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Messages - bell_the_cat

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The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« on: September 01, 2005, 12:32:50 PM »
Yes........(horrible vision of Anne trying unsuccessfully to squeeze into the early eighteenth century equivalent of ski-pants and having the whole lot shipped of to America).

Back to topic, does anyone know how much she weighed, say in 1702 and what she finally weighed in 1714?

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« on: September 01, 2005, 02:21:25 AM »
I expect he would have to have them taken in though.
Or maybe she sent the ones that she couldn't get into any more. ;D

French Royals / Re: Queens of France
« on: August 31, 2005, 03:05:50 PM »
well she wasn't queen for very long!

Don't they have Maurice Druon at the library these days? - I think he's still alive!

French Royals / Re: Queens of France
« on: August 31, 2005, 02:32:43 PM »
Hey, what about Clémence d´Hongrie 1293-1328 second wife of Louis X?

Prince Lieven, unless you haven't already I highly recommend reading "The  Accursed Kings" by Maurice Druon. The third book (of seven)is about Louis' marriage to Clémence. It's a long story, hence the seven books, but basically Louis has his first wife strangled and marries again quickly to get an heir. He dies, but Clémence is pregnant. She has a son (King Jean I 1316), but the baby dies after they foolishly allow the evil countess Mahaut d'Artois to hold the baby at the christening. Gripping stuff - in book seven it turns out the baby (maybe) didn't die after all!

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 31, 2005, 02:12:19 PM »
Margaret Logie

I’ve moved Margaret up the list as it’s pertinent to the discussion about papal dispensations. I’m glad I did as it sounds like she was quite a gal.

Margaret Logie, née Drummond was the second wife of David II. He was the son of Robert the Bruce and ascended the throne at the age of four. He wasn’t like his father at all, being rather a “Mr Invisible” type. He was imprisoned by the English for eleven years (1346-1357) and no one really noticed he was gone!

His first marriage to Joan of England (sister of Edward III) was also a flop – no children, and when he was let out of the Tower and allowed to return to England, she went back in the opposite direction and remained in England until she died in 1362.

When David got back to Scotland he took up with Margaret Logie, a young and beautiful widow – but a commoner really. She had a son by her marriage to Sir John Logie. She was also a personality and definitely wore the trousers in the relationship. When Joan died, she persuaded David to marry her, and for a few years called the shots in Scotland – she had the Stewarts thrown into prison for a time, for example.

Perhaps David was hoping she would provide him with an heir, but she didn’t (must have been his fault then). By the end of the 1360s he had taken up with another beauty, Agnes Dunbar, and as they say “the worm turned”. David divorced her in 1369.

However Margaret wasn’t beaten. She contested the divorce, and probably remembering the story of the Stewart/Mure dispensation and how it had taken so long to come through, decided to move to Avignon so she could put pressure on the Pope to hurry things up.

Even being in the same town as the Pope didn’t help very much. David died in 1371 before he could marry for a third time. Margaret kept up the pressure though – it wasn’t that she still wanted to be married to David, but she wanted to be Queen, and she had taken enough money out of Scotland to see it through – or so she thought. She died in 1375 still contesting the divorce. I believe the case ran for a bit after her death (which seems a bit pointless).


The Drummond family were a bit like the Hepburns (also like the Villiers and the Keppels) in that they liked to go out with royalty. Annabella Drummond was the Queen of Robert III, though I’m not sure how she was related to Margaret. One hundred years later, another Margaret Drummond was the mistress of James IV and was poisoned with her two sisters for the trouble.

(My theory now is that during the Avignon years unless you were well in with the King of France, your chances of getting anything dealt with within a normal lifetime were nil. The Pope would simply pass the case on to the ecclesiastical lawyers to chew over for a couple of decades. Robert wasn’t a King at the time so his application went even further to the bottom of the pile.)

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« on: August 31, 2005, 12:54:26 AM »
I like the story of Anne's cousin Edward Hyde who was governor of New York in the early 1700s. He may or may not have been gay but he liked to dress in women's clothing - and dressed up as Queen Anne saying that as he was the queen's representative it was OK! It must have been quite a sight.

