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Messages - Bourgogne

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106
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 19, 2008, 03:18:14 PM »
Speaking of families of antiquity and how they rank... there is an amusing story of Marie Antoinette who had a tiff with her Sister-in-law Maria Therese of Savoy married to the Comte d'Artois ,the younger Brother of Louis XVI. Finally driven to distraction Marie Antoinette said if it is good enough for the Queen of France insinuating her Hapsburg lineage certainly outranked. The Comte d'Artois said Oh, I thought you were angry I see now you are joking!  I think this story comes from Bearne.

It has been mentioned by several Historians that Maria Therese always thought the Bride of the Dauphin should have come from the House of Savoy and was miffed!

Yes! But the Comte d'Artois made another scathing answer to his sister-in-law Marie-Josèphe of Savoy ("double" sister-in-law, since she was the sister of Marie-Thérèse and the wife of the comte de Provence, brother of Louis XVI and Artois). Marie-Josèphe was always talking of the importance of the House of Savoy, and one day, Artois said: "Stop it! WE were already kings of France for centuries, in  the time you all were not even dukes of the marmots!"

That's what I was saying, for the Bourbons there was in the world NOTHING best than their own house...

107
The Hohenzollern / Re: Question about and/or Help with Picture(s)
« on: September 18, 2008, 08:30:48 PM »
Do you have a portrait of him when he was young.

Here you are! He's quite good looking here.

And look, on this portrait you understand where Louise did get her "mischievous" face from, don't you?




108
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 18, 2008, 08:12:53 PM »
The Romanov match would have been interesting but i believe as history has repeated itself recently with the Oldenburg marriage, that a future Queen of France must be RC.  As regards the Romanov's being parvenu.... the Gotha always places them under the Oldenburg lines which would make them a family of great antiquity.

Yes, of course, since Peter III, the Romanov are not really Romanov, but Holstein-Gottorp, therefore Oldenburg. But they kept the name Romanov and reigned on Russia only because they were Romanov by the women. So, as souvereign of Russia, they were "parvenu", the first Romanov emperor of Russia dating from 1613... The Capetians, exclusively by the men, were kings of France since 987, and by the women since about 480 ... And they were veeeeeeeery aware of this little difference...

109
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 17, 2008, 09:08:32 PM »
I think the Radziwills were not bad either. Princess Louise of Prussia married into that family and Wilhelm I almost married Princess Elisa Radziwill.

The daughters of Archduke Karl Stepan married his two daughters into both houses indicate they are both good enough for a Hapsburg....


Yes, of course! But don't you think Czartorisky are all the same just a little bit more "high-ranking"? I don't know, that's just my feeling, maybe unfounded...

110
The Hohenzollern / Re: Question about and/or Help with Picture(s)
« on: September 17, 2008, 08:55:03 PM »
Glad Luise did not look like her father...

That's what I was thinking too! But he was not bad when he was young. And actually, she had a little something of him... when he was young!

111
The Hohenzollern / Re: Question about and/or Help with Picture(s)
« on: September 16, 2008, 05:00:21 PM »


Is this Carl of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, the father of Queen Louise of Prussia?

Regards, Gabriella.

Yes, indeed, he's the father of Queen Louise of Prussia. By the way, he's got the same face on his other portraits, with this a bit large "turned-up" nose.

112
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:52:57 PM »
Well...The Radziwill and Jamoyski are good families too, both married into Royalty.

Yes, or the Potocki too, for example... You're completely right, they ware very good families too, without a doubt! Very good in itself, but not enough for an union with the "king of France".

The Czartorisky were ahead of all the other polish houses, at least I think so. But by the way, even the Czartorisky were hardly acceptable. In her wonderful ''Mémoires'', the baronne d'Oberkirch explains how much the duke and the duchess Friedrich-Eugène of Wurtemberg were furious when their younger son Ludwig-Friedrich secretely married in 1784 a Czartorisky. The baronne d'Oberkirch, very close friend of the young man's sister (the future impress of Russia) interceded for him with his parents, and they finally accepted half-heartedly this union... And only because the baronne d'Oberkirch reminded them that the Czartorisky were all the same a branch of the Jagello...

