Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Maria Nicholaievna => Topic started by: jenya on January 16, 2007, 07:59:20 PM

Title: Was Maria sad?
Post by: jenya on January 16, 2007, 07:59:20 PM
I don't have much time to post, so this will have to be a quick suggestion and I will discuss it further lately if anyone proves interested.

I have often wondered if Maria was a slightly sad child, lacking self-confidence. I know she is generally presented as being gay and flirtatious, but so many of the anecdotes about her involve her being alone, being bullied by her older sisters, teased by her parents, or playing second fiddle in the background to Anastasia. We have letters from her mother which show a child who feels isolated and with low self-esteem. She looks so sad, or wistful, or remote in many photos. In some photos and videos of public ocassions, she looks rather overwhelmed. 

I am saddened too by evidence in letters and memoirs that not as much attention was paid to her illnesses and recovery than to those of the other children. For example, there are no photos of Alexandra sitting knitting by her sickbed. A letter to her mother while she is recovering from illness notes that Alexandra hadn't even visited her that day. I studied the Romanovs for years and it was only last year I learned Maria almost died from her tonsil operation, although I knew about the other childrens' various illnesses and injuries.

Perhaps I am reading things into her character which aren't there. Perhaps I am blowing "middle child syndrome" out of proportion. I wonder what other people think of this theory. (Please don't laugh too loudly!)

Jenya.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Holly on January 16, 2007, 09:42:51 PM
She definetley did feel left out when she was younger, but I think she felt better as she got older and came into herself and developed more of a personality. Olga, Tatiana, and Anastasia got the most attention I think when they were younger and she felt unloved and unwanted because of that. As for the pictures, I haven't seen one of Anastasia and Alexandra by her sickbed either. There are a lot of pictures we havent seen before so who knows if there isn't one of Maria? I learned of Maria's tonsil operation the first year of my Romanov studying. She also was very close to dying in 1917. I can relate to Maria a lot, as I am a middle child also and had similar issues when I was at the same age. But, I'm very sure Maria's insecurities about being unloved are unfounded in general. They loved her the same as the others. Part of the problem was that since she felt unloved and unwanted, she stayed with Irina instead of her sisters.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 17, 2007, 07:06:49 AM
Perhaps I am blowing "middle child syndrome" out of proportion.

That is exactly what I believe you are doing. Of course Maria felt left out at times, what child hasn't felt that way at some point when growing up? I think it is a bit unreasonable to suggest that Maria somehow felt it more than most children. As for the notes, there was another discussion in the "Maria's Notes" thread that went into the whole note issue. Read the last page or two in that section. I have been to the Russian archives, and I can tell you from my experience that I have never found anything to suggest that Maria grew up feeling "more sad" than anyone else in her family. It wasn't like there was note after note of feeling left out. Personally, I believe she was a normal, healthy girl who shared a close relationship with both parents and all four of her siblings who, like every child, had moments of feeling unloved and left out. Nothing unusual.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 17, 2007, 12:31:53 PM
I think that Marie was a fairly happy child. She was the middle child, and I am sure some of the things associated with that did play a role in her life. But, I think it is being stereotypical to assume that she was left out or whatever. It is, as I must have said before reading too much into the past through modern interpretations. Marie did indeed have more of a personality when she was older, and was pretty cheerful at that age, and there is little evidence to suggest she was anything but happy, unlike Olga at times when she was older.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 17, 2007, 01:11:37 PM
i'm sure the girls all felt left at at some point in their lives
but yes, she was happy as a little girl, but i think she grew up into her self when she was older

i think it has to do with her being in the middle of everybody!

there was Olga+Tatiana Marie Anastasia+Alexei
she was lets say "tag along" sometimes

but other than that, i think they were all happy, i mean there is sometimes when i feel left
out of my family!
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 17, 2007, 02:58:32 PM
Marie was surrounded on either side by very energetic and personable sisters and a brother who was not only sickly but also the heir.  Unfortunately for Marie, her personality was more conventional, calm and even than her siblings' and less likely to stand out.  She was a happy, healthy girl who gave no reason for her parents to turn an extra amount of attention to her.  Olga was moody and sometimes needed extra patience, Tatiana was driven and attracted the popular attention of the public, and Anastasia was rambunctions and needed to be curbed.  Maria was there, happy and sweet, giving her parents little trouble.  Like all children, she must have at times wished she stood out more but sadness or moodiness was not part of personality and she seemed to willingly accept her place in the family.  She probably liked being known as the "angel."         
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 17, 2007, 03:15:37 PM
great definition (sp) of Marie!
thats what i meant by being in the middle!

