PM
merely a geographic designation because the capital of the grand duchy was Darmstadt

but the family were not princes or princesses of Hesse Darmstadt
It is correct to call this family Hesse and By Rhine.

And in Russia all the Hesse and By Rhine Princesses were known as the Hesse-Darmstadt's.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Quin on August 15, 2006, 12:03:46 AM
M & Svet:

The interchangeable usage of Hesse-Darmstadt and Hesse by Rhine has presented some confusion for me a royal history beginner.  I did a little research and it appears that M is correct.  In the early 19th century the HD name was changed to HbR.

Perhaps the Russian usage stems from those HD princesses that married into the Romanov family before the change.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Linnea on August 20, 2006, 09:28:28 AM
I want to know more about the *Hesse-Others family.

By the by, was the name ever spelled Heße?

David


There is also the family of the Langraves of Hessen-Philippstal-Barchfeld.

And no, Hesse was never spelled "Heße". ;) Where did you get this idea?

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 20, 2006, 02:34:50 PM

There is also the family of the Langraves of Hessen-Philippstal-Barchfeld.

And no, Hesse was never spelled "Heße". ;) Where did you get this idea?



No it never is.  ;D ;D ;D

I think the explanation is that when the syllable before the ss is a long one, then it becomes an ß, if it is short (as in Hessen) it stays an ss! Knowing German I'm sure there are lots of exceptions, sub-rules and so on......

In Switzerland they don't use the ß at all, which makes life a lot easier!  :)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Linnea on August 20, 2006, 03:12:20 PM
In Switzerland they don't use the ß at all, which makes life a lot easier!  :)

Liechtenstein neither! ;D
It´s only used in Germany and Austria and nowadays you can nearly always use "ss" when in former times you had to use "ß".
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on September 14, 2006, 04:42:17 PM
Many of the "Hesse-Others" as you call them  :D did only exist for few years. These splinter lines were founded because of lack of money.

The first Landgraf of Hessen-Darmstadt, Georg I, had two sons who got Landgravedoms of their own: Hessen-Braubach and Hessen-Butzbach.
Later they were joined by Hessen Homburg (which existed, like Hessen-Kassel, the eldest of the 4 "main-lines", until 1866 as independant states).

Hesse-Kassel produced Hessen-Philipsthal, Hessen-Philipsthal-Barchfeld, Hessen-Rumpenheim, Hessen-Eschwege etc etc.


As for Hesse-Darmstadt/Hesse and the Rhine: the Landgraf Ludwig X of Hesse Darmstadt had to join the Rhine-Alliance of Napoleon in 1806 and was created HRH Ludwig I Grand Duke of Hesse. In 1816 he was able to add the Rhine area to his Grand Duchy and so the title was extended Hesse AND THE RHINE.
So since 1816 the titles are Royal Highness for Grand Ducke/Duchess and Hereditary Grand Duke/Duchess; Grand Ducal Highness for the princes and princesses.
For the family members in England and Russia they were generally "the Darmstadts"

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: allanraymond on September 19, 2006, 05:15:15 PM
Hope you don't mind me pointing out a minor correction.

Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig married Princess Eleonore "Onor" of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, Solms-Braunfels is another branch from the House of Solms.

You may find my Web Page at: http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/German_Kingdoms.htm , scroll down to Hesse-Cassel and Hesse-Darmstadt of some interest as a it gives some background to the Hesse (House of Brabant).

Allan Raymond

TB:

That makes sense.  I saw that evolution as a result of Prince Alexander of Hesse-Darmstadt's morganatic marriage to Countess Julia von Hauke.

According to a few sources, this is the evolution of the Hesse by Rhine family: Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (de: Ernst Ludwig Karl Albert Wilhelm), (25 November 1868-9 October 1937) was the last Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892 until his abdication in 1918. His nickname was Ernie.  Despite allegation from his first wife Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, that he was gay, he married Princess Eleonore of Solms-Braunfels, with whom he had two sons:  George Donatus of Hesse (1906-1937), who married Princess Cecilie of Greece (sister of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh), and had three children (2 boys and a girl).   The other son Louis of Hesse (1908-1968) married Margaret Campbell Geddes, with no issue. He adopted Prince Maurice of Hesse-Kassel as his heir.

Louis succeeded George in 1937 when he and his family died in a tragic plane crash en route to the UK.  His surviving daughter of age three was adopted by family members and dies a few years later of meningitis.

And so ends the Hesse-Darmstadt family.

Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2006, 05:04:25 PM
Yes,linnea is right.There is also a family Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld.The present head is Prince Wilhelm Chlodwig who is the son of Prince wilhelm Ernst von Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld and Princess Marianne of Prussia!
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Learning on November 08, 2007, 09:05:37 AM
Why is the title "by Rhine?" Is it a historical reference to the fact that Hesse is near the Rhine?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Forum Admin on November 08, 2007, 09:07:26 AM
They were the branch of the Hesse family who lived "bie Rhein", by the Rhine.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 11, 2007, 08:39:24 AM
The Landgrafen of Hessen-Darmstadt were created Grand Dukes of Hesse (Großherzöge von Hessen) in 1806 after being forced to join Napoleon Ist's Rhine Alliance.
After Napoleons army had been defeated in 1815
their territory was enlarged to the western part, including cities near to the Rhine river, such as Mainz, Lorsch, Worms etc. Thats why the title was changed in "Hesse and the Rhine" (Hessen und bei Rhein)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2009, 12:59:38 PM
No, Ernst Ludwig was the last Grand Duke. The present head of the house is Prince Moritz of the Hesse-Kassel branch. The Hesse by the Rhine (Darmstadt) branch died out in the male line with the death of Prince Ludwig.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 17, 2009, 01:32:48 PM
Yes...Ernie's younger son and husband of Peg Hesse. Although he did not use the title of Grand Duke after WW I.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2009, 03:18:20 PM
Neither did his elder brother--who was the hereditary Grand Duke.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 17, 2009, 03:33:46 PM
Indeed. In that context, the last Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine was of course Ernie.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2009, 03:52:39 PM
and Ernie was stilll known as the Grossherzog even after 1918 - and for the next 19 years.  Actually Moritz is the Landgrave.

No, Ernst Ludwig was the last Grand Duke. The present head of the house is Prince Moritz of the Hesse-Kassel branch. The Hesse by the Rhine (Darmstadt) branch died out in the male line with the death of Prince Ludwig.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 17, 2009, 04:56:36 PM
Moritz is still known by his title of Langrave or just a curtesy address ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 19, 2009, 04:20:28 AM
The title "Landgraf" is out of courtesy - all the members of the hessian family have to bear the titles "Prince/ss and Landgraf/in of Hesse" in their passports so as to enable Moritz to officially hold the title Landgraf as the head of his family.
It seems that - like in Austria - all titles were abolished in 1918 (the head of the former royal bavarian house is just "Duke of Bavaria")
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 19, 2009, 06:34:29 PM
Yes. They put their title as last names too.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 25, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
Titles were not abolished in 1918.  It was not until August 1919, I think, when the new Weimar constitution was issued -- titles became a part of the surname.  Only the head of the house uses Landgraf... the others are princes or princess of Hesse  (the main line) .. the other line uses both.
The title "Landgraf" is out of courtesy - all the members of the hessian family have to bear the titles "Prince/ss and Landgraf/in of Hesse" in their passports so as to enable Moritz to officially hold the title Landgraf as the head of his family.
It seems that - like in Austria - all titles were abolished in 1918 (the head of the former royal bavarian house is just "Duke of Bavaria")
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 25, 2009, 03:14:04 PM
Titles were not abolished in 1918.  It was not until August 1919, I think, when the new Weimar constitution was issued -- titles became a part of the surname.  Only the head of the house uses Landgraf... the others are princes or princess of Hesse  (the main line) .. the other line uses both.
The title "Landgraf" is out of courtesy - all the members of the hessian family have to bear the titles "Prince/ss and Landgraf/in of Hesse" in their passports so as to enable Moritz to officially hold the title Landgraf as the head of his family.
It seems that - like in Austria - all titles were abolished in 1918 (the head of the former royal bavarian house is just "Duke of Bavaria")

thats what I wrote I think
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 25, 2009, 08:05:40 PM
Yes. But is the German government today reconized the title of Landgrave ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 27, 2009, 05:24:43 PM
Yes. But is the German government today reconized the title of Landgrave ?

No, Eric, Germany is a republic. Germany allows the use of courtesy titles and also incorporating the title into the last name.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2009, 02:56:00 PM
Thanks. At least they leave them the curtesy titles. Wonder if they have that in their passports ?
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marlene on March 30, 2009, 12:27:31 PM

The titles are their last name -- Moritz Landgraf von Hessesn - Landgraf von Hessen is his legal surname. 

