Messages

61

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven- part II

« on: August 20, 2013, 03:58:40 PM »

Yes, it was a joke.

hehehe! I got it. A good one! And probably works for several cousins.

62

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 20, 2013, 08:22:02 AM »

I thought the title was referring to 1883 and the period of concurrent imperialistic policies of leading European nations and the U.S. My mistake, but the except confuses.

63

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 19, 2013, 06:43:30 PM »

Marie, I think you should read the last two paragraphs of Ellla's post again.

I see your point, but then why is the title of the book gving the wrong impression? Marie is simply pointing out the obvious bais that is only unearthed or exposed in anecdotal comments. However, need to read the book to be sure.

64

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 19, 2013, 06:41:15 PM »

Though Wilhelm was ruling at the time most of this happened, was he personally associated with it in the way Hitler was?

Ann

Not that I ever knew before this small quote from what is a complete book.

65

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 15, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

I agree with Marie Valerie that The Netherlands did the right thing in not turning over Wilhelm. In fact, and in hind sight, the right thing to have done would have been to support his retaining his title and position, even as a figure head, while creating the obviously much needed new form of government.

I also agree with the two of you here. I'm simply suggesting that this falls into the hindsight is 20-20 category and not an indication of brutal negligence by Wilson and the allies. I'm also suggesting that the allies were justified in their skepticism of Germany's intentions...and considering what Germany's track record would end up being over the next quarter century, can you really blame them?

Track record? From 1871 to 1914 Germany particiapted in three wars. Great Britain 16. France 15. Great Britain actually did build an empire that "conquered the world" with domination over 23% of the world's population and about an equal control over land mass. I don't think if looking at track records, one could reasonably think the two major allies were gentle, peaceful, and non-aggressive.

66

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 15, 2013, 07:57:36 AM »

Unfortunately, Wilson was weak. To give him some positive upside, he was less of a liar and more of a ball-less, powerless, impotent leader who allowed Clemenceau and Lloyd George to dictate terms and essentially ignore his inputs. Wilson's name is all over the terms of the Armistice that was never implemented in the manner or spirit of its creation and content. Hence it appears as if Wilson was a liar and cheat. However, Clemenceau is the ultimate culprit in the end-of-hostilities debacle of lies, blackmaiil and extortions. He, and George, rolled completely over Wilson, and Clemenceau's behavior toward Wilson is particularlyl egregious considerising Wilson rescued him and his nation from sure defeat or at least a far less French-dominated peace.

Probably the most interruptive and destructive actions that led to the post-hostilities disasters was the communist-inspired revolution in Germany. While the Bolsheviks were officially seen as not acheiving leadership or guiding post war decisions, their insidiousness was a strong influencer of political results. Of course, Clemenceau capitalized on this additional blow to internal German stability which allowed him to further enact his agenda of vengance, reparations, and war guilt. Wilson evolved into little more than an interested bystander.

I agree with Marie Valerie that The Netherlands did the right thing in not turning over Wilhelm. In fact, and in hind sight, the right thing to have done would have been to support his retaining his title and position, even as a figure head, while creating the obviously much needed new form of government.

67

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 13, 2013, 02:58:44 PM »

Kitt, your family's experiences were similar to almost all ethnic-German families across the USA after 1914. My grandfather was forced to change his name in order to keep his job. He went from Heinrich Rosengarten to Patrick Rose. This was commonplace and quite sad. Even before the war, German immigrants (perhaps other ethniciites as well) were processed by immigration officials who force-changed their names. I know of a family whose ancestors arrived at Baltimore with the name of Waldenburg. The immigration officer instructed them that their new name was Johnson...take it or go home.

German farmers in Iowa were routinely attack by the KKK--yes, the KKK in Iowa--during the war with the purpose of searching the properties for hording, assumed to be destined for Germany. I know of one case where the farmer was murdered. This history is essentially undocumented and past down as word-of-mouth because no one cared back then or now. I think it is a good reminder of social injustices that so many wrongly think got their starts in the 1960s.

The anti-German craze even went to the extent of "biting off the nose to spite the face". The biggest industry in the nation as the 1920s came in was beer production and sales. Ethnic German brands controlled over 80% of the market share. The strong anti-German movement and lobby used their might and the German dominance of the beer industry to build the case for prohibition. It was probably the single greatest reason why prohibition was made into law.

68

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 13, 2013, 08:04:23 AM »

Several years ago I went through my grandfather's photos for a family scrapbook.  He had emigrated from Germany in 1911.  One of his treasured photos was one of Kaiser Wm. II.  Just an official  one of the Kaiser in uniform.  My family thought I was nuts, but I put in Grandpa's section.  I am glad I did. I guess he never forgot the Kaiser.
All the best, Kitt

The conventional and engrained view of the WWI and post WWI period in Anglo-American culture understates and dramatically overlooks the significant ethnic German sub culture of the period and the positive ties new immigrants retained until they were all but forbidden to do so. Kaiser Wilhelm and his family, particularly his wife and daughter were extremely popular during the belle epoque. My grandparents had pets named after the Kaiser and in fact kids were often nicknamed "Kaisy Bill" in ethnic German families. Another example, at the Germania Club in chicago, Kaiser Wilhelm and his family were prominently featured in photographs at the entrance. Depending on the age of your Grandfather when he arrived in the USA, his memory of the Kaiser and life in Germany was very likely more positive than negative, and his emigration was due to greater work opportunities than opposition to Wilhelm.