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 30, 2005, 03:52:05 PM »
Yes they did get a dispensation but it wasn't issued until two months after the marriage. Mary was in a hurry.

Luckily the pope backdated it to before the wedding.

I still can't fathom why it took thirteen years for Robert II to get his!

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 30, 2005, 02:08:58 PM »
Patrick Hepburn - yes that's the one, "Bothwell" Bothwell´s father.

About Robert II and Elizabeth Mure. I read one reason that they didn't marry until ten years after they started having children was that they were waiting for the Pope to give them special permission to marriage because they were too closely related. Does anyone know exactly how they were related?

Were first cousins allowed to marry in those days?

I also read that Saint Margaret when she arrived in Scotland in 1068 was so appalled at the incestuous marriages in barbarous Scotland that she had the rules tightened up. No longer could you marry your stepmother nor would you be able to marry your (shock) deceased brother's widow.

The killjoy.

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 30, 2005, 01:40:58 PM »
Hello Blanche!

Here's Mary of Guelders:

I’ve been interested in Mary since I visited Falkland Palace in Fife. There’s a beautiful garden known as Queen Mary’s Walk, which was laid out by James II for his wife.

Mary was born I guess around 1432. Her father was the Duke of Gelderland (Guelders), which is now half in Germany half in the Netherlands. Her uncle was Philip the good, the Duke of Burgundy - and he was extremely rich!

Around 1448 /9 when James was looking for a wife the hundred years war was drawing to a close, and England was batting an extremely sticky wicket. Suddenly everyone wanted to be friends with the Scots! Philip the Good offered James the hand of his niece and a pretty substantial dowry. James sisters also made top-notch marriages by the way.

James and Mary married in 1449. The Duke of Burgundy sent 14 ships to accompany her to Scotland. The money came in handy making the Scottish palaces more comfortable, and I think James and Mary were happy. Three sons and two daughters were born, the eldest son being the future James III.

James spent his time dealing with the Douglas family (he had to have them all murdered twice!). In 1460 he decided the time was right to have a go at England, as that country was in the middle of the Wars of the Roses. He laid siege to the fortress of Roxburgh which was a massive English garrison in the middle of Scottish territory.

When Mary arrived to cheer the troops along, James arranged to have his new cannon fire a shot to welcome her. He was standing rather too near - the cannon backfired and the King was killed instantly. He was twenty-nine years old and left Mary as regent for their eight year old son.

Mary’s regency didn’t go badly. Most of the ruling was done by Bishop Kennedy, who’d helped out in the previous regency. Scotland won Berwick-on-Tweed back for a short time! Mary’s money helped to tide things over.

Mary didn’t waste time finding a man. Her lover was Adam Hepburn, the Master of Hailes. This started a tradition in the Hepburn family of consoling the widowed Queens of Scotland. I don’t know who they all were: one was linked to Mary of Guise apparently. Another was of course the Earl of Bothwell, the third husband of Mary Queen of Scots. I can’t imagine Margaret Tudor missing out on the fun so there was probably a Hepburn in there as well (does Umigon know?)

She didn’t have too long to live – she died in December 1463 at the age of about 30. Mary sounds like a good sort, all in all. I think it would have been better for her son if she’d been around a bit longer.

The Stuarts of Scotland / ,Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 30, 2005, 12:33:13 AM »
Hi Prince_Lieven

Yes, it was the children of Elizabeth Muir and Robert II who were  (maybe) illegitimate. She had been his mistress and they were married (if at all) in pretty dubious circumstances. At this time (1340s), I don't think he was expecting to become King.

The children of Euphemia were legitimate, she was, as you say, the daughter of the Earl of Ross.

One of them was Walter, the Earl of Atholl, whose claim to the throne was the cause of the murder of James I (see above). Before he was executed the old man was forced to wear a red hot iron crown, in allusion to his ambition to be king.

