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Messages - DonaAntonia

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1
Just a minute...

I want to offer my compliments to Dona Antonia and Jose. Being so close to Portugal as I'm, I never thought about this very interesting issue. It's a pleasure to read your arguments. Both of you know how to argue!! I'm really interested in read more ;)

Thanks so much, Yseult! I also like discussions that are friendly and where we can learn someone else's point of view. I am not very militant on this matters, so I have only posted my knowledges on this over here. I do like this forum very much, because everybody has something to teach and everybody has something to learn. As there are people from all over the world, it is also a sort of beautiful utopia, that shows how we can be richer if we all listen to each other.

2
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 27, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »
Thanks Yseult, Agneschen and Veronica. It is indeed Maria Anna. The book that states it is Antonia has many such mistakes.
They had matching dresses, like the Russian Grand-Duchesses.
So maybe that is why people mistake them for one another, just like some postcards state Olga is Tatiana and vice-versa.
But if you look closely, Antonia looks more like their father and Maria Ana looks more like their mother. The 2 Braganza girls are, indeed, physically very different.

What book are you referring to ?
You've been posting lots of great photos from Infanta D.Antonia (as well as from D.Maria Anna) that I have never seen before

Hi Yseult!
The book where some of Maria Anna's photos were published as Antonia's is called «Familia Real - Album de fotografias», by Nobre.

The photos I have been posting are mainly from my own collection, so they were never published before.
Some of Princess Antonia'a photos were however published in the album collection «Lisboa Desaparecida» (Lost Lisbon), volumes 7 and 8, by Dias.
Both books can be googled to see where you can order them from.

3
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 26, 2009, 05:39:30 PM »
Thanks Yseult, Agneschen and Veronica. It is indeed Maria Anna. The book that states it is Antonia has many such mistakes.
They had matching dresses, like the Russian Grand-Duchesses.
So maybe that is why people mistake them for one another, just like some postcards state Olga is Tatiana and vice-versa.
But if you look closely, Antonia looks more like their father and Maria Ana looks more like their mother. The 2 Braganza girls are, indeed, physically very different.

4
Hi José!
Nice to be back to our conversation.

Yes, I have seen the canonization of our own Saint Nuno of Saint Mary (Alvares Pereira). I haven't seen Duarte Pio of Bragança but that only makes his presence more interesting, if he was there just like any other person and not only to be seen by the media. I have also followed the link Amelio left us. But I do not agree with trying to diminish this canonization. It is good for Portugal to have one of its good children recognized as such internationally. And it is a good thing that a religion, be it whatever religion, recognizes a person who lived turbulent days and decided, in face of it all, to renounce his wealth and give it all away. These examples, like the one of Saint (Grand-Duchess) Ella of Russia are very needed nowadays when we face the problems of a society where people just want to get famous and rich and dress smart and have cars and houses and forget about everyone else.

Well, about Democracy and today's standards. It is obvious no person who has political ambitions (wether they are as a pretendant or anything else) would dare nowadays to say he or she is against Democracy. We are inside the European Union, the European Monarchies that still exist are democratic and the dictatorship days are gone. Duarte Nuno was living a time when dictatorships were «fashionable», «politically correct», and so it was okay for him to be friendly towards them like he was to Salazar. After all, it was Salazar who allowed him to come to Portugal. And why did the dictator do so: because in Duarte Nuno he had a kind of pretender who would never put the dictatorship at risk.

Duarte Pio, his son does not seem to be very interested in Democracy «per se». He just admits that, if Portugal would ever have a King in the future, that king would have to rule with a Parliament, just like anywhere else in Europe nowadays. But, to be true, I have never heard him say anything particularly modern, ranging from bullfights to family laws. And he is always making statements taking one of the sides (the conservative one) about important issues that divide the Portuguese. No head of State ever does that.

This would matter a lot if he could indeed be considered a pretender to the throne and not just a pretender to pretender.
Let's see:
King Pedro IV did abdicate from the Portuguese throne to be Emperor of Brazil. But he had children already. So he had to abdicate in favour of them. His brother could never be the king, thus . And King Pedro IV did the right thing giving Brazil its independence. As it is widely agreed upon nowadays, he was ahead of his time in this. If he hadn't done so that early in the 19th century, Brazil would probably had split into various nations like the rest of Latin America (the Spanish part of it) did. If only Salazar had the same wide views more than 100 years later, we would had been spared the shameful conditions in which the former Portuguese African colonies were left in 1975, with people there killing each other and the European being robbed of everything they had.

