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Messages - LadyTudorRose

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The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 21, 2011, 03:50:52 PM »
Is anything known about the PoW/King/DoWs drinking habits? His personality strikes me as hovering around the melancholy/depressive spectrum and possibly the type that would use alcohol to drown his sorrows. He seemed to escape getting hooked on cocaine-hooked on Wallis instead.

I've actually come to believe he was probably bipolar. He had a lot of the symptoms that are common from periods of depression, to changes in sleeping habits, and some other stuff.

The Sebba book is apparently very trashy. I have no intention of reading it, but have had trouble avoiding the various articles she's written promoting it. Most of her conclusions are totally unproven and she dredges up theories that were disproven by previous biographers and presents them as being likely.

Honestly, from what I've read David was more interesting when he was young and I think he got boring as he got bored with his life post-Abdication. He was very reluctant to admit that boredom because he didn't want to suggest he was unhappy with Wallis.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 19, 2011, 05:55:00 PM »
The new book by Hugo Vickers is supposed to be  quite good, but I have barely touched the surface and he is known to be  pro-Wallis. His other royal bios are generally very good as well.
I got it when it first came out. It was great in that it documented her final years and death and shined some light on a period that was shrouded in mystery. But in the shorter second half where he covers her earlier life it's a bit rushed, and I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, probably because he didn't have the space to elaborate. He's actually not as pro-Wallis as people think; he goes against the crazy stories like her being a Nazi but he doesn't paint her as being a nice, pleasant, or even honest human being. He's even harsher on David.

Basically it's the absolute best book out there if you only want to know about Wallis's later life, but far from the best if you want to read about her whole life.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 19, 2011, 04:48:05 PM »
I have a question about biographies.  Does anyone know what the best biography of Wallis would be?  I have read Greg King's book and I was disappointed in his somewhat biased lean toward Wallis and his use of her book The Heart Has Its Reasonsfor most of his sources.,

I would like to read a less favorably biased book.  One which presents both sides.

I have been checking on Amazon, but the authors are not ones that I am familiar with and I hope someone here can give me a clue.
The Woman He Loved by Ralph G. Martin is good. It doesn't buy into any of the silly rumors or stories yet presents both the good and bad sides very well. It's sympathetic but doesn't overlook anything.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 17, 2011, 08:11:13 AM »
The only evidence necessary was for them to be seen in bed together and I believe that it was often a business arrangement, the "couple" having not met previously.

It's generally believed the girl Ernest was with was Wallis's old friend Mary Kirk who he had apparently had an affair with, but it'll never be proven either way. Even at the time everyone figured it was a set-up. Wallis and David likely knew when/where it was going to happen in advance so they could easily get the "evidence" necessary for the divorce hearing.

Wallis was really freaked-out in the aftermath of the abdication that someone would come along and prove the divorce was illegal and she would be prevented from marrying David.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 13, 2011, 04:10:20 PM »
I think the Felipe Epsil episode in some ways forshadowed Wallis's involvement with David and explains a lot of her behavior. Though of course, Felipe Epsil wasn't a prince, he was very glamorous and successful and many women were after him. Circumstances made it very difficult for he and Wallis to marry, so he eventually dumped her and moved on to someone else pretty quickly. Wallis was apparently very much affected by that break-up, and thus was more guarded when she was first involved with David as she expected a similar outcome. I mean, Felipe Epsil may very well have "romanced" Wallis with gifts and melodramatic declaractions of eternal love just like David did. At least one of the bios of Wallis I read indicated that was probably the case.

