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1321

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: November 02, 2004, 12:39:44 PM »

Thanks Rskkiya for that acknowledgement; I knew it must be!
I'm not sure about the points Jeremy makes. If peoples are not responsible for their histories, then how Jeremy can they capitalize on their miseries?
Elizabeth is right, I think. Even under totalitarian regimes, the masses of good people are usually not only expected to take responsibility, it is often the case. Surely, Germany has never been given a pass on WWII. Not only has the world demanded they take responsibility, the Germans themselves have done so with 65 years of exemplory democracy and human rights. The same has not occured immediately after the Russian revolution or during the subsequent 8 decades.
Good points on voting day!

1322

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: November 02, 2004, 10:28:22 AM »

Vicky also personally funded the building of churches. There is a wonderful church and school in Kronberg that she built for the town when she established her residence there in the early 1890s.

1323

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: November 02, 2004, 10:26:47 AM »

The Empress was indeed very committed to ensuring nursing and nurse training was attended to. She really is a major initial force in public health, much of her ideas being adopted globally. In fact, she was a big influence on Bismarck and her son William to create really the first social welfare program in the world. They estasblished a process by which the German elderly would be taken care of by public funds in terms of their health care needs, food, and housing. But, primarily health care. Who knows what other good things Vicky and her dear husband Fritz may have accomplished had they both lived until the 1920s?

1324

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: November 02, 2004, 10:20:31 AM »

Thanks so much for the sketch. Is Vicky the 7th person from the left (including the guard with his back to us)? Dona must be 5th. Interesting how QV is on arm of W and Vicky, who should be the center of attention is off to the side, in a way. I think at this moment, and for weeks earlier, W was being very hostile to Vicky and quite unruly.
QV looks very nice, doesn't she? The look on her face is so much more soft than in most representations of her persona. Here she looks kindly, sublime, gentle, and very grandmother-ish.
The officer in the foreground is saluting with his left hand. Is that a particular protocol of the Kaiser's guard?

1325

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: November 01, 2004, 05:56:44 PM »

Interesting thoughts, Robert, and I see where your edit fits in.  
I was not suggesting that idealistic calm following a violent revolution is the only outcome that ought be hoped for or expected. I pointed out earlier that revolutions by definition ARE violent. So be it. Short term there is usually a level of chaos.
But, history and research is a function of having the luxury of looking at the full picture, so to speak. Long term (5-10+ years), if the violent overthrow in 1918 was successful and good people were in place, then calm and positive forward movement would necessarily have been the state of affairs, or the revolution must be questioned...especially if the larger population is less well off than before the overthrow. Iraq?
The problem with the Russian revolution and its short AND long term result is that the bolsheviks (who won the revolution) were not good peple interested in anything other than usurping czarist powers for themselves. Had Kerensky prevailed, all bets are off for the Russia of 1918 and beyond. Likely, it would have been a western-like democracy or semi-democracy.
Stalin a "detriment to human rights"? The man a murderous devil! About the biggest detriment known in human history.
A non-Stalinist post revolution Russia would likely have reduced the fascist threat to a wimper. Recall the Nazis main reason for taking on their own revolutionary stance in the early 20s was anti-bolshevism tied to anti-Semitism. Communists and we Jews were equal opportunity targets of such hate. Hence, Stalin's "defense" against the fascists was necessitated in large part by himself; if he looks good in this vain, it is because he helped cause a problem that he had to solve.
I have to stick to the notion that change for change sake without improving  the lives of the masses creates unforeseen problems that, obviously, get out of control.
The revolution was needed and the IF had to go, but in terms of Monday morning quarterbacking, which is the discussion I guess, it seems the revolution, at that time and with the results we know, was an unfortunate event. Had a different set of people and schedule been in place, it's objectives could have been achieved saving millions of lives and having far more human rights in place for the last 80+ years.
Lastly, as a catalyst, what did it precipitate? Fear, mass murder, decades of poverty and strife, anti Semitism, etc. is what I saw in 20th century Russia. The revolution could have furthered the causes of labor, rights, education, etc, but did not at all do this.
Cheers indeed!

1326

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: November 01, 2004, 02:17:00 PM »

I must disagree with the notion that 'millions died before and millions with die afterward' as a sort of expected doom for humanity. Nonsense.
Revolutions ought to (and have done so successfully) go from the frying pan to the counter top. Not the frying pan to the fire, at least not for the long term. The insanity that fuels a revolution is supposed to stop, not be continued in the same or worse fashion. To accept such as 'the way it works' is shocking to me.
Had the Russian revolution yielded a more humanist, caring, and responsible government, regardless of its political philosophies, few could argue that the revolution was not a good thing. However, the results of the revolution were worse for the largest percent of common people in Russia (and beyond), so in that basic measurement, the revolution in 1918 was not a good thing.
Which of course is not to say the czar and his regime ought to have been kept or even kept alive. The nation would have been far better off had the revolutionaries taken the road as did those in Germany and decades earlier in France. I see no value, in human terms, to the Russian revolution and its effects as we know them to be.

1327

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: November 01, 2004, 12:26:32 PM »

The engagement day picture is indeed a great one. Even in such a pose, his pleasing demeanor and clearly warm and engaging facial expression is overwhelmingly unique. I hope to see GrandduchessElla's sketches of QV's arrival in Berlin.

How did Fritz get so unlucky as to have gotten throat cancer in the first place? Was cancer a family trait? Did he smoke cigars?

I was in the room at the Neues Palais in which Fritz passed away. The room has been kept as a memorial. It is so simple with the letter F inlaid on the floor at the foot of his bed. It was moving to be in the same spot where such history took place.