I don't know why he had two sons called Walter, that seems to me to be a bit odd, Walter One and Walter Two.

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 29, 2005, 02:46:58 PM »
Thank you, Prince Lieven

Here's Yolande de Dreux, another of my favourites, just 'cos I like the name:

Yoleta (Yolanda) de Dreux

I like the name Yolanda – it’s quite common in Italy I think, and Gilbert & Sullivan fans will recognise it as Iolanthe.

She was the second wife of Alexander III. He had been married to Edward I’s sister Margaret. They had had their ups and downs (which is another story) but she produced two sons and a daughter before dying in 1275. Their sons, David and Alexander died in 1281 and 1283/4 respectively and their daughter Margaret Queen of Norway died in 1283 giving birth. She left behind her new-born daughter Margaret and a fourteen year old (!) husband King Erik. Baby Margaret was Alexander’s only living descendant.

At this point (why do I get the feeling Alexander was a putter-offer?) he decided it might be a good idea to get married again. And in 1285 he married Yolanda. I think he may have also been trying to move away from the English connection. Edward’s idea of a family party had been to invite his brother in law to a reunion and then pretend that Alexander had really been paying him fealty as overlord of Scotland.
So being connected with one of the great families of France might have seemed like a good idea. Also Yolanda was probably only a teenager!

They married in November 1285. Less than six months later he was dead when his horse fell over the cliff with him on it (as Kimberly has mentioned on another thread). You can see the spot if you look across the Firth of Forth from Edinburgh on a good day. He was supposedly hurrying to see his new bride, but I’m not sure I believe that – they’d been married for five months already!

So Yolanda was the shortest reigning scottish queen ever.

It took Erik (another procrastinator) four years to send his daughter to be crowned Queen of Scotland. Margaret the “Maid of Norway” set sail in 1290, but never arrived. She died in Orkney in September 1290 (Orkney at that time belonging to Norway!). She was seven years old. King Edward took the opportunity to assert his claim to suzerainty over Scotland and the rest is history, i.e. Braveheart and so on. It was a terrible time for Scotland and really the end of a “golden age” of prosperity. If only had married again a bit sooner….

I’ve often wondered what became of Yolanda (Yoleta). Does anyone know what happened to her? I like to think she returned to France and married a rich nobleman.

Update: I’ve just done a search for her and yes! she married Arthur de Montfort in 1293, dying in 1323 – so a happy end after all (for her if not for Scotland ).

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 28, 2005, 02:43:38 PM »
Joan Beaufort

Joan Beaufort was the daughter of John Beaufort the duke of Somerset. She was born about 1406 and was the niece of King Henry IV of England. Due to the unfortunate circumstance that her father was born while her grandfather’s second wife was still alive she had no claim on the English throne (this didn’t seem to be a problem for her niece Lady Margaret “Mags” Beaufort though).

When she was about 18 years old she met and fell in love with King James I of Scotland who was at that time a “guest” of the English king in the Tower of London.
James was imprisoned from 1406-1424. In fact he was quite well treated and received a good education. He wrote a very beautiful poem “the King’s Quhair” (“The King’s book”) which was dedicated to Joan. Their marriage was the reason he was allowed back to Scotland.

James and Joan were crowned at Scone in May 1424. His reign can best be described as a successful attempt to modernise Scotland, and James was by all accounts an able and attractive ruler. James and Joan had several children including the future James II. However as all modernisers find out there are always people who don’t like the changes. This group formed itself around the family of the Earl of Atholl (the son of Robert II and Euphemia of Ross who argued that Robert II’s first marriage had been illegal). This was to be his undoing.

In February 1437 James and Joan were at Perth when a group of conspirators burst into their apartment. Joan and her ladies attempted to fend of the assassins while James (doesn’t sound very brave, I know) tried to escape down the toilet! Inadvertently he had ordered the very same sewage channel to be bricked up a few days before because his tennis balls kept rolling in. To cut a long story short he could not escape and was stabbed to death.

