Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Topics - Prince_Lieven

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]
The Tudors / The Fair Maid of Kent
« on: August 08, 2005, 08:28:12 AM »
I thought I'd start a thread on the mother of Richard II and wife of the Black Prince. to get the ball rolling, here's some infor on her off Wikipedia:

'Family history

Joan was daughter of Edmund of Woodstock, 1st Earl of Kent and Margaret Wake. Her paternal granparents were Edward I of England and his second Queen consort Marguerite of France. Her father was a younger half-brother of Edward II of England. Edmund's support of the King placed him in conflict with the Queen, Isabella of France and her lover Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March. When Edward II was deposed, Joan's father was executed.

Early life

The Earl’s widow, Margaret Wake, was left with four children. Her younger daughter, Joan, was only two years old. Her cousin, the new King, Edward III, took on the responsibility for the family, and looked after them well. His wife, Queen Philippa, was well known for her tender-heartedness, and Joan grew up at court, where she became friendly with her cousins, including Edward, the Black Prince.

Marriage(s) and legendary beauty

At the age of twelve, she entered into a clandestine marriage with Thomas Holland of Broughton. The following year, while Holland was overseas, her family forced her into a marriage with William Montacute. As Countess of Salisbury, Joan moved in the highest society. Some historians identify her as the mystery woman who appeared at a banquet in Calais and attracted the attention of every man present. Allegedly, while dancing with the King, the lady lost her blue velvet garter, and this was the origin of the Order of the Garter. It is more likely that Joan's mother-in-law was the woman involved.

It was not for several years that Thomas Holland returned from crusade, having made his fortune, and the full story of his earlier relationship with Joan came out. He appealed to the Pope for the return of his wife. When the Earl of Salisbury discovered that Joan supported Holland’s case, he kept her a virtual prisoner in her own home.

In 1349, Pope Clement VI annulled Joan’s marriage to the Earl and sent her back to Thomas Holland, with whom she lived for the next eleven years. They had four children, then Holland died in 1360. Their children were:

  1. Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent
  2. John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter
  3. Joan Holland, married 1) Duke John V of Brittany 2) Edmund of Langley, Duke of York, son of Edward III and Philippa of Hainault
  4. Maud Holland, married Waleran of St.Pol

Joan, now widowed but only thirty-two, was a catch by anyone else’s standards. She had inherited the earldom of Kent when her brother died in 1353. She was strikingly beautiful, with perfect features, auburn hair that reached to her waist, and dark eyes, and was regarded as one of the most desirable women in the country. The Black Prince had been in love with her for years, but his father and mother disapproved. Queen Philippa might have made a favourite of Joan at first, but as her son grew older, she had become concerned about the budding romance between the two cousins, and set herself against it.

Marriage again, and life in France

The Archbishop of Canterbury warned the Prince that there could be doubts cast on the legitimacy of any children Joan might bear him, in view of the fact that one of her previous husbands, the Earl of Salisbury, was still alive, but the marriage went ahead with an assurance of absolution from the Pope. They were married in 1361, and almost immediately set sail for France, since the Black Prince was also the Prince of Aquitaine, a region of France which belonged to the English Crown. Two children were born in France, both of them sons. The elder son, named Edward after his father and grandfather, died at the age of six.

Around the time of the birth of their younger son, Richard, the prince was lured into a war on behalf of Pedro the Cruel, ruler of Castile. The ensuing battle was one of the Black Prince’s greatest victories, but King Pedro was killed, and there was no money to pay the troops. In the meantime, the Princess was forced to raise another army, because the Prince’s enemies were threatening Aquitaine in his absence.

Husband's death and son's coronation

By 1371, the Black Prince was no longer able to perform his duties as Prince of Aquitaine, and returned to England, where plague was wreaking havoc. It killed Joan’s mother, Margaret Wake, in 1372. Joan inherited her title to add to all the others – Lady Wake of Liddel. In that same year, the Black Prince forced himself to attempt one final, abortive campaign in the hope of saving his father’s French possessions. His health was now completely shattered. Later the same year, a week before his forty-sixth birthday, he died in his bed at Westminster.

Joan’s son, Richard, was now the heir to the throne, and became King on his grandfather's death in the following year. Early in his reign, the young King faced the challenge of the Peasants' Revolt. The Lollards, religious reformers led by John Wyclif, had enjoyed the protection of Joan of Kent, but the violent climax of the popular movement for reform reduced the feisty Joan to a state of terror, whilst leaving the King with an improved reputation. But for Joan, worse was to come. In 1385, Sir John Holland, an adult son of her first marriage, was campaigning with the King in Scotland, when a quarrel broke out between him and Lord Stafford, a favourite of the new Queen. Stafford was killed, and John Holland sought sanctuary at the shrine of St John of Beverley. On the King’s return, Holland was condemned to death. Joan pleaded with her son for four days to spare his half-brother. On the fifth day, (the exact date in August is not known), she died, at Wallingford Castle. Richard, of course, relented, and pardoned Holland, but the damage was done. Joan was buried at Stamford in Lincolnshire. Sir John Holland was sent on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land.'