I also do not agree Queen Maria II «lacked almost every inch of political instinct». She was a queen by seven and a ruling one by 15. She was prepared like few other people at those ages. Being a child Queen and ruling for the first time in Democracy was not easy for her, with all the newly  politicians and their own ambitions. In fact, she had an enormous task and performed it very strongly and gracefully. And while she was feeding the new Constitutional habits she was also always feeding new babies, becoming pregnant and educating her children herself, teaching them all to read and write, etc. It is no wonder she died while being a mother once again and is quoted as having said «I die doing my job!» An amazing human being, a cultivated person and an excellent mother and educator. Her children's generation was compared, by the newspapers of the 19th century, to that of Queen Filipa's: «an enlightened generation». If you think Queen Maria's best decisions were in fact influenced by her husband, please read their letters. When D. Fernando arrives here it is her who almost orders him to command the Portuguese troops and go and meet the Count of Tomar, and he is appalled with that. Much later on, she still writes Saldanha asking him to convince her husband to go and stroll at the public garden because it was good for people to see their Royal family there. These are just 2 of many stories. She has been so underrated!

It is thus very unfair that people pretend she left no legacy. She has surviving descendants and they do have rights taking precedent over her uncle's descendants, even if these had never been banned. Because her heirs are from a more recent generation and the Portuguese law always allowed women in the line of succession when there are no male heirs in the same generaton. You would never have to go to the preceding generations, not even on the 18th century.

As for King Pedro V he was our best king of the 19th century, educated by Queen Maria to be so.  I did, of course, read his letters, both on the Ruben Andresen Leitão's 2 books and in person. What strikes me most is how precocious this young man was. A natural born prince, one would say, if we didn't know how much study was going on that house. King Pedro believed firmly in the Constitution he had sworn upon. That he did not trust the politicians of the time is only one more thing in his favour, I think, as these were very seldom serving the Constitution and the people's rights, but rather trying to make a career out of it. Pedro V took upon himself the huge task of moralizing a country used to favours amongst the politicians and to demoralization within the lower classes. He visited everyone alike and even stayed in Lisbon when every single aristocrat left because of the yellow fever.

As for King Carlos, he also was a strong Constitutional king. The fact that he gave João Franco full power to straighten things in 1907 does not erase all the other years during which he wisely ruled. With the country on the verge of insurrection there was no other apparent solution. And please let me remind you that this «king-based government» can hardly be considered a dictatorship (though João Franco my have thought it was). General elections were marked for July 1908. Unfortunately the King was killed before that.

So in the name of all these good heads of State, how could we Portuguese ever accept the Miguelists back?



5
Iberian Royal Families / Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:48:17 PM »
Here is Maria Anna amongst her family, from a photo montage I have scanned from a book on King Carlos. From top to bottom:

King Fernando and Queen Maria II (her parents), Queen Maria Pia, baby Carlos and King Luis, Prince Joao, King Pedro V and Queen Stephanie followed by Prince Fernando (all dead between 1859 and 1861). Bottom: Antonia, Maria Anna and Augusto.


6
They are beautiful, Sarushka!
I was so surprised when I saw some of the Fabergé treasures over here in Portugal! I had not imagined the perfection of his miniature crowns (made for the 1900 Paris Exhibition) and was fascinated that he could also create something as simple as a photo frame and make it look Fabergé all the same.

7
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:19:46 PM »

larger version:



Great, Marie-of-Romania! I had never ever seen this portrait! Thanks so much for sharing.
A bit naive, but very interesting. It is not exactly Antonia, but we can figure out it is her, somehow. She does look like both Kings Fernandos (her father and her son). Is this picture in a Romanian palace?

8
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:15:04 PM »


Yes, he was unfaithful once after long abstinence and begged for forgiveness and never did it again. You must place yourself in those days: no contraception and what could you do after being told by the doctor you could not risk to have babies?

And Antonia did write nice letters to Maria Pia. She was a lady. Those letters were robbed from the Royal archives sometime between 1928 and 2000. But I assume they were very friendly. Maria Pia was all that was left for Antonia from her old days. Antonia was lost after Luis died. She just slowly faded away.

I understand! I place myself easily in those days. It must have been very hard for both Leopold and Antonia. And I think I understand also the bond between Antonia and the widow of her beloved brother Luiz. I believe Antonia was almost dying from "saudade"...saudade about her country but also about the "old times", when her father and brothers were alive...
[/quote]

Hi Yseult!
Yes, it is all very sad about Antonia and her saudade for Portugal. Being married to Leopold meant having to leave, and staying would had meant having to part from him. So she chose to marry him but, being 16, never realized how bitter her exile would be. «I have suffer from a kind of ice some Germans have in their hearts» she once wrote. And gradually Antonia the teaser, the «funny sister», the joke-maker became Antonia the lonely isolated lady of later years.
We have a fado song here in Portugal that says «We all have 2 rivers that cross inside our chest». Some people's rivers run deeper and wilder and with no return...

