Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Bourgogne

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
Habsburg archduchess?


I really don't think the portrait on this (really beautiful btw) vase has anything to do with an "Habsburg archduchess"... The coat of arms near the lady has no link with the Habsburgs (or another sovereign house), and above all, is surmounted by a baron's crown...

French Royals / Re: Identification,please
« on: April 10, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.

Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.


Thanks a lot. I agree with you, but I am also not sure about this lady next to Clémentine.

I think this certainly looks to be the Princess of Joinville. She looks quite a bit like her daughter Francoise as well.

If that doesnt tip the scales...the women seems far too young to be the Duchess d'Orleans, who was 10 years older than the Princess de Joinville.

I would like to come back about this picture.

First, this picture was not made about 1855, but about 1865. This, for very simple reasons :

The little girl on the duke of Nemours' knees is his second daughter Blanche, born in 1857. The first daughter Marguerite, later princess Czartoryski, born in 1846, is the last lady standing on the right.

The last lady sitting on the right is not Clémentine, but Isabelle, countess of Paris, who married his first cousin in 1864.

(Btw the boy is not the prince of Condé but the duke of Guise, born in 1854)

Ok... But WHO is the lady sitting near Isabelle? This is my question. I can't believe it's the princess of Joinville, I don't recognize her features, and she would be at least 40 y.o., while this lady seems to be rather young. Could it be her daughter the duchess of Chartres, who married his first cousin in 1863? Maybe. But I don't find it very convincing, because she had a little mouth, and this lady seems to have a more large mouth...

Then who...?

Here a better version :

French Royals / Re: Identification,please
« on: April 10, 2014, 12:17:22 PM »
The following portrait is being sold at Bonhams as "Studio of François Hubert Drouais" and described as "A portrait of a child of the royal family, half-length, wearing the Order of the Holy Spirit and the Order of the Golden Fleece, thought to be Charles Philippe of France".  However, it's clear that the boy has blue eyes, and the portraits of Charles Philippe of France, Comte d'Artois and later Charles X, show him to have brown eyes.  From their portraits, the eldest brother, the short-lived Duc de Bourgogne, had brown eyes, the Comte de Provence, later Louis XVIII, also had brown eyes, and in fact the only boy in that family who had blue eyes was the Duc de Berry, Louis XVI.  I can't think of any boy of that age who would have been wearing the orders of the Holy Spirit and the Golden Fleece except one of the lineal descendants of Louis XV, and the costume seems a miniature version of the costume in the portraits of Berry, Provence and Artois as teenagers.  I don't think it's their father, the Dauphin, either since the wig in his portraits at roughly the same age is different.  So I think this is in fact Louis Auguste, Duc de Berry and later Louis XVI - what do others think?

I reply very late, but anyway... :-) Yes, it's indeed a delightful portrait of the duke of Berry, later Louis XVI, in 1760, by Jean-Martial Frédou. There is another version of this portrait in Versailles, with a "pendant" showing his older brother the duke of Burgundy...

That is why I say reunion. In the photo above, the children were not married.

Ah then ok, everybody together! All the brothers and sisters with each one his/her consort and children, all on the same picture. Well in this case, it would be indeed a beautiful photo, but I don't know if it does exist, I've never seen the whole family together after their respective marriages.

I mean years later with their children.

Ah ok, you mean Clotilde with her husband and children, Gusty with his wife and his children, and so on... Well, yes, definitively there must be some pictures like this... A.o. there are a lot of nice illustration of the whole family (Saxe-Cobourg, Braganza, Bavaria, etc.) in the book "Clémentine d'Orléans" by Olivier Defrance (in french).

The Habsburgs / Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« on: August 21, 2012, 06:54:04 PM »
There is actually a photo of the portrait on the wall in the Kunsthistorisches Museum on Flickr, which was taken in 2010:
Of course by now it might have been changed for something else. That's the trouble with the really large collections - there's not enough room for what are deemed to be 'minor' pieces and they appear and disappear quite quickly.  You can only depend on the big showstoppers, and even then they can be on loan, or taken down for cleaning or restoration.  My father made a special journey to Chicago to see Seurat's La Grande Jatte and it wasn't there.

