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Topics - Prince_Lieven

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The Tudors / "Rich List"
« on: August 17, 2006, 06:35:18 AM »
Hi everyone! I thought this would make an interesting thread - Alianore found a sort of middle-ages 'Rich List' online, listing the wealthiest people from each century, from the 11th until the 16th. I don't think it includes monarchs, since I could only find one - Eleanor of Aquitaine - and I think she's in there as a Duchess, not a queen. Anyway, Alianore asked me to post it, so here it is!

the first figure is the person's wealth in modern money.  The figures in brackets are: 1) total wealth of England at the time of the person's death 2) the percentage the person owned of the total wealth and 3) their worth at the time of death, in contemp money.


          3 entries
                                 Total wealth
                                 £146.9 billion
          William of Warenne, Earl of
          Surrey (d1088)
                                 £57.6bn (£150,000;
                                 6.66%, £10,000)0.2

          Robert, Count of Mortain
                                 £46.1bn (£150,000;
                                 5.33%, £8,000)
          Odo of Bayeux, Earl of Kent
                                 £43.2bn (£150,000;
                                 5%, £7,500)
          14 entries
                                 Total wealth
                                 £127.1 billion
          Aaron of Lincoln (died c1186)
                                 £21.6bn (£1m;
                                 2.5%, £25,000)
          Archbishop Thomas Becket
                                 £19.2bn (£900,000;
                                 2.22%, £20,000)
          Bishop Ranulf Flambard
                                 £17.3bn (£250,000;
                                 2%, £5,000)
          Robert of Bellême, Earl of
          Shrewsbury (c1052-c1130)
                                 £14.4bn (£600,000;
                                 1.66%, £10,000)
          Robert of Meulan, Earl of
          Leicester (1046-1118)
                                 £9.6bn (£350,000;
                                 1.11%, £3,900)
          Ranulf Glanvill (c1120-1190)
                                 £8.6bn (£1m; 1%,
          Jurnet of Norwich
                                 £6.2bn (£1.1m;
                                 0.72%, £8,000)
          Roger, Bishop of Salisbury
                                 £6.1bn (£700,000;
                                 0.71%, £5,000)
          William Cade (d1166)
                                 £5.7bn (£900,000;
                                 0.66%, £6,000)
          Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of
          Essex (d1144)
                                 £4.3bn (£800,000;
                                 0.5%, £4,000)
          Bishop Hugh de Puiset, Earl of
          Northumberland (c1120-1195)
                                 £4.3bn (£1m; 0.5%,
          Rhys ap Gruffydd
                                 £4.3bn (£1m; 0.5%,
          Walter Espec (died c1153)
                                 £2.9bn (£900,000;
                                 0.33%, £3,000)
          Richard de Lucy (d1179)
                                 £2.6bn (£1m; 0.3%,

The Tudors / Dukes of Buckingham
« on: August 11, 2006, 01:24:24 PM »
Hello all, just to liven this board up a bit I thought a thread on the two dukes of Buckingham who lived during the 15th and 16th centuries would be fun. The first was Henry Stafford (1455-1483), son of Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Stafford, and Lady Margaret Beaufort (not that Margaret Beaufort, obviously  ;)). He was a ward of King Edward IV, who married him as a child to his (Edward's) sister-in-law, Catherine Woodville. Buckingham is often portrayed in historical fiction as disliking Catherine because of her social status, but does anyone know how they really got on? He was the premier peer in England, with a claim to the throne through descent from Thomas of Woodstock. He was a supporter of Richard III, until he rebelled and was executed in 1483. Does anyone know why he rebelled?

He had five children with Catherine (who married twice more, first to Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, then to Sir Richard Wingfield, before dying in about 1513).
1. Anne (she married George, Lord Hastings)
2. Edward, Duke of Buckingham (1478-ex. 1521)
3. Henry, Earl of Wiltshire (1479-1523)
3. Elizabeth (she married Robert Ratcliffe, Earl of Sussex)
4. Humphrey (d. young).

When Henry VII became King, the attainder against the Staffords was reversed, so Edward became Duke of Buckingham (he was also first cousin to Queen Elizabeth of York). He was made a ward of Margaret Beaufort, the King's mother. He was Lord High Steward at Henry VIII's coronation, and carried the crown. In 1500, he married Lady Eleanor Percy, and had the following children:
1. Henry, Lord Stafford (1500-1563)
2. Elizabeth Stafford (d. 1558, married Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk)
3. Catherine Stafford (d. 1555, married Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmorland)
4. Mary Stafford (married George Neville, Lord Bergavenny).

