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Messages - AGRBear

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The Imperial Family / Re: What got you interested in the Romanovs?
« on: June 22, 2004, 08:30:05 PM »
The year was about 1947 and I was about five years old.  It was a Sunday and several men had come to visit my grandfater and his brother, who was, also,  visiting.  They were speaking German with a sprinkle of  Russian.  Now, and then,  my grandfather would tell me a sentence or two in English to keep me from getting bored.  Then,  he pointed at one of the men.  He told me that the man had a story to tell me and that I was supose to pay attention and remember the story.  The man and I didn't stay with my grandfather or his brother,  we took a walk along the old country road.  The man and I chatted about little things. We walked into an  field where a large old oak had fallen.  I remember he had a German accent like my grandfather and brother.  When we reached the fallen tree,  he picked me up and sat me on the old trunk. Then, the man started his story.  He talked about a Kaiser Nicky, his wife and children.  I listened.  The man told a good story and in such a way a child as young as I was would and did remember.  When he was finished,  we walked back to my grandfather's house.  I was told to go inside and have some of my grandmother's coffee cake.  I didn't need to be told twice.

No one ever asked me about the story the man had told me.  I never mentioned it to my parents.  Neither my grandfather nor his brother ever asked me questions or ever reminded me to remember the man's story.

Years passed.  And, I had forgotten about the man and his story.  That is, until I was about fourteen....  

While I was in a high school  drama class,  our teacher handed out our next project.  Everyone was set into pairs and then he handed us play books with a marked section that we were to act. Each pair had scenes from different plays.   For whatever reason,  I was given the part of Anastasia and my counter part was given the part of the Dowager Empress.  The play was from the original screen play of Anatasia.   I had not seen the movie with Ingrid Bergman, which had just come out earlier that same year.   That night I read the play.  I couldn't believe what I was reading.  It was about a woman who claimed she was Anastasia, the youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II.  I rushed out to the kitchen where my mother was working and asked her about this women whom everyone knows, now, as Anna Anderson.  My mother explained what she knew from what she had read through the years.  And,  then I voiced, "But this isn't what hapen."  My mother wondered what on earth I was saying.  I told her about the man and his story and that Kaiser Nicky must have been Tsar Nicholas II....

My mother explained that German-Russians used the term Kaiser instead of Tsar or Emperor....

My ancestors were Germans who had migrated to Russia in the late 1700s or early 1800s then migrated to the USA in the late 1800s or early 1900s ....  The label given them was German-Russians.

My mother couldn't, however, explain why I was told what I was told and who it could have been that told me.  Her father had a great many friends.

So,  here I am, in my 60s, talking about this mystery man and his story on a computer with people I don't even know.  

Anyway,  that's how I became interested in Russia and the Last Tsar Nicholas II and his family.


Greg and Penny

Are you telling us the bodies were taken first to the Four Brother's Mines  then taken out of the mines and reburied at the Koptryaki grave?  If so, was it the same night / early morning of 17 July 1918?  


Greg:<<Incidentally, of the 103 possible shots, we calculated-based on wounds, statements, memoirs, forensics, and recovered evidence-that something like only 50 or so were fired-half were not, owing to the smoke and the chaos.>>

Penny<< ten minutes>>

There was mention of 103 possible shots by  ten, maybe eleven, shooters.  And, now, I've read  it took "ten minutes" to kill all those people who didn't want to be killed....

Is this really possible?  


In those days there was the press tracing a nobelman's every step and I think it's very possible GD Ernst took this trip to Russia.

A couple years ago while my husband and I were in Scotland,  I recall the Queen of England's hubby, Philip,  and one of their sons were secretly taking a day off and playing golf and were right behind my husband on the course.....   Now,  if I tried to prove this,  it would be impossible, even, now in this day and age.


The Hohenzollern / Frederick II "the Great"
« on: June 21, 2004, 06:39:29 PM »
King Frederick II "the Great" von Hohenzollern was a very interesting character in the history of Prussia.  