And really, the Wurtemberg were not so overproud as the Bourbons...

In his ''Mémoires'', Saint-Simon describes maliciously the complete disdain of the french court for the queen of Poland Marie-Casimire Sobieska, when she visited France. He's greatly surprised to see that she expected to be treated like a Queen! "She was so sure of herself! Funny! A queen of Poland...!"

When Louis XV married Mary Lesczinska, the duchess of Lorraine (Louis XIV's niece) wrote some priceless things about this poor princess. Basically, it was "what's that polish "social climber", of wich nobody can even mention the grandparents...?"


113
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 14, 2008, 06:08:23 PM »
A Polish Princess ? Her mother was a Hapsburg and her Aunts (by marriage) were from the House of Savoy. What did she got that idea ? Which Polish House ?

JF Chiappe explains that in his book too. Marie-Thérèse wanted "some new blood" for Henry. And precisely she wanted to "go out of the eternal weddings Bourbon-Savoy-Habsburg"...!

The polish house envisaged was the Czartorisky (what else?, would say who you know...).

And now, here we are, I come back to my russian wedding: the duke of Lévis, close friend of Henry, explained that (relationships between Russia and Poland were very controversial), it was impossible to marry a polish princess after having broken with Nicholas I's niece...

114
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 05, 2008, 05:59:24 PM »
Quote
Only gives version? What's his source?...though we are off topic now but in Russian sources I've never came across of Nicholas I supporting his niece converting into Catholicism.

Well, I don't really know why you (and/or your russian sources) don't want to admit this, but it's like that. All biographers of the Comte de Chambord relate the same thing, certainly Nicholas I wanted two ceremonies (one catholic and one orthodox), but he was ok for the conversion after that. And whithout any doubt, we know that the wedding finally failed because the duchess d'Angoulême didn't want a Romanov. If the conversion to catholicism had not been accepted by the czar, the duchess didn't even need to say anything, because the talks would have already been interrupted without her intervention.

For Olga, queen of Wurtemberg, I'm perplexed if she was not converted to protestantism. She's buried near her (protestant) husband, in the same grave, in the crypt of the Old Castle (protestant) chapel in Stuttgart. Which seems to be impossible if she was still orthodox.

115
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 03, 2008, 07:07:30 AM »
Thank you for your vindication. I always thought something was wrong with her. Yes a lost opportunity with Grand Duchess Elizabeth. Any photo ot painting of her ?

Here you are. But, as Beladona said, she gave only a daughter (stillborn) to her husband Adolf of Nassau.

 

116
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 03, 2008, 06:47:45 AM »
Nicolas I was delighted, and authorized her niece's conversion to catholicism.

Probably Nicholas I  was delighted but he unlikely would have gave his permission to converting his niece to catholicism. There was a rule that a born Russian Grand Duchess remains Orthodox in any case.
Certainly we can point at Grand Duchess Vera Konstantinovna (1854-1912), Duchess of Wuerttemberg, who in the beginning of the XX cent. converted into another faith BUT she was old enough then, had been living abroad for many years and did't have really strong ties to her Romanov relatives. And after all the XX century is not the reign of Nicholas I, times are different.
So delighted as Nicholas I was he would never in his life permit to his niece convert to catholicism.

