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Messages - perdita

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The Windsors / Re: George and Marina, Duke and Duchess of Kent, Part 2
« on: December 10, 2012, 11:48:50 AM »
Thanks. I just feel that just because she lost her husband, she should be provided for like the rest of the RF. Indeed as one royal born, she was expected to put on a front even if it is difficult to do so. In fact her sister Olga was the same. A friend told me about Olga "Always dressed in the best clothes and in the style and dignity of a royal."  Marina was part of a generation that is moving from royalty as a birth right to more of an institution that included commoners. She wouldn't have understood the antics of her niece Princess Margaret and much less Diana, Camilla or Fergie...etc.

The Windsors are VERY rich & notoriously penurious.

The Duke of Kent was George V1's youngest brother. Prince George died (decapitated) in the serve off his country leaving a distraught young wife with children to fend for herself. The Duchess of Kent, a war widow & foreigner without family living in England, who continued to represent the royal family for decades, should never have been subjected to the indignity of publicly actioning off her private possessions (some belonging to her beloved husband) to make ends meet.

The Queen Mother's impressions of the Duke of Kent after his death:

Aug. 31 to David Bowes Lyon (brother):

"We came back here last week after ten days at Balmoral, for the funeral of poor George. it does seem a dreadful waste, and he was doing such very good work, and becoming so helpful to Bertie. We shall miss him very much, for he was always so gay, and in touch with such a wide circle--which to us is so important, and so affectionate. It really is terrible, and so few to do those sorts of jobs now."

The Queen mother was apparently on very good terms with Prince & Princess Paul of Yuguslovia. George V1 arranged that Princess Olga fly to England (briefly) from her political exile in Africa to stay with her sister Marina immediately following the Duke of Kent's death.

The Queen Mother's recently published letters are circumspect to say the least. Highly edited, discreet, & selective. Example: No where does the the "Queen Mum" mention Princess Di or Fergie. It is only noted that she was "appalled" by their self-serving antics & disloyalty to the institution of the monarchy they officially represented. (Ditto, while partaking to the full in the frills & privleges of that august lifestyle). It was implied that the Queen was particularily aghast at the Princess Di/Morton book deception & collusion.

They do look very chummy together although Olga always looks a bit more distant than her husband.  

Call it expedient diplomacy. Roosevelt & Churchill looked VERY chummy with "Uncle Joe" (Stalin)--the greatest mass killer in history.

The difference between Prince Paul vs. defenders of freedom & democray Roosevelt and Churchill is that Prince Paul didn't take Poland from Hitler at the cost of a world war & 62 million dead only to GIVE Poland (& half of Europe) 6 years later to the same International outlaw Soviet dictator who with his cohort Hitler started the war in the first place by invading Poland.

America's Roosevelt & Truman were the chief instigaters behind the unprecedented Yalta betrayal. Team Player Churchill opposed but capitulated.

Upshot. The British Empire destroyed. The Soviet Empire created.

True to form history dictates the vanquished Prince Paul the traitor & the victorious "leaders of the free world" Roosevelt and Chruchill World War Two's heroes.


I think it's time to start a new part, the previous thread with 34 pages already...

Olga here in a simple black dress combined with a classic pearl necklace, probably sitting in one of the salons of her palace in Belgrade :

Uncanny expression of Princess Olga captured in the late 30s by LIFE Magazine's premier photojournalist Alfred Eisenstaedt. A moment of prescience with respect to the misfortunes that await her family during the war & in it's aftermath.

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Books on the Hesse Royals
« on: November 19, 2012, 10:10:19 AM »
Not quite sure if it fits this thread. Mountbatten have a separate link in the Windsor thread. If nobody objects I would comment.

Cannot compare Hicks marriage with Elizabeth of Hesse, they are different women from different times with different expectations on marriage.

Edwina was an original, but so was Nada (an open lesbian). The fact that VMH both tolerated their antics spoke volumes about this great granddaughter of Queen Victoria.

Have no idea how "unorthodox" the Grand Duchess Elizabeth's marriage was.

