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Messages - Bourgogne

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French Royals / Re: King Louis Philippe and his family
« on: November 14, 2009, 09:56:43 AM »

Charles X, not Louis XVIII...  It was just a slip...

Moreover, about Louis XVIII, Louis-Philippe himself said to Charles X, when the King informed him that he was now "Royal Hignhess" :

- I must say, Sire, that the late King never wanted to admit this...
- Yes, I know, he had a little foible about this, some ideas which I don't think fair, but you must agree that your situation is a little awkward...

Marie-Amélie reports all this very interesting conversation between Charles X and her husband in her "Journal"...

French Royals / Re: King Louis Philippe and his family
« on: November 13, 2009, 05:28:08 PM »
Well, I must confess I don't find this ridiculous... Or I should say I'm a bit ridiculous myself, because I find all these questions of Etiquette rather fascinating!

But it was a typically french obsession. If you read the Mémoires of Saint-Simon, you're astounded how he can write ten or twenty pages about an armchair to give or not to give to this prince, when he's in front of this other prince, more or less high-ranking than the first, and so on (read for example the page about the visit of the duke of Lorraine in Paris, to see his brother-in-law the Regent).

There is also a page very interesting in the Mémoires of Mme de Boigne, about Louis XVIII's death.

Before Louis XVIII's death, the duchess of Angoulême was more high-ranking than her husband, because she was daughter of a King (Louis XVI), and her husband was just the nephew of the King. Then, like for Marie-Amélie and Louis-Philippe, the duchess of Angoulême always was going before her husband when they were in front of a door (but, slight difference, the door was always completely open for the duke too, because the rank difference was less distant between the duke and the duchess of Angoulême, than between Louis-Philippe and Marie-Amélie : the Angoulême were daughter/nephew of Kings, the Orléans were daughter/only far descendant of Kings).

And this day, all the royal family was assembled in Louis XVIII's bedroom to assist to his death. And the King died. The duchess of Angoulême liked his uncle very much, and was in tears. She gone with her husband to leave the bedroom, and was on the brink of going through the door before her husband, like she always had done before.

But at this moment, she remembered that since a few minutes, her husband was, like her, the son of a King (the new king, Charles X, Louis XVIII's brother), but moreover son of the reigning King, then now more high than her. So she stopped immediately and moved back, and said to her husband, through her tears : "You go first, Monsieur le dauphin!"

Mme de Boigne, seeing this, was amazed, because she could not understand how the duchess of Angoulême, who was completely distressed, could in the same time never forget the minor detail of the Etiquette...

French Royals / Re: King Louis Philippe and his family
« on: November 13, 2009, 05:42:08 AM »
Louis-Philippe's family received the title of Royal Highness before Louis-Philippe's reign.

They were Serene Highness until the 21 september 1824.

The 21 september 1824, King Louis XVIII accorded the title of Royal Highness to Louis-Philippe and to all his children, and to Louis-Philippe's sister Adélaïde.

For Marie-Amélie, she had already the title of Royal Highness, because she was daughter of the King of Two-Sicilies (and in the french court, she was more "high-ranking" than her husband. When they were in front of a door, she was going into the room before her husband, with the double-door completely open, and only after her, he came into, with the double-door just half-open!).

Then, when Louis-Philippe became King, his family had already the title of Royal Highness.

For the other part of the question, Louis-Philippe decided by an ordonnance, the 13 august 1830, that his children would continue to bear the name and the arms of Orléans, the sons with just their usual title (duke of Orléans, duke of Nemours, Prince of Joinville, duke of Aumale and duke of Montpensier), the daughters with the titles of "Princesses Louise, Marie and Clémentine of Orléans".

So they were styled Prince/ess of Orléans, and were never styled Prince/ess of France, Prince/ess of the French.

An exception : the heir, duke of Orléans, had also the title of "Royal Prince of the French" (Prince Royal des Français).

