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Messages - Horock

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1
The Final Chapter / Re: People Being 'Horrified' by OTMAA's Murders?
« on: July 12, 2018, 08:38:12 AM »
I have no idea of how things stood in France and Germany.
 
In Britain, the Communist Party of Great Britain did not contest a General Election until 1922 when it gained 30,684 out of 13,748,300 votes cast (about 0.22%).  How much the murder of the Romanovs influenced peoples' voting intentions is perhaps anybody's guess.  I would doubt if it had any in effect at all but who knows?

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The Final Chapter / Re: People Being 'Horrified' by OTMAA's Murders?
« on: July 02, 2018, 03:54:07 PM »
If individuals in Britain, France and Germany were asked in 1918 something like 'Do you think that the murder of the Romanovs was a terrible crime?', then probably 99 out of 100 would have answered yes.

But how much the murders affected people when they read about them in newspapers at that time is another matter.
Britain with about 18 million households took approaching 2.7 to 3 million casualties during the war.
France with about 16 million households took 6 million casualties during the war.

Given the scale of suffering it hard to think that the murder of the Romanovs had a major effect on people in the major combatant nations.

Perhaps public reaction was different in countries like the USA that were comparatively unaffected by the war.
Who knows?

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The Final Chapter / Re: People Being 'Horrified' by OTMAA's Murders?
« on: June 19, 2018, 11:58:22 AM »
In Britain we were losing over 300 people per week. In France it was twice that number.
How much would the death of the Romanov children would affected the population as a whole?

My gradparents went right through the First World War.  They never mentioned it to me. 

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Doubtless whatever went wrong was the the fault of King George V.

5
Is there a contemporary document that shows that George V urged the government to accept the Russian government's request for the Romanovs' to be able to live in Britain before the government decided to agree to that request?


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Its surprising that no one has mentioned what happened what happened to the secret fund.  It was used to pay for the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 and later for the murders of Elvis Presley and Princess Di.

7
Right. We have already established that George V did not act unconstitutionally, that he did not block any government decision and that the matter of whether he panicked is purely a matter of opinion.

I do not know how things worked in Spain in 1917 (or how it works with the monarchy in post Franco Spain), but in Great Britain in 1917, as now, the monarch cannot overturn any lawful government decision and the monarch has to approve what the government decides to do. Were the monarch to defy the elected government then that government of the day would resign and the opposition would refuse to form a new government. 

The Monarchy gets the Civil List, Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle and so but as far as the normal business of government is concerned, the monarchy is utterly powerless. Who knows, perhaps that is why anyone can read the Court Circular to find out what the Queen is doing but has to look on the Alexander Palace Time Machine to find out about what the Tsar was doing. If non Britons on here have romantic visions of the monarch then or now deciding this or that on behalf of the country then sorry, that did not, and does not happen.

The only aspect of the episode regarding the former Tsar's possible exile in Britain that made it in any way different to normal government business was that the Romanovs were related to the King – hence the exchanges of correspondence and the meetings.

As far as the King was concerned, he seems to have had reservations about the Tsar coming to Britain but accepted the decision of the government.  The following, copied from previous posts should about cover things:
'17 March 1917: Lord Stamfordham, the King's secretary, wrote to Balfour, Secretary of State for Foreing Affairs, expressing the King's misgivings about the Russian Imperial Family arriving in Britain. '
'21 March 1917:"As His Majesty's Ministers are still anxious that the King should adhere to the original invitation sent on their advice His Majesty must regard the matter as settled” '.

As far as the government of the day was concerned, I can only guess that of its 10 most pressing matters at that time, the fate of the former Tsar was about number 25.

I thought this thread was bad until I looked at a thread on this forum regarding the lunatic idea that George V was bribed.

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I cannot see how anyone can use terms like ‘bunch as many problems’ and ‘strategy’ in describing correspondence of nearly 100 years ago and then state unqualified conclusions that are really conjecture.