There was no comparison intended between Hicks & the Grand Duchess Serge . The comparison meant was between Hick's "prickly" relationship with her mother Edwinda vs. the solid devotion she felt for her father Lord Mounbatten--AND Princess Elizabeth of Hesse's relationship with her parents AWOL Victoria Melita & Ernest Ludwig. There are many like examples--for instance, Olga Alexandrovna's distant & very difficult relationship with her social wirlwind mother the Empress Marie and the love, without reservations, she expressed for her hands-on father Alexander 111.

Edwina was no original. MANY British/International high-society women mimicked her deviant life style. Daisy Duchess of Warwick, Lady Randolph Churchill, "Missy" Queen of Rumania, Freda Dudley Ward (Marquessa de Casa Maury), Lady Alexandra Curzon-Metcalfe, Irene Curzon 3nd. Baroness Revensdale, Victoria Sackville-West, Daphne Marchioness of Bath, "Golden Girls" Guinness sisters, "Tilly" Losch Countess of Carnarvon, Paula long (Marquessa de Casa Maury), Diana Mitford Mosely, Pamela Churchill, Laura (Charteris) Duchess of Marborough, Ann (Charteris) Fleming,  Margaret (Whigham) Duchess of Argyll, Jeanne 6th Baroness of Camoys, Lady Caroline Paget, Thelma Vicountess Furness, Marie Pavlovna, Princess Natalie Paley, Gloria Vanderbuilt, Barbara Hutten, Caroline Blackwood, Ann Vicountess Rosse, Princess Di,...........---i.e., Too numerous to mention.

Arguably, Edwina Mountbatten & Nadejda Marchioness of Milford-Haven antics were tolerated by their royal husbands because the alternatives were too dire--socially, professionally, financially, children's prospects, etc. In George V & Queen Mary's day a divorced person still could not be presented in court. Note the fate of the otherwise respectable Vicountess Nancy Astor, excluded from court--but not from the friendship-aquaintance of Queen Mary & many royals.

A significant difference between Hicks vs. Marie Pavlovna, Edwina Mountbatten, & Princess Paley & ilk--was that Hicks is not a professional victim/whiner--CARPING.  ALWAYS lethal.

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Books on the Hesse Royals
« on: November 18, 2012, 01:31:51 PM »

Although it was said Victoria of Battenberg was an egalitarian who didn't take royalty seriously, she is described by her granddaughter as more imperious than previously thought.

Pamela Hicks on her Mountbatten matriarch grandmother, Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven:

"Even though the king had turned her into a marchioness, she was still a princess in the eyes of her family. My father always kissed her hand before kissing her on the check. As children we didn't think much of her royal starus, but on one motifying occasion, before breakfast, Grandmother called my sister over and said; 'Patricia, dear child, you know all my OTHER granddaughters give me a little curtsey when they say good morning and goodnight.'  In point of fact we also kissed her hand and courtsied, but Patricia must have been a little stiff-kneed that weekend. So rare was it for Grandmama to show any disapproval towards us that ever after my sister's bob was so low she was almost on the floor."

Interesting - and quite in line with the Victoria who was scandalised when her nurse dropped the "Princess" before their names! (though she was still a child at the time, of course).

It was common for European children to show such marks of respect to elders in the early twentieth century, so Victoria might have been betraying her German roots as much as her royal ones in expecting this, but I think the idea of her as some sort of socialist was overplayed by Mountbatten and his "pet authors".  In the 1890s she wrote to Queen Victoria that she believed in gradual change for Russia, when the people were deemed ready, and the whole family was supportive of Grand Duke Serge's views on the need to go VERY slow  - see, for example, her brother's memoirs. Of course, everyone will say they believe slow change is better than revolution, but it's a standard conservative argument: "change will come, but only when we say so."

Victoria of Battenberg & Ernest Ludwig mostly agreed with the Grand Duke Serge's point of view that "slow change" would be a necessity for Russia.

It is also a standard "Rules For Radicals" far left argument that: "Change will come, the way Marxist's 'social justice" arbitrates that it come, our way--or else." Post-revolutionary Marxist, Russia underwent massive change very rapidly culminating in unprecedented civil rights violations and the greatest mass slaughter in history. Russia remains a corrupt de facto KGB dictatorship to this day.

