Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Yussupovs => Topic started by: Valmont on January 29, 2004, 12:56:50 PM

Title: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on January 29, 2004, 12:56:50 PM
I read somewhere that  Princess Yussupova was able to flee to Yalta and then take a British ship with the remaining members of the  Imperial family. I saw a picture of her in exile while she was living in Italy, but  I have not been able to find anything regarding her life in exile. Where did she live?. What was her life like?, Did she share the same faith as Grand Duchess Vadimir who could not take her lost and died shortly after the revolution?, Where is she burried?

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Nikolai04 on February 01, 2004, 06:24:23 PM
The Yussupovs managed to escape from Russia and they lived in exile in Paris as most of russian "lucky" aristocrats did...I think France, basically Paris and the Côte d'Azur on the Mediterranean Sea(where for example Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaievich settled), was the top place where russian exiles ended living in... Maybe, because of the traditional alliance between the two countries...?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Chris Snyder on February 01, 2004, 06:35:16 PM
Did the Youssopovs manage to take any of their wealth with them into exile? They were considered to be the wealthiest family in Europe at the time.  I know some jewelry and a few paintings were taken out of Russia by them, but what of the rest of their fortoune?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on February 02, 2004, 09:30:53 AM
Felix  was able to go back to St. Petersburg, and  hide two hundred and something diamond broches  and some art work from one of the Yussupov Palaces. As I said I have not being able to find anything regarding The Yussupov in exile, but I remember reading  something about Felix down to his last Kopeck making an scene at Christies were his Mother's jewelery was to be auctioned.
Being the Yussupov, the wealthies family in Europe at that time, the most logical thought, will be that they had some investments in other countries, but maybe the did not have anything outside Russia. Does anyone knows anything about this?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Forum Admin on February 02, 2004, 09:50:53 AM
Felix took two Rembrandt paintings with him, which are now in the National Gallery in Washington DC, as well as his mother's jewelry. He had inherited a small estate in France before the Revolution which he still owned, and was awarded a sizeable libel judgement in the early 1930s from MGM, as he found his portrayel in the movie "Rasputin and the Empress" objectionable.  They lived comfortably, but no where near what they had before leaving Russia.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Forum Admin on February 02, 2004, 10:19:58 AM
In "The Lost Fortune of the Tsars" William Clark writes that Nicholas II had repatriated his own money back to Russia at the outbreak of the War and expected all Russians to do the same. Prince Felix told an interviewer (Dr. Idris Taylor jun.) that his family had done as the Tsar wished, and had only an estate on Lake Geneva and an apartment in London which they had yet been unable to sell, the jewelry and valuables they carried and the two Rembrandts, after they left. (see pg 219-220)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Nick Nicholson on February 02, 2004, 01:23:44 PM
Unfortunately, the larger part of the Yusupov jewels were left behind in Russia, hidden by Felix in the palace the family held in Moscow (He describes this in "Lost Splendour," his recntly reissued autobiography.)  The jewels were discovered when a servant revealed their whereabouts.  A bolshevik era photograph of this cache (including two massive silver swans commissioned from Faberge) illustrated on page 125 of Alexander von SOlodkoff's "Masterpieces of the House of Faberge" (Abrams, 1984).

Prince Felix's wife, Irina (Born Princess Irina of Russia) had fortunately sent her vast collection of jewelry to Paris to be reset by Chaumet when they were exiled to the Crimea after the murder of Rasputin.  When they arrived in Paris, this collection is what sustained them for many years --- not the jewelry of Princess Zinaida, as far as I know.  I have also heard that several key pieces remain in the hands of the only surviving Yusupov descendant.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on February 02, 2004, 02:02:00 PM
I understand the  decendent of the Yussupov lives in Grece, but  where is Pincess Zinaida Yussupova burried?
Does anyone has a picture of the house she lived in after she left Russia?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: NIck Nicholson on February 03, 2004, 12:57:14 PM
Yes, the Iusupov descendant lives in Greece for part of the year.

Princess Zinaida died in 1923, and I am told that she is buried in the Russian Cemetery in Paris.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Galina Alexander on February 05, 2004, 10:32:17 AM
I remember reading somewhere that elder Yusupovs lived in Italy with their grand daughter Irina for a while. Yes, they are burried in St Genevieve de Bois(surely wrong spelling).
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: wwwnyc on February 06, 2004, 09:04:38 PM
The Princess died in Paris on 24 November 1939 and not in 1923 as someone at this site stated.

Excellent book (tons of photographs most of us have never seen before) on the Youssupovs is the one by Jacques Ferrard, the remarkable French genealogist who specializes in books on the princely families of Russia.

Full title is:  "Les princes YOUSSOUPOFF & les comtes SOUMAROKOFF-ELSTON, Chronique et Photographies", Paris, 1991.

I bought a copy several years ago at Galignani, a book shop on the rue de Rivoli in Paris.  Friend was in Paris last May and went there and bought a copy also.  I believe Galignani has a web site and you can probably order this book on line.

WWW
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: NIck Nicholson on February 11, 2004, 10:14:45 AM
FOrgive me.  I made a mistake in my posting regarding the death date of Zinaida Youssoupoff.  I was looking at a Russian text, and it was artist Francois Flameng who died in 1924 (He painted a famous portrait of Z.Y., at which I was looking.)  This is what happens when you don't double-check before writing.

Sorry!   Nick
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Jane on February 11, 2004, 12:18:06 PM
I seem to remember reading (possibly in "The Flight of the Romanovs") that Felix and Irina Yusupov also started a couture house in Paris after the Revolution.  I think they called it "Irfe"--a combination of both of their names.  Has anyone else heard this?  
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on February 20, 2004, 04:55:39 PM
I just read the Biography on Princess Zinaida Yussupova by Greg King, and in a paragraph it says that P Zenaida Yussupova  and GD Elizabeth Feodorovna were very close friends, and  that closeness  was still strong by the time GD Elizabeth Feodorvna was killed, "the worst blow came when she learned that her close friend Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna had also been murdered, thrown down an isolated mineshaft in Siberia along with six others with whom she had been imprisoned."
Now, reading the letters that P Yussupova wrote to her son Felix, there is one dated on December 11, 1916, where she writes
"I do not like the celebrated "sister" [the Grand Duchess Elizaveta Feodorovna Romanov]. In my opinion, she poses most impudently as a member of the family. She calls Irina by her Christian name, and evcn "Tata"! I strongly object to her behaviour. When I visit Irina I constantly find her there, lounging in a chair, without in the least understanding that her presence does not interest me. She sports a kind of operatic costume of a Sister of Mercy, and generally spoils the whole atmosphere by her presence. Irina seems to accept it all as inevitable, whereas I simply cannot stand it. You will see for yourself soon, when you come home. "
To me, it seems like P Yussupova  couldn't stand  GD Elizabeth Feodorovna and they were not friends (at least not anymore) by the time GD Elizabeth Feodorvna was killed.  
So, Is the Biography incorrect??
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Greg_King on February 20, 2004, 05:51:26 PM
When I wrote that they were close friend, I was referring to both their past associations and for the feelings, as Felix recalled, that his mother had on learning of the Grand Duchess's death.  I can't speak on the state of their relationship in 1916 except to say that they remained close enough that when Ella was trying to convince Alix to give Rasputin up, she first went to Zenaide and asked her to go to Tsarskoye Selo and speak to her sister-scarcely a request she would make of someone she disliked.

My sense is that it's a more complicated situation than mere like vs. dislike, as Ella was a woman of complex character, capable of great good and at the same time great selfishness-and Zenaide's letter may reflect some situation more akin to the latter than to the former.  But I have no evidence that Zenaide actively disliked Ella, ever.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: snoopygirl on February 20, 2004, 06:36:36 PM
I heard like many people have said that the Yussupovas in general had a very close relationship to Ella. It was Ella they talked to and Felix liked her very much ( I just finished reading Felix's memiors). Her death upset him very much. They went into exile with Marie. They all left on a ship together I think.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on February 20, 2004, 06:49:07 PM
I have another cuestion, I am curious about what you say Regarding the death of Prince Nicholas Yusupov.
You wrote: "Zenaide had feared the worth, and implored her youngest son to intercede with his brother when she first heard hints of a duel, but Felix maliciously aggravated the situation and unwittingly played a pivotal role in the events that brought it about"
With this you are implying that Felix was  responsible for the death of his Brother.  Could you please explain what did he do to agravate the situation, and what pivotal role he played in his brother's death?

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Greg_King on February 21, 2004, 12:40:30 AM
Quote
I have another cuestion, I am curious about what you say Regarding the death of Prince Nicholas Yusupov.
 You wrote: "Zenaide had feared the worth, and implored her youngest son to intercede with his brother when she first heard hints of a duel, but Felix maliciously aggravated the situation and unwittingly played a pivotal role in the events that brought it about"
 With this you are implying that Felix was  responsible for the death of his Brother.  Could you please explain what did he do to agravate the situation, and what pivotal role he played in his brother's death?

Arturo Vega-Llausás


This information comes from research done by author Gretchen Haskin, who published a lengthy 2 part article on Marina Heyden and Nicholas Yusupov in "Atlantis" about a year ago.  In Marina's memoirs (and this is from memory, so forgive me if I can't be too specific) she makes reference to Felix having had a rather large hand in deceiving her and pushing Nicholas toward her even when their mother forbid the relationship, and acting conspiratorially right before the duel-in essence she alleges that Felix urged Nicholas on, knowing full well that Manteufel would respond with violence.  Gretchen found evidence to support this view in both the Yusupov archive in GARF and also in communication with the two undoubted Yusupov experts alive today, Dr. Idris Traylor and Dr. Ronald Moe.  I can try to dig up the issues and post the relevant information if you're interested.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Almedingen on February 21, 2004, 10:54:33 PM
Valmont,

Where can I find the biography by Greg King on Zenaida Yusupov?

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Forum Admin on February 22, 2004, 10:03:19 AM
Almedingen, it is on the Alexander Palace website. Greg was most kind to have written it for us.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/zenaide.html
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2004, 03:37:53 PM
Greg,

What is the exact title of your Felix Yussupov biography? Thanks.

Helen
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Greg_King on February 22, 2004, 05:52:23 PM
Quote
Greg,

What is the exact title of your Felix Yussupov biography? Thanks.

Helen


Hi Helen-

In the US: "The Man Who Killed Rasputin: Prince Felix Youssoupov and the Murder That Helped Bring Down the Russian Empire"

In the UK: "The Murder of Rasputin" (they wanted something that sounded more catchy)

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on February 23, 2004, 02:16:48 PM
Wow.. So Felix Yussupov was  worse than I thought. It must have been terrible for P Zenaida Yussupova to learn her only surviving son was in part responsible for the death of her other son. No wonder she  was in mourning for so many time.
Greg, I would love it, and It would  most interesting if you could post the most relevant information regarding this matter.


Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Greg_King on February 29, 2004, 08:22:34 AM
Quote
I seem to remember reading (possibly in "The Flight of the Romanovs") that Felix and Irina Yusupov also started a couture house in Paris after the Revolution.  I think they called it "Irfe"--a combination of both of their names.  Has anyone else heard this?  


There is some information to be found on "Irfe" in both my biography of Felix Yusupov and in Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna's second volume of memoirs, and a far more detailed account in the Jacques Ferrand volume mentioned elsewhere in this thread.  But the most significant accumulation of information, along with a number of photographs, can be found in "Beauty in Exile: The Artists, Models, and Nobility Who Fled the Russian Revolution and Influenced the World of Fashion" by Alexandre Vassiliev, published a couple of years ago.  It's a gorgeous book, and an important reference for information on a lot of Russian exiles in Europe.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on March 10, 2004, 02:48:59 PM
Elizaveta,
Where can I find  the articles you are talking about?.  I guess they are not in the web, right?


Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Jane on March 10, 2004, 06:31:53 PM
Greg,

Thanks very much for the info above re the "Beauty in Exile" book (sorry, as a recovering Luddite, I can't yet figure out how to paste in part of your post)--sounds like just the sort of gorgeous and colorful tome that I love to collect (much to the devastation of my bank account).

Regards,

Jane
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Candice on April 14, 2004, 02:57:30 PM
I cut out a tiny article in the Mail Newspaper here in UK, on September 25th 1996, written by Arnold-Baker, London EC4.
"It's time the anti-monarchist myth was scotched that George V persuaded Lloyd George to withdraw his invitation tothe Russian imperial family to come to Britain (Mail.)

The King wanted them to come; Lloyd George obstructed them.

My uncle, Commander Arthur Baker, who was executive officer on HMS Lord Nelson in 1918, told me the ship picked up two imperial grand ducheses at Black Sea ports, on royal orders, but was later ordered by the government to dump them at Oran in French North Africa.

Lloyd George was running scared of Left-wing trade unionism.  In 1920, dockers refused to load the Jolly George with munitions for Poland, then being invaded by the Red Army.  It was not the King who was craven but Lloyd George."

May be the two imperial grand ducheses made there way to Italy?  Did anyone else see this article?

I just thought I might share this with you.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: MoyBrat on May 08, 2004, 07:48:35 PM
 Regarding Felix, I truly believe he was a wonderful person, regardless of his excessive passions.
As to whether he was homosexual or not..., well the term has a lot of definitions. From all I've read (his bios, letters and so on), and from my personal experience and backround as someone who likes to try things(...), and has a degree in psychology too, I feel there clearly was a physical attraction from his part for men and for GD Dim in particular.
The question remains : did he ever get into a physical relationship? Well, considering his aristocratic selfishness (and I mean that with no disrespect),and to put it bluntly, I believe he got what he wanted everytime . In the case of the GD at least, I feel he was successful, as they loved eachother very much, and if the GD had refused him in ANY way, Felix's pride would not have standed it, and they wouldn't have remained friends after the GD was exiled.
 Love comes in many forms and I feel he was "blessed with this curse", to quote a favorite author of mine. who are we to judge, after all?? :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on May 20, 2004, 04:18:22 PM
No one is judging anyone here.. I think your  comment  would be better appreciated in the  "Felix & GD Dimitri" Thread.

Definitely, P Zenaida Yussupova was a also a Tragic figure in  Imperial Russian History, regardless of her wealthy and Flamboyant lifestyle, I think I can Understand  why  women like her and Gran Duchess Vladimir, did not live much longer after the Russian Revolution..but they left their stories, that keep amazing us  up to this day.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Namarolf on May 20, 2004, 07:45:17 PM
I think in exile GD Dmitry and Pr. Iusupov were not precisely in friendly terms.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on May 21, 2004, 10:53:02 AM
 I have that very same opinion, they did not remain friends.
There is a thread about them, where the subject  has been previously disscussed.


Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Joanna on May 21, 2004, 11:20:07 PM
In St. Petersburg Protrait of an Imperial City by Boris Ometev & John Stuart, on page 119 there is a beautiful full page photograph of Princess Zinaida taken in 1914!

Joanna
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Sandy Evans on July 12, 2004, 05:42:12 PM
I have a few things to comment on after reading this.

One, I have seen a picture of the Yussupov grave in Paris and the husband, Count Felix, is not buried there. It is only Zinaida, Felix, Irina, Bebe, and her husband. Isn't the husband buried in Italy?

Also, I read in the book by Greg King that though Felix smuggled those paintings out of Russia, he got no money for them, he was swindled by a crooked American dealer. He even came to the US and sued but lost. I usually hear he lived off those, but it is not true!
They had sold some jewelry, and had some property in western Europe, and had the Irfe business, but were they not almost broke when they sued MGM in 1934?

I still can't believe Felix encouraged the duel. He was so honestly heartbroken over the death of his brother the effect it had on his mother. After his death, Felix discovered some letters showing his brother had been under the influence of a French psychic who assured him he would win the duel. I can believe this considering how into spiritualism and such they all were.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: sandy evans on July 12, 2004, 06:31:14 PM
One more thing regarding Zinaida and Ella- it seems very true that they were great friends for many years, perhaps Zinaida felt a little different about her after she became a nun? Still, they were together in trying to get Alexandra to drop Rasputin. Felix spoke only glowingly of Ella. Perhaps Zinaida was only fed up and having a bad day when she wrote that letter. For the most part I'm sure she loved Ella.

Also, has anyone else ever mentioned that Zinaida had to have been pregnant by several months when she married Count Felix Sumarakov? They were married in April 1882, that is a fact. They had their silver anniversary in 1907 and recieved a Fabrege' egg with portraits of their sons on it, so that's 25 years. Felix refers to his brother as being 5 years older than him many times. Felix was born in 1887, making 1882 five years older. When speaking of the duel in the summer of 1908, it is mentioned that the family is worried because Nicholas is about to turn 26 and in every generation of the Yussupov family only one heir has survived past age 25! There again, 1882 +26= 1908. Therefore, if Zinaida was married in April 1882 and Nicholas born in July or August 1882, she was about 5 months pregnant when she married! Is this why they had the small ceremony in the guards' chapel instead of a huge Imperial Russian affair? I'm sure her father was heartbroken, having hoped she'd marry high up, but supported her just the same.

