Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Rasputin => Topic started by: Alixz on June 13, 2007, 06:59:33 PM

Title: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 13, 2007, 06:59:33 PM
Rasputin was known to the Imperial Family from 1905 to his death in 1916.  So for eleven years he was available for visits and consultations.

I have read that he spent "very little time" with Alix and the children.  And almost no time with Nicholas.

Then I have read that he was always on call and that he was available for religious comfort as well as the "healing" of Alexis.

I know that most of his meetings were held in Anna Vyrubova's little house at Tsarskoe Selo and not in the Alexander Palace itself.

But just how many times did he see Alexei to "heal" him and just how much time did he spend with Alix and OTMA?

And during the war, Alix's letters are filled with "advice from Our Friend", did he actually see her or was all of this done by telephone? Because from her letters it would sound like she saw him or spoke with him every day!  :-\

I have been very confused by this for years.  ???   I hope that someone can clarify this.  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 14, 2007, 02:53:25 PM
This is a very interesting question Alixz.   So far as I am aware, nobody really knows.   The Secret Police files will hold this information, but, so far, those have not been released by GARF.

I believe the family only met with Rasputin on very few occasions.   He did visit Livadia where he was received by the family and there is a photographic record of this.   Although he visited Anna Vyroubova's house regularly, the Imperial Family were not usually present.   Vyroubova acted as a conduit - an example of this took place on the day before Rasputin's murder.   The family probably entrusted any correspondence with her.   All telephone conversations were listened into by palace 'secuirty'.   The family were aware of this and would have been mindful of the fact.   By the outbreak of the first war, Rasputin was, of course, completely persona non grata at the Alexander Palace.   Even before then, I believe any visits were infrequent and usually in a response to a crisis in the tsarevich's health.   

I know from a first hand witness that Rasputin was a frequent visitor to Tsarskoe Selo.   The late Rene Beerman's father was pastor of the Lutheran Church there.   The family lived on the ground floor of the Church.   Renee Beerman recalled how, as a boy, he frequently saw Rasputin being driven in a cab through the town.   I assume he on those occasions he was there to meet with Anna Vyroubova.   He certainly visited her in hospital after her near fatal train crash.

It is worth remembering that, from the outset of the Revolution and virtually ever since, Alexandra Feodoronva and Grigory Efimovich have been the 'whipping boy and girl'.   This makes it all the more difficult to tease out the facts from the fiction.

tsaria     
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 14, 2007, 03:27:48 PM
On an other thread, the FA wrote that Alexandra met Rasputin in person less than ten times in all these years. Apparently, Alexandra did not feel the need to meet him often, at least in later years. She said to Lili Dehn in 1916: "Why does Gregory stop in Petrograd? The Emperor doesn't wish it. I don't. ..."
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 14, 2007, 07:05:04 PM
tsaria - thank you for your reply.

On another thread FA has said that he will be "looking some" things up for me concerning this topic.

So how then, did Rasputin have so much influence and play so large a role in Alix's letters to Nicholas during Nicholas's time at Stavka if Alix and Rasputin rarely met?   ???
 
And in her letters, Alix doesn't' say that Anna V told me that Rasputin said ....xyz.  She says that "Our Friend" says as if she were talking to him and getting the advice from him personally.   :-\

How could so many ministers be called up and replaced if all this had to be done through a "conduit" like Anna?  Alix must have been at her house or Anna at the palace everyday? Or there must have been much note carrying, but no notes survive.

And I guess the most troubling thing to me is how many times did Rasputin actually see Alexei and "heal" him?  We know of one time at the palace and the one time "in absentia" at Spala.  Was that enough proof for Alix that Rasputin had her son's life in his hands?  Just twice?
In eleven years, Rasputin only 'healed' Alexis twice and that was enough to bring down the Imperial Family?  Alexei must have had more than two moderate to severe attacks in eleven years!   ???  He was an active boy with "dare devil" tendencies because of the unusual stifling care that was lavished on him.

And according to the Lutheran minister's son, Rasputin was seen frequently being driven in a cab through the town.  So he was in close proximity on a regular basis but did not see the Empress or Alexei.

I hope to find out more about this. I was wondering about the Lili Dehn source.  Was that from Lili's book or from Alix's letters to Lili?

 Thank you, tsaria, again.  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 15, 2007, 01:29:20 AM
I hope to find out more about this. I was wondering about the Lili Dehn source.  Was that from Lili's book or from Alix's letters to Lili?
It's from her book, p. 113.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 15, 2007, 08:30:33 AM
Helen,

I began reading Lili Dehn's book about Alexandra on line years ago.  I never finished.  I would do much better if I had a copy which I haven't found yet.

I am going to look it up on line again, and also see if I can find a reasonably priced copy.

Thank you
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 15, 2007, 02:53:45 PM
tsaria - thank you for your reply.


So how then, did Rasputin have so much influence and play so large a role in Alix's letters to Nicholas during Nicholas's time at Stavka if Alix and Rasputin rarely met?   ???
 
And in her letters, Alix doesn't' say that Anna V told me that Rasputin said ....xyz.  She says that "Our Friend" says as if she were talking to him and getting the advice from him personally.   :-\


Well, for one thing, the first telephones were installed in the Alexander Palace in 1896. Alexandra had her own phone right next to her chaise in the Mauve Room. Certainly  by 1913 there were thousands and thousands of phones all over Petersburg.  I'm certain that Rasputin spoke to her by telephone FAR more often than he saw her in person.

Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 15, 2007, 02:59:01 PM
Alixz - don't forget at the outbreak of the revolution, the Empress, with the help of Lili Dehn, spend days - and nights - destroying correspondence, diaries etc.   Alexandra  Feodorovna was convinced by other incidents of 'healing' - the nose bleed in the train while returning from Stavka - is one example which springs to mind.

Nicholas remained rather sceptical about Rasputin the Healer, apparently tolerating him only because of the soothing effect he appeared to have on his wife and son... until the train accident in early 1915 when Ania Vyroubova was almost killed.   Both Emperor and Empress were at the Palace Hospital and told by doctors that Ania was in extremis and probably would not survive.   It was with great reluctance that Nicholas finally agreed to permit Rasputin to be called from St Petersburg.   As a direct result of Rasputin's intervention, it seems Vyroubova was miraculously 'cured'.   Thereafer, Nicholas was persuaded there was something to this man's healing powers.