The Hesse family line had it that Victoria of Battenberg was "egalitarian". Hicks described her Grandmother as "enlightened coming from a long line of progressive thinkers". Victoria taught Lord Mountbatten herself until he was ten years old; "gifting him an education that was thorough and polymathic., she taught him to be open minded, methodical and thorough, and above all encouraged him to be enjoy learning, to enquire".
Hick's writes that her grandmother was entirely free of prejudice & was interested in all that was around her....a huge influence on her father's life and his "refreshing way of viewing the world".

i.e., Victoria of Battenberg was an inspiration to all in her family.

Hick's memoirs are not terribly illuminating. She recounts little that royal readers don't already know. Hicks is discreet--there are no shocking revelations, no details, very fitting for a former Lady-In-Waiting to the young Princess Elizabeth.  

Not uncommon with many young aristocrats of her day, Hick's found her High-Society mother Edwina Mountbatten trying--deficient & difficult.

Hick's confirms that her mother collected young men, found that pursuit exciting, and admitted that the ramifications were "messy and complex". According to Hicks when her father first heard that Edwina had acquired lovers, he was "devastated", but eventually as a result of, "their reserves of deep mutual affection, my parents managed to negotiate through this crisis and found a modus vitendi...It was my father's complete lack of jealousy and total desire for my mother's happiness that made their marriage work....he sought a practical solution to life's tricky problems."  

No doubt, it was also expedient to Mountbatten's interests; professionally, financially, & for the sake of his children, to come to terms with Edwina's proclivities & excesses.

Hick's writes as a young child she rarely saw her mother & that it was her nanny Vera who was the center of her universe. As it happened, the absentee Edwina and her lover "Bunny" Phillips would spend up to six months on their world tours. Hick's recounts it was difficult getting used to being back with her mother after she returned from her many adventures,--especially if lover "Bunny" wasn't around. Hick's remembers Edwina as "prickly", and that it was necessary to be very careful of what was said in her presence because "sometimes it was like treading, on egg-shells"--Edwina would be hurt "by the most unlikely things and then would sulk for hours afterwards". In contrast Hick's writes one could say anything one liked to her father, and that she adored living with him when he returned from his tours of duty..."My father was so inventive, constantly thinking up things that would make Patricia and me happy.'

Although Edwina had many lovers she was openly jealous of Mountbatten's romantic attachments and his close relationship with their elder daughter Patricia. Many family scenes resulted.

Hick's actually welcomed her mother's 'deep freindship of love and respect' with Nehru because it made her father's life so much easier. It seems, Edwina's "new found happiness" released Mouthbatten from the relentless late night recriminations. i.e.,--Whenever L.M. left his "huge pile of paperwork" to go up and say goodnight to Edwina he would be bombarded with a "long string of accusations". Her Ladyship accused her husband of not understanding her, of being rude to her, he didn't care about her, he wasn't sufficiently sympathetic to her needs, etc. Mountbatten was always sympathetic & apologized although it wasn't clear to him what exactly he had done. Apparently, subsequent to Edwina's friendship with Nehru it was simply "Goodnight, Dickie darling"--with a smile, & Mountbatten could then go to bed without a heavy heart.

Hick's is convinced Edwina Mountbatten's & Nehru's "affair' was not sexual in nature. (Lucky Nehru, considering.)

Hick's accepted Edwina Mountbatten--warts & all. Perhaps, influenced by her father's "refreshing" philosophy, this daughter of the empire expressed no apparent bitterness towards her mother. As with Elizabeth of Hesse, her chief attachment was for the father she loved.

Interestingly, Hick's admitted that her own marriage to David Hicks, while enduring, was "unothodox'.

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Books on the Hesse Royals
« on: November 16, 2012, 12:05:24 PM »
Ernie was the most expressive parent, that does not mean that Ducky did not love her daughter.

I read that Ernst wrote his memoirs. Were they published ?

Ernest Ludwig wrote his memoirs for archival use. Not sure his reminiscences were published. (?)