Does anyone know what Zinaida's older sister died of? What about the 2 sons she bore between Nicholas and Felix? Does anyone have birth dates, names, or how long each surivived recorded anywhere?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: kensue on July 15, 2004, 07:53:29 AM
This question is posed to any of you who speak russian.
How do you pronounce "Zenaida"?  Is it "aida" like the opera or is the first 'a' long like "aid" in english? :-/
With a rather long first name, did she have a nickname like some many of them had?

Thanks  
kensue
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Lisa on July 15, 2004, 08:07:26 AM
It's "Zinaïda" (like the Opera). The occidental version is Zénaïde (like Marie for Maria, Xénie for Xénia, Anastasie for Anastasia or Alexis for Alexei, etc...)
The nickmane of the "Zinaïdas" is Zina. I don't if it's the one of the Princess... ???
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on August 05, 2004, 06:58:06 PM
Quote

Definitely, P Zenaida Yussupova was a also a Tragic figure in  Imperial Russian History, regardless of her wealthy and Flamboyant lifestyle, I think I can Understand  why  women like her and Gran Duchess Vladimir, did not live much longer after the Russian Revolution..but they left their stories, that keep amazing us  up to this day.



???

Did not live long after the revolution? Zenaida lived another 20 years after they fled on the Marlborough. She died in Paris in 1939.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: thijs smoorenburg on August 14, 2004, 07:50:50 AM
hallo there

hat a wonderfull site i found!
I am interested in the history of the youssoupoff familiy and i try to collect information and photographs from this family. Especially Zenaida is my interest. One of you tipped the book by Jacques ferrand "les princes youssoupoff comtes sumarokov elston"  but it is impossible to get my hands on it untill now. Perhaps any of you has an idea where i can become this book. Till then you would much please me if any of you would post a message with pics. I learned from reading theese messages that there is a lot of photographical material. So folks, give it a try and send your pics! Thanks!! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Lisa on August 14, 2004, 08:02:06 AM
Hello!
It's very difficult to find J. Ferrand's books, even in France!
Here is his web site

http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/jferrand/english.htm

and your book
http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/jferrand/yous.htm

but it's quite old, beacause the price is still in Francs and not in Euros!...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on October 01, 2004, 07:08:08 PM
Does anyone know if there are any books written about her or are going to be written?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Olga on November 15, 2004, 04:14:08 AM
Quote
How do you pronounce "Zenaida"?  Is it "aida" like the opera or is the first 'a' long like "aid" in english?


Zee-nah-ee-dah. Possible diminutives are Zina, Zinochka, Zinushka, Zinulya, Zinka.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on November 24, 2004, 06:38:02 AM
Quote

The question remains : did he ever get into a physical relationship? Well, considering his aristocratic selfishness (and I mean that with no disrespect),and to put it bluntly, I believe he got what he wanted everytime .


Actually, he didn't get what he wanted every time! He was crazy about my father, but never got his way that way! My great-grandfather was the brother of Felix's great-grandmother, and Felix and my father practically grew up together, and later on were both living in London and then in Oxford. They were always very close, but my father refused Felix's amorous advances, since my father wasn't at all that way inclined!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Martyn on November 24, 2004, 08:00:34 AM
Vera, it is simply marvellous for us to have you as such a wonderful link to Felix and his family.
Please keep supplying us with information - I love the tale about your father repelling Felix's amorous advances.  We have had many discussions about Felix's preferences and this helps us to understand him better.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on November 24, 2004, 03:10:28 PM
Yes it is! Welcome, and please tell us more!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on November 24, 2004, 07:48:09 PM
Quote

 My great-grandfather was the brother of Felix's great-grandmother, and Felix and my father practically grew up together.


Are you talking  about Zenaida Ivanovna Naryshkina? She was born in 1809, and felix was born in 1887.  So, you are saying Zenaida Ivanovna's mother had another child almost 80 years (more or less) after Zenaida was born???...Interesting
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on November 25, 2004, 06:46:43 AM
Quote
Are you talking  about Zenaida Ivanovna Naryshkina? She was born in 1809, and felix was born in 1887.  So, you are saying Zenaida Ivanovna's mother had another child almost 80 years (more or less) after Zenaida was born???...Interesting

Yes, I am referring to my great-great-aunt Zenaida Ivanovna Narishkina (Felix's great-grandmother), who was born November 2, 1809, and who died October 25, 1893. Here, let me help you:

My father was Vadim Alexandrovitch Narishkin (born December 26, 1891, died in March 1952). His father was Alexander Dimitrievitch Narishkin (born January 8, 1851, died August 10, 1894). He was the son of Dimitri Ivanovitch Narishkin (born April 17, 1812, died March 1, 1866) who was the only sibling of Zinaida Ivanovna Narishkina. Their parents (and therefore Felix's and my great-great-grandparents) were Ivan Dimitrievitch Narishkin (born April 17, 1776, died April 15, 1848 ) and Varvara Nikolayevna Narishkina née princess Ladomirsky (born May 17, 1785, died November 26, 1840).

So, what's your problem with that, and whence did you pull out the notion that Zinaida's mother (Felix's and my great-great-grandmother) had another child 80 years after Zinaida Ivanova's birth?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on November 25, 2004, 06:36:26 PM
I missundertood your comment,  Somehow I understood  it wrong. My apologies if  any offense was taken.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on November 26, 2004, 09:47:23 AM
Quote
I missundertood your comment,  Somehow I understood  it wrong. My apologies if  any offense was taken.

Don't worry - no offense was taken. I was puzzled by your comment, that's all.

Take care.

:)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on December 28, 2004, 01:00:29 PM
Quote
Yes, the Iusupov descendant lives in Greece for part of the year.

Princess Zinaida died in 1923, and I am told that she is buried in the Russian Cemetery in Paris.

She died much later in 1939.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on December 28, 2004, 01:27:26 PM
I was just looking at Zinaida's pictures posted on this thread. I am amazed at how beautiful she was. Even as an older woman in that one picture (she must be in her 60s) she is ravishing. And all that with no make up. In the 1882 picture with her husband in front of that fake ocean background she is just drop-dead gorgeous even with our modern standards. Some of these photos I had never seen before, and the ones I had seen didn't reveal her beauty that well (with the exception of the Serov painting). Now I am convinced that she was far more beautiful than Ella and Alix and Queen Alexandra of England.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Martyn on December 28, 2004, 03:21:32 PM
Quote
I was just looking at Zinaida's pictures posted on this thread. I am amazed at how beautiful she was. Even as an older woman in that one picture (she must be in her 60s) she is ravishing. And all that with no make up. In the 1882 picture with her husband in front of that fake ocean background she is just drop-dead gorgeous even with our modern standards. Some of these photos I had never seen before, and the ones I had seen didn't reveal her beauty that well (with the exception of the Serov painting). Now I am convinced that she was far more beautiful than Ella and Alix and Queen Alexandra of England.


Well, I will freely admit that she was extremely beautiful.  It might have something to do with her bone structure and the regularity of her features; her face is a perfect oval and all her facial features are in proportion.  Plus most pictures of her show her either smiling or with a very serene, relaxed expression on her face.  She seems to radiate beauty; what a delight it would have been to see her in the flesh.....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2004, 05:04:55 PM
She was one of the few people from those days who always smiled in pics, most people didn't.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on December 28, 2004, 11:08:57 PM
I think she is the only one I have seen smile in "formal" pictures...indeed she was very radiant even when she reached middle age. A true beauty
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on December 30, 2004, 06:09:35 PM
Quote
One more thing regarding Zinaida and Ella- it seems very true that they were great friends for many years, perhaps Zinaida felt a little different about her after she became a nun? Still, they were together in trying to get Alexandra to drop Rasputin. Felix spoke only glowingly of Ella. Perhaps Zinaida was only fed up and having a bad day when she wrote that letter. For the most part I'm sure she loved Ella.

Under the "Zinayida and Ella" thread we just discussed and it seems pretty clear that "the celebrated sister of mercy" bit in Zinayida's famous letter does not refer ro Ella at all. Quite possibly she is talking about a famous nurse who was hired to look after Irina and her baby, both of whom were fallen ill. Chances are the nurse was feeling too much at home and that irritated Zinayida.
If that's the case then we should also accept Felix's statement that ZInayida and Ella remained great friends until Ella's death.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on January 02, 2005, 10:19:23 AM
Can you imagined how Zinaida must have felt when she learned of Ella's death?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 02, 2005, 11:20:53 AM
Are there any letters by Zinaida where she talks about her reaction to Ella's death?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Martyn on January 03, 2005, 12:22:04 PM
Quote
Are there any letters by Zinaida where she talks about her reaction to Ella's death?


That's a good point Helen.  There must be some record of her reaction to the terrible end of her 'great friend', mustn't there?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Gaev on January 10, 2005, 04:41:18 PM
Quote
Yes, the Iusupov descendant lives in Greece for part of the year.

.


Hello,
Does anyone has any idea on how one could get in contact with countess Xenia Sheremetievna Sfiris?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Gaev on January 10, 2005, 04:48:16 PM
This is a very nice site!!!
Congratulations to the owners and further congratulations to the users!!!!

When - ten years ago- I mailed ordered "Lost Splendour" from a publishing house in England, I was thinking myself "kind of lonely" for choosing that book!
Now that i have found you I think I have to "sieve" that book again.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Zenaida1861 on February 01, 2005, 12:40:48 PM
Wonderful pics!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2005, 04:14:28 PM
There is a charming description of the Yussupov family in exile in Paris in Princess Tatiana Metternich's book "A Purgatory of Fools"
Princess Tatiana was a Russian aristocrat whose family fled the revolution when she was small. After wandering a bit, she ended up in Nazi Germany, was close to the Resistance and married Prince Paul Metternich. She and her husband seemed to know a good portion of the middle european aristocracy and there are interesting pictures and comments (she tends to be kind, but, I believe, perceptive) about them and some royals, including the Russian imperial family.
Her description of the Yussupovs pictures them while they still lived lavishly although she makes it clear that harder times were on the way because of the Prince's spending and generosity.  She admired Princess Zinaida greatly for the qualities which have been discussed.
Princess Metternich's book is fascinating and gives a absorbing picture of a group of aristocrats in Germany before and just after the defeat of Hitler.  The Metternichs had to flee the communists--the second time for Tatiana--but fortunately they had a valuable estate in the West.
     Tom
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on February 13, 2005, 06:42:47 PM
Does anyone know how Princess Zinaida felt after the revolution? I mean to lose everything the way they did must have been just tough on her. Did she ever write or talk to anyone about it? Any records of any sort?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Tom on February 13, 2005, 08:22:53 PM
Princess Tatiana Wassilltchikoff, later Princess Metternich, relates in her book that she stayed with Princess Zinaida for a short time while she was recovering from an illness and that the Princess Zinaida spoke to her "of bygone days". Princess Tatiana considered that her hostess was sharing  confidences and Princess Zinaida told of her disturbing dreams which predicted disasters and of the death of her son.
Princess Tatiana also remembers from an earlier visit as a child to the exiled Yussupova family that Irina stared with "rapt admiration" as Felix sang for guests, then broke the spell with a  "dry remark"  This must have been one of the most interesting of marriages but it seems one of mutual devotion.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Kätlin on February 15, 2005, 01:55:24 AM
Does anyone know, where exactly did they live in Rome and where did they get the money to support themselves and their granddaughter?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on February 15, 2005, 06:34:54 AM
Interesting stories, Tom, thanks for posting. Felix also fancied himself claravoiyant (sp) I guess that's where he got it.

Kaitlin, I think they owned something there, and they sold jewelry and other belongings for support. I know at that time she was still giving Felix jewelry to sell so that must have been what she did. When old Felix died in 1928, Zenaida moved in with Felix and Irina in Paris.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: strom on February 16, 2005, 01:27:12 PM
The problem with Zinaida is the problem with much of the family: when push came to shove they did not support the Sovereign.  I have read that Zinaida and the Empress were not on speaking terms after the murder of Father Gregory, which would be a normal consequence from the involvement of Felix in that crime.  (There is a reported audience where she made her pitch, and found the Empress cold.)  G.D. Elizabeth seemed to have been used as an intermediary between the Family and the Sovereigns probably in a ploy to gain time for the conspirators.  In any event, she seems to have been unable at this point to distinguish between the value of expediency and the call of eternity.  I expect she had time before the end to measure the true value of the former against the latter.
Zinaida was very beautiful and this is still on display in her marvelous portrit by Serov at the Russian Museum.  It is a masterpiece by one of the very greatest artists of that age.  
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on March 04, 2005, 08:18:32 PM

Strom

I read your post and was rather offended by it. In my opinion there was no "problem" with Zinaida, or any one else in Russia.


Your view on Russian Aristocrats are bizarre and ignorant. The Russian aristocracy is not comparable with any other continental European aristocracy. Dukes (The most frequently highest aristocratic order in Europe) of Britain, France and Spain are not and have never been  Sovereign. The only comparable court in Europe to that of the Tsar, was the Kaiser's. The main difference being that the Russian Court was older and more prestigious. NO Court in  Europe was as full of mediatized royal families as was the Russian court. Germany with it's nouveau regalities hardly compairs favourably. The most Important Empire in Europe Ever was the Roman Empire. The eastern part (Byzantine) of which, with the extinction of the PALEOLOGOS  the Rurikovichi were next in seniority.

The sort of blindless devotion to a Sovereign that you speak of is more befitting to a British Baron than a Russian Prince.

The Yusupov's were not unique in their opinion of Nikolai II's ability or inability to rule and with his wifes almost comical inability/unwillingness to "fit in" to russian society. The Yusupovs as with any Russian Grandee Family had an awful lot to lose with the prospect of revolution. The only thing I am disappointed with is that the last Tsar and his immediate family were not removed from power and replaced with people (the vladimirovichi) of more ability.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on March 06, 2005, 08:27:22 AM
Quote
The problem with Zinaida is the problem with much of the family: when push came to shove they did not support the Sovereign.  I have read that Zinaida and the Empress were not on speaking terms after the murder of Father Gregory, which would be a normal consequence from the involvement of Felix in that crime.  (There is a reported audience where she made her pitch, and found the Empress cold.)  G.D. Elizabeth seemed to have been used as an intermediary between the Family and the Sovereigns probably in a ploy to gain time for the conspirators.  In any event, she seems to have been unable at this point to distinguish between the value of expediency and the call of eternity.  I expect she had time before the end to measure the true value of the former against the latter.
Zinaida was very beautiful and this is still on display in her marvelous portrit by Serov at the Russian Museum.  It is a masterpiece by one of the very greatest artists of that age.  


Both Zenaida and Ella had been 'disowned' by the Empress prior to Rasputin's murder. Each had spoken to her about stopping her involvement with Rasputin, and she dismissed them 'like a dog' as Ella said. Ella went there after she had turned Zenaida out declaring "I hope I never see this woman again." Alexandra never again spoke to Ella or Zenaida as long as she lived.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on March 06, 2005, 12:36:08 PM
Do you think Zinaida died still feeling resentful towards Alexandra?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: hikaru on March 29, 2005, 08:02:49 AM
In previous message, there was a question why Tatiana , older syster of Zinaida, have died - she died of typhus.
Zynaida was very afraid that the damnation of Yussupovs transfered to female Yussupov too.
Zynaida built a chapel for the memory of beloved syster and wrote the will in which she said that
all great collection of treasures and artw should be passed to the State in case if Yusuppov family will have no heir.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on March 29, 2005, 02:15:36 PM
Quote
Do you think Zinaida died still feeling resentful towards Alexandra?

How could you even doubt that. I think if Zinaida (and many many others) could get their hands on Alix after the revolution, Alix would not come out alive. I would have done the same thing to her too. Just strangled her:-)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on March 29, 2005, 02:54:59 PM
I was just wondering. I know several people usually forgive the person after they have died. After being killed in such a horrible way, I wasn't sure if she still felt resentful towards Alexandra.  ::)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on March 30, 2005, 07:08:16 AM
Quote
I was just wondering. I know several people usually forgive the person after they have died. After being killed in such a horrible way, I wasn't sure if she still felt resentful towards Alexandra.  ::)

Well, my answer was rather speculative and based on common sense. I haven't read or heard anything about her later opinion on the whole thing. It is possible that she forgave Alexandra, although I'd really doubt it. Does anyone know anything more concrete about her later attitude towards the revolution and Alexandra's role in it?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on March 30, 2005, 09:57:44 AM
Just use common sense. You lost EVERYTHING due to a revolution that you think was cause by someone's acts, and that that person was  killed by the revolucionaries.
If I was in Zenaida's shoes I would probably think that AliX should have been shot much earlier, and probably regreat about all the oportunities I had when I could have done it and I didn't....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on March 30, 2005, 10:05:04 AM
Quote
Just use common sense. You lost EVERYTHING due to a revolution that you think was cause by someone's acts, and that that person was  killed by the revolucionaries.
If I was in Zenaida's shoes I would probably think that AliX should have been shot much earlier, and probably regreat about all the oportunities she had when she could have done it and she didn't....



I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense. I just wasn't sure if there was any written records or anything that related to this.

Another thing that keeps bothering me is why if things were so bad in Russia, didn't the family move more of thier fortune out of the country?

