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Messages - aron

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Iberian Royal Families / Re: Kings of Castile
« on: October 20, 2005, 04:48:23 AM »
The children of Alfonso VIII (1155-1214)

González, Julio. El reino de Castilla en la época de Alfonso VIII.
1. Berenguela b. Segovia 1180 d. Burgos 8.11.1246
2. Sancho b. Burgos 05.04.1181- d. july 1181
3. Sancha b. (before 20.03)1182- d. (before 03.02.)1184
4. Enrique b. 1183-d.1183
5. Fernando b. 1184- d. bet 1187/1189
6. Urraca b. (before 28.05.)1187- d. 02.11.1220
7. Blanca b. (before march)1188- d. Paris 27.11.1252
8. Fernando b. Cuenca 29.11.1189-d. Madrid 14.10.1211
9. Mafalda b. 1191- d. Salamanca 1204
10. Constanza b. ca 1195- d. Las Huelgas 07.09.1242
11. Leonor b. ca 1200- d. Las Huelgas 1244
12. Enrique b. 14.04.1204- d. 06.06.1217

Anyone more info/details?

Some historians say that Elizabeth did had a son named Edward. Elizabeth, while pregnant, was so shocked by the death of the younger Elizabeth in 1495 that she had a miscarriage/still birth. Perhaps this child was the so called Edward.

Let us see:
Elizabeth lost: Arthur, Edward, Edmund, Elizabeth and Katherine. That makes 5.
Perhaps the statement about Isabel I is true.

Strange, the children and miscarriage of Joana of Portugal, wife of Enrique IV are recorded and the pregnancies of Isabel not.

The miscarriage is also from internet, don't know anymore which site and google doesn;t give a hit for this event.
Strange that the pregnancies of Isabel are not recorded.

Umigon, thank you, for translating this.
So far, we do have 9 pregnancies for Isabel. Some sources aren't very reliable.

1. Isabel, 1470.

2. Miscarried son, 1475.

3. Juan, 1478.

4. Juana, 1479.

5+6. María and a stillborn twin sister, 1482.

7. miscarriage 1484

8. Catalina, 1485.

9. Another miscarriage (what sex?), 1490

San Sebastián.

   En el tiempo en que los RRCC tomaban Setenil, o, poco después, alrededor del año 1484, se dice que la Reina Isabel, tuvo un aborto de pocos meses. Los RRCC tenían el campamento a las afueras del pueblo, donde hoy día está el cementerio. La leyenda cuenta que en una de las tiendas de campaña ahí montadas, la Reina abortó. Es por eso por lo que se cree que los RRCC decidieron construir una iglesia en nombre de su hijo Sebastián, de ahí el nombre de la ermita. En ningún libro se hace constar nada de un aborto o hijo de la reina que muriera, por eso esto se conoce sólo por las gentes de Setenil, transmitido de sus antepasados.

Umignon, can you translate this?
It seems that Isabel had another miscarriage in 1484

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Queens of Castile
« on: October 09, 2005, 01:50:05 PM »
see also:

Also remember that Alfonso VI was a king without a male heir. Even though he had the mistress Ximena/Jimena Munoz, she had only born him only daughters, Elvirs and Teresa. He also had a legitimate daughter, Urraca. So it was partly because of the very real threat of invasion by Arab Spain that Alfonso accepted Zaida as a mistress in 1092. She was the widow of Fath al-Mamun of Cordoba (who died in March of the previous year), daughter-in-law of al-Mutamid of Sevilla. . Importantly, Zaida became the mother of Alfonso's only son, Sancho, who would eventually be named his heir, in spite of his being illegitimate. Bishop Pelayo's chronicle (already quoted in the last post), states that she was baptized and given the Christian name Elizabeth (which was then equivalent to Isabel). . Zaida's monumental inscription states that she died on 13 [or 12, depending on the source] September in childbirth, but the year of her death does not survive. Thus the controversy. Levi-Provencal had concluded that she died during the birth of her son Sancho, on 12 September 1093. . But if you equate Zaida with Queen Elizabeth, who did not die until 1107, you arrive at a death date of 12/13 September 1107 (hence the varying dating given by different authorities). It is known that Queen Elizabeth was the mother of two daughters, and that Zaida was mother of Alfonso's only son. So if you equate the two women, it means she was mother of three children. But as she may not have died in 1093, the birth date of Zaida's son Sancho is problematic too. . There isn't enough surviving evidence to resolve these disputes. Different scholars interpret the evidence in different ways. BUT there is NO dispute that Teresa was Ximena's daughter, not a daughter of Zaida or Elizabeth (Reedpcgen) posted to on 15 Dec 1998 Subject: Re: Descent of Spanish Kings from Zaida: . "Christian Settipani was kind enough to bring to my attention a recent article by Jaime de Salazar y Acha, "Contribucion al estudio del reinado de Alfonso VI de Castilla: algunas aclaraciones sobre su politica matrimonal," Anales de la Real Academia Matritense de Heraldica y Genealogia, 2 (1992/3), pp. 299-343, sp. p. 323-8. . Though I have not seen this article, it is a long one, and if I understand correctly, he carefully examined all arguments for the different positions, both pro and con, and concludes without any hesitation that Zaida is Queen Isabel