The frequent, flowery letters written by Alexandra - delivered by Ania Vyroubova - were part of the character of the Empress.   She spent hours every day 'working' on her correspondence.   The over exuberance was partly her personal style and partly symptomatic of the period.    Of course, it was a pretty one-sided correspondence.   Rasputin could bearly write - although under instruction this did improve with time.   He was never, what one could describe as, fluent.

Yes, according to Renee Beerman, Rasputin was a frequent visitor to Tsarskoe Selo.   Even then Tsarskoe Selo was a fair sized town and Rasputin wasn't necessarily always in close proximity to the Alexander Palace.   He could have been visiting other 'friends' or 'patients'.   But, he probably did his best to ensure he maintained as close a proximity as possible with the Imperial Family.

I agree with you about the accusations levelled at Alexandra re the hiring and firing of government ministers on Rasputin's whim - or advice.   It does seem strange this was accomplished at a distance.   Perhaps this is yet another example of Bolshevik disinformation.

tsaria

Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 15, 2007, 03:01:31 PM
I was under the impression that there were telephone intercepts on all the palace telephones, FA.   Indeed, this was used as the reason why Nicholas was so reluctant to use the telephone.   He knew palace 'security' eavesdropped on all his conversations - telephone and otherwise.

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 15, 2007, 03:19:23 PM
True Tsaria, Spiridovitch's men AND the Palace operator listened in to all telephone calls made by the Emperor and Empress, however I'm certain Alexandra still did not let that stop her from calling "her friend".
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 15, 2007, 07:24:38 PM
True Tsaria, Spiridovitch's men AND the Palace operator listened in to all telephone calls made by the Emperor and Empress, however I'm certain Alexandra still did not let that stop her from calling "her friend".

I do not have the impression that Alexandra phoned Rasputin at all. Anya Taneeva certainly did.

There are two matters worthwhile to consider, firstly after the rumors began flying around the city about their alleged "relationship", Alexandra would never have compromised herself by telephoning directly. Secondly, Rasputin's phone was also monitored by the ever present Okhrana.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 15, 2007, 08:26:31 PM
Yes, according to Renee Beerman, Rasputin was a frequent visitor to Tsarskoe Selo.   Even then Tsarskoe Selo was a fair sized town and Rasputin wasn't necessarily always in close proximity to the Alexander Palace.   He could have been visiting other 'friends' or 'patients'.   But, he probably did his best to ensure he maintained as close a proximity as possible with the Imperial Family.

tsaria

For any one person to suggest that Rasputin was seen to be a "frequent visitor to Tsarskoe Selo" depends on one's definition of "frequent" and whether that observer was honest with their statement. I agree that the locations where he was seen to frequent may have been at any location with the city of Tsarskoe Selo. The years when those observations were made are also of relevance.

During the war, Rasputin was often visiting a number of the Tsarskoe Selo infirmaries on behalf of the many person's who sought information about their wounded.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 15, 2007, 10:53:40 PM
So, that brings me back to my original question.  Just how many times did Alix actually meet with Rasputin and how many times did Rasputin actually "heal" Alexei?

It is OK to say that Nicholas et al were impressed with Rasputin's other medical miracles and or reports of miracles of an kind, but just how much did Alix and Nicholas actually see with their own eyes?

I, too, don't believe that Alix would use the phone as it went through a switchboard and was not private.  If she had, then the "rumors" of Rasputin's involvement in government affairs would no longer have been rumors.  They would have had the palace operators and the Okhrana as "ear witnesses".

So in eleven years of interaction of Rasputin in the affairs of the Imperial Family, if Rasputin only saw Alix less than ten times, that is less than once a year  ???  That is not much time for her to become so enamored of his "wisdom" and "healing" power. 

Granted the "healing" of Vyrubova in 1915 is a big time mystery, but that was in 1915 about two years before Rasputin's death and Alix had already given him her undying trust long before that.

So why was she so committed to him?  I've been trying to find sources that tell me exactly when Rasputin saw Alix and why he saw her.

From Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna we know of one visit when Alexei was well enough to be "jumping about like a rabbit" and Rasputin prayed with him and calmed him immediately.

We also know of one bad attack where Rasputin was in the Alexander Palace to "heal" Alexei.  And, of course, Spala in absentia.  And someone mentioned a "nose bleed" on the train coming back from Spala, but again Rasputin was not there.  (and was that in 1912 as well?)

Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 16, 2007, 01:25:29 AM
So, that brings me back to my original question.  Just how many times did Alix actually meet with Rasputin and how many times did Rasputin actually "heal" Alexei?

I do not believe it was a healing process at all. Rasputin was summoned to the Palace to pray over Alexei's bedside, on December 6, 1915 (following a severe nose bleed after he had contracted a cold earlier in Mogilev Headquarters). ("Cure" # 4)

The famous Spala crisis of October 1912. ("Cure" # 3) - no direct bedside intervention.

There was one direct encounter in the summer of 1907 following a leg injury. (Cure # 2)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rasputin came to St. Petersburg for the first time in May 1904.

The first time Nikolai II and Alexandra met Rasputin was at the Montenegran sister's (Stana and Militsiya's) residence on November 1, 1905 at the Sergievka Palace.

The next encounter was not until July 18, 1906 at the same Sergievka Palace.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would take a while longer before Rasputin first set foot in the Alexandrovskii Palace. He was first invited on Friday October 13 1906.

On this occassion he met all the children as well. Alexei was in recovery at the time from a earlier (less than critical) crisis. However, Alexandra had believed that Rasputin's prayers helped Alexei to settle for the night. (Cure # 1)

It seems that the actual "spiritual" help in allegedly curing Alexei was only on four or so occassions at most. On three of these occassions he was considered close to death, which added to the element of fear and emotional trauma and subsequent dramatic survival with its own set of emotions attached. Alexei's other bleeds were not considered so serious to warrant other intervention.

It is OK to say that Nicholas et al were impressed with Rasputin's other medical miracles and or reports of miracles of an kind, but just how much did Alix and Nicholas actually see with their own eyes?

 The only other time they both saw an alleged "cure" was after Anya Taneeva lay comatose following her railroad accident and was not expected to live. That was in January 2, 1915. Again it was the body slowly healing itself. All Anya did on that occasion was to open her eyes and then go back to sleep. That was the nature of the "miracle".

Granted the "healing" of Vyrubova in 1915 is a big time mystery, but that was in 1915 about two years before Rasputin's death and Alix had already given him her undying trust long before that.

This incident gave Alexandra another firm reason to believe in Rasputin's so called healing capabilities.

The fact that Anya underwent months of rehabilitation and later would occassionally require a stick to aid her to walk with comfort, sometimes racked by back pain, or suffer headaches was not considered to be relevant.  

