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Topics - Arianwen

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The Tudors / Marguerite d'Anjou
« on: September 08, 2005, 09:58:37 AM »
So, as promised, the new thread...

'Here's a topic. Marguerite d'Anjou. Discuss among yourselves.' ;)

Basic Facts:

- Born 23 March 1429 in Lorraine, daughter of Duc René d'Anjou and Isabelle de Lorraine (her father was the Duc de Lorraine)

- Married to Henry VI of England on 23 April 1445 at Titchfield Abbey, amid great opposition, and crowned on 30 May 1445 at Westminster Abbey

- Son Edward born 13 October 1453. When Edward was born, Henry declared he must be the son of the Holy Spirit. During most of Marguerite's pregnancy, Henry had fallen into fits of madness like his grandfather, Charles VI of France. Rumours began that the Duke of Somerset or the Duke of Suffolk was the actual father of little Edward.

- When war broke out between York and Lancaster, Marguerite showed herself an admirable general, willing to take incredible risks, but promised plunder in lieu of pay to her troops, who caused a trail of devastation thirty miles wide. England had cause to hate her and her army for decades to come. Whe Edward IV won Mortimer's Cross and Towton in 1461, entering London and being crowned (Henry VI had been catpured at this point), Marguerite fled with her son to France. In 1470, she was reconciled with the Earl of Warwick, the 'Kingmaker', who had turned on his cousin, Edward IV, and Warwick's younger daughter, Anne, was married to Marguerite's Edward. At Barnet and at Tewkesbury, Lancaster was finally defeated, and after Tewkesbury, George of Clarence's men caught up with the fleeing Edward of Lancaster and killed him. He was seventeen.

- Marguerite was captured by Edward IV's men, but not mistreated, and eventually ransomed to Louis XI of France, who made himself heir of her estate. She was returned to her father's lands in Anjou, where she died in exile and relative poverty on 25 August 1482. She was fifty-three.

I'll admit, my opinion of her is a bit on the acidic side, but I can also step back and say, 'Yes, I understand that. All right, I can give her that one.' I have a great deal of respect for her while not really liking her


The Tudors / Anne Boleyn's Birth Year
« on: August 14, 2005, 01:19:17 PM »
What year was Anne going to marry Henry Percy? Because, if she was born in 1501 and was going to marry in, say, the mid 1520s, this would mean she was about 24-27 - quite old to be getting married in those days.

Harry Percy was married off to Mary Talbot in 1523 or 1524. Anne made her first court appearance at the beginning of March, 1522. While twenty-one wouldn't have been obscenely late for making her court début, I agree that for her to be unmarried or even unbetrothed at that point is stretching the imagination more than a bit. 1503 is really the earliest in my mind that she could have been born, especially since Mary and George were supposed to be older than Anne, and there's a seven year window for the three children to have been born, between 1500 and 1507. 1507 seems too young, but 1501 seems equally too old.


The Tudors / Re: Isabella of Valois
« on: July 18, 2005, 10:01:03 PM »
Just off the top of my head, she was the older sister of Katherine, who eventually married Henry V and Owen Tudor, and she married Richard days before her seventh birthday in 1396, and it's reasonably supposed the marriage was never consummated, given Richard's grief for Anne and the fact that Isabelle was only ten at the time of Richard's arrest and murder. It wasn't until a few years later that Isabelle was sent back to France, after talks of marrying her to Henry V (she utterly refused, having been devoted to her late husband). In 1406, she married Charles d'Orléans, her first cousin. Charles' father was Louis, Duc d'Orléans, brother of Charles VI and lover of Queen Isabeau, Isabelle's mother. Louis was assassinated in because he was thought to have too much influence over the queen, who was really ruling France with him while the king was in his periods of insanity.

Charles seems to have been madly in love with his young wife, who died in childbirth with her first child in 1409, at the age of nineteen. The child, a daughter, Jeanne, survived and married. After Isabelle's death, however, Charles re-married twice, once soon after, and again in 1462, when his first son was born with Anna von Cleves, the future Louis XII.

Confusing enough? ;)


The Tudors / The Woodville Clan
« on: July 17, 2005, 09:23:01 PM »
So, to try to keep track of this huge family...

Sir Richard Woodville was born around 1406. His wife, Jacquetta de St Pol of Luxembourg, was born around 1415 and the widow of John, Duke of Bedford, brother to Henry V. Jacquetta and John were married just over two years, and sources are divided as to whether the union was childless or produced a son, Richard, and a daughter, Mary. Mary died around 1458 and married Peter of Montferrat, while Richard was likely stillborn or died in infancy.

With her husband's death in mid-September 1435, Jacquetta had married Richard, the son of her late husband's chamberlain before the end of the year. They had sixteen children:

Elizabeth (1437-1492) - married 1st Sir John Grey, had two sons, Richard and Thomas; married 2nd Edward IV, had ten children, including the Princes in the Tower and Elizabeth of York

Anne (1438-1489) - married 1st Lord William Bourchier and had three children; married 2nd Sir Edward Wingfield; married 3rd George Grey, Earl of Kent, had one son

Margaret (1439-1490) - married Thomas Maltravers, Earl of Arundel, issue unknown

Anthony (1441-1483) - Earl Rivers, married Elizabeth Scales, daughter Mary FitzLewes (unknown if this daughter is legitimate or not, if FitzLewes is a married name), executed in 1483

Mary (1443-before 1481) - married William Herbert, Earl of Huntington, issue unknown

Jacquetta (1444-1509) - married John, Baron Strange, had one daughter

John (1445-1469) - married Katherine Neville, Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, no issue as the bride was somewhere between sixty and eighty, executed with his father at Kenilworth under the orders of the Earl of Warwick

Lionel (1446- 1484) - Bishop of Salisbury

Edward (1455-1488) - killed on an expedition to Brittany against France, spouse and/or issue unknown

Catherine (1456-1513) - married 1st Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham, had five children; married 2nd Jasper Tudor, no issue; married 3rd Sir Richard Wingfield

Richard (?-1491) - became Earl Rivers upon the death of Anthony, spouse and/or issue unknown (no issue believed as title died out with Richard)

Thomas (?-?) - married Anne Holland, issue unknown

John (?-?) -most likely first son named John, died young

Louis/Lewis (?-?) - died young

Martha (?-?) - married Sir John Bromley, issue unknown

Eleanor (?-?) - married Anthony Grey, Baron de Ruthin

Jacquetta died in 1472, three years after her husband and son were executed by the Earl of Warwick.

If anyone finds more information, like the dates/children I'm missing, let me know.


The Tudors / Books/Movies on the Tudors and Plantagenets
« on: July 17, 2005, 04:10:09 PM »
Hey, everyone, how about we move those books/movies lists over here? Organise it a bit...:)


As Val and I have been exchanging messages about this and thought it might make a good thread, here it is...

I've always thought Alix most like her mother of all the girls, even more than Ella at times, and yet, as the youngest and only six when her mother died, I found that unusual. One would think Victoria or Ella would have been most like Alice, but I see more of her in Alix. I know they were raised with the ghost of their mother, thanks in no small part to Queen Victoria's obsession with death, but for the one who knew her mother least to be the most like her has always struck me as odd. Also, the irony that they share a name as well as many personality traits...

What do you all think?


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