Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: britt.25 on October 17, 2006, 06:58:20 AM

Title: Identification,please
Post by: britt.25 on October 17, 2006, 06:58:20 AM
Dear members,


I have a question concerning the following picture: Can anybody identify it without any doubt?


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FredericBacciochi-2.jpg)


On the page of the "Réunion des Musees nationaux" it is identified as:

Numéro d'oeuvre :
RMN71621
Cote cliché :
00-004708
N° d’inventaire :
MV6555
Fonds :
Peintures
Description :
Frédéric-Napoléon, prince Bacciochi (fils d'Elisa Bonaparte et de Félix Bacciochi) (1814-1833) - en habit de "prince français" en 1819
Auteur :
Krafft Barbara, née Steiner (1764-1825) peintre , femme, autrichienne
Crédit photographique :
(C) Photo RMN - ©Franck Raux
Date :
1819
Technique/Matière :
huile sur toile
Hauteur :
1.700 m.
Longueur :
1.050 m.
Localisation :
Versailles, châteaux de Versailles et de Trianon

But I have doubts that this pictures really shows Frédéric Bacciochi, because there are other sources, where it is said that it shows Franz of Reichstadt (Napoleon II), the son of Napoleon I and Marie Louise and not Frederic, the son of Elisa Bonaparte and Felix Bacciochi. So I am quite confused now and don´t know, what is true. Does anybody of you know this picture?
As the artist Barbara Krafft was an austrian Lady I think it is rather unlikely that this pictures really shows Frederic, because he lived somewhere else, after the fall of the Napoleonic Empire. Reichstadt did live at the Austrian court, so I think it is rather possible that Krafft painted Reichstadt and not his cousin Fréderic, who lived in Italy after his uncles fall, I think. From the looking it´s hard to say, it could be Reichstadt, but as children it is possible that cousins can be similar... :-\

Can any body help me? Does anybody of you know this picture? Why there are two completely different identifications?

I have been searching for a picture of Frédéric for quite a long time, so I think, it´s a pity that it might not be him.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mardam on May 05, 2007, 03:20:46 PM
According to the text in this postcard this is Napoleon II.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/mardam/1811Napoleon-07.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: britt.25 on May 06, 2007, 07:45:56 AM
I thought that before, a pity because I was looking for Frederic Bacciocchi, but thanks for your help. It´s really strange, because it is so often identified as Fréderic B. and not as Reichstadt, but I also hold the opinion it´s Reichstadt by the time :-\ Also because the artist is Austrian.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mardam on May 06, 2007, 12:14:10 PM
I have the same problem with this picture. According to several websites this is Charles, count of Berry (1686-1714), but in the book about Louis XIV
by Nancy Mitford he is Louis le grand Dauphin (1661-1711), so the father of Charles. Can someone help??

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/mardam/who.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: CountessKate on May 07, 2007, 01:08:22 PM
It's extremely difficult to tell - they looked very alike.  This is pretty definitely Charles Duc de Berry, as it is one of a series of portraits with his brothers Louis Duc de Bourgogne and Philippe Duc d'Anjou:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/CharlesBerry-2.jpg)

The portrait Mardam is asking about seems to be of an older man, perhaps in his 40s, and as the Dauphin was 50 when he died and the Duc de Berry 28, I would go for the Dauphin.  The other thing which suggests the Dauphin to me is the artifact he is holding by his side - hunting horn, some sort of flask perhaps (I don't think it can be a helmet, it's too small) - has got the curved back of a dolphin, which forms part of the coat of arms of the dauphins of France.

Generally Nancy Mitford was pretty good about identifications in her books, though not infallible.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: britt.25 on May 24, 2007, 02:30:17 PM
Thank you for clarifying the problem with the Dauphin picture. I saw the two identified differently very often, I was not sure about that point as well...But the explanation seems somewhere logical. Even when there are pictures, where the dauphin looks a bit different, and more "Habsburg" like. I have read in a book that he came much more after his mother...was very blond "like an austrian archduke" and on some pics there is also the lip much to see!

To return to Fredéric again. I have now found another picture, which is likely to be very surely Fréderic Bacciocchi, son of Elisa Bonaparte and Felix B. And I don´t think it´s the same person like the boy the other picture. He is much more dark here and looks more "Italian" , not like the other boy. I also do believe that the Krafft picture is Reichstadt now, also because Krafft was definitely an austrian artist. Why should she paint the Bacciocchi family?

This artist painted different Bacciocchi portraits, also Fréderics sister Napoleone- Elisa:

Here the two siblings, Fréderic and Nap. Elisa to compare- much alike!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/bac.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/kk-1.jpg)


Thanks for your attention ;)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: polignac on November 20, 2007, 03:01:45 PM
This is a beautiful portait of a lady by Vigée-Le Brun...Do anyone know who she was?Could she be Gabrielle de Polignac or is she too young? Thank you


(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/martimjessfan/alady2.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: gogm on November 20, 2007, 08:19:48 PM
Have you checked batguano's site?

That's a real name and the site is at:
http://www.batguano.com/vigee.html (http://www.batguano.com/vigee.html)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on November 21, 2007, 02:50:03 AM
I have looked through that site and the painting is on page 114 but it is listed as A Lady and unidentified. However there are several unidentified.

Could this be the Countess De Provence, Louis XVI Brother's wife? Look on page 125 at a painting of her and note the sash and the eyebrows and the round face! Could this be an older, face turned forward ,painting of her? I realize that the Countess was considerably improved if this is she but so is the identified portrait of her!
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: britt.25 on November 21, 2007, 03:19:50 AM
The style, the big brown eyes, and the round face is very similar to the sister of Louis XVI, but I don't know for sure, if this is her....There are portraits of her, where she looks very similar to this here....
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 01, 2008, 10:24:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/France/familledorleans.jpg)


Can someone please help me, All i know Amelie of Portugal is the lady on the fair right.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on May 02, 2008, 01:14:29 AM
The photo is about 1885 year.

Sitting in front, from left to right: Countess Isabelle of Paris (1848-1919) with youngest son Ferdinand (1884-1924), her mother Duchess Luisa Fernanda of Montpensier (1832-98) with Princess Louise (1882-1955), youngest daughter of Countess Isabelle.