They would have had the palace operators and the Okhrana as "ear witnesses".

I like that!  :D

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 16, 2007, 01:40:52 AM
Belochka:

Here I am in the middle of the Easter Standard Time night - it is 2:30AM here.  Searching the Internet for books on Imperial Fashions.  I am not doing very well.

Thank you for the time line on the actual events.  That puts it in better perspective.

Do we know what was the very first thing that made Alix sit up and take notice (besides meting Rasputin at the Montenegrin sister's home)?  Why did she invite him to the palace on Friday October 13, 1906?  Was she just curious about this "man of God" or was she testing the waters as Alexei was recovering and she wanted to verify Rasputin's abilities.

The meeting with Grand Duchess Olga - was that on Friday, October 13, 1906 as well?  Since Olga mentions that Rasputin went into Alexei's room to pray with him.  (for those with an aversion to Friday the 13th - what an inappropriate date!)

I appreciate your help as you always have the information at your fingertps  :D
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 16, 2007, 01:48:35 AM
So why was she so committed to him? 

Rasputin became indispensable to the family’s spiritual needs, and more importantly for Alexei, he was seen to be Alexei's savior following the boy's most critical hemophiliac crises. Alexandra had associated Rasputin’s prayer vigil with the alleviation of Alexei’s condition. It was all a matter of timing. Rasputin was only summoned when the crisis had peaked and Alexei's own body began to repair itself naturally.

The family's association with Rasputin had lasted for 10 years. Their meetings were irregular and took place mostly at Anya's small house always in the mixed company of others, including the Okhrana.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 16, 2007, 02:27:52 AM
Belochka:

Here I am in the middle of the Easter Standard Time night - it is 2:30AM here.  Searching the Internet for books on Imperial Fashions.  I am not doing very well.

Thank you for the time line on the actual events.  That puts it in better perspective.

I appreciate your help as you always have the information at your fingertps  :D

Thanks for your kind words Alixz!  :)

Why did she invite him to the palace on Friday October 13, 1906? 

Exactly why that specific date was selected is not known. Rasputin sent a telegram to the Palace requesting an audience. The date may have been initially arranged by Count Frederiks or some other staff member who then sought Nikolai's approval.

This was the entry in Nikolai's Diary:

"Grigorii arrived at 6.15 and brought us a St. Simeon Verhoturskii icon. He saw the children and chatted with us until 7.15."

The meeting with Grand Duchess Olga - was that on Friday, October 13, 1906 as well?  Since Olga mentions that Rasputin went into Alexei's room to pray with him.  (for those with an aversion to Friday the 13th - what an inappropriate date!)

It must have been the same date.

I did not want to emphasize Friday the 13th. Some today may enjoy the connection but I consider that it was just like any other working day.  ;)

Margarita  :)




Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 16, 2007, 04:10:14 AM
Renee Beerman was born in 1904 - so it was during the war years.   You are right, Belochka, for a young lad his memories of seeing Rasputin will have been enhanced according to the enslaught of noteriety.   

He recalled seeing Rasputin, and also regularly saw the Grand Duchesses riding out in a carriage.   When their father was at home, he usually rode alongside.   Alexandra Feodorovna was seldom present.   Renee also remembered seeing Lenin in 1917, standing on the balcony of a cinema in Tsarskoe Selo, in his usual haranguing mode.   He and his brother travelled by train into Petrograd to see Lenin 'perform' from Kschessinskaya's balcony.   

Renee Beerman told me that, at the time of the revolutions, the Feodorovsky Sobor suffered more than any other church in Tsarskoe Selo because of its close association with Rasputin NOT with the Imperial Family - with Rasputin.

I think the meetings/friendship/relationship between Alexandra Feodorovna and Grigory Efimovich were, in large measure, grossly exaggerated, firstly by disaffected members of the Imperial family and the aristocracy, then by the thugs who effected the overthrow which, in part, was facilitated by these same 'disaffected' family members and their hangers on.

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 16, 2007, 08:21:14 AM
Belochka - I didn't mean to make a lot of "Friday the 13th", to me it makes no difference and since I was born on a 13th, my birthday falls on Friday every so many years.  In fact I turned 13 on Friday the 13th     ::) ::)

As I think all of  the evidence over, I find it difficult to believe that Alix was so "devoted" to a man she hardly saw.

I believe, as you do, that Rasputin's appearances at Alexei's sick bed were indeed coincidental and that when Rasputin was called, it was right about the time that the crises was abating anyway.  That is why I always put "healed" in quotation marks.

There had to be either more or less about this whole thing than we are privy to.  The more involves Alix embroidering shirts and belts and giving Rasputin "gifts".  If she saw him so little, why would she devote her energy to giving him these gifts.  And also, there are the supposed "holy or blessed" items that Rasputin sent to her.  If she saw him so little then the gifts had to have come through Anna Vyrubova (which I think we already know).

"Healing" Alexei only four times over a period of 10 years and Anna once (I admit that one is mysterious for the times, but today we know that patients who have been declared beyond hope often rally and somehow pull themselves back) does not seem, to me, to be enough to addict Alix to the man.

But if this is all there was, then it probably was "disinformation" that was put out by disaffected parties both before and after the revolution.  Could even the extended Imperial family truly get upset over three actual visits and one "long distance" "healing" over a period of ten years? Even if they didn't know of the "healing" which we suppose they didn't, why would four "visits" have caused so much commotion.  I know that they were supposed to be upset that a "common peasant" was received but the royal relatives were not, but it looks as if the "common peasant" was not received so very much.

1906 -1907- 1912- 1915.  There is a long time span between most of the "healing"

1906 - I can see this as a happy accident that might have alerted Alix to the possibility of something "spiritual" or miraculous.

1907 - Was Rasputin called in on this one?  Or was it again, a happy accident.

Now comes the long time period when we know that Rasputin removed himself from St. Petersburg for various reasons and was even asked by the Tsar to go away.  Does that mean that during this five year period Alexei had no serious or moderate attacks and was in no need of "healing".  That is a pretty impressive time period for a young hemophiliac boy.

1912 - We know that Rasputin was not at Spala.  Thus the famous telegram.  However, Alix was sufficiently "devoted" by this time to insist that a telegram be sent to him and Nicholas agreed.

Now we have a three year period of no known "intervention on Rasputin's part.

1915 - This time he was "summoned".  But after Spala that comes as no surprise.  And this would also be after Vyrubova's miracle as well.  By now, Rasputin was "on a roll".

