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Messages - BingandNelsonFan

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91
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 08:26:46 PM »
I will be following with interest.
One more possible (but unlikely) variant occured to me -  inspired by Кёттериц: Денисьёв !
The only thing we can be certain of is that the name was not the regular Денисов.

It seems we are dealing with two very odd surnames. плаутин / Plautin is odd because it's quite rare to come across diphtongs in Russian. I assume it's derived from the river Плаутка / Plautka, just like Lenin from the river Lena.

Interestingly enough, I have read that the Plautins name stems from the Scottish name "Plowden". Apparently, the family came to Russia from Scotland during the time of Peter the Great. That probably accounts for the oddity and rareness of the name. I'll post more tomorrow!

Regards,
Sarah

92
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 07:23:45 PM »
LOL, no, but he must have left a strong impression because in a recent Russian movie "Смеющийся человек"  (The Smiling Man) the name Фриц Кёттериц (Fritz Kötteritz) is apparently used as a typical German army name!

Very sloppy to have so little trace of this union, when the father of the bride was a professional (sinecurial?) Genealogist (of the Order of St Patrick)!

It is quite funny that he is so "lost". Though, I have not seen any reference to a father that is a genealogist. Where is that? I would be most interested! :)

Wikipedia: Денисьевы

Correction:
Now I see that Wikipedia spells it Денисьев (Denisev / Denisseff) with a soft sign (ь) and not денисъев (Denisyev / Denissieff) with a hard sign (ъ). Our theory is thus less solid. But it has to be said that confusion can easily arise in a historical context, as the hard sign was used a lot more before the Revolution, while it's quite rare nowadays, because, if I understand correctly, all final consonants (including before suffixes -ев?) were marked with the soft or hard sign. Perhaps the spelling Денисьев signified something else (iotation instead of obvious palatalisation) before the Revolution?

So, this means that we still are not sure which exact family of Denisevs (or any other form of the name) that we're coming from. I am definitely going to keep working on this and hope that I can find some more info throughout the coming week --- which I will be sure to post!

93
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 05:55:43 PM »
Just for fun, here is another elusive one:

Colonel Bernard Ernest Jule(s) de Koetteritz.
He was in the service of the Russian Imperial Guard. He married Emma Bruce in Italy on 18 Oct 1849.
He was the son of a General de Koetteritz who lived at Leipzig, Brandenburg, Germany. I believe that he is going to have been born Bernhard Von Koetteritz in 1807 (at or near Brandenburg (Havel), Brandenburg, Preußen, Germany), with his parents being Con Koetteritz and Juliane. Not sure about that, though.

Do you see any reference to him? I have been completely unable to find anything but a document from a visit to England in the 1840s.

94
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 04:51:13 PM »
Interesting. I would presume it was a Baltic German family (Russian first name + German territorial last name from a small village in Lower Saxony), but can't find any trace of any A(h)renfeld(t) family in Russian. There is a Dano-Norwegian officer family called Arenfeldt.

May well be that. They seem to have settled in Paris at some point. Their daughter was Helene. It also looks like Kyril escaped Russia and went to Poland at the time of the Revolution.

95
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »
Fabulous! That website looks like just what I need. I don't think that my Google Translate button has ever had this much of a workout in one afternoon! ;)

It certainly does look like that is their name.

Would it help to know that it looks like their daughter, Elena, married someone named Kyril Arenfelt. That spelling is rough, so I'm not exactly sure what the name is. Sorry.

96
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 04:02:20 PM »
Thanks for all of this info! So, I should be spelling it "Denisev" in English?

That really depends on what the Russian original turns out to be and how phonetic you want to go. денисев is pronounced /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ɪ f / in Russian. денисов would be /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ə f/. The English equivalent would be Tennyson. :-)

денисев = Denissieff (with palatalisation of the -s. If we are talking full yodification the name could perhaps also be spelled денисъев?.

Seems the correct term is "iotation".

Voilà: Two major-generals called Денисьев: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2

Thanks! I am making notes of all these variations and searching for all. I cannot find what Serge Denissieff (husband of Vera Plaoutine) did for a living or career. He may have been in the military. It does appear that he died of pneumonia in Russia in 1926.

Thanks for the help!

97
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 02:53:57 PM »
Thanks for all of this info! So, I should be spelling it "Denisev" in English? Of course, I know that there is great room for variation, as I have found Plaoutines with the names of "de Plaoutine" "Plaontine" "Plaoutin" "Plautin" and "Plautine".

The Plaoutines actually lived at 25 Millionaya Street. Looking at Google Maps, you can still see the building and the Arms! It was Vera Plaoutine Denisev's father, Sergei Nikolaivich, who owned the house. It was also the home of Vera's younger brother, Mikhail Sergeivich.