Apparently, Princess Elizabeth did question her mother's love. Of course, that doesn't mean Victoria Melita didn't love her daughter. However, Princess Elizabeth's angst attitude towards her mother suggests that the AWOL Victoria Melita's priorities were not centered on her duties to Hesse-Darmstadts, her husband, or daughter.

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Books on the Hesse Royals
« on: November 16, 2012, 11:47:51 AM »
Ernest Ludwig was Lord Mountbatten's uncle.  

In Pamela Mountbatten Hick's new book "Daughter of Empire" she decribes her visits with her father's uncle Ernest Ludwig & second wife Eleonore as a very happy experience. She charaterizes Ernest as inventive and fun loving and his second wife "Oner" as "extremely kind and patient".  

Although it was said Victoria of Battenberg was an egalitarian who didn't take royalty seriously, she is described by her granddaughter as more imperious than previously thought.

Pamela Hicks on her Mountbatten matriarch grandmother, Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven:

"Even though the king had turned her into a marchioness, she was still a princess in the eyes of her family. My father always kissed her hand before kissing her on the check. As children we didn't think much of her royal starus, but on one motifying occasion, before breakfast, Grandmother called my sister over and said; 'Patricia, dear child, you know all my OTHER granddaughters give me a little curtsey when they say good morning and goodnight.'  In point of fact we also kissed her hand and courtsied, but Patricia must have been a little stiff-kneed that weekend. So rare was it for Grandmama to show any disapproval towards us that ever after my sister's bob was so low she was almost on the floor."

It's unlikely royalty stickler Victoria's younger sister the Empress Alexandra would have remonstrated a granddaughter for not remembering her royal status in a private setting.

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Books on the Hesse Royals
« on: November 16, 2012, 10:13:45 AM »

He did - to use an American expression, Ernie apparently played for both teams.    More seriously, Ernie does not come off well in Dearest Missy  in comments by Grand Duchess Marie to Marie regarding Ernie's inability to be interested in sex with women.

Whereas "Love, Power and tragedy" is not a scholarly work at all - not by long shot - Knodt's biography of Ernst Ludwig is several classes above, a well-researched work,  rich in details and free of unsubstantiated personal interpretations/convenient propaganda, and I find it a most useful book of reference, although he could have explored certain aspects of Ernst Ludwig´s private life in greater detail.

Marlene [Eilers Koenig] has said in the past that Dr Knodt spoke to her more freely about Ernst's personal life than he was able to write about it. As you probably know, he felt that Ernst was bisexual rather than homosexual, as he had uncovered evidence of illegitimate children. Given that and the unsavoury suggestions in other sources of an interest in young boys, it seems to me that EL was -at least in youth - a highly-sexed man who liked to try everything!

It would be interesting to hear Ernest Ludwig's version of events--i.e., Victoria Melita as wife & consort to Ernest Ludwig.

Apparently, Victoria Melita did not come off well in the eyes of her daughter, Princess Elizabeth of Hesse. The little girl adored her father. Her mother NO.

If you want to live in a rose tainted bowl and ignored the truth of how Alicky was a control freak mother. Olga who wanted to break away and had serious problems with her mother and Marie whose last affair with the guards was "ignored" by the family shortly before they were executed. There is enough material to rebutt the ideal vision that you indicate. The truth is not always beautiful, but it is real. I personally belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the girls were sainted because of the way they died.

Nicholas was of course weak (he allowed the marriages of Kyrill, Paul & Misha to go through and gave Ducky the title of grand duchess). King Edward VIII once said he liked his Russian nephew (Nicholas II) but he was as weak as water. Miechen said Alexandra should be shut up in a nunnery and ready to make that happen. Respect ?

And there is enough FIRST HAND material --letters, diaries, family members, eye witness staff, etc.,  to rebutt your nightmare version of Nicholas & Alexandra's family life.

Courtiers described OTMA as "wild as hawks". Their social contacts may have been limited, but the Grand Duchesses were hardly abused or supressed. In fact, the eye witness concensus had it that the girls were charming, happy, & "sufficient unto themselves".

Most Romanovs had a wide circle of friends in Russian society. Give evidence that those contacts led to their fullfilled potential, contentment, or a moral compass.