So I am back to Alix's belief in and devotion to this "Starets".  I could see it if he was "healing" Alexei at every turn, but it is fact (I guess) that he didn't.  I know that Alix was "more Orthodox and the Orthodox".  Was it truly just his teachings and visits to Anna's house that convinced and comforted her?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 16, 2007, 11:30:52 AM
You obviously must suspect another dimension Alexz.   If so, what, where and when?

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 16, 2007, 11:38:53 AM
from Spiridovitch's "Raspoutine"...
In early 1906, Alexandra was close to the Montenegrin Grand Duchesses, Militsa and Anastasia.  Nicholas and Alexandra spent alot of time visiting Militsa at the Znamenka Palace at Peterhof in July 1906.  They also spent time at this period with Anastasia at Sergeievka.  It was here they first met Rasputin July 18 (OS).  They also met Rasputin later at Znamenka. It was at this time that Spiridovitch's secret police investigated the "peasant with some small attraction to Their Majesties" who conducted the evening service in the little "Podvorie" church between Old Peterhof and Sergeivka.  Alexandra loved that little church and was its patroness.  The police learned that the "blue shirt" peasant in question shuttled regularly between Sergeivka and Znamenka. They felt that this little peasant priest posed no danger to the security of the Imperial family and so investigated no further.  His impression on the IF was one of a true man of God and of the people of Holy Russia.  Alexandra was very interested at this time in reading about the "Holy Men of God" who were common in Russian History, for example, Anya V. recalled how Alexander I had an attraction for Holy mysticism, and Alexandra was similarly disposed. The first book Alexandra ever gave Anya V. was "The Friends of God" in 1905.  The book essentially says how God grants certain divine grace to to pious and humble men, to do is good work on earth. Both Nicholas and Alexandra believed this.

Further, don't forget that during 1906, Bishop Theophane, The Imperial Confessor himself, was a protector and supporter of Rasputin, so WHAT better "blessing" could there be in the eyes of Nicholas and Alexandra of the truth of Rasputin's "holiness"? So combine that with the support of Militsa and Anastasia the Black.

So, it was decided by N&A that Rasputin should meet their children at some point soon.  On October 12, Nicholas received a petition letter from Yaroslav Medved, Archbishop of one of the Petersburg churces, asking that the Emporer receive the "staryets" Grigori Rasputin who was bringing a gift for him from Siberia, an icon of St. Simeon of Verkhoturie. It said that should His Majesty condescend to receive Rasputin, he should send Prince Putyatin to his home  to bring R. to the Palace for the audience. Spiridovitch says that there was no doubt in anyone's mind that Nicholas himself had given his prior blessing to this petition as a means to get R. to the Palace in a "down low" fashion (to use today's jargon).  Thus, Rasputin was summoned to Court the next day, October 13.

It was Nicholas, actually, and NOT Alexandra who brought about this first meeting.




Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 16, 2007, 11:53:17 AM
tsaria - I'm not sure right now.  As with many readers, I always thought that Rasputin was a constant "companion" of Alix.  I thought that she and he spoke quite often and that he visited her along with Anna V at Anna V's "little house" on a regular basis.

I guess my question is this.  If Rasputin only "healed" Alexei four times and only saw him perhaps three times over the course of almost 11 years, what was it that made Alix so devoted to him?  Not just the "healing" certainly as the first time was an accident, the second time (accident of not?) but then there were five years before Spala. 

So why was Alix so certain that Rasputin could "intervene" at that time?  It wasn't as if he had been turning out miraculous "healing" on a weekly or monthly or even yearly basis  ???

So during that five year period, did Alix talk to him?  Did she get reports of miraculous doings?  Something is missing here. During that time, Alix had to have received some kind of "proof" of Rasputin's powers and I think she was too smart to just believe in court gossip or general rumor.

I understand the war years because Spala had happened by then and then there was Vyrubova's accident and also Alexei's nosebleed.  By the second year of the war when Alix pressed Nicholas to take command of the troops, Rasputin had her completely.  Even to the point of strengthening her conviction against Grand Duke Nicholas Nicholaevich (who by that time was married to Anastasia Montenegro who had spurned Rasputin and moved away from his influence)

I guess I am hunting for a clue as to what happened during the first seven years besides one "accidental" healing and the 1907 event.

FA  That makes sense that Nicholas would be the one to issue the first invitation although he didn't initiate it as he was asked by Medved to receive the "staryets".
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 16, 2007, 02:46:54 PM
Alixz
Using Spiridovitch's bio, here is a brief "precis" of the years in question for you:
1908: Rasputin's popularity with the people of Petersburg surges and he gains his admirers, most particularly Vyroubova.  He spends most of the summer at Tsarskoe Selo staying at the homes of some Guards officers, there were several visits to the Palace to meet with the IF. During this period, Alexandra attributed the good health of the Tsarevich directly TO Rasputin's prayers and intercession with God on his behalf.  He was at Vyroubova's regularly and Nicholas and Alexandra went there "more than once" to listen to him preach. Sorry no exact count.

Winter early 1909- this is interesting. Spirid. says that he met often with a certain Dr. Fischer, the best psychiatrist then at Tsarskoe Selo who was treating Alexandra. He diagnosed Alexandra even then as suffering from "extreme nervousness", particularly as a result of her closeness to Vyroubova. He went so far as to advise the Emperor to distance his wife from Vyroubova (and thus Rasputin as well).  Alexandra was so upset that she "fired" Dr. Fischer. Spirid. says that after this "Rasputin stayed in close contact with the Imperial Palace, the primary reason being, at that time, the state of health of both the Empress and Tsarevich."

Stolypin brought his first report on Rasputin's behavior with prostitutes to Nicholas, who "made a joke of the affair." Rasputin went back to Tobolsk in late 1908, after Okhrana chief Guerassimov issued an arrest warrant for Rasputin and have him removed from TS and Petersburg.  There appears to be some evidence that Rasputin was 'tipped off' in advance.

In 1909, Stolypin again brings a report of the investigations into Rasputin to Nicholas' attention. When Nicholas had the report investigated it turned out to be full of false negative information about Rasputin.  Nicholas tells Stolypin "Peter Arkadievich, I must ask you to never bring up this matter again.  He is a holy man. This is a family matter which is our personal affair." Nicholas then orders the Okhrana to stop investigating Rasputin.