What is clear is that the Kings views were made known to the government in a series of notes and letters.  People on this forum have noted many possible problems that might have been encountered in allowing the Romanovs to come to Britain.  No one knows if the government and the monarch had taken account of any or all of these problems in reaching their decisions but given what is known of the circumstances at that time but in my opinion the King was right express the views that he did.  For me he put the interests of the monarchy and the country first (the two things were partly caught up with each other) and in doing so he acted correctly.

When was the deal done with the enemy regarding the Romanovs' travel arrangements?  An offer of safe passage was made by the enemy which was passed on to the Russian government by a Danish politician. For a deal to be done, the British government had to agree as well.  Is this documented?  Risking British lives to transport vital military equipment to an ally was different to risking British lives to transport the King’s foreign relatives.  



"Conjectures" is the business of historians, because usually kings, statesmen, dictators, revolutionaries.... don't keep a diary where they explain the reasons behind every decision they take. These "conjectures" can be valid guess or wild speculations, depending on how they fit with the information available.

An example of wild speculation: Nicholas II, who looked like George V's twin brother, wanted to replace him as the King of Great Britain and have him imprisoned in a dungeon, as in Anthony Hope's "The Prisoner of Zenda". There's nothing to support it. In fact, it is something that I have just made up.

An example of valid guess: George V panicked. That's the conclusion a historian, Helen Rappaport, reaches in her book Ekaterinburg. Why? She analyses the information available:

1. 9 March 1917: The British government gave their agreement to the Russian provisional government's proposal to offer asylum in Britain to the Russian Imperial Family.

2. 17 March 1917: Lord Stamfordham, the King's secretary, wrote to Balfour, Secretary of State for Foreing Affairs, expressing the King's misgivings about the Russian Imperial Family arriving in Britain.

3. 20 March 1917: Balfour replied that they cannot go back on their word. The deal is done and cannot be reversed.

4. 21 March 1917: Stamfordham sent Balfour a letter giving the King final assent: "As His Majesty's Ministers are still anxious that the King should adhere to the original invitation sent on their advice His Majesty must regards the matter as settled."

5. 24 March 1917: Stamfordham, following the King's order, started a campaign (2 letters that day, meetings with Lloyd George and Balfour) to stop the arrival of the Russian Imperial Family to Britain, after giving his agreement to it twice: 9 March and 21 March.

How to explain that complete volte-face? Why would George V go back on his word given TWICE? The most logical explanation, one that fits with all the information we have, is that he panicked.

Of course, you would not believe it, unless we can present an entry is George V's diary stating literally: "I panicked". Well, in 99,9% of the cases historians lack that kind of evidence. If you think that any conclusion that is not based in that kind of evidence is not valid, forget about history (and journalism, and politics).

And now, why should you keep posting about mines, submarines and deals with Germany, if you have already reached the conclusion that George V's decision was right?
If what George V did was the right thing to do, why should you look for excuses?

George V had already succeeded in having the Government reject the request that they had initiallt granted: Nicholas II and his family would not come to Britain. The door was closed, the drawbridge was raised for them. What does it matter how many mines or how many German submarines were between Russia and Britain, if the Russian Imperial Family would not be allowed to travel there? We might as well discuss the possibility of them settling in the Moon.

The ‘Prisoner of Zenda’ about sums this up.

The government gives its approval to a request for the Romanovs to be allowed to reside in Great Britain.  As far as I can see this was an approval in principal. If any of the practical details of the matter- the journey and the living arrangements in Britain had been worked out and documented, where are those details?

Eight days later, the King informed the government of his misgivings regarding this matter.  I cannot see a ‘volte-face’ here.

Four days later, acting constitutionally (not unconstitutionally as previously claimed on this forum) the king gives the royal assent to the government’s decision. As he had to give that assent I cannot see a ‘volte-face’ here.

Over the next four days the King continues to express his misgivings regarding the matter of the Romanovs coming to Britain, having fulfilled his constitutional duty in approving this matter. I cannot see a ‘volte-face’ here. I cannot see how by continuing to express his misgivings, the King can be said to have a ‘panicked’.
 
Where in this series of events has King George V gone back on his word?