she probably was told what to do, and did it, no questions asked.
but i think she changed over the years. do you agree?
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 17, 2007, 03:39:03 PM
I think she liked being known as the angel as well. She wasn't unhappy with her place in the family, she actually did not have such a bad place. Among other things, she had a fairly cheerful nature, and as a child doesn't seem at unhappy from antcedotes, and she is a sweet happy little girl in photos. It is totally against her basic personality to suggest that she was sad, or whatever. She would have been perplexed about people saying such things. I think saying that she might have been sad/left out as the middle child is like that theory that Anastasia acted out as she did because she wasn't happy. But, of course that might have the simpler explanation that that was her personality. There might be more there though than there is in the contention that Marie was ever sad. But, it is easy to over analyze.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 17, 2007, 03:40:48 PM
    I agree with Holly,Imperial angel and grandduchess _42. Maria did feel lonly and left out when she was a little girl.  Her sisters were When she got older she began to feel happier, had more personality and confort she had stayed with Irina. Even though I am not the middle child in my family,I think it probaly was something she had to go through in childhood life [phases]. But for Olga in her early adulthood years she was depressed,sad because of what happened in world war II millions of russian soldiers were killed, lost, wounded and taken away from the russians  and turned into prisoners. Olga also had difficulty with getting along with her mother Alix they offten argued and quarreled. Plus she was the only grand duchesses who new how much her family was in danger. :)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 17, 2007, 03:54:16 PM
But for Olga in her early adulthood years she was depressed,sad because of what happened in world war II millions of russian soldiers were killed, lost, wounded and taken away from the russians  and turned into prisoners.

I think you meant WWI.   

Olga also had difficulty with getting along with her mother Alix they offten argued and quarreled.

I strongly disagree that Olga and her mother often "argued and quarreled." Other than Alexandra complaining in a couple of letters about Olga being moody and disagreeable during WWI (which isn't too shocking considering what Olga was witnessing as a nurse) there really isn't a whole heck of a lot to suggest that they didn't get along. Letters and diary entries show how close Olga and Alexandra really were. I saw some of Olga's writings in the archives, and she described her mother as "an angel." There were some examples here on the AP site of Olga's letters and so forth in which she wrote quite lovingly about her mother, but I haven't been able to find them since the site's makeover.

Plus she was the only grand duchesses who new how much her family was in danger. :)

Again, there is no real evidence of that.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 17, 2007, 04:57:46 PM
         Oh!! sorry I meant to say world war I. When I said that Olga often argued with Alix, did sometimes but not often. I get German confused with English sometimes. Thanks for letting me know Raegan I made a mistake. I should realy look at her letters on the Alexander palace. The part where it says Olga's letters in exile. But I read on a website about Olga that she knew the dangers of here family. Its probaly just someone guessing thing on what they think about her relationship with Alix or the person made a mistake. :)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 17, 2007, 05:07:16 PM
I get German confused with English sometimes. Thanks for letting me know Raegan I made a mistake.

I was not aware that English is not your native language. It is sometimes hard to tell who doesn't know it well or who is a native speaker who doesn't care to use proper English and post like they are in a chat room. Don't get discouraged in learning the language. You are doing a good job.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Elizaveta on January 17, 2007, 05:12:32 PM
I think you're overthinking about the issue of Marie being the middle child, Jenya. From what I've read (and seen pictures), Marie seemed a perfectly normal girl who happened to be behaving expectionally well, thus giving her parents far less reasons to be anxious about Marie than her sisters. And don't forget, in the last few months before the IF's murder, of all four daughters, Alexandra decided to take Marie with her to their last so-called home. She could have taken Olga, being intelligent, or even Tatiana, being the most level-headed of all and the favorite of her mother, but yet she chose Marie, the family's "sweet angel." It should've really given Marie something to be proud of: the fact that during the time of great danger, her mother trusted her enough to have her accompanying Alexandra. Marie was a sweet young woman who only strived to be good and trustworthy; I did not think she had any ambition to outstage her sisters. Marie seemed to be someone who would be content to be standing in the corner and let everybody be a center of attention. Of course, she had all infamous "middle child symptoms" during her lifetime, but all of those symptoms were--and still are--definitely normal for all middle children. She was just a normal middle child who happened to be a Grand Duchess of Russia, born to a family of five children, most of whom had strong personalities. I suppose it's the fact she's a royal made it very easy for observers to examine every and each detail of her life as a middle child.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 17, 2007, 10:12:23 PM
 Speaking in different languages sometimes bring confusion. I try my best to use proper english grammer.Im starting to be very fluent in english. German is not a hard language to learn it just take studing,praticing and concetration I speak it well rather fluently. Plural and Singular words, simple, subjects, predicates and preposition is what were doing in school now our language arts teacher wants use to improve in writting and talking informaly. I believe it helps us become more fluent in english. :)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 17, 2007, 10:35:59 PM
Plus she was the only grand duchesses who new how much her family was in danger. :)