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Queens of Castile
« on: October 09, 2005, 01:46:57 PM »
Zaida died in september 1093 or september 1103.
Source for this is Reilly's book: Alfonso VI.

In this book there is no mention of an incestious affair. But again, perhaps your source is a better one.

Jimena, wife of El Cid:
She was descended from the Kings of Leon.
Alfonso V of Leon, married Urraca Garcez de Navarra, daughter: Ximena Alfonsez de Leon born ca 1020
Ximena Alfonsez de Leon married Fernan Gondemarez, Conde de Asturias, daughter: Cristina Fernandez born ca 1038
Cristina Fernandez married Diego de Oviedo, Conde de Oviedo e Asturias, daughter: Ximena (Jimena) de Oviedo born ca 1058
Ximena (Jimena) de Oviedo married Rodrigo de Vivar, El Cid. Rey de Valencia.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Queens of Castile
« on: October 09, 2005, 07:23:53 AM »
      Inés of Aquitaine (1052-1097), first wife of Alfonso VI. Married  1069, anullment in 1077.
·      Constanza of Burgundy (1046-1093), second wife of Alfonso VI. Married 1081, mother of Queen Urraca I.
·      Berta of Burgundy (1080-1097), third wife of Alfonso VI. Marrried in 1093.
·      Isabel of Aquitaine (1074-1104), fourth wife of Alfonso VI. Married in 1097.
·      Beatriz of Sicily (1090-1110), fifth wife of Alfonso VI. Married in 1108.

The list above is full with speculations.
Ines (Agnes) was born in 1059 (her parents married in 1058) and lived well after 1110. She remarried with Elias, Comte du Maine.

His first marriage was to Agnes of Aquitaine in 1069. He repudiated her, apparently after 27 June 1080, and on 8 May 1081 he was remarried to Constance of Burgundy.
Prior to this, he is reported by Orderic (IIRC) to have been espoused to
Agatha, daughter of William the Conqueror, but she was so aghast at marrying a barbarian that she died in a funk prior to the wedding - that is the Agatha above.

During this time he had as mistress a lady named
Jimena Munoz.  Queen Constance was dead before 22 November 1093 and in December 1094

After the death of Constance, Alfonso married Berta, whose background is not definitely  known (it has been conjectured that she was a daughter of Margrave Azzo II of Este by Gersende of Maine). Berta died on 25 January 1100.
Other sources say that Berthe was:
Berta de Bourgogne, was a sister of the same Raimond de Bourgogne who married Urraca I, and was probably born about the year 1070.
Berthe d'Aquitaine, halfsister of the Agnes above. Since Agnes was divorced because she was to strong related to Alfonso VI, it would be strange that Berthe would descent from the same family.

After Berta's death Alfonso may have married his mistress Zaida-Isabella. If so, she died before him as he
later had a wife named Beatrice, about whose background nothing is recorded

Zaida, baptized as Isabella, was the mother of
Sancho, illegitimate son of King Alfonso, born during his marriage to
Bertha, as you have indicated.  Sancha and Elvira, however, are reported
as legitimate daughters of Alfonso, born by his wife Queen Isabella (by
the same source that names Zaida - it names his wives and thir children
including Isabella having Elvira and Sancha, and it then names his
mistresses and their children, including Zaida/Isabella having Sancho,
without giving any indication that the two were the same woman).  It is
only if Queen Isabella was identical to Zaida/Isabella that these
Infantas are full siblings of Sancho.