Second row, from left to right: in profile at the very left Jean Duke de Guise (1874-1940) (3d son of Duke of Chartre), then Louis Philippe Count of Paris (1838-93), his brother Duke Robert of Chartre (1840-1910), Duke of Montpensier (1827-97), Princess Marguerite of Orleans (1869-1940) (2nd daughter of Duke of Chartre), her mother Duchess Francoise de Chartre (1844-1925), Princess Isabelle of Orleans (1878-1961) (3d daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Helene of Orleans (1871-1951) (2nd daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Marie of Orleans (1865-1909)(eldest daughter of Duke of Chartre), Princess Amelie of Orleans (1865-1951) (eldest daughter of Count of Paris), Infant Antonio of Orleans (1866-1930) (youngest son of Duke of Montpensier), Prince Louis Philippe of Orleans (1869-1926)( future Count of Paris),and with crossed arms Prince Henry of Orleans (1867-1901) (2nd son of Duke of Chartre
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 02, 2008, 07:08:04 AM
I am afraid there are any mistakes in your replly. I don't think that the lady with a white hat is Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961), future countess of Paris because in 1885 when the picture was taken she was...7 years old! Who is she ? And who is the child in her arms?
In the other hand,the three boys on the right, are  according to me, Robert, elder son of Duke of Chartres, born in 1866, dead the same year 1885 ; his brother, Henri(1867-1901), famous explorer et their cousin, Philippe, future Duke of Orléans, not count of Paris(1869-1926).
This pictute was taken on Eu Castle' Terrace.
REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 02, 2008, 07:12:10 AM
I am sorry: Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961) married Duke of Guise (not count of Paris!!!)

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on May 02, 2008, 10:47:53 AM
I am afraid there are any mistakes in your replly. I don't think that the lady with a white hat is Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961),

At first I also thought there was THE LADY in a white hat. But if looking narrowly you can see that THE LADY is a little girl who is sitting on something, you can see her legs. :))
.
As for the three boys I must agree with you, I for some reason forgot about Prince Robert (1866-85).
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: José on May 02, 2008, 11:53:24 AM
What was the occasion for this photo ?
A christenning perhaps ?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 02, 2008, 11:59:09 AM
Thank you....You may be right. The picture is very bad. I have found it on: wwww.louis.philippe.eu/le_musée. Under this photo the key says as you do for Isabelle d'Orléans. But it  is a very strange document: a little girl with a big body and little legs...

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 02, 2008, 12:25:56 PM
I am afraid there are any mistakes in your replly. I don't think that the lady with a white hat is Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961),

At first I also thought there was THE LADY in a white hat. But if looking narrowly you can see that THE LADY is a little girl who is sitting on something, you can see her legs. :))
.
As for the three boys I must agree with you, I for some reason forgot about Prince Robert (1866-85).


I succeeded to enlarge the picture.Effectively we can see that the little girl is sitting on a STEP-LADDER ! Her dress makes her a little big...

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 02, 2008, 03:46:46 PM
Thank you Sveta and Remi!  :) ;D
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 05, 2008, 12:35:49 PM
The photo is about 1885 year.

Sitting in front, from left to right: Countess Isabelle of Paris (1848-1919) with youngest son Ferdinand (1884-1924), her mother Duchess Luisa Fernanda of Montpensier (1832-98) with Princess Louise (1882-1955), youngest daughter of Countess Isabelle.

Second row, from left to right: in profile at the very left Jean Duke de Guise (1874-1940) (3d son of Duke of Chartre), then Louis Philippe Count of Paris (1838-93), his brother Duke Robert of Chartre (1840-1910), Duke of Montpensier (1827-97), Princess Marguerite of Orleans (1869-1940) (2nd daughter of Duke of Chartre), her mother Duchess Francoise de Chartre (1844-1925), Princess Isabelle of Orleans (1878-1961) (3d daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Helene of Orleans (1871-1951) (2nd daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Marie of Orleans (1865-1909)(eldest daughter of Duke of Chartre), Princess Amelie of Orleans (1865-1951) (eldest daughter of Count of Paris), Infant Antonio of Orleans (1866-1930) (youngest son of Duke of Montpensier), Prince Louis Philippe of Orleans (1869-1926)( future Count of Paris),and with crossed arms Prince Henry of Orleans (1867-1901) (2nd son of Duke of Chartre


All things considered, I wonder wether the prince on the right beside Henri and Philippe is really Robert, son of Duke of Chartres?  I don't think so anymore...
Why? Because this picture was taken at Eu Castle about 1885. Now Robert used to be in bad health. He never would go out of the château de Saint Firmin (his parents's estate near Chantilly), where he led a vegetative life under the care of Doctor Guéneau de Mussy, according Dominique Paoli ("Fortunes et infortunes des princes d'Orléans")
Born in Morgan House, near Richmond (G.B) on january 10th 1866, Robert d'Orléans died on may 30th 1885 to bronchopneumonia.
I think now the picture was taken after his death.
In such a case, this young man with a hat in his left hand before Amélie may be, as you thought, Antonio de Orleans y Borbon, infante of Spain, son of Duke of Montpensier. The two others are well Henri (1867-1901) and Philippe d'Orléans (1869-1926)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on May 06, 2008, 12:19:51 AM
In such a case, this young man with a hat in his left hand before Amélie may be, as you thought, Antonio de Orleans y Borbon, infante of Spain, son of Duke of Montpensier. The two others are well Henri (1867-1901) and Philippe d'Orléans (1869-1926)

Well, actually I had compared photos of Infant Antonio and that young man and considered they were very similar. That's why my first thought was Antonio, not Robert.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 06, 2008, 04:08:10 AM
Hello, Sveta
You are right once more! In her book, Dominique Paoli, a french writer says:"(...)In may, the young Robert is suffering from bronchopneumonia. His health already precarious will not resist at it. On the 30th, he dies in his parents's arms. The prince BEING CONSIDERED AS A CHILD IN INFANCY, mourning will not be worn. (...)"
Robert was 19 years old, the same age as don Antonio...What do these words mean: "as a child in infancy" ? ( considéré comme un enfant en bas âge, in french...) An understatement to say that Robert was mental defective?
 
REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on May 06, 2008, 05:42:28 AM
What do these words mean: "as a child in infancy" ? ( considéré comme un enfant en bas âge, in french...) An understatement to say that Robert was mental defective?
 
REMI[/font]

I think that means he was mentally retarded. That was a usual result of the marriages between very close relatives.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on May 06, 2008, 06:05:41 AM
Mandie is there a way to enlarge this Photograph?  :)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 06, 2008, 04:00:22 PM
I'll try a link:
LINK (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/France/?action=view&current=familledorleans.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 07, 2008, 01:55:42 AM
I remind that the two last princes on the right are Henri and then with crossed armsand sitting Philippe future duke of Orléans (1869-1926)   /size]

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on May 07, 2008, 04:14:51 AM
Mandie thank you so much for that link...yes now I can see that its a little girl in a large hat. It almost makes you wonder if She's wearing someone else's... like children like to do! :)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on May 08, 2008, 01:54:22 AM


. That was a usual result of the marriages between very close relatives.
[/quote]

Usual result ? I don't think we take out a general rule of this case. Robert's brothers (Henri and Jean) and sisters (Marie and Marguerite) were perfectly sound in body and mind,  weren't they?

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on May 08, 2008, 09:43:20 AM


I didn't mean that all children from such marriages were destined to be idiots or mentally retarded. But the cases were usual in such families at least with some children.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 28, 2008, 05:48:28 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/France/French%20Orleans/DeuxprincessesdelafamilledOrlans.jpg)

titled: Deux princesses de la famille d'Orléans

I got it from a French website, heres the link (http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=RETROUVER_TITLE&FIELD_98=ECOL&VALUE_98=France&GRP=1626&SPEC=1&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=1&MAX3=100&REQ=((France)%20%3AECOL%20)&DOM=All&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on November 29, 2008, 03:33:10 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/France/French%20Orleans/DeuxprincessesdelafamilledOrlans.jpg)

titled: Deux princesses de la famille d'Orléans

I got it from a French website, heres the link (http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=RETROUVER_TITLE&FIELD_98=ECOL&VALUE_98=France&GRP=1626&SPEC=1&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=1&MAX3=100&REQ=((France)%20%3AECOL%20)&DOM=All&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P)

I guess that they are( from  left to right) Amélie of Saxony Coburg Gotha(1848-1927) and her elder sister Clotilde(1846-1927, Clémentine d'ORLEANS's daughters.

Warning: there are some mistakes on this website

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 29, 2008, 05:33:59 PM
thanks Remi.  :)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 01, 2008, 04:03:42 PM

I guess that they are( from  left to right) Amélie of Saxony Coburg Gotha(1848-1927) and her elder sister Clotilde(1846-1927, Clémentine d'ORLEANS's daughters.

Warning: there are some mistakes on this website

REMI

Amalie died in 1894.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on December 02, 2008, 11:06:26 AM
Thank you, Marie-Charlotte for correcting my mistake... I mixed Amalia and Clotilde.

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on December 08, 2008, 11:18:12 AM

..


Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 09, 2008, 04:43:32 PM
I had another look at this picture and came to the conclusion that we don't see Amalie and Clotilde in this picture.

1.) The sisters resembled their mother Clémentine d'Orléans, who had very chiselled features (just think of her nose!!), a lot. But in this picture, I cannot see any resemblance to Clémentine.

2.) Clotilde was more than two years older than Amalie. So she had to be a bit taller than her younger sister. The girls on the pic almost have the same height.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on December 09, 2008, 08:54:17 PM

In the site of the "Reunion des musees nationaux", it says about the first picture posted:

Fonds : Photographies
Titre : Les Princesses Hélène et Louise d'Angleterre en costume folkloriques
Description : Album de famille n° 18 : Hélène d'Angleterre (1846-1923) et Louise d'Angleterre (1848-1939), future duchesse d'Argyll
Auteur : Caldesi Leonida (19e siècle) photographe anglais
Crédit photographique : (C) RMN / René-Gabriel Ojéda
Période : 19e siècle
Date : 1859
Localisation : Chantilly, musée Condé

What do you think? Might they be Princess Helena and Princess Louise of England?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 10, 2008, 02:51:47 AM
What do you think? Might they be Princess Helena and Princess Louise of England?

Thanks, Veronica. I don't know much about English royalty, but I guess you are right. There are pictures of Amalie and Clotilde together with daughters of Queen Victoria (I didn't have their identity, but because of their birthdates, I've always thought of Alice, Helena or Louise) and I'm quite sure that the girls on the pic REMI posted, are NOT Amalie and Clotilde.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on December 10, 2008, 06:42:39 AM
Sorry, dear Marie-Charlotte, it is not me but Mandie, the Gothic Empress, who posted the pic for identification on november 28...

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 10, 2008, 11:32:17 AM

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/mariasophia1841/joseph_clotilde_amalie.jpg)

i talked about this picture with my dear friend synnadene, but we couldn't identify the persons fore sure. our suggestion:

(left to right): philipp duke of württemberg, amalie princess of saxe-coburg, marie therese duchess of württemberg, archduchess clotilde and archduke joseph

what do you think?

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on December 10, 2008, 04:34:49 PM



I think as both you,Marie Charlotte, and Synnadene do.The man on the left must be Philip von Würtemberg.Compare with the pic of Philipp herewith. They are the same even though the other looks like .....Rasputin with his long hair and his dense beard! The man on the right must be Archduke Joseph. I am more uncertain about the ladies....

REMI





Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2008, 09:09:45 AM
Yes...very nice looking. I reconized the Coburg Princesses at once Amalie & Clotilde.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on December 13, 2008, 05:32:19 AM

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/mariasophia1841/joseph_clotilde_amalie.jpg)

i talked about this picture with my dear friend synnadene, but we couldn't identify the persons fore sure. our suggestion:

(left to right): philipp duke of württemberg, amalie princess of saxe-coburg, marie therese duchess of württemberg, archduchess clotilde and archduke joseph





I agree with all sitters except "archduchess clotilde". IMO that's Archduchess Elisabeth, sister of Archduke Joseph.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2008, 10:25:49 AM
Which Archduchess Elisabeth ?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on December 15, 2008, 11:57:44 AM
Which Archduchess Elisabeth ?