To start off this discussion I'll mentioned how Frederick II "the Great" touched the lives of all those who lived in Russia.  From what I understand,  it was he who convinced the mother of the future Russian Empress Catherine II "the Great" to go to Russia and meet Tsarina Elisabeth II who was looking for a wife for her nephew who would  become Peterr III.


Meanwhile, more questions with my other books as references:

In the hard cover edition, a map, following page 142 showed the "Ekaterinburg and alleged route to Four Brothers" where at that time the CHEKA and earlier books claim was the buriel grave.

According to what they found the route took them from the House of Special Purpose  gate on Vozenesensky Ave, turned right on Vozesensky St. and right on Glavnaya Streeet which was the road to Kotyaki village.  They show the Verkh-Isetsk Factory and show the train tracks line to Station No. 1. [ There isn't a mark showing distances.]    Also, their map shows the Four Brothers mine farther to the north and the tracks from Perm to Station No. 2.  According to Massie the Koptyaki grave was about 700 feet from the factory.  

How far from town is the factory?

Which track is closest to the Koptyaki grave?

Was is it east or west of the road to Koptaki Road?  

I guess I should ask if this map is  accurate?  

Did you conclude that one/ two or done of the bodies ever were thrown into the pit at the Four Brother's Mine area?  Or was just their clothing and other items that were destroyed at this spot?


Greg King and Penny Wilson:
Just bought your book through so I  can have an informed conversation about what you've written about the Romanovs lives and final days plus the dectective work of those dealing with the remains found in the shallow grave...  Hope to get it end of this week.  

By the way,  what label have you / others placed on the shallow grave near the Isetsk factory which was uncovered by Avdonin and Ryabov in May of 1979?   The reason I ask is because it was easy to remember the Four Brother's Mine as the place where people from 1918 to 1991 thought the royal family ashes were  held....  The "new grave"  isn't a good label. In fact it no longer is a grave but an empty piece of ground with a cross.....  The Koptyaki Pit  isn't quite accurate.  The empty grave near the Isetsk factory isn't a label people will remember.....  This may seem an odd question but I've been calling it the "shallow grave" and this doesn't really seem right either.


I had asked earlier about the bullets found in the shallow grave where the bones were found by Avdonin and Ryabov.  I found on p. 40 of Massie's Bk. that fourteen bullets were found.   What data has been released about the bullets?  Was there any that could have been shot from the Colt 45?


Greg King >> Cathy Oakes is indeed a world-famous hair and fiber specialist (and is now married to Dr. Levine) but she had little to do in Ekaterinburg as the Moscow team refused to provide her with any samples or even to tell her what their test results had been. <<

Do we know, now, what the test result is?


Massie mentioned some of the imposters in The Romanovs, The Final Chapter in Part II.
1.  Nadezhda Ivanova Vasilyeva died  in 1971 in a asylum in Riga
2.  Two women, real names uknown, however, know as Marie and Anastasia who died in the Urals in 1964
3. Filipp G.  Semyonov who was said to have hemophilia and claimed to have been Alexis
4. Marga Boodts who lived in Italy and claimed to be Olga
5. Larisa Feodorovna Tudor died 1927 and buried in Kent, England who claimed she was Tatiana.
6.  A man who  lived in Madrid as Prince Alexis d'Anjou whom some said was Alex Brimeyer.... died in Spain
7. Man, name unknown, claimed to be Alexis and lived in Ulm, Germany
8. Alexi Tammet-Romanov died in 1977 in Vancover, British Columbia
9.  Prince Alexis Romanov who died in 1986 and had lived in Scottsdale, Arizonia
10.  Another Alexis was said to have been assassinated in Chicago by the KGB...
11 & 12.   Two people who claimed to be Alexis and Anastasia met in USA and gained some attention by the press... names unknown
13.  Goleniewski died in 1993..
14. Eugenia Smith lived in Illinois then R.I. and Massie said was still living in 1995
15.  others ???
16. Anna Anderson (Manahan), who always had the most attention, died 1984, and whom many believe was a Polish peasant

Anyone have any other names?