I still have not been able to find anything more on Serge Denissieff (or Denisev). Will post any new info that I find. :)

98
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 02:20:33 PM »
Thanks for looking! I have been able to find that Marianne (youngest child of Vera and Serge) was born around 1905. Maybe that will help!

If they romanized the name into Denisieff (à la française), mustn't it have been денисев / Denisev in the original Russian? It most likely had an Ukrainian / South Russian origin.

That sounds right. Apparently, Marianne (and her sisters, maybe) left Russia and went to France. Her cousin (and first husband), George Plaoutine, lived in France with other members of his family. Maybe she went near them. "Denisev" would be the original Russian, then? I will try looking for that. I had found a couple translations with "Denisov", but it is so difficult, since I'm relying on computer translators, to figure out the names. :) Thanks!

99
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: December 29, 2013, 10:01:00 AM »
After finding a few newspaper clippings and stories, I have been inspired to learn about Sergei Nikolaevich de Plaoutine (Plautin) and his wife, Eleanor Pringle. Thanks to some very helpful people on this forum, I have found out about three of their four children. Their second child, however, has proved so elusive. I only know a couple of facts about her, and I am hoping that someone here may know a little more.

Vera de Plaoutine (Plautin) was born at Tsarskoe-Selo on 05 Aug 1869. She died between 1916-17.
She married Serge Denissieff (Denisov). He died in 1926 at Petrograd.
They had five children:
Serge (escaped Russia and served in the British Forces with the name Sergei Denissieff --- must have died during the First World War or shortly afterwards).
Alec (died in some kind of air accident during or shortly after the First World War).
Elena
Iza
Marrianne (or Mariamne). She married twice. Her first marriage was to her first cousin, George N. Plaoutine. He died in a German Air Raid at Algiers in 1942. They had one daughter, Helene (or Elena), who also died in the Air Raid.
Marianne's second husband was a British Naval Officer. His name was Robert Alexander Smith. They married in 1945 and had a son, Andrew.

I am really trying to find out anything about Vera and her husband, Serge. I have browsed through a few Russian pages online, but they seem to have Vera mixed up with a Vera Plautin Zubov. She was born in 1845, but the sites have added Marrianne as her youngest child.

Thanks to anyone who is able to help with this!
Regards,
Sarah

100
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: May 21, 2013, 06:47:51 AM »
Fabulous info. Thanks, too, for the e-mail. This certainly adds a lot to the little amount that I know. I was not able to find reference to either Dimitri or Tatiana, though the "Nouvel Almanach du Corps Diplomatique: Ancien Almanach de Gotha" from 1939 lists two other girls. I am assuming that they died either as infants or children. Here is the listing (this has just been translated on Google Translate from French, so that's why it's a little rough):

(Stcherbatov, Scherbatow, Scherbatoff)
Serge, born in St Petersburg 21 Jan 1870 f Kharkov May 31, 1919, att. the min. the Russian interior, m. St Petersburg 12 Jan 1897 Elisabeth Plaoutine (Hered Russian nobility.), born in St. Petersburg March 2, 1875, f (shot to death) to Smolensk. . . 1921 Bridesmaid empresses of Russia
Children: 1 Prof. Boris born in St. Petersburg October 17, 1897 (rifles) has Archangel 1920 Russian apirant
2) Psse Elizabeth, born in St. Petersburg November 5, 1898
3) Psse Marie, born January 5, 1900 in Florence
4) Psse Irena, born September 2, 1901 in Lebanon (Executed) Smolensk 1921


What about Elizaveta's brother, Nicholas (married to Maria Mikhailovna Raevskaya)? I am pretty sure that he attended Brighton College, so I have an e-mail out to them asking if they know anything about him. Thanks again for the great info!

101
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: May 19, 2013, 01:53:23 PM »
I have been spending a lot of time this weekend working on this, and am finally sorting things out.

Eleanor Pringle married Sergei Nikolaevich "Serge" de Plaoutine (or Plautin) in Nice on 30 Apr 1867. They had at least four children, only two of whom seem to have survived to adulthood. Eleanor died in Nice in 1924. Serge died in 1927 (assuming in Nice).

Michael Sergevitch de Plaoutine married Selina Rogers Woodhouse (ex-wife of Arthur Woodhouse, Consul at St. Petersburg, and mother of Ella Winifred Woodhouse Cordasco). Michael de Plaoutine was killed around 04 Sep 1918 and legally declared dead in 1928.

Serge and Michael seem to have been related, as they both seemed to have lived at the house 25 Millionaya at some point between the years of 1913 and 1918.