Maybe she had so good relationships with her daughters because herself was not loved at all by her own mother, when she was a child. Henriette of England had already a daughter and wanted a son, so, when she gave birth to Anne-Marie, she asked immediately : "It's a boy?" "No it's a girl", they said. She was furious and answered : "A girl! You can throw her into the river!"

This portrait is by Ferdinand Elle and was sent from Paris in Torino before the wedding, it was the official presentation portrait!
But Anne-Marie's father was not really content of this portrait, because he said that her daugther was more beautiful. He said to the ambassador of Savoy that he would send another portrait, by Mignard, a little later. This one was just "for the meantime".
It's today in Torino, but in a "private collection" (unfortunately).

Yes, like duchesse de Chartres, I think the more beautiful of the sisters were Marie-Louise, she was not "pretty" but so distinguinshed (I must say I don't find the exact word in english, in french the word is "racé", that means we can see on her face that she's got very illustrous birth, full-blood).

But Anne-Marie was nice too.

By the way it's funny to see how Marie-Louise and Anne-Marie had the face of their father, with just a little something of their mother. The sisters were very "mediterranean", because the duke AND the duchess of Orléans were from Medici descent.

For their half-sister Elisabeth-Charlotte, I always found her portraits were charming, I don't find her bad at all. But it's true that her mother wrote : "She has pretty much the same appearance as the Queen of Spain (Marie-Louise), if you remember ; but she's not like her at all concerning the face. She's got a beautiful skin, but all her features are ugly : a ugly nose, a big mouth, drawn eyes and a plat face..."

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Felipe V of Spain and his family
« on: November 12, 2009, 11:03:46 AM »
Louise-Elisabeth's mariage was never annulled, what a strange idea?

She was called "the Queen dowager of Spain" from Luis I's death to her own death in Paris in 1742.

That was also the title written on her grave, in the church of Saint-Sulpice in Paris. Today, his grave and her body don't exist any longer unfortunately, because it was profaned and distroyed during the Revolution, like so many others...

She was baptized the 8 april 1670 in the chapel of the Palais-Royal, in Paris (the parisian residence of the Orléans), by Louis de la Vergne de Tressan, bishop of Vabres, later bishop of Le Mans, first chaplain of Monsieur.

Her godfather and godmother were his first cousin the "Grand Dauphin" (Louis XIV's son) and the first cousin of her father, the "Grande Mademoiselle".

She had very closed relationships with all her children, who all absolutely adored their mother.

For example, the Queen of Spain wrote to her mother from Madrid, 29 march 1703, this words : "Quels moyens y a-t-il de vous connaître sans vous aimer à la folie, pour moi du moins je ne le comprends pas!" ("How would it be possible to know you without loving you madly, that's what I could'nt understand!"

And, because the Queen of Spain wrote more often to Anne-Marie than the duchess of Burgondy did, Marie-Adélaïde wrote : "J'envie la facilité que la reine d'Espagne a pour écrire, mais je vous assure que je ne lui cède en rien dans les sentiments de mon coeur..." ("I envy the fluency of the Queen of Spain for writing, but I swear that I'm not defeated by her, concerning the feelings of my heart...")

A portrait made in Paris at the time of her betrothal :

French Royals / Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« on: November 12, 2009, 06:31:25 AM »

This miniature is a touching souvenir, because the princess gave this portrait of herself to her father-in-law, the duke of Bourbon, after the death of the duke of Enghien. The duke of Bourbon keeped this portrait in his wallet, where it was found after his own (tragic) death.

I have also seen this cropped version portrait of Isabella...have you ever seen the whole one?

I've got this engraving, made after the portrait...

But, as I had observed it, we can find portraits of Marguerite-Violante and Isabella, but for Maria, nothing. Strange, for the mother of the two last dukes...


This is Ranuccio II with his 3 wives - Violante Marguerite of Savoy (1635-1663), Isabella d'Este (1635-1666) and Maria d'Este (1644-1684).  I don't know for sure who is who, but would suspect the one on the right is Maria, who might have been still living at the time the portraits were painted and at any rate was the longest-lasting wife so would very likely have got top billing.   Would the two sisters Isabella and Maria be fair, while the Savoyan was dark - in which case it would be Isabella, Violante Marguerite and Maria? 