While looking in the Masssie book to find information on Dr. Maples,  I found the following pages of 51-53 very interesting.  Massie stated  the Russians were offered one or both of our two primary US government teams on forensic and pathology  plus useage of our labs, instead the Russians chose Flordia U.'s forensic anthropologist Dr. Maples.  Flordia U.  didn't have the capability of doing mitochonrial DNA nor the use of the state-of-the -art equipment used by our own FBI.  Is this true?  If this is true, why did the Russians chose the labs which had less than the best?

I am not saying Maples isn't good at what he does.
Also, Maples apparently had a  good team.  Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City; Levin, the codirector with the New York State Police who had idenitifed the remains of  Josef Mengele in Brazil; and, Oaks who Massie claimed is one of our nation's leading hair and fiber specialists, also, from the New York State Police Crime Lab.


rskkiya : >> I am inclined to accept the DNA results and Dr Maple's statements regarding the execution. Surely he's not a Cheka agent<<

I do not know anything about Dr. Maple's. I assume he is not an agent.  My concern is the unknown evidence lost before all this became public  in 1991.

I, also, believe two bodies are missing.  Alexis and one of his sisters.  At this time, I can only assume the  bones  found were of Nicholas II, his wife, some of his children, the others ..... based on information given to us by those involved in the investigation.


Antonio __P. Cabiller:  >>
I´ve read that during the days following the murder there were warnings(?) from the bolsheviks , informing that a grand duchess had escaped and that there were many shootings in the city and searchings in hospitals looking for her.<<

In earlier books, there are various claims that the bolsheviks / CHEKAs were looking for members of the  Royal Family who had escaped and trains were stopped and searched.  Summers and Mangold in THE FILE ON THE TSAR talk about various stories / theories  about the escape of one or  escapes of all....


Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter<<

There are two lists?  The one I listed yesterday and the list you've mentioned.  Or are there others?

The list, of which you appear to have first hand knowledge,  which you and Penny Wilson have found in  records, letters, memoirs from some of these men,  you think /stated  should update / correct previous authors like Radzinsky.....  

[Sorry about mispellings Edward Radzinsky's name in my reply and for any other words then and in the future.]

Since I've not read FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  I assume all the old information gathered by earlier authors, officals and others hasn't been completely dismissed.  

Perhaps, if there were eleven,  the eleventh that might be aded to your list  was the second Medvedev mentioned on earlier lists....??

Reason I voiced "CHEKA claim" I assume Yourvsky, who was a CHEKA, claimed the credit of the execution,  for the CHEKA.  Did he not?  Far as I know the CHEKA were not just one ethnic group but a host of  different ethnic people who were  revolutionaries.


CHEKA Claims are:

According to Edvard Radzinsky's book, The Last Tsar, p. 341-2;
The shooters were and who was listed as their target:
1. Commandant Yakov Yurovsky - Tsaritsa
2. Peter Ermakov - Tsar
3. Nikulin Alexei - Marie
4. Mikhail Medvedev (Kudrin) - Tsar's daughter [not named]
5. Pavel Medvedev - daughter  [not named]
6-11. Latvians from the CHEKA - finished off the others

Photographs following page 366:

"Part of the assasination squad:  Nikolai Tolmachev, Alexander
Belborodov, Gregory Safarow and Filipp Goloshchekin"

According to Noble Frankland's book Imperial Tragedy he wrote p.  163 that Yourovsky executed the Tsar, who died instantly, then he shot Alexis...  Didn't die immediately and he was shot again...  "The other men, some of them wildly, shot at the other prisioners."

Edvard Radzinsky wrote about Yurovsky and Ermakov both claiming to have shot the Tsar.

Robert Massie in his book The Romanovs, The Final  Chapter:
pps. 4-6:

Massie's remarks about the shooters were:  "Five, like Yurovsky, were Russians, six were Latvains.  Earlier,
two Latvians had refused to shoot the young women and Yurovsky had replaced them with two others."  He went on to say that Yourovsky with a Colt shot the Tsar...   Then Massie went on to say the others, each who had been appointed whom to shot, started shooting....  There is the claim all died in the basement room.

So, according to most who write about the night of 16/17 July 1918 there were eleven shooters?

Corrections?  Additions?


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