Edward was jealous of Cardinal Wolsey's power, and in 1521 was arrested (what were the charges?). He was executed on 17 May 1521.

Does anyone know any more about either of these men?

The Tudors / Tudor 'Chief Mourners'
« on: June 02, 2006, 09:21:46 AM »
Hello.  :) when reading bios about the various Tudors, one often reads of 'chief mourners' - does anyone know who picked the chief mourner? Did kings have chief mourners? I can only think of two at the moment - Eleanor Brandon was chief mourner at Katherine of Aragon's funeral and Lady Jane Grey was chief mourner at Catherine Parr's. Does anyone know any other chief mourners?

The Tudors / The Mysterious Death of King William II
« on: May 25, 2006, 09:09:33 AM »
I thought this interesting topic deserved it's own thread. For anyone who doesn't know, King William II ('Rufus') was killed in very shady circumstances in the New Forest, Hampshire. What happened was this: Before going hunting, William gave Sir Walter Tyrell some 'special' arrows and told him 'Be sure to aim at the mark' and 'take good care to carry out the orders I gave you.' When they went, Tyrell shot at a stag, but somehow ended up killing the King. Tyrell fled to the Holy Land, where he died eventually, protesting innocence to the end. Since then, some have speculated that Henry, William's younger brother, deliberately had him killed so he could become king himself - this theory is backed up by Henry's prompt action in securing the royal treasury at Winchester and then having himself crowned. However, a less well known idea is that the whole thing was a ritual scarifice, and William was part of an old pagan cult that was involved with witchcraft, an idea backed up by his antipathy towards the church and that the day was close to the pagan feast of Lammas. What do you guys think?

The Stuarts of Scotland / Notable Stuart Noblemen
« on: May 06, 2006, 11:17:02 AM »
Here's a thread to discuss noblemen who served the Stuarts - from Robert Cecil, Earl of Salisbury, to Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford, and the Dukes of Lauderdale and Ormonde, who served Charles II, and Charles's 'Cabal' (which included Lauderdale, I think). Then of course there's William III's favourites, the Earls of Albermarle and Portland (I think). If I've forgotten anyone, please mention them!

The Tudors / Edward Guilford, Prince in the Tower??!!
« on: May 05, 2006, 11:09:47 AM »
Hey everyone. I'm almost finished reading Alison Weir's novel 'Innocent Traitor', and at one point in it, from Frances Brandon's point of view, she remarks on the haughty attitude of Jane Guilford, Duchess of Northumberland, and explains it by the fact that Jane's grandfather, Edward Guilford, was rumoured to be the elder of the Princes in the Tower. Has anyone else heard of this, or is it just a piece of artistic liecence on Weir's part?

The Tudors / Tudor Genealogy Question
« on: April 26, 2006, 01:59:56 PM »
Hi everyone. While making my Edward III site, I came across Lady Anne Stanley, great-granddaughter of Eleanor Brandon, but facts about her marriage are contradictory. Two sources - and wikipedia - say that after her marriage to Grey Brydges, Baron Chandos, she married Mervyn Tuchet, Earl of Castlehaven. But another source doesn't say anything about this. And thepeerage and wikipedia say she had only a daughter with Brydges, Elizabeth, who married James Tuchet. But the other source says she had a son, George Brydges. Does anyone know the truth of this??

Hey, I bought a copy of 'Time' magazine today because it has a large article on the Queen in honour of her 80th birthday. I thought you guys might like to know some of the statistics the article presented. They ran several polls.

Should the Queen continue to carry on her duties as at present?
*Yes 59%
*No 24%
*Undecided 17%

Precentage who feel very or mostly favourable toward:
*Police 73%
*Armed Forces 72%
*Church of England 51%
*Royal Family 47%
*Parliament 43%

Percentage of people who say this attribute fits the royal family:
*Good for image abroad 56%
*Important to Britain 50%
*Highly respected 32%
*Out of touch 32%
*Supports and promotes charities 31%
*Hard working 23%
*Remote 20%
*Good value for money 13%
*Important to my life 4%

It goes on to say that since 1952, the Queen has received 3 million letters, hosted about 1.1 million people at her garden parties and made 256 official overseas visits to 129 different countries. It also quotes various people who've recently met the Queen and been extremely impressed. The article was very good - they talked to the Queen's staff, and Prince Andrew as well. When Prince Andrew was asked if his mother 'likes her job' he replied "People say to me 'your life must be very strange'. But of course I've never experienced any other life. It's not strange to me. It's the same for the Queen. She has never experienced anything else. That life, that knowlege, that wisdom is purely natural for her." Pamela Hicks says that the Queen "feels she must do the job she has been given and it will be for others to judge whether she has succeeded."