I do recall reading that Nicholas wanted everyone to place thier fortunes into Russian banks, but still if you were at odd's with the Imperial family and knew things were very unstable, wouldn't you start to prepare for worst? But then again, I don't think anyone ever expected a full blown Revolution where they would lose it all.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 12, 2005, 02:23:26 PM
I have a little question: when zinaida got married, her father asked for her husband Felix to take on the family name so it would not die out upon Zinaida's death.

My question is, could a married woman just keep her family name or did she have to take her husband's name? I was reading that Queen Elizabeth II didn't take her husband's name when they first married.

So I was wondering if a woman could keep her maiden name although she was married.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on April 12, 2005, 06:40:41 PM
Zenaida's father (P Nicholas Yussupov) asked Emperor Alexander III for  permision that  Zenaida's  husband could change his last name, so the Yussupov name would not die with Zenaida's  deth.
That is the reason why Felix Yussupov sometimes is  mentioned as "Felix Felixovich Sumarakov-Elston". I also found  a Russian Surname's web page, and when I checked "Yussupov"  it said that it has died with Zenaida's death.. I believe that maybe the line did died with P Yussupova's death, but the name died with  Baby's death...

Arturo
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2005, 10:11:17 AM
I have seen it written that the name officially died with Irina in 1970. The line still hasn't died, as Bebe's daughter and granddaughter are still alive. If Bebe's granddaughter dies without a child, then the line will also die :(
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 13, 2005, 10:21:29 AM
So could Zinaida or any other woman who was the last of her line keep her name? Or did her husband have to take her name in order for her to continue to use it?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: hikaru on April 13, 2005, 11:38:01 AM
I think that The Emperor has to approve the right of husband of Yussupov's girl to take the family name.
Only Tsar . But it is in Russia.
Maybe in Europe , it is more simple.

As for her life in exile, I found the following item:  
it seems that  she said" the trials which were sent to us- they are for our sins".
As far as she had the money and energy, she helped Russians in Roma. She made in Roma Job Bureau , free
trattoria for russian people who went abroad without any money. She also opened an atelier  where the underwear were made. She sent it to the poor Russians.
So she accepted her new position but not only accepted such  misery position, but also tried to help others to find new way of living.
After her husband's death , she came to Paris to be closer to the son and to the grand daughter. And then, she died on 1939.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 13, 2005, 02:12:43 PM
Ah, so a petition could be sent to the Tsar asking for a daughter to keep thier family name even after marriage. I was having trouble finding other examples outside of Zinaida but I was sure I had read about it somewhere.

As for her life after the revolution, what I wouldn't give to see a movie on her or read a bio just about her. I find Zinaida to be one of the most fascinating characters( outside the IF) that was involve in the entire drama that played out before and after 1918.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 25, 2005, 12:41:50 AM
Just found a picture of Princess Zinaida Yussupova which I had never seen before

http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/jussupov/queen-marie-antoinette-diamonds.htm
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on April 25, 2005, 09:57:35 AM
Quote
Just found a picture of Princess Zinaida Yussupova which I had never seen before

http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/jussupov/queen-marie-antoinette-diamonds.htm


Thanks! I have a small, blurry version of this, but this one is much better!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 25, 2005, 10:21:14 AM
I had never seen it before and I was like, " is that Zinaida?" only to realize yes it was!

The website is basically talking about the Yussupov jewlery. But I loved that picture of her.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on May 09, 2005, 05:00:27 AM
I thought you'd all like to see some photos of Zenaida's second cousin, my aunt Ljuba Alexandrovna Narishkina - here is one when she was 19 years old:

(http://img208.echo.cx/img208/1820/ljubain19090uy.th.jpg) (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=ljubain19090uy.jpg)


Here is one of Ljuba Alexandrovna and her brother, my father, Vadim Alexandrovitch Narishkin, taken round about 1895:

(http://img208.echo.cx/img208/9140/vadimliuba23cf.th.jpg) (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=vadimliuba23cf.jpg)


Another one of Ljuba and Vadim taken at the same time:

(http://img208.echo.cx/img208/3340/vadimliuba3mm.th.jpg) (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=vadimliuba3mm.jpg)

And one of Vadim, taken on that same day - I see a slight resemblance with the profile photo of Zenaida as a child:

(http://img208.echo.cx/img208/2069/vadim3uz.th.jpg) (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=vadim3uz.jpg)


Click on the thumbnails for the full-sized pictures.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on May 09, 2005, 05:08:21 AM
For some reason, the thumbnail link to a photo of Ljuba Alexandrovna Narishkina dressed up for a costume ball doesn't work - I don't want to post the full-sized photo as it is fairly large, so just click on the link below:

http://img93.echo.cx/my.php?image=liubaalexandrovna1913ii5tk.jpg

I had presumed that it was the famous 1913 Jubilee costume ball, but I think I may well be mistaken - it could have been a costume ball sometime around 1904 - 1906, in Saint Petersburg.

I don't know about you, but I do see a resemblance between Ljuba and Zenaida.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Forum Admin on May 09, 2005, 11:18:45 AM
Vera, your photo is from the famous 1903 Costume Ball in the Winter Palace.  
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Arleen on May 09, 2005, 04:29:34 PM
Thank you Vera, for sharing your photographs with all of us.  They are so very beautiful!  Have you any more???
..Arleen
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on May 10, 2005, 06:01:12 AM
Quote
Vera, your photo is from the famous 1903 Costume Ball in the Winter Palace.

Thanks, Admin. This does make sense, since she looks so much younger in that photo than in the 1909 photo.

Quote
Thank you Vera, for sharing your photographs with all of us.  They are so very beautiful!  Have you any more?

Thank-you, Arleen, you are all most welcome. Yes, I do have more photos already scanned and uploaded to ImageShack, and a great many more that I haven't yet scanned - my old scanner is acting up, and I haven't yet been able to install my new one, for various reasons.

Here is a photo of my great-uncle Guiorguy Dmitrievitch Narishkin, dressed in what looks like a 17th or 18th century Preobrazhensky Regiment officer's uniform (I believe all the Narishkin males in my branch of the family were incoroprated either in that Regiment or in the Corps of Pages). Guiorguy Dmitrievitch and his siblings were Prince Nikolai Yussupov's first cousins (I am referring to Zinaïda Nikolaevna Yussupova's father, of course). The thumbnail link doesn't seem to work either, so just click on the link:

http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=giorguidmitrievitchnarishkin19.jpg


I'll post more at a later date.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on May 10, 2005, 09:05:03 AM
Thank you so much Vera! How exciting it must be to be related to the Yussoupovs! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 30, 2005, 03:50:15 PM
Quote
I just love this beautiful painting Brian, thanks for posting it, doesn't she make the the most gorgeous Russian Princess?
..A



most definately  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 09, 2005, 12:17:47 PM
Very pretty painting of Princess Yussupova

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/ca.jpg)

Princess Yussupova

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/99065789wqOXUI_ph.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: hikaru on August 02, 2005, 02:58:17 AM
I have just read in the memoirs of the Count Scherbatov that Zinaida and Tatiana were not the real daughters of
Prince Yusupov because he was unable to have children.

Somebody heard about it?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Athena on August 02, 2005, 05:11:08 AM
Zinaida hat gray hair  :-X
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Marc on September 30, 2005, 03:00:58 PM
Who is the Lady standing with Zenaida in Michailovsky Palace?She looks to me like Grand Duchess Catherina Michailovna,but I may be wrong...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 01, 2005, 03:15:05 PM
Quote
Who is the Lady standing with Zenaida in Michailovsky Palace?She looks to me like Grand Duchess Catherina Michailovna,but I may be wrong...

You were on the right track Mark, the lady is Princess Helena Georgievna of Saxe-Altenburg, Nee Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz,(she was a sister of the Duke who married morgatically Countess Carlow).Her mother was a Romanov while through her father she was a decendant of a brother of George III of England's wife Queen Charlotte and thus was able to secure passage for herself and various family members on the flottila of British naval ships ( Grafton,Nelson,Princess Ena etc) who accompanied the HMS Marlborough when the Dowager Empress left Yalta in April 1919.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Marc on October 06, 2005, 05:15:27 AM
Thank you for this info!Do you know what happened to Helene after the WWI?Did she keep in touch with the Yussupovs?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 06, 2005, 07:07:25 AM
Sorry have no idea. Perhaps she came to England as her two Carlow neices who left the Crimea at the same time,settled in London.Katia who had 3 sons had married Prince Vladimir Emmanuelovitch Galitzine.They had an antiques shop which was patronised by Queen Mary -their kinswoman who promptly paid for any purchases.Katia was killed in an air raid in 1940.The other neice Maria had also married a Galitzine but very saly he had been killed in the civil war leaving her with a small girl and a baby born soon afterward.In the late 1920's ( in Chiswick, West London?)she married Count Kleinmichel who during her latter years acted as a comptroller for Grand Duchess Xenia. Will try to find out more......
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2005, 06:44:57 PM
Please do,I am very interested...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 16, 2005, 12:23:34 PM
Hey are there any good biographys of Zinaida? i would love to read more about her, she seems fascinating!!!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 09:21:24 PM
Quote
Hey are there any good biographys of Zinaida? i would love to read more about her, she seems fascinating!!!



I don't think there are any books about just her, I'd like to find one!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 09:23:07 PM
Quote
Who became "star of St Petersburg society" after her?



It didn't last long after that. :( There was the 1905-06 revolution, Alexandra not wanting to entertain (the 1903 ball was the last in the Winter Palace), then the war and the revolution. There was still an active party life for a few more years, just not with the IF.  Felix wrote of how great the 1912-13 seasons were, the last great days before the end. :'(
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 17, 2005, 03:08:52 AM
Quote
Hey are there any good biographys of Zinaida? i would love to read more about her, she seems fascinating!!!

There is no biography of Zenaida (though several on Felix).However Meriel Buchanan wrote a chapter on the Princess in her book "Victorian Gallery" published in the mid 1950's here in the UK.It is among the 4 or 5 books by the author who was the daughter of the British ambassador in St P till the revolution.They are usually available through libraries.The best descriptions of her life though are stll those in Felix's own 2 volumes of memoirs,despite a couple of inconsistences
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on October 17, 2005, 02:28:53 PM
Quote
Who became "star of St Petersburg society" after her?


Well... Zenaida  retired from  social life after the death of her son Nicolai, then MF moved to Kiev, Alexandra  did not care much for entertaining... So I may take a Wild guess and say that Marie Pavlovna the elder (Michen) had the social stage all for herself.. Unfortunately,  It did not last long....But then.. I do not know when she also left St. Petersburg ....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 20, 2005, 12:18:04 PM
Quote


I don't think there are any books about just her, I'd like to find one!

Meriel Buchanan's "Victorian Gallery" was published in 1956 by Hutchinson. Two years earlier she had written Queen Victoria's Relations and later before her death in 1959 she wrote a memoir "Ambassador's Daughter".The Buchanan's knew Zenaida in Rome in the earliest years of the Princesses exile.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on October 22, 2005, 10:41:02 PM
I have a book called "Ladies of the Russian Court by Meriel Buchanan. One chapter is completly dedicated to Princess Yussupova. It was a very nice read band insight from someone who actually knew her.

I learned how ill the princess really was right before the war. Her husband took her to a spa in Germany hoping she would be  healed. She was so weak, she had to be carried off the train in a strecher.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on October 23, 2005, 09:47:42 AM
I've never heard of that book! What else does it say? What was wrong with her? Felix said something about her 'taking the waters'.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 23, 2005, 12:22:39 PM
Quote
I have a book called "Ladies of the Russian Court by Meriel Buchanan. One chapter is completly dedicated to Princess Yussupova. It was a very nice read band insight from someone who actually knew her.

I learned how ill the princess really was right before the war. Her husband took her to a spa in Germany hoping she would be  healed. She was so weak, she had to be carried off the train in a strecher.

Could you please post details....i.e.publisher,year. Thanks
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2005, 03:26:39 AM
The book was published by Gilbert's Royal Books. The copyright is listed as 2005 and was printed in Cananda. I bought this on Ebay earlier this year.

It lists Meriel Buchanan as the author and it has 6 chapters.

1. Grand Duchess Marie Pavlona
2. Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna
3. Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna
4. Grand Duchess Cyril Vladimirovich
5. Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna
6. Princess Zenaide Yousoupoff

Meriel Buchanan states these intresting things that stood out about Princess Zenaide

1. " She had a remarkable talent for the stage; and, had she been born in another sphere, she might have won fame for both an actress and a dancer, but although there were private theatres at Arkhangelskoie and in the palace on the Moika, which were often used for professional and amateur theatricals, she seldom performed in public herself. "

2. She was " Delicate in health, easily exhausted, essentially feminine"

3. How she almost lost her mind when she saw the body of her dead son Nicholas.

4. How she never complained about her lost fortune or talked about it
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 24, 2005, 05:51:31 AM
Thankyou Ashanti, Sounds like it is a modern compilation of Chapters from "Victorian Gallery" & "Queen Victoria's Relations". Nice to see though Miss B is back in print.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 29, 2005, 12:19:02 PM
Hey, in Greg Kings - "The Murder of Rasputin" their is a lot of info on Zinaida and the Yussopovas! Poor Zinaida, it must have been awful to have gone in to exile!!!  :'(
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 29, 2005, 02:09:30 PM
Quote
Hey, in Greg Kings - "The Murder of Rasputin" their is a lot of info on Zinaida and the Yussopovas! Poor Zinaida, it must have been awful to have gone in to exile!!!  :'(

Yes it must have been heartbreaking to loose homes and possessions, to be unable to visit her son's grave etc...not to mention wealth,influence and position...BUT the Princess was luckier than most.....Her depature from Russia (was to say the least) of the easiest variety AND she left with all her family.....Exile was to be cruel,especially as her husband fell ill almost immediately but not as harsh as many had to endure....at the end of the day the Princess who have no doubt reflected that some of her sufferings in exile were nothing compared to Nicholas's death......
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 29, 2005, 02:17:34 PM
Thats all very true lancashireladandre! Apparently she remained quite cheerful and didn't dwell on it to much!!

She seemed to age well, much better than Felix and Irina did.

Would love to see more pictures of Zinaida if their are any? She is realy beginning to catch my interest!!!
:)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 29, 2005, 04:36:41 PM
Thank you! lovely pic, would love to see some more close up ones. She was stunning!!!!     :)

I just read that Zenaide had a meeting with the Alexandra and when she tied to inform Alexandra of Rasputins true colours she ordered Zenaide to leave and told her "I hope I never see you again!" dramatic stuff!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 30, 2005, 02:05:48 AM
Quote
Thank you! lovely pic, would love to see some more close up ones. She was stunning!!!!     :)

I just read that Zenaide had a meeting with the Alexandra and when she tied to inform Alexandra of Rasputins true colours she ordered Zenaide to leave and told her "I hope I never see you again!" dramatic stuff!

There seems to have been more than one spat/ encounter!!.The girls it seems had first fallen out (perhaps in the Crimea)before 1914 as at Felix & Irina's wedding they did not speak.Then during the war Zenaida requested an audience and was asked to leave as in an almost identical repetition was Ella soon afterward.I think though savy,  Zenaida also thought that she was just the latest in a long line of powerful courtiers( after all that was how her family had built up their wealth & position)and her advice would be heeded. Alexandra,neurotic and prickly to say the least , thought  the Princess was an"over mighty subject",who with others was at the head of a corterie of enemies, part of a evergrowing gang of conspirators. Of course she wouldn't listen( did she ever!). Zenaida's "banishment" from court, may have been one of the main reasons, indeed the sole catalyst for Felix to begin plotting in earnest.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 30, 2005, 03:01:32 AM
Thank you Andre, very interesting!  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on October 30, 2005, 11:34:45 PM
Pictures of Zinaida that I believe have not been posted on this thread.



(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/z22-vi.jpg)


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/zinaidagranddaughter.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on November 01, 2005, 01:25:10 AM
No problem ;D
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: AkshayChavan on November 27, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
I have read that Zinaida and her husband were very different personalities and as felix writes in his book that her husband never really undersood her. I believe she married a wrong man. She would have been far happy marrying sadro or Konstantin Konstantinovich who were in love with her.But that apart, the question i have is " is it possible that count felix sumarkoff elston was a gold digger who married her for money?" I dont know much about him so cannot give an opinion. I would like to know what other people think about this
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on November 27, 2005, 02:43:41 PM
Quote
I have read that Zinaida and her husband were very different personalities and as felix writes in his book that her husband never really undersood her. I believe she married a wrong man. She would have been far happy marrying sadro or Konstantin Konstantinovich who were in love with her.But that apart, the question i have is " is it possible that count felix sumarkoff elston was a gold digger who married her for money?" I dont know much about him so cannot give an opinion. I would like to know what other people think about this

Personally,I do not think Count Felix was a gold digger.He was a typical product of his world.Harsh,strict,militaristic.Not at all at ease in the glittering,arty world, that was more Zenaida's milieu.KR or Sandro or either of the Obolensky brothers would have been more understanding,more in tune with that world.But the marriage was a love match.The Soumarokov's were a wealthy family.Despite the fact there were several brothers & two sisters, Count Felix was not a pauper, so marriage to an immense heiress was something else that was not a nesscaity.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on December 29, 2005, 03:15:54 PM
Quote
Thank you for this info!Do you know what happened to Helene after the WWI?Did she keep in touch with the Yussupovs?