Mother of Queen Maria Cristina of Spain.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2008, 01:31:11 PM
I don't think so. I have a few photos cdvs of her. That lady was Archduchess Clothide.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on December 15, 2008, 02:34:47 PM
I don't think so. I have a few photos cdvs of her. That lady was Archduchess Clothide.

Do you have a clearer version oа the picture posted by  MarieCharlotte?...Even with a blurry one I don't see the famous nose of Clothilde.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2008, 04:09:48 PM
Yes...That would help. Elisabeth had such a sad face, while Clothide's much prouder.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: synnadene on December 16, 2008, 11:36:11 AM

The picture is from a hungarian site, and the descripiton of the photo:

Magyar csoport a Kóburg nagyszülők ezüstlakodalma alkalmából rendezett családi ünnepen. A jobbszélen József főherceg, előtte Klotild főhercegasszony, vele szemben nővére, Amália hercegnő, Erzsébet királyné fivérének Miksa bajor hercegnek a felesége.

"Hungarian <dressed> group for the occassion of the silver wedding of the Coburg grandparents, right is Archduke Joseph, in front of him Archduchess Klotilde, in front of her Amalie, her sister, wife of Max, the brother of Queen Elisabeth.." (the text doesn't mention other ones)

I don't think, that Klotilde isn't on the picture, but Joseph and his siter-in-law are on it....
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2008, 11:40:07 AM
I think in light of the importance of the occcation. It would be odd if Clothide wasn't there. I think she wasin the photo as stated in the site.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Svetabel on December 16, 2008, 12:25:31 PM


I don't think, that Klotilde isn't on the picture,

I do think Clothilde is not in the pic. What's the year of the picture? She could be pregnant at the time and so absent from the picture. I still think that's Archduchess Elisabeth in front of Archduke Joseph.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: synnadene on December 16, 2008, 01:54:23 PM

The picture was taken possibly in 1868. Marie Dorothea was born in June 1867.
But, Svetabel, you can be right...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2008, 03:55:22 PM
I am almost certain it was not Elisabeth...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Paola on December 17, 2008, 12:43:25 AM
I agree with Eric. If the occassion was the Coburg Silver wedding, then it would be odd if Klotilde wasn't there. Clementine and August married in 1843, then the picture was taken in 1868 for the Silver wedding. Dorothea was born the year before and Margarethe only in 1870, so Klotilde was not pregnant. I tend to believe it is Klotilde. But a larger version would indeed help.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: synnadene on December 17, 2008, 02:37:47 AM

Maybe the original photo is owned by the Historical Photo Gallery in Hungary. I will try to search for it soon...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 18, 2008, 06:25:52 AM
Sorry, folks, but I don't have a bigger version of this amazing picture!
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 05, 2009, 02:01:57 PM
This was the photo in question correct? Don't know if we ever came to a solid conclusion..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/m505205_ph-1289-photomd_p.jpg)


It is certainly Gaston and Ferdinand, in my opinion. The hair lines match the Nemours brothers. Ferdinand already getting that delightful flip of his bangs..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/m505205_ph-841-scan_p.jpg)


Also the photograph was taken at Osborne, where the Duchess of Nemours was often invited to stay during the Orleans exile in England.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 05, 2009, 09:18:01 PM
I was saying the photo of the two boys was taken at Osborne, where the Nemours would have been.


and yes there is the photo of the Duchess with her boys on the jaconde.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 06, 2009, 10:33:06 AM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on March 06, 2009, 11:21:56 AM
Oh! Could you share it please? I would be very grateful...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on March 06, 2009, 11:59:58 AM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/LesOrlansenAngleterre.jpg)

Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: REMI on March 06, 2009, 12:23:27 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/VictoiredcssedeNemours.jpg)

Here is Victoria, duchss of Nemours on her deathbed in 1857, in Claremont (GB)

REMI
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 06, 2009, 02:30:48 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/LesOrlansenAngleterre.jpg)

Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.

REMI


Thanks a lot. I agree with you, but I am also not sure about this lady next to Clémentine.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on March 06, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/VictoiredcssedeNemours.jpg)

Here is Victoria, duchss of Nemours on her deathbed in 1857, in Claremont (GB)

REMI

Thank you Remi. That is a disturbing picture, because of her open mouth I think...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 06, 2009, 05:26:04 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/LesOrlansenAngleterre.jpg)

Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.

REMI


Thanks a lot. I agree with you, but I am also not sure about this lady next to Clémentine.

I think this certainly looks to be the Princess of Joinville. She looks quite a bit like her daughter Francoise as well.

If that doesnt tip the scales...the women seems far too young to be the Duchess d'Orleans, who was 10 years older than the Princess de Joinville.

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on March 06, 2009, 10:02:11 PM
I wish We could see a larger view of this photo but I also think this is the  Princess de Joinville mostly due to the shape of the mouth and chin and age! the Princess de Joinville would be 31 if I am adding correctly and the Duchess of Orleans 41!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/braganza/braganza3/1824%2520Francisca.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.royaltyguide.nl/families/bourbon/bborleans2.htm&usg=__mG8DOm2zLpfGZW6xY-mfKTvNdRs=&h=555&w=431&sz=32&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=5k-jreJCryIJgM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPrincess%2Bof%2BJoinville%2B1898%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1

also

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Francisca_Joinville.jpg/69px-Francisca_Joinville.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Princess_Francisca_of_Brazil&usg=__3QUxjMQkh163-jQFsOiqQ26iXtw=&h=119&w=69&sz=3&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=EDAHEUPu0ZyEUM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=51&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPrincess%2BFrancisca%2Bof%2BBrazil%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DKTT%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1

Duchess of Orleans in 1839

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mecklembourg-Strelitz,_Helene.jpg
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 06, 2009, 10:15:22 PM
In my opinion the quality is more a factor than the size. It almost looks to be a composite. Chartres just doesnt look right.


I also am not sure the young boy is Conde. He had rather distinguishable deep-set eyes at that age. I wonder if it is the duc de Penthievre???

However the boy looks enough like Francois Guise (I KNOW not him he was 1 when this was taken,) to at least be his brother.