Again, there is no real evidence of that.
There is evidence in memoirs of the courtiers that Olga was the most affected of OTMA by the revolution, but as Raegan said, nothing to my knowledge explicitly states that she knew they were in mortal danger.

Buxhoeveden:
"The horror of the Revolution told on her more keenly than on any of the others. She changed completely, and all her bright spirits disappeared."
[....]
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!"
[....]
"Olga Nicholaevna was in a state of great anxiety. She longed to join her parents, for whose fate she trembled, and, on the other hand, she feared the move for her brother, both on account of his health and also for fear of what the move might lead to."



I was quite sure Gilliard had mentioned Olga's awareness of the revolution as well, but I haven't been able to find the exact quote so far. At any rate, there's already a thread or two in the Olga Nikolaevna board that discusses this issue more fully.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 17, 2007, 10:45:25 PM
At any rate, there's already a thread or two in the Olga Nikolaevna board that discusses this issue more fully.

Here's one: Olga knew what was going to happen (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8084.45.html)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 18, 2007, 06:03:38 AM
 Thanks Sarushka!! for finding me a thread discussed about Olga knew what was going to happen. :D
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 18, 2007, 05:47:05 PM
aw poor olga

sarushka was that true what marie said in the middle quote?
Plus she was the only grand duchesses who new how much her family was in danger. :)

Again, there is no real evidence of that.
There is evidence in memoirs of the courtiers that Olga was the most affected of OTMA by the revolution, but as Raegan said, nothing to my knowledge explicitly states that she knew they were in mortal danger.

Buxhoeveden:
"The horror of the Revolution told on her more keenly than on any of the others. She changed completely, and all her bright spirits disappeared."
[....]
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!"
[....]
"Olga Nicholaevna was in a state of great anxiety. She longed to join her parents, for whose fate she trembled, and, on the other hand, she feared the move for her brother, both on account of his health and also for fear of what the move might lead to."



I was quite sure Gilliard had mentioned Olga's awareness of the revolution as well, but I haven't been able to find the exact quote so far. At any rate, there's already a thread or two in the Olga Nikolaevna board that discusses this issue more fully.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 19, 2007, 10:15:33 AM
sarushka was that true what marie said in the middle quote?
Buxhoeveden:
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!"
It appears that Maria did indeed say that. The quote appears in Isa Buxhoeveden's biography of Alix (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/2006alix/), and also in The House of Special Purpose (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=9). Gibbes lived with the IF in Tobolsk, and made notes of his impressions of each family member. 20 months later, he gave a more formal version to a magistrate in Ekaterinburg. So if you trust Gibbes' memory (and there's no real reason you shouldn't in this instance) it's very likely true.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 19, 2007, 05:32:41 PM
oh ok thank you Sarushka!

i wonder what the big pair thought of that comment!
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 19, 2007, 05:51:25 PM
oh ok thank you Sarushka!

i wonder what the big pair thought of that comment!