Helen of M-S ( born in St Petersburg 16th Jan 1857)was the daughter of Grand Duchess Catherine Mickhailovna of Russia and DukeGeorge of M-S himself of a junior line of that North German ruling family.She married on13/12/1891 Prince Albert of Saxe-Altenburg (1843-1902)of a junior branch of another minor german ruling family.The marriage seems to have had no surviving issue.After her flight out of Russia (via the Black sea) she seems to have returned to Remplin in Germany (where she had married,so perhaps a Anhalt property), here she died on August 28th 1936.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 04:59:44 PM
I do believe that Zenaida would have been happier with someone who shared her love for the arts, instead her austere husband who hated dancing and theatre, even shutting down their personal theatres and forbidding the boys to act in them. She would have been happier with KR, IMO. It is possible she 'had' to marry Felix since she may have been pregnant. I think this because of the small, quiet wedding consider who she was, and the fact that Felix says in his memoirs that his brother was nearing his 26th bday when shot in the summer of 1908 which would make him born in 1882. Zenaida and old Felix were married in April 1882 and celebrated their silver anniversary in April 1907. Easy to add up, Nikolai was on the way when they got married. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: AkshayChavan on December 29, 2005, 05:38:59 PM
This question has been in my mind for a long time. It is hypothetical question."Suppose" Zenaida had married Sandro or KR would it have been permitted by royal family? Would they have been sent to exile like princess paley or Natasha wulfert? Do u think the children would have been allowed title of princes yussupov?

It is really stupid that Grand dukes could marry not-so-smart princess of minor families, but the stunningly beautifull ,charming and kind Zinaida , scion of one of noblest families of Russia could never be a Czarina.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 06:53:43 PM
I don't think the Yussoupovs would be considered an 'unequal' marriage worthy of banishment, but the person would likely have to sign away their rights to succession and have a 'morgatanic' marriage as Irina did when she married Felix.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on December 30, 2005, 03:13:53 AM
Quote
I do believe that Zenaida would have been happier with someone who shared her love for the arts, instead her austere husband who hated dancing and theatre, even shutting down their personal theatres and forbidding the boys to act in them. She would have been happier with KR, IMO. It is possible she 'had' to marry Felix since she may have been pregnant. I think this because of the small, quiet wedding consider who she was, and the fact that Felix says in his memoirs that his brother was nearing his 26th bday when shot in the summer of 1908 which would make him born in 1882. Zenaida and old Felix were married in April 1882 and celebrated their silver anniversary in April 1907. Easy to add up, Nikolai was on the way when they got married. ;)

I think you must remember something about Felix, HIS ARITHMETIC WAS NEVER GOOD. We have talked before about Zenaida's marriage AND sorted out the fact that she did not need a "shotgun wedding" ( rich people DO have quite weddings, for the simple reason, privacy). In his memoirs Felix wrote of his great grandmother, Zenaida Ivanovna, Countess de Chaveau "who was a 100 years old" when she died in 1897. The old girl was born in 1809 !!!. Felix liked to put fact and fiction in a cocktail shaker to spice events up a bit. Zenaida might have been happier with KR or one of the Obolensky brothers or even Sandro Battenberg. But she picked who she wanted and no doubt was very happy with her husband in other ways....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: AkshayChavan on January 05, 2006, 09:47:59 AM
In most books , Count Felix Sumarokoff-elston comes across as honest and upright man. Greg King writes they had a very stable marriage. The only negative picture comes from Felix's "Lost Splendor". What i suspect is that because Count Elston disapproved of his son's behaviour unlike Zinaida who indulged him, felix potrayed his father as a "monster" who made his beautifull mother unhappy. Maybe Felix "twisted" his father's personality like other things in his book.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on January 05, 2006, 10:38:20 AM
A 'stable' marriage means nothing. I know several couples personally who dislike each other in many ways, but to the outside their marriage appears 'stable' because they are still together and have never openly filed to separate. I do like King's book, but I would say Felix knew more about his father, and his  parents' marriage, than he did. While some may accuse him of lying about things like Rasputin's murder, I would say he'd have no reason not to be honest about how he felt about family relationships.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 05, 2006, 02:40:24 PM
The boundaries of a marriage are the business of the two people involved.Nobody else.Many people are married but are certainly not "Darby & Joan".Zenaida and her husband stuck together for whatever reason.Maybe it was true love, maybe it was out of pride who knows.They could have divorced it was not unknown in their circles.Zenaida's cousin Marie Narishkin divorced Prince Platon Obolensky ( the father of her 2 sons) to marry General de Return.Anastasia of Montenegro divorced The Duke of Leutchenberg to marry Grand Duke Nicholas.There were many more stories.So IF things had been sour there was an escape route.Their marriage was perhaps like so many others of that era,that world.They stayed together out of affection,common ambition whatever.....So their marriage was in its way as succesful as any other.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 15, 2006, 03:51:38 PM
Quote
The boundaries of a marriage are the business of the two people involved.Nobody else.Many people are married but are certainly not "Darby & Joan".Zenaida and her husband stuck together for whatever reason.Maybe it was true love, maybe it was out of pride who knows.They could have divorced it was not unknown in their circles.Zenaida's cousin Marie Narishkin divorced Prince Platon Obolensky ( the father of her 2 sons) to marry General de Return.Anastasia of Montenegro divorced The Duke of Leutchenberg to marry Grand Duke Nicholas.There were many more stories.So IF things had been sour there was an escape route.Their marriage was perhaps like so many others of that era,that world.They stayed together out of affection,common ambition whatever.....So their marriage was in its way as succesful as any other.




personally speaking, i prefer to believe that Zenaïda & Feliks found a sort of happiness together....of whatever type & to whatever degree.

however, a cynical thought occurred to me, and maybe someone else knows more about it:    in many parts of the world, during the time period being discussed, a woman's property wasn't really hers.    her dowry became her husband's, and indeed, anything left to her by her father (or any other relative, for that matter) immediately became her husband's property.    a woman's body was not even her own --- in essence, a woman, and all that she had, was, first, the property of her father, and then, the property of her husband.     now, my question is this:  what were the property rights in Russia during Zenaïda's life?   what had her dowry consisted of?     (even though it's "traditional" purpose was to aid in establishing the marriage home,  in almost all cases, in most countries, dowries became the husband's property automatically, sort of like a payment for marrying the bride.)     does anyone know just how much "control" the elder Feliks had over the assets that had belonged to his in-laws?      

Zenaïda seems to have been a demure-type who would have deferred to her husband....so it may have been that, as sole heir & last of her line, it was she who legally owned the assets, but it was her husband who, by law or by deference, actually controlled them.

if any of the above applied to Zenaïda, her husband & the Yusupov wealth, it could very well be that she simply had too much to lose in a divorce, regardless of whether or not divorce was an option.


any thoughts?


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on January 15, 2006, 05:48:33 PM
I think I did hear that he controlled it. Felix was unhappy that he shut off all the theatres, didn't use them and forbid the kids to play in them. This was one reason Felix didn't like the way his father did his mother and thought she'd have been happier with a 'different sort of man.' He also said his father always had 'an entourage of people he couldn't live without' hanging around, playing cards, drinking, acting up. He even took them on trips with the family. Felix said he, his brother and yes, his mother did not like this. They couldn't stop him. I am really sorry for her she didn't get to enjoy her estates as much in the last days because of her husband.

From the way Felix describes her, she may not have been so demure .She fancied herself Catherine the great, and was upset to think he was not going to keep all the estates when he inherited them (he had plans to set them up as places for artists and other creative people, of course the revolution ruined his plans anyway) I don't think she hated him enough to divorce him, but I don't think they were totally happy. Like I said before, this is common, even today.

There may have been times when she pined alone in her room (and from what I see of the pictures, they did keep separate rooms, and she did stop having kids rather young, so we may speculate they may not have slept together for years) wondering if she should have taken KR. Sandro had a crush on her too, and she did dance with him at balls since her husband didn't dance and she loved to (according to Sandro's memoirs)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ConstanceMarie on March 02, 2006, 05:36:28 PM
Quote
url=http://imageshack.us](http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6897/bonjour2mr.jpg)



He didn't have the img tags right, I fixed them, so if it still doesn't work it must be the site doesn't allow linking. Try using just the addy itself copy and pasted in your browswer (unless pic posts- my comp. too slow to edit this again)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on March 05, 2006, 09:18:22 AM
Thanks Constance Marie,

I'm not really endowed in forums,I'll try to better myself for the last time...sorry for the bad level of my english...

What do you think about the image?
Vassili
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: AkshayChavan on March 05, 2006, 01:36:22 PM
There is a resemblance to Zenaida. The lady could be Zenaida.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on March 08, 2006, 07:19:40 PM
And the place could be Archangelskoye....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: dp5486 on March 21, 2006, 02:43:12 PM
By chance, does anyone know where Zenaide yept her Faberge egg? From what I read on one of the Faberge sites, it was found in one of the secret hiding places in the Moika palace.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on April 09, 2006, 12:28:01 PM
The mistery is ended !

According to the phtograph of the member liljones1968 on the page dedicated to Zenaide Youssoupova (which is the zoom of the serie of photographs that I've posted)we can assert that mine really represented Zenaide in Arkhangelskoie...!

and to see it easily:http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zenaidainherbedroom0qx.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6675/zenaidainherbedroom0qx.jpg][/url]

Thanks to all of you,
Vassili
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on April 09, 2006, 12:37:01 PM
Dear dp 5486,
As far as I remember when I read the book Lost splendour in the french version(Mémoires du prince Youssoupov)it was Zenaide's son:Félix who hides- with the help of a faithfull domestic-all treasuries of the family...His mother since the beginning of the revolution was in Crimea...
Nothing was really precised for every object:the stradivarius,eggs...But some was hidden under the downstairs in a stair I believe...(poor memory!)

Vassili
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on June 06, 2006, 12:49:51 PM
She would have been happier with KR or Sandro? Given what Sandro and KR turned out to be, I am not sure if she would have been any happier with them instead of her own husband. Sandro could never stay faithful to his wife. And KR, although a wonderful man, father and an artist, suffered all his life fighting with his own homosexual tendencies. I have a friend (rather an ex-friend) who is married to a beautiful woman, but secretly visits gay bath houses every week. The sad thing is that most people think their marriage is perfect. The same way, it would have been so unfair to her if KR had married her, even if she never found out about his tendencies.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2006, 08:47:46 PM
Quote
She would have been happier with KR or Sandro? Given what Sandro and KR turned out to be, I am not sure if she would have been any happier with them instead of her own husband. Sandro could never stay faithful to his wife.

And she was not faithful to him. In her diaries she tells of an affair with a man called "F". Perhaps they were not a good match. They were actually very close, second cousins but Sandro was one of Nicky's best friends so maybe they became like brother and sister as years went by. Perhaps if Zenaida had married Sandro, they both would have been happier. I think the main reason she didn't was because Sandro was 5 years her junior, so she was ready to marry at 20 and he was only 15. Felix was 25.

Quote
And KR, although a wonderful man, father and an artist, suffered all his life fighting with his own homosexual tendencies. I have a friend (rather an ex-friend) who is married to a beautiful woman, but secretly visits gay bath houses every week. The sad thing is that most people think their marriage is perfect. The same way, it would have been so unfair to her if KR had married her, even if she never found out about his tendencies.

I have some things to say about this too. First, there are rumors, even a thread here, that 'Old Felix' was gay too. Whether or not he was, it seems they were not lovey dovey as years went by, each doing their own thing (very common in marriages) and sleeping in their own beds. Personally I doubt they had relations much if any at all after young Felix was born, because in his book he describes how she wanted a girl as if it were her last chance and her last try. I had assumed her biological clock was running down, but I discovered she was only 25 when she had him and I wondered why she didn't try again. She'd had 4 sons in 5 years (2 died as babies) and I guess she was done with breeding and wanted to get back to dancing and dressing up and had made up her mind Felix would be her last. This combined with the separate bedrooms leads me to believe it's very possible they quit having sex, and if he wanted it, he went elsewhere with another woman (or man)

As far as KR goes, I think he was more her type because he was a poet, and she was into the arts. Old Felix hated art, theater, etc. and even had the theaters closed off in the palaces. Felix himself said he felt his mother would have been happier with 'a different sort of man.' KR was more her type IMO. The homosexuality is not even a factor. KR had a very large family with his wife in spite of it, and Felix Y. and Irina had a child and a very long and happy marriage though he was gay. Of course if KR had been Felix's dad, he'd have been a different person, and who knows if we'd have had his exciting Rasputin story to tell today!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Johnny on June 07, 2006, 05:23:47 PM
Annie,
I see your point and I find most of your speculations rather plausible.
I also know that many, if not the majority of, princely couples kept separate bedrooms.
Nicholas and Alexandra's practice of sleeping in the same bed every night was sort of frowned upon.
I have also been to the Moika Palace and seen Zinaida's bedroom which had a private wooden staircase leading into Felix Senior's bedroom (it used to be made of glass, but Zinaida found it too dangerous because slippery, so it was replaced).
I believe I read somewhere that Zinaida stopped haing children because her later pregnancies were quite difficult and she had been cautioned by the doctors against further ones.
It seems thier relationship was similar to my parents relationship (although unlike my parents' it started as a love match.) Very incompatible and distant, but had their occasional fun in bed and in public kept up appearances.
I am sure Felix Senior didn't care much for the arts. On the other hand, I don't think he closed the theater becuase of his dislike for the arts. It was simply because he didn't find it appropriate for his wife and son to appear on stage, even if privately. Nicholas II who loved arts, music and opera, hated the idea of Alexandra taking voice lessons. In fact, according to Vyrubova, Alix had to do all her practicing in the opposite wing of the palace, because Nicky just found it unbearable.
And I have this innate opposition to men with homosexual tendencies to marry women. Even if the woman never finds out about it and is happy with her husband, and even if the husband never acts upon it. I know back then things were different and every man was supposed to marry. Perhaps I have to take off my 21st century western glasses off and look at the situation again. But I am just too sensitized because of my friend fooling around behind his wife's back. The more beautiful and eligible a woman is the more unfair I find such marriages to be to her. Otherwise, she is never fully appreciated as a woman. On the other hand, what's more important? Being understood and cared for or just being enjoyed sexually? So who knows, maybe you are right about it!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2006, 06:17:43 PM
I know plenty of women whose straight husbands cheat on them or grow distant and don't spend time with them. It commonly happens as time goes on, it's sad, but I am skeptical that a true love match for life really exists.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Linnea on June 10, 2006, 04:08:37 PM
Quote
Valmont,

Where can I find the biography by Greg King on Zenaida Yusupov?


I didn´t know that there is a biography on Zenaida around - what´s the title?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 10, 2006, 07:17:09 PM
Quote
Quote
Valmont,

Where can I find the biography by Greg King on Zenaida Yusupov?


I didn´t know that there is a biography on Zenaida around - what´s the title?



i'm 99% sure there isn't one.      it is possible that there is one in the works, but i doubt it.

but i'll ask him (greg) anyway.    


i'm wondering, though, if Almedingen was thinking greg's biography of Feliks jr. was a bio of Zenaïde?

.
.
.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 10, 2006, 08:22:59 PM
I think what you're thinking of is the bio Greg wrote of her on this site. It's in the time machine section.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:25:06 AM


  

    Zenaide Yusupov

    by Greg King

    Of all the aristocratic families that comprised the Russian Court, the wealthiest and most important was, without doubt, the Yusupovs. They traced their descent from ancient Tartar khans who had murdered, raped and pillaged their ways to power. In the 16th Century, Khan Yussuf made an uneasy alliance with Ivan the Terrible, forging the first link in a chain of service to the Russian Crown that bound the family to the Romanov Dynasty until the end of the Empire. They were created Princes of Russia and awarded the title of Yusupov after an ancestor, Abdul Mirza, converted to Orthodoxy, a bold and clever decision that probably saved the family from obscurity.

    Princess Zenaide Yusupov was born in 1861, the second daughter of Prince Nicholas Yusupov, Grand Master of the Ceremonies at the Court of Alexander II, and Countess Tatiana Ribeaupierre. The unexpected death of the eldest daughter, Princess Tatiana, left the young Zenaide sole heir to the largest private fortune in Imperial Russia. Tall and slender, with an "exquisite, rose-leaf complexion, luxuriant black hair, and cornflower blue eyes," the young Princess soon became the toast of St. Petersburg Society. Vivacious, even-tempered, intelligent, and exquisitely refined, Zenaide captivated all of those whom she encountered; with her enormous private fortune, she quickly found herself courted by eligible scions from noble families across Europe. Members of the Romanov Dynasty, too, were drawn to her quiet, introspective nature. Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich was one of her early admirers, and dedicated several of his love poems to her in an effort to win her hand. But rather than making a grand match, she instead fell in love with the poor and socially unimportant Count Felix Sumarakov-Elston, an officer in the Chevaliers Guards.

