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Messages - Janet Ashton

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1
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 23, 2017, 07:23:20 AM »
That does not mean that all those conclusions are equally valid.

In the case of Princip, as Christopher Clark himself says, "given the complexity and secrecy of the groups involved and the paucity of reliable sources, there will always be room for debate" about his motivations.

I study what happened in Sarajevo on 28 June 1914 and reach the conclusion that Gavrilo Princip was a POS who murdered in cold blood a man and a woman who deeply loved each other, left three children orphaned and provoked what was then the worst carnage in human history.

The President of Serbia studies what happened in Sarajevo on 28 June 1914 and reaches the conclusion that Gavrilo Princip is a Serbian hero who deserves a monument in Belgrade.

Obviously, quite different conclusions.

And what do *I* think?

I find it curious that in all this debate you haven't once asked me for my views or sought to address them with any evidence.


2
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 23, 2017, 03:23:32 AM »

Cristopher Clark's book is excellent and "does not read history backwards". It reads history forwards, from the murder of King Alexandra and Queen Draga in Belgrade 1903 to the start of WWI. If it has been criticised is, I guess, because it shatters the myth of "brave, little Serbia attacked by the Austrian bully" and "gallant Serbia, defender of Christian civilization in the Balkans".Obviously Serbs and their allies do not like it, neither people that wish to agree with the Treaty of Versailles in blaming exclusively "Germany and her allies" for WWI.

I can assure you that people are capable studying the motivation of Princip and colleagues from a completely different perspective. And of reaching quite different conclusions. You seem to be blinded by the Kingdom of Serbia. Not sure why you feel the need to make these sweeping comments impugning the motivation/objectivity of anyone who disagrees with you. Have you ever been to Bosnia? Did you live there in the 1990s? It's remarkable that you think people could see that first hand and emerge with the motivation you imagine.

3
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 22, 2017, 03:36:57 PM »


It seems there are many people who do not realise how little things change in centuries in some parts of the world. The Balkans will always consider Turks as oppressors no matter the date. Glad to know there are countries that have the best relations with their neighbours, but these countries are not in the Balkans.



I realize that some things do not change in some places. Reading about the ethnic cleansing committed by Serbs in Macedonia in 1913 reminds anyone the ethnic cleansing committed by Serbs in Bosnia in the early 1990s.

It does not have to be that way. People usually get over things that happened centuries before they were born. For example, the British had Joan of Arc burned at the stake 585 years ago and French do not use as a excuse to plot the murder of visiting British Prime Ministers or to loot the houses that British have bought in Provence, killing the men and raping the women in the process. That's a feature of what is usually called "civilization".



Folks, what no-one here has yet mentioned is that while the Battle of Kosovo may have taken place in 1389, the territory the Ottomans occupied as a result remained in their control until the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. So while people may have been looking to a medieval event as a symbol, it was a symbol with a lot of modern resonance.

I don't think that bringing Britain into this as a counter example is very useful, because let's not forget Norther Ireland, and the active grudges many people bear over battles which took place hundreds of years ago.

Serbia has a *lot* of issues as nation state, but to hold it up as a perennial "special case" of particularly obnoxious nationalism is not helpful to anyone. We also need not to read history backwards from the events of the 1990s to what happened in 1914. Christopher Clark's book has ben criticised for doing just that.

4
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 22, 2017, 03:27:38 PM »

I did not write that nationalist myths are irrelevant. I wrote that a multi-etnic empire, which had to keep nationalism in check for its own survival and for the safety of its subjects, did not have to bow to them. The Austro-Hungarian Empire included Serbian and Muslim subjects. Muslims were being killed by Serbs in recently-annexed Macedonia. Honouring the myths used by radicals to fuel the flames of hate was not the way.



The Austro-Hungarian empire was not as sensitive to the dangers of nationalism as you are arguing. I think some people could see the problem spiralling out of control - Franz Joseph and *perhaps* Franz Ferdinand, who both had particular animus against both German and Hungarian nationalism. But the very existence of the dual empire was in itself predicated on Hungarian nationalism of what became a particularly repressive kind. If the Austrian ruling class could see this, the Hungarians clearly couldn't. And, passive as it was, the Austrian side of the empire continued to maintain the dominance of the German language to an unbalanced extent - to the extent that grammar schools could bring down the government. It was, I agree, much better than many of its peers - and we tend to look back on it with nostalgia, as did its subjects later - but it was not the perfect multi-ethnic state. Multi-ethnic by accident, not design. And its development was patchy, geographically if not ethnically. The south slav states Bosnia and Dalmatia (with Galicia, a less recent acquisition) were the poorest parts.