Serge and Eleanor's son, Nicholas, seems to have attended Brighton College. I cannot find if he and his wife had any children.
Serge and Eleanor's daughter married and had at least four children. She and two of the children were shot to death at Smolensk in 1921.

If anyone is able to continue adding information here, I would be most appreciative. Thanks! :)

102
Russian Noble Families / Re: Millionnaya Street
« on: May 19, 2013, 11:07:24 AM »
Please, I am hoping that someone can point me to the place where I can read Ella Cordasco's Diary. The link below is not working. I am really trying to figure out how the Plaoutines fit in with the Woodhouses. So, if anyone can help with this, please let me know. :)

There are fascinating reminiscences of Ella Woodhouse Cordasco, the daughter of the British Consul in St. Petersburg A.W. Woodhouse. She writes of living in a dacha in Strelna commuting daily with her father to St. Petersburg, of the days of the revolution, leaving for England while her father remained after the departure of Ambassador Buchanan, and a lengthy report of the Times correspondent of the raid on the British Embassy on August 31st and their subsequent incarceration in the Peter & Paul Fortress before finally been allowed to leave.

http://www.zimdocs.btinternet.co.uk/fh/ella2.html

She also writes of her mother's marriage to Mikhail Sergeievich Plaoutine. "...Their house in Petrograd was also in the Millionnaya, the street parallel to the Palace Quay, leading out of the great square in front of the Winter Palace, alonside which, was the famous "Hermitage" art gallery; next to that was a military establishment, and a few doors along, the Plaoutine's..."

I have read that N.P. Sablin had an appartment on the Millionnaya and GD Michael Alexandrovich took refuge in one. I am curious of the history of these houses along the Millionnaya and who lived there. Does anyone know of sources, photos c1900's, state of these today?

Mike, in your post of Films-Hermitage of July 29th you wrote of your school at 204 Millionnaya. Do you know the history of the building? Is it possible it was Plaoutine's!

Joanna



103
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: May 15, 2013, 07:43:05 AM »
I posted this the other day in the "Servants, Friends and Retainers" board, but now I'm beginning to wonder if I should have posted here. I am hoping that someone (or multiple people!  Smiley ) will be able to help me learn about Michael Sergevitch "Serge" de Plaoutine (who seems to be know by the Russians as Sergei Nikolaevich Plaoutine or Plautin). As far as I have been able to learn, he served as Aide-de-Camp to Alexander II and Alexander III. He was the son of a famous "General de Plaoutine".

De Plaoutine married Eleanor Hester Mary Pringle (an English woman) in Nice, France, on 30 Apr 1867. They obviously lived in Russia for decades. They had at least two children:

A daughter (I believe that her name was Selina) who was born at Tsarskoe Selo on 05 Aug 1869
A son (name unknown to me), also born at Tsarskoe Selo, on 28 Aug 1873

There is a Nicholas de Plaoutine who was born 02 Feb 1868 and attended Brighton College. Someone responding to the other post says that Nikolai de Plaoutine (b. 1868) was, indeed, their son. They also stated that they had a daughter, Elizaveta (1875-1921). Birth announcements were published in English papers for a son and daughter, each born at Tsarskoe Selo on the dates given above. Despite the discrepancy in the birth years, I am wondering if Elizaveta and Selina are the same --- and the Russian records show the year of her naturalization as her death. Of course, there could be two daughters, too.

The de Plaoutines moved to the South of France around 1900, give or take. Serge de Plaoutine was back in Russia in August 1918, because he was arrested by the Bolshevists on 01 Sep 1918 and confined in prison. He was not heard from after that time, and it was assumed that he died on 04 Sep 1918. His wife had actually gone to see the head of the Cheka, to inquire into the whereabouts of her husband, but was able to learn nothing. De Plaoutine was legally declared dead in the Probate Court in London on 28 Nov 1927. (See transcription of newspaper report at the bottom of this post).

Mrs. de Plaoutine had died at the family chateau in Nice in 1924. The daughter, Selina, went to London in 1921 and naturalized as a British citizen. She married George Neame in 1925. She was granted the English probate of Serge's estate in 1928. She died in England in 1951.

That is everything that I know, but I am really hoping that others will be able to add to this information. I have been working on some genealogy and just found a link to them, and my sister and I would LOVE to know more. Smiley Thanks a lot!