    The Elstons, according to family legend at least, were descended from King Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia through an illicit affair. The King supposedly fell in love with his sister's maid-of-honor who soon found herself pregnant. When she gave birth to a son, the child received the name of Felix Elston, derived from the French expression for astonishment. Felix Elston later married Countess Helen Sumarakov, the last of her line, and received Imperial permission to assume her surname and title. Their son-and Zenaide's future husband-Felix Felixovich, Count Sumarakov-Elston, was born in 1856. Educated at the famous Corps des Pages, he entered the Odessa Lancer Regiment of the Imperial Guard as Cornet in 1876 and two years later took part in the Russo-Turkish War before joining the Chevalier Guards. Tall and handsome, with a dashing cavalry mustache and blue eyes, he cut an attractive figure in St. Petersburg's drawing rooms, and Zenaide fell hopelessly in love. Prince Nicholas Yusupov strongly objected to the proposed union, urging his daughter to find a husband of more suitable rank, but the young woman was determined and, on 4 April 1882, the pair was married in the Chapel of the Chevalier Guards Regiment in St. Petersburg.

    The marriage between Zenaide and Felix was an unlikely one. Renowned for her beauty and grace, she was without prejudice and believed absolutely in the aristocratic ideal of noblesse oblige. She loved society, dinners, and balls, and used her vast fortune to assist struggling painters, sculptors, composers, and singers. Count Felix cared little for such things; with a reputation for eccentricity and a mind fixated on his military career, he stood in bold contrast to his refined wife. Many of those who knew him kindly dismissed the Count as an unimaginative bore, and he was never happier than when attending a military review. Despite the differences, however, Zenaide and Felix managed to create a stable and lasting marriage, and remained touchingly devoted to each other for all of their lives.

    Prince Nicholas Yusupov died in 1891. At the time, he had applied to the Imperial Senate for special dispensation that would allow his son-in-law to assume the Yusupov name, which would otherwise die out on his daughter's death. It took two years before Alexander III finally interviewed and issued an Imperial Ukase granting the surname Yusupov to Count Felix and any of his children. Through this measure, the Yusupov Family was once again saved from oblivion.

    Selflessly, Zenaide abandoned her own pleasures and interests and centered her life round her family. She and her husband had two sons, Prince Nicholas, born in 1882, and Prince Felix, born in 1887, who lived to adulthood. Both boys adored their mother, but relations with their domineering father were usually strained and always formal. Their morning ritual consisted solely of kissing his hand in greeting as he arrived at the dining table. He took absolutely no interest in their lives, asked no questions, and Nicholas and Felix, in turn, never confided in their father, turning to their mother for both love and acceptance.

    Zenaide's life was one of unparalleled privilege and luxury. The family fortune was incalculable: one pre-Revolutionary estimate of her real estate holdings alone placed the figure at $350 million. The family had invested wisely through the years, owning racing studs, industrial works, mineral and oil reserves, real estate, and one of the world's  pt1
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:26:12 AM
greatest private art collections. Even the Romanovs considered themselves poor in comparison with their Yusupov subjects.(Vorres, 98)

The Princess owned an impressive number of palaces and estates. There were three mansions in St. Petersburg; villas at nearby Tsarskoye Selo and at the Krasnoye Selo Army Camp; a Moscow house which had once been the hunting lodge of Ivan the Terrible; a country estate near the former capital; two estates in central Russia; and three different houses in the Crimea. There were other holdings, rarely visited by the family but prized for their financial contributions to the Yusupov fortune. One of their estates in Caucasus stretched for 125 miles along the shores of the Caspian Sea: so much oil came from this land that it literally soaked the ground, and peasants used it to grease the wheels of their carts and wagons. Zenaide and her family visited these holdings each year by private railway carriage, coupled to an ordinary passenger train. This carriage was itself a miniature palace, complete with an aviary, drawing and dining rooms and bedrooms, not only for the family but for their servants as well. It even contained its own kitchen, lest the family be forced to dine on the fare offered by the railway. A similar private carriage always sat at the Russian border with Germany, for continental holidays.

The center of Zenaide's world was her palace at No. 94 Moika Canal in St. Petersburg. Spreads over three floors were drawing rooms, reception rooms, and art galleries. A Moorish Room, complete with a central fountain, had been copied directly from an apartment in the Alhambra. Zenaide's bedroom, hung with watered blue damask, contained long rows of cabinets filled with her priceless collection of tiaras, necklaces, earrings, and brooches. The furniture in her boudoir had belonged to Marie Antoinette; above swirled a chandelier of rock crystal, taken from Madame de Pompadour's bedroom at Versailles. Paintings by Rembrandt, Tiepolo, Fragonard, Bouchier, Watteau, and Robert graced the walls; the furniture was carved and gilded with gold and inlaid with ormolu; and the tables held bowls of uncut diamonds, rubies, emeralds, and sapphires, used as mere decorations. At one end of the palace, separated by a series of galleries, was a private Louis XV-style theatre, in cream and gold.

In these elaborate surroundings, Zenaide held court on a scale equaled only by the Imperial Family themselves. Orchestras and ballet companies were hired for evening entertainments, and a thousand guests might dine on solid gold or silver plate, lulled into a state of enchantment by the perfection of the setting. Infanta Eulalia, aunt of King Alfonso XIII of Spain, recalled one such evening: "The Princess was a most lovely woman, whose marvelous beauty stands out... She lived in extraordinary luxury in a setting of unsurpassed splendor, surrounded by works of art of the purest Byzantine style... The magnificence and luxury of Russia, blended with the refinement and distinction of France, reached its culminating point in the Yusupov Palace... The Princess wore a court gown studded with the finest diamonds and pearls. Tall, exquisitely beautiful, she wore a kokoshnik set with enormous pearls and equally large diamonds worth a fortune. A dazzling array of fantastic jewels from the East and the West completed her costume: ropes of pearls, massive gold bracelets of ancient design, pendants of turquoise and pearls, multi colored glittering rings... All these gave to Princess Yusupov the majestic splendor of a Byzantine empress."
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:26:44 AM
Zenaide's country estate of Arkhangelskoye, on the Moscow River outside the former capital, bordered Ilinskoye, home to Grand Duke Serge Alexandrovich and his wife Elizabeth Feodorovna, and ties between they and the Yusupovs were close and warm. In 1886, Count Felix had been appointed Adjutant to the Grand Duke and, when Serge Alexandrovich was posted to Moscow as Governor-General, the couple followed them. Zenaide and Elizabeth became especially close confidants, a relationship cemented when the Princess spent hours helping the Grand Duchess with her conversion to the Russian Orthodox Church. The two women spent long days together, taking carriage rides through the surrounding forests and picnicking along the banks of the wide, flat river. Prince Felix, Zenaide's youngest son, came to love the Grand Duchess, as he later recalled, as "a second mother," and repeatedly turned to her for advice throughout his life in Russia.

Zenaide was keenly aware of the inequities of the Imperial system and used her position and money to alleviate the suffering she saw around her. At Arkhangelskoye, she built schools, hospitals, new houses, a church, and even a theater, all for the use of her servants and those who lived on the estate, and she took a great interest in their lives. Her son Felix later recalled that no one who ever came to her with a request or favor was ever turned away, and her generosity won her many admirers. While many aristocrats took such paternalistic care of those on their estates, the Princess's dedication to improving the lives of these simple people was starkly at odds with the life of privilege into which she had been born. The French painter Francois Flameng was so impressed by her concern that he once declared: "Promise me, Princess, that when my artistic career is over you will allow me to become the honorary pig of Arkhangelskoye." Such far-sighted attitudes and enlightened benevolence also deeply impressed Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna, and played no small part in her later dedication to the less fortunate.

Zenaide's wealth and power could not, however, protect her from the tragedies of life. In 1907, her eldest son, the tall, dashing Nicholas, fell in love with Countess Marina Heyden, a woman of fiery temperament and undoubted beauty but who had deliberately cultivated an aura of sexual intrigue about her. At the time, the Countess was engaged to Baron Arvid Manteufel and, despite his repeated protests, she engaged in a dangerous game, playing one lover against the other. Nicholas, determined to marry her, appealed to his mother, who was horrified that he would even consider such a scandalous union. Against her will, the Countess married Manteufel, but Nicholas refused to let the affair die, pursuing her on her honeymoon and quickly rekindling their liaison. Disaster was inevitable. One early July morning, Nicholas and Manteufel faced each other across a deserted, dew-covered meadow on the outskirts of St. Petersburg: shots rang out and Prince Nicholas, twenty-five, fell dead.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:27:27 AM
Zenaide had feared the worth, and implored her youngest son to intercede with his brother when she first heard hints of a duel, but Felix maliciously aggravated the situation and unwittingly played a pivotal role in the events that brought it about. He later remembered that morning when his brother's body was carried into the Moika Palace, his father tearful and Zenaide collapsed over the stretcher, screaming over and over again, "Nicholas! Nicholas!" The tragedy nearly broke the bereaved mother; she could not bring herself to even attend his funeral, and spent the next few years lost in a haze of tears, finding comfort only in the care and counsel of her friend Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Nicholas's death left his twenty-one-year-old brother Felix as sole heir to the family fortune. Felix was a curious young man, tall, handsome, and cultured, with a pronounced eccentricity and a well-earned reputation as a dissolute, decadent aristocrat. As a child, he had gone through a rapid succession of nannies and tutors, frightening them all away with his uncontrollable behavior; desperate, his parents finally sent him to a military school before he finished his education with a degree from Oxford University. When he returned to Russia at the end of his three years abroad, he was quieter and more mature, but his dissolution had grown to encompass opium and alcohol, along with his indiscrete affairs with both men and women.

By 1913, Felix's reputation was such that Zenaide insisted he marry, an ultimatum supported by Empress Alexandra. In February of 1914, Zenaide watched, "a look of ineffable sadness in her still lovely cornflower blue eyes," as one guest recalled, as Felix wed Princess Irina Alexandrovna, only daughter of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich and Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, in the chapel of the Anichkov Palace. After the brief honeymoon, Felix's parents joined the newly married couple on a trip to Europe. They were in Bad Kissingen in August of 1914, when the First World War erupted. The group traveled to Berlin, hoping to join the staff of the Russian Embassy on a train bound for St. Petersburg, but they found themselves prisoners in their hotel suite on the orders of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Irina contacted Crown Princess Cecile of Prussia, asking that she intercede with her father-in-law, but Wilhelm was unwilling to release the Yusupovs; instead, he offered them their choice of one of three country estates for the duration of the War, assuring them that they would be comfortable and protected. Patriotically, however, the group continued to push for their return to Russia; in a few days, and under pressure from the Spanish Ambassador, the Kaiser relented and declared that the Russians were free to leave. They made their way to Anhalter Station, only to find it ringed by an angry mob that pelted their motorcar with rocks; Zenaide and her family barely managed to board the train without injury and, with relief, set off for Russia.

In the first months of the War, Zenaide financed several private hospitals for wounded officers and soldiers, and turned the elegant drawing rooms of the Moika Palace into common wards. She gave generously to the Red Cross, funding a number of trains bound for the German Front, and established an organization to assist families left behind in their financial needs. In March of 1915, she became a grandmother when Irina gave birth to a baby girl, called Irina by her parents.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:27:58 AM
It was one of the few bright spots in a life increasingly clouded with sorrow. Nicholas II appointed Count Felix Governor-General and Chief of the Moscow Military District, positions that demanded his presence in the former capital. With reluctance, Zenaide abandoned her son and daughter-in-law and took up residence in Moscow, where she found the population growing increasingly agitated by both the military setbacks of the War and by the common belief that the Empress, under the sway of Rasputin, was somehow involved in a shadowy conspiracy against their country and held strong pro-German sympathies. The issue came to a head in June of 1915, when anti-German riots broke out in Moscow. A large mob gathered in Red Square, calling for Rasputin's murder, the imprisonment of the Empress, the overthrow of Nicholas II, and the installation of Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaievich as Emperor Nicholas III. The military, under the control of Count Felix, was unable to disperse the mob, which eventually gravitated to the Convent of St. Mary and St. Martha, founded by Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna after her husband's assassination in 1905. Here, they resumed their attacks, pelting the Convent with stones and calling for "the German woman" to appear; to quiet them, Elizabeth Feodorovna bravely faced down the mob, only to be met with accusations that she was hiding her brother Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse und Bei Rhein. Only the arrival of a second contingent of armed police prevented violence.

As Governor-General and Chief of the Moscow Military District, Zenaide's husband was charged with maintaining order in the city, and the riot not only served as a visible demonstration of the growing discontent against the Dynasty but also underlined his impotence in the face of opposition. When she learned of this, Empress Alexandra was understandably angry, and demanded that her husband force his resignation. The Emperor, however-knowing that such outbreaks were taking place all over the country-was loathe to confront the Count. Instead, he waited until autumn before summoning Zenaide's husband to an uncomfortable meeting at Tsarskoye Selo. It began pleasantly, but when the Emperor demanded explanations, Count Felix replied frankly that, given the conditions in the country, such displays were to be expected. Then he went further, speaking out against the continued influence of Rasputin-a bold move that sealed his fate. Nicholas II demanded his resignation and the Count, glad to be free of the onerous responsibilities, immediately resigned.

Rather than return to Petrograd, Zenaide and her husband retired to their estate of Koreiz in the Crimea, where they lived quietly for the next eighteen months. In the fall of 1916, Zenaide had an urgent letter from her friend Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna, in which she outlined the current situation as she saw it, and angrily denounced her sister Alexandra's influence and continued reliance on Rasputin. She begged Zenaide to go to Tsarskoye Selo and speak to the Empress, saying that she herself had been all but cut off from their former relationship for several years. With some reluctance, Zenaide agreed, and boarded a train for Petrograd. The Empress received her in the Maple Room of the Alexander Palace and, from the first, the meeting was uneasy. At the first mention of Rasputin, Alexandra asked the Princess to leave, but Zenaide refused, urging the Empress to listen to the growing discontent and abandon the peasant. It was all to no avail: after a few minutes, Alexandra rose, gave the Princess a hard look, and said coldly, "I hope never to see you again!" When Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna arrived and tried to raise the issue, her sister-as she later complained to Zenaide-"dismissed me like a dog!"
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:28:56 AM
It was one of the few bright spots in a life increasingly clouded with sorrow. Nicholas II appointed Count Felix Governor-General and Chief of the Moscow Military District, positions that demanded his presence in the former capital. With reluctance, Zenaide abandoned her son and daughter-in-law and took up residence in Moscow, where she found the population growing increasingly agitated by both the military setbacks of the War and by the common belief that the Empress, under the sway of Rasputin, was somehow involved in a shadowy conspiracy against their country and held strong pro-German sympathies. The issue came to a head in June of 1915, when anti-German riots broke out in Moscow. A large mob gathered in Red Square, calling for Rasputin's murder, the imprisonment of the Empress, the overthrow of Nicholas II, and the installation of Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaievich as Emperor Nicholas III. The military, under the control of Count Felix, was unable to disperse the mob, which eventually gravitated to the Convent of St. Mary and St. Martha, founded by Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna after her husband's assassination in 1905. Here, they resumed their attacks, pelting the Convent with stones and calling for "the German woman" to appear; to quiet them, Elizabeth Feodorovna bravely faced down the mob, only to be met with accusations that she was hiding her brother Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse und Bei Rhein. Only the arrival of a second contingent of armed police prevented violence.

As Governor-General and Chief of the Moscow Military District, Zenaide's husband was charged with maintaining order in the city, and the riot not only served as a visible demonstration of the growing discontent against the Dynasty but also underlined his impotence in the face of opposition. When she learned of this, Empress Alexandra was understandably angry, and demanded that her husband force his resignation. The Emperor, however-knowing that such outbreaks were taking place all over the country-was loathe to confront the Count. Instead, he waited until autumn before summoning Zenaide's husband to an uncomfortable meeting at Tsarskoye Selo. It began pleasantly, but when the Emperor demanded explanations, Count Felix replied frankly that, given the conditions in the country, such displays were to be expected. Then he went further, speaking out against the continued influence of Rasputin-a bold move that sealed his fate. Nicholas II demanded his resignation and the Count, glad to be free of the onerous responsibilities, immediately resigned.

Rather than return to Petrograd, Zenaide and her husband retired to their estate of Koreiz in the Crimea, where they lived quietly for the next eighteen months. In the fall of 1916, Zenaide had an urgent letter from her friend Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna, in which she outlined the current situation as she saw it, and angrily denounced her sister Alexandra's influence and continued reliance on Rasputin. She begged Zenaide to go to Tsarskoye Selo and speak to the Empress, saying that she herself had been all but cut off from their former relationship for several years. With some reluctance, Zenaide agreed, and boarded a train for Petrograd. The Empress received her in the Maple Room of the Alexander Palace and, from the first, the meeting was uneasy. At the first mention of Rasputin, Alexandra asked the Princess to leave, but Zenaide refused, urging the Empress to listen to the growing discontent and abandon the peasant. It was all to no avail: after a few minutes, Alexandra rose, gave the Princess a hard look, and said coldly, "I hope never to see you again!" When Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna arrived and tried to raise the issue, her sister-as she later complained to Zenaide-"dismissed me like a dog!"
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:29:59 AM
Scarcely a month later, Zenaide's son Felix lured Rasputin to the Moika Palace and, with Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich and several other conspirators, cold-bloodedly murdered the peasant. As soon as an investigation revealed his role, the Emperor ordered Felix into internal Russian exile. Accompanied by Irina and their daughter, he left Petrograd for the family estate of Rakitnoye in central Russia; Zenaide and her husband quickly followed them, and the family passed a cold, uncomfortable winter in the isolated house, far removed from the tumultuous events that erupted in Petrograd in February of 1917.