There's no record of the big pair responding to Maria's comment. It's possible that Maria said it only to Gibbes himself and her older sisters never knew about it.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 19, 2007, 05:55:47 PM
true!
thanks again sarushka!
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 21, 2007, 08:06:13 PM
Given the closeness of the girls, I find it hard the others would not have known of Maria's sentiments about Tobolsk.  They may have even echoed it.  When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 21, 2007, 08:50:31 PM
When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   

I can definitely agree with that. I don't even find Maria's remark all that sad. It's fairly safe to assume that the IF didn't enjoy being held captive, but it must have been nice in a sense to be allowed to simply be a family for once. Nicholas certainly seemed to enjoy being free from his official obligations. He even mentions in his diary that he's finally able to catch up on his reading...
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 22, 2007, 10:33:43 AM
I have read that quote before, and find it very easy to believe that she said that. It sounds like something Marie would say. She was always indeed the girl who loved home, who would have been quite happy with a simple kind of life, despite her status. It's not sad at all, it is merely that perhaps Tobolsk seemed more settled for her than their previous months at the Alexander Palace had been. It must have seemed nice to have things be settled for a while. I think that's why she made that remark. As well, she didn't know the future, it was uncertain, and in this uncertainty, as long as they were in Tobolsk, things might have seemed more certain.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Elisabeth on January 23, 2007, 12:49:34 PM
When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   

I can definitely agree with that. I don't even find Maria's remark all that sad. It's fairly safe to assume that the IF didn't enjoy being held captive, but it must have been nice in a sense to be allowed to simply be a family for once. Nicholas certainly seemed to enjoy being free from his official obligations. He even mentions in his diary that he's finally able to catch up on his reading...

I disagree, actually. It's either in Gibbes's account or in one of Nicholas's diary entries (I think the latter), where he records on one winter's day how the city's youth were speeding past the Governor's Mansion in troikas or sleighs, bells merrily ringing, while OTMA stood at the windows and watched sadly. After their happy years at Tsarskoe Selo, years that seem to have been spent in an endless round of social engagements, there's no question but that the children of the last tsar were plagued by serious bouts of boredom and even depression during their imprisonment in Tobolsk. As I recall, that's basically what Alexei recorded in his diary day after day during the entire period of their captivity in the Siberian town: "Boring!" and "Same as yesterday."
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Sarushka on January 23, 2007, 01:56:49 PM
I definitely don't contest that there were periods of boredom, depression, and uncertainty during the IF's tenure in Siberia. Maria said she'd content to remain in Tobolsk, but that shouldn't be construed to mean that she was unaffected by her status as a prisoner. (And for the record, I realize Elisabeth said nothing of the sort -- I'm just using her post as a spring board.) IMO, if Maria was allowed to be a normal citizen of Tobolsk, free from imperial obligation, and free from her family's captors, she might very well have been content to spend her life there. I think that's likely all she meant -- not that she wouldn't mind spending her life under guard in the governor's mansion.


I would still argue that there was a sort of relief for NAOTMAA in being freed from the scrutiny and obligations of royalty, although it was certainly offset to a significant degree by by their immediate arrest. It's a case of trading one type of stress for another, and one type of freedom for another. The Romanovs shed the stress of being held responsible for the nation at the same time they took on the difficult and limiting role as prisoners. The situation has a certain similarity to the way many caretakers often feel when a beloved relative dies after a long illness -- bereft and grief-stricken, yet relieved that both their own responsibility and the victim's suffering are over.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 23, 2007, 04:49:33 PM
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children. Tobolsk was not the best place to be, but it might have seemed a calm in a interval of the storm. More than that, there were no memories there for either Marie or any other Romanovs. They were living the present, unlike how it had been when they were still in their palaces, when they must have been only too aware of the contrast between the life they had lived in these very same surroundings, and their life now. Marie was most likely the least unaffected of the girls by the conditions of their imprisonment in my opinion.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 23, 2007, 07:56:18 PM
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children.

Good point.  Golden cage, iron cage.  Didn't matter because they never were "free."  Boredom had to happen, but it certainly also happened when they were still the IF.   
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 24, 2007, 06:45:51 AM
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children.

I disagree. Of course the children were sheltered to a certain extend given their positions, but I really don't think you can compare their lives before the revolution to imprisonment! Remember their world before their father's abdication -- they went to ballets, small parties and traveled throughout the year to places they enjoyed. I *do* think that captivity would have been a great shock to them, despite how well they may have handled it.

Quote
Golden cage, iron cage.