GREAT IMAGE!!!
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 07, 2009, 11:33:35 AM
Great Images. I am glad that the website got the Orleans figured out. I got confused by the branches as they have the same names...Louise, Marie...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 07, 2009, 01:45:06 PM
I am sorry, you are absolutely correct REMI, this is certainly Conde.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/condeee.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/conde2.jpg)


Sorry.

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 07, 2009, 02:25:56 PM
While we are doing group shots...lets try this one.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/m505205_ph-754-scan_p.jpg)
This is what I think:
(Standing back L-R) Gaston Eu, Duc d'Aumale, duc de Penthievre, Philipp Saxe-Coburg, August Saxe-Coburg, duc de Chartres, duc d'Alencon, Amelie Saxe-Coburg, duc de Nemours,

I am out of time and can only place the little boy on the groud as Francois, duc de Guise and the young girl standing behind him as Francoise Joinville (later duchess de Chartres.)

Anybody wanna offer their opinions?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 07, 2009, 02:35:49 PM
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/orleansfam2.jpg)
here a bit bigger.

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 07, 2009, 02:41:33 PM
I think now the young girl is Marguerite rather than Francoise.

And the youngest girl likely, Blanche.

c. 1859/60 then.

???

That may also be Conde in the back, to the right of Penthievre.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 07, 2009, 04:29:46 PM
When was this taken ?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on March 07, 2009, 04:58:47 PM
I think Clementine Saxe Coburg is in the middle, looking down. The woman next to her could be her daughter Clotilde.
And the woman sitting in front of Duc de Nemours looks like Francoise duchesse de Chartres...
But the photo is still small, so it's difficult to see
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 08, 2009, 06:14:54 PM
A bigger version would be better. I think "The Last Courts Of Europe" had a version of that photo.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 08, 2009, 07:53:10 PM
A bigger version would be better. I think "The Last Courts Of Europe" had a version of that photo.

No, it is not in "Last Courts."
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: regensburg on April 17, 2009, 03:51:32 AM
Rhe internet is a wonderful source of material but at times it can be infuriatingly confusing. I have three images below which have different identifications. Can anyone help me to ascribe the proper name to the appropriate picture. Of course it may not be either of the two suggested identities.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/regensburg/cbbourchar1489-1537.jpg)

Charles Comte de Vendôme (1489-1537)
Charles III D of Montpensier (1489-1527)


(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/regensburg/cbrocheLudwik_I_1473-1520.jpg)
 
Louis I Prince de la Roche sur Yon (d 1520)
Louis  de Montpensier (1483-1501


(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/regensburg/cbbourjean1426.jpg)

Jean II Duc de Bourbon (1426-88)
Jean II Comte de Vendôme (1425-77)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on September 01, 2009, 03:19:48 PM
Wow! Shes Beaaautiful =] But I Doubt It Is Madame de Provence..She Was Thought To Be Very Unattractive..

It Could Be The Mother Of Louis Philippe I of the French ''Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon'' - Louise Marie Adélaïde Was A Beauty And One Of The First Patrons Of Vigée-Le Brun. 
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Marc on September 01, 2009, 06:07:09 PM
There are several women with the more or less the same motif in the portrait...if it is a Bourbon Princess I would take Princess Elisabeth Philippine de Bourbon(same hair,blue ribbon),sister of Louis XVI...but there are also similarities in dress,hair,flowers etc with the paintings of Countess Potocka or Princess von Salm-Kyrburg(they should be somewhere on the site too)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: RealAnastasia on September 04, 2009, 11:47:04 PM
I don't think it could be Countess of Provence. I've seen a lot of pics of her and she is not a bit similar to her. However, this lady has a lot of Duchess of Artois facial features. She was the younger sister of Countess of Provence but much more beatiful than her. Poor Countess of Provence was quite ugly, and her father lectured her by mail about her lacking of bath, washing of her teeth and body care. It seems that she couldn't get the way to make her husband like her.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on September 08, 2009, 02:28:18 AM
Yes, I have read also that the Countess de Provence was unattractive but not in this painting by Vigée-Le Brun

http://www.batguano.com/vigeeart125.html(http://)

here is Elizabeth of France
http://www.batguano.com/vlmelisaoval.jpg(http://)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: RealAnastasia on September 10, 2009, 11:18:36 PM
Yes. I knew both portraits . In Vigée Lebrun's painting Mme. de Provence is a lot flattered, even if you can affirm she is still not a beauty of her time. I know a lot other paintings of her, and she was not dinamite...Vigée Lebrun did the better she could to get her mildly beatiful.

And yes; the second painting represents Elizabeth , Louis XVI's sister. Since my favorite part of history is French Revolution I also knows many other paintings and garvures representing her. She is similar to the portrait showed first in this thread, but it is more similar to the facial features of Mme. of Artois. I'll try to post some pic of her, just to discuss a little further! :D

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on September 21, 2009, 06:30:09 PM
What beautiful Lady! Certainly I don't know who is she, is the first time that I see it.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on September 22, 2009, 08:24:49 PM
I have the same problem with this picture. According to several websites this is Charles, count of Berry (1686-1714), but in the book about Louis XIV
by Nancy Mitford he is Louis le grand Dauphin (1661-1711), so the father of Charles. Can someone help??

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/mardam/who.jpg)

this is not le Grand Dauphin but his youngest legitimate son, Charles de France (1686-1714)

he married his Orléans cousin, Marie Louise Élisabeth d'Orléans, favourite daughter of the Regent; they had three children but none of them lived over a year..:(

...

as for the other portraits, i dont have a clue lol
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on September 23, 2009, 01:45:46 AM
This is an interesting identification problem! Wikipedia shows this as Charles Duke of Berry however if you look at this painting of  Louis, Dauphin of France with his wife and family you can see this is the same man. He has three children and this is definitely Maria Anna of Bavaria. So, what do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duchess_Maria_Anna_Christina_Victoria_of_Bavaria,_%27la_Grande_Dauphine%27..jpg

Here is the Family Painting of the Dauphin in the middle of the page

http://www.louis-xiv.de/index.php?id=66
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on September 23, 2009, 09:43:00 PM
LOL! maria anna [i love her lol] is defo in thar pic..

and your quite right about Louis and his son charles...

i do think tiz charles though :P
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: King François X on September 30, 2009, 07:43:59 PM
This is a beautiful portait of a lady by Vigée-Le Brun...Do anyone know who she was?Could she be Gabrielle de Polignac or is she too young? Thank you