With the February Revolution, and the abdication of Nicholas II, the power that had kept Prince Felix in exile had disappeared, and all of the Yusupovs returned to the capital, once again residing in the Moika Palace. This was a dangerous time, with frequent raids and shootings in the streets, and the experience proved too much for the delicate Zenaide who hastily returned to Koreiz with her family. Although Felix himself made several hasty visits to the Moika Palace to retrieve important paintings and family jewels, no member of the Yusupov Family would ever live within its walls.

In the first months following the Revolution, Zenaide and her husband lived quietly at Koreiz, paying occasional visits to Felix and Irina at her father's neighboring estate of Ai-Todor. There were unpleasant incidents-raids, intrusive surveillance, and thinly veiled threats-but during the tenure of Alexander Kerensky's Provisional Government they felt relatively safe. This changed in October of 1917, when Vladimir Lenin and his Bolsheviks came to power. Although Lenin had little time for the Romanovs imprisoned in various locations, local Soviets took it upon themselves to enforce their own brand of revolutionary justice, and the days of comfort soon came to an end, replaced with frequent deprivation and genuine fear. This uneasy situation was exacerbated in April of 1918 when, following the signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the Kaiser's army occupied the Ukraine and much of the Crimea. The prisoners now faced a Hobson's choice: accept the offers of protection from representatives of a country still at war with Russia, or face the unknown with an increasingly hostile Sevastopol Soviet. In the end, most opted for the Bolsheviks, only to find that the Germans were too powerful and could easily dictate terms of their captivity.

For fifteen long months, Zenaide and husband lived this uncertain existence; when they went to bed at night, behind the walls of their former palace, they could hear the crunch of footsteps as a constant Bolshevik patrol prowled the estate. Their fear was magnified as tales of the brutal execution of the former Emperor and his family in Ekaterinburg began to drift across the Crimea; for Zenaide, the worst blow came when she learned that her close friend Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna had also been murdered, thrown down an isolated mineshaft in Siberia along with six others with whom she had been imprisoned. There was no guarantee that the prisoners in the Crimea, a group that included Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna, her daughters Xenia and Olga and their families, Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaievich and his wife, and his brother Grand Duke Peter Nikolaievich and his family, would not themselves be awakened one night and lined up against a wall to face a firing squad.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: james_h on June 11, 2006, 04:31:04 AM
Finally, at the beginning of 1919, King George V-after the incessant pleading of his mother Queen Alexandra-dispatched a British warship, HMS Marlborough, to rescue his aunt. The Dowager Empress, however, insisted that she would only board after all of those who also wished to leave had been allowed to do so; after much negotiating, the British naval officials agreed, and so Zenaide and her husband, along with Felix, Irina, and their four-year-old daughter, joined the ragged party of refugees that lined the crowded decks, watching as the Crimean shoreline slowly faded into the distance on their way to an uncertain future in exile.

The warship sailed to Malta, where the Yusupovs were forced to disembark. From here, they made their way to Rome, where Zenaide and her husband moved into a small apartment owned by a family friend. Felix and Irina left for Paris, leaving their daughter in Zenaide's care. For the next few years, as Felix and his wife moved from Paris to London and attempted to sell the few possessions and properties still left to them, Zenaide acted as surrogate mother, supervising young Irina's early education and playing with her in a nearby park. The young girl's parents-neither one particularly paternal-relished the freedom that came with Zenaide's care, and they saw their daughter only rarely. Then, in 1928, Count Felix died. He had been unwell for some time, and his wife had bravely nursed him through his final illness, at the same time caring for her granddaughter.

Her husband's death was a severe blow to Zenaide, and her son later remembered that she seemed to "lose much of her spirit" when confronted with widowhood. She moved to Paris, living in two rooms in a Mews house that her son had previously purchased, and for a time these four-mother, son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter-formed a happy, united family. Following his mother's example, Felix devoted himself to assisting fellow émigrés; he had little financial sense, however, and spent and gave away money as fast as it came in, often leaving the family in precarious situations. When Zenaide suffered a stroke at the beginning of the 1930s, Felix struggled to scrape together the funds to hire a nurse to help look after her.

Zenaide's last years, though surrounded by her small family, were lonely ones. She missed her husband, and-despite the fact that she had cared little for the wealth her birth had bestowed upon her-found it increasingly difficult to reconcile herself to life in exile. A second stroke left her half-paralyzed and barely able to speak. Unable to properly care for her, Felix reluctantly put his mother in a nursing home for Russian exiles in Sevres. It was here, far from the glittering world of palaces and extraordinary jewelry she had once known, that Princess Zenaide Yusupov finally died on November 24, 1939. She was buried next to her husband in the cemetery of Ste. Genevive des Bois at Essone, outside Paris. "She had been my friend," Felix wrote sadly, "my confidant, and my support for the whole of my life. She lived through extraordinary events, but she never lost that wonderful, infectious spirit of optimism that had charmed so many of her contemporaries. The crowd of those who genuinely mourned at her funeral was the best tribute to this remarkable woman."
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Morecambrian on June 11, 2006, 05:46:25 AM
Sadly there are a number of mistakes in the otherwise excellent and sympathetic biography. Zenaida was not the younger daughter and she was buried in a new grave to which later the remains of her son and grandaughter with their spouses were interned.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 11, 2006, 08:03:36 AM
Quote
Sadly there are a number of mistakes in the otherwise excellent and sympathetic biography. Zenaida was not the younger daughter and she was buried in a new grave to which later the remains of her son and grandaughter with their spouses were interned.

True, she was not buried next to her husband in Italy but in a new grave in Paris where Felix, Irina, Bebe and her husband were later buried. I would like to see a longer more detailed bio written someday.


Here's a picture of the gravestone with the names:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/felix3.jpg)

This is the site with all the pictures of the graveyard and various views of the grave:

http://youssoupov.tripod.com/cemetery.html

(it's a great site but beware the popup ads)




Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 15, 2006, 08:14:59 PM
I have a question about the buriel arrangments. Why wasn't Felix Senior buried with the rest of this family?  
I mean you have Zinaida, Felix Jr, Irina, Babe and her husband buried together but why not include Felix Senior?

I always found it odd, but have never been able to get a straight answer on this. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 15, 2006, 08:43:01 PM
He died when he and Zenaida and Bebe lived in Italy. After his death and burial there, Zenaida and Bebe moved in with Felix and Irina in Paris. I guess nobody else wanted to be buried there so they started a new family grave in Paris. Also remember Felix was not all that fond of his father, not nearly so much as his mom, so he saw no need to ship her all the way to Italy. He wanted her right there in Paris with him so he could be buried there too. This is my guess but I'd say it's true since they did put her in Paris. I'm sure it broke their hearts not to be buried in Russia.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 15, 2006, 10:04:57 PM
Thanks Annie for the information.

I wonder if Zinaida wanted to be buried next to her husband? Or perhaps they could have moved Felix Senior's body to Paris, but then again that would have been expensive.

I'm sure Zinaida was heartbroken at not being able to be buried in Russia, especially since her son Nicholas was buried there.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on March 19, 2007, 04:15:37 PM
A portrait of Zenaida's maternal grandfather Count Alexander de Ribeaupierre (1781-1865)is included in the Russian sale to be held by Sothebys in New York city on April 10th.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 20, 2007, 07:47:32 AM
Do you think it could have been in Zenaidas possession originally ashdean?? Maybe sold by the soviets??
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on March 20, 2007, 08:50:56 AM
The catalogue provenance does not mention the Youssoupoff's but it might have been. Princess Tatiana Alexandrovna had several siblings...two unmarried neices were kadies in waiting to Marie Feodorevna..so there were several  descendants it might have belongd to...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 20, 2007, 11:27:34 AM
Thank you ashdean! After the revolution it must have been so interesting to have just walked around those empty palaces with all those treasures, which the owners had just abandoned for safety. :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on March 22, 2007, 04:15:38 PM
More pictures of Princess Zenaida

Here with her husband

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zinfelix.jpg)

With husband and sons in Arhangelskoye

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/Untitled-7.jpg)

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on March 22, 2007, 04:17:42 PM


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/Untitled-6.jpg)

Just gorgeous!!!! :o

And this one

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/Untitled-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on March 23, 2007, 01:00:38 PM
WITHOUT A DOUBT...THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN IN IMPERIAL RUSSIA...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on March 24, 2007, 01:05:11 AM
OMG!!! :o :o :o

Svetabel, where did you find those wonderful photograph's of Zenaida? Do you know the around what years they were taken? Those are perhaps by far some of the best pictures of her I've seen in some time. Thank you for posting them.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on March 24, 2007, 02:50:56 AM
OMG!!! :o :o :o

Svetabel, where did you find those wonderful photograph's of Zenaida? Do you know the around what years they were taken? Those are perhaps by far some of the best pictures of her I've seen in some time. Thank you for posting them.

Most of the pictures are around the beginining of the 20 century. They can be found in a new Russian book on the Yousupovs.

BTW, don't you think that Prince Felix (in the 1st picture with Zenaida) looks like Iosif Stalin? ::) :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: RealAnastasia on March 24, 2007, 11:57:10 PM
Yes!!! You're right, Svetabel...At the first time I saw the pic, I tought: "What in heck is Stalin doing beside Zinaida Yussupova? And then, I read it was her husband...Stupid me!  ;D :-[

But at least, I realized I'm not the only one who mistaked Felix father to Stalin... :D

And yes..I agree. Zinaida Yussupova was the more beatiful woman in the whole Russian Empire. She was physically perfect (her son Felix is very similar to her in Physical features), but in add of a real beauty, she had an intelligent face who made her more wonderful yet. Intelligency and beauty not always goes alon, but when they will, the woman who has intelligency and beauty is thousand times more beatiful.

Thanks for the pics. They are unique.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on March 25, 2007, 12:03:49 AM
OMG!!! :o :o :o

Svetabel, where did you find those wonderful photograph's of Zenaida? Do you know the around what years they were taken? Those are perhaps by far some of the best pictures of her I've seen in some time. Thank you for posting them.

Most of the pictures are around the beginining of the 20 century. They can be found in a new Russian book on the Yousupovs.

BTW, don't you think that Prince Felix (in the 1st picture with Zenaida) looks like Iosif Stalin? ::) :)


You're right about Felix Sr. looking like Stalin.

A new book on the Youssoupov's? I need to get this book. I've been trying forever to find Les Youssoupoff by Ferrand but, it's been nearly impossible to find.  Thank you for the information and for posting the pictures.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on March 25, 2007, 06:10:46 AM
OMG!!! :o :o :o



BTW, don't you think that Prince Felix (in the 1st picture with Zenaida) looks like Iosif Stalin? ::) :)
Well Stalin was reputed to have aristocratic forebears on one side of his family....fairytale/legend maybe but who will ever know !!!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 08, 2007, 08:15:16 PM
I was just reading over some books this weekend when something hit me.

It had been reported that after Nicholas, Zenaida's son, died in 1908 she was so devestated that her health began to fail. Her health was so bad that during a trip to a spa in Germany, she had to be carried out of the train on a streacher.

After Bebe's birth she seem's to have gotten better to the extent that she was basically caring for Bebe before the Revolution, if I had read the correspondance correctly. After the Revolution, Bebe was left in the care of Zenaida and Felix Sr. For the next few years, Zenaida cared for Bebe and her ailing husband.

I guess my question is when exactly did Zenaida's health begin to improve? Even as late as 1914 she was still being reported as ill and not fully recovered from her son's death.  Just seem's very sad but at the same time inspiring, that someone who was suffering for some time both emotionally and physically would suddenly recover and take over the care of a child and an sick elderly man.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on April 09, 2007, 09:54:31 PM
I was just reading over some books this weekend when something hit me.

It had been reported that after Nicholas, Zenaida's son, died in 1908 she was so devestated that her health began to fail. Her health was so bad that during a trip to a spa in Germany, she had to be carried out of the train on a streacher.

After Bebe's birth she seem's to have gotten better to the extent that she was basically caring for Bebe before the Revolution, if I had read the correspondance correctly. After the Revolution, Bebe was left in the care of Zenaida and Felix Sr. For the next few years, Zenaida cared for Bebe and her ailing husband.

I guess my question is when exactly did Zenaida's health begin to improve? Even as late as 1914 she was still being reported as ill and not fully recovered from her son's death.  Just seem's very sad but at the same time inspiring, that someone who was suffering for some time both emotionally and physically would suddenly recover and take over the care of a child and an sick elderly man.





perhaps she just needed something else/someone else to focus on...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on April 10, 2007, 06:26:15 AM
I was just reading over some books this weekend when something hit me.

It had been reported that after Nicholas, Zenaida's son, died in 1908 she was so devestated that her health began to fail. Her health was so bad that during a trip to a spa in Germany, she had to be carried out of the train on a streacher.

After Bebe's birth she seem's to have gotten better to the extent that she was basically caring for Bebe before the Revolution, if I had read the correspondance correctly. After the Revolution, Bebe was left in the care of Zenaida and Felix Sr. For the next few years, Zenaida cared for Bebe and her ailing husband.

I guess my question is when exactly did Zenaida's health begin to improve? Even as late as 1914 she was still being reported as ill and not fully recovered from her son's death.  Just seem's very sad but at the same time inspiring, that someone who was suffering for some time both emotionally and physically would suddenly recover and take over the care of a child and an sick elderly man.





perhaps she just needed something else/someone else to focus on...
GOT IT IN ONE..
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on April 14, 2007, 12:02:47 AM
Between the war and the birth of her only grandchild, it would have been more than enough to take her mind off her sorrow.

Poor Zenaida... :-[

I saved this picture a while back, but I've always wondered if anyone knew where I could get a larger version of it. I'm trying to make a scrapbook for my daughter and this small image isn't coming out right :-\

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/ca.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 16, 2007, 09:54:18 AM

**NOTE: it certainly pays to take some time & just "browse" around on the Russian Photo Archive website ( http://photoarchive.spb.ru ).    there seems to be (what amounts to) a dismantled Yusupov foto-album.    the images are in "clumps" & unidentified!   the only information given is (usually) where the fotos were taken.    the only images with more info, are the ones in which a Romanov appears as well.   they are identified....but no-one else is.  but, thankfully, Zenaida is quite distinctive looking (even in a thumbnail!), so it's (relatively) easy to spot her.

.
.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on May 17, 2007, 12:54:36 AM
OMG!!!

Brain you are the best!

Yes you are right, it does take alot of time and looking around. :-\ But the end result is well worth it ;D
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: scarlett_riviera on May 17, 2007, 03:22:18 AM
Lovely photos. The one I like the most is the one with Felix and the peasants in it.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2007, 11:46:20 AM
Thank you for digging them out for us! My computer is so slow I'd never find them.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on May 27, 2007, 02:32:48 PM
Zenaida and her sons in 1891

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zinsons.jpg)

Zenaida and her son Felix in 1899

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zinfel.jpg)


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on May 27, 2007, 02:33:48 PM
The whole family in 1915

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/yus.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on May 27, 2007, 03:07:56 PM
HOLY C ;D ;D ;D!!!!

OMG!!!  ;D :D

Svetabel! Where on earth did you find these wonderful pictures? They are wonderful!!!!I love them all!!!You are one of the best out there for posting these rare finds ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on May 27, 2007, 03:27:19 PM
Yes thank you!! I  hadn't seen 3 of them. Please find more!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 27, 2007, 07:58:54 PM
Zenaida and her sons in 1891




the fotos are wonderful!!      but are you sure this is Zenaida & her sons?      the lady does bear a resemblance, but the 2 boys just don't look like Nikolai & Feliks.      they just don't.......  


they don't to me, anyway. :-\


but it's still a wonderful foto.....whoever they are  :P

.
.


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 27, 2007, 08:03:21 PM
.
.
.

of course,

i could be wrong.....   ;)

.
.
.
.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on May 28, 2007, 01:17:32 AM
.
.
.

of course,

i could be wrong.....   ;)




The source is more than reliable :). The woman and little boys are Zenaida and her sons.

The photos are from one of the brochures on the Yussupov Palace (on Moika).
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Belochka on May 28, 2007, 01:28:30 AM
.
.
.

of course,

i could be wrong.....   ;)




The source is more than reliable :). The woman and little boys are Zenaida and her sons.

The photos are from one of the brochures on the Yussupov Palace (on Moika).

I concur with Svetabel. The photos are most certainly the Yusupov family.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on May 28, 2007, 02:06:01 PM
OH MY GOD! The last 3 pics!! thank you VERY much!! young Felix - *a looot of hearts*
Ive never seen them before.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on May 28, 2007, 04:44:03 PM
The whole family in 1915



Looking back at this I do believe that this is the first & only picture I've ever seen of Zinaida & Irina in the same shot and of Felix Sr with Bebe. Don't believe there are any other pic's out there of them. A double  :o :o!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 28, 2007, 06:07:43 PM
.
.
.

of course,

i could be wrong.....   ;)




The source is more than reliable :). The woman and little boys are Zenaida and her sons.