Intersting to note that she held the titles of Countess of Kent and Lady Wake of Liddel in her own right, isn't it? Clearly she didn't have much clout with Richard. I suppose she was styled Dowager Princess of Wales during his reign . . . Any thoughts?

The Tudors / Henry VII
« on: August 06, 2005, 02:58:47 PM »
I think Henry VII suffers from being in his son's shadow. I consider him a much beeter king in most ways - he made the country rich again, he brought stability and he abolished private armies. What do you all think of him?

The Hohenzollern / Prince of Prussia vs. Prince of Germany
« on: August 01, 2005, 12:15:52 PM »
After 1871, what was the official style and title of the Hohenzollern princes? Was it HRH Prince of Prussia or HIH Prince of Germany or Prince of the German Empire? Take Prince Henry, brother of Kaiser Wilhelm as an example. He is always referred to as Prince Henry of Prussia, just as his sisters are referred to as Princesses Victoria, Sophie and Margarete of Prussia. what was the official style?

The Tudors / Mary Boleyn's children
« on: July 26, 2005, 07:37:45 AM »
Now, we all know Mary Boleyn was Henry VIII's mistress for a time. Afterwards, she married William Carey. Her two children, Catherine Carey and Henry Carey, often have their paternity diputed. Henry never acknowleged them, though that isn't saying much. Opinions on whose children they were, anyone?

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Tea and Coffee
« on: July 18, 2005, 05:59:30 PM »
I'm sure I heard somewhere that Catherine brought tea to England anyway (Portugal had strong trade links with India). In fact, in the BBC produced 'Charles II' there is an amusing scene when Catherine asks for tea upon her arrival in England. Charles' courtiers giggle and Sir Edward Hyde says 'The English do not drink tea' or something of the kind. Amusing when you consider how popular tea is in England and Ireland now.

The Tudors / Greys and Cliffords
« on: July 18, 2005, 05:34:33 PM »
Is anyone else interested in getting more info on Katherine and Mary Grey, Jane's sisters. Didn't Katherine marry Edward VI's first cousin, and their grandson married Arbella Stuart, Lord Darnley's niece.

And what about Lady Eleanor Brandon, Frances' sister. I think she married Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland, and had a daughter, Margaret, who married the Earl of Derby, a descendant of Margaret Beaufort's fourth husband. I think I'm right in saying that since, in his will, Henry VIII left the crown to his children and then to Mary's heirs, Anne Stanley, Margaret Clifford's granddaughter, was the legal heiress to the throne when Elizabeth I died (though, of course, James I was a much more practical candidate).

Thoughts anyone?

The Tudors / If Henry VIII had another child . . .
« on: July 15, 2005, 12:58:32 PM »
Imagine what would have happened if Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard or Catherine Parr had given Henry another child. How different would history be?

If another son had been born he probably would have been called Henry, or perhaps Thomas if Katherine Howard was his mother. If Anne of Cleves was his mother, he would have been born in 1540, and would have been seven when the King died (assuming everything happened as it really did). Thus he would have been 13 when Edward VI died. He then would have become King. Would he have been Protestant, or Catholic?

If the son was Katherine Howard's, and was born in 1541, he surely would have been brought up a Catholic, in the tradition of the Howards. However, if Katherine did what she did in reality and had an affair and was exevuted, would Henry have excluded his son from the succession in his will, or let him follow Elizabeth? Who knows?

Catherine Parr's son (born 1544, let us say) would certainly have been brought up Protestant. Henry certainly would have had no inhibitions about putting him directly behind Edward in the succession.

Now, if Anne of Cleve's gave Henry a daughter in 1540 (she would probably have been called Anne, Margaret or Katherine) Henry would most likely have placed in fourth in the succession, after Elizabeth (of course, if Anne had given him a child, he would not have divorced her). Unless, perhaps, he regarded Anne's child as his only LEGITIMATE daughter and put her ahead of both Elizabeth and Mary. She would have been 18 when Mary I died.

If the daughter was Katherine's, I think she would probably have been brought up Catholic. If Henry still divorced Katherine, she would likely have been placed fourth in the succession, behind Elizabeth (after all, he still reinstated Elizabeth and Mary).

Catherine Parr's daughter would have been Protestant, and still only 14 when Mary I died.

What do you all think?

The Windsors / Queen Alexandra (1844-1925)
« on: July 15, 2005, 11:52:24 AM »
Like everyone, Alix had her ups and downs. I think she was a charming, beautiful woman, who always meant well, but treated her children like they were toddlers well into middle age! Her possessivness of Princess Victoria in particular is striking - author John Van Der Kiste says that Toria's cousins could remember many a time when Toria would have to leave them to rush urgently to her mother's side only to find that Mama had forgotten what she wanted in the first place. Whenever the topic of Victoria's marriage came up, Alix would use her deafness as a weapon. What do you all think of her as a person?

Iberian Royal Families / Spanish Habsburg Infantas
« on: July 15, 2005, 10:17:52 AM »
I have a question. Anne of Austria, Queen consort of France, who lived from 1601 to 1666, was the daughter of a Spanish King, wasn't she? Then why is she always referred to as Anne of Austria. I know that the Spanish and Austrian royal families were very closely interelated but even so . . .

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]