Speculation regarding the possible political problems that might have been caused by the Romanovs living in Britain is reasonable, as is speculation regarding the dangers involved in their journey and the political consequences that might have ensued had something gone wrong during that journey.

How ridiculous can this get?  An opinion is expressed regarding the King’s conduct, reasons are given for forming that opinion and these are described as ‘excuses’.


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I cannot see how anyone can use terms like ‘bunch as many problems’ and ‘strategy’ in describing correspondence of nearly 100 years ago and then state unqualified conclusions that are really conjecture.

What is clear is that the Kings views were made known to the government in a series of notes and letters.  People on this forum have noted many possible problems that might have been encountered in allowing the Romanovs to come to Britain.  No one knows if the government and the monarch had taken account of any or all of these problems in reaching their decisions but given what is known of the circumstances at that time but in my opinion the King was right express the views that he did.  For me he put the interests of the monarchy and the country first (the two things were partly caught up with each other) and in doing so he acted correctly.

When was the deal done with the enemy regarding the Romanovs' travel arrangements?  An offer of safe passage was made by the enemy which was passed on to the Russian government by a Danish politician. For a deal to be done, the British government had to agree as well.  Is this documented?  Risking British lives to transport vital military equipment to an ally was different to risking British lives to transport the King’s foreign relatives. 


10
Using bold type to try to change the emphasis in a quote does fool anyone.

 "His Majesty cannot help doubting, not only on account of the dangers of the voyage, but on general grounds of expediency...."  Clearly shows that King George V had doubts about an attempt to bring the Romanovs to both on the grounds of the dangers involved in the journey and other considerations.

Petrograd or Romanov-on-Murman presented many of the same problems as a place of embarkation for the Romanovs. To ensure that a ship was not torpedoed meant doing a deal with the enemy - the Germans. The danger of mines, though greatly reduced if Romanov-on-Murman was used, still existed.  Again, If a RN warship had arrived safely at Romanov-on-Murman and the Russian government had been unable to deliver the Romanovs, would a German offer of safe passage have still have held good if the ship was returning to Britain without the former Tsar and his family on board?

On a slightly different note: What were the chances of the Romanovs being able to reach Romanov-on-Murman? In March / April 1917?  Were they safer on such a journey or at the Alexander Palace?

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Yeah, those mines could be dangerous.

Even if a deal could have been worked out to bring Nicky and his family to Britain, those mines would have been a problem.

It might also be possible to identify other potential problems for an RN warship arriving at Petrograd.  A ship heading to the City itself would have had to pass the Russian Navy headquarters at Kronstadt. What if the ship had been damaged by hostile action by elements of the Russian Navy opposed to the Romanovs leaving Russia? If a RN warship had arrived safely at Petrograd and the Russian government had been unable to deliver the Romanovs, would a German offer of safe passage have still have held good if the ship was returning to Britain without the former Tsar and his family on board?

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Quote
the Baltic was heavily mined in that period, and sea mines do quite frequently break free from their moorings

Wasn't it one of those that killed Kitchener when his ship was sunk in 1916?

Yes it was. Kitchener was on board HMS Hampshire.  The Royal Navy lost three Cruisers, one Monitor, 24 Destroyers and another vessels to mine during the First World War.

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Even if agreement had been reached for the Tsar and his family to travel to Britain there might have been a number of difficulties in such a journey.  A journey by sea, through the Baltic could only really have been attempted by agreement with the German government.  A deal between Britain, Germany and Russia during what was then the most terrible war in history to facilitate the travel of a former head of state who was related to the heads of state in Germany and Britain. What would have happened if word of such a deal at that time had got out can only be guessed at.  If Britain had sent a ship to fetch the Romanovs, such an act might have caused further problems. A C Class Cruiser with a complement of 350 plus, even with the benefit of being safe passage by the enemy might still have encountered difficulties. One such possibility would have been if the ship had hit a stay mine in the Baltic and sank with some or all of the people on board drowned. If word had got out about the ship's mission and its fate then the Government would have been open to the charge of sacrificing British lives to transport the King's foreign relatives. Doubtless there were other potential difficulties and hazards that such a voyage might have encountered.