Late 09 early 1910 Rasputin spent travelling, Alexandra wrote him letters regularly.  This is when Tyutcheva and Vishnakova complain of Rasputin's lewd behavior toward them.  Father Iliodore and Bishop Theophane defended Rasputin to the Emperor and Empress. They side with the Church. Thus, Nicholas and Alexandra decide that Rasputin should become their "confessor". Bishop Hermogene and Father Iliodore teach him his lessons to prepare him.
August -November the IF is in Germany

Early 1911 - the scandal in Tsaritsine sends Rasputin back to Pokrovskoe.  Nicholas sends Capt. Mandryka of his personal Guards to Pokrovskoe to Tsaritsin.  At Tsaritsin, all of the religous people tell Mandryka with enthousiasm how they are often visited by the "Tsar's favorite" Father Grigori, who always told them how much he loved the Emperor, the Empress and their children and how he was often received at the Palace.  The local authorities told him however that R. was a Khlysti, debauched, who seduced young girls and abused women "possessed by demons."  He returned on Feb. 10, mardi gras day, to report back to the IF. He hid none of the scandal he had heard from his report, and burst into tears saying "I must tell you, that this is the person who enjoys the favor of Your Majesties."
Nicholas then orders that Rasputin shall never appear before him again.

Rasputin then goes on pilgrimages across Russia and to Palestine.  During this time Father Iliodore influences the Emperor to be more benevolent towards Rasputin. In fact, it was the prolonged absence of Rasputin away from Nicholas and Alexandra that had the actual affect to bring him closer to them. Rasputin writes them regularly. Nicholas pardons Rasputin. They receive Rasputin upon his return from Jerusalem.  He travels to Tsaritsin for several months. He is also then in Kiev, when Stolypin is murdered. Rasputin is invited to Yalta for the Emperor's birthday on December 6.  He returns to Petersburg several weeks later.

1912 Scandals break as the press begins to use letters and photographs of Alexandra and the Grand Duchesses to imply Rasputin was having sexual relation with them all. More reports about Rasputin are presented to Nicholas by Rodzianko. Finally, in March, the IF invites Rasputin to go with them to the Crimea. They had made up their minds. Rasputin goes to Pokrovskoe and the IF goes to Bielovezh and Spala. We know what happens from there.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 16, 2007, 04:10:40 PM
Alixz, if you're looking for 'an other dimension' to understand Rasputin's influence better, you may be interested to read Janet Ashton's article The Religious Outlook of Russia's Last Empress (http://www.bl.uk/collections/eblj/2006/article4.html (http://www.bl.uk/collections/eblj/2006/article4.html)). 
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 17, 2007, 09:58:12 AM
FA - thank you so much for the translation of Spiridovitch.  I knew there had to be more to the story that "just three or four 'healings'"

There was much social and written interaction between Alix and Rasputin from at least 1908 on.  It is not only Rasputin's visits directly to the Alexander Palace but his visits to Anna's house where he met with Nicholas and Alix.  I thought that Alix couldn't have been so devoted to someone with whom she had had no contact from 1907 to 1912 and, in the beginning of my research anyway, that is the way it looked.

I find the "firing" of Dr. Fischer interesting as well.  This is the first overt sign of Alix "eliminating" the influence of a person who advised against Rasputin's presence.  The presages the hiring and firing of ministers during the war.

Also, if Rasputin was their "confessor" then they say him quite regularly.  I don't know a lot about Orthodoxy, but wouldn't the family have "confession" quite often in order to receive the sacrament?

Also from Spiridovitch we find out that Rasputin "traveled" with the family and stayed at other Imperial residences such a Livadia.

However, FA, Nicholas's birthday was in May not in December was Spiridovitch incorrect in his reporting of that particular invitation?

Helen:  Thank you for the suggestion.  That article sounds very interesting.  Because I know that Alix became "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" and it would be interesting to see how Ms Ashton explains it.

Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 17, 2007, 10:26:00 AM
Alixz

Two points. Rasputin was not the ONLY confessor to the Emperor and Empress, there were at least three that I can find, all at the same time.

The December date is Nicholas' name day, Spiridovitch was using the same term as birthday, which Russians do quite often since both celebrations in Imperial times were exactly the same importance.  That translation is not a direct passage, but rather the synthesis of about 150-200 pages of the book which took me about 3 hours to go through and I wasn't really paying attention to the December date. Thanks for reminding me.

The general feeling I got from going through those pages was that equally important to the actual amount of time Rasputin may have spent with the Empress over those five years, which wasn't really a large percentage of time, literally a total of hours equal to perhaps a few days over five years, but rather the BELIEF that Alexandra had, very deep seated that Rasputin was actually a holy humble man given special grace by God to do his work on earth, THAT to me and Spiridovitch trumps any actual contact the two had.


Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 17, 2007, 10:56:14 AM
FA - I had forgotten about the "name day" - Thank you.

And also, thank you for taking all of that time to go through Spiridovitch's work for me.  Has his work ever been published in English - I haven't heard of anyone say that it had been.

Alix's belief in Rasputin is, of course, very important, but I was trying to find out why she believed in him so much.  If she hadn't had much interaction with him, I couldn't understand the fascination.  But the fact that she attributed her health and her son's to his close presence and intervention during those five years makes much more sense of the Spala incident.

The fact that he "travelled" with them and visited them at other palaces also makes sense.  And that she wrote copious letters to him while Rasputin was travelling shows that she was "constantly" in touch with him even though he was not in St. Petersburg.

The first "accidental" calming on October 13, 1906 probably "peaked" her interest and since she was looking for the "true Russian" he fit the bill as well.  Do we know if the second incident in 1907 was "accidental" (meaning did he just happen to be there as on October 13, 1906)  as well or was she in the habit of calling him by then?

And during that five year period from 1907 to 1912, there seem to be no major "healings" but it now seems that Alix was never out of contact with Rasputin whether he was in St. Petersburg or on his "travels". And perhaps there were other "long distance 'healings'" during that time, not a spectacular as Spala, but important enough to reinforce Alix's fervent belief.

So by 1910 Rasputin was one of several confessors.  I always thought that the Imperial family members had one special confessor that they kept by them.  As in Alexander III sending his "personal confessor" to begin Alix's religious instruction after the engagement.

Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread.   :D
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on June 17, 2007, 07:42:44 PM
... Alix's belief in Rasputin is, of course, very important, but I was trying to find out why she believed in him so much. 

Alexandra understood and agreed with the simplicity of Rasputin's spiritual counselling. Added to her belief that Rasputin soothed her son each time he was called upon, Alexandra had the perfect combination which no ordained clergy was able to provide after St. John of Kronshtadt's death in 1908.

The important fact is that Alexandra believed in him, and as a mother with a child with an incurable condition she was always comforted by his unique spiritual guidance.