Yes. But is the German government today reconized the title of Landgrave ?

No, Eric, Germany is a republic. Germany allows the use of courtesy titles and also incorporating the title into the last name.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 30, 2009, 03:56:28 PM
Thanks. At least the German Government accepted this. When Ex-King Constantine tried to do that, he was critized by the Greek Government.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 28, 2009, 06:36:46 AM
Why is the title "by Rhine?" Is it a historical reference to the fact that Hesse is near the Rhine?
The Landgrafen of Hessen-Darmstadt were created Grand Dukes of Hesse (Großherzöge von Hessen) in 1806 after being forced to join Napoleon Ist's Rhine Alliance.
After Napoleons army had been defeated in 1815
their territory was enlarged to the western part, including cities near to the Rhine river, such as Mainz, Lorsch, Worms etc. Thats why the title was changed in "Hesse and the Rhine" (Hessen und bei Rhein)
I believe it was not just purely a geographical term, neither a nouveau Napoleonic-style designation à la "de la Moscowa", but a conscious link to the Wittelsbach Counts Palatine by Rhine (later Electors of the Palatinate), who had ruled Rheinhessen or Rhenian Hesse, the new Hessian territory beyond the Rhine, until the end of the old empire.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2009, 12:20:38 PM
Indeed. Although the Hesse family originally came from one family and branch off into different houses.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 29, 2009, 05:17:08 AM

Might be true - especially since the Hesse-Darmstadt branch was closely related to the House of Wittelsbach since the 1740ies.

And all the Bavarian Kings descent from a Hesse-Darmstadt Princess...............
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2009, 12:58:40 PM
Indeed. Studying the family tree, the Hesse family was closely related to the Badens and Wittelsbachs as well as the British (Hannover Royal Family). I think the Hesse-Kassel line was the one that did not die out.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: grandduchessella on November 29, 2009, 09:29:56 PM
Obviously the line didn't die out since they are now the keepers of the heritage of the by Rhine line as well as their own. Margaret of Hesse (nee Prussia) did her best to assure this with 6 sons though not all left male issue, or even issue at all. The current head of the family, Moritz, is as much Italian (or as much as the Italian royals were actually Italian!) as Hessian as his mother was the daughter of the King of Italy. Given the fondness for King Humbert and Queen Margherita on the part of Margaret's parents (even naming Margaret at least in part after the Queen) it's a nice twist.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Marc on November 30, 2009, 07:39:35 AM
Indeed. Studying the family tree, the Hesse family was closely related to the Badens and Wittelsbachs as well as the British (Hannover Royal Family). I think the Hesse-Kassel line was the one that did not die out.

Out of all lines,today there are just two left:

-Hessen-Cassel and

-Hessen-Philippsthal-Barchfeld
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 17, 2010, 11:37:38 PM
I thought it could be useful to have a thread devoted to Hesse in general and the more political, non-personal aspects of the court and state.

I want to start it with a nice introduction of Hesse, albeit the modern federal state, through an interpretation of its beautiful anthem with beautiful pictures of Hesse: YouTube: Mein Hessenland; Herz Deutschlands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQI_z9dM6Bs&feature=related), My Hesse Land, Heart of Germany.  Goes so well with Meriel Buchanan's statement that she remembered Hesse as a land of song and music.

But this was not the official anthem during the monarchy. Can anybody provide any information about the Fürstenhymne, or Prince's Hymn, in use then?
My guess is that it's based on "God Save the King" / "Heil dir im Siegerkranz".
And since the modern anthem, with its charming cute lyrics, was composed as early as the Wilhelminian era, was the musical Grand-Ducal Family perhaps familiar with it?




(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Hessen1930.png/300px-Hessen1930.png)   (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Image-Wappen-HD.jpg/250px-Image-Wappen-HD.jpg)   (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Grossherzogtum_Hessen.png/250px-Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Grossherzogtum_Hessen.png)   (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Flagge_Gro%C3%9Fherzogtum_Hessen_ohne_Wappen.svg/150px-Flagge_Gro%C3%9Fherzogtum_Hessen_ohne_Wappen.svg.png)
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on April 18, 2010, 03:55:46 AM