I'm sorry, but in this case Nicholas I had explicitly permited his niece's conversion to catholicism, as he said it to his brother-in-law Friedrich-Wilhelm IV...
There was only a condition : the conversion had to take place after the wedding.
A few years earlier, talks about a possible union between Henry's father, the duke of Berry, and one of Nicholas I's sisters had already posed the problem of the religion. The same solution had been accepted by the czar. In vain, in this case, the king of France, Louis XVIII, required a preliminary conversion - and at the end, Romanov had been already considered as being not "uptown" enough (if I may say!). It's true that the crown was in Romanov family since 1603, and for the Bourbons, capetian branch, since 987... So, when Alexander was received in Paris, Louis XVIII was always in an armchair, and the czar had only a chair. The czar was revolted by such an obvious scorn. He showed it when he left Paris, because, as was customary, he had to offer a set of jewels to the duchess of Angoulême, Louis XVIII's niece and "first lady" of France at this time ; he offered only a cheap malachite necklace. The duchess of Angoulême gave it to her first chamber maid!
 
What we were talking about, I suppose that catholicism and orthodoxy being not so far, the czar was less uncompromising than in the case of a conversion to protestantism.

Anyway, did'nt Olga, queen of Wurtemberg, Nicholas I's daughter (1822-1892), convert to protestantism? She even founded in Stuttgart an order of Protestant nursing nuns, the Olgaschwesternschaft...

117
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: September 02, 2008, 02:06:28 PM »
Wait a second. There is no proof he was sterile, just a possibility. However the bride was not in her first flush of youth nor was she look too keen on sex. One must remember Chambond's mother was a "hot" Princess from Naples who gave birth to many children on her second marriage. Chambord's father also was lusty and had quite a few bastards. One of his last words was to his wife was to care for his bastards. From this my bet would be on the good & pious bride than the groom who was born of such lusty parents.

There is no proof that Marie Therese was unable to have children, just a possibility. * If you have a source (an iron-clad source) for her alleged frigidity, please produce it – if you can.  Thus far, no one has produced a quote to the effect that she refused to try to have a child.  Just because you yourself might not have wanted to snuggle up to her due to her congenital birth defect, which was not her fault, and which made her something less than a supermodel, doesn’t mean that she wouldn’t have liked to snuggle up to someone. The quotes that you and others have produced in earlier posts (including the Comte de Chambord thread) reveal that she was depressed.  No wonder: anyone married to Henri, who had all the personality and charisma of a bump on a log, would have been depressed.  Further, as Norbert noted, it was commonplace in that era (and earlier eras, and later eras) to hold women responsible for lack of children in order to spare the precious male ego.  No wonder that she blamed herself (rightly or wrongly) for her childlessness and sank into depression.   

You expressed approval of Henri’s mother on the grounds that she was “hot”, irrespective of the fact that her promiscuity and stupidity ruined her political and social standing. She went from legitimist hero to zero as a result of knocking boots with an unnamed lover during her foolish effort to overthrow Louis Philippe. Her reputation was not salvaged by her hasty secret marriage to an Italian nobleman after she was released from jail and kicked out of France along with her illegitimate daughter.  She hopefully claimed that she'd been married to the Italian all along (yeah right) but, horror of horrors, even though she was really "hot", no one believed her and her reputation remained in the gutter.  Do you think that Henri was brought up to believe that his mother's example was a good one to follow?

You also expressed approval of Henri’s “lusty” father, who had many illegitimate children.  Worse, his secret (annulled) marriage to Amy Brown led to rumors that they’d had a son who was the rightful heir to the throne, which led to an unpleasant whispering campaign.  Do you think that Henri was brought up to believe that his father's example was a good one to follow?

On a final note: you seem to be suggesting that Henri was a virile and lusty man but you don’t provide any proof i.e. a list of his illegitimate children and/or mistresses.  If you read the autobiographies of Louise, ex-Crown Princess of Saxony and her brother, Leopold Wolfling, you’ll find that they had interesting things to say about their mother (Henri’s niece).  Louise and Leopold described her as a straitlaced religious bigot, not as someone who was, ahem, hot to trot.  I believe that this was learned behavior on her part.  I believe that the lustiness of Henri’s parents and the scandals said lustiness caused probably gave Henri (and his sister and her children) mixed feelings at best about sex. 