Few outsiders would ever understand the role Rasputin played in the Court, because that association was veiled in the strictest of confidences.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 17, 2007, 11:37:23 PM
I do understand Alix's belief and it was unquestioning.

However, many have made the point that actual physical visits were few.  I couldn't see how anyone could build a belief in an other's 'healing" powers if one had not actually seen the results of those powers. Perhaps a belief in his "teachings" and vision of God and man's relationship with Him, but not the fervent belief that Rasputin held Alexei's life in his hands.

That is why I was trying to discover just how many times Rasputin had visited Alix and Alexei.  I think, in the beginning, that we were only looking at the times when Rasputin "intervened" and/or visited the Alexander Palace.

However, Rasputin was invited to spend time with the IF at other locations and to celebrate name days and holidays.  Which probably meant that other family members were also present and that it was not a "private" visit and so we over looked these times.  And there was the constant written communication (although Rasputin must have had someone writing for him as he was illiterate) during the times when he was travelling or had been sent away.

But Rasputin must have been one heck of a religious "salesman".  His brand of comfort and religious interpretation certainly appealed to Alix and, at first, to Nicholas.  Obviously Nicholas came to a parting of the ways with Rasputin, but by that time Alix was so indoctrinated that Nicholas knew he had to put up and shut up.  As he said (and this is a paraphrase) one Rasputin is better than ten hysterical out breaks from Alix.

How hard it must have been for Nicholas.  We always focus on Alix and the difficulties she faced as the mother of a hemophiliac, but poor Nicholas, not only the father of a hemophiliac, but the husband of an hysterical woman.  A woman he loved above all other things, even his throne.  And while he would not blame Alix for transmitting hemophilia to Alexei, he could not comfort her and take the burden away from her either. 

For all of his earthly power, Nicholas could do nothing for his wife or his son.  And I just realized that knowing this, Alix would have no where else to turn except to God and to "a man of God".  Alix truly believed that the common Russian was more Russian than the elite and so Rasputin was the perfect presence and the perfect time.

Someone wrote (and I don't remember who) that Rasputin at the Alexander Palace would be like Og visiting the White House.   But it is not the same at all.  And in mystical Byzantine Russia it made all the sense in the world.



Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 18, 2007, 07:34:26 AM
Firstly, thank you Alixz for raising this very interesting - historically important and relevant - topic.   Thanks a million FA for taking the time to source such valuable information.   Lots of food for thought in there.

One point of note in particular, and, I hasten to add, I am not implying anything at all conspiratorial... isn't it an amazing coincidence that Rasputin was in Kiev at the time of the Stolypin assassination.   Was this purely because he maintained a close proximity to the Imperial Family, in case of emergencies, because of the totally unpredictable nature of the Tsarevich's illness?   I think this fact indicates there is much more to this subject than, probably, we will ever really know.

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 18, 2007, 07:52:31 AM
Tasria - Thanks  :D

I thought about Rasputin in Kiev as well.  And your theory about Rasputin keeping a close proximity to the Imperial family makes sense.

According to Alex De Jonge "Soon afterwards Rasputin displayed visionary power of a different kind.  From Nizhny he had gone to Pokrovsokoe for a short stay, to be joined there by Vyroubova, and from Pokrovskoe had travelled on to Kiev, where the tsar and tsarina were to celebrate the inauguration of local government in southwest Russia."

I know that only Nicholas and Olga and Tatiana were at the theater when Stolipyn was shot.

Again De Jonge  "It was arranged that Rasputin would stay with the leader of the local branch of a moderate monarchist organization -...   The next day Rasputin joined with members of the organization to watch the tsar parade through the city.  The leader had trained his men to produce a "Hurrah" of quite exceptional volume with which to attract the imperial attention.  Sure enough the empress turned to them as she passed and they shouted; she noticed Rasputin, who promptly gave her his blessing."

Where would the Imperial family have been staying while in Kiev?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 18, 2007, 09:31:04 AM
The IF stayed at the Imperial Palace in Kiev. Read nothing more into Rasputin being present in Kiev than any of the other members of the Court at the time. He was, after all, by then one of the family's confessors and considered (though hated by many others ) as a member of Court.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 18, 2007, 02:59:11 PM
Thanks FA - I don't think that either tsaria or I were reading anything more into his bein Kiev than staying close to the Imperial Family.

And the fact that Anna V met up with him before he left Pokroskoe and (I assume. De Jonge doesn't say) traveled on to Kiev with him only solidifies that view.  And the IF or at least Alix must have known that he would be there as she would have known of Anna 's plans as well.

And about that "personal confessor" thing.  Did each of the members of the Imperial Family have their own "personal confessor"?  Someone who would be their main and special confessor?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 19, 2007, 06:16:53 AM
You know, this aspect of Russian Orthodox Church worship is so special - it transcends description.

My spiritual father is Father Markel of the Feodorovsky Sobor (now Bishop Markel of Petergof).   Though thousands of miles divide us, I still hold to his opinions and advice.   Whenever in Russia, a meeting with Father Markel is my number one priority.   In fact, if necessary, I would travel there just to see him.

Therefore, I find no problem in understanding and appreciating Alexandra Feodorovna and the unbreakable strength between her and her spiritual father.   The fact that it was Grigory Rasputin is incidental to the fact.   

Unlike Rasputin, Father Markel is a properly ordained Orthodox priest - indeed in addition to his pastoral role(s), he is professor of Church history at the Theological Academy in St Petersburg.   However, it is the special relation between the individual and their 'personal confessor' or spiritual adviser that matters.

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 19, 2007, 08:24:38 AM
Tsaria - That is exactly what I was asking.  FA said that Rasputin had taken steps to become a confessor to the IM. Then he said that Rasputin was one of many confessors.

But of course, we have all read that Alexander III sent his "personal confessor" to begin Alix's instruction.

So I asked if every member of the IF had a personal confessor.  I asked because knowing what we know about Rasputin and his sense of self importance to Alix, I thought it quite possible that she would have made him her 'personal confessor" and used him to the exclusion of all others except when he was unavailable.  I can't imagine Rasputin taking a back to seat to another after he had gained the confidence of the Empress.

And with what Alix believed that Rasputin could do, I thought that she herself would want him to be her primary source of spiritual comfort and spiritual forgiveness and spiritual link to God.  She would want to always have that special bond to Rasputin that would in turn give her a special access to the ear of God and his intervention in the illness of her son.

