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Topics - Prince_Lieven

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The Stuarts of Scotland / Battle of Flodden
« on: December 27, 2005, 11:57:27 AM »
Hey everyone.  ;) We all know about the Battle of Flodden in 1513, right? It was a total disaster for the Scots, who lost about 10,000 fighting men to England's 1500-4000. James IV was killed in the battle. It's also said that many Scottish earls died. Does anyone have the exact number? Can we try to list them?

The Tudors / Tudor Palaces
« on: December 20, 2005, 12:12:42 PM »
It's often said that by the end of his life Henry VIII owned about 56 palaces. Does anyone know what they are? I tried to come up with a few but could only get to 10.

1. Hampton Court
2. Greenwich Palace
3. Richmond Palace
4. Whitehall Palace
5. Eltham Palace
6. Nonsuch Palace
7. Palace of Westminster
8. Tower of London
9. Oatlands Palace
10. St James' Palace

Of course, 'palace' could be a loose term which describes the likes of Hatfield House or Kenninghall, that belonged to the King, or perhaps castles too.

French Royals / Dukes and Duchesses of Brittany
« on: December 18, 2005, 05:32:37 PM »
Hi everyone.  ;) Here's a thread to discuss the dukes and duchesses of Brittany, for so long thorns in the side of the French king. ;D

House of Nantes/Naoned

   * Alan II Wrybeard (reigned as a duke from 937 to 952)
   * Drogo, son (reigned from 952 to 958)
   * Hoel I, brother (reigned from 960-981 as a duke, but controlled only the county of Nantes/Naoned)
   * Guerech, brother (reigned from 981-988 as a duke, but controlled only the county of Nantes/Naoned)

House of Rennes/Roazhon

   * Conan I of Rennes (r.958-992) earl of Rennes/Roazhon, then ruling all Brittany (if not Nantes/Naoned) as a duke (990-992)
   * Geoffrey I (r.992-1008)
   * Alan III (r.1008-1040)
   * Conan II (r.1040-1066)

House of Cornouaille/Kernev

   * Hoel II of Cornouaille/Hoel Huuel (r.1066-1084), married Hawisa, daughter of Alan III
   * Alan IV Fergant (r.1084-1112)
   * Conan III the Fat (r.1112-1148)
   * Eon I of Porhoet (r.1148-1156), married Bertha, daughter of Conan III
   * Conan IV the Younger, son of Bertha and Alan of Richmond. (r.1156-1168), deposed, d. 1171

House of Anjou

   * Geoffrey Plantagenet (r.1166-1186), married Constance, daughter of Conan IV
   * Constance, daughter of Conan IV, (r.1186-1201)
   * Arthur I Plantagenet (r.1196-1203)
   * Alix, daughter of Constance and Guy of Thouars, (r.1203-1221)

House of Dreux

   * Peter I Mauclerc of Dreux (r.1213-1237) in right of his wife Alix and as regent of his son
   * John I, the Red (r.1237-1286)
   * John II (r.1286-1305)
   * Arthur II (r.1305-1316)
   * John III, the Good (r.1312-1341)

Breton War of Succession (1341-1364)

   * Charles of Blois and Joanna of Penthièvre (r.1341-1364)
         o vs. Dukes John IV and John V

House of Montfort

The cadet branch of the House of Dreux

   * John of Montfort (r.1341-1345)
   * John IV, the Conqueror (r.1364-1399)
   * John V (r.1399-1442)
   * Francis I (r.1442-1450)
   * Peter II (r.1450-1457)
   * Arthur III (r.1457-1458)
   * Francis II (r.1458-1488)
   * Anne of Brittany (r.1488-1514)
   * Claudia of France (r.1514-1524)
   * François (III), dauphin of France (r.1524-1532), son of Francis I of France and Claudia of France

Clipped from Wikipedia.  ;)

BTW, both Duchess Anne and Duchess Claudia were Queens of France.

Any info or pics to volunteer?

BeNeLux Royalty / Dukes of Burgundy
« on: December 18, 2005, 05:28:26 PM »
Hi all.  ;) Here's a thread for discussion of the reigning dukes of Burgundy.