Remarking on her dry sense of humour, an anecdote is told whereby a foreign head of state who was visiting slipped out of the palace at night, the Queen quipped "Has he taken his wife?" Another time, she stood up at a family dinner and the footman pulled back her chair, but she wanted to continue the conversation so went to sit down again, and of course crashed to the floor. The family found it hilarious, but the footman was horrified, until the Queen reassured him.

Prince Andrew said of his mother: "Her desire is not to change the future, but to be there, today."

I can't speak for anyone else but personlly, my admiration for this woman is boundless and long may she reign!  :D

The Tudors / What Did Henry VIII's Children Think of Him?
« on: April 12, 2006, 06:25:39 PM »
I think this board has gotten a little stale lately (that's just an opinion!) so I hope this will liven it up a bit.

It just crossed my mind yesterday, when my mum and I were discussing children of broken up marriages, and she mentioned that the child usually grows up to hate (1) the parent they don't see often, whom they feel 'ran out on them' or (2) the parent they live with, because they think 'dad/mum had no problem with me, he/she left because of you.'

It made me wonder, what did Henry VIII's children think of him, as a father and a person?

Take Mary for example. For 17 years she his beloved only child, his 'little pearl', and obviously after the breakup she didn't blame Catherine or turn against her. 1533-1536 was a rocky period in their relationship, but after Catherine died, do you think Mary ever resented Henry's treatment of her mother? Did she ever question (to herself I mean) Henry's 'omnipotence' or did she adore/revere him?

Then there's Elizabeth. We can only speculate if she ever resented Henry for murdering her mother. When she became queen, she would pride herself on being 'Great Hal's Daughter' but maybe 'Great Hal' was more a figure to fear or dislike than to lavish filial affection on.

As for Edward, Henry was probably a distant figure, majestic and unapproachable.

Any thoughts?

The Windsors / Precedence
« on: April 10, 2006, 06:39:19 PM »
Hey everyone. ;) I was just wondering, does anyone know the Order of Precedence at QV's Golden Jubilee in 1887 and her Diamond on in 1897? I presume there was a separate order for men and women. I know Alix and Vicky rode in a coach with the Queen at one of them - but does that mean they followed her in precedence? It's a tricky situation - Vicky was the Queen's eldest daughter, but (I think) all the Queen's daughters are outranked by the wives of her sons. At the same time, Vicky was the German Empress at the Diamond Jubilee, and thus outranked any mere princess or duchess. Anyone know anything about this?

The Tudors / Henry VIII's in-laws
« on: April 01, 2006, 10:30:58 AM »
Does anyone know anything about Henry VIII's more obscure in laws?

For example, Catherine Parr's grandmother, Elizabeth Fitzhugh (from whom her royal blood comes ;) had the following children:

    * Anne 1475-1513
    * Thomas 1477-1517
    * John 1479-1511
    * William 1481-1547

Thomas was Catherine's father, obviously. It seems that William was the only one of her uncles alive when she became queen - anyone know anything about him. He married Mary Salisbury, who was 'executed in 1555'.  :o Also, Catherine had a half-aunt, the daughter of Elizabeth Fitzhugh's second marriage - Anna Katherine Vaux 1488-1571, she was the mother of Nicholas Throckmorton.

And Catherine's brother and sister, William 1513-1571, Baron Parr of Kendal, Earl of Essex, Marquess of Northampton and Anne 1515-1551, who married William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke.

And what about Katherine Howard's sisters?

    * Marie 1520-1559 married Thomas Aundel.
    * Marguerite 1525-1569 married Edward Trafford.
    * Isabel 1526-1563 married Henri Baynton.
    * Joyce 1528-1577 married John Stanney.

Anyone know anything about them?? Or Katherine's stepmother Margaret Jennings, who lived through her married to Henry VIII?

Then Jane Seymour's siblings:

    * Margery 1502-1520
    * Edward 1506-1552 Lord Protector, Duke of Somerset.
    * Thomas ca 1508-1549 Lord Seymour of Sudeley.
    * Henry 1510-1535 married Barbara Wolfe.
    * Dorothy 1511-1566 married Clement Smith.
    * Elizabeth 1512-1563 married Gregory, Baron Cromwell, son of Thomas Cromwell.

