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Topics - Prince_Lieven

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Having Fun! / Say something about the person above you!
« on: November 04, 2005, 02:49:14 PM »
Hello!!  ;D

I was inspired by Aussie Kim's two wonderful gaming threads to start a game of my own, that I saw on another forum.

Here's how it works. I'm the first poster. The next poster has to say something about me. The next says something about them etc.

For example, say things like:
^^(arrows for 'above' ;)) Is a Libra/likes figure skating/knows a lot about fashion/likes the theatre etc.

Do you guys get the idea? Great! Of course, we'll keep it nice.

So, the next poster can start off by saying something about me (oh dear!  :o) ;D

The Stuarts of Scotland / 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« on: November 04, 2005, 09:02:38 AM »
Here's a tricky question, at least for me  ;)

Mary Stuart is generally called 'Mary, Queen of Scots'. Was her official title 'Queen of Scots' or 'Queen of Scotland'? Also, was her father James V 'King of Scots' or 'King of Scotland'? The same goes for Darnley, and Francis I of France.

Also, prior to the Act of Union 1707, was Queen Anne styled 'Queen of England and Scotland' or 'Queen of England and Queen of Scots'?

Thanks!  :)

The Tudors / Tudor 'Might-have-been' thread
« on: October 27, 2005, 12:05:16 PM »
Hi everyone!  :)

I thought this would make for an interesting thread - a place to discuss the many 'what ifs' of Tudor history. I can think of thousands!

Of course, when considering a 'what if', it is usually useful to say 'supposing X happened but all deaths still happened when they did in reality' etc, unless of course 'X' has a direct bearing on a death.

So let your imagination run wild! Post some what ifs and what you think might have happened!  :D

The Tudors / Succession Crises of 1562
« on: October 24, 2005, 04:56:22 PM »
In 1562, Elizabeth Tudor had been Queen of England for just four years. She contracted smallpox. It was thought by almost everyone she was going to die and provoked a massive succession crises in her council. There were several cadidates, some more practical than others, some more powerful than others, some favoured by the people, some by the council, some by neither!

The Primary Candidates

1. Lady Katherine Grey - Katherine was the most likely cadidate. Under the terms of Henry VIII's will, she stood to inherit the throne after Elizabeth. She was a Protestant, which found favour with most English people. The Council saw that here was a well educated but rather stupid woman whom men like William Cecil could have manipulated easily. But there were some disadvantages to Katherine's candidature - namely, she was at the time in the Tower for contracting an illegal marriage to Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford. So, if she was accepted as heiress presumptive, the councillors would have been obliged to release 'Queen Katherine' from the Tower. Also, though she was married, the legitimacy of her marriage was in doubt - in fact, it had been declared null and void by Elizabeth. No doubt as queen, Katherine would have been able to find clerics to declare her marriage valid, but what if one day, her son, as 'Edward VII' would be confronted with the question of his legitimacy? It could end in civil war.

2. Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots - Mary was something of a dark horse. Technically, she had the most superior claim, ad she was in the senior line of descent from Henry VII. Also, she would have the backing of not just Scotland, but perhaps of France also. She was a Catholic, but a French army might have been able to force the English to accept her. She was young, and able to bear children as far as was known. However, there were several points against her - Margaret Tudor had renounced the dynastic claims of any descendants of her marriage to James IV: this obviously included Mary, though it is doubtful that anyone recalled this in 1562. Also, Philip II of Spain would resist her enthronment, to counter act the French influence. Also, as a Catholic, she would be deeply unpopular with her subjects.

3. Margaret, Countess of Lennox - Lady Margaret was 47 in 1562, married with two sons. She was a Catholic, which counted against her, but, she could also claim to have a better right to the throne than both Katherine and Mary - Katherine by seniority and Mary because Margaret, unlike her niece, had been born in England, and Margaret Tudor's renounciation had not counted towards the issue of any subsequent marriage. She was also married to a potential claimant to the Scottish throne, and the mother of two healthy sons, which was a definite point in her favour.

4. Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley - It was certainly possible that Margaret Lennox, like her ancestor Margaret Beaufort, would choose to renounce her rights in favour of her son, Henry. Darnley was young, handsome and well known at the English court. That said, he was also a Catholic - was a Catholic king any more acceptable than a Catholic queen? Through his father, he had a potential claim on the Scottish throne.

5. Charles Stewart - Darnley's brother. Would not be considered while Darnley was alive.

6. Lady Mary Grey - Katherine's sister. Would not be considered while Katherine lived.

7. Margaret, Lady Strange - a rank outsider, the daughter of Eleanor Brandon. I'm not sure whether she was Catholic or Protestant at this time - anyone know? She was 22, married to Henry Stanley, Lord Strange, heir to the Earl of Derby, and the mother of two young sons - Ferdinando and William. If she was Protestant at this time, and Margaret Tudor's descendants were to be ruled out because of their Catholocism, and Katherine Grey because of her dubious marriage, then Lady Strange was a definite possibility.