* As I recall, Abraham Lincoln suffered from the same thing Marie Therese did: one side of his face (I think one side of his entire body) was larger than the other.  He managed to produce several children despite this.


Anyway, the asymmetry of Marie-Therese's face would have nothing to do with her sterility. And this, just for a very simple reason: this assymetry was not congenital. It's was only the consequence of her difficult birth. The obstetrician made a bad application of the forceps on her face and she was left like that...

But, despite your "feminist" argumentation, I'm sorry, it's more than probable that the sterility was her responsability, and not her husband's responsability...

Jean-François Chiappe, in his biography of the Comte de Chambord, report that Marie-Therese had gynecological problems since her very young age. After that, she had a difficult puberty, and all her life long, irregular and very painful menstruation...

Incidentally, "anyone married to Henri, who had all the personality and charisma of a bump on a log, would have been depressed", do you say. I don't know where you found that. It's very inexact. All the people who described the life in the intimity of Frohsdorf say the same thing: Henry was funny, cheerful, even "dazzling". With the crowned heads as well as with the small farmers. Especially when he was with his sister, the duchess of Parma. It was then "a firework of jokes, never nasty, but always funny". One day, an archiduchess was invited for a great dinner. He disguised his friend, the count of Damas, in a coachman, and when she arrived, he said to her: "Oh! Please forgive me, but my coachman's dream was to have dinner with an archiduchess, I could not refuse, I seated him at your side." The princess was upset and was sulking during all the dinner, and only after, Henry said the truth to her, who laughed a lot about this hoax, with all other guests.

One day, during a reception, everybody bowed deeply when he approched, and he said : "Oh, I see, this night, it's open ass!"...
 
But, for Marie-Therese, everybody is unanimous. She was absolutely sinister, and the worst is that she knew it... The comtesse de Chevigné, one day, hade to make a promenade with Marie-Therese. It was so sad that, overwhrought, she ended up saying out loud to herself (Marie-Therese was deaf too, since her young age... She was complete!) : "My God! What a bore!". But for once, Marie-Therese understood. She said :"My poor child! I'm sorry..."

To answer to Eric Lowe, in fact, Henry was in love with the grand-duchess Elisabeth of Russia, Nicolas I's niece ( grand-duke Michel's daughter), he met her in Jüterlock in 1843. The king of Prussia asked to his brother-in-law, the Czar, if he would be ok. Nicolas I was delighted, and authorized her niece's conversion to catholicism. But Marie-Therese, Henry's aunt (daugnter of Louis XVI), was opposed to this alliance. For the proud princess, Romanov were a too recent dynasty, definitively not prestigious enough for a future Queen of France... The talks between Henry and Nicolas were stopped. Anyway, Elisabeth died very young, but she most probably would have had time enough to give a child (and maybe a son?) to Henry... What a pity...

118
French Royals / Re: Impératrice Eugénie
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:25:21 AM »
This one is identified as Duchesse of Alba, but it's almost too simillar to Eugenie, isn't it?

Nice!!!


I've got a beautiful reproduction of a portrait of Paca by Winterhalter, so I can assure that this is Paca, indeed. I'll post here the portrait by Winterhalter in a couple of days. I don't have the book at hand for now!

119
French Royals / Re: Impératrice Eugénie
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:15:18 AM »
I would like to see photos of Eugenie in her older age, for the most of paintings show her when she was younger. Does anyone have them ?

A photo of the Empress in 1920, the year she died. It's perhaps my favourite picture of her. So touching...






120
French Royals / Re: Count and Countess de Chambord
« on: August 21, 2008, 04:53:17 AM »
Here I wound just black and white portrait of her,and if anyone of you have her colour portrait,please post it!

You never will be able to find this portrait in colours, because he was destroyed by a bombardment in 1945... Today he's just known through old black and white photos, and by an engraving by Gérard. Black and white too, of course...

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