9
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:08:16 PM »

 Her father's new bride was mocked in Lisbon as a minor Opera singer whose photos in shorts and tights were for sale at the local photographic houses.


I don't want to go off topic here, but I read this and remembered I had a photograph of Elise Hensler in tights.
In 1860, she played the part of "Oscar", a masculine character in the opera "Un ballo", in the city of Porto.
I understand why princess Antonia didn't like her, it was a natural feeling. She was not an "equal", and plus she was wearing her mother things...



Yes, Veronica, That's the photo I was talking about. Thanks for posting. It was all over town when King Ferdinand's crush on Elise was made known. One thing we must credit Antonia's father for: once he assumed his love for Elise he was ready to defend it come what may. He quarrelled with his son King Luis to have her sit amongst royals at the banquets and never accepted to be invited without her.
Antonia told Luis: «If I had not accepted to have her here, Daddy would not had come!» (to Sigmaringen)

10
I am happy to be of assistance, "DonaAntonia" !  May I say that I have visited your beautiful country (including Lisbon) several times and hope to return!  Best regards,  AP

Thanks again, Aleksandr Pavlovich! I wish I could also say I have visited your country (I assume it is Russia), but still have not done so, unfortunately (I think I should put a crying «smiley» here).
Anyway, if I can be of assistance too, I'll be more than glad to give you some guiding lines when you visit Portugal, just in case you still need them.

11
José,
Once again I would like to be clear about one thing: I have nothing against you or any Miguelist supporter personally.
I think you are an intelligent poster here and you genuinely believe the Absolutist branch descendants are the best for our country.
The only thing I have against it is that I believe they are, in fact, the worse for our country.
I believe in the legacy of King Carlos, King Pedro V and Queen Maria II and cannot accept that someone so distant from Democracy and from them (both genealogically and politically) can ever be called Duke of Braganza.
Once again, this has nothing to do with you or me. It has to do with wishing the best for my country. If Duarte Nuno and his brothers had been as intelligent and dignifying as you yourself (and some other of their supporters) seem to be, maybe I would change my point of view.

12
Iberian Royal Families / Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
« on: April 25, 2009, 09:29:27 PM »
First of all:

You've said that D.Miguel had to renounce in favour of D.Duarte Nuno because of the Saxony incident.
Which was never prooved as Wikipedia recognizes.
The Saxony incident happened in 1900, and D.Duarte Nuno was born in 1907.

As to D.Francisco, all I read about his eventual homossexuality was in Wikipedia.
Which press mentioned the incident ? Why on earth would he be in London for Edward VII's coronation as the obvious invited would be his Bragança-Saxe-Coburg cousins ?
If he really was homossexual, despite the scandal that fact ment in the early 20th century, that was not cause for his being outranked from the succession line.  -  Read the commentaries from the Legitimists about him, further down.
Many kings and princes were homossexual: Ludwig II of Bavaria comes to mind. As well as Ferdinand of Bulgaria.
Kaiser Willelm II was very near those "circles", The duke of Clarence, and so many other minor royals.
At the time there was not such gutter-press as today where a homossexual king or crown prince would be crucified despite that comes into the "political incorrectness".

From Malcolm Howe "The Braganza Story"
" Prince Francisco José fought with the Austrian troops and died in 1919 from pneumonia (I guess that soon enough Wikipedia will say it was from AIDS) on the isle of Ischia, near Naples, whilst still a prisonner of war, captured by the Italians"

(Wonder if the Duke of Porto, living also in Naples, ever met his prisonner cousin)

"He, of all the descendants of D.Miguel I, most resembled his grand-father, the King, in his physicall appearance and had also inherited the musical talents of the Braganzas.
His mother had died when he was two years old, and he was brought up by his aunt Infanta D. Maria Anna, before his father married again.
When in 1893 she married the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, Francisco José, at the age of 13, composed the nuptial march for the wedding.
The family always called by the portuguese diminutive of his name "Chico".
He was the joy of their home and became an indefatigable traveller.
His communicative kindness and effusive happiness made the Legitimists regard him as the most esteemed of their Princes, with all the qualities and defects of the Portuguese race.
He supposrted his brother at his wedding in 1909 and they were together in Galizia offering their swords to Paiva Couceiro to fight in both the 1911 and 1912 incursions."

D.Franscisco was also a bullfights aficionado and he was himself a bullfighter.