(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/martimjessfan/alady2.jpg)


I wonder if it is the Duchess's daughter,La Duchesse de Guiche?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on October 01, 2009, 02:21:59 AM
Duchesse de Guiche from the Vigee le Brun site listed under 1783 by Vigee Le Brun
http://www.batguano.com/vlbdeguiche.jpg

http://www.batguano.com/vigeepaints.htmlhttp://

 

According to this book I am reading about Rose Bertin styles came and went fast. 1781-1783 has been mentioned as the year the Rose became fashionable for the hair, before then it had been the elaborate hair with plumes.   In which case here is the Vigee Le Brun list for Clients She painted in 1781

1 Young girl smelling a rose
1 Mme Young
1 Count de Cosse
1 Princess de CroyesandArt Page 95 has a link
1 Mme de Saint-Alban andArt Page 26 link
1 M de Landry
[Vigee Le Brun made a journey into Flanders with husband and saw at Antwerp the famous "chapeau de paille" by Rubens which influenced self portrait"b" in 1782 - below]
2 Portraits of Mme Vigee Le Brun
[Self Portrait "#1" (Private collection) andArt Page 45]
[Self Portrait "#2" (Kimbell Art Museum, Texas) andArt Page 1]
[Self Portrait copy "#3", Metropolitan Museum, NY]andArt Page 82
1 Monsieur, brother of the King
1 Copy of same
1 Duchess de Chaulnes
1 Mme Dumoley
1 M Dumoley, the younger
1 Countess Du BarryArt Page 43 [French private collection] link
1 Sketch for a picture of Juno
1 Venus, study of a head
1 Mme d'Harvelay
5 Studies of heads
2 Mmle de Laborde
1 Mlle Devaronv
1 Mme Moreton
1 Copy of M Moreton
1 Mme de la Porte
3 Princess Lamballe, painting no. 1 andArt Page 128, painting no. 2 andArt Page 136 (included all these as further Paintings of the
painting no. 3 andArt Page 128                                                                            Princess Lamballe)
[Princess Lamballe Pastel] andArt Page 100
[Princess Lamballe] andArt Page 153

 In 1782 We have these two as possible Candidates:
1 Mme de Verdun
1 Mme de Chatenay

In 1783 We have this one as a possible Candidate: all others have links to look at their Paintings
1 Mlle Lavigne
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on October 01, 2009, 03:42:12 AM
I've looked at this Painting way too long but I throw out one more Candidate:
Countess de Fries 1793...look at the right curl, the shape of the eyebrows and the hands

http://www.batguano.com/ctesdefries.jpg
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Rani on May 22, 2010, 06:14:03 PM
From ebay:

The seller wasn´t sure who these now are

Ferdinand Alencon

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/1882philipp.jpg)

A Francoise of Orleans with child 1875

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/FrancoiseofOrleanschild1875.jpg)

And two unknown Orleans princesses

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/p8263.jpg)

So what do you think??

Thanks
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on May 22, 2010, 07:15:45 PM
I think that they are not royals at all.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Rani on May 23, 2010, 09:34:40 AM
The women have the Orleans nose. Hmm..
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 23, 2010, 01:12:00 PM
i have the orleans nose and im not orleans. Im with Veronica,. they re probably not royals at all
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Rani on May 23, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
Okay :)

If there are no more photos or other clues, I accept it.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on May 26, 2010, 02:43:36 AM
The first Photograph is Ferdinand d'Alencon
Ferdinand Philippe Marie Duc d'Alençon was the second son of  Louis Charles Philippe Raphael, Duc de Nemours and Victoria, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. He was born on 12 July 1844 in Neuilly-sur-Seine and died on 29 June 1910 in Belmont, Wimbledon.
He married Sophie in Bavaria on 28 September 1868 at Possenhofen, had a daughter called Louise and a son called Emmanuel.
see Jan. 24 2006 post 4th post down has photograph as teenager...

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=5960.0

http://www.hussards-photos.com/Espagne/Espagne_CDV_ComtedEu.htm[url]] (http://[/url)

http://www.hussards-photos.com/Espagne/Espagne_CDV_ComtedEu.htmhttp://

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0385/m505205_ph-830-scan_p.jpghttp://


Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 01, 2010, 06:41:50 AM
I think that they are not royals at all.

I agree. In my opinion the young man isn't Ferdinand d'Alençon.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 01, 2010, 06:45:28 AM
I found these pictures in Michael of Greece's new book about the Orléans. The children are identified as "niece and nephew of the Duke d'Aumale" - but what are their names? Are they children of Antoine de Montpensier?

(http://s7.directupload.net/images/100514/temp/9s2w3leo.jpg) (http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2159/9s2w3leo_jpg.htm)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Veronica on June 01, 2010, 06:45:31 PM
The girl looks like Francoise de Joinville, future Duchess of Chartres:

(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5294/copiadefrancoisejoinvil.jpg)

And the boy looks like one of the Duke d'Aumale's sons, the prince of Conde

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3049/princedeconde9537.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on June 09, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
From ebay:
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/FrancoiseofOrleanschild1875.jpg)
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/p8263.jpg)

These two are clearly the same two girls and greatly resemble Clementine Saxe-Coburg's daughters. I'm not sure they are though. Perhaps the person who id'ed them just noticed the resemblance..

The boy is not Alencon in my opinion.

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on June 09, 2010, 12:49:03 PM
MC, thanks so much for sharing those great images from Prince Michael's book!!! I still don't have it.

I agree with Veronica about their identifications.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 10, 2010, 03:53:06 AM
These two are clearly the same two girls and greatly resemble Clementine Saxe-Coburg's daughters. I'm not sure they are though. Perhaps the person who id'ed them just noticed the resemblance..

Yes, there is a great resemblance. But the photographer, A. Ken, is totally unknown to me. I guess most pictures of Clémentine's children were taken by Angerer and other famous studios like Adele.

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on June 18, 2010, 03:27:25 AM
No its not Alencon he has a very distinctive nose... I was going after the Comte d' Eu and its probably not him either but he is the one with the large round face and similar hairstyle! That's why the photographs are of the Comte except for the first one...I can't think how I got the name wrong except I should probably not post after 12 a.m. (smiley)!
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: gogm on August 13, 2010, 02:52:20 PM
There were a number of Princesses de Condé in the 1700s. Which one is this?