Here's a few pics:
Charles the Bold -

His daughter, Marie, Duchess of Burgundy:

   * Richard of Autun, the Justicier (880–921)
   * Rudolph of Burgundy (king of France from 923) (921–923)
   * Hugh the Black (923–952)
   * Gilbert of Chalon (952–956)
   * Odo of Paris (956-965)
   * Otto-Henry the Great (965–1002)
   * Otto-William (1002–1004)

1004: Burgundy annexed by France

   * Henry I of France (1016–1032)

Capetian Dukes

   * Robert I (1032–1076), brother of Henry I
   * Hugh I (1076–1079)
   * Eudes I the Red (1079–1103)
   * Hugh II (1103–1143)
   * Eudes II (1143–1162)
   * Hugh III (1162–1192)
   * Eudes III (1192–1218)
   * Hugh IV (1218–1271)
   * Robert II (1272–1306)
   * Hugh V (1306–1315)
   * Eudes IV (1315–1349)
   * Philip I of Rouvre (1349–1361)

House of Valois

   * Philip II, the Bold (1364–1404)
   * John, the Fearless (1404–1419)
   * Philip III, the Good (1419–1467)
   * Charles I, the Bold (1467–1477)
   * Mary of Burgundy (1477–1482)

Marie - or Mary - married Emperor Maximilian I. Burgundy eventually passed to their grandson, Charles V, king of Spain, Holy Roman Emperor, so the Burgundian inheritance became tied up with the Habsburgs.

Any pics or info to volunteer?

The Tudors / The 'Lady of the English'
« on: December 15, 2005, 08:20:47 AM »
Hey everyone.  ;)

I just finished Sharon Penman's historical novel 'When Christ and His Saints Slept'. It's about a war in England in the 12th Century, when Henry I's nephew, Stephen, steals the crown from the rightful heir, Henry's daughter Matilda (or Maude, depending on your point of view, but Matilda seems more common). They fought a bitter civil war from the beginning of Stephen's reign till about 1148, when Matilda finally backed out of the campaign. She had captured Stephen and triumphed at Lincoln in 1141, and was proclaimed 'Lady of the English'. Alas, few people have played such a strong hand as badly as Matilda did. Within 8 months, she had been driven from London, and her bastard half-brother and strongest support Robert Fitzroy had been captured, so she had to exchange him for Stephen.

Stephen had previously had Matilda under sige at Arundel Castle, but let her join Robert in Bristol, in a move inexplicable to this day (Penman speculated that any lingering guilt Stephen felt over usurping the throne was erased after this because he had saved Matilda's life).

But when he lay Oxford Castle under siege, she knew that there would be no reprieve this time. It was very snowy weather, and, amazingly, Matilda escaped from the castle by donning a white robe and simply slinking by Stephen's army. This actual happened, it's not artistic licence.

Stephen and Matilda fought repeatedly for the next few years, Stephen based in London while Matilda's headquarters were at Devizes Castle. The war brought horror to the people of England, with towns like Winchester and Lincoln worst hit, as victorious soldier indulged in looting and rape. Before long, the common people didn't care who was on the throne, as long as the war stopped.

Finally, Robert Fitzroy died in 1147. He had been Matilda's ablest commander, and she could not continue without him. She returned to France, and her estranged husband Geoffrey Plantagenet, seeminlgy accepting that she would never be queen, but continuing the fight from France on behalf of her son Henry.

Eventually, Matilda had the last laugh. Henry invaded England and forced Stephen to sign the Treaty of Wallingford in 1153, which acknowleged Henry as heir to the throne of England, but Stephen would be allowed to continue as king for his lifetime. The fact that Stephen's eldest son Eustace had died not long before the treaty made things easier. It was said that Stephen's surviving son William would be recognised with all the title's Stephen had held before coming king, and confirmed in the honours Stephen had conferred on him.

Stephen died in 1154, and Henry became Henry II. Matilda was a loyal and good councillor to her son, and died in 1167. Whatever her detractors say about her, I think was incredibly brave to even challenge Stephen's right to the throne in the first place. I have the greatest respect for Elizabeth I, but this woman was, IMO, the original queen with 'the heart and stomach of a king'. ;)

Having Fun! / Like or Dislike?
« on: December 13, 2005, 03:08:35 PM »
Hi guys.  ;) My brother told me about this game, and at first I thought it was silly, but I guess I may as well give it a go.

This is how it works. The first poster says, e.g - Fantasy books?

The second poster says: I like/dislike them. Then the second poster continues with, e.g - Computer games?

The third poster answers and then says something of their own. Get it?

Anyway . . .  ;)


The Stuarts of Scotland / Poll - Who's side are you on in 1688?
« on: December 09, 2005, 10:35:05 AM »
Hi guys.  ;) I thought - and hope - this thread will provoke an interesting discussion.

