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Messages - jehan

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Tsarevich Alexei Nicholaievich / Re: Alexei's wife?
« on: June 20, 2008, 07:09:11 PM »
Marriage was pretty much impossible for the girls when the war started in 1914 (Olga, who is the eldest, would have been around nineteen at the time). There wouldn't have been any time to arrange it and it wouldn't be very joyful because of what was going on.

Alix didn't want to lose her daughters, but that doesn't mean she would pull them back from marrying, and same with Aleksei. But, the girls (and evidently Olga) didn't seem to have any interest in marrying a prince from another country. They wanted to stay in Russia and, being united and devoted to their parents, they didn't want to be far from Nicholas and Alix.

I don't know that we can ever know this for sure,but I doubt that this would have been true.  Olga did say at one point (when she was 18) that she wanted to stay in Russia, but she had just turned down Carol of Romania, and may have wanted to "save diplomatic face" and not offend the Romanians, even though she may have meant it at the time.  I don't think we can hold her words as gospel that she would have stuck to all her life.  Most people do not feel the same way at  30, or even 25, as they did at 18, and if she had met the right man, her mind might well have been changed.  She had really only been "on the marriage market" for a few months when the war started, and the others never really had a chance.  They might well have met a prince, nobleman, or even commoner who might have given them other ideas.  Maria in particular expressed a wish to marry and be a mother.  The others were very much girls of their class and generation- I'm sure that they expected to marry and have children eventually too.  I don't think they would have been happy little Grand Duchesses living with their parents into their 30s and older.  I highly doubt that they would have been happy never to leave home and have their own homes and families.  Give them a little credit for wanting to grow up eventually.

The problem with trying to guess what might have happened is that the family is pretty much "frozen in time" to us- as a close, united family with teenage children and very young women.  Remember that the war created an artificial atmosphere of closeness- there was really little other choice but to live together and not to travel to other places and meet people beyond the family/hospital (for the older girls) circles.  But  into the 1920s their world would have changed, even had there not been a revolution, and the family would not and COULD not have stayed the same, however much some might want them to stay at their 1916 or 1918 ages forever.

 And had Alix insisted on keeping them close (Which I doubt would have happened), they might well have become embittered old maids like their cousin Victoria of England, rather than the happy pretty girls we see them as in their youth.  And while none of them were terribly intellectual (Olga was perhaps as B+ student in a family of C students), I think that they all would have eventually found the life of an unmarried Grand Duchess around court very stultifying and boring over the years, especially when their brother succeeded (if he survived), and even more so if/when they became just cousins of the reigning emperor.  It's not like any of them would have pursued further education or had careers.


I personally rather suspect that "if" Nicholas had actually  had some place closer to succession to the English throne that he and his family would have been more readily granted asylum in England after the Revolution...

I am not an expert on the English (or rather, at the time it would have been Great Britain's and now the UK's) succession, but here is a quick rundown:

1. The Act of Settlement limited succession to descendants of the Electress Sophia of Hanover. So, any earlier relations to the British throne that Nicholas may have had would have been invalidated.
2. It was common practice with dynastic marriages that women marrying into the direct line of a ruling house would renounce their succession rights from the ruling house of their birth. Thus, it is likely that Princess Alice would have renounced her rights to her mother's throne for herself and her descendants, thus making it unlikely that either Alexandra or Alexei would have had any succession rights to that throne.
3. I don't see that any of Nicholas' surviving nieces or nephews (and their descendants) are listed in among of the 1500 some individuals currently listed (and the hundreds of excluded potential heirs due to Roman Catholic marriage) in the Succession.

It is my belief that had "Uncle Bertie" been alive, the question of asylum would never have come up - it would have been granted, period.

As far as I know, Nicholas was not a descendant of Sophia, so he was not in the line of succession.  I could be wrong there- if so it's an obscure line (Hesse perhaps?)

 I don't think that British Princesses did renounce their rights upon marrying foreigners, unless they married Roman Catholics (As Ena had to).  Certainly nobody questions Vicky's descendants being in the current line of succession, and the Norwegian House is listed as well.  (King Harald is around 62nd in line right now)

The Windsors / Re: Princess Margaret (1930-2002), & her family
« on: June 11, 2008, 10:38:51 PM »
Any discretion shown by Lord Snowdon would be more due to the generation he belonged to, rather than his class status, I would think. 