The photos are from one of the brochures on the Yussupov Palace (on Moika).


i stand corrected  :)


if i may ask (in a greedy sort of way), what else is in the brochure?    ;D



(btw, i was only questioning the one photo...not the others)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on May 28, 2007, 10:25:39 PM
I could tell that was Zenaida and Nicholas, he has a very distinctive face. The only one who didn't look like himself was Felix, but I've never seen a pic of him at that particular age. What a cutie in that outfit, it's distinctive from that time period, you see a lot of it in cartoons and books but not usually in real pics. Thanks for posting and please find us more!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on May 29, 2007, 12:19:05 AM



if i may ask (in a greedy sort of way), what else is in the brochure?    ;D





Well, 2 more pics of Felix, already posted on the Forums. :) And some pics of his appartments in the Moika Palace.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: julia.montague on May 29, 2007, 04:07:18 AM
Svetabel, thank you soo much for the picture of the whole family with little Bébé.  :) I have never seen it before.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 07, 2007, 05:30:18 AM
Im sorry for the quality - this is the only way I can show you the pics I have. of course uoy may have already seen them but they are new for me.))

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2076.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2076.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2075.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2075.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2073.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2073.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2071.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2071.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2067.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2067.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2061.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2061.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2048.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2048.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2047.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2047.jpg)

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/th_IMG_2045.jpg) (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2045.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on June 07, 2007, 07:02:45 AM
I've not seen before the 1st one (in court dress) and 2 last photos. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 07, 2007, 12:06:23 PM
Svetabel,

I'm speechless! :o

Thank you so much for sharing those wonderful pictures! Indeed I had not seen many of them. The picture of Zenaida in a court gown is simply stunning! The family picture of Zenaida holding a baby Felix is a very rare find, actually, these are all very rare.

I have a question, though. In the group photo where the Youssoupov's are with a couple, do you know who that couple is? I think they may have been pictured with them before in series of picture that Brian posted not long ago.  :-\

Ok, enough, Thank you so much and I hope you continue to post more of these lovely finds.



Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on June 07, 2007, 12:17:08 PM
Svetabel,

I'm speechless! :o

Thank you so much for sharing those wonderful pictures! Indeed I had not seen many of them. The picture of Zenaida in a court gown is simply stunning! The family picture of Zenaida holding a baby Felix is a very rare find, actually, these are all very rare.

I have a question, though. In the group photo where the Youssoupov's are with a couple, do you know who that couple is? I think they may have been pictured with them before in series of picture that Brian posted not long ago.  :-\

Ok, enough, Thank you so much and I hope you continue to post more of these lovely finds.

Ashanti, :)

This is Taksa who posted the last photos. We should thank her for such really wonderful pics.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 07, 2007, 12:42:54 PM
 :-[ How embaressing.

I did thank her. I'm just grateful they were posted. I collect these images and place them in my daughter's scrapbook. You see, I named her Zenayda and I want her to know who I named her after. Just wanting to give her a little background on the name, so any pictures you or anyone else is able to post is very much appreciated.  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 07, 2007, 12:52:55 PM
Svetabel
oh Im glad))

ashanti01
haha not at all))

and the two people with the Yussupov family are Graf Nicholas Symarokov-Elston, Grafinya Sofia Symarokova-Elston nee grafinya Cocscool *I dont know how to write the names :-\*
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 07, 2007, 02:22:55 PM

I did thank her. I'm just grateful they were posted. I collect these images and place them in my daughter's scrapbook. You see, I named her Zenayda and I want her to know who I named her after. Just wanting to give her a little background on the name, so any pictures you or anyone else is able to post is very much appreciated.  ;)

Oh, what a lovely thing to do! Hopefull she will grow up to love history and this fascinating Princess!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 07, 2007, 02:27:28 PM
I hope so! ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2007, 02:32:04 PM
Taska, I had not seen most of those before! They're great, can you get them any bigger?

Ashanti, I didn't know you named your daughter after her, how nice!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 08, 2007, 02:57:01 PM
Taska, I had not seen most of those before! They're great, can you get them any bigger?

thank you))
bigger? but the quality is awful! why?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 08, 2007, 03:32:28 PM
Taska, I had not seen most of those before! They're great, can you get them any bigger?

Ashanti, I didn't know you named your daughter after her, how nice!

I'm a bit of a nerd. I named my first daughter, Athena Marie, after Nicholas II's daughter, and when it came down to having another one, I just thought I would name her after someone who represented all that was class and elegance for that period.  :)

I named her after Zenaida but spell it Zenayda. Just a little different, thought it looked nicer on paper. But do you know how annoying it is when people misprounce it? :P So everyone just calls her "Nayda". She's only three months old so plenty of time for people to get it right.  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Valmont on June 08, 2007, 06:53:21 PM
By the way, What was Zenaida's nickname as a child?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 11, 2007, 10:03:03 AM
Valmont
as I know, her relatievs called her 'Kaplushka' for her elegancy. but I dont know, what does it mean...maybe it's derived 'kaplya' - a drop?..this is the only word that is similar to 'Kaplushka'
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on June 12, 2007, 03:16:28 PM
I thought she was know as Princess "Bou"..
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 12, 2007, 03:56:01 PM
I thought she was know as Princess "Bou"..

what is 'bou'?
and where did you find it?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on June 13, 2007, 01:36:55 AM
It was ONE of the nicknames mentioned in Ferrands book AND was also recounted by Princess Tatiana Wassiltchikov (later Princess Metternich, died2006) who was a contempary & friend of her grandaughter and stayed with the Princess in 1938 at Serves while recovering from an illness.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 13, 2007, 06:18:29 AM
It was ONE of the nicknames mentioned in Ferrands book AND was also recounted by Princess Tatiana Wassiltchikov (later Princess Metternich, died2006) who was a contempary & friend of her grandaughter and stayed with the Princess in 1938 at Serves while recovering from an illness.
wow. thank you for the information!
do you have Ferrands book??
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 13, 2007, 10:22:59 AM
Ive just found the pic.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/Untitled-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on June 13, 2007, 10:52:52 AM
Ive just found the pic.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/Untitled-5.jpg)

I had posted this one on another thread on GDss Ella :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 13, 2007, 01:17:24 PM
It was ONE of the nicknames mentioned in Ferrands book AND was also recounted by Princess Tatiana Wassiltchikov (later Princess Metternich, died2006) who was a contempary & friend of her grandaughter and stayed with the Princess in 1938 at Serves while recovering from an illness.
wow. thank you for the information!
do you have Ferrands book??



i know you were'nt asking me, but it's a wonderful book.    fotos of the facades & interiors of their various residences --- Moika palace, chateau d'Arkhangelskoie, villa at Tsarskoie-Selo, Koriez in the Crimea, etc;  
also included are the "villa Tatiana" in Switzerland, the hôtel in the Parc des Princes in Paris (rented by, and later sold to, grand duke Pavel Aleksandrovich during his exile for marrying mme von Pistolkhors, later known as 'princess Paley'.   the book also has fotos (interior & facades) of the chateau de Kériolet, a huge gothic (monstrocity) in France...bought by Feliks' grandmother, for her 2nd husband, monsieur (?) de Chaveau (for whom she also bought the title of 'comte', and for herself, the title of 'marquise de Serre').    after the comte de Chaveau's death, she discovered he'd left the chateau to his mistress.    she bought it back from the mistress & left it to the French government (or some French gov't agency) with the stipulation that it be maintained (ie: kept in good repair).
   (RE: the chateau de Kériolet:   after the revolution, Feliks had the good fortune to discover that the French gov't had not maintained the property or the chateau.  he sued the French gov't for the return of the property (park & chateau), on the grounds that they failed to fulfill the terms of his grandmother's will.   he won the court case & subsequenly sold it, lock-stock-&-barrel.)

the book also contains fotos of a part of the Yusupov's collection of jewelry.    

as i said, it's a wonderful book.


incidentally, i recently ordered the 6 volume set of (pre-revolution) fotos, Noblesse russe : portraits also by Jacques Ferrand.   (the first volume was published in 1985 & the most recent volume (#6) in 1996 i believe.)    
     i can't wait to see what's in them!     if anyone has already seen them, i'd love to know what to expect.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 13, 2007, 03:06:40 PM
brnbg aka: liljones1968
oooh thank you for the information very much!
but are there any pics of Felix that we havent seen on the web?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 13, 2007, 03:41:02 PM

I had posted this one on another thread on GDss Ella :)

oh really? maybe here are people who havet seen it before, like me)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on June 15, 2007, 01:07:39 AM
brnbg aka: liljones1968
where did you order the books? how can we get them?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 15, 2007, 10:36:40 PM


I simply love looking at her pictures. She's the only one who smiles in her pictures both formal and informal.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on June 30, 2007, 03:30:57 AM
Miniature of little Zenaida

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/minze.jpg)

Here Zenaida with her sons

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/znf.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on June 30, 2007, 03:34:17 AM
Blurry picture but all ladies are recognizable :)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zxii1933.jpg)

From l. to r. : Princess Zinaida Nikolayevna, Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, Princess Irina Felixovna Yusupova, Princess Irina Alexandrovna Yusupova (mother of Irina Felixovna). The picture was taken in 1933, and probably after GD Alexander's (Sandro) death.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 30, 2007, 01:57:17 PM
Quote
incidentally, i recently ordered the 6 volume set of (pre-revolution) fotos, Noblesse russe : portraits also by Jacques Ferrand.   (the first volume was published in 1985 & the most recent volume (#6) in 1996 i believe.)    
    


i started "ladies of the nobility in court-dress" in Russian Noble Families
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,9741


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on June 30, 2007, 06:24:14 PM
Wow, I had never seen those last two before, thanks! What a nice view into those parts of her life. Little Felix was so cute! I'd never seen a picture of teenage Bebe, what a nice group shot!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on June 30, 2007, 07:21:14 PM
WOW!!!

First of all, I think that the last picture posed of Zinaida, Xenia, Bebe and Irina is a first of the four them together. Also, I think that's the oldest I've ever seen Zinaida in any picture.

I loved that picture of Zenaida with her sons. It shows how close she was to her boys.

Svetabel, thanks for posting!Where did you find them at?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on July 01, 2007, 02:50:33 AM

I loved that picture of Zenaida with her sons. It shows how close she was to her boys.

Svetabel, thanks for posting!Where did you find them at?

Rare pictures of the Yusupovs can be found in the brochures issued by the Yusupovskiy Palace (Saint-Petersburg palace of Culture for Educators). But you hardly can find them in on-line shops  :(.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on July 02, 2007, 02:43:56 AM
Blurry picture but all ladies are recognizable :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zxii1933.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/zxii1933.jpg)

From l. to r. : Princess Zinaida Nikolayevna, Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, Princess Irina Felixovna Yusupova, Princess Irina Alexandrovna Yusupova (mother of Irina Felixovna). The picture was taken in 1933, and probably after GD Alexander's (Sandro) death.
That picture has always intrigued me.....Grand Duchess Xenia was often described as small while Zenaida was said to be tall (we know Irina was and no doubt her daughter) but in that picture Zenaida looks  if anything slightly SHORTER than Xenia even taking the GDuchesses mourning cap into consideration !
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on July 02, 2007, 11:28:59 AM
Well, I'm sure her weight  and age has something to do with that.

When your slim you look somewhat taller, however when you're heavier you tend to look shorter than what you really are. One must also remember that some people get shorter as they age.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on July 02, 2007, 01:35:50 PM
Very true Ashanti and Xenia was 14 years younger...but still a little mystery....Princess Tatiana Metternich's description of Zenaida in the last year of her life show she was still as magnetic and beautiful as ever..
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on July 02, 2007, 02:56:35 PM
also, if you'll notice the bottom of the photo, Zenaida feet show her to be standing a little behind the rest (and/or possibly above -- as on the step of the french windows) and depending on the actual height of the photographer, the perspective may be playing tricks.   

but i think ashanti's suggestion is much more likely.


come to think of it, if she is standing on the step....that would suggest she was significantly shorter.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on July 02, 2007, 03:49:00 PM
While it is true that some people lose height with age, especially if they are heavy, it looks to me like Zenaida is standing near the door, a little behind them. It appears to me that Xenia and Bebe are together, holding hands, and that Irina is a little in front of them, making her look taller, and Zenaida look a lot shorter.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on July 02, 2007, 06:26:54 PM
While it is true that some people lose height with age, especially if they are heavy, it looks to me like Zenaida is standing near the door, a little behind them. It appears to me that Xenia and Bebe are together, holding hands, and that Irina is a little in front of them, making her look taller, and Zenaida look a lot shorter.


it could turn out to be a combination of all our theories....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: gem_10 on July 05, 2007, 09:57:21 PM
Zinaida Yussupova by Makovsky

(http://img35.picoodle.com/img/img35/8/7/5/mystic_gem/t_0MakovskyKPm_e2cad41.jpg) (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img35&img=/8/7/5/mystic_gem/f_0MakovskyKPm_e2cad41.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on July 06, 2007, 10:55:52 AM
perhaps she was "height challenged" much like Marie Feodorvna.   but for most of her life she had a more slender figure than MF.     her slender figure would lend itself to the illusion of height when photographed.     

also, now that i think about it, am i wrong in thinking the descriptions saying she was tall, were made by those who'd never met her and/or those who'd only seen her from a distance?     example:  her son, Feliks, described her as elegant, among other things, but did he mention her being tall?    i can't seem to recall...    anyone know?
She was described as tall by several people :- Meriel Buchanan,the Infanta Eulalia defintely....Marie of Romania I think....Alexandra was at 5' 7" described as tall...I thought Zenaida must have been at least 5'5"....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 11:21:55 AM
I don't think she was short when she was young. Felix always described her as tall, and people describe Felix as tall, and he was taller than her to be tall for a man, so she must have been about the size of Alexandra (5'8")
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on July 07, 2007, 11:07:53 AM
Well, what was considered tall? Looking closely at some of her pictures she doesn't appear to be tall, but then again maybe 5'4 or 5'5 was considered tall for a woman?

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on July 08, 2007, 02:54:16 PM
thank all of you very much for those photos! Ive never seen them before!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on July 08, 2007, 06:08:52 PM
She was described as tall by several people :- Meriel Buchanan,the Infanta Eulalia defintely....Marie of Romania I think....Alexandra was at 5' 7" described as tall...I thought Zenaida must have been at least 5'5"....


i stand corrected  :)


and y'know, at this point, i hafta say, i have no clue whatsoever what her height was or if she got shorter with age or if she was harassed (or blessed) by odd camera angles throughout her adult life.
..... or.... perhaps..... it could be that everyone else simply got taller?   :P   ...........  we'll probably never know. 




although, i could be wrong.   ;)

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: gogm on July 08, 2007, 07:22:09 PM
Zinaida Yussupova by Makovsky

(http://img35.picoodle.com/img/img35/8/7/5/mystic_gem/t_0MakovskyKPm_e2cad41.jpg) (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img35&img=/8/7/5/mystic_gem/f_0MakovskyKPm_e2cad41.jpg)

Gorgeous! :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on July 08, 2007, 08:21:11 PM
Does anyone know if there are any more painting's of Zenaida out there?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: loulia on July 09, 2007, 04:01:13 PM
About her size, I remember a picture where Felix and Irina are side by side and Felix was just a little little bit taller than her so I don't know if Irina was very tall or if Felix was not that much? but it's obviously one of them and both can explain why Zinaida looks a bit small.
Anyway she was such a beauty that people did not noticed anything about her size I guess, I mean for example Eva longoria is a real beauty and she's only 1m57 and no one notice :D
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on July 22, 2007, 11:42:24 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/hismother_rome_1924.jpg)

Zenaida in 1924
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on July 23, 2007, 01:28:27 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/hismother_rome_1924.jpg)

Zenaida in 1924
There is great dignity & sadness in that picture.Presumably taken in 1924 at the villa in Rome she rented with her husband opposite the British Embassy.Jacques Ferrand must have shared my thoughts as he used it as the very last photograph as he used it as the very last in his 6 volume series of photos of the Russian aristocracy.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on July 23, 2007, 04:42:17 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/hismother_rome_1924.jpg)

Zenaida in 1924

wow! thank you!
is it chihuahua?

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on July 23, 2007, 10:35:44 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/hismother_rome_1924.jpg)

Zenaida in 1924

wow! thank you!
is it chihuahua?


I suspect that is Drolly the pommeranian that Felix mentions his mother bringing with her from Rome in 1926 after his fathers death..Even in the last years the princess always had a pekinese or lap dog of some kind...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on July 23, 2007, 01:52:58 PM
ashdean
hm i dont remember Felix mentioning about  the pommeranian, but I think this dog doesnt look like it much. the pommeranian has more fluffy hair.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on July 23, 2007, 06:38:25 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/hismother_rome_1924.jpg)

Zenaida in 1924
There is great dignity & sadness in that picture.Presumably taken in 1924 at the villa in Rome she rented with her husband opposite the British Embassy.Jacques Ferrand must have shared my thoughts as he used it as the very last photograph as he used it as the very last in his 6 volume series of photos of the Russian aristocracy.



actually, it's not the last foto of the last volume.    it's last foto of volume #3.   
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 09, 2007, 06:42:26 PM
.

click on image for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/zenyus.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/zenyus.jpg)

.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vyacheslav N on August 09, 2007, 08:45:16 PM
beautiful picture brnbg aka:liljones1968 i like the pose
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2007, 12:45:36 AM
Just stunning, Brian! Stunning! ;D That picture shows her beauty very well. Where did you find it?



Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2007, 12:54:17 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/dogadin2.jpg)

Sanatorium in the palace of the Yussupov in the Crimea. Zenaida sits at the center of the table,to the right Irina,
and Felix stands third to the right. Found it in a Russian site, says it was taken in October 1916.



(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/dogadin3.jpg)


Taken in the park of sanatorium. You can see Zenaida, Felix and Irina clearly in this one. Taken on November 1, 1916.


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Belochka on August 10, 2007, 01:30:03 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/dogadin3.jpg)


Taken in the park of sanatorium. You can see Zenaida, Felix and Irina clearly in this one. Taken on November 1, 1916.

Hi ashanti01,

Are you certain that the date is November 1, 1916?

Could you please provide the Russian link?

Thanks in advance,

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2007, 01:33:11 AM
Sure Margarita, its:

http://retro.babr.ru/?event=photo&grub=off&grzd=1916&IDE=dogadin2

I thought I had translated it correctly.  :-\  Let me know if the date is wrong.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Belochka on August 10, 2007, 01:39:59 AM

Your translation was perfect ashanti01.  :D

The reason I ask is that I understood that he was supposed to be in Petrograd at the time.

Thank you for helping me.

Best regards,

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Belochka on August 10, 2007, 03:00:02 AM
I have worked it out.

The date on the website used the New Style date!

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 10, 2007, 04:53:20 PM
Just stunning, Brian! Stunning! ;D That picture shows her beauty very well. Where did you find it?



did you see the one i posted of Miechen & Zenaida de Beauharnais? (in the Vladimirovichi thread)

i also posted a couple of new ones in the noble ladies in court dress thread
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2007, 11:04:10 PM
Just stunning, Brian! Stunning! ;D That picture shows her beauty very well. Where did you find it?



did you see the one i posted of Miechen & Zenaida de Beauharnais? (in the Vladimirovichi thread)

i also posted a couple of new ones in the noble ladies in court dress thread

I did see them and I must admit I'm amazed how you keep finding these great pic's! The last picture you posted of Zenaida Yussupov was just stunning, because it just screams elegance, grace and beauty.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Taksa on August 11, 2007, 10:47:22 AM
brnbg aka: liljones1968
thank you for the pic, Zenaida is very beautiful here.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on August 11, 2007, 12:01:00 PM
So beautiful and I'd never seen it before! Thanks again Brian! :D
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on August 20, 2007, 06:44:14 AM
The Yusupovs and their relatives the Soumarokov-Elstons in the end of the 1880s. You can see Felix-senior, Zenaida and their eldest son at left in the picture

(http://www.picatom.com/8/yusum-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/8/yusum-1.html)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: berno on August 20, 2007, 02:06:54 PM
Thanks Svetabel for your wonderful pics. Do you now the other sitters in this picture?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on August 20, 2007, 02:45:55 PM
Thanks Svetabel for posting that picture. Hope you continue to post these rare pic's
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 20, 2007, 11:30:35 PM
.

some of you may already have this, but for those that don't....


click on image for larger version


Zenaida at her desk in the Moika palace

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/yuszenstudy3.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/yuszenstudy3.jpg)


.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on August 21, 2007, 01:59:45 AM
Thanks Svetabel for your wonderful pics. Do you now the other sitters in this picture?

I only know that the old lady in black (sitting second from right) is Countess Ekaterina Tizengausen, who supposedly was a lover of King Friedrich Wilhelm III and a mother of Felix Elston (1828-76), father of Felix-senior, husband of Zenaida.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on September 06, 2007, 01:45:41 AM
Found this picture of Princess Zenaida and her husband Felix on a site. It's from the 1903 ball, but I had never seen this image before.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/zenaidafelixball.jpg)

In attempting to make it a little bigger, I also made it not as good : (

Here's the link to where I found it. Maybe someone knows how to expand it without hurting it's quality.
http://www.asm.rusk.ru/07/asm2/asm2_5.htm
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on October 05, 2007, 11:54:03 PM
.

y'know, if i haven't mentioned it before, i have to say:  ashanti01, you are an absolutely amazing foto-archaeologist!!   
or, if you prefer, image-detective / image-archaeologist.    either way, you're amazing :-)



personally, i think the better title is image-archaeologist.    detectives, generally, follow a string of clues from a starting point provided by others.     archaeologists follow strings of clues as well, but rely heavily on intuition & hunches (based on experience) to find a place to start looking.


whatever the case may be, you are, without a doubt, a treasure-hunter with "the golden touch"!


as ever, thank you very, very much!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on October 06, 2007, 02:34:43 AM
Dude, you made me blush!!!! :-[

But thank you, for the wonderful compliment. I'm just like other's who are captivated the Yussupov's and their world. I must say that you have posted several rare pictures yourself as well as Svetabel and Taksa. 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on November 14, 2007, 10:56:47 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/post-12991-1140189141.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 24, 2007, 06:43:14 PM
A larger version of Zinaida Yussopova that Ortino posted:

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_2888872290094285158pTQJtf_fs.jpg) (http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/2888872290094285158pTQJtf_fs.jpg)

She has this almost ethereal beauty to her, very much in her eyes.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on November 29, 2007, 06:53:55 PM
This is highly probable that someone posted it beofre, but I have a try...princess Youssoupova on the front of her datcha in Tarskoye Selo...

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/princessyoussoupov.jpg)

Vassia
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on November 30, 2007, 01:54:25 AM
Very nice! You have a date for it? It hasn't been posted before in this thread but there is another picture I believe was taken at that time with Zenaida and Felix.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on December 09, 2007, 01:06:49 PM
I think this has to be my favorite portrait of Zenaida. Where did you find it Brian? I mean the large version, cause I've only seen a small version of it.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on December 10, 2007, 02:23:05 AM
Isn't there a copy or smaller copy of this painting hanging in Zenaida's bedroom in the Moika palace today?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on December 13, 2007, 03:44:30 AM
I have nothing more on this photo...sorry to disappoint you ashanti01

Vassia
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on December 15, 2007, 01:57:30 PM
One of my favourite of Zenaida

(http://www.picatom.com/c/zinayus-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/c/zinayus-1.html)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on December 16, 2007, 01:04:49 AM
You know for a long time I thought that this picture was taken either right before or right after the Revolution, however seeing as many pictures as I have of her during the first world war, I think it may have been taken as early as 1910 give or a take a year. DOes anyone know when it was taken?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Svetabel on December 16, 2007, 01:59:21 AM
You know for a long time I thought that this picture was taken either right before or right after the Revolution, however seeing as many pictures as I have of her during the first world war, I think it may have been taken as early as 1910 give or a take a year. DOes anyone know when it was taken?

The photo was taken in 1913 by a photographer Heine.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashanti01 on December 16, 2007, 08:57:03 AM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Mari on January 09, 2008, 06:52:02 AM
The Pelegrina belonged to Marie Antoinette right? I believe that is posted in an previous link Why was it a talisman to Princess Zinaida? I believe She also owned  furniture of Marie Antoinette's is there a special significance? Beautiful photo's by the way.... 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 09, 2008, 08:56:54 AM
The Pelegrina belonged to Marie Antoinette right? I believe that is posted in an previous link Why was it a talisman to Princess Zinaida? I believe She also owned  furniture of Marie Antoinette's is there a special significance? Beautiful photo's by the way.... 
The Pelegrina did not belong to Marie Antoinette...please look on the earlier Youssoupoff jewel thread to see its history...and its fate after  Zenaida's death in 1939 and its sale by Felix to the jeweller Jean Lombard of Geneva in 1952.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Mari on January 10, 2008, 02:08:41 AM
Thank you found it.
Quote
La Pelegrina belonged to King Philip IV and he gave it to his daughter Maria Teresa when she married Louis XIV of France in 1660. However, there is no document to confirm that this pearl was among the French royal jewels
Quote
.  But I missed the next sentence and assumed the pearl was still in the French Jewel collection....too bad they cannot confirm it. I would like to know what happened to it between then and it turning up in the Yussupova collection.  :)
 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 10, 2008, 02:50:45 AM
Thank you found it.
Quote
La Pelegrina belonged to King Philip IV and he gave it to his daughter Maria Teresa when she married Louis XIV of France in 1660. However, there is no document to confirm that this pearl was among the French royal jewels
Quote
.  But I missed the next sentence and assumed the pearl was still in the French Jewel collection....too bad they cannot confirm it. I would like to know what happened to it between then and it turning up in the Yussupova collection.  :)
 
It was bought in Moscow by Princess Tatiana Youssoupoff from the Zosima brothers (dealers?) nobody knows  FOR SURE if it was the same pearl that Louis XIV's wife had brought from Spain.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Windsor on January 18, 2008, 11:00:12 AM
Does anyone know how Zinaida dressed in exile?  Did she maintain her previous style?  Did she wear her jewels?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 18, 2008, 12:07:34 PM
In exile Zenaida dressed very simply..she had put on weight,she had little money or inclination for fashiom...her day had past. Princess Tatiana Metternich a friend of her grandaughter remembered her wearing soft,lacy clothes and a broad velvet neck ribbon to replace the pearl dogcollar and describes her as supremely elegant.She at the end of her life still owned the Pelegrina,the Azra necklace and a pair of important pearl & diamond stud earrings (salvaged from pawn by the MGM payout)...However she seems to have worn little jewelry..perhaps rings but only a very modest strand of pearls...perhaps this was as much in deference to less fortunate fellow emigrees..
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Windsor on January 18, 2008, 03:09:33 PM
Very interesting, thank you Ashdean.

Any idea of how she spent her days?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 28, 2008, 02:35:49 PM
I was thinking that it would be interesting to see the Princesses will and the items she owned at the time of her death.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Annie on January 28, 2008, 05:31:28 PM
However she seems to have worn little jewelry..perhaps rings but only a very modest strand of pearls...perhaps this was as much in deference to less fortunate fellow emigrees..

According to Felix in Lost Splendor, she 'wasn't fond of jewelry' and never wore much, even in his youth. Maybe she was more of a collector than a wearer.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 29, 2008, 04:46:30 AM
However she seems to have worn little jewelry..perhaps rings but only a very modest strand of pearls...perhaps this was as much in deference to less fortunate fellow emigrees..

According to Felix in Lost Splendor, she 'wasn't fond of jewelry' and never wore much, even in his youth. Maybe she was more of a collector than a wearer.
I think she was like our dear Queen...A INHERITOR !!! who wore when needed (and enjoyed on occasion) wearing her wonderous gems,had items adapted or created but was not totally obsessed with them....the Pelegrina seems to have been the only historic gem she really cared about....At the start of the last century she was a valued customer of Cartier..however it was for "fashionable gems of not great importance" no doubt lavish gifts for her fabled Christmas tree...
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Windsor on January 29, 2008, 07:34:37 AM
Great question, Eddieboy!

Does anyone have an idea as to what Znaida owned at her death? 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 29, 2008, 09:47:28 AM
Great question, Eddieboy!

Does anyone have an idea as to what Znaida owned at her death? 
I would imagine  apart from The Pelegrina very little...The Azra necklace & pearl earrings..other trinkets like rings....family paintings & bric a brac,the furnishings of her 3 rooms.. very little in the way of cash.Felix no doubt saw to her bills and gave her (or her maid) cash when needed etc
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Windsor on January 29, 2008, 12:54:10 PM
My apologies in advance if this has already been discussed before, but does anyone know where the above mentioned 3 rooms were located?  Any pictures?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: ashdean on January 29, 2008, 03:50:07 PM
My apologies in advance if this has already been discussed before, but does anyone know where the above mentioned 3 rooms were located?  Any pictures?
In a home for refugees in the Serves district of Paris.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 10, 2008, 08:33:04 AM
The watch 328 is also a gift of Irina to the woman  their lawyer
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: katmaxoz on March 13, 2008, 04:55:44 PM
It was ONE of the nicknames mentioned in Ferrands book AND was also recounted by Princess Tatiana Wassiltchikov (later Princess Metternich, died2006) who was a contempary & friend of her grandaughter and stayed with the Princess in 1938 at Serves while recovering from an illness.
wow. thank you for the information!
do you have Ferrands book??



i
incidentally, i recently ordered the 6 volume set of (pre-revolution) fotos, Noblesse russe : portraits also by Jacques Ferrand.   (the first volume was published in 1985 & the most recent volume (#6) in 1996 i believe.)    
     i can't wait to see what's in them!     if anyone has already seen them, i'd love to know what to expect.

Where did you order these books from ?  I'd be interested in getting a set if I can find who sells them....?

thanks

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 30, 2008, 05:10:57 AM
Letter of Princess Yusupov, to his son on an auction with some of their works of art:


In English:

dear Felix, I'll return this interesting catalog [an auction organized by the Bolsheviks taking place in Germany].
It must be very vigilant and attentive on the identification of objects belonging to us, because otherwise our protests and our steps are not taken seriously.
What I am perfectly safe and can certify on the following:
1) page 101, No. 359 and 360 on the pastel signed Boucher representing two heads of women, it is a very rare and very pretty, I remember from my childhood, she was in private practice work of my father. In addition Rotari was thereafter found a copy at home to Arkhanguelskoïé.
2) page 105, No. 385, this opens Greuze comes from the collection of Good Mom [princess Zénaïde Ivanovna, born Narychkine (1809-1893)], it was in a mind frame, what I remember with certainty He was out of the apartment the Parc des Princes [reference to the mansion is now 4 avenue Robert Schummann in Boulogne sur Seine, which belonged to his grandmother Princess Zénaïde Ivanovna, born Narychkine (1809 -1893)].
3) page 107, No. 383 and 384: These two heads of just Greuze my own studio and were even identified as such in the French catalog of an exhibition on this artist, they were well at home. 4) page 125, No. 366: Portrait of an unknown woman signed Gosoloff GA, was in the gallery yellow and white and did indeed ever so interested. For Claude Vernet and Lorain, I am not very sure because there were many among us, but also to the Hermitage. The portrait of Catherine II by is certainly not against us based on its size, it most likely comes from the Hermitage palace, where there were many. For bronze objects it is very difficult to identify. Page 57, it seems that everything is up to us, but in any event many can be found in the world and can look at ours. Page 96, the scene of bronze figure of John of Bologna, with the size of a man is certainly to us, as the removal of junipers is a unique piece made from a wax lost in the texture was grainy and not polished as all other bronzes of this artist were in my [missing continued] "

In French:

cher Félix, je te retourne cet intéressant catalogue [d'une vente aux enchères organisée par les bolcheviques se déroulant en Allemagne].
Il faut être très vigilant et attentif sur l'identification des objets nous appartenant, car sinon, nos protestations et nos démarches ne seront pas prises au sérieux.
Ce dont je suis sûr et peux parfaitement certifier sur les objets suivants :
1°) page 101, n° 359 et 360, sur le pastel signé Boucher représentant deux têtes de femmes, c'est une pièce très rare et très jolie, je m'en souviens depuis mon enfance, elle se trouvait dans le cabinet de travail de mon père. De plus Rotari a fait par la suite une copie se trouvant chez nous à Arkhanguelskoïé.
2°) page 105, n°385, cette ouvre de Greuze provient de la collection de Bonne-maman [princesse Zénaïde Ivanovna, née Narychkine (1809-1893)], il était dans un ravisant cadre, ce dont je me rappelle avec certitude, il a été sorti de l'appartement du Parc des princes [référence à l'hôtel particulier se trouvant aujourd'hui 4 avenue Robert Schummann à Boulogne sur Seine, qui appartenait à sa grand-mère la princesse Zénaïde Ivanovna, née Narychkine (1809-1893)].
3°) page 107, n°383 et 384 : Ces deux têtes de Greuze viennent de mon propre cabinet de travail et ont même été identifiées comme telle dans le catalogue français d'une exposition sur cet artiste, elles se trouvaient bien chez moi. 4°) page 125, n°366 : le portrait d'une femme inconnue signé G.A. Gosoloff, était dans la galerie jaune et blanche et ne m'a d'ailleurs jamais tellement intéressé. Pour Vernet et Claude Lorain, je ne suis pas très sûr, car il y en avait beaucoup chez nous, mais aussi à l'Ermitage. Le portrait de Catherine II par contre n'est certainement pas à nous d'après sa taille, il provient très probablement du palais de l'Ermitage, où il y en avait beaucoup. Pour les objets en bronze il est très difficile de les identifier. Page 57, il me semble que tout est à nous, mais de toute façon un grand nombre se trouve dans le monde et cela peut ressembler au nôtre. Page 96, la scène de personnage en bronze, de Jean de Bologne, ayant la taille d'un homme est certainement à nous, comme l'enlèvement des sabines est une pièce unique faite d'après une cire perdue dans la texture était granuleuse et non polie comme tous les autres bronzes de cet artiste se trouvaient dans ma [il manque la suite]"