Tank you CountessKate!
Well, I knew this picture, but I'm not sure these 3 women are Ranuccio's wives. They're just personifications of the 3 duchies of Ranuccio : Parma Piacenza and Castro...
By the way, that's my opinion, the 3 wives painted together, kneeling in front of Ranuccio's portrait, this would have been of very bad taste!!!
Maybe the 3 duchies have the faces of his 3 wives, but honestly I don't think so...

I would like to find a picture of Maria d'Este (1644-1684).

She was a daughter of Francesco I, duke of Modena, and Maria Farnese.

She married her cousin, Ranuccio II Farnese, duke of Parma (wo was previously married to Marguerite of Savoy and to Isabella d'Este, Maria's sister).

She was the mother of the two last Farnese, dukes of Parma : Francesco et Antonio.

Could someone post a picture of her? I never found it!


The first Beatrice ( Beatrice di Este Modena, duchessa di Modena , Reggio e Ferrara, Principessa de Massa e Carrara)

But if the girl seated at the harpsichord is Marie-Béatrice, who is the other girl in the background? She had no sister, just a stillborn brother...

Strange is that when I first heard of Marie, I supposed that there are no photographs of her at all!

There was a french lady making a presentation, where I firstly heard about her- many years ago-  and there she stated: Marie was never photographed, as she didn't like to be photographed....strange!  ::)

I've got this wonderful pic. It was published in the french newspaper "L'Illustration" of the 7 september 1907, for the annoncement of the engagement (which was made the 31 august). The newspaper sent his photograph Paul Boyer for an interview. The picture was made in a little salon of the townhouse of Marie's father, prince Roland Bonaparte, in Paris.
There is also in this newpaper a very interesting article about the fiancés, with dithyrambic description of George's and Marie's physical apparence...  "Paris has very seldom seen such a beautiful couple..."

French Royals / Re: Emperor Napoleon III and his family
« on: March 10, 2009, 04:43:13 PM »
God you are so good...Can i give you one more off topic on the personal?
Because the whole photo is awful quality the coloring is little slow i finished it but i think i will re-done it...not proud with the one i made

Yes of course you can give me one more, don't hesitate... I'll do my best!

The Hohenzollern / Re: The Grand Ducal family of Oldenburg
« on: March 10, 2009, 04:40:43 PM »

In fact, the poor Friederike had a very very unhappy life when she was a little girl.

She had to endure a veritable martyrdom, because she was suffering from a deformation of the spine, and was forced to spend three years in an hospital, far from her family, during this time she was strapped to an horrible machine, and litteraly streched...
But, this treatment was successfull, and she had a normal life after this!

She was courted by the prince Karl of Hessen-Philippstahl, but did'nt want to marry him (she had a very strong character).

When she had 35, she announced that she was in love with Baron Washington, and determined to marry him! It was incredible, this man was 10 years younger and had been professor of her half-brother Elimar.
Friederike's parents were dead at this time, and her half-brother Grand-Duke Peter liked her very much, so he gave his approval (on the contrary of what he did for Elimar's wedding, in this case he never forgave him).
They left Oldenburg for Pöls (near Graz), and Friederike spent a very happy life playing the role of a farmer's wife.
They had two sons, who had no children.
I don't think she came back in Oldenburg, at least, it's not mentioned in the book I have. It seems that she really broke away with her first life.

French Royals / Re: Emperor Napoleon III and his family
« on: March 10, 2009, 04:19:14 PM »
Great! How did you do that????

With "paint", and above all, with a lot of patience! I've the good luck to draw not too bad, so I try to draw over all those bloody marks on the pictures...  ;-)
If you want to collect royal pictures on the net, you've no choice, half the time, they're marked like this!  >:(

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