This is a poll thread. The question is:

In the Glorious Revoltuion of 1688, who do you think was in the right? James II, Mary Beatrice and the Old Pretender, or William III, Mary II and Queen Anne?

Please post first your answer to the question, and then your reasons for saying so.

I'll go first.  ;) I found it more difficult to decide than I had thought it would be - on the one hand, James was the legitimate, anointed King of Great Britain, and it was surely unfair - and religiously discriminative - to rob James Francis Edward of the throne because of things his father had done. That said, few people have played a strong hand as badly as James did. He flaunted his Catholocism rather than sensibly playing it down, and attemped to cram absolutism down England's throat.

On the other side of the equation, William can scarcely be blamed for acting as he did, with the throne of GB handed to him on a plate. Mary, of course, acted as a dutiful wife rather than the dutiful daughter, which opens up a whole new can of worms - was her first duty to her husband, or her father? Anne's conduct is difficult to defend. She may well have seen herself as the defender of the Anglican faith in England, with Mary away, and perhaps feared for her fellow Anglicans under the James II, and later James III. Of course, she may well have acted purely out of ambition.

I'll cast my vote - I think that James II, Mary Beatrice and their son were in the right. James was the legitimate king, and cannot be blamed for expecting obediance from his daughters, to whom he and his wife had never been anything but kind. William, Mary and Anne's actions were understandable, but I can't say they were right.

The Tudors / Class-breaching marriages
« on: December 08, 2005, 07:36:12 AM »
Hi all.  ;) I just wanted to start a thread about the various class-breaching marriages that seemed almost prevalent in Tudor times. I mean, look at these examples:

-Margaret Plantagenet m. Sir Richard Pole, 22 September 1494.
*This marriage certainly seems odd - a Plantagenet princess and a mere knight. Then again, I think the main reason was to 'neutralise' Margaret, so that she didn't marry a more ambitious husband who might press her very definite claims to the throne.

-Sir Thomas Boleyn m. Lady Elizabeth Howard, 1500.
*Wasn't this considered class breaching? Thomas was a mere knight, albeit a star on the rise, but Elizabeth was a Howard!

-Edmund Dudley m. Elizabeth Grey, Lady L'Isle, c.1501.
*Dudley was Henry VII's tax collector, Elizabeth was a peeress in her own right, with connections to the Mowbrays and Elizabeth Woodville's family. It was through this that the son of this marriage, John Dudley, was later made Lord L'Isle, before further honours were bestowed. Elizabeth was probably an heiress - was this a reward for loyal service for Edmund from his king?

-Cecily Plantagenet m. Thomas Kyme, January 1504.
*Cecily, younger sister of Queen Elizabeth of York, had been married firstly to Henry VII's half uncle, John Welles, Viscount Welles, and born him two short lived children. After his death, she married Kyme, and was banished from court. She died on the Isle of Wight.

-Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset m. Margaret Wotton, 1509.
*Thomas was the grandson of Elizabeth Woodville, Margaret was the daughter of one Robert Wotton.

-Lord Robert Dudley m. Amy Robstart, 1550.
*Robert was the son of the Lord Protector, Amy the daughter of a knight.

-Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk m. Margaret Audley, 10 December 1558.
*Surely class breaching?? Thomas was a Duke, and Margaret was the daughter of a mere knight, though her mother was a Grey.

-Jane Dormer m. the Duke de Feria.

-Lady Mary Grey m. Thomas Keyes, 1563.
*I think Elizabeth exiled them from court, didn't she?

I hope this thread will be interesting. Perhaps the likes of Margaret Audley, Amy Robstart and Margaret Wotton were heiresses, albeit untitled ones.


The Tudors / How absolutist were the Tudors?
« on: December 05, 2005, 02:19:37 PM »
Hi all.  ;) Here's something of a tricky question. I was wondering just how much real power the Tudors had. Were they more, less or equally as powerful than their French and Scottish counterparts?

It often seems that royal power reached it's apogee under the Tudors, especially Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. And yet, I'm curious as to how constrained they were by their parliament and council. With acts often past to suit the monarch's personal needs - Henry VIII's 1544 Act of Succession springs to mind - it makes one wonder whether or not parliament was very much a tool of the monarch. And yet, the fact that the bill had to be passed by parliament before it became law displays one thing - the monarch's will alone was not law.

I hope this thread won't bore you all to death!  ;D

The Tudors / King John
« on: November 28, 2005, 08:28:24 AM »
What is your opinion of King John as a ruler and a person? There is definite evidence that he could be ruthless - the murder of his nephew Arthur and incarceration of his niece Eleanor come to mind - and he has often been written off as a weak, ineffectual king. But perhaps he was not as bad as is sometimes thought. Any opinions on him?