That is by the by, just posted because I like robust debate! :-) Among the men who killed Franz Ferdinand was one Muslim. To this little group, religion was infinitely less an issue than the question of foreign repression. To ethnic Serbs (as we are not talking about the State of Serbia), the Kosovo/Vidovdan meme became an anti-occupation one - whoever the occupier. It was not anti-muslim. They grossly and fatally overplayed this when the south slav state became a reality, in assuming that others (the Habsburg slavs) would take their national day to their hearts, but part of the reason why it became an issue for the Catholic slavs was the death of Franz Ferdinand on that day. In 1914, the day was far less charged to Austrian subjects. In 1921, actually, the one ally Serbia had in approving the Vidovdan constitution were the Bosnian muslims, because it was a secular constitution - which protected the muslims against the near-pogroms taking place in parts of the countryside.

I'd say again, though, that it doesn't matter. By refusing to side-step the day - or even to try to turn it to their own benefit by emphasising that Bosnia had joined Austria in escaping the Ottoman empire - they lost their crown prince.

5
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 20, 2017, 06:04:29 PM »

The predatory intentions of Austria towards Slav countries in the Balkans in Serbian or Russian history books are just a projection of Serbian intentions, their Greater Serbia project. Austria did NOT want to annex Serbia and the Hungarians, who had a say on that matter, even less so. Franz Ferdinand is quoted as saying that annexing Serbia would only add "one more pile of thieves, murderers and rascals, plus a few plum trees" to the Empire.


Franz Conrad von Hotzendorf thought differently, and was certainly in favour of wrapping both Serbia and Montenegro into a "Greater Croatia" - it was his aim in 1915-16 when the two were defeated. They were flip sides of the same issue; the same nationalist theories.

Conrad was a soldier. The decision on a settlement in peacetime would not depend on him.

Could you explain me what kind of nationalism was supported in 1914 by the Austro-Hungarian authorities, who ruled an empire whose raison d'etre was checking nationalism in Central Europe?



Ah, so we can ignore Conrad, and his influence and that of the military. But we can take Franz Ferdinand's personal view (insofar as known) as indicative of that of "the state".

I'm curious - are you aware of the Austro-Slav movement? And have you heard of the Party of Right? Not that the government necessarily supported this (though many hoped that Franz Ferdinand did), but I think it gives a little nuance to the picture you are painting. You cite endless examples of the instability and turbulence of contemporary Serbian history, while contending that the Habsburg authorities had the right to simply ignore this, and to send their crown prince headlong into it.

It matters not whether Austria intended to swallow Serbia. It matters whether people in Serbia thought they did. But mostly what matters HERE is whether - as I posted, and it was all I posted - anyone had the right to simply wave the issue away, as you contended.

6
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 20, 2017, 05:45:45 PM »

OK, let's remember some facts to keep the discussion in focus.

1. The Battle of Kosovo (field) took place in 1389. That is, in 1914 it had happened 525 years ago.
The Battle of El Alamo ended on 6 March 1836. That is, "only" 181 years ago next March. Should Mexicans who live in Texas have to stay indoors on that anniversary?

2. In the Battle of Kosovo Serbs fought against the Turks. Franz Ferdinand was not a Turk.

3. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had never waged a war on Serbia.

4. Bosnia had come under Austro-Hungarian rule as the result of a treaty, not by conquest.

So, again, why should the Austro-Hungarian authorities have honoured an old myth used by Serb nationalists to justify hate and violence? On this point, the subsequent history of the 20th century has completely vindicated the Austro-Hungarian Empire. On 28 June 1989, when tension between the Muslim and the Serbian population in Kosovo ran high, Miloshevich (Milosevic)  visited the Kosovo field and from a tribune pronounced a speech to a million man crowd in which he played the usual themes of Serbian victimhood, Serbia as defender of civilization and did not rule out the possibility of "armed battles" in the future. I think we all know what happened in Bosnia few years afterwards.

So in ceding that Kosovo had power to evoke sentiment into the 1990s (and it does now; you can follow the comments on any online article on Serbian history should you care. And have you read about the train?!), you charge that it was irrelevant in 1914, when Bosnia was - in the view of of many of its people, a good number of whom actually moved to Serbia - an occupied state? That it was OK for the Austrian military to blithely dismiss this and send the Heir to the Throne to face it?

"facts" (as you or Christopher Clark perceive them) are not the issue. Emotions are. And a responsible government takes care not to inflame them.

7
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 20, 2017, 05:31:17 PM »

Could you tell me what is the purpose of a multi-ethnic state?

I will propose this: prevent neighbours of different ethnic groups from butchering each other, provide a fair legal system and efficient administration for all subjects (citizens), foment economic development in all the regions of that empire (state) and tolerate the different religions and cultures within its territory.

If we accept those criteria for evaluation and we are objective, we would have to admit that the Austria-Hungarian Empire deserves much better marks than any other contemporary empire: the British, the French, the German, the Russian... or the American. Certainly much, much better marks than its southern neighbour, the Kingdom of Serbia.

I'd say I was pretty objective. I feel pretty dispassionate. I have written on the Austrian role in world war one from several sides and can appreciate the perspective of many of those involved. But mainly I see the situation of the common man charged to actually fight it. And the people in the crossfire.