I think there is a big difference between the two.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: matushka on January 24, 2007, 03:52:49 PM
Maria's remark remains me an Olga's remark reported in 1916 by Valentina Chebotareva. "Olga Nicholaevna's dreams about happiness: to marry, have a lot of children, live in the province. No obligations, nothing official". Let us also remember letters to their family in the Crimea where they said they are satisfied with their lige in Tobolsk (was that to tranquilize relatives? To tranquilize the censure?) We should add that they had already the habit to be not so free as it seems to be. Conversations were listened (see Vyroubova, Chebotareva), security's agents were always by there steps, roads where they drive, church where they go all was prepared, all around soldiers or agents.
But they could allow them a lot. After the Revolution, very few. I am sure the simple fact they could not go outside was terribly difficult for all. They had all an incredible self-control and a real christian hope on God and it is probably what help them to find something good in this Tobolsk's life.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 24, 2007, 04:58:00 PM
Yes, when they were still in power the IF travelled and went to parties and ballets, etc.  But that does not mean the girls were free.  They were never left alone, and were considerably stifled to the extent they were socially stunted (there are descriptions of them as teens acting like little children, etc.)  Life in Tobolsk, in close quarters with parents and heavily reliant on a schedule would not have been so different. 

This topic has been discussed at length elsewhere on the forum.  Look especially close at the Olga thread.  Also, King and Wilson give an accurate assessment of the cloistered life of OTMAA in "Fate of the Romanovs" in their initial chapters.   
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 24, 2007, 05:27:46 PM
Yes, when they were still in power the IF travelled and went to parties and ballets, etc.  But that does not mean the girls were free.  They were never left alone, and were considerably stifled to the extent they were socially stunted (there are descriptions of them as teens acting like little children, etc.)

What do you mean "they were never left alone?" Do you think they would have been allowed to roam the streets of St. Petersburg unattended? Can you elaborate please? And if I remember correctly, there was only one description of them speaking like children, and it was never quite clear what was meant by that statement. There was a thread on this very subject. Going by their letters, diaries, and the way they handled themselves during the war, I don't believe they behaved like children to the extend some make it out to be.

Life in Tobolsk, in close quarters with parents and heavily reliant on a schedule would not have been so different.

Okay, let me get this straight, you are saying that their life of travel, social events, etc was not much different than being held against their will in Tobolsk? 

This topic has been discussed at length elsewhere on the forum.  Look especially close at the Olga thread.  Also, King and Wilson give an accurate assessment of the cloistered life of OTMAA in "Fate of the Romanovs" in their initial chapters.   

I tend to go by letters, diaries and other written work before I do a biography since it is someone else's opinion and not always fact. Oh, and I did take part in the Olga threads, take a close look at the last couple of pages in the "Feel Sorry for Olga" thread. I know that from my own personal research in the archives (plus already published work such as A Lifelong Passion) I found OTMA to be four healthy, happy young girls who enjoyed the world they were born into.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 25, 2007, 09:37:01 AM
Well, whatever the truth of this issue, it seems Marie would not have been the type to be bothered too much about this kind of life, as much as some other members of her family. In addition, it seems that their imprisonment in Tobolsk was not as as bad as later. When they were free, they still were not, that's a good point. Yet, in in imprisonment, it seems they were even less free, but for Marie, I would tend to believe that was less of an issue than you might think. Of course, part of how they regarded these days had to fit in with how they regarded their future.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Raegan on January 25, 2007, 10:21:15 AM
Well, whatever the truth of this issue, it seems Marie would not have been the type to be bothered too much about this kind of life, as much as some other members of her family. In addition, it seems that their imprisonment in Tobolsk was not as as bad as later.

That is true. It is sad when one thinks of the letter Maria penned to her siblings after she had arrived in Ekaterinburg. She mentioned how life in their new prison was dreadful, and how she missed the "quiet" life in Tobolsk. I don't have my notes or books on me at the moment, but I believe this letter is in A Lifelong Passion.

When they were free, they still were not, that's a good point. Yet, in in imprisonment, it seems they were even less free, but for Marie, I would tend to believe that was less of an issue than you might think. Of course, part of how they regarded these days had to fit in with how they regarded their future.

Prior to the revolution, they were not "free" in the sense that they could go wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. That is just common sense given their positions. I suppose you can compare it to the children of a president. But it is absurd to compare their world before the abdication to imprisonment. There is no comparison. Imagine attending events, traveling to places you loved and actually having a life and then you are forced into imprisonment and the world you had known all your life no longer exist. I believe that would come as a great shock to anyone.

Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: imperial angel on January 25, 2007, 10:34:27 AM
Indeed, it was a contrast. I think that Marie's remark should be seen in light of what she knew of their past imprisonment in the Alexander palace, and also in light of what she might have seen as their future, which she most likely didn't have much sense of, or speculate about it. Yet, she was the most accepting of the sisters perhaps, as she had such a unassuming personality. But, I think the remark really should be taken in context.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Jarian on February 04, 2007, 10:48:28 AM
Well they were an uneven group usually someone would be left out, Mostly Olga and Tatiana were together and Anastasia was on and off with Maria and Alexei probably and knowing the attitude of Anastasia she was quiet bossy
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 06:51:33 PM
I always thought that Marie seemed like the happiest child, second to Anastasia. Olga is the one seemed sad to me.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 19, 2007, 08:58:26 PM
its possible that Maria could have suffered from mild depression from time to time...it happens to everyone...
at one point in their lives...also maria seemed different from her sisters....i mean to me it always seemed she longed for a simple life....away from the pomp and splendor...i can also see how her crushes on men that weren't fit for her would make her sad... ::)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: mr_harrison75 on May 19, 2007, 09:56:10 PM
I think that Mariya was not the only one to long for a simpler life; think about Olga, and her crushes on Voronov, and Chakh-Bagov...I don't know for sure if Chakh-Bagov loved her, but Voronov did, so you can imagine how sad both have been. By the way, did Mariya spoke of her crushes somewhere?

Mariya's goal in life had nothing to do at all with royalty; I strongly suspect she would've done like her aunt Olga Alexandrovna; marrying a commoner, and raise a family. Perhaps it would've been easier for her, since she was the third daughter...

But having goals impossible to fulfill (even temporarily) has a demoralizing effect on everyone! Imagine in Mariya's situation!
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 01:06:41 AM
its possible that Maria could have suffered from mild depression from time to time...it happens to everyone...
at one point in their lives...also maria seemed different from her sisters....i mean to me it always seemed she longed for a simple life....away from the pomp and splendor...i can also see how her crushes on men that weren't fit for her would make her sad... ::)
I think you are on to something here. Maria seemed to like to converse with the solider type instead of those within her rank.
I think she would have married a commoner just like Olga Alexandrovna did as dissappointing as it would have been to her parents.
But I don't think she would have been happy with Lord Mountbatten who obviously liked her, and kept a picture of her near his bedside until he died in 1977. :o :-\ :'(
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 20, 2007, 06:42:25 PM
Hmmm. I think that none of the girls was "sad" or "depressed". They could be melancholic time to time, as all of us are. Nobody is perfectly happy the 100% of her/his life. Not even a royal girl, born in the middle of luxury in one of the most powerful empires of the world.

I think that Olga was sensitive, a musical soul. She was interested in other subjects (like politics) that her sister did not. But this doesn't mean she was "sad" and that e must feel sorry for her. I DO feel sorry for her when she went prisonner to Tobolsk and then to Ekaterinburg. I feel sorry for her when she was murdered. But I think her life, until this moment, was pretty good. ;)

As for Maria...The poor little one could have feel that she was not loved, as a lot of girls and boys could think it. When I was a girl I used to think that my parents wouldn't love me when they scolded me. I think I read a letter where Alix wrote to Maria that the fact she solded her wouldn't mean she doesn't love her, but the opposite: she scolded her BECAUSE she loved her. Penny Wilson and Greg King understod this otherwise, but I do not think that we must pay too much attention to this little fact. All boys and girls uses to think at least once in their lifes that they are not loved for they parents scolds them...

In fact, Maria seems to have been a pretty happy girl, who dreamed about a simply life sourrounded by a good , caring husband and some beatiful, good children of her own.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 20, 2007, 09:38:45 PM
IMO, Marie was the happiest of the Romanov children.  Judging by her diary entries, and other accounts, she just seems like the most optimistic and well rounded of the imperial children. 
The facts are right...not everyone is happy all the time, but as far as that goes, Marie was by all means one of the happiest and one who was more eased on life.
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 21, 2007, 07:30:33 AM
i guess we will never know for sure because she is no around to tell us how she in fact felt....some people can be very happy on the outside but complete emotional wrecks on the inside....i know quite a few people like that
i guess we can keep guessing how a person feels but no one knows what another person truely thinks ::)
Title: Re: Was Maria sad?
Post by: Georgiy on May 21, 2007, 11:48:14 PM
Well, judging by her diaries and especially her letters she was a happy young lady.