Alfonso married _an_ Isabella in 1102, and she appears as queen in 17
documents through 1106.  Her (apparently non-contemporary) funerary
stone calls her daughter of Louis of France (hence she is the 'Elizabeth
of France' named above, Isabella and Elizabeth being alternative forms
of the same name), but this is chronologically impossible as well as
there being no French mention of this seemingly noteworthy union.  It
has been suggested that she may have been Louis' god-daughter.  Again,
Burgundy and Aquitaine have been tapped as possible origins.  Likewise,
it has been suggested that she might have been Zaida.

In yet another hypothesis, based on a document of Mar. 1106 which
reports "regnante rege illdefonso in legione eiusdemque helisabet regina
sub maritali copula legaliter aderente" suggested to Reilly that the
king had recently married a former mistress, and thus there were two
successive Isabellas: first the 'Queen Isabella', mother of the two
daughters, married in 1102, then Zaida/Isabella - the Helisabet of 1106.
  However, this explanation requires a divorce from one Isabella to
marry the other (perhaps) as the 'French' Isabella is said to have died
in 1107 (on the same memorial stone that makes her daughter of Louis).

In November of 1107 (a corrupt and poorly dated document), an Isabella
last appears as queen.  Beatrice was queen by May, 1108.  She is said to
be French by a late writer, and a near-contemporary indicates that she
survived Alfonso and went back to her home country.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Queens of Castile
« on: October 09, 2005, 07:08:49 AM »
Urraca and Elvira were sometimes called Queens of Toro and Zamora. They conspired with their favourite brother Alfonos VI against the other two brothers in order to gain more land, wealth and status.
They certainly didn't have an incestous relationship with Alfonso, because ifso it would be mentioned in the annals of that period. He was just their partner in crime.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Monarchs of Navarre
« on: October 07, 2005, 05:42:03 PM »
Joan II of Navarre (1311–1349), was Queen of Navarre 1328–1349. She was the only daughter of King Louis X of France (I of Navarre) and his first wife, Margaret of Burgundy.

On the death of her father (in 1316) and half-brother, John I (also 1316), who were kings of both France and Navarre, she was excluded from their succession, mostly because of doubts about her paternity. Her uncles, King Philip V of France (II of Navarre) and King Charles IV of France (I of Navarre), took precedence over the young girl on the Navarrese throne, even though it was inheritable by females. With regards to the French crown, several legal reasons were invoked by Philip V and later by Philip VI of France to bar her from the succession, such as proximity in kinship to Louis IX of France. Later, the Salic Law was construed as the reason.

After Charles IV of France died in 1328, she became Queen of Navarre through a treaty with the new king, Philip VI of France, who was not an immediate descendant of the Kings of Navarre. In the treaty, she had to renounce her rights to the crown of France, and her grandmother's estates in Brie and Champagne (which were put into the French royal domain). In compensation, she received the counties of Angoulême and Mortain as well as a portion of Cotentin (Longueville). Later on she exchanged Angouleme for three estates in Vexin:- Pontoise, Beaumont-sur-Oise, and Asnière-sur-Oise. She thus lost France. But her descendants returned to the throne of France when Henry IV of France inherited the crown two centuries later, in 1589.

She reigned as queen until her death in 1349, together with her husband, Philip III of Navarre as king consort, 1329–1343. Philip was also Count of Évreux, the heir of Count Louis of Évreux (youngest son of Philip III of France), and thus of Capetian male blood. Because of his patrimonial lands, together with Joan's gains in Normandy and her rights in Champagne, the couple had extensive possessions in Northern France.

Altogether, Joan and Philip had 8 children; they are listed in the entry for Philip III of Navarre. She was succeeded by their son Charles the Bad of Navarre. Their daughter Blanche d'Evreux became the second wife of Philip VI of France.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Monarchs of Navarre
« on: October 07, 2005, 04:31:51 PM »
Ces mots auraient été prononcés par Gaucher de Chatillon lors du Conseil de Régence réuni quelques semaines après la mort du Roi Louis X le 5 juin 1316.