The Hessian hymn until 1918 was indeed "Heil Dir im Siegerkranz" - with the melody of "God save the King/Queen". The text is very patriotic and long ^^
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 17, 2011, 08:14:55 PM
Very interesting that in 1866, when the Grand Duchy lost the Hessian Hinterland to Prussia, it did receive some small recompensations, like Rumpenheim, the only part of the Electorate of Hesse situated south of the Main, which was accepted henceforth as the limit of Prussian influence. An interesting fact because it contaied the summer holiday seat of the landgravial Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheim line to which belonged the rather anti-Prussian (but equally undemocratic) Queen Louise of Denmark.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Превед on February 21, 2017, 04:34:31 PM
Continued from http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16966.msg549954#msg549954 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16966.msg549954#msg549954)

Hesse-Philippsthal and Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld were not immediate (reichsunmittelbare) houses, like Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darmstadt and Hesse-Homburg (by some regarded as immediate after 1768), but examples of mediate paragium / partagium / pariage / paréage (shared control of a territory, with the paragierter Herr / Landgraf having local jurisdiction, but not sovereignty). It was similar to the situation of the abgeteilte Herren in Schleswig-Holstein, i.e. the Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg and their cadets line Augustenburg and Beck / Glücksborg.

These cadet lines did not have any other immediate territories (just mediate lordships) to title themselves with besides the collective titles of the House of Hesse and as such they used the same titles as junior members of the main lines. (The designations Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld etc. were just like H-Kassel and H-Darmstadt just geographical terms for their territories or dynastic lines and not officially used as titles.)

All members of the House of Hesse were (and could bear the arms of):
Landgraves of Hesse (the Landgraviate was divided between all lines, the larger part was controlled by Hesse-Kassel, partly due to control over the Hesse-Marburg division)
Counts of Nidda (controlled by Hesse-Darmstadt)
Counts of Ziegenhain (ended up controlled by Hesse-Kassel)
Counts of Katzenelnbogen (the title and some territory divided with the House of Nassau (the Orange-Nassaus are still Counts of K), but the Lower County by the Rhine was controlled by Hesse-Kassel and the Upper County south of the Main, around Darmstadt, was controlled by Hesse-Darmstadt and led to the designation Hesse extending south of the Main)
Counts of Diez (part of the Katzenelnbogen inheritance, but most of this part was controlled by the Nassaus, only smaller parts were Hessian)

Territories acquired after the main divisions in the 16th century, the titles used by at least the heads of both / all main lines:
Counts of Schaumburg (divided with Hannover and the line of Lippe that called itself Schaumburg-Lippe, the Hessian part (exclave north of Kassel) was controlled by Hesse-Kassel
Princes of Hersfeld (secularized monastic territory controlled by Hesse-Kassel, location of the territories of some of the cadet lines)
Counts of Hanau and Rieneck, Lords of Münzenberg (Hanau was controlled by Hesse-Kassel, Rieneck became Bavarian and Münzenberg was controlled by Hesse-Darmstadt)

(Counts of Isenburg and Büdingen - Hesse-Darmstadt acquired these titles in the 17th century, but did not mediatize the territories (some parts ended up in Hesse-Kassel) untill the 19th century.)

In the 17th and 18th century you would probably see unofficial or semi-official references to Princes and Princesses of Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt, but these mere geographical and dynastical terms were never official. The rulers themselves were sometimes referred to as X, Landgraf von Hessen zu Kassel / Darmstadt etc., i.e. Landgrave of Hesse at Kassel / Darmstadt etc.

Then, after the Napoleonic wars, you get limited titles for each main branch:
Hesse-Kassel: Electorate of Hessen (including the Principiality of Fritzlar), Electoral Prince and Prince and Princess of Hesse.
Hesse-Darmstadt: Grand Duchy of Hesse, Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine and Prince and Princess of Hesse and by Rhine.
1815-1866 the title Landgrave of Hesse was first and foremost used by the reigning Prince of Hesse-Homburg (who added Prince of Hersfeld and Count of Katzenelnbogen, Diez, Ziegenhain, Nidda, Schaumburg, Isenburg and Büdingen, since he didn't have a general sovereign title like his cousins in Kassel and Darmstadt.
Title: Re: Houses of Hesse - branches and titles
Post by: Превед on February 21, 2017, 04:51:30 PM
Some great maps:
Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt in the 17th century: http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/25.jpg (http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/25.jpg)
Hesse-Kassel 1567-1866: http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/26.jpg (http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/26.jpg)
Hesse-Darmstadt 1567-1866: http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/27.jpg (http://www.lagis-hessen.de//img/ga/s3/27.jpg)
Maps of Hessian history: http://langen.ykom.de/geschichtlicheratlas.html (http://langen.ykom.de/geschichtlicheratlas.html)