How many members of the Russian royal family liked or respected Miechen? With the exception of boon companion Marie Alexandrovna--WHO? Ever the indulgent mother, Miechen's three sons were hardly paragons of virtue flaunting their myriad of outstanding public accomplishments.

Hint: Shutting up Alexandra in a nunnery would not have saved Russia from being Russia.

"Weak as water" might be a fair description of Edward V11's private character & public example. Edward V11 was also an absentee father.  
Better OTMA--than Eddy of Clarence.
Do you imagine that OTMA would have exchanged their lives for the VERY socially stunted existence of the "Motherdear" dominated Princess Louise, Victoria, & Maud?
Would OTMA have traded their parents for the Duke of Windsor's George V & Queen Mary?
Would OTMA have exchanged their parents for King Ferdinand & Queen Marie of Rumania? --Or for the relationsip "Missy" had with her children Carol, Nicholas, or Elzabetha? Or for the relationship Marie & Dmitri had with the Grand Duke Paul?

The answer: A resounding NO.

In fact, the Duke of Windsor wrote that he envied the Tsar's children's relationship with their father.

Other than second hand gossip & revisionist supposition, submit your credible first hand accounts that the Grand Duchess Marie had affairs with prison guards. Did her parents & sisters say that? Family retainers?

Incidentally, had Olga Nichoelavna wanted to "break away" then why, by age 23, hadn't she done it? The eldest daughter of the Tsar must have been "breaking away" a long time to get no further than her parent's dinner table. Where is the documentation that Olga showed any serious initiative to persue a separate existence apart from her family. Actions, or rather non actions, SPEAK volumes.

Correction: Grand Duchess Anasatasie Mikhailovna. (The aberrant sister of "Sandro".)

There is evidence that guards were replaced when they get too close to the girls. Since they were isolated and kept from society, the only emotional outlets are the guards and they often led into unequal unions. Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovna was the prime example. Ernst of Hesse thinks Nicholas II was weak by saying that he was a nice man but don't know how to handle his sister. So the ideal image of the Imperial Family came crashing down. By the time of the revolution nobody in the Imperial family respects them.

The list.

Sandro & Xenia
Olga of Greece
Kyrill & Victoria
Marie of Greece
Count Witte
Grand Duke Paul & his wife
Grand Duke Nicholas
Princess Yussopov.

Almost your identical list on those who "respected" Serge.
Although KR indicated that he lost his respect for Serge after the coronation disaster in Moscow.
As did Sandro and his brothers who walked out of the French Ball.
Don't think Dowager Empress Marie was too fond of Serge either.

KR did not say that he lost respect for Serge after the coronation disaster. What he wrote was; "Of course, Sergei is not personally responsible... however, it is his fault he is being showered with accusations"--i.e., Serge did not go to scene of incident & proceeded with the French ball. (Ulimately, it was the Emperor's decision to attend.) As a result KR remarked "(Serge) has not acted in the way I consider he should." This greived KR because "I love him dearly."

KR remained a confidant & a fast friend of the Grand Duke Serge to the last.

KR, quote 1905 assassination: "As if struck by lightening, for the first minutes I could not take anything in. I went to say goodby to Mama. She is never told any bad news. It was only as I was leaving her that I realized what I had lost, and burst into tears. I must prepare my wife--she loved Sergei so much."

Marie Pavlovna on her uncle the Grand Duke Serge: "Those few who knew him well were deeply devoted to him."

Where does the Dowager Empress Marie specifically state that she did not like the Grand Duke Sergei?

Hardly a new revelation that Nicholas was "weak" when it came to curbing the excesses of Alexandra.

The "List" names may have lost respect for Nicholas as Tsar, but none on that list denied the conjugal love Nicholas & Alexandra felt for one another, or the respect & devotion the children had for their parents.

That the Grand Duchess Marie was conjectured "boycotted" in 1918 by her family is absurd. Where is the evidence?

Nicholas & his family's royal letters, diaries, & the first hand testimony of their Romanov relations, friends, and staff are more to be credited than contemporay revisionist authors peddling snide "modern psychological testing" (suppositions), glaring factual errors, secondary sourcing--not first hand, rudimentary notes making it difficult to validate those stories, no apparent new archival research,--ditto indeterminate chronology, etc.