Same misadventure as your father, for me, in Musée d'Orsay to see the magnificient Bouguereau's Birth of Venus... I was so disapointed. But ok I'm living in Paris, so it was not a big problem to come back later...
The link you give is really very very interesting because I remember very well to have seen the portrait of Sainte Catherine of Sienna by Tiepolo, in the KHM, which is here on the left of our Mimi's portrait... And now I'm sure Mimi's portrait wasn't there at that time, because of course, I could not have forgoten it, if it would have been exposed near the Tiepolo. Btw, my last visit in the KHM was before 2010 :-)
Thank you again and again for all your kind informations...

But...?? the picture I've posted is precisely a reunion photo of the family of Auguste and Clementine...
(Sorry I must be stupid lol)

The Habsburgs / Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« on: August 20, 2012, 07:52:26 PM »

It was painted in 1766 by Marcello Bacciarelli and is apparently in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna.

Thank you very much... Strange I never saw it in KHM, which I visited many times, and also not in Ambras near Innsbruck, where almost all the Habsburg portraits of the KHM are now "relocated"... But there are so many portraits which are not exposed............  :(

The Habsburgs / Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« on: August 19, 2012, 04:44:12 PM »
A nice picture of Maria Christina, though she's not everyone's favorite archduchess:

Amazing!!!! I had never seen this one....!!! Thank you sooo much for this portrait!!! Do you know where it is, who's the painter...?...

PS. "Not everyone's", maybe (?), but mine, certainly ;-)

I wonder if they have a reunion photo of their families too.

Excuse me, but "they" = who...?   


Are you sure this is Gusty ?

Looks more like a young Philip of Sx C G

Yes, you're right, this is not Gusty but Philip... Here are August of SG and Clementine of Orleans, with their children in 1863 :

From left to right Clotilde, Amélie, Philip, Ferdinand and Gusty...

The Habsburgs / Re: Help with Photo Identification, Question or Caption
« on: August 01, 2012, 10:32:43 PM »

We did discuss that photo once. The opinions were different, and I do think that's not Maria Therese, I even thought about a Thurn and Taxis Princess - but still not sure...

In fact, my first idea when I saw the picture, was immediatly Louise of Thurn-and-Taxis, wife of Frederick of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen... But I checked, and finally I'm not so convinced, there is a true ressemblance, but Louise had a little more full face, not so fine. We can suppose maybe on this picture, it was a period where she was more thin... But :-/

I don't think it's MT, and I don't see either who of her sister it could be. Even if there definitively something of the type of all these Braganza princesses, I don't recognize really the face of one of them...

This is a big mystery...

The Habsburgs / Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« on: June 19, 2012, 06:18:33 PM »

The portraits of the two archduchesses are from when they were about the right age, but one can see the style of hair and dress is quite different and there seems very little facial resemblence, although possibly there is some sort of similarity with the eyes - they were Marianne's first cousins once removed.

Yes I know well Marie-Amalia and Maria-Josepha, but it's definively sure they are not the archduchess on Auerbach's portrait. As you say, there is not any ressemblance, not the most little one...  And above all, the fashion is completely different, 1720's for Maria-Amalia and Marie-Josepha, while 1750's on Auerbach's portrait (MA and MJ would have been then ca 55 years old!)

Remember also her brother's face and compare : the debate is over... It's Marianne :-)

The Habsburgs / Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« on: June 16, 2012, 07:39:01 PM »


Come on, CountessKate! How can you ask if this portrait depicts Marianne... ;-) Who else could it be...? :-)

The Habsburgs / Re: Help with Photo Identification, Question or Caption
« on: January 26, 2012, 12:49:00 PM »
It's true that KL's hair seems to be more blond, that's why I have doubts on this identification.

And this "19th century Habsburg type" is so strong, especially when they are young, that it's sometimes difficult to recognize somebody between all these guys with this long face, domed forehead, big lips...

If not KL, I think it's a member of the branch of Toscany...

(But look how Maria-Annunziata, KL's daughter, has got a striking ressemblance with your portrait... Even if it doesn't mean anything, as I said, all the Habsburgs had this face...)

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9