He and Princess Margaret did get up to quite a lot during their marriage and afterwards, but at least they were publicly discreet about it, which is more than can be said for some younger members of the family today.

Is it that they were more discreet, or that the press just wasn't omnipresent then as it is now?  And the paparazzi didn't really exist.  Edward (Duke of Windsor), wasn't exactly discreet, it's just that there was a press silence on his goings on, especially after he was King.  Would he have gotten away with as much as he did had he been born 50 years later? 

I wonder....

The Tudors / Re: Genealogy
« on: May 07, 2008, 07:27:41 PM »
Anyone here claim a Tudor in their ancestral line or by marriage? Just curious. I like genealogy.

Through my 2nd great aunt's great uncle, I'm a distant relative of the Howard family of Norfolk, Anne Boleyn, and Queen Elizabeth I.

Not a drop! ;-)  And I'm very proud of my descent from peasants and the working classes.

But mr. jehan is probably descended from Sir William Kingston, who was Constable of the Tower in Tudor times.  (He's the one to whom Anne Boleyn said "I have a little neck". )
Not a royal, but a connection with the times.

Having Fun! / Re: Bob Dylan's 'Desolation Row'... Romanov related?
« on: December 31, 2007, 04:07:15 PM »
This is certainly a wonderful song, but Dylan, as far as I know never had any interest in the Romanovs or the Russian revolution. If he did, he would probably had more sympathy with the oppressed workers than with royalty or nobility. It may be fun to try to get the lyrics to mean whatever you want them to (kind of like with Nostradamus), but I'm sure it's not what Dylan had in mind. 

That said, Dylan has never explained what he intended by the lyrics, and probably never will.  So feel free to guess.

But the first verse almost certainly refers to a lynching in the 1920s  in Duluth (he was born there, by the way), where 3 black men were hung by a mob.  And postcards were sold of the incident, which was quite infamous in its time.  And it was tried by a blind judge- or so the story goes.

It's full of literary references- Shakespeare, Steinbeck (the title probably was inspired by "Cannery Row"), Pound, Hugo folktales etc.  I think it is a pessimistic musing on Dylan's time- the mid twentieth century.  And he was probably on a lot of drugs too. ;-).

Or it could be that- in a quote from my favourite cartoon (Doonesbury) when Dylan was satirized in it many years ago "I just wanted in to rhyme, man!"

The Windsors / Re: Charles, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall
« on: December 26, 2007, 11:35:24 AM »
The book is of course patently ridiculous.  And I doubt that there is really much of a market for this kind of thing, except amongst the conspiracy theorists (but I suppose that there are more of them than there should be!) ;-).

Regarding the royal genealogies- I don't think that Charles has personally made any such claims, it's just that as Robert said- royal families have claimed such things for hundreds of years. years, and so if they claim the descent, then Charles by definition has the same descent.

I have seen genealogies where the Saxon kings claimed descent from Woden.  And of course the Roman Emperors claimed descent from the Olympian Gods (through Aeneas and his son).  It's just another way of legitimizing power.  But none of this in claimed by Charles (or any other member of the current Royal family AFAIK) personally.

Anastasia Nicholaievna / Re: Autism?
« on: December 23, 2007, 01:03:11 AM »
i quite agree
but.. can't there be a mild form of ADHD?
or ADD?

What do you mean? There's no such thing as a mild form of ADHD or ADD. If there was a mild form then the majority of all the children on earth would be on ritalin right now.

If you're intelligent but lack concentration, bright but lazy, and hyper and talk nonstop about silly things, then I should be on ritalin right now.
The whole thing is ridiculous.

How much research have you done on ADHD or ADD?

 I can tell you that there ARE various forms of it, ranging from mild to serious. I have 2 kids with ADD, a husband with it, and a father-in-law too.  Yes, it can be hereditary, although it isn't always.  They all have a milder form of it- not really hyper or bouncing off the walls, but in a form that affects concentration, organization, and completion of tasks.  Mr jehan and his father were of course undiagnosed, as back then it wasn't labeled as such, but their lives would have been much easier if they had known what their problems were (and are).