Aberdeen Press and Journal
Tuesday, 29 Nov 1927

SOVIET REVOLT ECHO
Court Presumes Death of
Russian Noble

There was an echo in the Probate Court, London, yesterday of the dramatic events in Russia following the introduction of the Bloshevist regime, when Lord Merrivale had before him an application to presume the death as having occurred on or since September 4, 1918, of Michael Sergevitch de Plaoutine. Applicants held a power of attorney for the widow, an Englishwoman by birth, who married the presumed deceased, a Russian noble-man. According to the evidence of the widow on affidavit, the presumed deceased was arrested by the Bolshevists on September 1, 1918, and confined in the prison. He had not been heard of since September, 1918.
Her husband said the wife, was an aide-de-camp of the late Tsar of Russia and a noble-man of considerable wealth and social and political standing. After the arrest of her husband she went at great personal risk to the head of the Cheka, who assisted her in her inquiries because she was an Englishwoman.
The application was granted.

104
Russian Noble Families / Re: Plaoutine family
« on: May 14, 2013, 04:58:46 PM »
Thank you for all of that info. That gives me a lot more leads than I've got, and more names always make things easier. My sister and I are having so much fun with this, as we've always enjoyed studying Imperial Russia, and this gives us something fun to look into.

That is interesting to see that his name is actually different. There's no doubt that it was Michael Sergevitch in the English world and that he must have just been called "Serge". Of course, that wouldn't be the first time that the English changed a name when "translating". I have included a transcript of a 1927 newspaper article that I've found which explains the circumstances of his death (see bottom of post). Probate was granted the following year to Selina de Plaoutine.

About the son, Nikolai: That makes great sense, as I had found some references to a Nikolai. In fact, there is a Nicholas de Plaoutine who was born 02 Feb 1868 and attended Brighton College. So, I would assume that is there son.

Birth announcements were published in English papers for a son and daughter, each born at Tsarskoe Selo on the dates given in my first post. So, that's why I could only find two children but wasn't sure of names. Selina is on naturalization records in 1921 and was granted the probate of De Plaoutine's limited English estate --- which is why I assumed that she was the daughter. Despite the discrepancy in the birth years, I am wondering if Elizaveta and Selina are the same --- and the Russian records show the year of her naturalization as her death. Of course, there could be two daughters, too. Something fun to work on!

Again, thank for the reply, and any information is most appreciated. This is the first time that I've ever tried to do any "research" in Russian history --- other than reading a book. :)



Aberdeen Press and Journal
Tuesday, 29 Nov 1927

SOVIET REVOLT ECHO
Court Presumes Death of
Russian Noble

There was an echo in the Probate Court, London, yesterday of the dramatic events in Russia following the introduction of the Bloshevist regime, when Lord Merrivale had before him an application to presume the death as having occurred on or since September 4, 1918, of Michael Sergevitch de Plaoutine. Applicants held a power of attorney for the widow, an Englishwoman by birth, who married the presumed deceased, a Russian noble-man. According to the evidence of the widow on affidavit, the presumed deceased was arrested by the Bolshevists on September 1, 1918, and confined in the prison. He had not been heard of since September, 1918.
Her husband said the wife, was an aide-de-camp of the late Tsar of Russia and a noble-man of considerable wealth and social and political standing. After the arrest of her husband she went at great personal risk to the head of the Cheka, who assisted her in her inquiries because she was an Englishwoman.
The application was granted.


105
Russian Noble Families / Plaoutine family
« on: May 14, 2013, 09:30:55 AM »
I am hoping that someone (or multiple people!  :) ) will be able to help me learn about Michael Sergevitch "Serge" de Plaoutine. As far as I have been able to learn, he served as Aide-de-Camp to Alexander II and Alexander III. He was the son of a famous "General de Plaoutine", but I don't know the father's Christian name or the date of Serge's birth.

De Plaoutine married Eleanor Hester Mary Pringle (an English woman) in Nice, France, on 30 Apr 1867. They obviously lived in Russia for decades. They had at least two children:

A daughter, Selina, who was born at Tsarskoe Selo on 05 Aug 1869
A son (name unknown to me), also born at Tsarskoe Selo, on 28 Aug 1873

The de Plaoutines moved to the South of France around 1900. Serge de Plaoutine was back in Russia in August 1918, because he was arrested by the Bolshevists on 01 Sep 1918 and confined in prison. He was not heard from after that time, and it was assumed that he died on 04 Sep 1918. His wife had actually gone to see the head of the Cheka, to inquire into the whereabouts of her husband, but was able to learn nothing. De Plaoutine was legally declared dead in the Probate Court in London on 28 Nov 1927.

Mrs. de Plaoutine had died at the family chateau in Nice in 1924. The daughter, Selina, went to London in 1921 and naturalized as a British citizen. She married George Neame in 1925. She died in England in 1951.

That is everything that I know, but I am really hoping that others will be able to add to this information. I have been working on some genealogy and just found a link to them, so it would be cool to know more. :) Thanks a lot!

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