However, the sad part is that Rasputin, for all of his unexplained "miracles" was not a pure and properly ordained priest.  I think about this sometimes and wonder just what kind of a miracle worker Rasputin could have been had he indeed been a properly ordained and truly believing priest.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: ChristineM on June 19, 2007, 12:43:01 PM
Father (now Saint) John of Kronstadt was the Imperial Family's confessor.   He was brought from St Petersburg to Livadia to be with Alexander III as he approached his death - and to comfort the family.   

Father John died in 1908 aged 79.   I am trying to remember the name of any other priest specially singled by the family who received the trust and devotion and respect in which Father John of Kronstadt was held.   Perhaps someone will know.

tsaria
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 19, 2007, 01:55:24 PM
Perhaps Father Ioann Yanishev (1826-1910)?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 19, 2007, 01:56:23 PM
According to Spiridovitch it was Bishop Theophane (see my translation on pg 2 of this thread)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 19, 2007, 02:11:18 PM
Yes, Bishop Theophane was a priest who received the family's trust and devotion. Unfortuantely, he fell into disfavour.

Is it known what Father Yansihev thought of Rasputin?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on June 19, 2007, 03:17:02 PM
Didn't Theophane fall into "disfavor" because he came to know and understand the "real" Rasputin?  And tried to do something about Rasputin?

Even such highly respected and highly placed individuals were no match for Alix's devotion to Rasputin  :-\
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Helen on June 19, 2007, 04:01:22 PM
Yes, Bishop Theophane changed his mind about Rasputin, and his criticism didn't go down well.

Highly respected and highly placed as Bishop Theophane may have been, Alexandra was not the type of person to accept a priest's opinions automatically and unquestioningly just because someone was a priest, was respected by others or was highly placed. She had had deep discussions with Dr. Sell during her Darmstadt years and she was sufficiently well-read on theological issues to be able to corner a priest who had been asked to teach her certain aspects of the Orthodox faith in 1894. (And yes: Rasputin was not a priest, but Alexandra seems to have disagreed with him too at times.)
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: anna11 on December 04, 2007, 11:15:23 AM
Has anyone seen the History Channel's 'Most evil people in history' Rasputin episode? It's appaling. It does nothing to condradict, and even encourages the suggestion that Rasputin and Alexandra were lovers, and it says Alexandra's letters are full of statments that if they didn't do what Rasputin says Alexei would die, and also it makes it seem like Rasptuin spent every second day with the IF, it's totally dramatized and paints poor Alexandra in a very negative light, even for people who don't like her that much. Anyway, this topic just reminded me of that.

I think because Nicholas was away so much during the war, Rasputin's actual visits were less frequent, and mosy communication was done through other people, and telephone. Doesn't Alix say in one of her letters 'I should have liked to see our friend, only never ask him here when you are away as people are so nasty' or something like that?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 04, 2007, 12:58:55 PM
There are 2 types of "confessor". One is someone you confess your faith to,  the Apostles Creed, for instance.  You are affirming and reaasuring  your acceptance of the faith and tenets of the Church. This can be anyone.  The other type is someone you "confess" your sins to for forgiveness and pennance. Thsi is a sacrament admisitered only by an ordained priest.
 Alexandra, always being insecure in her faith, needed constant reassurance. Rasputin provided that for her, hence the first type of "confessor".
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Alixz on December 04, 2007, 06:46:25 PM
Robert,

Is the first type someone you "confess" your faith to or someone you "profess" your faith to.  Are we not professing our faith by reciting the Apostle's Creed (which I used to have memorized, but no can only remember part of)?

Maybe it is just semantics.  But I think you are right about Alexandra needing constant reassurance and a constant source from which to get that reassurance.  Because Rasputin never "judged" and only offered sympathy and advise, he differed greatly from a "priest" who would command authority and repentance.

And then there was that pesky fact that Rasputin did seem to be able to quiet Alexei and to slow the bleeding.  Rasputin never "healed" Alexei because there is no cure, but he did ease his pain and more importantly eased Alexandra's pain.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Georgiy on December 04, 2007, 08:44:06 PM
Robert is on the right track. To receive Communion, one has to have Confession of one's sins, with an Ordained Priest (as witness). She may well have had spiritual discourses and councels with Rasputin, but the Sacrament of Confession - no.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: matushka on February 02, 2008, 02:32:08 PM
About the confessors of the Imperial family, there are differents things to consider. There was at the Court the fonction of "Protopresbytr of the court". It was the priest who officialy celebrated at the Court and was officialy confessor of the IF. Bis 1910 it was father Ioann Yanishev, then a very old priest, totally inoffensive, Blagoveshchensky. Then father Kedrensky.  Then, in february 1914 came father Alexandre Vassiliev, teacher of the imperial children from 1910. All these men had official charge, but it does not mean (in the case of Blagoveshchensky and Kedrinsky) that they played the spiritual role of confessor for the IF. This spiritual role beetwen 1905 and 1911-12 played bishop Theopahne Bystrov, after saint John of Cronstadt. After his disgrace, as far as I understand NA and AF mostly confessed themselves to father Vassiliev and to the priest of the Feodorovsky sobor. I would not say that Rasputin was a "confessor" for AF. He was a saint man, she heard his spiritual advices, she believed him and knew he could save her son, but he was not her confessor in the sense of a priest who is directeur de conscience, as I had say in french and whom you confess your sins.

About Rasputin being present at Court's events, I read recently an article in the russian internet, about the Empress last journey in Novgorod (december 1916). And discover with stupefaction that Rasputin seems to have take part to this journey. The author of the article quote a text written by Islavin, governator of the Novgorod' province in those days: "With the emperial train came to Novgoord A. A. Vyrubova and G. E. Rasputin, but almost noone saw him in the town. The day before the hotel's owner Soloviev received a telegram. It was asked him to prepare the best room for the time of imperial train's arriving. At the moment the Empress came at the station, Rasputin went out of the train, sat in a izvotchik and went to this hotel where, as said the owner, he stayed on the bed, drank tee all the time, going nowhere else. A short time before the train departed, he came back to the train, nobody saw him. About the Rasputin's caming in Novgorod, nobody, even I (officially) was allowed to know." I only wonder why neither the Empress in her letter to NA, nore the GD in their diaries and letter said any word about Rasputin's presence in the train to Novgorod. Had anyone information?
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: matushka on February 02, 2008, 03:00:41 PM
How many times the IF met Rasputin, I asked this question myself and a long time ago, when I had no children and nothing to do, I check letters and diaries and search this question. Here are all the times the Nicolas II met Rasputin, or at least all the times he noticed the meeting in his diary for the years 1905-1907 and 1913-1916. Sorry, there are some notices in french.

