76
The Windsors / Re: A new claiment: Secret love child of Princess Louise.
« on: November 16, 2013, 09:54:23 AM »
Yes, I thought that was a ( pregnant? ) Alice in that pic too.
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77
The Windsors / Re: Prince William and Catherine, Duke and Duchess of Cambridge
« on: October 23, 2013, 10:08:42 AM »
Aaww sweet little chubby chops.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24642388
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24642388
78
The Tudors / The King in the car park and any other documentaries seen on TV
« on: October 22, 2013, 10:17:06 AM »
This is to replace Rosieposie's previous topic which disappeared when my finger hit a wrong button...sorry.
Anyway Rosieposie asked wether anyone has seen this documentary ( it was screened in the UK much earlier in the year).
This thread is therefore open for us to discuss ANY relevent and hopefully interesting documentaries seen.
Last night there was an excellent docu. about Richard III's chapel at Towton, built to commemorate the fallen at Towton.
I have only just started to watch it ( then life got in the way of pleasure ! ) and when I have finished I will post a bit about it.
Thanks and I have apologised to Rosieposie by PM :-)
Anyway Rosieposie asked wether anyone has seen this documentary ( it was screened in the UK much earlier in the year).
This thread is therefore open for us to discuss ANY relevent and hopefully interesting documentaries seen.
Last night there was an excellent docu. about Richard III's chapel at Towton, built to commemorate the fallen at Towton.
I have only just started to watch it ( then life got in the way of pleasure ! ) and when I have finished I will post a bit about it.
Thanks and I have apologised to Rosieposie by PM :-)
79
Welcome New Users! Read 1st please. / Re: Anyone watch Richard III: King in the carpark on SBS?
« on: October 20, 2013, 08:33:42 AM »
Yep, it screened in the UK a while ago. Did you notice ( I think it was Jo Appleby, osteologist) swinging that mattock through the skull.......mind boggling.
Poor old Philippa Langley got a lot of criticism too for her somewhat "over the top" behaviour.
Nice to see John Ashdown Hill on the screen, he has just been awarded Fellow of the Royal Historical Society I believe.
Poor old Philippa Langley got a lot of criticism too for her somewhat "over the top" behaviour.
Nice to see John Ashdown Hill on the screen, he has just been awarded Fellow of the Royal Historical Society I believe.
80
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 12, 2013, 04:01:39 PM »
Well Eric, sounds like you should meet Anne and me..:-), we are very "normal".
81
The Tudors / Re: Henry VIII's wives and their physical attributes
« on: October 12, 2013, 01:43:11 PM »
Off topic I know but further to above, Glenda Jackson had her head shaved for the role of Elizabeth R.
82
The Tudors / Re: Henry VIII's wives and their physical attributes
« on: October 12, 2013, 08:07:44 AM »
she had hair :-) modesty demanded that it be covered for the most part.
Your assessment of the various wives and their beauty (or not) had me giggling Selencia. Jane's ( who, it is on record, is not my favourite!!) portrait is probably the most unappealing I agree. But standards of beauty were very diferent then. The ideal was fair (white to the point of transparency) complexion with preferably blue eyes and blonde hair, oh and not forgetting the rosebud mouth. The height of fashion was a high forehead ( with the hair regularly plucked away to accentuate this) and extremely plucked eyebrows almost to the point of invisibility. Somewhat different to the "scouse brow" that is so of the moment amongst some ( here in the UK ).
By the by, Katherine Parr had very pretty darkish blonde hair, there is a lock of it in Sudeley Castle......along with a tooth!
Your assessment of the various wives and their beauty (or not) had me giggling Selencia. Jane's ( who, it is on record, is not my favourite!!) portrait is probably the most unappealing I agree. But standards of beauty were very diferent then. The ideal was fair (white to the point of transparency) complexion with preferably blue eyes and blonde hair, oh and not forgetting the rosebud mouth. The height of fashion was a high forehead ( with the hair regularly plucked away to accentuate this) and extremely plucked eyebrows almost to the point of invisibility. Somewhat different to the "scouse brow" that is so of the moment amongst some ( here in the UK ).
By the by, Katherine Parr had very pretty darkish blonde hair, there is a lock of it in Sudeley Castle......along with a tooth!
83
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 12, 2013, 07:51:21 AM »Eric
Incidentally, what is the source for Cecily's marriage to Scrope?
Ann
I cannot answer for Eric :-) but this has picqued my interest.
According to Baldwin ( Elizabeth Woodville, mother of the Princes in the Tower), Ralph Scrope of Upsall was first husband to Cecily who then went on to marry John, Viscount Welles and thirdly, Thomas Kyne of Friskey.
Alison Weir's Britain's Royal families, ( my copy is quite old ) notes that Cecily had only 2 husbands, Welles and Kyne.
The Scrope family page shows that Ralph was married to a certain Eleanor Windsor and elsewhere it is suggested that Eleanor is in fact his 2nd wife having had the previous marriage to Cecily dissolved.