I think the murderers must have regretted leaving Joan alive, because she wreaked a terrible revenge on them. Everyone involved including the aged Earl of Atholl was cruelly (and I mean cruelly) put to death. I can’t say I blame her, as the future of her children (and the country) was at stake.

Joan married again quite soon and had a second family with James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorne (cool name!). She lived to see her son attain his majority, dying in 1445 at the age of about forty, not bad for those days. I think she must have been quite a go-getting sort of person. I imagine her doing a lot of the running in her courtship of James (though I’ve no primary sources to prove this!). Also her second marriage shows that she wasn’t the sort to cry over spilt milk and could pick up the pieces and get on with her life.

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 28, 2005, 01:21:19 PM »
I forgot to mention the four queens regnant (sorry it was my first post!):

Margaret Maid of Norway 1283-1290 reigned 1286-1290
Mary I 1542-1587  reigned 1542-1567
Mary II 1662-1694 reigned 1688/9-1694
and Anne 1665-1714 reigned 1702-1707

The Stuarts of Scotland / Re: Queen Consorts
« on: August 28, 2005, 05:11:54 AM »
Here is a list of queens consort of Scotland up to the Union of the Crowns in 1707. Hope I haven’t missed any – I’ve started with St Margaret which passes over Lady Macbeth already –too bad!

Margaret of England 1045-1093, wife of Malcolm III Canmore
? Ethreda (daughter of Gospatric Earl of Northumberland), wife of Duncan II
Sibylla (illegitimate daughter of Henry I) d.1122, wife of Alexander I
Matilda of Northumberland 1074-1130, wife of David I
Ermengarde of Beaumont (crazy name, crazy lady! ;D) 1160-1233, wife of William the Lion
Joan of England (sister of Henry III) 1210-1238, first wife of Alexander II
Marie de Coucy b.1218/9, second wife of Alexander II
Margaret of England (daughter of Henry III) 1240-1275, first wife of Alexander III
Joleta (Yolanda) of Dreux, second wife of Alexander III
Isabelle de Warenne b.1253, wife of John Balliol
Elizabeth of Ulster 1289-1327, second wife of Robert the Bruce
Joan of England (another one, sister of Edward III)1321-1362, first wife of David II
Margaret Logie (divorced 1369) d.1375, second wife of David II
Euphemia of Ross d.1387, second wife of Robert II
Annabella Drummond 1350-1402, wife of Robert III
Joan Beaufort (niece of Henry IV) c.1406-1445, wife of James I
Mary of Gelderland d.1463, wife of James II
Margaret of Denmark 1456-1486, wife of James III
Margaret Tudor (daughter of Henry VII) 1489-1541, wife of James IV
Madeleine of France (daughter of Francois I) 1520-1537, first wife of James V
Mary of Guise 1515-1560, second wife of James V
Anne of Denmark 1574-1619, wife of James VI
Henrietta Maria of France (sister of Louis XIII) 1609-1669, wife of Charles I
Catharine of Braganza 1638-1705, wife of Charles II
Mary of Modena 1658-1718, second wife of James VII

The last four were also Queens of England. I think Margaret Tudor has her own thread, but the others are relatively unknown – undeservedly, as they all had fascinating lives. Many of them were not very significant as Queens consort but came to their own when their husbands died on them, leaving them to be regents for their under-age children. This happened to Ermengarde de Beaumont (briefly), Marie de Coucy, Joan Beaufort, Mary of Gelderland, Margaret Tudor and Mary of Guise. All were foreign princesses trying to rule Scotland with varying success.

I’m not sure whether Ethreda was alive at the time her husband was on the throne.

Which ones would you like to know about? My favourite is Ermengarde de Beaumont – asides from the great name, she sounds like a very practical person and founded the abbey of Balmerino in Fife. Other favourites: Joan Beaufort and Mary of Gelderland because of their “hands on” regencies.

Least favourite:
(St) Margaret – she’s controversial in Scotland (I believe) because of her policy of degaelicisation i.e. suppressing the use of the Gaelic language in the lowlands.

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