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Messages - Lemur

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Here's another clue

"On July 13 plainly in anticipation of their final massacre, the Bolshevik governmentt passed a decree in Moscow nationalizing all property and money of the Romanov family"-- Lost Fortune of the Tsars, page 100

The evidence may be 'circumstantial' but it's far from just 'speculation' or wild guesses. If you're looking for a telegram from Lenin saying "do it now" you're not going to find it, but that does not mean Lenin or at least, as JStorey says, "Moscow" didn't order the execution. None of them wanted to take the blame for anything, which is why the murders of the IF, Mischa, and Ella and the others were all lied about by those who committed them. Do you really think Lenin himself would be so stupid as to leave a path right to his door? This leaves us without absolute proof, and that's what they all wanted.

Alexandra Feodorovna / Re: Alexandra and her education
« on: May 22, 2009, 09:02:16 AM »
According to the book "Empress Alexandra" by Greg King, she had a degree in psychology from Heidelberg University. I've never seen this mentioned in other books. I had always thought Princesses were not permitted to go to public universities with regular people (and not many women of any standing did in those days) For someone with a psych degree, she sure let people mess with her mind. Go figure.

According to Colonel Kobylinsky, the following made the trip to Ekaterinburg:

Leonid Sednev

Thank you. And I'll check my copy of Little Mother Russia and see what it says about that day.

There is a difference between being present at the birth and being in the same room where the woman is giving birth, and it shouldn't be taken so lilterally. It's like families and friends hanging around the hospital, in the waiting rooms and halls, waiting for a baby to be born. They are technically "there when the baby is born", but they aren't all in the birthing room staring at the woman as she screams, cries, lies there with her legs spread out so her privates show, pushing  until the blood-covered baby comes popping out. I seriously doubt just anyone, anywhere, was permitted to be that close. It would have been considered improper, as well as unhealthy and stressful to the mother. Having multiple people in the birthing room witnessing the actual birth is a very new phenomenon from the late 20th century.

to carry out the execution of Nicholas II and his family before the Whites entered Ekaterinburg.


I agree this had to be the main goal. I disagree Lenin had 'forgotten about' the Romanovs or 'had more to worry about.' His biggest problem was the Whites, and they were quickly advancing on Ekaterinburg. If they got there while the Tsar was still alive, they could have freed him, rallied round him, and had a good chance at thwarting the revolution.

Both were imprisioned in Ekaterinburg, and it stands to reason the central government, no matter how weak or challenged, would have had some interest in the fates of the Emperor and Prince Lvov.

I agree, this was an important issue to their entire cause.

"the family suffered the same fate as its head"....what would the need have been to send a telegram worded this way?

According to Gilliard, there had been some issues about the Russian guard becoming friendly with the family, and as Rappaport points out, some had reservations about shooting the children. Moscow may have been concerned that those involved were not able to complete the task of wiping out the whole family, or that there had been some problems. The rest of that telegram reads 'officially they will all perish during the evacuation', meaning they had planned to be dishonest about it because, apparently, no one in Moscow or Ekaterinburg was willing to accept the blame for the murders officially.

In Nicholas and Alexandra it says on page 144 it was Anastasia's birth which caused him to take the long disappointed walk. Is this book wrong then?

It is not surprising he was not in the room when the babies were born. This was very uncustomary until actually the last 25-30 years or so. Even in the 1950's-60's men did not come into the room, not even the father. Usually only the woman's mother and the doctors and nurses were present, if even the mother was allowed. Some hospitals allowed no one.

Such a shame they tagged onto Anna Anderson and the way the treated the Imperial Family post the revolution. To say they are now disliked might be an understatement.

I agree with you Michael. There is no excuse at all for the way he treated the family while trying to secure money for Anna Andersen. Here is the letter he wrote to the sisters of the Tsar.

"Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece..You obviously knew that her late Majesty would not have permitted the issuance by you of such a statement and only waited for her Majesty's death to make it public...I refuse to believe you are not actually convinced Mrs. Tchiakovsky is not the Grand Duchess Anastasia..You are convinced of her real identity, it is evident in the fact that in the course of your whole fight against her you have never made a truthful statement or mentioned a single fact, but resort to the vilest slander and most preposterous lies...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives."

The reason I believe it was ordered from Moscow is that I don't think any local Soviet would make such a big decision on their own. In a time when people were getting shot right and left, for anything, even Bolsheviks against each other, it does not seem plausible that they would take a chance on being shot or replaced if they displeased Lenin. The loose connection to Moscow alleged by Gilliard, who was present at the time of the Whites' investigation, makes sense considering how hardly anyone wanted to accept responsibility for anything. It was common for those in charge to lie out of it and made cover stories for excuses- such as when the family and other Romanovs were killed. It would be very handy for Moscow to order them killed and then find someone else willing to accept the blame. I do accept that Lenin did want Nicholas brought to Moscow for public trial, but must have changed his mind when the Whites were approaching Ekaterinburg. He must have had his doubts he'd be able to keep custody of him, and be able to transport him that far back without him being taken away by the Whites along the way, where they held so much territory at that time.

The Myth and Legends of Survivors / Re: Photos of Claimants
« on: May 10, 2009, 08:19:15 AM »
That is an interesting one, look at all her bedside stuff! I don't believe it's 1921 though, because she looks way too old.


Avdiev was under the immediate control of the other commissaries, members of the Presidium and Tckrezvytckaika. They were not long in realising the change which had come about in the feelings of the guards towards their prisoners, and resolved to adopt drastic measures.At Moscow, too, there was uneasiness, as was proved by the following telegram sent from Ekaterinburg by Bieloborodov to Sverdlov and Golochtchokin (who was then at Moscow): "Syromolotov just left for Moscow to organise according to instructions from centre. Anxiety unnecessary. Useless to worry. Avdiev revoked. Mochkin arrested. Avdiev replaced by Yurovsky. Inside guard changed, replaced by others."

This telegram is dated July 4th.

At this time the death of the Imperial family had already been decided upon in Moscow. The telegram quoted above proves this. Syromolotov left for Moscow "to organise according to instructions from centre"; he was to return with Golochtcholkin, bringing instructions and directions from Sverdlov.

Welcome New Users! Read 1st please. / Re: pics in ur signature
« on: May 08, 2009, 06:37:37 PM »
I want to add one pic to my signature, but I don't have money to get a banner,because  they're toooo  expensive and I can't pay it. Can someone help me????? Please

You don't have to buy anything! Here's a thread where the girls here have made lots of them for anyone to use. All you do is choose one, copy and paste the url into your signature spot on your profile, and put the img tags around it just like posting a picture. If you need more help the girls there will glady assist you!

The account of the murders by A.V. Markov can be found on pages 630-631. He describes how two of the shooters had problems with their guns and it took several tries to kill Misha and his secretary. Once they were finally dead, the killer noted "we could not bury them because it was becoming light rapidly and we were near the road. We drug them together to the side of the road, covered them with branches and went off in the direction of Motovilicihia."

According to the account by the killers in the book A Lifelong Passion, Michael and his secretary were drug off into the woods and covered with leaves and branches. Since the accounts of the killers of the IF and Ella/Paley/KR sons all turned out accurate, I see no reason to believe that one to be false. I highly doubt any Bolshevik executioner would bother to take the time and consideration to find a nice Orthodox cemetary for their victims. If they were indeed left under the branches and not moved again later by others, I wouldn't be suprised if the wolf story were true, sadly. Regardless, finding him will be a lot more of a needle in a haystack than even the two missing children ever were.

The Myth and Legends of Survivors / Re: Photos of Claimants
« on: April 16, 2009, 12:47:08 PM »
It was found in 1979, but since the Soviet regime was still in power those who made the discovery were afraid and covered it back up. They went back to dig it up again in 1991 after communism fell.

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