69

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Wilhelm II, Part 2

« on: August 11, 2013, 10:23:10 PM »

By today's standards, I was Wilhlelm II who was decades ahead of his time and his royal contemporaries who were out of touch. His quick goodwill tours were very popular with the locals and we must not overlook that his trip to Jerusalem left that city with a major hospital, financed by the Kaiser, that still exists today. I think he should be given high marks for taking his new job seriously and making his impact without months of tea parties and balls before getting down to business.

70

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiserin Augusta Viktoria (Dona)

« on: July 09, 2013, 10:11:44 AM »

Thanks for the image, CK. It is a beautiful portrait of Dona, who grew quite beautiful and lovely as she aged.

71

The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) / Re: Georg Donatus of Hesse, and his family

« on: June 28, 2013, 11:26:15 AM »

A very touching picture of Princess Cecilie holding her new-born daughter Johanna:



This and other treasures of her and her family can be found in this webpage:

http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/lan_ka_k/post281450040/

Enjoy!

Cecilie has a different appearance than her usual head-on photos. Her nose is more subtle, less downward curving.  She almost has a similarity to Catherine Zeta Jones. Great photo.

72

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

« on: June 21, 2013, 11:43:38 AM »

In the first half of the 20th century there was a Royal Navy practice of sending signals between ships in the form of biblical quotations. Unfortunately, few have the necessary scriptural knowledge these days.

Back to topic, yes, it's about time that FWI had a permanent burial. How about in the Friedenkirche itself - designed by his great-great-grandson Friedrich Wilhelm IV and incorporating a beautiful Byzantine mosaic which FWIV saved from a church in Italy which was about to be demolished?

Ann

That would be a good alternate place, and he'd only have to be moved a few feet. My guess is that the Church itself, being open to the public would necessitate his coffin being buried. His son is buried so it would seem perfectly fine historically and from a protocol view. As a very big rascal, fighter, and generally aggressive man, his being laid to rest in the Church of "Peace" might be conflicting.

73

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

« on: June 20, 2013, 11:48:03 AM »

I thought that too, but decided I'd better make that clear.

When I was doing history as a student, I did a course on 18th century Europe, where the lecturer was a great enthusiast for reading the letters between FWI and Frederick the Great, and also spent a good chunk of one lecture telling us all about FWI's deathbed, which lasted about six weeks, so plenty of time for good stories.

At one point someone thout to assemble a large choir outside the royal bedchamber to sing suitable hymns and anthems. One began, 'Naked came I into the world, naked will I leave it,' at which the king sat bolt upright and called for his uniform!
Then a chaplain arrived and declared, 'Now your Majesty, the end is very near and you must forgive all your enemies.' 'All,' said the king, 'Even George II?' 'All,' says the chaplain. 'Then are you quite sure I'm dying?' 'Yes.' 'Oh very well, I forgive all my enemies, but only if I'm actually dying.'

George II was Sophia Dorothea's brother, which suggests that married life in Potsdam was less than harmonious.

Ann

Excellent anecdote! Using Biblical verse is often interesting if not downright funny in certain situations. Parenthetically, I recall a good Pastor friend of mine whose close Pastor friend made a visit to the home of a parishioner who had not been seen at Church for some time. He rang the doorbell and knew the woman was inside. But she did not answer the door. He left his card in the door with a note, "Behold I stand at the door and knock", Revelations 3:20.

In a couple days, the Pastor recieved a note from the wayward parishioner that said "I was afraid because I was naked so I hid myself", Genesis 3:10

74

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

« on: June 20, 2013, 02:46:09 AM »

His original burial site was the Garrison Church in Potsdam, as was the case with his son Frederick the Great. He was removed for safe-keeping during the war, and after the Church was destroyed, his coffin was moved a few times to various locations until it finally found refuge in the Kaiser Friedrich mausoleum. On a recent visit there, I was told the placement was relatively recent, but some sources indicate his coffin has been there since shortly after Unification. Either way, it's an addition that seems awkward at best and doesn't seem right to dump this distance, very different relative in Fritz and Vicky's eternal resting place. I would have put him in a simple grave near Sanssouci where his son's memory would overshadow him completely.

I think it is quite appropriate. He was Fritz's GGG grandfather and he died in Potsdam. Where else would he be interred?

There are many, many places that Hohenzollern monarchs and their families are interred, not only in Potsdam, but also Berlin and Burg Hohenzollern. The simple fact that he was Fritz's GGG grandfather does not make sharing a mausoleum, designed for Fritz and family, appropriate, especially after 100 years of the hallowed place being specifically for the immediate family. Obviously, someone thought otherwise and plopped the old king at the feet of Fritz and Vicky between the two boys which I find inappropriate and disruptive.

75

The Hohenzollern / Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

« on: June 19, 2013, 02:44:05 PM »

How has Friedrich Wilhelm I come to be there temporarily?


I too doubt that he and Vicky would find much in common!

Ann

His original burial site was the Garrison Church in Potsdam, as was the case with his son Frederick the Great. He was removed for safe-keeping during the war, and after the Church was destroyed, his coffin was moved a few times to various locations until it finally found refuge in the Kaiser Frederich mausoleum. On a recent visit there, I was told the placement was relatively recent, but some sources indicate his coffin has been there since shortly after Unification. Either way, it's an addition that seems awkward at best and doesn't seem right to dump this distance, very different relative in Fritz and Vicky's etermal resting place. I would have put him in a simple grave near Sanssouci where his son's memory would overshadow him completely.