The Secondary Candidates
There was even talk at this time of not bothering with the Tudor descendants, and placing a Plantagenet on the throne. These names were bandied around the Privy Council at the time.

1. Henry Hastings, Earl of Huntingdon - he was descended from George, Duke of Clarence through the latter's daughter Lady Salisbury. He was a Protestant, but had no real wish to be King of England. He was married to Robert Dudley's sister, Katherine.

2. Henry Manners, Earl of Rutland - he was descended from Edward IV's sister Anne. He was married to Margaret Nevill, who had Plantagenet blood too - she was descended from Henry IV's sister Elizabeth.

3. Henry Nevill, Earl of Westmorland - the brother of Margaret, Lady Rutland, who had a claim through Henry IV's sister Elizabeth.

4. Foreign claimants - to acknowlege the claims of the Nevills, though, also meant acknowleging that of others with Lancastrian descent - including Philip II of Spain and Joao I of Portugal. I think we can safely say neither of these men stood a chance of becoming king of England in their own right!  ;D

5. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk - not so much as an outsider as he seems at first. Norfolk was young, married, and had a son. He also had Plantagenet blood through his grandmother Elizabeth Stafford, and was the premier peer of the realm - but a Catholic.

Any comments on this? Who would you have chosen?  ;D

The Tudors / Queen Elizabeth of York
« on: October 24, 2005, 12:39:04 PM »
I was quite surprised to find there is not already a thread on this woman. I think she was a more interesting woman than she is generally given credit for.

When looking at later Plantagenet family trees, it is always interesting to note: 'Oh, so and so had Plantagenet blood' - see the 'Tracing the Plantagenets thread  ;D). An easy to overlook fact is that Elizabeth herself, wife of the usurper Henry Tudor, was a Plantagent.

And she wasn't just a Plantagenet - she had Woodville blood, and her maternal grandmother had been a princess of Luxembourg. On her father's side, she also had the blood of the proud Neville family, a great 15th century English clan.

Elizabeth is often seen as a typical queen consort of this period - meek, quiet, submissive. And yet, she did, on occasion, display the indomitable spirit of her parents - particularly when her son Arthur died, and she 'bore up' very well, reminding King Henry that he too had been an only child, but through God's grace had survived to become king. She also reminded him 'we are both young enough' - i.e to have more children.

More than once during her life, Elizabeth displayed a kindness characteristic of neither the Plantagenets nor the Woodvilles - a good example is her conduct to the widowed Princess of Wales, Catherine of Aragon, after the death of Prince Arthur.

I am especially interested in discussing Elizabeth's relationships with her family. It is well know that she enjoyed an unusually happy marriage with King Henry. But what of her children? It seems a generally accepted fact that Henry VIII idolised his mother, but can anyone produce tangible proof of this? And her mother, Dowager Queen Elizabeth Woodville? How did Elizabeth get on with her, especially after 1483?

I hope this thread will provoke some interesting discussions!  :)

The Stuarts of Scotland / Lady Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox
« on: October 21, 2005, 06:18:57 PM »
Hi all! Just bringing this Lady Lennox discussion over from the Mary-Darnley thread.

As to your question on there, Bell, I think Lady Margaret was sent to the Tower for marrying (without permission) Lord William Howard.

She was generally a favourite of Henry VIII, though her mother Queen Margaret had little to do with her, and she was brought up in England. She was said to have been the prettiest Tudor girl, aside from Mary, Duchess of Suffolk. In correspondance, she was often referred to as 'the princess of Scotland.'

French Royals / Gaston, Duke of Orleans (1608-60), and his family
« on: October 20, 2005, 05:18:25 PM »
Hello everyone.  :)

This is a topic to dicuss a truly amazing French woman, Anne-Marie d'Orleans, Duchesse de Montpensier, 'La Grand Mademoiselle' and her four half sisters.

La Grand Mademoiselle was the daughter of Gaston d'Orleans, son of Henri IV and brother to Queen Henrietta Maria of England. She was born on May 29 1627, her mother being Marie de Bourbon, heiress of the duchy of Montpensier.

She was heiress to great land and property, and from his earliest days was mooted as a possible bride for her first cousin Louis XIV, 11 years her junior. These plans never materialised, though.

While he was in exile, Charles II of England courted her, with the encouragment of his mother, Queen Henrietta Maria. But Anne-Marie was not keen on the idea since Charles was a penniless exile at the time!

I know she married very late in life, but I can't find much clear info on this or her married life. I'd appreciate any help!  :)

The Tudors / Tudor Mottos
« on: October 19, 2005, 10:23:38 AM »
Hello everyone.  :D

I was just wondering, did the members of the Tudor family have royal mottos, such as QEII's, which is 'Dieu et mon droit'.

I know Richard III did - loyalty binds me (can't remember the Latin) and Henry, Duke of Buckingham - think of me often.

Does anyone else know any? Anyone else interested? Thanks!