My daughter was diagnosed in the third grade.  She got to the point where she was not concentrating, completing work, or doing much of anything in school.  She had no friends because she was "weird" - tests with only her name on them, writing on herself etc.  Papers strewn all around her desk. Note she was NOT hyper, bothering anyone else or a discipline problem.  We did NOT put her on ritalin to "Shut her up" or make her behave.  She was only on it for school, not on weekends or holidays.  Once she was on ritalin (a low dose) she went to the top of her class, was placed in a gifted program, and everyone wanted to work with her because she was so smart.  She always was extremely bright, of course- she just couldn't complete work.  She was on ritalin until 11th grade, when she decided she could organize herself well enough and work with her problems. She hasn't taken it since. Today she is a bright university student, doing very well.

My son is younger, and still on his medication.  His case is similar, but now that he is on his medication he is doing well enough to probably get a full university scholarship next year with an average of over 95%
Neither of my kids would be where they are today without their diagnosis and treatment.  Neither were discipline problems, put on drugs to stop them bothering people.  Their ADHD affected only themselves, but thanks to some caring teachers and doctors they are doing very well today thank you.We did not put them on drugs without trying everything else first, including behaviour modification,  careful consideration and a certain amount of reluctance. We were also lucky that neither one had any side effects.  And remember that the drugs are a tool, not a cure.

Also remember that ritalin and others are stimulants.  If a "normal"l kid takes it, they will get a "high", not be calmed down.  It's on kids with ADD that it actually "works".

Please, I know this is getting very off topic, especially since we know that Anastasia did not have autism, and probably not ADD either.  Some kids ARE just "Active"- and Anastasia was probably just an averagely active kid, and further speculation is useless.  But this is a hot button topic for me, and please don't dismiss families who are doing their best coping with ADHD using whatever tools they can as "dumb".  Try doing some research and talking to people who are living with it first.

Maria Nicholaievna / Re: GDss Marie and Louis "Dickie" Mountbatten
« on: December 20, 2007, 09:49:20 AM »
Yes it does look like he is following Maria and Anastasia.  I'm thinking he is blushing in the pic cause he got caught lol.   That is a sweet photo of them.

While it is a nice picture, I'm sure they were all just going in the same direction.  Probably going somewhere together, along with the woman behind, the person in front who took the picture and probably a few others in front.  I wouldn't read too much into an isolated picture. ;-)

Nicholas II / Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« on: December 15, 2007, 04:28:17 PM »
Well, if any "kids" are reading this thread, and do not already know what they are, they will surely ask now. I do not get it though- kids see ads for viagra and other such products every day on tv, why should  this one be so sacrosanct?

And it's a little odd that the kids who post here need to be protected from talk about merkins and a passionate relationship between a loving couple, yet these same kids obsess over blood and screaming and EXACTLY how people  were murdered.  Seems a bit strange.

 Just saying.....   ;-)

By the way - the admins do a great job here- it must be an often thankless task too.

The Russian Revolution / Re: Poetry of World War I
« on: November 27, 2007, 06:53:29 PM »
Has anyone else read Vera Brittain's "Testament of Youth", or her war diaries?

She is a good writer and her writings are one of the few views of WW1 from a woman's perspective- she served as a VAD near the front and in England.  And she lost most of the young men she was close to (including her fiance and her brother).  After the war she became an outspoken pacifist.

Anyway- my favorite WW1 poem was written by her fiance Roland Leighton  a few months before he was killed in action December 1915.


Violets from Plug Street Wood,
Sweet, I send you oversea.
(It is strange they should be blue,
Blue, when his soaked blood was red,
For they grew around his head;
It is strange they should be blue.)

Violets from Plug Street Wood-
Think what they have meant to me-
Life and Hope and Love and You
(And you did not see them grow
Where his mangled body lay
Hiding horror from the day;
Sweetest it was better so.)

Violets from oversea,
To your dear, far, forgetting land
These I send in memory,
Knowing You will understand. (3)

Tatiana Nicholaievna / Re: Tatiana in "Nicholas and Alexandra"
« on: November 09, 2007, 09:40:35 AM »
personally i thought the actresses playing them were waaay to old.... :-\

Well, according to IMDB, at the time the movie was filmed (1970-71), the actresses were aged about  21 (Olga), 16 (Tatiana), 17 (Maria), and 14 (Anastasia).  So not too old, really, considering the movie did cover several years. 