Maybe you think I have googled the Absolutist Braganzas to find the skeletons they hide inside the closet. But in fact I do not need to. I have not seen anything about Franz of Braganza in Wikipedia.

I don't doubt he liked bullfights, since his father and grandfather both did enjoy them beyond anything else. About the rest, I think you can just read the newspapers of the period. I am not at all shocked Franz (or anybody, for  that matter) was homossexual. He was entitled to. But since you genuinely think I made it up or saw it in Wikipedia, I'll also tell you that, by today's standards, he was not a homossexual (nothing wrong with that) but a pedophile. He was always caught with teenage boys.

If you still do not believe me, please read the Royalist António Feijó.
His letters to Luis de Magalhães are published (by Imprensa Nacional, 2004).
In the letter dated February 1912 (page 413, volume 2), he wrote:

(as we are off topic here, I think it is better to go on on the «Who is indeed the person who can be called Duke of Braganza» thread. I'll post the translated letter in there. My excuses to readers of this topic: you'll just have to browse the last page of the next thread).


13
(About the Absolutist subbranch and the eldest brothers of Duarte Nuno.)

I answer this topic here, as I think it goes beyond the Princess Maria Anna of Portugal thread.

Maybe you think I have googled the Absolutist Braganzas to find the skeletons they hide inside the closet. But in fact I do not need to. I have not seen anything about Franz of Braganza in Wikipedia.

I don't doubt he liked bullfights, since his father and grandfather both did enjoy them beyond anything else. About the rest, I think you can just read the newspapers of the period. I am not at all shocked Franz (or anybody, for  that matter) was homossexual. He was entitled to. But since you genuinely think I made it up or saw it in Wikipedia, I'll also tell you that, by today's standards, he was not a homossexual (nothing wrong with that) but a pedophile. He was always caught with teenage boys.

If you still do not believe me, please read the Royalist António Feijó.
His letters to Luis de Magalhães are published (by Imprensa Nacional, 2004).
In the letter dated February 1912 (page 413, volume 2), he wrote:

«In the last years of Monarchy the Miguelist party was dead and gone. The newspaper «A Nação» was already published only once a week, I'm small format, and their members were either dead or inside the Constitution, just like my relative of the «Casas Queimadas» whom (João] Franco made Count of the Paço de Victorino. (...) That prince (Miguel called the second) does not benefit in Vienna not even from the lightest of sympathies. A gambler, «panier percé», full of debts, with all the vices of the young aristocrats of the Austrian court, you can't recommend him under any circumstances whatsoever. The Countess of Colotra, née Princess of Thurn and Taxis and first cousin of Miguel's first wife told me horrid things about him. Her family was dramatically against their marriage but could not avoid it since he was very handsome and she was in love like any other girl. Afterwards, it was her hell. His father in law had to pay his debts various times, until he stopped talking to him altogether.
His 2 elder sons are going the same scandalous way. The older one married an American woman because he thought she was rich and afterwards she was not; shortly after marriage he was almost arrested in Berlin because of their debts and a dirty business that was near the «escroquerie».
The younger one, Francisco, who was in the troops of Couceiro, was arrested in London during King Edward VII 's coronation, when surprised by a police raid while he was practicing his queer habits («nas funções de invertido»)»

So, you see, even the Royalists of the period knew but too well who these Absolutist Braganzas were. In fact, no other words by me are necessary.



14
The Hohenzollern / Re: House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:17:04 PM »
. Leopold was very sweet to Antonia and that I know of, only once, when the doctors told her she could not risk having more children, did he try something very brief out of their marriage. Antonia was not young anymore but she reacted in a way that made Leopold ask for her forgiveness right away.

Please...what do you mean? Maybe Leopold was unfaithful to Antonia...?
Another point...I supposed Antonia has been in good terms with Maria Pia. Once I read after king Luiz death Antonia wrotte a great number of lovely letters to Maria Pia, her brother´s widow...

Yes, he was unfaithful once after long abstinence and begged for forgiveness and never did it again. You must place yourself in those days: no contraception and what could you do after being told by the doctor you could not risk to have babies?

And Antonia did write nice letters to Maria Pia. She was a lady. Those letters were robbed from the Royal archives sometime between 1928 and 2000. But I assume they were very friendly. Maria Pia was all that was left for Antonia from her old days. Antonia was lost after Luis died. She just slowly faded away.

15
Nicholas II / Re: portraits (paintings) of Nikolai II Aleksandrovich
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:09:28 PM »
Yes, Helen, but could it had survived and brought back to St. Petersburg? Mystery to me...

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