I also think getting dumped by Felipe who was superficially handsome and charming may have encouraged Wallis to "settle" for the more dull Ernest Simpson who was much more reliable.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 12, 2011, 06:41:14 PM »
How does anyone know what really went on?  We cannot know what Wallis told Edward.  Even letters do not have to have anything to do with reality, they just may be written with an eye to people reading them some day.  I believe that Earnest Simpson acted like the gentleman he was.  He took Wallis' "friend" Buttercup Kennedy to an inn and committed adultery with her so that he could be the guilty party in Wallis' divorce.  He then faded into the background.  As far as the China dossier or any other dossier, there are things in the archives that will not be read in this century.  Some of the papers relating to the Duke of Coburg and the Duke of Windsor as well as Crawfie's memorabilia are off limits.  Given the kind of man King George V was, it is doubtful that he would not have had the "Simpson Woman" vetted very carefully indeed.  I believe that just as he had all David's relationships investigated he had this one looked into.  We will probably never know the truth in our lifetime.
So you think the letters, which were dated and often included correct addresses and postmarks, were all somehow faked because they would be read later? If she had done that then I think a lot of things, like the baby talk, and the bitchy comments about David's family, would not have been included. There were plenty of comments in the letters that do not put Wallis in a favorable light. Also, Wallis had originally asked for her letters to be destroyed (like the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret did with some of their private leters) but her lawyer had decided to publish them to make a quick buck.

Most everything relating to the abdication was released in 2003. I don't think anything would be held back about Wallis at this point. Also I think it would be a big coincedence if what really existed was similar to a rumor that emerged from nowhere and is not supported by any evidence. I'm sure Wallis was "looked into" but I'm also reasonably sure little about her life before she movied to Britain was found. This was pre-internet and researching events that happened involving a non-famous person in another country years before would be difficult.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 11, 2011, 08:53:33 PM »
Wallis sleeping with Edward was not only beneficial to her but also to Ernest himself. A wife taking one for the team and sleeping with a royal is not something new or an act that only Wallis took part in. In various books, there is an indication that Wallis assumed that David would eventually grow tired of her and he would find somebody new and she would be back alone with Ernest. Whether she started the sexual relationship with Edward out of boredom or she was urged on by her husband, either way Wallis did not set out to have a third husband.
But she didn't just sleep with David. She told him she loved him and indicated she wanted to be with him. I agree that her intention wasn't to marry him, or at least it wasn't to begin with. But this was a serious relationship she was entering, not just an occasional sexual encounter. They were together for two years before she divorced Ernest, and according to his staff she practically lived at Fort Belvedere. She went with him on every vacation he took, and wrote to him whenever they were apart for a few days.

Honestly, I don't think the sexual element bothered Ernest all that much. He got plenty of perks from being married to a royal mistress. But I think what pushed him into having his own affair and led to the eventual end to the marriage was when he began to feel that Wallis had feelings for David and was beginning to put his needs over Ernest's. If all that had been going on was sex, and Wallis had not told David she loved him, or agreed to travel with him and take over things at his houses, the two probably never would've ended up together and he would've moved on to someone else and Wallis's marriage would have remained intact.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 11, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »
No it has not.

As well as that, the British government said it has and surely it should know!  I will have to find out more details but this came after the release of previously classified government papers which were an investigation of these allegations against the Duchess many years ago.
The British government never said anything of that nature. The files from 2003 included some stories about Wallis's "reputation" and popular rumors of the time, but none about China. You're thinking of the supposed "China dossier" which was rumored to exist that included stories about Wallis in China compiled by the government, but almost certainly never existed.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 11, 2011, 03:26:50 PM »
No it has not.
Yes it has, pretty much every biographer of either Wallis or David have attested the supposed "dossier" never existed, and that there's no evidence to suggest Wallis learned any kind of sexual techniques (or even that she was having sex with anyone) while she was in China.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 09, 2011, 03:15:14 PM »
I do not think she was all that happy with Ernest. Those letters show very little about the relationship except that she cared for him in one way or another. I think she took up with the Prince because she was very starstruck and he charmed her into a relationship. If you want to defend Wallis that's one thing, but I can't stand people trying to paint David as some sort of creepo stalker because that's not fair at all. Wallis entered that relationship of her own free will, and she told him she loved him and wanted him in her life on more than one occasion in writing, so it's hard to argue about that. It's not like he picked some random woman to obsess over and trapped her into marrying him. Honestly, while I don't think Wallis would have otherwise divorced Ernest Simpson, I think they both would've ended up having affairs anyway and probably ended up leading seperate lives. I mean on more than one occasion when Wallis was given a choice she went off with David instead of Ernest, even making Ernest go to America by himself and visit her relatives alone so she could go on some trip with David and his friends. She told her Aunt Bessie specifically that her marriage to Ernest was dead and would be even if David was out of the picture. Her actions don't strike me at all as those of someone all that in love with her husband. Wallis did everything she could to avoid making an actual choice (because she was afraid of chosing wrong and missing out on something) but some where along the way when she told David she loved him and continued her relationship even after Ernest was bothered by it, she sealed her fate.