The Final Chapter / Re: How did NAOTMAA die?
« on: October 30, 2007, 09:19:53 AM »
Yes woman can have hemophilia, but most of them are men. But, like is it mostly women who are the carriers? and sometimes men. But, like it only is carried by certain woman like Alice she had children and Victoria did not carry the disease, and yet Alix and Irene did their sons suffered from the disease.  Frederick died from the disease. But, Ernest was not affected by the disease and he was a male?  Like some of the mothers carried it is the boys that get affected? becuase some of them had some boys with and without hemophilia? and some of the girls were and not carriers. It is unsure if Ella carried the disease or not? since she did'nt have any children. How can most of the women get it? if their father has it, or carried it?

If you read the link above, which I posted yesterday, and which comes from the Canadian Hemophiliac Society, so it should be reliable- it's all explained clearly.

A male Hemophiliac has children with a normal woman- all their sons will be normal, all their daughters carriers.

A female carrier has children with a normal male.  Their sons have a 50% chance of being hemophiliacs, their daughters have a 50% chance of being carriers.

A female hemophiliac is possible only if the father is a hemophiliac and the mother is a carrier. They are very rare.

Sometimes hemophilia can spontaneously occur in a family with no known history of the disease.

The Final Chapter / Re: How did NAOTMAA die?
« on: October 29, 2007, 11:16:55 PM »
His daughters would all have been carriers of Hemophilia, although his sons would have been normal (unless Alexei married a carrier- possible if it was one of his cousins). 

Men do not carry the Hemophiliac Gene, the genetic trait is passed on through the mother and women only. If he had married a foreign princess with no medical history, the children male/ female would be perfectly healthy. Therefore only OTMA could have further spread this infliction.

Yes, they do.  Look at the second chart.  All the daughters will be carriers.

The Final Chapter / Re: How did NAOTMAA die?
« on: October 29, 2007, 05:01:57 PM »
Imagine how different the world would be if the Romanovs lived. Imagine if Alexei became tsar. How do you think Alexei would deal with the Holocaust, The Cold War, and communists? Who would Alexei have married? Would he be a good father?

Well if Alexei had lived and been Tsar, the revolution would not have happened, so no Communist Russia, eastern bloc or Cold War.  Communists, like other revolutionaries, would have been dealt with quite harshly, just like under his father. The holocaust- well he probably would have been as anti-semitic as his father and family, but the war alliances would have been different, so who knows?

As to his marriage and family, had he survived- who knows?  His illness would probably have meant his life was short.  His daughters would all have been carriers of Hemophilia, although his sons would have been normal (unless Alexei married a carrier- possible if it was one of his cousins).  We can endless bring up the names of suitable princesses, but he might have married any or none of them.  And we don't know enough about him to speculate as to his parenting skills.

The Windsors / Re: Prince William and Prince Harry in the Military
« on: October 24, 2007, 09:16:10 PM »
Military discipline doesn't appear to be having much of an impact on either Prince William or Prince Harry.

The pair went to Paris on Saturday to watch England be beaten by South Africa.   Afterwards they each had a 24-hour long drinking session with the members of the English rugby team and arrived home, falling off the aircraft bleary eyed and unsteady.   (To behave like this in Paris of all places - what kind of respect is that for their late mother's memory.)   

We seem to hear rather too much about these young mens' drinking and drunken habits and exploits.   It is an absolute disgrace men in their position are not setting a better example.   The UK is in the midst of an alchohol epidemic - particularly binge drinking among the young.   Many of those young people will suffer alchoholic liver disease by the time they reach thirty.   It is a blight on our society and on the future of our society and someone needs to take these princes in hand and spell out their responsibilities - not just to the nation, but to themselves.


I don't think that William and Harry are behaving any differently than any other young officer.  The drinking and the partying are not really out of line with "military discipline" on any base, and are probably exaggerated by the press anyway.  I have lived on army bases and know many people currently and formerly in the military- both army and navy and of all ranks.  I was an army wife myself, before Mr. jehan left the army.  I don't see anything in the princes' behaviour that is really out of line with young men trying to fit in to military culture.

  The princes are still young, and seem to be able to carry out their duties (military and otherwise) very well and the press is ready to pounce on anything that might put them in a bad light.  I wouldn't be too quick to judge them- they will grow up and out of it soon enough.  Now if they are still like this in 10 years, I might worry!

If the press had been as intrusive earlier in the 20th or 19th centuries, the behaviour/partying of David Prince of Wales and the Duke of Kent (To say nothing of QV's elder sons!) would look far worse!

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