Le futur Louis X est marié en 1305 à Marguerite de Bourgogne et une fille, Jeanne de Navarre, nait de cette union le 28 juin 1311. Mais, depuis quelques mois déjà, dans la Tour de Nesle à Paris, Marguerite de Bourgogne et sa cousine Blanche de Bourgogne, épouse du frère cadet de Louis, le futur Charles IV, commettent l'adultère avec les écuyers de leurs maris, les frères Philippe et Gautier d'Aulnay (ou Aunay).

Isabelle de France, soeur de Louis mariée au Roi d'Angleterre, en visite en France, confond les deux femmes en reconnaissant à la ceinture des écuyers les bourses brodées qu'elle à offertes à ses belles-soeurs. Ainsi dénoncées au roi Philippe IV le Bel, Marguerite et Blanche de Bourgogne sont condamnées en 1314 et emprisonnées à Chateau-Gaillard, alors que leurs amants sont roués, écorchés vifs, châtrés et décapités.

Le 29 novembre 1314, Louis X, dit le Hutin, succède à son père Philippe le Bel, à l'âge de 25 ans. Il se remarie le 19 août 1315 avec Clémence de Hongrie. Lorsque Louis X meurt dans la nuit du 4 au 5 juin 1316, Clémence est enceinte de quatre mois. Louis X n'ayant pas d'héritier mâle à sa mort, et en attendant la naissance de son enfant posthume, le problème de sa succession se pose, pour la première fois dans l'histoire de la royauté française. Un grand Conseil présidé par le Régent Philippe, Comte de Poitiers et frère puîné de Louis X, est réuni en juillet 1316 pour décider de la succession.

Si l'enfant posthume est un garçon, il accèdera naturellement au trône de France. Mais si une fille vient à naître, quelle devra âtre la décision à prendre ? Un doute subsistant sur la légitimité de Jeanne de Navarre, conçue alors que Marguerite de Bourgogne avait déjà des relations adultérines, de nombreux membres du Conseil s'opposent à son accession au trône. Mais faire couronner la seconde fille de Louis X apparaîtrait comme une offense au Duc de Bourgogne, oncle de Marguerite, et pourrait conduire à une guerre civile.

Gaucher V de Chatillon, connétable de France, propose alors de décréter l'impossibilité pour les filles d'accéder à la couronne, bien qu'aucune coutume du passé ne semble légitimer cette solution (seule la loi salique, issue d'un loi franc-salienne, excluait les femmes de la succession à la terre, mais elle était difficilement transposable au cas présent)... Le Connétable se serait alors écrié :

"En vérité, ce serait folie que de laisser fille monter au trône ! Voyez-vous dame ou donzelle commander les armées, impure chaque mois, grosse chaque année ? Et tenir tête aux vassaux, alors qu'elle ne sont point capables de faire taire les chaleurs de leur nature ?
Non, moi je ne vois point cela, et je vous le dis, la France est trop noble royaume pour tomber en quenouille et être remis à femelle.
Les lis ne filent pas !"

Pour repousser la décision à plus tard, il est décidé qu'en cas de naissance d'une fille, Philippe garderait la Régence jusqu'à la majorité de Jeanne et qu'une décision serait prise à ce moment là. (accession d'une des filles à la couronne ou décret d'impossibilité d'accession).

Le 14 novembre 1316, Clémence de Hongrie met au monde un garçon. Ce dernier naît sous le nom de Jean 1er, dit le Posthume. Malheureusement, il meurt cinq jours plus tard, laissant entière la question de la succession. Le Comte de Poitiers se fait alors proclamer Roi, sous le nom de Philippe V le Long, et tuteur de la petite Jeanne de Navarre.

La question de la succession se posera à nouveau 12 ans plus tard, à la mort de Charles IV le Bel, qui comme ses frères Louis X et Philippe V, meurt sans héritier mâle. Il laisse lui aussi une épouse enceinte (qui accouchera d'une fille, Blanche), une soeur Isabelle Reine d'Angletterre, désireuse de faire couronner son fils Edouard III, et un cousin, Philippe de Valois, qui accèdera finalement au trône en vertu de l'application de la loi salique évoquée par Gaucher de Chatillon et Philippe V.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Monarchs of Navarre
« on: October 04, 2005, 02:16:29 AM »
I find it strange that there were two Maria's, Juana's and Luiz's.
The second Luiz was born after the death of his brother but the two Marias and Juanas not.

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