Cecily was buried in Quarr Abbey, Isle of Wight which was lost following the Dissolution. However, there is record of a tomb found in a church ( St Alkmund) in Shropshire which was described as white marble and inscribed "one Lady Scroop, Daughter of K Edward. This church collapsed into ruin in 1711.
84
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 12, 2013, 07:32:58 AM »
Anne, absolutely with you on this and I am in the same camp as you. As with any "interest group" you will get the fanatics, amusingly, the Ricardian variety seem to be pictured among some as wild-haired, tweed wearing matrons with a faint whiff of mothballs and cat pee. I do think that the vast majority of "Ricardians" believe that Richard was a "flawed" human being....after all, who of us isn't?
The Richard III Society is very much a scholarly institution which promotes research into the life and times of the man himself and it is open to anyone to join ( and no, I am not a recruitment officer :-) ).
That seems pretty rational to me Eric, after all, if we all thought that Richard was whiter than white or blacker than black, there would be very little if any, discussion at all.
( reason for edit...spelling error).
The Richard III Society is very much a scholarly institution which promotes research into the life and times of the man himself and it is open to anyone to join ( and no, I am not a recruitment officer :-) ).
That seems pretty rational to me Eric, after all, if we all thought that Richard was whiter than white or blacker than black, there would be very little if any, discussion at all.
( reason for edit...spelling error).
85
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 11, 2013, 02:15:02 AM »
It is not a " cheap shot" at all , neither is it discourteous of me. I have already suggested Helmholz and as for Eleanor Talbot there is a book out there written by John Ashdown-Hill..
" Eleanor, the Secret Queen; the woman who put Richard III on the throne".
In the UK , Wikipedia is very much frowned on regarding academic studies and there are "students" who read this forum as FA tells us.
I have read several books written by Michael Hicks, in fact I am looking at his "Anne Neville" right now. While I do not agree with his casting of Richard as a "serial incestor" it is an absolutely excellent resource for the explanation on degrees of affinity and such like.
I make no apology for being a "Ricardian" but I do not see Richard as a "whiter than white knight in shining armour", rather, he was a typical medieval King who was just as bloody as the rest of them.
" Eleanor, the Secret Queen; the woman who put Richard III on the throne".
In the UK , Wikipedia is very much frowned on regarding academic studies and there are "students" who read this forum as FA tells us.
I have read several books written by Michael Hicks, in fact I am looking at his "Anne Neville" right now. While I do not agree with his casting of Richard as a "serial incestor" it is an absolutely excellent resource for the explanation on degrees of affinity and such like.
I make no apology for being a "Ricardian" but I do not see Richard as a "whiter than white knight in shining armour", rather, he was a typical medieval King who was just as bloody as the rest of them.
86
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 10, 2013, 03:17:18 PM »
Aahhhh Wikipedia .......so nothing scholarly then :-)
87
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 10, 2013, 01:41:04 PM »
" Most historians except Ricardians"........really Eric, where is your source for this statement !
88
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 09, 2013, 02:00:30 PM »
R.H Helmholz is an authority on medieval canon law.
Can I direct you to:
"The sons of Edward IV. A Canonical Assessment to the Claim that they were Illegitimate".
Can I direct you to:
"The sons of Edward IV. A Canonical Assessment to the Claim that they were Illegitimate".
89
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 09, 2013, 11:08:59 AM »The problem was that Elizabeth was NOT a bastard. She was only declared that by her uncle to justify his upsurging the throne from her brother Edward. The people of England were not convinced of that and they missed Edward IV and his jolly court with the beautiful queen and many children. That was the reason the Tudors had such an easy job in demonizing Richard III, his actions weren't so different that Henry IV. But the victim here wasn't a disgraced king (Richard II) but a widow and her young children. Richard III would never be popular under such circumstances. If Elizabeth Woodville & her daughter did not took the situation lying down (plotting with Margaret Beaufort etc), who could blame them. The evidence on Eleanor Butler was flimsy to say the least...It was thus poetic justice that Richard III's name was dragged in the mud (when he did the same to his brother).
The problem here with Edward's marriage is two fold.
1 There was a contract of marriage between himself and Eleanor Talbot....... A spoken vow of "I will marry you, now lets hop into bed". Although there is now no proof of this, it is irrelevant BECAUSE;
2. The marriage between Edward and Elizabeth WAS ILLEGAL - clandestine in that it was held in private, with few witnesses, there were no Banns called and the King's ministers were not involved.
According to canon law, this clandestine marriage on its own was enough for it to have been no marriage and the children, according to the law of the church, to be illegitimate.
If the Banns had been called then any impediment to their marriage could have been investigated and removed ( i.e. the Butler pre contract ).
90
The Tudors / Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« on: October 09, 2013, 08:03:12 AM »
We also need to bear in mind that Elizabeth was a bastard. Richard would surely have to legitimize her before he married her.
There were negotiations with Portugal regarding the marriage of Richard to Joanna of Portugal and the marriage of Elizabeth and a Portuguese prince.
There were negotiations with Portugal regarding the marriage of Richard to Joanna of Portugal and the marriage of Elizabeth and a Portuguese prince.