"Isolated & kept from society....Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovich was a prime example."

Whether kept from society OR NO--the Romnaov family was replete with "unequal unions". Misalliances were not a proclivity restricted to the mother dominated & isolated Olga Alexandrovna.

Examples: Alexandra critics "Missy"of Rumania & George V's in no way isolated or shielded their sons from society, i.e.,-- King Carol of Rumania, Prince Nicholas of Rumania, & Edward V111 of England,--AND ALL cultivated a major taste for "unequal unions".

As did (In one form or another):
Alexander 11
Grand Duke Constantine Nicholavich
Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Constantinovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Michaelovich
Grand Duke Michael Michaelovich
"Sandro" Michaelovich (In exile)
Grand Duchess Anastasia Michaelovich (Informally)
Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Andrea Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich
Marie Pavlovna
Elizabeth of Rumania (informally)
Princess Marie of Greece

Nor did Nicholas 11 grant permission for Kyril to marry his divorced first cousin Victoria Melita. Not an "unequal" match--but not permitted by the laws of the Russian Orthodox Church.

OTMA died devout & respected young women in the eyes of their Emperor & the Russian Orthodox Church. Don't conjecture to defile their memory.

The topic is their childlessness. There is no medical records of Ella or doctors to understand why she cannot have a baby. There are doubts too on Serge side when Alexander III indicate he knows why his brother cannot have children. Since there is not mention of what happen behind close doors in the letters or journals by either that survive. Everything we say here is speculation.

Kalafrana is correct. It's all conjecture.

Alexander 111 indicated that Serge & Ella would not have children. The Tsar did not specify the reason, regreted that they were denied that comfort from God, and was very sympatheic to their "sad" plight.

It's far fetched to assume that Serge would have confined in the puritanical Alexander 111 that his marriage would not be consummated because he was homosexual. i.e.,--Branding himself in the eyes of the Greek Orthodox Church a sexual deviant.  Arguably, not in character--and homosexuals do have children.

In 1891 Alexander 111 demonstrated his confidence in Serge when he appointed him Governor of Moscow, a position of honor & great consequence.

Read this recently and thoroughly enjoyed it, very well written. One thing I noticed through was how Anya Vyrubova was portrayed. I had always thought of her as a puppy: affectionate, loving and selfless but this books seemed to show her as the opposite: manipulative, demanding and sullen. Did I miss something or have I just been very blind?

This is how Vyubova is described first hand by her contemporaries:

Pierre Gilliard:

"The Empress only established friendships in which she was quite sure of being the dominant partner...(Vyrubova) had the mind of a child, and her unhappy experiences had shaped her sensibilities without maturing her judgement..Lacking in intellect and discrimination, she was the prey of her impulses..of limited and puerile understanding...docile and unconscious...mischievious...a tool.."


Vyrubova--"Physically coarse..heavily built, with a round head, fleshy lips..limpid eyes devoid of expression..very devout, but unintelligent...unattractive and very dull-witted.."

Felix Yusupov:

Vyrubova--"Stout with a puffy, shiny face, and no charm whatsoever..not at all intelligent...extremely crafty and rather sly...unattractive..quite a problem to find (dancing) partners for her.."

Hardly rave reviews.

Clearly, the unpopular self-isolated Alexandra imagined that a royal in her position required a safe docile companion of unswerving loyalty. The hapless Anya was made to order: servile dog-like, forever "wronged", a dependent in need of protection. Right up Alexandra's ally. True to form, the Tsar's attitute appears to have been to abide & tolerate. Vyrubova does not play a meaningful part in the Emperor's letters, diaries, or thoughts.

The Empress occasionally mocked Anna's infatuation with the Tsar.

Alexandra to Nicholas 1915, quote:

"I am sending you a VERY FAT leter from the Cow (Vyrubova), the lovesick creature would not wait any longer. She must pour out her love otherwise she bursts....It's naughty my grumbling about her, but you know how aggravating she can be."