And what about Margery Wentworth, their mother who died in 1550? Does anyone know anything about these people?

Thanks!  :)

The Tudors / Contemporary Descriptions
« on: March 29, 2006, 04:07:56 PM »
Hey, I thought it would be a good idea if we gathered as many contemporary descriptions of the Tudors and Plantagenets as we can - for example, quotations from ambassadors ("Mistress Boleyn is of middling beauty" etc). Anyone interested?  :)

The Tudors / Tudors/Plantagenets - causes of death
« on: March 14, 2006, 05:07:45 PM »
I think this could make for an interesting discussion. Lets look at the causes - and supposed causes - of death for some of the later Plantagenets and the Tudors.

Edward IV - a stroke, I think. ???
Elizabeth Woodville - anyone any idea?
Richard III - killed in battle.
Elizabeth of York - childbirth?
Henry VII - what was it that actually killed him?
Arthur Tudor - 'sweating sickness'.
Henry VIII - I've heard heaps of different things, including syphilis. Can anyone make a definite diagnosis?
Margaret Tudor - ?
Anne of Cleves - ?
Edward VI - 'Consumption' (ie TB) or, I've heard, arsenical poisoning?
Mary I - I've heard either cancer of the stomach or womb, or 'sweating sickness'.
Elizabeth I - ?

Anyone any ideas?

Romanov and Imperial Russia Links / Edward III's Descendants
« on: March 09, 2006, 06:39:44 PM »
Hey everyone.  :D I know this isn't strictly Romanov related - though the Romanovs will eventually appear in it as descendants of Edward III - so I hope it's ok for me to post it anyway!

It's just a little genealogy project I'm working on, purely for fun, and it's very much a work in progress so it's growing all the time. So give it a look see if you're interested, and please sign the guestbook if you visit!

Thank you!  :-*

The Stuarts of Scotland / Stuart 'Might-Have-Been' thread
« on: March 03, 2006, 06:41:14 AM »
If anyone's interested, here's a 'counterfactual' thread, like the one on the Tudor board.

One of the things I was thinking of is what might have happened to these various Stuarts who died young, if they had survived, or at least one of them had:
-Children of James VI/I
*Margaret Stuart 1598-1600
*Robert Bruce Stuart, Duke of Kintyre 1602
*Mary Stuart 1605-1607
*Sophia Stuart 1606

Who might the girls have married? Would Robert have been a close councilor/general for Charles I in the Civil War? Would the Cromwellians have executed him too?

-Children of Charles I
*Elizabeth Stuart 1635-1650
*Anne Stuart 1637-1640
*Catherine Stuart 1639
*Henry Stuart, Duke of Gloucester 1640-1660

The girls would have been 25, 23 and 21 at the time of the Restoration. Would they have been married by then? In all likelihood, Anne and Catherine would have been kept in England with Elizabeth and Henry. And what of Henry? Would he have been considered an alternative  king to James II (instead of Monmouth)?

-Children of James II and Anne Hyde
*Charles Stuart, Duke of Cambridge 1660-1661
*James Stuart, Duke of Cambridge 1663-1667
*Charles Stuart, Duke of Kendal 1666-1667
*Edgar Stuart, Duke of Cambridge 1667-1671
*Henrietta Stuart 1669
*Catherine Stuart 1671

If the eldest, Charles, had survived, he obviously would have been heir presumptive to the throne. However, since the legality (and indeed existence) of his father's 1659 marriage to Anne Hyde was in doubt, his legitimacy could always be questioned. No doubt Charles II would have had the other children - especially boys like James and Edgar - brought up as Protestants. Charles might have allowed James to bring up the girls as Catholics, since they wouldn't have a good chance to succeed the throne, and since it would give them a better chance of a good marriage.

-Children of James II and Mary of Modena
*Catherine Laura Stuart 1675
*Isabella Stuart 1676-1681
*Charles Stuart, Duke of Cambridge 1677
*Elizabeth Stuart 1678
*Charlotte Maria Stuart 1682
*Louise Marie Stuart 1692-1712

We speculated on Louise Marie's fate on another thread - might she have entered a convent, or maybe even married a Conti or Conde? Does anyone know if Isabella, the only one who lived to be a toddler (apart from Louise Marie) was intended to be a Catholic or a Protestant? If Charles, Duke of Cambridge (1677) had survived, wouldn't Charles II have had him made a Protestant? And who might the girls have married?

I know not everyone shares my passion for 'What if's but I'd love to hear your thoughts! :D

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