The Tudors / Tudor Signatures
« on: October 13, 2005, 04:32:42 PM »
Hi all! In this thread we can post piccies of the signatures of people from Tudor times, like the Tudor Letter thread.

I think this will be interesting to see just how certain nobles actually signed their name (usually just the title) and show us that not everyone had as nice a signature as Elizabeth I!

I'll start us off with the signature of Lord Ambrose Dudley:

The Tudors / Elizabeth I and her Religious Feelings
« on: October 07, 2005, 11:48:02 AM »
Hello all.  :)

I was just wondering if anyone agrees with my view about Elizabeth re her religion. I think that, like Henri IV of France and Charles II of England, she was what I term 'circumstantially' religious, i.e she would be Catholic if she had to be, and Protestant if she had to be.

However, because of the Edict of Nantes, we can say fairly certainly that Henri IV was a Protestant at heart, whereas Charles' deathbed conversion confirms his Catholic sympathies.

My question is, how do you think Elizabeth really felt towards religion? She acted the part of a good Protestant maiden during Edward VI's reign, but as Queen she had a very un-Protestant love of fine clothes and jewels and dancing, and apparently kept many crucifixes and other religious paraphenalia usually associated with the more 'mystic' Catholics.

Any thoughts?

The Tudors / Questions re Jane Grey
« on: October 06, 2005, 12:06:40 PM »
Hi all.  :D

I just have one or two questions regarding Jane Grey that I have been searching in vain for answers for some time. Perhaps someone here can enlighten me.

Firstly, is Lady Jane regarded as an official Queen of England? If there is ever another Queen Jane, will she be Jane II?

Why did she sign things 'Jane the Queen' which was the manner of a Queen consort back then, instead of Jane R?

Was her mother, Frances Brandon, not annoyed to be passed over in Jane's favour in Edward VI' 'Devise for the Succession'? Also, had Jane lasted as Queen, what sort of positions do you think her parents would have occupied at her court?

Thanks in advance!  :)

Having Fun! / Your Wallpaper/Screensaver
« on: September 30, 2005, 04:33:03 PM »
Dia duit, gach duine.  ;)

Since there are threads here for everything else under the sun, I thought it would be nice to say what our PC screensavers and wallpapers are, and too post pics of them (unless they are unsuitable to post <cough>Mrs E<cough>Eddieboy  ;D).

Here's my current Wallpaper. My brother, with whom I share this PC, is obssessed with football (soccer to the Yanks) in particular this player, Roberto Baggio.  ;) In a while it will be MY turn to pick a new one. I have no screensaver, since I'm never away from the PC long enough for it to be needed!

French Royals / Count Louis Philippe de Paris (1838-94) and his family
« on: September 29, 2005, 11:43:03 AM »
Here's a thread to dicuss Princess Helene, who came very close to becoming Queen of Great Britain and Empress of India through her engagment to Prince Eddy, Duke of Clarence. Pics and info welcome, especially about Helene's later life!  :)

French Royals / The mother and sister of Francois I
« on: September 24, 2005, 03:00:34 PM »
I thought that Louise of Savoy and Marguerite d'Angouleme, respectively mother and sister of King Francois I, deserved their own thread.

Louise of Savoy was born on 11 September 1476, the daughter of Philip II, Duke of Savoy (a descendant of Jean II), and his wife Margaret of Bourbon (a descendant of King Philippe III).

When Louise was 12, she married Charles, Comte d'Angouleme, great-grandson of Charles V of France. Charles was 17 years her senior.

The couple's first child, Marguerite d'Angouleme, was born on April 11 1492. A son, Francois, followed on September 12 1494.

Louise was a spirited, intelligent woman, and was keen for her children to be brought up in the spirit of the Renaissance. Louise became a widow at 19 with the death of her husband. She was quick to provide for her children, and moved them to the court of Louis XII, cousin to her late husband. Louis was fond of Francois, and allowed the latter to marry his daughter Claude in 1514.

At the same time, Louis designated Francois as his heir, to Louise's delight. Both Charles VIII and Louis XII had not had sons, so Francois was the nearest male relative of the king. He became King with Louis' death in 1515.

Francois had a great liking and respect for his mother, and declared her Duchesse d'Angouleme and Duchesse d'Anjou upon his accession. Quickly, Louise became Queen Mother of France in all but name, her timid daughter in law Queen Claude fading into the background.

When Francois was absent from France, Louise acted as regent, and it was she who negotiated the Treaty of Cambrai between France and the HRE in 1529. Louise signed the treaty for France, while the Archduchess Margaret, daughter of Maximilian I, signed for the Empire.

Louise was 55 when she died on September 22 1531. She is buried in St Denis is Paris.

More later!

Having Fun! / What Star Sign are you?
« on: September 22, 2005, 05:01:55 PM »
Ok, it is unfair of us to clog up other threads about this.  ;D

We already know that Merrique and I are Virgos (greatest of all  8)), that Kim is an Aries, Duchess Kimberley a Cancer, Holy is a Gemini, Lanie is an Aquarius and Dasha is a Taurus . . .   ::)

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