(http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: gogm on August 13, 2010, 02:55:14 PM
Trying again...

http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html (http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: CountessKate on August 14, 2010, 05:25:12 AM
It's a short of shepherdess outfit, so it's hard to date the picture from the clothes, but the hair seems to put it somewhere from the mid 1740s to the mid 1760s (when hair started to climb, at least that's what's indicated in my book 'La coiffure en France du Moyen Age a nos jours').  It is possible therefore that it's Charlotte Élisabeth Godefride de Rohan, wife of Louis Joseph de Bourbon, prince de Condé.  She died in 1760, but as he didn't marry again until 1798, it isn't likely to be his second wife - fashions would have changed dramatically.  It is possible that it is Louis Joseph's mother, Landgravine Caroline of Hesse-Rotenburg, who died in 1741, but the hairstyle suggests the woman would have lived a little later than her.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on August 14, 2010, 06:29:50 AM
Here is Caroline of Hesse- Rotenburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karoline,_Landgr%C3%A4fin_von_Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg.jpg
and here is Charlotte Elizabeth de Rohan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Charlotte_%C3%89lisabeth_Godefride_de_Rohan_as_Princess_of_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Nattier.jpg
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: gogm on August 14, 2010, 08:22:58 PM
You got right to the problem. Karoline and Charlotte-Élisabeth look similar. Karoline lived from 1714 to 1741, Charlotte-Élisabeth from 1737-1760. The eyebrows of the mystery Princess Condé are closer to those of Charlotte-Élisabeth.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on August 19, 2010, 07:25:54 AM
It may not even be a Princess of Condé!? I'm thinking it could be the Louise Adélaïde de Bourbon, daughter of the above mentioned Louis Joseph and Charlotte de Rohan. Louise Adélaïde was styled Mademoiselle de Condé, but some sources foolishly call her the princess of Condé, so it could be her! Also the clothing suits her lifetime (1757-1824).

Also Louis Joseph did not marry until the late 1790's...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Rani on October 11, 2010, 08:19:12 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/unbekannt-1.jpg)

Mentioned as Philipe of Orleans. But don´t think so.
Thanks for helping
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2010, 08:25:50 AM
Henri d`orleans, his cousin

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri,_Pr%C3%ADncipe_de_Orl%C3%A9ans
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Rani on October 11, 2010, 08:35:31 AM
Thanks!!

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Eurohistory on November 29, 2010, 10:38:25 AM
Yes this is Prince Henri d'Orléans, second, but oldest surviving son of the Duke de Chartres and of his wife Françoise d'Orléans-Joinville. Henri was a famous explorer, but fbefore finding fulfillment in traveling the seven seas, he caused his parents many a headache due to his enormous gambling debts. The Duke de Chartres had to pay so much to settle these debts, that he was unable to provide as much as he wanted for his youngest son, the Duke de Guise, when Prince Jean married his first cousin Princess Isabelle of France.

Henri died untimely during one of his exploratory journeys. beloved by the family, in spite of his many failings, his brother named his own only son, Henri (1908-1999), in honor of his departed older brother. This second henri was better known as The Count of Paris, Head of House France from 1940-1999.

http://erhj.blogspot.com/2010/11/worthy-association-louis-philippe.html

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Bourgogne on January 01, 2011, 08:20:31 PM
Trying again...

http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html (http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html)


Well, this portrait by Drouais was former supposed to be Charlotte-Godefride de Rohan, princesse de Condé.

But it was a false identification.

It's Marie-Louise-Elisabeth de Maillé, comtesse de Sorans (1742-1812). She was lady in waiting of Madame Clotilde and later of Madame Elisabeth, the two sisters of Louis XVI... The portrait was made in 1763, she was 21 y.o.
 
Original version - the version you have is a copy, a little clumsy ;-)

(http://img.roglo.eu/~C.Maubois/marielouiseelisabethdemaille2.jpg)
 

By the way, there is one other point :

- "Here is Caroline of Hesse- Rotenburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karoline,_Landgr%C3%A4fin_von_Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg.jpg
and here is Charlotte Elizabeth de Rohan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Charlotte_%C3%89lisabeth_Godefride_de_Rohan_as_Princess_of_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Nattier.jpg"

- "You got right to the problem. Karoline and Charlotte-Élisabeth look similar."

There is a reason for this : the portrait shown as Charlotte de Rohan on wikipédia, is not her, but Caroline of Hesse-Rotenburg... The old inscription on the picture is a mistake. It's the curator of the musée Condé of Chantilly, Nicole Garnier-Pelle, who wrote me this information...
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Marc on January 02, 2011, 03:42:59 AM
I guess someone will reveal the truth...Thank you for this information...There is also another speculation about this image:

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg/103px-Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg

http://www.geneall.net/D/per_page.php?id=4963

Sometimes it's labeled as Marie Anne de Bourbon-Conde and sometimes as Caroline von Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg...who is it in the end?
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Mari on January 02, 2011, 05:43:54 AM
Thank you Burgogne for finally identifying the Painting! That was quite a little mystery and explains a lot about the confusion if both of the other Paintings were the same Person!  :)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Bourgogne on January 02, 2011, 02:19:47 PM


I guess someone will reveal the truth...Thank you for this information...There is also another speculation about this image:

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg/103px-Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg

http://www.geneall.net/D/per_page.php?id=4963

Sometimes it's labeled as Marie Anne de Bourbon-Conde and sometimes as Caroline von Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg...who is it in the end?


Thank you Burgogne for finally identifying the Painting! That was quite a little mystery and explains a lot about the confusion if both of the other Paintings were the same Person!  Smiley

Marc I had noticed too this other speculation, and also checked it with the musée Condé de Chantilly : it's definitively Marie-Anne de Bourbon-Condé, not Caroline de Hesse-Rhinfels! Geneall.net is wrong, for once...