The Stuarts of Scotland / Children of James II of Scots
« on: November 26, 2005, 06:28:18 AM »
James II of Scotland and his wife Marie of Gueldres had 5 surviving children. Anyone know anything interesting about them?

1. Mary Stewart, born 1451. She married Thomas Boyd, Earl of Arran (d. c.1473/4) before 26 April 1467/8 and had:
-James, Lord Boyd (d. 1484)
-Margaret Boyd (1468/73-after 1516). She married Alexander, Lord Forbes, and later David Kennedy, Earl of Cassilis.

Mary's marriage to Boyd was made void in 1473/4 and she married James, Lord Hamilton, around February 1474. They had:
-James, Earl of Arran (1475-1529). Married firstly Elizabeth Home, then Janet Beaton.
-Robert, Seigneur d'Aubigny (d. 1543)
-Elizabeth (d. after 1531). She married Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox (d. 1513).

Princess Mary died in c.May 1488. In retrospect, her second marriage and it's issue would prove important to the Scottish succession.

2. James III of Scots, born in May 1452. He married Princess Margaret of Denmark (1456-1486) in 1469 and had:
-James IV of Scots (1473-1513)
-James, Duke of Ross (1476-1504)
-John, Earl of Mar (1480-1503)

James III was assasinated on June 11 1488.

3. Alexander, Duke of Albany, Baron of Annandale, Earl of March, Mar and Garioch, born c.1454. He married Lady Katherine Sinclair in 1475, and had children, but in 1479 the marriage was divorced and the children bastardised. In October 1479 all of Alexander's estates were declared forfeit. He married Anne de la Tour of Auvergne (d. 1512) in 1479 and had:
-John, Duke of Albany (1481-1536). He married another Anne de la Tour (d. 1543).

Alexander had all his estates returned to him in 1482, but forfeited again in 1483. He died competing in a tournament in France in 1485.

4. John, Earl of Mar, born in either 1456, 57, or 59. He forfeited his estates in 1479 and either died or was murdered in 1479.

5. Margaret Stewart. She never married, but was abducted (and probably raped) by William, Lord Crichton (d. 1493), an enemy of James II, and had illegitimate issue:
-Margaret Crichton (d. by 1546). She married firstly William Todrick (d. by 1507), secondly George Halkerstound (d. 1513) and thirdly George Leslie, Earl of Rothes (d. 1513).

Any one have anything to volunteer?

The Stuarts of Scotland / Younger sons of James III
« on: November 26, 2005, 06:03:21 AM »
Hi everyone. As well as the future James IV, James III and Margaret of Denmark had two younger sons, James Stewart, Duke of Ross (1476-1504) and John Stewart, Earl of Mar (1480-1503).

I'd like to know more of these two. Why did they never marry? Did they have any impact on Scottish politics? Where they loyal supporters of their brother and, later, nephew? Anyone know anything at all about them?

The Tudors / Plantagenet Women
« on: November 22, 2005, 11:14:00 AM »
Here's a thread to discuss the many interesting women who were either born into or married into the Plantagenet dynasty, exluding of course queens, who have their own thread.

So have free reign on characters like Katherine Swynford, Cecily Neville, Margaret Pole, Margaret of York (Duchess of Burgundy) and any others who fall into this category! Enjoy!

The Tudors / Henry VI's son - Bastard?
« on: November 14, 2005, 04:11:05 PM »
Hi all.  ;)

Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou were childless for 8 years, until their only child Edward of Lancaster, Prince of Wales. Edward was born during one of Henry's bouts of 'madness' and to this day speculation continues as to whether the King was in fact the boy's father. Many suspected that the tigerish Queen Margaret had taken a lover . . . what do you guys think?

EDIT - Title of thread changed by popular demand.  ;D

French Royals / King Charles X and his family
« on: November 06, 2005, 11:44:41 AM »

The Comtesse d'Artois was the sister of the Comtesse of Provence, born as Princess Maria-Teresa of Savoy on 13 Januray 1756. She married Charles, Comte d'Artois on 16 November 1773. The marriage produced:

    * Louis-Antoine, Duc d'Angouleme 1775-1844
    * Sophie 1776-1776
    * Charles-Ferdinand, Duc de Berry 1778-1820
    * An unnamed child 1783-1783

Maria Teresa died on 2 June 1805.

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