NicholasG.
You might have done better to properly consider other aspects of this subject besides than your own opinion before having to resort to making an attempt at sarcasm.

So we have reached the conclussion that, after all, taking the Russian Imperial Family to Britain was impossible. Therefore the British Prime Minister, the Secretary of Foreign Affairs, the Russian Foreign Minister, Kerensky... , while a world war was going on, wasted their time with meetings, telegrams, discussions of something that obviously would never happen. And George V wouldn't have had to get anxious: he could have kept doing whatever a king is supposed to do during a war instead of continually pushing his secretary, Lord Stamfordham, to keep pestering the British government so they withdraw the offer of asylum. There are two possibilities: they were very stupid or they thought that it could be done.

And it could be done. "How could countries fighting a war reach an agreement to provide safe passage to a ship? What a scandal!". Well, it happened all the time: hospital ships, repatriation of interned civilians... Officers belonging to neutral countries, like Spain, were on board to check that the ships were not carrying military supplies. Not only might it have happen: according to Kerensky, it WOULD have happen, were it not for Britain going back on its word.

"Once again, the Russian government approached England on the matter of asylum.

"We enquired of Sir George Buchanan as to when a cruiser could be sent to take on board the deposed ruler and his family", said Kerensky. "Simultaneously, a promise was obtained from the German government through the medium of the Danish minister, Skavenius, that German submarines would not attack the particular warships which carried the Royal exiles. Sir George Buchanan and ourselves were impatiently awaiting a reply from London. I do not remember exactly whether it was in June or early July when the British ambassador called, greatly distressed... With tears in his eyes, scarcely able to control his emotions, Sir George informed[us]... of the British Government's final refusal to give refuge to the former Emperor of Russia. I cannot quote the exact text of the letter... But I can say definitely that this refusal was due to considerations of internal British politics."

Nicholas and Alexandra, Robert K. Massie, World Books, London, 1969, p. 447-448 (chapter 31)


You may have reached a conclusion. I have not. All I did was to point out one of the difficulties the Royal Navy might have encountered in fetching the Romanovs from Petrograd to Britain by sea and how that might have impacted on the political situation in Britain.

The latest post by Kalafrana sums this up very well.

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Even if agreement had been reached for the Tsar and his family to travel to Britain there might have been a number of difficulties in such a journey.  A journey by sea, through the Baltic could only really have been attempted by agreement with the German government.  A deal between Britain, Germany and Russia during what was then the most terrible war in history to facilitate the travel of a former head of state who was related to the heads of state in Germany and Britain. What would have happened if word of such a deal at that time had got out can only be guessed at.  If Britain had sent a ship to fetch the Romanovs, such an act might have caused further problems. A C Class Cruiser with a complement of 350 plus, even with the benefit of being safe passage by the enemy might still have encountered difficulties. One such possibility would have been if the ship had hit a stay mine in the Baltic and sank with some or all of the people on board drowned. If word had got out about the ship's mission and its fate then the Government would have been open to the charge of sacrificing British lives to transport the King's foreign relatives. Doubtless there were other potential difficulties and hazards that such a voyage might have encountered.

NicholasG.
You might have done better to properly consider other aspects of this subject besides than your own opinion before having to resort to making an attempt at sarcasm.

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NicholaG
You have not supplied evidence that George V acted unconstitutionally.  The records of meetings and correspondence between the government and King make this clear.
A reliable account of George V' life and times would state this if this had occurred. Is there such an account?

You have not supplied evidence that George V blocked any government decision. Nowhere is such wording such as 'forbid' or 'not allow' used.
A reliable account of George V' life and times would state this if this had occurred. Is there such an account?

You have not supplied evidence that George V panicked. You have merely offered an opinion. The despatch of two letters on the same day to the Government regarding the Romanovs
showed that the King saw this as a serious matter. Why should such an act indicate panic? 

Even with hindsight, King George V was right to act as he did.  He seems to have reasoned that the interests of his country and his family in Britain were best served by the Romanovs not coming to live in Britain and if so, he was right to do so. Given the circumstances at that time it was a reasonable decision.

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