You have said that the Austrian authorities had no need at all to care about the meaning of Kosovo to some of their subjects. I am not sure how this squares with your subsequent claim that it was a successful multi-ethnic state which prevented people from butchering each other. In fact, in the aftermath of Sarajevo, that's exactly what they did.

8
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 19, 2017, 04:52:32 PM »

Regarding St. Vitus' day, Franz Ferdinand travelled to Bosnia to inspect military exercises that routinely took place in summer. It was not for the Austrian army to coordinate its calendar with Serbian mythology.

Really?! :)
Given that  a substantial proportion of the population of Bosnia self-identified as ethnic Serb, it would, at the very worst, had displayed a certain sense of self-preservation - and concern for the life of their future Emperor - had they bothered to note the date. At best, it would have been a gesture of sensitivity towards their Serb subjects. The symbolism of Kosovo Polje was cultivated strongly among Serbs who had been Ottoman subjects (a topic Austrians and particularly Hungarians might have had some empathy with); it was not limited to the national state of Serbia.

Any state acting with the crass arrogance and insensitivity you attribute seems to me to be unfit for purpose.

The predatory intentions of Austria towards Slav countries in the Balkans in Serbian or Russian history books are just a projection of Serbian intentions, their Greater Serbia project. Austria did NOT want to annex Serbia and the Hungarians, who had a say on that matter, even less so. Franz Ferdinand is quoted as saying that annexing Serbia would only add "one more pile of thieves, murderers and rascals, plus a few plum trees" to the Empire.



Franz Conrad von Hotzendorf thought differently, and was certainly in favour of wrapping both Serbia and Montenegro into a "Greater Croatia" - it was his aim in 1915-16 when the two were defeated. They were flip sides of the same issue; the same nationalist theories.

9
Blog entry I've written for work on Aylmer Maude, one of the loudest voices in our book!

http://blogs.bl.uk/european/2016/09/tolstoys-translator-a-brief-life-of-aylmer-maude.html

posted in honour of Tolstoy's birthday on 9th September.

This one include images of his book on the coronation.

10
Our pleasure, Tim!

Here are the final set of extracts, drawn from the epilogue which looks at the later lives and fates of all our participants, and also at the aftermath of Khodynka, the official enquiries into what had gone wrong, and the reality of Nicholas's pledge to compensate the victims.

https://coronationofnicholasii.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/extracts-from-our-epilogue/

11
And here, in our final chapter, Nicholas and Alexandra and their guests move on autopilot through many more days of celebration, as the coronation draws to its close: -

https://coronationofnicholasii.wordpress.com/2016/09/06/extracts-from-chapter-twelve/

12
Bear in mind that Nicholas succeeded in November 1894, and a year of official morning then followed. Coronations don't tend to be scheduled in winter.

Yes, spot on - once they were through the mourning, they had to wait for decent weather. It was touch and go until the days or two before the coronation, when terrible weather symbolically gave way to wonderful sunshine. But in the days after the coronation the heat grew more and more oppressive, and you can imagine what it was like to be in a city where hundreds of bodies lay unburied in the heat while many more went about their own duties almost like zombies themselves, intoxicated (but not always in a good way) by the atmosphere and revolted by the never-ending tables of rich food.

On that note, chapter eleven brings us to the day of Khodynka: -

https://coronationofnicholasii.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/extracts-from-chapter-eleven/

13
Speaking of Khodynka.....
Chapter ten opens with the sense of anti-climax that envelopes the city when the coronation is over. But the most memorable of days have yet to come. As Nicholas cringes at the domestic dramas epitomised by his former mistress's starring role in the Coronation Gala, a far larger tragedy is starting to unfold elsewhere in the city, its real-life theme of peasant sacrifice far eclipsing that of the coronation's leitmotif opera, "A Life for the Tsar."

https://coronationofnicholasii.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/extracts-from-chapter-ten/

14
I agree that a memorial service was an obvious and proper thing.

Any indication as to who talked Nicholas out of it, and on what basis?

Ann

"The uncles" felt that a service would detract from the "joyous" celebrations, and that Nicholas's visit to the hospital was enough to show sympathy. I don't think they really needed to do much talking him out of it, since nothing even got as far as the planning stage. When KR suggested such a service, Nicholas did not even reply. At every point, he was trying to avoid hectoring from his uncles. (Ella's enthusiastic espousal of her husband's viewpoint also throws a darker light on her character at this point in her life.)
It's interesting, on the other hand, to note how conservative Russia, as epitomised by senior officials and right-wing journalists like Alexei Suvorin, reacted to his decision. Many reactions were not what you'd expect.

15
Chapter Nine covers the second part of coronation day, as Nicholas is crowned and the onlooking world forms its own, various views of the young couple at the centre of everything. Dinner and public appearances follow, and there are some deliberate departures from convention in the name of increasing the imperial regime's visibility or popularity, as Mandell Creighton, Bishop of Peterborough, learns....

https://coronationofnicholasii.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/extracts-from-chapter-nine/

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