-   1er novembre 1905
-   18 juin 1906
-   13 octobre 1906
-   9 décembre 1906
-   6 avril 1907
-   19 juin 1907

Visites de Raspoutine 1913-1916 (d’après le journal de Nicolas II)

-   18/01/1913
-   15/02/
-   15/04/
-   18 avril. Mentionné dans le journal de Tatiana
-   1/06
-   17/07 (soulage Al. N. malade)
-   6/08
-   23/9 (à Yalta)
-   5/10 Yalta
-   2/01/1914. Mentionné aussi dans le journal d’O. N. Reste jusqu’à 11 heures avec les parents puis visite les enfants.
-   20/01/
-   2/02/
-   18/02 (dans le chœur de l’église, début du Carême)
-   20/02 (après l’office)
-   14.03
-   18.05
-   17/06
-   25/08
-   5/09
-   14/09
-   19/09   
   28/09
-   7/10
-   17/10
-   4/11 (avant son départ)
-               25.12 (pas de mention dans le journal pour ce jour)
-   2/01/1915 au chevet d’A. A. V. accidentée
-   9/01 après visite à A. A. V.
-   20/01
-   7/02
-   27/02 (une demi-heure chez Ania)
-   22/03 (Pâques, courte visite)
-   1/04
-   27/04 (chez Ania)
-   4/05 (bénédiction avant le départ)
-   18/05 (est passé)
-   31/05
-   9/06
-   31/07 chez A.A.V
-   4/08 (dicute avec le tsar et le bénit avec une icône)
-   28/09 chez Ania
-   6/12 ; au chevet d’Al. N. malade
-   26/01/1916
-   24/02
-   23/04
-   26/11 chez Ania
-   2/12 (chez Ania, dernière discussion avec le tsar)
An other time, if only I can find it, I will do the same work for AF and OTMA in the war's time, in absence of NA. Hope it will help.
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on February 02, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
... About Rasputin being present at Court's events, I read recently an article in the russian internet, about the Empress last journey in Novgorod (december 1916). And discover with stupefaction that Rasputin seems to have take part to this journey. ...  he came back to the train, nobody saw him. About the Rasputin's caming in Novgorod, nobody, even I (officially) was allowed to know."... Had anyone information?

Obviously no one saw Rasputin in Novgorod because Rasputin was in Petrograd when Alexandra travelled to Novgorod. A letter she wrote to Nikolai II on December 12, 1916 describes who was in attendance with her on the day. Among the party were two Grand Dukes and her daughters.

Please read through this article with the link provided below, which explains a few the circumstances of that visit. The fact that Alexandra brought back a special icon to give to Rasputin at a later date, in commemoratiion of her visit confirms that the writer on the Russian internet site plucked out an obscure yarn, which falls short with the truth.

http://www.facesofrussia.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=1

Margarita
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: matushka on February 03, 2008, 04:50:13 PM
Yes, I read a lot about this journey and that was what I thougt. Perhaps Islavin, as all people at that time was so obsessed by Raspoutine that they saw him everywhere and heard any gossip?

I note most of the meetings of the Empress and OTMA with Grigory at war time without the Tsar. It is complete for 1916, I probably forgot something for 1915. Here is the list:
-   24/09 1914
-   28/09/1914 : O, T chez AAV
-   7/10
-   17/10
-   25/10 doma
-   30/10 doma
-   4/11 doma
-   25/12 doma

-   5/1/1915
-   16/1 doma
-   17/1 femme et fille Raspoutine doma
-   20/1 doma
-   29/01 journal d’ON : Grigoria Efimovitcha ubrali.
-   7/02 chez AAV puis soir doma
-   8/3 chez AAV
-   5/4/
-   27/8 chez AAV femme et fille
-   3/10
-   
-   23/04/1916 doma
-   29.04 у Ани
-   25/05/ chez AAV
-   11/06 chez AAV, avant le départ de GER pour Pokrovskoe
-   25/07 chez AAV
-   6/08 chez AAV
-   7/09
-   14/09 chez AAV
-   21/09 chez AAV avec sa femme et un moine
-   30/09 chez AAV
-   15/10 chez AAV
-   21/10 chez AAV (avec NA)
-   25/10 chez AAV avec filles GER
-   2/11 chez AAV
-   4/11
-   7/11
-   9/11
-   10/11 avant départ GER
-   2/12 chez AAV
-   5/12 chez AAV
-   9/12 chez AAV
-   10/12 chez AAV
-   12/12 chez AAV
Title: Re: Question: Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family?
Post by: Belochka on February 04, 2008, 06:38:47 PM
Yes, I read a lot about this journey and that was what I thougt. Perhaps Islavin, as all people at that time was so obsessed by Raspoutine that they saw him everywhere and heard any gossip?

People without a doubt enjoyed declaring that they saw Rasputin in one place or another just to be heard or to simply compromise Rasputin without justification. Their discredit begins when those alleged sightings are proven wrong.

Margarita  
Title: First met with IF - when?
Post by: nena on September 27, 2008, 05:03:09 PM
When Rasputin first time met the Imperial Family?

Montenegrin princesses Militsa and Stana/Anastasia met him with Empress? Correct. And he came to St.Petersburg in 1909? But how these two princesses knew about him?

Where did they met him? And probably they(Militsa and Anastasia) told him about Aleksei's health, because his illness was discovered ca. 1912, when he got hemophilia attack in Spala.

I only know Tsarevich was terribly ill, then Rasputin came to his room, told him some storries, and boy felt better.

Tell me, when and where Rasputin met IF? I heard he saw Tsarina in 1903, but I doubt...

Thank you!
Title: Re: First met with IF - when?
Post by: Forum Admin on September 27, 2008, 06:26:37 PM
please use Search. This question has been asked and answered before.
Title: Re: First met with IF - when?
Post by: nena on September 27, 2008, 06:31:00 PM
I tried, but I have no idea what to put into Search...  :(

If anybody can answer quick, I will be very thanksgiving! ;)
Title: Re: First met with IF - when?
Post by: Sarushka on September 27, 2008, 07:32:41 PM
On this thread, reply #9 includes Nicholas's diary entry for the day he met Rasputin:

Rasputin and Nikolasha (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=3883.msg86823#msg86823)


Matushka has also compiled long lists of Rasputin's visits with the IF during various years near the end of this thread:

Just how often was Rasputin with the Imperial Family? (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=9643.0)
Title: Re: First met with IF - when?
Post by: nena on September 28, 2008, 05:32:28 AM
Ok--thank you very much!  ;)