1328

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: November 01, 2004, 09:06:53 AM »

What a man. In retrospect, perhaps the single most key figure in the last 125 years of history if, having either come to the throne earlier or lived longer, would have created a very different set of circumstances and thus leading Europe away from the core elements causing WWI and WWII.

In addition to his utterly wonderful personal traits, he seems to have been a very competent leader, obviously endorsed by the English completely and his military leadership is also classic. He led his own troops into battle (in particular the Austrian war), quite uncommon after Napoleon, and since Fritz, I am not aware of another figure doing so.

I did not know QV came to visit Fritz and Vicky after their becoming Kaiser and Kaiserin. Was this a large state visit or a quiet family visit specifically resulting from his deteriorating health?

He is definitely a favorite of mine, and once again, the only one who shows his smile and grin in photos. This alone separates him from all others, and ever so endearing.

By the by, his statue in the platz next to NassauerHof hotel in Wiesbaden is definitely a stopping point.

1329

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: October 31, 2004, 03:22:42 PM »

He was indeed a special man from all accounts. His marriage to Vicky was a match not only made in Heaven, but on earth as well in terms of their potential to create essentially an EU 100 years before it was actually realized. The "what if's" had his reign been long, at least lasting into the early 20th century, are immeasureable.

Frederick is one of the few who is photographed with a smile or grin on his face. His endearing nature seems to have been captured on film.

Anyone with rare photos of the man?

Did any of his children write biographies of their father?

1330

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part I

« on: October 31, 2004, 12:31:02 PM »

I've read that Frederick was imensely popular in England; that during the Jubilee of QV, Frederick was more enthusiasitically cheered by the crowds than any other royal than QV herself.
What was his popularity a result of? He had a dashing and handsome and large physical appearance, as well as a kind and caring personality and political point of view, but what drove the British to endear him so?

1331

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: October 31, 2004, 11:41:03 AM »

Dashova (this is off the main topic but.....) I thought AIM was good to support as well; decades ago when it meant something, but they took the road of wallowing in their own misery and seeking "pay back" rather than crafting constructive programs to move forward. Same victimization rhetoric that benefits no one except those who lead the duping process and get rich doing so.
We were not hidden on reservations; we did choose this. Been to a casino lately? Once everyone gets past the victim status and joins the community of working capitalists--from all socio economic levels-- conditions overwhelmingly improve.

1332

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: October 31, 2004, 10:49:33 AM »

Well I never anticipated my American Indian portion of my ethicity to be in play on such a forum! One-eight Chippewa (sometimes calle Ojibwa).
Elizabeth is generally correct, but the idea of being a so-called victim is quite trendy in latter 20th and early 21st centuries. Fewer and fewer individuals and nations as a whole like the idea of resonsibility and hence roll over to the victim position and think their real actions can or will be overlooked. Those who think they are less affluent always have a leg up on claimng the victim label.
As for the U.S., and as a legitimate Indian minority, I do not think the U.S. has avoided its responsibilities to past problems. In fact, America showcases the problems and has been on a century long mission to fix them. Museums are not the means to social responsibility. The massive apologies and programs that help those who (many generations ago) were brutialized by the American push for glory and riches are extensive and valuable in all areas--education, housing, employment etc. Since the 60s/70s, the responsibility now is for us to 'pick up the ball and run with it', so to speak.
Therefore, it strikes me that revolutions and mini revolutions such as civil rights legislation offer the open door for change in the way people act for themselves and towards others. In Russia, it seems, the open door in 1918 led to yet another dark room where revenge and blame were more in play than forgiveness, opportunity, and understanding.

1333

The Russian Revolution / Re: Soviet Life - What Was Gained From the Russian Revolution?

« on: October 30, 2004, 06:08:01 PM »

I don't think there was so much a disagreement with the attitudes about pre-Lenin Russia, rather a rudely youthful attitude about bringing up such things. So much for the current school system and their value placed on history and research!
Hopefully, feelings will mend.
I also think the comparing and contrasting of pre and post revolution Russia must be continually resurrected because it puts into perspective how and when the society changes and improves overall. The glamour and romance of the aristocracy is ever so engaging a subject; we have simply replaced it with movie stars and Donald Trump...all of whom care less about us working people.
If the Romanovs had not been slaughtered, there would be no "following" as it is today, I think. Like a Shakespearian tragedy, such things draw human attention and emotion and empathy and awe, which is OK. The IF's long history of self indulgence and greed at the expense of their subjects is a separate issue but one that actually makes the topic all the more intriguing, ie there are two sides to every coin, otherwise you wouldn't have a coin.

1334

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

« on: October 30, 2004, 04:40:47 PM »

It is hard to believe, but true, that Vicky was the artist. She was such a grand lady and empress in every way! In the portrait of little Waldemar, he looks sooooo much like his mother.

1335

The Hohenzollern / Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I

« on: October 30, 2004, 01:50:54 PM »

Hehehe! I too like to watch celebs and get most correct in matching the old and new pics. Severe traumas do wreck a person's appearance. But, even presidents, prisoners who get locked up as young people, even accident victims, retain a certain ID that, at worst, computer aging techniques could validate. It is not like Anastasia's ID was attempting to match her looks at 11 or 15 to 55 or 60; it was really quite a short time in terms of physical changes.
Nonetheless, poor AA and the real story of who she was is more interesting than her claim. Somehow, she crafted a near-perfect tale of facts and details that set the entire world arguing for 80 years. I think AA was an accomplise to one or more of the executioners, aided the dying Anastasia, downloaded tons of info from the grand duchess, and adopted Anastasia's ID. The real fate, hence, of Anastasia would be the big question in this scenario.
But, back to dear Cecilie....
What did Cecilie do during the second world war? Did she know Count von Stauffenburg and the other royal plotters against Hitler?