Mari you're welcome ;-)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: CountessKate on May 07, 2013, 04:55:15 AM
The following portrait is being sold at Bonhams as "Studio of François Hubert Drouais" and described as "A portrait of a child of the royal family, half-length, wearing the Order of the Holy Spirit and the Order of the Golden Fleece, thought to be Charles Philippe of France".  However, it's clear that the boy has blue eyes, and the portraits of Charles Philippe of France, Comte d'Artois and later Charles X, show him to have brown eyes.  From their portraits, the eldest brother, the short-lived Duc de Bourgogne, had brown eyes, the Comte de Provence, later Louis XVIII, also had brown eyes, and in fact the only boy in that family who had blue eyes was the Duc de Berry, Louis XVI.  I can't think of any boy of that age who would have been wearing the orders of the Holy Spirit and the Golden Fleece except one of the lineal descendants of Louis XV, and the costume seems a miniature version of the costume in the portraits of Berry, Provence and Artois as teenagers.  I don't think it's their father, the Dauphin, either since the wig in his portraits at roughly the same age is different.  So I think this is in fact Louis Auguste, Duc de Berry and later Louis XVI - what do others think?

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/Miscl/Princeanon_zps91ef2e12.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/cfarnon/media/Miscl/Princeanon_zps91ef2e12.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Bourgogne on April 10, 2014, 12:17:22 PM
The following portrait is being sold at Bonhams as "Studio of François Hubert Drouais" and described as "A portrait of a child of the royal family, half-length, wearing the Order of the Holy Spirit and the Order of the Golden Fleece, thought to be Charles Philippe of France".  However, it's clear that the boy has blue eyes, and the portraits of Charles Philippe of France, Comte d'Artois and later Charles X, show him to have brown eyes.  From their portraits, the eldest brother, the short-lived Duc de Bourgogne, had brown eyes, the Comte de Provence, later Louis XVIII, also had brown eyes, and in fact the only boy in that family who had blue eyes was the Duc de Berry, Louis XVI.  I can't think of any boy of that age who would have been wearing the orders of the Holy Spirit and the Golden Fleece except one of the lineal descendants of Louis XV, and the costume seems a miniature version of the costume in the portraits of Berry, Provence and Artois as teenagers.  I don't think it's their father, the Dauphin, either since the wig in his portraits at roughly the same age is different.  So I think this is in fact Louis Auguste, Duc de Berry and later Louis XVI - what do others think?

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/Miscl/Princeanon_zps91ef2e12.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/cfarnon/media/Miscl/Princeanon_zps91ef2e12.jpg.html)

I reply very late, but anyway... :-) Yes, it's indeed a delightful portrait of the duke of Berry, later Louis XVI, in 1760, by Jean-Martial Frédou. There is another version of this portrait in Versailles, with a "pendant" showing his older brother the duke of Burgundy...

http://www.latribunedelart.com/deux-portraits-de-jean-martial-fredou-acquis-par-versailles

Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Bourgogne on April 10, 2014, 02:01:28 PM
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/LesOrlansenAngleterre.jpg)

Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.

REMI


Thanks a lot. I agree with you, but I am also not sure about this lady next to Clémentine.

I think this certainly looks to be the Princess of Joinville. She looks quite a bit like her daughter Francoise as well.

If that doesnt tip the scales...the women seems far too young to be the Duchess d'Orleans, who was 10 years older than the Princess de Joinville.



I would like to come back about this picture.

First, this picture was not made about 1855, but about 1865. This, for very simple reasons :

The little girl on the duke of Nemours' knees is his second daughter Blanche, born in 1857. The first daughter Marguerite, later princess Czartoryski, born in 1846, is the last lady standing on the right.

The last lady sitting on the right is not Clémentine, but Isabelle, countess of Paris, who married his first cousin in 1864.

(Btw the boy is not the prince of Condé but the duke of Guise, born in 1854)

Ok... But WHO is the lady sitting near Isabelle? This is my question. I can't believe it's the princess of Joinville, I don't recognize her features, and she would be at least 40 y.o., while this lady seems to be rather young. Could it be her daughter the duchess of Chartres, who married his first cousin in 1863? Maybe. But I don't find it very convincing, because she had a little mouth, and this lady seems to have a more large mouth...

Then who...?

Here a better version :

(https://sn.altesses.eu/DSC02264.JPG)


Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:03:14 AM
Posted by Prince Michel de Grece on his blog: The french royal family after the  death of queen Marie Amélie:

(https://67.media.tumblr.com/0641ba906f409c08022de326e4d2989e/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo1_1280.jpg)

Need help for idendification !! I will post closeups found on tumblr.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:05:59 AM
(http://67.media.tumblr.com/19d608629802f15a632638fe1f4469dd/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo2_1280.jpg)

??, ??, duchesse d'Aumale, princesse de Salerne (mother of duchess d'Aumale, not sure), ??, princesse et prince de Joinville, duc de Nemours (or duc d'Aumale)

right click and show picture for bigger image.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:14:02 AM
(http://67.media.tumblr.com/646abdce37514dfa99fe66827edd69f6/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo3_1280.jpg)

Queen Victoria (not sure) Clémentine d'Orléans (not sure), ?? (maybe Ferdinand, later tsar of Bulgaria), duchesse et duc de Chartres.
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:16:17 AM
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/1836a6a30dd0ae3a8c73bc61ec509df0/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo4_540.jpg)

Duc d'Aumale, ??, ??
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:17:38 AM
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/63c4042d0d1f50234f85a754a334cb57/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo5_500.jpg)

??, ??, Comte de Paris, ??, ??, ??, ??
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: mikka-f on August 18, 2016, 05:21:28 AM
(http://66.media.tumblr.com/90a9eeee96339ceab276a89c69374bd9/tumblr_o87bq3WPOS1qiu1coo6_1280.jpg)

??, August of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, ??, ??, Marguerite d'Orléans (not sure) ??, little girl: Blanche d'Orléans, not sure too.

Thanks.

There are a lot of pictures, some never see for me, on Prince Michel blog about his family, danish russian, greek and french royalty.

http://www.princemichaelschronicles.com/category/family-portraits/ (http://www.princemichaelschronicles.com/category/family-portraits/)
Title: Re: Identification,please
Post by: Marc on July 12, 2019, 06:21:26 AM
Does anyone know which Princess Maria Luisa is this?

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/pierre-piget-1907-1990-portrait-de-la-princesse-8db4a69a8c