Wallis may have wasted a lot of time wondering what could've been, but I think she was happier married to David than she would've been if she'd gotten out when she still had the chance. She would have been one of those miserable old ladies who whines about the wonderful life that she could've had.

The Windsors / Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« on: October 03, 2011, 11:07:03 AM »
Apparently at least one of Win's later wives cited abuse as a reason for divorce. So he may have had some issues. Given all of the crap Wallis went through for that divorce (her uncle basically cut her off for it) I don't think she would have done it if Win hadn't been really difficult. Especially considering she had no idea what would be in store for her when she left him.

Having big hands she presumably had big feet as well (I do too - my latest trainers are 8s, which is ridiculous when you're a modest 5ft 6!). Is it a coincidence that few published photographs of her seem to show her feet?


Actually her feet were tiny, like most women of her era. I'm a big vintage person and the average show size has gone up about two or three sizes; most vintage shoes I find are fives or sixes. I believe Wallis was a five/six too; a pair of her shoes were auctioned off recently and they were tiny.

I have worked with many women who "acted" like the were going through menopause.  They turn bright red, they sweat (glow) and in general look very uncomfortable. They would turn up the air conditioning and turn down the heat at intervals all day long or turn up the heat and then turn down the air conditioning.  I myself went through the process and it took what seemed to be an age and I was very uncomfortable.

I know that many people would see my symptoms and ask me how I was feeling.  The extra heat that the body generates is enormous and can be felt by others who are near.

Night sweats are very common and while I would expect that Wallis wouldn't talk about that her staff would have known if she slept well or not.

I never said that having one's tube tied or having a hysterectomy would stop one from going through the physical effects of menopause.

But since Wallis was so very socially active and in public so much, I just thought that I had never seen her exhibiting any of the menopausal symptoms that I have seen on the women with whom I worked.

I'm sure she did, but why would anyone document that? People didn't chat about that stuff back then. Not to mention it might've happened in the Bahamas when she was sweating and acting sick all the time anyway.

Well, there was an obvious motive for Wallis to try to keep both men in the picture for as long as she possibly could. She wasn't psychic and had no way of knowing for certain David would stay in love with her for the rest of his life. I'm sure Wallis had heard from men in the past that they'd always love her when that wasn't really the case. I really do think she loved David more, but she'd rather go back to Ernest than die alone.

I'm sure that probably someone has already talked about Channel 4's recent documentary 'Wallis Simpson: The Secret Letters', the core hypothesis of which was that Wallis was trapped between a rock and hard place, and that her real love was always Ernest.  It also suggested that Ernest and Wallis were both chancers who enjoyed the kudos and benefits of her being maitresse-en-titre, but that both balked when the takes got high and David got serious, that it was Ernest who upset the applecart with his affair with Mary Kirk......

That there was an element of sadomasochism in WE's relationship, certainly on a psychological level, is a very interesting notion.  The programme suggested that the worse that she treated him, the greater his need for her, almost in direct proportion.

John Julius Norwich, whose parents Duff and Diana Cooper were contemporaries of the Windsors offered some very interesting insights with his experiences of being around them, not the least of which was his revelation that when he met Wallis and David in later life, he actually found her to be an exceptionally good hostess and good company, whilst David was simply a dull bore.
I saw that. I don't feel they backed up any of their assertions at all. Those letters didn't really document anything as to what she was feeling to either Ernest or David, and they certainly didn't back up any sexual speculation or anything. It was very similar to another documentary from a few years back by the same network called "The Queen Mother in Love" which also used letters to make various claims they really didn't support.

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