Alexandra's take on Vyrobova was, at times, sniping & condescending. Exasperated. Eventually, Vyrubova's propensities would cause rifts in their relationship. It seems "The Cow" proved a stretch even for Alexandra's dominate "mothering" instincts.


Well...Did you read Olga's diaries ? They are full of soldiers, guards etc. One train of thought is that she refused to marry Carol of Romania because she was in love with a palace guard, who was speedily re-posted and married. No...Virginia Rounding was not the first one to see cracks in the "idyllic" version.  I trust Missy's observations that the girls were afraid of their mother. and could only be natural if she was not around. Hardly an ideal situation. In the later days of the captivity, Marie fell in love with a guard and was boycotted by the rest of the family.

The truth is painful but I prefer that to the rose tainted glasses. I don't think you could trust the words of Marie and discount that of Sandro. They all have to be taken as a whole.

MOST teenage girl's diaries (& thoughts) are full of man crushes. So what? Is there evidence that Olga & Tatiana requested permission to marry a suitable partner ("Man Of Their Dreams") and that Nicholas & Alexandra refused?

Marie of Rumania & Victoria Melita could not abide the Empress Alexandra. Neither were impartial witnesses. "Missy" scantly knew OTMA & her cursory observations were hardly conclusive. No doubt Alexandra had instructed her daughters to be on their best behavior with the Rumanian Queen and when absent the young Grand Duchesses relaxed in her presense, along with their father who, unlike Alix, enjoyed a comfortable relationship with his cousin.

The idea that OTMA could "only be natural" when their mother wasn't around is not substaniated. The vast majority of the Romanov family, friends, & staff who knew Nichoals & Alexandra intimately long term & FIRST HAND describe their relations with their daughters as informal & delightful. Even "Missy" did not deny that Alexandra was a good mother and wife who's family life was happy--i.e., "Sufficent unto themselves".

Summing up, "Missy's" opinion of Alexandra was grudging to say the least and she was only too willing to find fault & cast all blame for Russia's problems on Alexandra.

Marie of Rumania on OTMA: "I was never with them long enough to know them intimately."

Marie Pavlovna vs. "Sandro"?

Marie & Dimitri lived intimately with Serge & Ella for over a decade. Sandro, a confirmed Serge vilifier & abject Ella partisan, did not.

Did Dimitri contradict his sister's public narrative?

Why NOT dismiss Sandro's lone opinion of Serge within the Romanov family circle? Summarily you dismiss the views of dozens of credible people who knew Serge well and who claimed to "love" "like" or "respect" him?

To reinterate:

"Missy" Marie of Rumania
Grand Duchess Elizabeth--wife.
Tsar Alexander 111
KR--And all his family.
Prince Gabriel
Grand Duke Paul
Marie Alexandrovna
Olga Alexandrovna
Victoria of Battenberg
Ernest of Hesse
Olga of Greece
Alexandra of Greece
Marie of Greece
Grand Duke Kyrill & Victoria Melita
Poet A.F. Tuitchev
Meriel Buchanan
Countess Kleinmichel & daughters
Zinaida Yusupov
Countess Tolstoy & family.

Were they ALL blindsided dupes?

Senior Statesman Count Sergei Witte under two Tsars, quote

"The Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich, in essence, was a very noble and honest man."

To repeat. You do not condemn KR & Sandro for their marital transgressions confirmed, but smear with conjecture the private reputation of the Grand Duke Serge for marital offences not confirmed.  (?)

'Also Marie Paulovna did not blame her father in running off with a woman of bad reputation and abandoning them, but blamed Ella for not letting her be close to them ?'

It is not all that unusual for children to idolise parents who abandon them, and make all kinds of mental 'excuses' for their absence. Someone on the spot is easier to blame!


It was easier for Marie Pavlovna to transfer the onus of her father's abandonment of his children (a choice freely made) to the uncle & aunt left to pick up the pieces.  

Serge a willing dupe, Ella not.

In Marie Pavlovna's mind, the sole martyr & victim of the piece was the perpetrator, the Grand Duke Paul. She cast as villians Serge & Ella--& both ended up getting the shaft.  

Nobody got what they wanted.

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